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17641Re: The difference between Ahriman thinking and Luciferic thinking

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  • carynlouise24
    Oct 6, 2008
      JM wrote: "On the other hand, consider how Man is blissfully unaware
      of the mysteries of the human physical body! In order to bring it to
      its present state, Divine spiritual beings have been at work on the
      physical body .."

      - The Divine gift of Life. Looking at the evolution of Old Saturn
      which our present day life has evolved or rather manifested from and
      is still evolving :

      Rudolf Steiner Occult Science – an Outline 1963 edition

      With the warmth-condition of Old Saturn there first emerges what we
      call Time. The conditions herein described are in fact not temporal
      at all they belong to the realm which, in spiritual science, may be
      named Duration. All that is said in this book of conditions in the
      Realm of Duration must therefore be understood in this sense.

      It must be borne in mind that any expression implying time-
      relationships is used only for the sake of comparison and
      exposition. In human language even those things which, in a manner
      of speaking, precede time, can only be characterized with words in
      which the time-conception is implicit.

      We must remember that though the first, second and third Saturn
      states did not take place `one after the other' in the present day
      sense of the words, we cannot, after all avoid describing them in
      sequence. Moreover, in spite of their duration or simultaneity, they
      depend on one another, and the dependence is such as to be comparable
      with a succession in time.

      With this reference to the earliest evolutionary states of Saturn,
      light is also thrown on all further questionings as to the `whence'
      of these conditions. In a purely intellectual way it is possible, of
      course, in the case of every given origin, to ask again after its
      origin. If we go on asking questions beyond this point, we are
      departing from the purpose of the original question; we only prolong
      the questioning.

      None the less, if we think it over carefully, we shall recognize that
      all questions of `whence' must come to an end with the Saturn
      conditions we have been describing. For we have here reached a
      sphere where the beings and process are no longer to be accounted for
      by reference to that from which they take their origin, but by what
      they are in themselves. The eventual result of Saturn evolution is
      to be seen in the fact that the seed of man has grown and developed
      to a certain point.

      The middle period of evolution of the Saturn embodiment of the Earth,
      we find a condition consisting essentially of `warmth' alone. `Here
      there is this or that degree of warmth'.

      Saturn was surrounded by an atmosphere consisting of Beings. There
      was a continual interaction between these Beings and the warmth-
      bodies of Saturn. The Beings let down the members of their nature
      into Saturn's physical warmth-bodies. And while in these themselves
      there was no life, the life of the Beings that dwelt in their
      encircling sphere expressed itself in them.

      We have carefully to distinguish between physical body and mineral
      body. On Saturn there was no physical-mineral body. Physical
      corporeality, governed by physical laws – laws express themselves
      solely in warmth-effects. Thus the physical body on Saturn is a
      delicate, tenuous, ethereal body of warmth.

      The warmth-bodies might indeed be compared to mirrors; only it was
      not the above mentioned Beings themselves that were mirrored in them,
      but their life conditions. In Saturn itself once could not have
      discovered anything that was alive, and yet Saturn had a vivifying
      influence on its environment in the heavenly spaces, for it rayed
      back – sent back, as it were – an echo of the life which was sent
      down to it. The whole of Saturn appeared like a mirror of the
      heavenly life.

      The Beings in the surrounding atmosphere of Saturn:

      At such a sublime height at this stage of Saturn evolution.

      The Thrones pour Will forth from their own being into Saturn's
      chaotic undifferentiated substance thus the first condition is
      nothing else but Will; a pure nature of soul.

      Also at a sublime height with a Higher Member, Spirit-Man, Spirit-
      Self, Spirit-Life, Ego, Astral body and the Etheric body being their
      lowest member.

      Their activity began when the Saturn corporeality was still chaotic.
      By the middle of Saturn stage their activity in a certain sense is at
      an end. Before they could become conscious of the reflection of
      their own life, proceeding from the warmth-bodies of Saturn, they
      first had to make these bodies capable of bringing about such a
      reflection. When the outpouring from the Thrones has lasted for a
      certain time, the Kyriotetes unites with the Will, with the result
      that the will, which up to now might be said to have no inherent
      properties of its own, gradually acquires the property of raying
      forth Life, raying it back into the heavenly spaces.

      No physical body or Etheric body the Astral body is their lowest

      When the Saturn bodies have attained the faculty of reflecting life,
      the life which is thus rayed back can become permeated with the
      properties which have their seat in the astral bodies of the
      Dynamis. Thus the life, the reflected life of the Kyriotetes,
      appears as though expressions of emotion, feeling and other soul-
      forces were being hurled out from Saturn into the heavenly spaces.
      The entire Saturn seems like a being that is ensouled, manifesting
      sympathies and antipathies. But the manifestations are not its own;
      they are but the reflection of the soul-activities of the Dynamis.

      No physical body or Etheric body the lowest member is the Astral body
      but a different stage in evolution from the Astral body of the

      When the permeating of the life with the expressions and
      manifestations from the Dynamis has lasted through a certain epoch,
      this manifestation of feeling that is communicated and rayed back
      from Saturn are of a general kind and make Saturn as a whole appear
      as an animate being endowed with soul.

      The Exusiai works in such a way that is seems as though
      manifestations from many single beings are being hurled out into
      cosmic space. The Exusiai divide this life of Saturn into so many
      separate living entities, so that eventually it appears like a
      conglomeration of soul-beings.

      To the supersensible observer Saturn looks like a mulberry, composed
      as it is of ever so many tiny berries. It is composed of the single
      Saturn beings who have no life or soul of their own, but ray back the
      life and soul of the Beings that dwell around them.

      Then at this stage

      Whom have the astral body for their lowest member, but have brought
      it on so far in its evolution that it works like a human I of the
      present time.

      Through them, the Archai, the I looks down from the surrounding
      spaces on to Saturn, and communicates its nature to the single `live'
      beings. Hence something is sent forth from Saturn into the heavenly
      spaces, that resembles the impression made by human personality in
      our present cycle of life.

      These Beings communicate to the particles of the Saturn body a
      semblance of the character of personality. Yet personality itself is
      not there on Saturn, but only its mirrored image – as it were, the
      shell or husk of personality. The Archai have their real personality
      in the surrounding sphere. They cause their own being to be rayed
      back to them from the Saturn bodies, and this very process bestows
      upon the Saturn bodies the fine substantiality which was described
      above as `warmth'.

      Throughout the whole of Saturn there is no inwardness, but the Archai
      behold and recognize the image of their own inwardness, in that it
      streams out to them as warmth from Saturn. While all this is
      happening, the Archai are at the stage at which the human being is to-
      day. They are going through their `human' epoch.

      To see this fact in its true light, we must be ready to conceive that
      a being can be a `human' being without necessarily having the form
      and figure man has to-day. The Archai are `men' upon Saturn. Their
      lowest member is not the physical body but the astral body with the
      Ego. Therefore they cannot express the experiences of their astral
      body in a physical and an etheric body in the same was as can the man
      of to-day. Nevertheless they not only have an I or Ego but are aware
      of it, for the warmth of Saturn, by raying back this Ego, brings it
      home to their consciousness. They are, in effect, `human beings'
      under conditions differing from the earthly.

      In the further course of Saturn evolution, facts of quite another
      kind ensue. Hitherto it was all a reflection of life and feeling
      that were outside; henceforth there is a kind of inner life, now a
      kind of inner life begins. Here and there within the Saturn world a
      life of light begins, now flaring up, now darkening. Flickering
      glimmers of light appear in certain places, and in others something
      occurs like flashes of lightning. The Saturn warmth bodies begin to
      glimmer and glisten, even to radiate light. The attainment of this
      stage affords once more the possibility for certain Beings to unfold
      their activity.

      Although these beings have an astral body of their own, they are
      unable, at this stage of their existence, to stimulate it; they would
      not be able to awake any feeling or sensation if they could not work
      upon the warmth bodies that had reached the stage here indicated.

      This activity exerted by them gives them the possibility of becoming
      aware of their own existence. They cannot say to themselves, `I am'
      but rather, `My environment enables me to be'.

      They have perception, indeed their perceptions consist in the above-
      described light effects on Saturn. These activities are in a certain
      sense their ego. This gives them a peculiar form of consciousness
      that may be designated as picture consciousness.

      It may be conceived as of the nature of man's dream-conscious; only
      we must imagine it far more vivid; far more animated than human
      dreaming. Nor is it a mere meaningless ebb and flow of pictures; the
      dream-pictures of the FIRE SPIRITS bear a real relationship to the
      play-of-light in Saturn.

      In this interplay between the FIRE SPIRITS and the warmth-bodies of
      Saturn, the seeds of the human sense-organs are first implanted in
      the stream of evolution. The organs whereby today man perceives the
      physical world, light up in their first, delicate, ethereal

      Phantoms-of-man, revealing as yet no other outward sign than
      these `light' archetypes of the sense-organs, become perceptible in
      Saturn to the faculty of clairvoyance. Man's sense-organs are thus
      the fruits of the activity of the FIRE SPIRITS. But these are not
      the only Spirits concerned in their creation. Simultaneously with
      the FIRE SPIRITS, other Beings appear upon the scene. Beings so far
      advanced in evolution that they are able to make use of the seeds of
      the sense-organs for witnessing the cosmic processes of Saturn's
      life. These are the Beings whom we may designate-

      Were it not for them, the FIRE SPIRITS could not have the
      consciousness above described, for they gaze upon the processes
      taking place in Saturn with a consciousness that enables them to
      transmit pictures of these processes to the FIRE SPIRITS.

      For themselves they forgo all the advantages they might have through
      witnessing the Saturn events. They renounce every enjoyment it could
      afford them, every delight; they give that all up, so that the FIRE
      SPIRITS may have it.

      These events are followed by a new period in Saturn's existence. To
      the play of light another thing is added. Within the Saturn body
      something like sensations of taste begin to go surging to and fro.
      Sweet, bitter, sour etc. are perceived at diverse places in the
      interior of Saturn; while in the heavenly spaces without, all this
      gives the impression of sound, of a kind of music.

      And in these processes, once more, Beings find it possible to unfold
      their activity on Saturn-

      They begin to interact with the surging, eddying forces of taste in
      the interior of Saturn, and by this means their etheric or life-body
      develops an activity that we may designate as a kind of metabolism.

      They bring life into the interior of Saturn; processes of nutrition
      and excretion begin to take place there. Not that the Beings
      themselves bring about these processes directly; the processes arise
      indirectly, through their activity.

      And now this inner life makes it possible for yet other Beings to
      enter the heavenly body-

      These Beings transmit to the SONS OF LIFE a kind of dim
      consciousness, still more dull and dim than the dream-consciousness
      of man to-day. It is like the consciousness that belongs to man in
      dreamless sleep, which is of such a low degree that in a manner of
      speaking it does not `come to consciousness' at all; man remains
      unaware of it. Yet it is there.

      It differs from day-consciousness in kind as well as in degree. Our
      present day plants possess this `dreamless sleep' consciousness. It
      affords no perceptions of an outer world in the human sense of the
      word, but it regulates the life-processes and brings them into
      harmony with those in the outer Universe.

      The SONS OF LIFE cannot perceive the regulation, but the CHERUBIM
      perceive it. They therefore are the real regulators.

      All this life goes on in what we have described as the phantoms-of-
      man. These therefore appear to the spiritualized eye as though they
      were alive; and yet their life is but a semblance of life. It is the
      life of the SONS OF LIFE who as it were make use of these phantoms in
      order to live out their own life.

      Let us now direct our attention to these phantoms-of-man with their
      semblance of life.

      During the period with which we have been dealing, they are of ever-
      changing form. Now they will resemble one shape, now another. In
      the further course of evolution the shapes become more definite, and
      sometimes even last for a while. This is due to their being now
      permeated by the influences of the Spirits who were at work in the
      very beginning of Saturn evolution, namely the SPIRITS OF WILL – THE

      As a result, the phantoms-of-man appears to be endowed with the
      simplest, darkest form of consciousness. We must conceive it as
      being yet more dim than that of dreamless sleep. Under present-day
      conditions, the minerals possess this consciousness. It brings the
      inner nature of the object or being into unison with the physical
      external world.

      On Saturn it is the SPIRITS OF WILL who regulate this unison, with
      the result that man appears like an impress of the Saturn life
      itself. What the Saturn life is on a large scale, man is now at this
      stage on a small scale.

      And this the first seed is given of what is still only in the
      seedling stage even in the man of to-day, namely SPIRIT-MAN (ATMA).

      Inwardly – within Saturn – this dull human will manifests itself to
      the faculty of supersensible perception by effects which may be
      compared to `smells'.

      Outwardly – out into the heavenly spaces – there is a manifestation
      as of personality, a personality, however, that is not guided by an
      inner I, but regulated from outside like a machine. It is the
      SPIRITS OF WILL who regulate it.

      Surveying the above, we see that from the middle condition onward the
      stages of Saturn's evolution could be characterized by comparing
      their effects with sense-impressions of the present time.

      Thus it was possible to say: Saturn evolution manifests as warmth;
      afterwards a play-of-light is added, then a play of taste and sound,
      until at length there appears what reveals itself inwardly – to the
      interior of Saturn – in sensations of smell, and outwardly like a
      human I working in a machine-like way.

      How is it then with the manifestations of Saturn evolution before the
      state of warmth is reached?

      They cannot be compared with anything whatsoever that is accessible
      to outer sensation. The warmth-condition is preceded by one which
      man to-day experiences only in his inner being.

      When he gives himself up to ideas which he forms for himself within
      his soul without the occasion being thrust upon him by any impression
      from outside, then he has within him something which is accessible,
      as a perception, to higher spiritual sight alone.

      The warmth-condition of Saturn is in effect preceded by
      manifestations which exist only for one who can perceive the
      supersensible. Three such conditions may be named:

      Pure warmth-of-soul / not outwardly perceptible.
      Purely spiritual light / which outwardly is darkness.
      And spiritual being which is complete in itself, needing the presence
      of no outer being to make it conscious of itself.

      Pure inner warmth accompanies the appearance on Saturn of the SPIRITS

      Pure spiritual light that of the SPIRITS OF WISDOM.

      Whilst pure inward being is connected with the first outpouring of
      the SPIRITS OF WILL.

      Thus with the appearance of the Saturn warmth, our evolution first
      emerges from an inner life of pure spirituality, to an existence
      manifesting outwardly.

      The SPIRITS OF WILL are working throughout all the conditions.
      Although, no hard and fast line can be drawn between the activities
      of the several groups of Beings. When it is said: first the SPIRITS
      OF WILL are active, then the SPIRITS OF WISDOM, and so forth – it
      does not mean that they are active at that stage only.

      They work throughout the whole of Saturn evolution; their working is,
      however, most readily observed in the times thus indicated, when the
      several Beings have it as were their periods of leadership.

      The Spiritual Beings themselves undergo evolution in the process.
      The SPIRITS OF WISDOM, for example, after having received their life
      rayed back to them from Saturn, are at another stage than before.
      Their own faculties have advanced to a higher level, and there
      follows for them something not unlike what sleep is for the human

      Periods of activity on Saturn are followed by times when they are
      living as it were in other worlds; and then their activity is turned
      away from Saturn. Consequently, supersensible perception sees in the
      Saturn evolution here described, a rise and fall.

      The former lasts until the state of warmth has developed and
      matured. Then, with a play of light, a waning process begins. And
      when through the working of the SPIRITS OF WILL the phantoms-of-man
      have taken shape and form, the spiritual Beings have by then all
      gradually withdrawn.

      Saturn evolution dies away into itself, and disappears as such. A
      kind of interval of rest begins. The germs or seed of man passes as
      it were into a state of dissolution; not that it vanishes entirely –
      rather is it in the condition of a plant seed which, resting in the
      Earth will ripen by and by into a new plant.

      So does the seed of man rest in the bosom of the world, there to
      await a new awakening. And when the time for its awakening has come,
      then the Spiritual Beings have on their part acquired – under
      different conditions – the faculties to work still further upon the
      seed of man.

      The SPIRITS OF WISDOM have in their etheric body attained the power
      to do more than enjoy the reflection of Life – as on Saturn; they are
      now able to pour Life out of themselves, endowing other beings with

      The SPIRITS OF MOVEMENT are now as far advanced as were the SPIRITS
      OF WISDOM upon Saturn. Their lowest member upon Saturn was the
      astral body; henceforth they have in addition an etheric or life body
      of their own. And the other Spiritual Beings too have reached a
      further stage in evolution.

      Hence in the future evolution of the seed of man these Spiritual
      Beings can all work in quite another way than they did upon Saturn.

      Named the Sun Evolution, the Moon Evolution, our present Evolution
      towards the Jupiter Evolution, the Venus Evolution and the Vulcan


      --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "jmn36210" <jmnguyen@...> wrote:
      > Steve wrote: "It is quite remarkable indeed that in the short
      span of
      > five years
      > time, Rudolf Steiner had to revise his earliest calculations of the
      > earth epochs to those that more accurately depict the facts of an
      > earth evolution numbered in thousands of years vs. millions of
      > years. Thus, if you compare GA53 and GA93a with GA123, the
      > difference based on a more exact clairvoyance is clearly in
      > And the span of time for recognizing this difference is 1905 to
      > <snip> It is all scientific supposition, based on arrogance and
      > and the extreme desire to control public opinion and the future of
      > world."
      > --------------------------------------------------------------------
      > ----------- It's a shame that GA 123 [The Gospel of Matthew]
      > not online yet... Please jump to lecture eight [September 8,
      1910] of
      > your copy of GA 123! I'm translating from the German: "On the
      > hand, consider how Man is blissfully unaware of the mysteries of the
      > human physical body! In order to bring it to its present state,
      > spiritual beings have been at work on the physical body --- not
      only for
      > millions of years, but for millions of millions of years [...nicht
      > durch Jahrmillionen, sondern Jahrmillionen mal Millionen...]."
      > means thousands of billions of years... [1 billion =
      1,000,000,000] As
      > you can see, in GA 123 precisely, in that very year 1910, Rudolf
      > was saying that the cosmic history of the human physical body
      > over a period of time much greater than the mere 4.6 billion years
      > our Solar system or even the age of the entire universe according
      > the estimates of modern science--- no less! And here's another
      > example. Sorry, I don't have time to go into details. In the
      > improvised lectures he held for the people working at the
      > Rudolf Steiner once talked about *the elephant* and the forces of
      > reproduction. As far as the Lunar forces of reproduction are
      > [the maternal forces or feminine aspect of reproduction], Rudolf
      > very clearly stated that they were passed down through generations
      > inherited from a time prior to the Moon's separation from the
      Earth ---
      > and he expressly specified [twice over] that *millions of years*
      > [Jahrmillionen] were involved! Isn't it interesting to note that
      > Steiner gave this lecture in the year 1922? [September 27, 1922 - GA
      > 347. It's not online...] Never mind the miscalculations, the
      > arrogance and pride, the vanity, and the extreme desire to control
      > public opinion, of modern science now... With all due respect -
      > about minding *your own* for a change? Jean-Marc
      > =========================================================
      > --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "Stephen Hale" <sardisian01@>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > --- In anthroposophy@yahoogroups.com, "jmn36210" jmnguyen@ wrote:
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Steve wrote: "Mercury and Venus were born out of the Sun when It
      > > was
      > > > enabled to
      > > > turn Its gaze back toward the Earth about fifty thousand years
      > > > This means that these two inner planets can hardly be a part of
      > > > is said to be a universe that is four billion years old. This,
      > > > course, is modern astronomy and astrophysics talking.
      > > > Is that an oxymoron? <snip>
      > > > Now, when this occurred, in terms of the Moon's separation after
      > > > passing over the mineral element to the earth, it allowed the
      Sun to
      > > > return toward earth evolution, bearing the forces of the other
      > > > Elohim. And at this point, Venus and Mercury popped out of the
      > > > the two sacred inner planets."
      > > > ----------------------------------------------------------------
      > > ----\
      > > > ---------------- "Mercury and Venus were born... about fifty
      > > > thousand years ago"? This, of course, is modern spiritual
      > > > Steve speaking. Steve! I'm translating from the German [GA 53 -
      > > > March 9, 1905] --- Rudolf Steiner is talking about the Moon's
      > > > separation: "The complete separation did not happen all at once
      > > (...)
      > > > All proceeded slowly and gradually, during millions and
      millions of
      > > > years." Next, I'm quoting from the RS Archive: "The force
      > > enters
      > > > into the form with ever increasing density and hence life in the
      > > > Lemurian Age had to receive a new impulse, which was brought
      > > by
      > > > the turning around of the Earth Globe. The axis of the Earth was
      > > > gradually turned. Previously there was a tropical climate at the
      > > North
      > > > Pole; later through the turning around of the Earth axis the
      > > tropical
      > > > climate came into the middle region. This change proceeded with
      > > > comparative rapidity but lasted nevertheless for perhaps four
      > > million
      > > > years. [Rudolf Steiner later revised his time scale of earthly
      > > evolution
      > > > to much shorter periods. Ed.] ***The Lemurian Age was twenty-two
      > > million
      > > > years ago.*** Four million years were needed by the Moon Pitris
      > > order
      > > > to turn the axis of the Earth." [GA 93a - October 25, 1905] 1.
      > > > sentence in blue does *not* appear in the original German text.
      > > 2. The
      > > > sentence ***in red*** was surreptitiously deleted from the
      > > > translation... Jean-Marc
      > >
      > >
      > > It is quite remarkable indeed that in the short span of five years
      > > time, Rudolf Steiner had to revise his earliest calculations of
      > > earth epochs to those that more accurately depict the facts of an
      > > earth evolution numbered in thousands of years vs. millions of
      > > years. Thus, if you compare GA53 and GA93a with GA123, the
      > > difference based on a more exact clairvoyance is clearly in
      > > And the span of time for recognizing this difference is 1905 to
      > >
      > >
      > > "The Godhead was departed around 11,547 BC., when the downward
      > > tending phase began from Atlantis to the earth as we know it
      > >
      > > The Eighth Sphere was formed when the Moon passed over the mineral
      > > kingdom to the earth about fifty thousand years ago. The earth as
      > > know it is only 50,000 years old. All the so-called scientific
      > > calculations relative to an earth that is two billion years old,
      > > geologically, and 4.6 billions years old, from an astronomical
      > > standpoint, is a miscalculation of modern science designed to
      > > the materialistic view of the world and man. Our Moon became a
      > > hardened rock, a vulcanized sphere, when the mineral kingdom
      > > over to the earth. This was done in order to enable the moon-earth
      > > configuration to become the earth-moon configration, wherein the
      > > separated in order to revolve around the earth as its natural
      > > satellite. This was needed in order to create the lunar year of 12
      > > months, and the cycle of the seasons. Otherwise, mankind would
      > > had to endure evolving on an earth still tied to the Moon; an
      > > insurmountable experience of mass and gravity of the absolute
      > >
      > > It seems that all professional astronomers, whether academic or
      > > practicing, all adhere to the same absolute conviction that the
      > > universe is completely spatial and moving, and can be perfectly
      > > calculated according to our terrestrial reference points. In other
      > > words, a mechanical-mathematical universe based entirely on
      > > parameters. And here is where you have an excellent example of
      > > landers trying to discern the substance of the great cosmos from
      > > ground.
      > >
      > > Carbon-dating is only accurate based on instrumentation capable of
      > > measuring a relatively solid, mineral-based sphere. Therefore, in
      > > order for the world to be as old as the geologists,
      > > and anthropologists say it is, then a fundamental theory must
      > > for the origination of the earth. And it is known as the Kant-
      > > Laplace, or nebular hypothesis, theory. The only truly accurate
      > > measurement of age, based on carbon dating methods, concerns the
      > > findings of archaeological research. And this is because
      > > is concerned with uncovering the artifacts that pertain to early
      > > mankind, and its efforts to exist on a solid mineral plane of
      > > These findings are accurate based on the methods and instruments
      > > capable of measuring the essential carbonic nature of an earth
      > > has become mineralized. It is based on this initial hypothesis
      > > Laplace) that geology, paleontology, anthropology, and most
      > > of all, Astronomy, fall victim to the mainfold errors that have
      > > foisted on a learned mankind that seeks truth from its science and
      > > scientists.
      > >
      > > The findings of science are accurate relative to what the observer
      > > can observe and then measure with his instruments for relative
      > > dating; the basis for dating events based on time assuming a solid
      > > crust condition of the earth. Now, geological science says the
      > > is 1.8 billion years old, encompassing the protozoic (primordial)
      > > to the present post-cenozoic age, that began ten thousand years
      > > with the recession of the great ice age. Prior to that recession,
      > > which coincides with the great flood, or deluge, nothing is known
      > > from any natural scientifc standpoint. It is all scientific
      > > supposition, based on arrogance and pride, and the extreme desire
      > > control public opinion and the future of the world.
      > >
      > > Why would the earth need to be older than 50,000 years when it is
      > > goal of self-remembering that is important? Does subscription to
      > > vanity of science need to occur first in order to achieve this
      > > It is science that is vainly seeking to remember itself, and it is
      > > today's science that has most forgotten itself. Why should we
      > > carbon dating? Doesn't it all come down to an initial belief; the
      > > called "Big Bang" of primordial origination? And herein, it is
      > > that Einstein jumped for joy when he heard this proclaimed at a
      > > lecture he attended in 1936. He is quoted as saying: "That's
      > > it"! "Now my path of realizing quantitative physics is assured of
      > > success!"
      > >
      > > So, this extract from "Quaternium Organum" has been patiently
      > > for you, Jean-Marc; with all due respect.
      > >
      > > Steve
      > >
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