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RE: [anosmia] Re: Flixonase Nasule update

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  • O'Hare, Mick (RBI-UK)
    Viral anosmia is not caused by chronic inflammation. The anosmia is caused because the virus destroys the olfactory cells. You can t smell because there are no
    Message 1 of 17 , Dec 4, 2006
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      Viral anosmia is not caused by chronic inflammation. The anosmia is caused because the virus destroys the olfactory cells. You can't smell because there are no olfactory cells remaining, not because of inflammatory blockage. Steroids will not cure viral anosmia but the will cure inflammation. The two shouldn't be confused, they are separate and distinct pathologies.

      Mick

      > ----------
      > From: anosmia@yahoogroups.com on behalf of patty101@...
      > Reply To: anosmia@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Sunday, December 3, 2006 7:00 PM
      > To: anosmia@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [anosmia] Re: Flixonase Nasule update
      >
      >
      > In a message dated 12/2/2006 4:02:45 PM Eastern Standard Time,
      > adrian@... writes:
      >
      > <<<It responds to Prednisolone.....The Flixonase is a
      > topical steroid which obviously suppresses the inflamation....f I do not use
      > it 3 times
      > per day....I lose my sense of smell in a matter of days. So as it is it is
      > an
      > indefinite treatment....>>>
      >
      >
      > So it seems that we who have viral induced anosmia are suffering from
      > chronic inflamation. Thats why the condition responds to steroid type medication.
      > Iv always thought that was the case with my own anosmia. Wouldnt it be > wonderful if the doctors could come up with a safer way to treat....or better
      > still..CURE our chronic inflamation? I mean rather than drugs that can be so
      > dangerous.
      > Patty
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
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    • patty101@aol.com
      In a message dated 12/4/2006 5:40:24 AM Eastern Standard Time, mick.o hare@rbi.co.uk writes:
      Message 2 of 17 , Dec 4, 2006
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        In a message dated 12/4/2006 5:40:24 AM Eastern Standard Time,
        mick.o'hare@... writes:

        <<<Viral anosmia is not caused by chronic inflammation. The anosmia is
        caused because the virus destroys the olfactory cells. You can't smell because
        there are no olfactory cells remaining, not because of inflammatory blockage.>>>

        Who really knows? I dont think it does cause anosmia. At least the theory is
        that it is caused by a virus. I dont think anything has been absolutely
        proven. But it seems to me that many people here on this list have reported
        regaining some smell while they are on steroids...and then losing it again when
        they go off them. Since the steroids are anti-inflammatory, wouldnt there be
        at least the *possibility* that inflammation plays a role in the recovery (but
        not the cause) of anosmia, since steroids sometimes help the condition. Of
        course, you know my opinion. Id rather have anosmia than take steroids (or
        theophylline..which regardless of your opinion has proven dangerous side
        effects that you can read about in any medical journal) Im not convinced that
        anosmia and inflammation are separate and distinct pathologies and not connected
        to each other. When I wrote that I thought it may be connected, I certainly
        didnt mean it as a fact...but meant that its only my theory based on what I
        have experienced and read. Of course unfortunately, most of what we hear about
        anosmia....even from the so-called experts (including Henkin) is just theory
        since there has been little research into the cause or cure for anosmia.
        Most of what we hear is anecdotal. And none of the so-called experts are coming
        across with statitistics...only vague and nebulous reports.

        Patty






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      • Adrian Cooper
        Hello Patty, I take your points certainly. The main distinction I was drawing is between allergy and viral indicated anosmia. I tend to focus on the allergy
        Message 3 of 17 , Dec 5, 2006
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          Hello Patty,

          I take your points certainly.

          The main distinction I was drawing is between allergy and viral indicated
          anosmia.

          I tend to focus on the allergy side because that is my own affliction, but I
          od of course like to keep a more general persepctive as well.

          Perhaps Mick or a viral anosmic could confirm this, but it is my
          understanding that viral anosmia is caused by destruction of cells whereas
          allergy indicated is due to inflammation. This being the case they require
          two very different approaches to treatment.

          Prednisone/Prednisolone is an anti-inflammatory corticosteroid, and the fact
          that it acts upon the anosmi symtoms, quite dramatically, indicated that
          inflamation must be the primary symptom.

          I say symptom because of course steroids are still not dealing with the
          underlying condition.

          Best regards,

          Adrian.






          >
          > In a message dated 12/4/2006 5:40:24 AM Eastern Standard Time,
          > mick.o'hare@... writes:
          >
          > <<<Viral anosmia is not caused by chronic inflammation. The anosmia is
          > caused because the virus destroys the olfactory cells. You can't smell
          > because
          > there are no olfactory cells remaining, not because of inflammatory
          > blockage.>>>
          >
          > Who really knows? I dont think it does cause anosmia. At least the theory
          > is
          > that it is caused by a virus. I dont think anything has been absolutely
          > proven. But it seems to me that many people here on this list have
          > reported
          > regaining some smell while they are on steroids...and then losing it
          > again when
          > they go off them. Since the steroids are anti-inflammatory, wouldnt
          > there be
          > at least the *possibility* that inflammation plays a role in the recovery
          > (but
          > not the cause) of anosmia, since steroids sometimes help the condition.
          > Of
          > course, you know my opinion. Id rather have anosmia than take steroids
          > (or
          > theophylline..which regardless of your opinion has proven dangerous side
          > effects that you can read about in any medical journal) Im not convinced
          > that
          > anosmia and inflammation are separate and distinct pathologies and not
          > connected
          > to each other. When I wrote that I thought it may be connected, I
          > certainly
          > didnt mean it as a fact...but meant that its only my theory based on what
          > I
          > have experienced and read. Of course unfortunately, most of what we hear
          > about
          > anosmia....even from the so-called experts (including Henkin) is just
          > theory
          > since there has been little research into the cause or cure for anosmia.
          > Most of what we hear is anecdotal. And none of the so-called experts are
          > coming
          > across with statitistics...only vague and nebulous reports.
          >
          > Patty
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
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        • O'Hare, Mick (RBI-UK)
          Patty ... Yes it has, viruses cause anosmia. Electron microscopic inspections of olfactory epithelia show that after an attack the number of living olfactory
          Message 4 of 17 , Dec 5, 2006
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            Patty

            > <<<Viral anosmia is not caused by chronic inflammation. The anosmia is > caused because the virus destroys the olfactory cells. You can't smell because
            > there are no olfactory cells remaining, not because of inflammatory blockage.>>>
            >
            > Who really knows? I dont think it does cause anosmia. At least the theory is
            > that it is caused by a virus. I dont think anything has been absolutely > proven.
            >
            Yes it has, viruses cause anosmia. Electron microscopic inspections of olfactory epithelia show that after an attack the number of living olfactory cells is hugely reduced as are the cilia that project through the mucosa.



            > But it seems to me that many people here on this list have reported
            > regaining some smell while they are on steroids...and then losing it again when
            > they go off them. Since the steroids are anti-inflammatory, wouldnt there be
            > at least the *possibility* that inflammation plays a role in the recovery (but
            > not the cause) of anosmia,
            >
            Of course, but not from viral anosmia.


            > since steroids sometimes help the condition.
            >
            They do help, but only inflammatory anosmia, not viral anosmia.



            > Of
            > course, you know my opinion. Id rather have anosmia than take steroids (or
            > theophylline..which regardless of your opinion has proven dangerous side > effects that you can read about in any medical journal)
            >
            As do steroids, far nastier than theophylline (but both relatively safe if taken under careful supervision)


            > Im not convinced that
            > anosmia and inflammation are separate and distinct pathologies
            >
            No, no, no, you're getting the wrong end of the stick Patty. Viral anosmia and inflammatory anosmia are two distinct pathologies. Both viruses and inflammation cause anosmia, but steroids only treat inflammatory anosmia, they are no use in viral anosmia cases.



            > and not connected
            > to each other. When I wrote that I thought it may be connected, I certainly
            > didnt mean it as a fact...but meant that its only my theory based on what I
            > have experienced and read. Of course unfortunately, most of what we hear about
            > anosmia....even from the so-called experts (including Henkin) is just theory
            > since there has been little research into the cause or cure for anosmia. >
            That's true. But even so inflammatory anosmia (such as that experienced by Karl) and viral anosmia (like mine) are two very different things (as, for example, is head injury anosmia).

            Mick



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          • rvtlinda@aol.com
            My understanding of cause of viral anosmia is that, when the protein in the virus is the same as the protein in the nasal epithelial cells, the virus is able
            Message 5 of 17 , Dec 5, 2006
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              My understanding of cause of viral anosmia is that, when the protein in the
              virus is the same as the protein in the nasal epithelial cells, the virus is
              able to invade and destroy the epthelial cells. I think that Dr. Henkin
              attempts to regenerate the cells in the epithelium with the use of Theophylline,
              using Prednisone to wipe out any existing inflammation. Correct me if I'm
              wrong.
              Linda.


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            • O'Hare, Mick (RBI-UK)
              That s right, although usually by the time one visits Dr Henkin any initial inflammation from the infection is long gone. If it is concurrent then both
              Message 6 of 17 , Dec 5, 2006
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                That's right, although usually by the time one visits Dr Henkin any initial inflammation from the infection is long gone. If it is concurrent then both pathologies need to be treated. Nonetheless, both are distinct and separate problems. The steroid won't cure the viral damage and the theophylline won't cure the inflammation.

                Full info on how the treatment (for viral anosmia) works is at http://personal.ecu.edu/wuenschk/ViralMick.htm

                Mick


                > ----------
                > From: anosmia@yahoogroups.com on behalf of rvtlinda@...
                > Reply To: anosmia@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Tuesday, December 5, 2006 1:27 PM
                > To: anosmia@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: Re: [anosmia] Re: Flixonase Nasule update
                >
                > My understanding of cause of viral anosmia is that, when the protein in the
                > virus is the same as the protein in the nasal epithelial cells, the virus is
                > able to invade and destroy the epthelial cells. I think that Dr. Henkin > attempts to regenerate the cells in the epithelium with the use of Theophylline,
                > using Prednisone to wipe out any existing inflammation. Correct me if I'm
                > wrong.
                > Linda.
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                >
                > Community email addresses:
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                > List owner: anosmia-owner@onelist.com
                >
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                > http://www.onelist.com/community/anosmia
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >


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              • patty101@aol.com
                In a message dated 12/5/2006 5:19:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, mick.o hare@rbi.co.uk writes: Yes of course they do. It
                Message 7 of 17 , Dec 5, 2006
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                  In a message dated 12/5/2006 5:19:39 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                  mick.o'hare@... writes:

                  <<<Yes it has, viruses cause anosmia.>>>

                  Yes of course they do. It seems that many things cause anosmia....including
                  trauma, certain antibiotics, certain cold remedies, allergies, etc. My only
                  point being that there is not aways a clear reason for anosmia. For example, I
                  have what I thought was viral anosmia since it began with a serious
                  bronchitis and was given zithromax. Did the virus cause the anosmia...or did the
                  zithromax cause it? At the same time, I suffer from allergies and sinus
                  infections. They cause me to have very enlarged turbinates. The doctor says my nose
                  interior is red. (thank goodness the outside is not red) So what do you
                  suppose has caused my anosmia? I havent had a doctor show any interest at all. I
                  have DXed myself from information Iv obtained right here. Because they dont
                  take it seriously...they dont know anything about it. And it seems to me that
                  the so-called experts who are treating anosmia are going by trial and
                  error...since there are no really good studies. Just some case histories....some
                  successful...but more it seems unsuccessful. The point is that nothing is
                  definate. The research just is not there.



                  <<since steroids sometimes help the condition...........
                  They do help, but only inflammatory anosmia, not viral anosmia.>>

                  But...but...then why then Dr Henkin treat your viral anosmia with steroids?

                  <<As do steroids, far nastier than theophylline (but both relatively safe if
                  taken under careful supervision)>>

                  This is true. However, theophylline is a drug that can have very serious
                  side effects. Coffee and tea may have the same chemical but its minute compared
                  to the drug theophylline. That is why people taking theophylline have to
                  have frequent blood tests to check the levels. Im sorry, but I think that tell
                  people that theophylline is completely safe...or almost completely safe is to
                  ignore the the truth about it that you can find anyplace...all over the
                  internet for one. Its irresponsible in my opinion to say these things to people
                  who are looking for answers because many people will trust what they hear
                  people say without seeking information themselves.

                  <<<No, no, no, you're getting the wrong end of the stick Patty>>>

                  Is this a British colloquialism? I dont understand it. We have a saying
                  here in the US that is similar...but its not very nice.

                  Patty




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                • patty101@aol.com
                  In a message dated 12/5/2006 4:30:07 AM Eastern Standard Time, adrian@cooper.net writes:
                  Message 8 of 17 , Dec 5, 2006
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                    In a message dated 12/5/2006 4:30:07 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                    adrian@... writes:

                    <<but it is my
                    understanding that viral anosmia is caused by destruction of cells whereas
                    allergy indicated is due to inflammation. This being the case they require
                    two very different approaches to treatment.>>



                    Adrian...do you suppose that if you could get enough non-steroidal
                    anti-inflamatories, your anosmia would clear up? But then of course, there is still
                    the underlying condition...the allergies. Do you ever wonder...as I do...why so
                    many people have allergies these days? It was not so when I was a child.
                    Patty


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                  • patty101@aol.com
                    In a message dated 12/5/2006 5:19:39 AM Eastern Standard Time, mick.o hare@rbi.co.uk writes:
                    Message 9 of 17 , Dec 5, 2006
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                      In a message dated 12/5/2006 5:19:39 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                      mick.o'hare@... writes:

                      <<Electron microscopic inspections of olfactory epithelia show that after an
                      attack the number of living olfactory cells is hugely reduced as are the
                      cilia that project through the mucosa.>>>



                      Mick...have there been any studies that show there is not damage to the
                      olfactory epithelia in the case of inflammatory anosmia? By the way...perhaps its
                      a matter of semantics...but I have not heard reference to "inflammatory
                      anosmia". Although I have heard it called allergy anosmia.
                      Patty


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • O'Hare, Mick (RBI-UK)
                      ... Point taken BUT where it can be diagnosed, viral and inflammatory anosmia are two separate things, and both should be treated separately. ... He didn t, he
                      Message 10 of 17 , Dec 6, 2006
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                        >
                        > In a message dated 12/5/2006 5:19:39 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                        > mick.o'hare@... writes:
                        >
                        > <<<Yes it has, viruses cause anosmia.>>>
                        >
                        > Yes of course they do. It seems that many things cause anosmia....including
                        > trauma, certain antibiotics, certain cold remedies, allergies, etc. My only
                        > point being that there is not aways a clear reason for anosmia. For example, I
                        > have what I thought was viral anosmia since it began with a serious
                        > bronchitis and was given zithromax. Did the virus cause the anosmia...or did the
                        > zithromax cause it? At the same time, I suffer from allergies and sinus > infections. They cause me to have very enlarged turbinates. The doctor says my nose
                        > interior is red. (thank goodness the outside is not red) So what do you > suppose has caused my anosmia? I havent had a doctor show any interest at all. I
                        > have DXed myself from information Iv obtained right here. Because they dont
                        > take it seriously...they dont know anything about it. And it seems to me that
                        > the so-called experts who are treating anosmia are going by trial and
                        > error...since there are no really good studies. Just some case histories....some
                        > successful...but more it seems unsuccessful. The point is that nothing is
                        > definate. The research just is not there.
                        >
                        Point taken BUT where it can be diagnosed, viral and inflammatory anosmia are two separate things, and both should be treated separately.



                        > <<since steroids sometimes help the condition...........
                        > They do help, but only inflammatory anosmia, not viral anosmia.>>
                        >
                        > But...but...then why then Dr Henkin treat your viral anosmia with steroids?
                        >
                        He didn't, he used theophylline. What he did use steroids for (in a very short 48-hour course) was to kick-start cell growth in the epithelium and serus glands (but even so these cells by themselves would not work without the theophylline). He wasn't reducing inflammation with the steroids. My long-term treatment has been solely with theophylline - the 48 hours of steroids were taken back in 2000. They were also a different type of steroid: dexamethasone, not prednisone. And only 24mg in total.




                        > <<As do steroids, far nastier than theophylline (but both relatively safe if
                        > taken under careful supervision)>>
                        >
                        > This is true. However, theophylline is a drug that can have very serious
                        > side effects. Coffee and tea may have the same chemical but its minute compared
                        > to the drug theophylline. That is why people taking theophylline have to > have frequent blood tests to check the levels. Im sorry, but I think that tell
                        > people that theophylline is completely safe...or almost completely safe >
                        Relatively safe is what I said, that's a very contextual sentence. Just as a beer is relatively safe, but consuming alcohol per se is potentially dangerous.


                        > is to
                        > ignore the the truth about it that you can find anyplace...all over the > internet for one. Its irresponsible in my opinion to say these things to people
                        > who are looking for answers because many people will trust what they hear
                        > people say without seeking information themselves.
                        >
                        Taken in large amounts, theophylline is of course dangerous. But people on a standard dose monitored by a GP really need not fear it (more than they would fear any other prescription drug), they should just be sensible and watch out for any side-effects. There have been no recorded deaths from theophylline in Britain since 1995 (first date I can locate for which records are available). However deaths from aspirin, paracetamol and alcohol are large by comparison. I'm just putting theophylline into context.



                        > <<<No, no, no, you're getting the wrong end of the stick Patty>>>
                        >
                        > Is this a British colloquialism? I dont understand it. We have a saying >
                        > here in the US that is similar...but its not very nice.
                        >
                        Noooo, it means you are (or were) misunderstanding what I'm saying.

                        What does the US expression mean? Is it lewd??? ;-)))

                        M
                        >
                        >


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                      • O'Hare, Mick (RBI-UK)
                        ... I was just covering anything that causes inflammation and causes the nose to be blocked. Allergies do this but are not the only cause (polyps, long-term
                        Message 11 of 17 , Dec 6, 2006
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                          > Mick...have there been any studies that show there is not damage to the > olfactory epithelia in the case of inflammatory anosmia? By the way...perhaps its
                          > a matter of semantics...but I have not heard reference to "inflammatory > anosmia". Although I have heard it called allergy anosmia.
                          >
                          I was just covering anything that causes inflammation and causes the nose to be blocked. Allergies do this but are not the only cause (polyps, long-term bacterial infection, sinus blockage, etc).

                          In the case of inflammatory anosmias the epithelium can be seen to be intact (a good example is Karl, his epithelium works just fine once the inflammation is cleared by his steroidal injections).

                          Mick




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                        • Adrian Cooper
                          Hello Patty, Steroids are neither a cure or a long-term solution ideally and therefore steroids alone can never cure the underlying cause which I assume is
                          Message 12 of 17 , Dec 6, 2006
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                            Hello Patty,

                            Steroids are neither a cure or a long-term solution ideally and therefore
                            steroids alone can never cure the underlying cause which I assume is allergy
                            indicated.

                            That said I do take antihistamines every day and they keep my allergic
                            rihinitis aka hay fever under control, so they are certainly have some
                            effect on my allergies.

                            I have suffered from allergies all my life including chronic asthma, and
                            mine is perennial rhintis so I am allergic to some things all year around. I
                            know I am allergic to fungus spores for example.

                            Allergies these days are increasing as with obesity, diabetes, various
                            cancers and much more due to the "modern" lifestyle which is extremely
                            destructive.

                            If you want the truth about food I strongly suggest you read the book called
                            "The China Study" by Dr. Colin Campbell. It is based upon 20 years of
                            extensive research involving 3 international Universities. Dr. Campbell is
                            known as "the Einstein of nutrition".

                            Anyone who eats meat or dairy products after knowing the truth is committing
                            suicide plain and simple.

                            I am a strict Vegan out of an absolute respect for all life.

                            Best regards,

                            Adrian.



                            >
                            > In a message dated 12/5/2006 4:30:07 AM Eastern Standard Time,
                            > adrian@... writes:
                            >
                            > <<but it is my
                            > understanding that viral anosmia is caused by destruction of cells
                            > whereas
                            > allergy indicated is due to inflammation. This being the case they
                            > require
                            > two very different approaches to treatment.>>
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Adrian...do you suppose that if you could get enough non-steroidal
                            > anti-inflamatories, your anosmia would clear up? But then of course, there
                            > is still
                            > the underlying condition...the allergies. Do you ever wonder...as I
                            > do...why so
                            > many people have allergies these days? It was not so when I was a child.
                            > Patty
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Community email addresses:
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