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Re: [Animal Rights Debate Club] Weebs, why do you lie about thalidomide?

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  • Colleen Klaum
    Do you have any facts to back this up Ward? *Colleen* wclark1046 wrote: Weebs, I ve been browsing your Web site - as I predicted,
    Message 1 of 19 , Jul 3, 2002
      Do you have any facts to back this up Ward? *Colleen*

      wclark1046 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Weebs, I've been browsing your Web site - as I predicted, it's full
      of what have become traditional untruths told by AR advocates.
      Here's one:

      "Question/attack: "If we stopped testing on animals the products
      would be unsafe for humans."

      Response: a) Even with animal testing the products are not always
      safe for humans. In fact, there are drugs and treatments tested on
      animals that have proven unsafe for humans(i.e. Thalidomide). "

      That's false, Weebs. Thalidomide was never tested for
      teratogenicity prior to its release in Europe. You don't know why
      it wasn't ever released in the US, do you? You have an FDA officer,
      Frances Kelsey, to thank for that. Kelsey had suspected that
      thalidomide might have a teratogenic effect, as she had formally
      studied teratogenicity - a fledgling science at that time. She was
      right, and later tests proved it. Now, following that tragedy in
      Europe, a host of tests proved that thalidomide produced precisely
      the same effects in a variety of mammals as it did in humans. Those
      tests can be referenced still at any decent University library:

      1.DiPaolo JA (1963). Congenital malformation in strain A mice: its
      experimental production by thalidomide. JAMA vol.183: 139-141
      2 King CTG & Kendrick FJ (1962). Teratogenic effects of thalidomide
      in the Sprague Dawley rat. The Lancet: ii: 1116
      3. Homburger F, Chaube S, Eppenberger M, Bogdonoff PD and Nixon CW
      (1965). Susceptibility of certain inbred strains of hamsters to
      teratogenic effects of thalidomide. Toxicol Appl Pharmaco vol.: 686-
      69

      4. Hamilton WJ & Poswillo DE (1972). Limb reduction anomalies
      induced in the marmoset by thalidomide. J Anat vol.11:505-50

      5. Hendrick AG, Axelrod LR & Clayborn LD (1966). Thalidomide
      syndrome in baboons Natur vol. 210: 958-95

      By the way, Weebs, can you tell us what other effects - beside limb
      malformations - thalidomide has on fetuses? You can't, can you?

      Here's the inescapable conclusion:

      The teratogenic and embryotoxic effects of thalidomide are caused by
      a mutagenic DNA binding mechanism during the organogenetic stage of
      embryo development.

      The mechanisms of embryo development in these stages are identical
      across the mammalian species.

      Any teratogenic or embryotoxic test that produces results in rats is
      highly indicative of similar results in humans.

      The above referenced tests prove that to be the case.

      Now, for the record, Weebs:

      Please explain for us how the lack of application of these highly
      predictive tests prior to the release of thalidomide in the European
      market translates into a failure of animal research, rather than a
      failure to apply sufficient animal research.

      Or, to put it another way, please explain to us how it is possible
      that these test would not have revealed teratogenic and embryotoxic
      effects before the release of thalidomide, but somehow,
      miraculously, done so afterwards?



      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      animalrightsdebateclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



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      "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our hearts, and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum


      ---------------------------------
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    • wclark1046
      ... Didn t you read the posts? I provided references. Real references, to actual work done by actual scientists, and published in peer- reviewed journals
      Message 2 of 19 , Jul 5, 2002
        --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Do you have any facts to back this up Ward? *Colleen*

        Didn't you read the posts? I provided references. Real references,
        to actual work done by actual scientists, and published in peer-
        reviewed journals that you should be able to find in any decent
        University library. You have all the information you need to look
        into it for yourself.

        >
        > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: Weebs, I've been browsing your
        Web site - as I predicted, it's full
        > of what have become traditional untruths told by AR advocates.
        > Here's one:
        >
        > "Question/attack: "If we stopped testing on animals the products
        > would be unsafe for humans."
        >
        > Response: a) Even with animal testing the products are not always
        > safe for humans. In fact, there are drugs and treatments tested on
        > animals that have proven unsafe for humans(i.e. Thalidomide). "
        >
        > That's false, Weebs. Thalidomide was never tested for
        > teratogenicity prior to its release in Europe. You don't know why
        > it wasn't ever released in the US, do you? You have an FDA
        officer,
        > Frances Kelsey, to thank for that. Kelsey had suspected that
        > thalidomide might have a teratogenic effect, as she had formally
        > studied teratogenicity - a fledgling science at that time. She
        was
        > right, and later tests proved it. Now, following that tragedy in
        > Europe, a host of tests proved that thalidomide produced precisely
        > the same effects in a variety of mammals as it did in humans.
        Those
        > tests can be referenced still at any decent University library:
        >
        > 1.DiPaolo JA (1963). Congenital malformation in strain A mice: its
        > experimental production by thalidomide. JAMA vol.183: 139-141
        > 2 King CTG & Kendrick FJ (1962). Teratogenic effects of
        thalidomide
        > in the Sprague Dawley rat. The Lancet: ii: 1116
        > 3. Homburger F, Chaube S, Eppenberger M, Bogdonoff PD and Nixon CW
        > (1965). Susceptibility of certain inbred strains of hamsters to
        > teratogenic effects of thalidomide. Toxicol Appl Pharmaco vol.:
        686-
        > 69
        >
        > 4. Hamilton WJ & Poswillo DE (1972). Limb reduction anomalies
        > induced in the marmoset by thalidomide. J Anat vol.11:505-50
        >
        > 5. Hendrick AG, Axelrod LR & Clayborn LD (1966). Thalidomide
        > syndrome in baboons Natur vol. 210: 958-95
        >
        > By the way, Weebs, can you tell us what other effects - beside
        limb
        > malformations - thalidomide has on fetuses? You can't, can you?
        >
        > Here's the inescapable conclusion:
        >
        > The teratogenic and embryotoxic effects of thalidomide are caused
        by
        > a mutagenic DNA binding mechanism during the organogenetic stage
        of
        > embryo development.
        >
        > The mechanisms of embryo development in these stages are identical
        > across the mammalian species.
        >
        > Any teratogenic or embryotoxic test that produces results in rats
        is
        > highly indicative of similar results in humans.
        >
        > The above referenced tests prove that to be the case.
        >
        > Now, for the record, Weebs:
        >
        > Please explain for us how the lack of application of these highly
        > predictive tests prior to the release of thalidomide in the
        European
        > market translates into a failure of animal research, rather than a
        > failure to apply sufficient animal research.
        >
        > Or, to put it another way, please explain to us how it is possible
        > that these test would not have revealed teratogenic and
        embryotoxic
        > effects before the release of thalidomide, but somehow,
        > miraculously, done so afterwards?
        >
        >
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > animalrightsdebateclub-unsubscribe@y...
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
        Service.
        >
        >
        > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our hearts,
        and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > Do You Yahoo!?
        > New! SBC Yahoo! Dial - 1st Month Free & unlimited access
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Colleen Klaum
        As a matter of fact Ward, I will stick with the info I get from my sources. *Colleen* wclark1046 wrote: --- In
        Message 3 of 19 , Jul 5, 2002
          As a matter of fact Ward, I will stick with the info I get from my sources. *Colleen*

          wclark1046 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Do you have any facts to back this up Ward? *Colleen*

          Didn't you read the posts? I provided references. Real references,
          to actual work done by actual scientists, and published in peer-
          reviewed journals that you should be able to find in any decent
          University library. You have all the information you need to look
          into it for yourself.

          >
          > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: Weebs, I've been browsing your
          Web site - as I predicted, it's full
          > of what have become traditional untruths told by AR advocates.
          > Here's one:
          >
          > "Question/attack: "If we stopped testing on animals the products
          > would be unsafe for humans."
          >
          > Response: a) Even with animal testing the products are not always
          > safe for humans. In fact, there are drugs and treatments tested on
          > animals that have proven unsafe for humans(i.e. Thalidomide). "
          >
          > That's false, Weebs. Thalidomide was never tested for
          > teratogenicity prior to its release in Europe. You don't know why
          > it wasn't ever released in the US, do you? You have an FDA
          officer,
          > Frances Kelsey, to thank for that. Kelsey had suspected that
          > thalidomide might have a teratogenic effect, as she had formally
          > studied teratogenicity - a fledgling science at that time. She
          was
          > right, and later tests proved it. Now, following that tragedy in
          > Europe, a host of tests proved that thalidomide produced precisely
          > the same effects in a variety of mammals as it did in humans.
          Those
          > tests can be referenced still at any decent University library:
          >
          > 1.DiPaolo JA (1963). Congenital malformation in strain A mice: its
          > experimental production by thalidomide. JAMA vol.183: 139-141
          > 2 King CTG & Kendrick FJ (1962). Teratogenic effects of
          thalidomide
          > in the Sprague Dawley rat. The Lancet: ii: 1116
          > 3. Homburger F, Chaube S, Eppenberger M, Bogdonoff PD and Nixon CW
          > (1965). Susceptibility of certain inbred strains of hamsters to
          > teratogenic effects of thalidomide. Toxicol Appl Pharmaco vol.:
          686-
          > 69
          >
          > 4. Hamilton WJ & Poswillo DE (1972). Limb reduction anomalies
          > induced in the marmoset by thalidomide. J Anat vol.11:505-50
          >
          > 5. Hendrick AG, Axelrod LR & Clayborn LD (1966). Thalidomide
          > syndrome in baboons Natur vol. 210: 958-95
          >
          > By the way, Weebs, can you tell us what other effects - beside
          limb
          > malformations - thalidomide has on fetuses? You can't, can you?
          >
          > Here's the inescapable conclusion:
          >
          > The teratogenic and embryotoxic effects of thalidomide are caused
          by
          > a mutagenic DNA binding mechanism during the organogenetic stage
          of
          > embryo development.
          >
          > The mechanisms of embryo development in these stages are identical
          > across the mammalian species.
          >
          > Any teratogenic or embryotoxic test that produces results in rats
          is
          > highly indicative of similar results in humans.
          >
          > The above referenced tests prove that to be the case.
          >
          > Now, for the record, Weebs:
          >
          > Please explain for us how the lack of application of these highly
          > predictive tests prior to the release of thalidomide in the
          European
          > market translates into a failure of animal research, rather than a
          > failure to apply sufficient animal research.
          >
          > Or, to put it another way, please explain to us how it is possible
          > that these test would not have revealed teratogenic and
          embryotoxic
          > effects before the release of thalidomide, but somehow,
          > miraculously, done so afterwards?
          >
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > animalrightsdebateclub-unsubscribe@y...
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
          Service.
          >
          >
          > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our hearts,
          and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
          >
          >
          > ---------------------------------
          > Do You Yahoo!?
          > New! SBC Yahoo! Dial - 1st Month Free & unlimited access
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


          To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          animalrightsdebateclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



          Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


          "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our hearts, and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum


          ---------------------------------
          Do You Yahoo!?
          New! SBC Yahoo! Dial - 1st Month Free & unlimited access

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • wclark1046
          Your sources aren t reputable, Colleen. Dishonesty comes as naturally to them as breathing. They aren t anything like reputable. Go to Quackwatch.com and
          Message 4 of 19 , Jul 5, 2002
            Your sources aren't reputable, Colleen. Dishonesty comes as
            naturally to them as breathing. They aren't anything like
            reputable. Go to Quackwatch.com and read their analysis of PCRM.
            You can go to the AMA's Web site, download their excellent (and
            free) Policyfinder, and read what they say about PCRM as well.

            Do you think PCRM and PeTA are more reliable than the AMA?

            If so, why? What would you say if I showed you that they are lying
            to you?

            If you want information about science, you have to go to the people
            who are actually ***doing*** science.

            Do you know what "peer-review" is?

            --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
            wrote:
            >
            > As a matter of fact Ward, I will stick with the info I get
            from my sources. *Colleen*
            >
            > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: --- In
            animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > Do you have any facts to back this up Ward? *Colleen*
            >
            > Didn't you read the posts? I provided references. Real
            references,
            > to actual work done by actual scientists, and published in peer-
            > reviewed journals that you should be able to find in any decent
            > University library. You have all the information you need to look
            > into it for yourself.
            >
            > >
            > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: Weebs, I've been browsing
            your
            > Web site - as I predicted, it's full
            > > of what have become traditional untruths told by AR advocates.
            > > Here's one:
            > >
            > > "Question/attack: "If we stopped testing on animals the products
            > > would be unsafe for humans."
            > >
            > > Response: a) Even with animal testing the products are not
            always
            > > safe for humans. In fact, there are drugs and treatments tested
            on
            > > animals that have proven unsafe for humans(i.e. Thalidomide). "
            > >
            > > That's false, Weebs. Thalidomide was never tested for
            > > teratogenicity prior to its release in Europe. You don't know
            why
            > > it wasn't ever released in the US, do you? You have an FDA
            > officer,
            > > Frances Kelsey, to thank for that. Kelsey had suspected that
            > > thalidomide might have a teratogenic effect, as she had formally
            > > studied teratogenicity - a fledgling science at that time. She
            > was
            > > right, and later tests proved it. Now, following that tragedy
            in
            > > Europe, a host of tests proved that thalidomide produced
            precisely
            > > the same effects in a variety of mammals as it did in humans.
            > Those
            > > tests can be referenced still at any decent University library:
            > >
            > > 1.DiPaolo JA (1963). Congenital malformation in strain A mice:
            its
            > > experimental production by thalidomide. JAMA vol.183: 139-141
            > > 2 King CTG & Kendrick FJ (1962). Teratogenic effects of
            > thalidomide
            > > in the Sprague Dawley rat. The Lancet: ii: 1116
            > > 3. Homburger F, Chaube S, Eppenberger M, Bogdonoff PD and Nixon
            CW
            > > (1965). Susceptibility of certain inbred strains of hamsters to
            > > teratogenic effects of thalidomide. Toxicol Appl Pharmaco vol.:
            > 686-
            > > 69
            > >
            > > 4. Hamilton WJ & Poswillo DE (1972). Limb reduction anomalies
            > > induced in the marmoset by thalidomide. J Anat vol.11:505-50
            > >
            > > 5. Hendrick AG, Axelrod LR & Clayborn LD (1966). Thalidomide
            > > syndrome in baboons Natur vol. 210: 958-95
            > >
            > > By the way, Weebs, can you tell us what other effects - beside
            > limb
            > > malformations - thalidomide has on fetuses? You can't, can you?
            > >
            > > Here's the inescapable conclusion:
            > >
            > > The teratogenic and embryotoxic effects of thalidomide are
            caused
            > by
            > > a mutagenic DNA binding mechanism during the organogenetic stage
            > of
            > > embryo development.
            > >
            > > The mechanisms of embryo development in these stages are
            identical
            > > across the mammalian species.
            > >
            > > Any teratogenic or embryotoxic test that produces results in
            rats
            > is
            > > highly indicative of similar results in humans.
            > >
            > > The above referenced tests prove that to be the case.
            > >
            > > Now, for the record, Weebs:
            > >
            > > Please explain for us how the lack of application of these
            highly
            > > predictive tests prior to the release of thalidomide in the
            > European
            > > market translates into a failure of animal research, rather than
            a
            > > failure to apply sufficient animal research.
            > >
            > > Or, to put it another way, please explain to us how it is
            possible
            > > that these test would not have revealed teratogenic and
            > embryotoxic
            > > effects before the release of thalidomide, but somehow,
            > > miraculously, done so afterwards?
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > > animalrightsdebateclub-unsubscribe@y...
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
            > Service.
            > >
            > >
            > > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our
            hearts,
            > and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
            > >
            > >
            > > ---------------------------------
            > > Do You Yahoo!?
            > > New! SBC Yahoo! Dial - 1st Month Free & unlimited access
            > >
            > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > animalrightsdebateclub-unsubscribe@y...
            >
            >
            >
            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
            Service.
            >
            >
            > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our hearts,
            and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > Do You Yahoo!?
            > New! SBC Yahoo! Dial - 1st Month Free & unlimited access
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Colleen Klaum
            I don t listen to anything PCRM has to say. I get my info from other sources Ward. *Colleen* wclark1046 wrote: Your sources aren t
            Message 5 of 19 , Jul 5, 2002
              I don't listen to anything PCRM has to say. I get my info from other sources Ward. *Colleen*

              wclark1046 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Your sources aren't reputable, Colleen. Dishonesty comes as
              naturally to them as breathing. They aren't anything like
              reputable. Go to Quackwatch.com and read their analysis of PCRM.
              You can go to the AMA's Web site, download their excellent (and
              free) Policyfinder, and read what they say about PCRM as well.

              Do you think PCRM and PeTA are more reliable than the AMA?

              If so, why? What would you say if I showed you that they are lying
              to you?

              If you want information about science, you have to go to the people
              who are actually ***doing*** science.

              Do you know what "peer-review" is?

              --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
              wrote:
              >
              > As a matter of fact Ward, I will stick with the info I get
              from my sources. *Colleen*
              >
              > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: --- In
              animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > Do you have any facts to back this up Ward? *Colleen*
              >
              > Didn't you read the posts? I provided references. Real
              references,
              > to actual work done by actual scientists, and published in peer-
              > reviewed journals that you should be able to find in any decent
              > University library. You have all the information you need to look
              > into it for yourself.
              >
              > >
              > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: Weebs, I've been browsing
              your
              > Web site - as I predicted, it's full
              > > of what have become traditional untruths told by AR advocates.
              > > Here's one:
              > >
              > > "Question/attack: "If we stopped testing on animals the products
              > > would be unsafe for humans."
              > >
              > > Response: a) Even with animal testing the products are not
              always
              > > safe for humans. In fact, there are drugs and treatments tested
              on
              > > animals that have proven unsafe for humans(i.e. Thalidomide). "
              > >
              > > That's false, Weebs. Thalidomide was never tested for
              > > teratogenicity prior to its release in Europe. You don't know
              why
              > > it wasn't ever released in the US, do you? You have an FDA
              > officer,
              > > Frances Kelsey, to thank for that. Kelsey had suspected that
              > > thalidomide might have a teratogenic effect, as she had formally
              > > studied teratogenicity - a fledgling science at that time. She
              > was
              > > right, and later tests proved it. Now, following that tragedy
              in
              > > Europe, a host of tests proved that thalidomide produced
              precisely
              > > the same effects in a variety of mammals as it did in humans.
              > Those
              > > tests can be referenced still at any decent University library:
              > >
              > > 1.DiPaolo JA (1963). Congenital malformation in strain A mice:
              its
              > > experimental production by thalidomide. JAMA vol.183: 139-141
              > > 2 King CTG & Kendrick FJ (1962). Teratogenic effects of
              > thalidomide
              > > in the Sprague Dawley rat. The Lancet: ii: 1116
              > > 3. Homburger F, Chaube S, Eppenberger M, Bogdonoff PD and Nixon
              CW
              > > (1965). Susceptibility of certain inbred strains of hamsters to
              > > teratogenic effects of thalidomide. Toxicol Appl Pharmaco vol.:
              > 686-
              > > 69
              > >
              > > 4. Hamilton WJ & Poswillo DE (1972). Limb reduction anomalies
              > > induced in the marmoset by thalidomide. J Anat vol.11:505-50
              > >
              > > 5. Hendrick AG, Axelrod LR & Clayborn LD (1966). Thalidomide
              > > syndrome in baboons Natur vol. 210: 958-95
              > >
              > > By the way, Weebs, can you tell us what other effects - beside
              > limb
              > > malformations - thalidomide has on fetuses? You can't, can you?
              > >
              > > Here's the inescapable conclusion:
              > >
              > > The teratogenic and embryotoxic effects of thalidomide are
              caused
              > by
              > > a mutagenic DNA binding mechanism during the organogenetic stage
              > of
              > > embryo development.
              > >
              > > The mechanisms of embryo development in these stages are
              identical
              > > across the mammalian species.
              > >
              > > Any teratogenic or embryotoxic test that produces results in
              rats
              > is
              > > highly indicative of similar results in humans.
              > >
              > > The above referenced tests prove that to be the case.
              > >
              > > Now, for the record, Weebs:
              > >
              > > Please explain for us how the lack of application of these
              highly
              > > predictive tests prior to the release of thalidomide in the
              > European
              > > market translates into a failure of animal research, rather than
              a
              > > failure to apply sufficient animal research.
              > >
              > > Or, to put it another way, please explain to us how it is
              possible
              > > that these test would not have revealed teratogenic and
              > embryotoxic
              > > effects before the release of thalidomide, but somehow,
              > > miraculously, done so afterwards?
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > > animalrightsdebateclub-unsubscribe@y...
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
              > Service.
              > >
              > >
              > > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our
              hearts,
              > and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
              > >
              > >
              > > ---------------------------------
              > > Do You Yahoo!?
              > > New! SBC Yahoo! Dial - 1st Month Free & unlimited access
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > animalrightsdebateclub-unsubscribe@y...
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
              Service.
              >
              >
              > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our hearts,
              and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > Do You Yahoo!?
              > New! SBC Yahoo! Dial - 1st Month Free & unlimited access
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


              To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              animalrightsdebateclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



              Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


              "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our hearts, and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum


              ---------------------------------
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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • wclark1046
              ... other sources Ward. *Colleen* What are your sources, then? Tell us where you get your information. Your campaigning against HLS isn t encouraging. ...
              Message 6 of 19 , Jul 5, 2002
                --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
                wrote:
                >
                > I don't listen to anything PCRM has to say. I get my info from
                other sources Ward. *Colleen*

                What are your sources, then? Tell us where you get your
                information. Your campaigning against HLS isn't encouraging.

                >
                > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: Your sources aren't reputable,
                Colleen. Dishonesty comes as
                > naturally to them as breathing. They aren't anything like
                > reputable. Go to Quackwatch.com and read their analysis of PCRM.
                > You can go to the AMA's Web site, download their excellent (and
                > free) Policyfinder, and read what they say about PCRM as well.
                >
                > Do you think PCRM and PeTA are more reliable than the AMA?
                >
                > If so, why? What would you say if I showed you that they are
                lying
                > to you?
                >
                > If you want information about science, you have to go to the
                people
                > who are actually ***doing*** science.
                >
                > Do you know what "peer-review" is?
                >
                > --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > As a matter of fact Ward, I will stick with the info I get
                > from my sources. *Colleen*
                > >
                > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: --- In
                > animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
                > > wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Do you have any facts to back this up Ward? *Colleen*
                > >
                > > Didn't you read the posts? I provided references. Real
                > references,
                > > to actual work done by actual scientists, and published in peer-
                > > reviewed journals that you should be able to find in any decent
                > > University library. You have all the information you need to
                look
                > > into it for yourself.
                > >
                > > >
                > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: Weebs, I've been browsing
                > your
                > > Web site - as I predicted, it's full
                > > > of what have become traditional untruths told by AR
                advocates.
                > > > Here's one:
                > > >
                > > > "Question/attack: "If we stopped testing on animals the
                products
                > > > would be unsafe for humans."
                > > >
                > > > Response: a) Even with animal testing the products are not
                > always
                > > > safe for humans. In fact, there are drugs and treatments
                tested
                > on
                > > > animals that have proven unsafe for humans(i.e. Thalidomide). "
                > > >
                > > > That's false, Weebs. Thalidomide was never tested for
                > > > teratogenicity prior to its release in Europe. You don't know
                > why
                > > > it wasn't ever released in the US, do you? You have an FDA
                > > officer,
                > > > Frances Kelsey, to thank for that. Kelsey had suspected that
                > > > thalidomide might have a teratogenic effect, as she had
                formally
                > > > studied teratogenicity - a fledgling science at that time.
                She
                > > was
                > > > right, and later tests proved it. Now, following that tragedy
                > in
                > > > Europe, a host of tests proved that thalidomide produced
                > precisely
                > > > the same effects in a variety of mammals as it did in humans.
                > > Those
                > > > tests can be referenced still at any decent University library:
                > > >
                > > > 1.DiPaolo JA (1963). Congenital malformation in strain A mice:
                > its
                > > > experimental production by thalidomide. JAMA vol.183: 139-141
                > > > 2 King CTG & Kendrick FJ (1962). Teratogenic effects of
                > > thalidomide
                > > > in the Sprague Dawley rat. The Lancet: ii: 1116
                > > > 3. Homburger F, Chaube S, Eppenberger M, Bogdonoff PD and
                Nixon
                > CW
                > > > (1965). Susceptibility of certain inbred strains of hamsters
                to
                > > > teratogenic effects of thalidomide. Toxicol Appl Pharmaco
                vol.:
                > > 686-
                > > > 69
                > > >
                > > > 4. Hamilton WJ & Poswillo DE (1972). Limb reduction anomalies
                > > > induced in the marmoset by thalidomide. J Anat vol.11:505-50
                > > >
                > > > 5. Hendrick AG, Axelrod LR & Clayborn LD (1966). Thalidomide
                > > > syndrome in baboons Natur vol. 210: 958-95
                > > >
                > > > By the way, Weebs, can you tell us what other effects - beside
                > > limb
                > > > malformations - thalidomide has on fetuses? You can't, can
                you?
                > > >
                > > > Here's the inescapable conclusion:
                > > >
                > > > The teratogenic and embryotoxic effects of thalidomide are
                > caused
                > > by
                > > > a mutagenic DNA binding mechanism during the organogenetic
                stage
                > > of
                > > > embryo development.
                > > >
                > > > The mechanisms of embryo development in these stages are
                > identical
                > > > across the mammalian species.
                > > >
                > > > Any teratogenic or embryotoxic test that produces results in
                > rats
                > > is
                > > > highly indicative of similar results in humans.
                > > >
                > > > The above referenced tests prove that to be the case.
                > > >
                > > > Now, for the record, Weebs:
                > > >
                > > > Please explain for us how the lack of application of these
                > highly
                > > > predictive tests prior to the release of thalidomide in the
                > > European
                > > > market translates into a failure of animal research, rather
                than
                > a
                > > > failure to apply sufficient animal research.
                > > >
                > > > Or, to put it another way, please explain to us how it is
                > possible
                > > > that these test would not have revealed teratogenic and
                > > embryotoxic
                > > > effects before the release of thalidomide, but somehow,
                > > > miraculously, done so afterwards?
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > > > animalrightsdebateclub-unsubscribe@y...
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                > > Service.
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our
                > hearts,
                > > and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > ---------------------------------
                > > > Do You Yahoo!?
                > > > New! SBC Yahoo! Dial - 1st Month Free & unlimited access
                > > >
                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                > >
                > >
                > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > > animalrightsdebateclub-unsubscribe@y...
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                > Service.
                > >
                > >
                > > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our
                hearts,
                > and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                > >
                > >
                > > ---------------------------------
                > > Do You Yahoo!?
                > > New! SBC Yahoo! Dial - 1st Month Free & unlimited access
                > >
                > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > animalrightsdebateclub-unsubscribe@y...
                >
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                Service.
                >
                >
                > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our hearts,
                and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                > Do You Yahoo!?
                > New! SBC Yahoo! Dial - 1st Month Free & unlimited access
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Colleen Klaum
                My campaigning against HLS is my business too!! Mister know it all. And if I choose to share my info with you, so be it. *Colleen* wclark1046
                Message 7 of 19 , Jul 5, 2002
                  My campaigning against HLS is my business too!! Mister know it all. And if I choose to share my info with you, so be it. *Colleen*

                  wclark1046 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > I don't listen to anything PCRM has to say. I get my info from
                  other sources Ward. *Colleen*

                  What are your sources, then? Tell us where you get your
                  information. Your campaigning against HLS isn't encouraging.

                  >
                  > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: Your sources aren't reputable,
                  Colleen. Dishonesty comes as
                  > naturally to them as breathing. They aren't anything like
                  > reputable. Go to Quackwatch.com and read their analysis of PCRM.
                  > You can go to the AMA's Web site, download their excellent (and
                  > free) Policyfinder, and read what they say about PCRM as well.
                  >
                  > Do you think PCRM and PeTA are more reliable than the AMA?
                  >
                  > If so, why? What would you say if I showed you that they are
                  lying
                  > to you?
                  >
                  > If you want information about science, you have to go to the
                  people
                  > who are actually ***doing*** science.
                  >
                  > Do you know what "peer-review" is?
                  >
                  > --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > As a matter of fact Ward, I will stick with the info I get
                  > from my sources. *Colleen*
                  > >
                  > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: --- In
                  > animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
                  > > wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Do you have any facts to back this up Ward? *Colleen*
                  > >
                  > > Didn't you read the posts? I provided references. Real
                  > references,
                  > > to actual work done by actual scientists, and published in peer-
                  > > reviewed journals that you should be able to find in any decent
                  > > University library. You have all the information you need to
                  look
                  > > into it for yourself.
                  > >
                  > > >
                  > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: Weebs, I've been browsing
                  > your
                  > > Web site - as I predicted, it's full
                  > > > of what have become traditional untruths told by AR
                  advocates.
                  > > > Here's one:
                  > > >
                  > > > "Question/attack: "If we stopped testing on animals the
                  products
                  > > > would be unsafe for humans."
                  > > >
                  > > > Response: a) Even with animal testing the products are not
                  > always
                  > > > safe for humans. In fact, there are drugs and treatments
                  tested
                  > on
                  > > > animals that have proven unsafe for humans(i.e. Thalidomide). "
                  > > >
                  > > > That's false, Weebs. Thalidomide was never tested for
                  > > > teratogenicity prior to its release in Europe. You don't know
                  > why
                  > > > it wasn't ever released in the US, do you? You have an FDA
                  > > officer,
                  > > > Frances Kelsey, to thank for that. Kelsey had suspected that
                  > > > thalidomide might have a teratogenic effect, as she had
                  formally
                  > > > studied teratogenicity - a fledgling science at that time.
                  She
                  > > was
                  > > > right, and later tests proved it. Now, following that tragedy
                  > in
                  > > > Europe, a host of tests proved that thalidomide produced
                  > precisely
                  > > > the same effects in a variety of mammals as it did in humans.
                  > > Those
                  > > > tests can be referenced still at any decent University library:
                  > > >
                  > > > 1.DiPaolo JA (1963). Congenital malformation in strain A mice:
                  > its
                  > > > experimental production by thalidomide. JAMA vol.183: 139-141
                  > > > 2 King CTG & Kendrick FJ (1962). Teratogenic effects of
                  > > thalidomide
                  > > > in the Sprague Dawley rat. The Lancet: ii: 1116
                  > > > 3. Homburger F, Chaube S, Eppenberger M, Bogdonoff PD and
                  Nixon
                  > CW
                  > > > (1965). Susceptibility of certain inbred strains of hamsters
                  to
                  > > > teratogenic effects of thalidomide. Toxicol Appl Pharmaco
                  vol.:
                  > > 686-
                  > > > 69
                  > > >
                  > > > 4. Hamilton WJ & Poswillo DE (1972). Limb reduction anomalies
                  > > > induced in the marmoset by thalidomide. J Anat vol.11:505-50
                  > > >
                  > > > 5. Hendrick AG, Axelrod LR & Clayborn LD (1966). Thalidomide
                  > > > syndrome in baboons Natur vol. 210: 958-95
                  > > >
                  > > > By the way, Weebs, can you tell us what other effects - beside
                  > > limb
                  > > > malformations - thalidomide has on fetuses? You can't, can
                  you?
                  > > >
                  > > > Here's the inescapable conclusion:
                  > > >
                  > > > The teratogenic and embryotoxic effects of thalidomide are
                  > caused
                  > > by
                  > > > a mutagenic DNA binding mechanism during the organogenetic
                  stage
                  > > of
                  > > > embryo development.
                  > > >
                  > > > The mechanisms of embryo development in these stages are
                  > identical
                  > > > across the mammalian species.
                  > > >
                  > > > Any teratogenic or embryotoxic test that produces results in
                  > rats
                  > > is
                  > > > highly indicative of similar results in humans.
                  > > >
                  > > > The above referenced tests prove that to be the case.
                  > > >
                  > > > Now, for the record, Weebs:
                  > > >
                  > > > Please explain for us how the lack of application of these
                  > highly
                  > > > predictive tests prior to the release of thalidomide in the
                  > > European
                  > > > market translates into a failure of animal research, rather
                  than
                  > a
                  > > > failure to apply sufficient animal research.
                  > > >
                  > > > Or, to put it another way, please explain to us how it is
                  > possible
                  > > > that these test would not have revealed teratogenic and
                  > > embryotoxic
                  > > > effects before the release of thalidomide, but somehow,
                  > > > miraculously, done so afterwards?
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > > > animalrightsdebateclub-unsubscribe@y...
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                  > > Service.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our
                  > hearts,
                  > > and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > ---------------------------------
                  > > > Do You Yahoo!?
                  > > > New! SBC Yahoo! Dial - 1st Month Free & unlimited access
                  > > >
                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > > animalrightsdebateclub-unsubscribe@y...
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                  > Service.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our
                  hearts,
                  > and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ---------------------------------
                  > > Do You Yahoo!?
                  > > New! SBC Yahoo! Dial - 1st Month Free & unlimited access
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > animalrightsdebateclub-unsubscribe@y...
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                  Service.
                  >
                  >
                  > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our hearts,
                  and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
                  > Do You Yahoo!?
                  > New! SBC Yahoo! Dial - 1st Month Free & unlimited access
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                  To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  animalrightsdebateclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



                  Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


                  "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our hearts, and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum


                  ---------------------------------
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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • wclark1046
                  ... Yes, and your virtual sit-in is cyber-thuggery. I m willing to bet you don t really know anything about what HLS actually does. Mister know it all. And
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jul 6, 2002
                    --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
                    wrote:
                    >
                    > My campaigning against HLS is my business too!!

                    Yes, and your "virtual sit-in" is cyber-thuggery. I'm willing to
                    bet you don't really know anything about what HLS actually does.

                    Mister know it all. And if I choose to share my info with you, so be
                    it. *Colleen*

                    Why won't you? Are you worried that I might prove you're being lied
                    to? If I could, would you change your attitude?

                    >
                    > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: --- In
                    animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
                    > wrote:
                    > >
                    > > I don't listen to anything PCRM has to say. I get my info
                    from
                    > other sources Ward. *Colleen*
                    >
                    > What are your sources, then? Tell us where you get your
                    > information. Your campaigning against HLS isn't encouraging.
                    >
                    > >
                    > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: Your sources aren't
                    reputable,
                    > Colleen. Dishonesty comes as
                    > > naturally to them as breathing. They aren't anything like
                    > > reputable. Go to Quackwatch.com and read their analysis of
                    PCRM.
                    > > You can go to the AMA's Web site, download their excellent (and
                    > > free) Policyfinder, and read what they say about PCRM as well.
                    > >
                    > > Do you think PCRM and PeTA are more reliable than the AMA?
                    > >
                    > > If so, why? What would you say if I showed you that they are
                    > lying
                    > > to you?
                    > >
                    > > If you want information about science, you have to go to the
                    > people
                    > > who are actually ***doing*** science.
                    > >
                    > > Do you know what "peer-review" is?
                    > >
                    > > --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum
                    <wildfawn1@y...>
                    > > wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > As a matter of fact Ward, I will stick with the info I get
                    > > from my sources. *Colleen*
                    > > >
                    > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: --- In
                    > > animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
                    > > > wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Do you have any facts to back this up Ward? *Colleen*
                    > > >
                    > > > Didn't you read the posts? I provided references. Real
                    > > references,
                    > > > to actual work done by actual scientists, and published in
                    peer-
                    > > > reviewed journals that you should be able to find in any
                    decent
                    > > > University library. You have all the information you need to
                    > look
                    > > > into it for yourself.
                    > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: Weebs, I've been
                    browsing
                    > > your
                    > > > Web site - as I predicted, it's full
                    > > > > of what have become traditional untruths told by AR
                    > advocates.
                    > > > > Here's one:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > "Question/attack: "If we stopped testing on animals the
                    > products
                    > > > > would be unsafe for humans."
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Response: a) Even with animal testing the products are not
                    > > always
                    > > > > safe for humans. In fact, there are drugs and treatments
                    > tested
                    > > on
                    > > > > animals that have proven unsafe for humans(i.e.
                    Thalidomide). "
                    > > > >
                    > > > > That's false, Weebs. Thalidomide was never tested for
                    > > > > teratogenicity prior to its release in Europe. You don't
                    know
                    > > why
                    > > > > it wasn't ever released in the US, do you? You have an FDA
                    > > > officer,
                    > > > > Frances Kelsey, to thank for that. Kelsey had suspected
                    that
                    > > > > thalidomide might have a teratogenic effect, as she had
                    > formally
                    > > > > studied teratogenicity - a fledgling science at that time.
                    > She
                    > > > was
                    > > > > right, and later tests proved it. Now, following that
                    tragedy
                    > > in
                    > > > > Europe, a host of tests proved that thalidomide produced
                    > > precisely
                    > > > > the same effects in a variety of mammals as it did in
                    humans.
                    > > > Those
                    > > > > tests can be referenced still at any decent University
                    library:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > 1.DiPaolo JA (1963). Congenital malformation in strain A
                    mice:
                    > > its
                    > > > > experimental production by thalidomide. JAMA vol.183: 139-
                    141
                    > > > > 2 King CTG & Kendrick FJ (1962). Teratogenic effects of
                    > > > thalidomide
                    > > > > in the Sprague Dawley rat. The Lancet: ii: 1116
                    > > > > 3. Homburger F, Chaube S, Eppenberger M, Bogdonoff PD and
                    > Nixon
                    > > CW
                    > > > > (1965). Susceptibility of certain inbred strains of hamsters
                    > to
                    > > > > teratogenic effects of thalidomide. Toxicol Appl Pharmaco
                    > vol.:
                    > > > 686-
                    > > > > 69
                    > > > >
                    > > > > 4. Hamilton WJ & Poswillo DE (1972). Limb reduction
                    anomalies
                    > > > > induced in the marmoset by thalidomide. J Anat vol.11:505-50
                    > > > >
                    > > > > 5. Hendrick AG, Axelrod LR & Clayborn LD (1966). Thalidomide
                    > > > > syndrome in baboons Natur vol. 210: 958-95
                    > > > >
                    > > > > By the way, Weebs, can you tell us what other effects -
                    beside
                    > > > limb
                    > > > > malformations - thalidomide has on fetuses? You can't, can
                    > you?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Here's the inescapable conclusion:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > The teratogenic and embryotoxic effects of thalidomide are
                    > > caused
                    > > > by
                    > > > > a mutagenic DNA binding mechanism during the organogenetic
                    > stage
                    > > > of
                    > > > > embryo development.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > The mechanisms of embryo development in these stages are
                    > > identical
                    > > > > across the mammalian species.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Any teratogenic or embryotoxic test that produces results in
                    > > rats
                    > > > is
                    > > > > highly indicative of similar results in humans.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > The above referenced tests prove that to be the case.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Now, for the record, Weebs:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Please explain for us how the lack of application of these
                    > > highly
                    > > > > predictive tests prior to the release of thalidomide in the
                    > > > European
                    > > > > market translates into a failure of animal research, rather
                    > than
                    > > a
                    > > > > failure to apply sufficient animal research.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Or, to put it another way, please explain to us how it is
                    > > possible
                    > > > > that these test would not have revealed teratogenic and
                    > > > embryotoxic
                    > > > > effects before the release of thalidomide, but somehow,
                    > > > > miraculously, done so afterwards?
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > > > > animalrightsdebateclub-unsubscribe@y...
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                    > > > Service.
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our
                    > > hearts,
                    > > > and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > ---------------------------------
                    > > > > Do You Yahoo!?
                    > > > > New! SBC Yahoo! Dial - 1st Month Free & unlimited access
                    > > > >
                    > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > > > animalrightsdebateclub-unsubscribe@y...
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                    > > Service.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our
                    > hearts,
                    > > and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > ---------------------------------
                    > > > Do You Yahoo!?
                    > > > New! SBC Yahoo! Dial - 1st Month Free & unlimited access
                    > > >
                    > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > > animalrightsdebateclub-unsubscribe@y...
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                    > Service.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our
                    hearts,
                    > and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ---------------------------------
                    > > Do You Yahoo!?
                    > > New! SBC Yahoo! Dial - 1st Month Free & unlimited access
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > animalrightsdebateclub-unsubscribe@y...
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                    Service.
                    >
                    >
                    > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our hearts,
                    and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                    >
                    >
                    > ---------------------------------
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                  • Colleen Klaum
                    I don t have an attitude Ward. *Colleen* wclark1046 wrote: --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum ...
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jul 6, 2002
                      I don't have an attitude Ward. *Colleen*

                      wclark1046 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
                      wrote:
                      >
                      > My campaigning against HLS is my business too!!

                      Yes, and your "virtual sit-in" is cyber-thuggery. I'm willing to
                      bet you don't really know anything about what HLS actually does.

                      Mister know it all. And if I choose to share my info with you, so be
                      it. *Colleen*

                      Why won't you? Are you worried that I might prove you're being lied
                      to? If I could, would you change your attitude?

                      >
                      > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: --- In
                      animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
                      > wrote:
                      > >
                      > > I don't listen to anything PCRM has to say. I get my info
                      from
                      > other sources Ward. *Colleen*
                      >
                      > What are your sources, then? Tell us where you get your
                      > information. Your campaigning against HLS isn't encouraging.
                      >
                      > >
                      > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: Your sources aren't
                      reputable,
                      > Colleen. Dishonesty comes as
                      > > naturally to them as breathing. They aren't anything like
                      > > reputable. Go to Quackwatch.com and read their analysis of
                      PCRM.
                      > > You can go to the AMA's Web site, download their excellent (and
                      > > free) Policyfinder, and read what they say about PCRM as well.
                      > >
                      > > Do you think PCRM and PeTA are more reliable than the AMA?
                      > >
                      > > If so, why? What would you say if I showed you that they are
                      > lying
                      > > to you?
                      > >
                      > > If you want information about science, you have to go to the
                      > people
                      > > who are actually ***doing*** science.
                      > >
                      > > Do you know what "peer-review" is?
                      > >
                      > > --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum
                      <wildfawn1@y...>
                      > > wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > As a matter of fact Ward, I will stick with the info I get
                      > > from my sources. *Colleen*
                      > > >
                      > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: --- In
                      > > animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
                      > > > wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Do you have any facts to back this up Ward? *Colleen*
                      > > >
                      > > > Didn't you read the posts? I provided references. Real
                      > > references,
                      > > > to actual work done by actual scientists, and published in
                      peer-
                      > > > reviewed journals that you should be able to find in any
                      decent
                      > > > University library. You have all the information you need to
                      > look
                      > > > into it for yourself.
                      > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: Weebs, I've been
                      browsing
                      > > your
                      > > > Web site - as I predicted, it's full
                      > > > > of what have become traditional untruths told by AR
                      > advocates.
                      > > > > Here's one:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > "Question/attack: "If we stopped testing on animals the
                      > products
                      > > > > would be unsafe for humans."
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Response: a) Even with animal testing the products are not
                      > > always
                      > > > > safe for humans. In fact, there are drugs and treatments
                      > tested
                      > > on
                      > > > > animals that have proven unsafe for humans(i.e.
                      Thalidomide). "
                      > > > >
                      > > > > That's false, Weebs. Thalidomide was never tested for
                      > > > > teratogenicity prior to its release in Europe. You don't
                      know
                      > > why
                      > > > > it wasn't ever released in the US, do you? You have an FDA
                      > > > officer,
                      > > > > Frances Kelsey, to thank for that. Kelsey had suspected
                      that
                      > > > > thalidomide might have a teratogenic effect, as she had
                      > formally
                      > > > > studied teratogenicity - a fledgling science at that time.
                      > She
                      > > > was
                      > > > > right, and later tests proved it. Now, following that
                      tragedy
                      > > in
                      > > > > Europe, a host of tests proved that thalidomide produced
                      > > precisely
                      > > > > the same effects in a variety of mammals as it did in
                      humans.
                      > > > Those
                      > > > > tests can be referenced still at any decent University
                      library:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > 1.DiPaolo JA (1963). Congenital malformation in strain A
                      mice:
                      > > its
                      > > > > experimental production by thalidomide. JAMA vol.183: 139-
                      141
                      > > > > 2 King CTG & Kendrick FJ (1962). Teratogenic effects of
                      > > > thalidomide
                      > > > > in the Sprague Dawley rat. The Lancet: ii: 1116
                      > > > > 3. Homburger F, Chaube S, Eppenberger M, Bogdonoff PD and
                      > Nixon
                      > > CW
                      > > > > (1965). Susceptibility of certain inbred strains of hamsters
                      > to
                      > > > > teratogenic effects of thalidomide. Toxicol Appl Pharmaco
                      > vol.:
                      > > > 686-
                      > > > > 69
                      > > > >
                      > > > > 4. Hamilton WJ & Poswillo DE (1972). Limb reduction
                      anomalies
                      > > > > induced in the marmoset by thalidomide. J Anat vol.11:505-50
                      > > > >
                      > > > > 5. Hendrick AG, Axelrod LR & Clayborn LD (1966). Thalidomide
                      > > > > syndrome in baboons Natur vol. 210: 958-95
                      > > > >
                      > > > > By the way, Weebs, can you tell us what other effects -
                      beside
                      > > > limb
                      > > > > malformations - thalidomide has on fetuses? You can't, can
                      > you?
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Here's the inescapable conclusion:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > The teratogenic and embryotoxic effects of thalidomide are
                      > > caused
                      > > > by
                      > > > > a mutagenic DNA binding mechanism during the organogenetic
                      > stage
                      > > > of
                      > > > > embryo development.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > The mechanisms of embryo development in these stages are
                      > > identical
                      > > > > across the mammalian species.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Any teratogenic or embryotoxic test that produces results in
                      > > rats
                      > > > is
                      > > > > highly indicative of similar results in humans.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > The above referenced tests prove that to be the case.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Now, for the record, Weebs:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Please explain for us how the lack of application of these
                      > > highly
                      > > > > predictive tests prior to the release of thalidomide in the
                      > > > European
                      > > > > market translates into a failure of animal research, rather
                      > than
                      > > a
                      > > > > failure to apply sufficient animal research.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Or, to put it another way, please explain to us how it is
                      > > possible
                      > > > > that these test would not have revealed teratogenic and
                      > > > embryotoxic
                      > > > > effects before the release of thalidomide, but somehow,
                      > > > > miraculously, done so afterwards?
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > > > > animalrightsdebateclub-unsubscribe@y...
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                      > > > Service.
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our
                      > > hearts,
                      > > > and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > ---------------------------------
                      > > > > Do You Yahoo!?
                      > > > > New! SBC Yahoo! Dial - 1st Month Free & unlimited access
                      > > > >
                      > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > > > animalrightsdebateclub-unsubscribe@y...
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                      > > Service.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our
                      > hearts,
                      > > and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > ---------------------------------
                      > > > Do You Yahoo!?
                      > > > New! SBC Yahoo! Dial - 1st Month Free & unlimited access
                      > > >
                      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > > animalrightsdebateclub-unsubscribe@y...
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                      > Service.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our
                      hearts,
                      > and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ---------------------------------
                      > > Do You Yahoo!?
                      > > New! SBC Yahoo! Dial - 1st Month Free & unlimited access
                      > >
                      > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > animalrightsdebateclub-unsubscribe@y...
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                      Service.
                      >
                      >
                      > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our hearts,
                      and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                      >
                      >
                      > ---------------------------------
                      > Do You Yahoo!?
                      > New! SBC Yahoo! Dial - 1st Month Free & unlimited access
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                      To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      animalrightsdebateclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



                      Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.


                      "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our hearts, and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum


                      ---------------------------------
                      Do You Yahoo!?
                      New! SBC Yahoo! Dial - 1st Month Free & unlimited access

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • wclark1046
                      Sure you do - so do I. Everyone does. You obivously hold the opinion that the research done by organizations like HLS is either useless or cruel. In the
                      Message 10 of 19 , Jul 6, 2002
                        Sure you do - so do I. Everyone does. You obivously hold the
                        opinion that the research done by organizations like HLS is either
                        useless or cruel. In the vast majority of cases, it's neither.

                        --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > I don't have an attitude Ward. *Colleen*
                        >
                        > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: --- In
                        animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > My campaigning against HLS is my business too!!
                        >
                        > Yes, and your "virtual sit-in" is cyber-thuggery. I'm willing to
                        > bet you don't really know anything about what HLS actually does.
                        >
                        > Mister know it all. And if I choose to share my info with you, so
                        be
                        > it. *Colleen*
                        >
                        > Why won't you? Are you worried that I might prove you're being
                        lied
                        > to? If I could, would you change your attitude?
                        >
                        > >
                        > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: --- In
                        > animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
                        > > wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > I don't listen to anything PCRM has to say. I get my info
                        > from
                        > > other sources Ward. *Colleen*
                        > >
                        > > What are your sources, then? Tell us where you get your
                        > > information. Your campaigning against HLS isn't encouraging.
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: Your sources aren't
                        > reputable,
                        > > Colleen. Dishonesty comes as
                        > > > naturally to them as breathing. They aren't anything like
                        > > > reputable. Go to Quackwatch.com and read their analysis of
                        > PCRM.
                        > > > You can go to the AMA's Web site, download their excellent
                        (and
                        > > > free) Policyfinder, and read what they say about PCRM as well.
                        > > >
                        > > > Do you think PCRM and PeTA are more reliable than the AMA?
                        > > >
                        > > > If so, why? What would you say if I showed you that they are
                        > > lying
                        > > > to you?
                        > > >
                        > > > If you want information about science, you have to go to the
                        > > people
                        > > > who are actually ***doing*** science.
                        > > >
                        > > > Do you know what "peer-review" is?
                        > > >
                        > > > --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum
                        > <wildfawn1@y...>
                        > > > wrote:
                        > > > >
                        > > > > As a matter of fact Ward, I will stick with the info I
                        get
                        > > > from my sources. *Colleen*
                        > > > >
                        > > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: --- In
                        > > > animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
                        > > > > wrote:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Do you have any facts to back this up Ward? *Colleen*
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Didn't you read the posts? I provided references. Real
                        > > > references,
                        > > > > to actual work done by actual scientists, and published in
                        > peer-
                        > > > > reviewed journals that you should be able to find in any
                        > decent
                        > > > > University library. You have all the information you need
                        to
                        > > look
                        > > > > into it for yourself.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: Weebs, I've been
                        > browsing
                        > > > your
                        > > > > Web site - as I predicted, it's full
                        > > > > > of what have become traditional untruths told by AR
                        > > advocates.
                        > > > > > Here's one:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > "Question/attack: "If we stopped testing on animals the
                        > > products
                        > > > > > would be unsafe for humans."
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Response: a) Even with animal testing the products are not
                        > > > always
                        > > > > > safe for humans. In fact, there are drugs and treatments
                        > > tested
                        > > > on
                        > > > > > animals that have proven unsafe for humans(i.e.
                        > Thalidomide). "
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > That's false, Weebs. Thalidomide was never tested for
                        > > > > > teratogenicity prior to its release in Europe. You don't
                        > know
                        > > > why
                        > > > > > it wasn't ever released in the US, do you? You have an
                        FDA
                        > > > > officer,
                        > > > > > Frances Kelsey, to thank for that. Kelsey had suspected
                        > that
                        > > > > > thalidomide might have a teratogenic effect, as she had
                        > > formally
                        > > > > > studied teratogenicity - a fledgling science at that
                        time.
                        > > She
                        > > > > was
                        > > > > > right, and later tests proved it. Now, following that
                        > tragedy
                        > > > in
                        > > > > > Europe, a host of tests proved that thalidomide produced
                        > > > precisely
                        > > > > > the same effects in a variety of mammals as it did in
                        > humans.
                        > > > > Those
                        > > > > > tests can be referenced still at any decent University
                        > library:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > 1.DiPaolo JA (1963). Congenital malformation in strain A
                        > mice:
                        > > > its
                        > > > > > experimental production by thalidomide. JAMA vol.183: 139-
                        > 141
                        > > > > > 2 King CTG & Kendrick FJ (1962). Teratogenic effects of
                        > > > > thalidomide
                        > > > > > in the Sprague Dawley rat. The Lancet: ii: 1116
                        > > > > > 3. Homburger F, Chaube S, Eppenberger M, Bogdonoff PD and
                        > > Nixon
                        > > > CW
                        > > > > > (1965). Susceptibility of certain inbred strains of
                        hamsters
                        > > to
                        > > > > > teratogenic effects of thalidomide. Toxicol Appl Pharmaco
                        > > vol.:
                        > > > > 686-
                        > > > > > 69
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > 4. Hamilton WJ & Poswillo DE (1972). Limb reduction
                        > anomalies
                        > > > > > induced in the marmoset by thalidomide. J Anat vol.11:505-
                        50
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > 5. Hendrick AG, Axelrod LR & Clayborn LD (1966).
                        Thalidomide
                        > > > > > syndrome in baboons Natur vol. 210: 958-95
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > By the way, Weebs, can you tell us what other effects -
                        > beside
                        > > > > limb
                        > > > > > malformations - thalidomide has on fetuses? You can't,
                        can
                        > > you?
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Here's the inescapable conclusion:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > The teratogenic and embryotoxic effects of thalidomide are
                        > > > caused
                        > > > > by
                        > > > > > a mutagenic DNA binding mechanism during the organogenetic
                        > > stage
                        > > > > of
                        > > > > > embryo development.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > The mechanisms of embryo development in these stages are
                        > > > identical
                        > > > > > across the mammalian species.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Any teratogenic or embryotoxic test that produces results
                        in
                        > > > rats
                        > > > > is
                        > > > > > highly indicative of similar results in humans.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > The above referenced tests prove that to be the case.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Now, for the record, Weebs:
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Please explain for us how the lack of application of these
                        > > > highly
                        > > > > > predictive tests prior to the release of thalidomide in
                        the
                        > > > > European
                        > > > > > market translates into a failure of animal research,
                        rather
                        > > than
                        > > > a
                        > > > > > failure to apply sufficient animal research.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Or, to put it another way, please explain to us how it is
                        > > > possible
                        > > > > > that these test would not have revealed teratogenic and
                        > > > > embryotoxic
                        > > > > > effects before the release of thalidomide, but somehow,
                        > > > > > miraculously, done so afterwards?
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > > > > > animalrightsdebateclub-unsubscribe@y...
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
                        of
                        > > > > Service.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our
                        > > > hearts,
                        > > > > and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > ---------------------------------
                        > > > > > Do You Yahoo!?
                        > > > > > New! SBC Yahoo! Dial - 1st Month Free & unlimited access
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > > > > animalrightsdebateclub-unsubscribe@y...
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                        > > > Service.
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our
                        > > hearts,
                        > > > and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > ---------------------------------
                        > > > > Do You Yahoo!?
                        > > > > New! SBC Yahoo! Dial - 1st Month Free & unlimited access
                        > > > >
                        > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > > > animalrightsdebateclub-unsubscribe@y...
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                        > > Service.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our
                        > hearts,
                        > > and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > ---------------------------------
                        > > > Do You Yahoo!?
                        > > > New! SBC Yahoo! Dial - 1st Month Free & unlimited access
                        > > >
                        > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > > animalrightsdebateclub-unsubscribe@y...
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                        > Service.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our
                        hearts,
                        > and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ---------------------------------
                        > > Do You Yahoo!?
                        > > New! SBC Yahoo! Dial - 1st Month Free & unlimited access
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > animalrightsdebateclub-unsubscribe@y...
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                        Service.
                        >
                        >
                        > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our hearts,
                        and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                        >
                        >
                        > ---------------------------------
                        > Do You Yahoo!?
                        > New! SBC Yahoo! Dial - 1st Month Free & unlimited access
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Colleen Klaum
                        Well, my beliefs say HLS is cruel!! *Colleen* No, my brain tells me and my heart feels it, my emotions take over and sometimes my anger sets in. I calm down
                        Message 11 of 19 , Jul 6, 2002
                          Well, my beliefs say HLS is cruel!! *Colleen*
                          No, my brain tells me and my heart feels it, my emotions take over and sometimes my anger sets in. I calm down though, I would never do anything in a violent manner.

                          wclark1046 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: Sure you do - so do I. Everyone does. You obivously hold the
                          opinion that the research done by organizations like HLS is either
                          useless or cruel. In the vast majority of cases, it's neither.

                          --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
                          wrote:
                          >
                          > I don't have an attitude Ward. *Colleen*
                          >
                          > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: --- In
                          animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > My campaigning against HLS is my business too!!
                          >
                          > Yes, and your "virtual sit-in" is cyber-thuggery. I'm willing to
                          > bet you don't really know anything about what HLS actually does.
                          >
                          > Mister know it all. And if I choose to share my info with you, so
                          be
                          > it. *Colleen*
                          >
                          > Why won't you? Are you worried that I might prove you're being
                          lied
                          > to? If I could, would you change your attitude?
                          >
                          > >
                          > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: --- In
                          > animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
                          > > wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > I don't listen to anything PCRM has to say. I get my info
                          > from
                          > > other sources Ward. *Colleen*
                          > >
                          > > What are your sources, then? Tell us where you get your
                          > > information. Your campaigning against HLS isn't encouraging.
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: Your sources aren't
                          > reputable,
                          > > Colleen. Dishonesty comes as
                          > > > naturally to them as breathing. They aren't anything like
                          > > > reputable. Go to Quackwatch.com and read their analysis of
                          > PCRM.
                          > > > You can go to the AMA's Web site, download their excellent
                          (and
                          > > > free) Policyfinder, and read what they say about PCRM as well.
                          > > >
                          > > > Do you think PCRM and PeTA are more reliable than the AMA?
                          > > >
                          > > > If so, why? What would you say if I showed you that they are
                          > > lying
                          > > > to you?
                          > > >
                          > > > If you want information about science, you have to go to the
                          > > people
                          > > > who are actually ***doing*** science.
                          > > >
                          > > > Do you know what "peer-review" is?
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum
                          > <wildfawn1@y...>
                          > > > wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > As a matter of fact Ward, I will stick with the info I
                          get
                          > > > from my sources. *Colleen*
                          > > > >
                          > > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: --- In
                          > > > animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
                          > > > > wrote:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Do you have any facts to back this up Ward? *Colleen*
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Didn't you read the posts? I provided references. Real
                          > > > references,
                          > > > > to actual work done by actual scientists, and published in
                          > peer-
                          > > > > reviewed journals that you should be able to find in any
                          > decent
                          > > > > University library. You have all the information you need
                          to
                          > > look
                          > > > > into it for yourself.
                          > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: Weebs, I've been
                          > browsing
                          > > > your
                          > > > > Web site - as I predicted, it's full
                          > > > > > of what have become traditional untruths told by AR
                          > > advocates.
                          > > > > > Here's one:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > "Question/attack: "If we stopped testing on animals the
                          > > products
                          > > > > > would be unsafe for humans."
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Response: a) Even with animal testing the products are not
                          > > > always
                          > > > > > safe for humans. In fact, there are drugs and treatments
                          > > tested
                          > > > on
                          > > > > > animals that have proven unsafe for humans(i.e.
                          > Thalidomide). "
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > That's false, Weebs. Thalidomide was never tested for
                          > > > > > teratogenicity prior to its release in Europe. You don't
                          > know
                          > > > why
                          > > > > > it wasn't ever released in the US, do you? You have an
                          FDA
                          > > > > officer,
                          > > > > > Frances Kelsey, to thank for that. Kelsey had suspected
                          > that
                          > > > > > thalidomide might have a teratogenic effect, as she had
                          > > formally
                          > > > > > studied teratogenicity - a fledgling science at that
                          time.
                          > > She
                          > > > > was
                          > > > > > right, and later tests proved it. Now, following that
                          > tragedy
                          > > > in
                          > > > > > Europe, a host of tests proved that thalidomide produced
                          > > > precisely
                          > > > > > the same effects in a variety of mammals as it did in
                          > humans.
                          > > > > Those
                          > > > > > tests can be referenced still at any decent University
                          > library:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > 1.DiPaolo JA (1963). Congenital malformation in strain A
                          > mice:
                          > > > its
                          > > > > > experimental production by thalidomide. JAMA vol.183: 139-
                          > 141
                          > > > > > 2 King CTG & Kendrick FJ (1962). Teratogenic effects of
                          > > > > thalidomide
                          > > > > > in the Sprague Dawley rat. The Lancet: ii: 1116
                          > > > > > 3. Homburger F, Chaube S, Eppenberger M, Bogdonoff PD and
                          > > Nixon
                          > > > CW
                          > > > > > (1965). Susceptibility of certain inbred strains of
                          hamsters
                          > > to
                          > > > > > teratogenic effects of thalidomide. Toxicol Appl Pharmaco
                          > > vol.:
                          > > > > 686-
                          > > > > > 69
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > 4. Hamilton WJ & Poswillo DE (1972). Limb reduction
                          > anomalies
                          > > > > > induced in the marmoset by thalidomide. J Anat vol.11:505-
                          50
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > 5. Hendrick AG, Axelrod LR & Clayborn LD (1966).
                          Thalidomide
                          > > > > > syndrome in baboons Natur vol. 210: 958-95
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > By the way, Weebs, can you tell us what other effects -
                          > beside
                          > > > > limb
                          > > > > > malformations - thalidomide has on fetuses? You can't,
                          can
                          > > you?
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Here's the inescapable conclusion:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > The teratogenic and embryotoxic effects of thalidomide are
                          > > > caused
                          > > > > by
                          > > > > > a mutagenic DNA binding mechanism during the organogenetic
                          > > stage
                          > > > > of
                          > > > > > embryo development.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > The mechanisms of embryo development in these stages are
                          > > > identical
                          > > > > > across the mammalian species.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Any teratogenic or embryotoxic test that produces results
                          in
                          > > > rats
                          > > > > is
                          > > > > > highly indicative of similar results in humans.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > The above referenced tests prove that to be the case.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Now, for the record, Weebs:
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Please explain for us how the lack of application of these
                          > > > highly
                          > > > > > predictive tests prior to the release of thalidomide in
                          the
                          > > > > European
                          > > > > > market translates into a failure of animal research,
                          rather
                          > > than
                          > > > a
                          > > > > > failure to apply sufficient animal research.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Or, to put it another way, please explain to us how it is
                          > > > possible
                          > > > > > that these test would not have revealed teratogenic and
                          > > > > embryotoxic
                          > > > > > effects before the release of thalidomide, but somehow,
                          > > > > > miraculously, done so afterwards?
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > > > > > animalrightsdebateclub-unsubscribe@y...
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
                          of
                          > > > > Service.
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our
                          > > > hearts,
                          > > > > and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > >
                          > > > > > ---------------------------------
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                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                          > > > Service.
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > > > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our
                          > > hearts,
                          > > > and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
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                          > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                          > > Service.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our
                          > hearts,
                          > > and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > ---------------------------------
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                          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
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                          > >
                          > >
                          > > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our
                          hearts,
                          > and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                          > >
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                        • wclark1046
                          ... What do you base those beliefs on? ... take over and sometimes my anger sets in. Don t you think that rationality is a better source for ethical
                          Message 12 of 19 , Jul 6, 2002
                            --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
                            wrote:
                            >
                            > Well, my beliefs say HLS is cruel!! *Colleen*>>

                            What do you base those beliefs on?

                            >> No, my brain tells me and my heart feels it, my emotions
                            take over and sometimes my anger sets in.>>

                            Don't you think that rationality is a better source for ethical
                            decision-making than uncontrolled emotion?

                            >> I calm down though, I would never do anything in a violent
                            manner.>>

                            You've taken part in cyber-thuggery. It's not violent, but it is
                            childish and irresponsible.

                            >
                            > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: Sure you do - so do I.
                            Everyone does. You obivously hold the
                            > opinion that the research done by organizations like HLS is either
                            > useless or cruel. In the vast majority of cases, it's neither.
                            >
                            > --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
                            > wrote:
                            > >
                            > > I don't have an attitude Ward. *Colleen*
                            > >
                            > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: --- In
                            > animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
                            > > wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > My campaigning against HLS is my business too!!
                            > >
                            > > Yes, and your "virtual sit-in" is cyber-thuggery. I'm willing
                            to
                            > > bet you don't really know anything about what HLS actually does.
                            > >
                            > > Mister know it all. And if I choose to share my info with you,
                            so
                            > be
                            > > it. *Colleen*
                            > >
                            > > Why won't you? Are you worried that I might prove you're being
                            > lied
                            > > to? If I could, would you change your attitude?
                            > >
                            > > >
                            > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: --- In
                            > > animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
                            > > > wrote:
                            > > > >
                            > > > > I don't listen to anything PCRM has to say. I get my
                            info
                            > > from
                            > > > other sources Ward. *Colleen*
                            > > >
                            > > > What are your sources, then? Tell us where you get your
                            > > > information. Your campaigning against HLS isn't encouraging.
                            > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: Your sources aren't
                            > > reputable,
                            > > > Colleen. Dishonesty comes as
                            > > > > naturally to them as breathing. They aren't anything like
                            > > > > reputable. Go to Quackwatch.com and read their analysis of
                            > > PCRM.
                            > > > > You can go to the AMA's Web site, download their excellent
                            > (and
                            > > > > free) Policyfinder, and read what they say about PCRM as
                            well.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Do you think PCRM and PeTA are more reliable than the AMA?
                            > > > >
                            > > > > If so, why? What would you say if I showed you that they
                            are
                            > > > lying
                            > > > > to you?
                            > > > >
                            > > > > If you want information about science, you have to go to the
                            > > > people
                            > > > > who are actually ***doing*** science.
                            > > > >
                            > > > > Do you know what "peer-review" is?
                            > > > >
                            > > > > --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum
                            > > <wildfawn1@y...>
                            > > > > wrote:
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > As a matter of fact Ward, I will stick with the info I
                            > get
                            > > > > from my sources. *Colleen*
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: --- In
                            > > > > animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
                            > > > > > wrote:
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Do you have any facts to back this up Ward? *Colleen*
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > Didn't you read the posts? I provided references. Real
                            > > > > references,
                            > > > > > to actual work done by actual scientists, and published in
                            > > peer-
                            > > > > > reviewed journals that you should be able to find in any
                            > > decent
                            > > > > > University library. You have all the information you need
                            > to
                            > > > look
                            > > > > > into it for yourself.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: Weebs, I've been
                            > > browsing
                            > > > > your
                            > > > > > Web site - as I predicted, it's full
                            > > > > > > of what have become traditional untruths told by AR
                            > > > advocates.
                            > > > > > > Here's one:
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > "Question/attack: "If we stopped testing on animals the
                            > > > products
                            > > > > > > would be unsafe for humans."
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Response: a) Even with animal testing the products are
                            not
                            > > > > always
                            > > > > > > safe for humans. In fact, there are drugs and treatments
                            > > > tested
                            > > > > on
                            > > > > > > animals that have proven unsafe for humans(i.e.
                            > > Thalidomide). "
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > That's false, Weebs. Thalidomide was never tested for
                            > > > > > > teratogenicity prior to its release in Europe. You
                            don't
                            > > know
                            > > > > why
                            > > > > > > it wasn't ever released in the US, do you? You have an
                            > FDA
                            > > > > > officer,
                            > > > > > > Frances Kelsey, to thank for that. Kelsey had suspected
                            > > that
                            > > > > > > thalidomide might have a teratogenic effect, as she had
                            > > > formally
                            > > > > > > studied teratogenicity - a fledgling science at that
                            > time.
                            > > > She
                            > > > > > was
                            > > > > > > right, and later tests proved it. Now, following that
                            > > tragedy
                            > > > > in
                            > > > > > > Europe, a host of tests proved that thalidomide produced
                            > > > > precisely
                            > > > > > > the same effects in a variety of mammals as it did in
                            > > humans.
                            > > > > > Those
                            > > > > > > tests can be referenced still at any decent University
                            > > library:
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > 1.DiPaolo JA (1963). Congenital malformation in strain A
                            > > mice:
                            > > > > its
                            > > > > > > experimental production by thalidomide. JAMA vol.183:
                            139-
                            > > 141
                            > > > > > > 2 King CTG & Kendrick FJ (1962). Teratogenic effects of
                            > > > > > thalidomide
                            > > > > > > in the Sprague Dawley rat. The Lancet: ii: 1116
                            > > > > > > 3. Homburger F, Chaube S, Eppenberger M, Bogdonoff PD
                            and
                            > > > Nixon
                            > > > > CW
                            > > > > > > (1965). Susceptibility of certain inbred strains of
                            > hamsters
                            > > > to
                            > > > > > > teratogenic effects of thalidomide. Toxicol Appl
                            Pharmaco
                            > > > vol.:
                            > > > > > 686-
                            > > > > > > 69
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > 4. Hamilton WJ & Poswillo DE (1972). Limb reduction
                            > > anomalies
                            > > > > > > induced in the marmoset by thalidomide. J Anat
                            vol.11:505-
                            > 50
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > 5. Hendrick AG, Axelrod LR & Clayborn LD (1966).
                            > Thalidomide
                            > > > > > > syndrome in baboons Natur vol. 210: 958-95
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > By the way, Weebs, can you tell us what other effects -
                            > > beside
                            > > > > > limb
                            > > > > > > malformations - thalidomide has on fetuses? You can't,
                            > can
                            > > > you?
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Here's the inescapable conclusion:
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > The teratogenic and embryotoxic effects of thalidomide
                            are
                            > > > > caused
                            > > > > > by
                            > > > > > > a mutagenic DNA binding mechanism during the
                            organogenetic
                            > > > stage
                            > > > > > of
                            > > > > > > embryo development.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > The mechanisms of embryo development in these stages are
                            > > > > identical
                            > > > > > > across the mammalian species.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Any teratogenic or embryotoxic test that produces
                            results
                            > in
                            > > > > rats
                            > > > > > is
                            > > > > > > highly indicative of similar results in humans.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > The above referenced tests prove that to be the case.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Now, for the record, Weebs:
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Please explain for us how the lack of application of
                            these
                            > > > > highly
                            > > > > > > predictive tests prior to the release of thalidomide in
                            > the
                            > > > > > European
                            > > > > > > market translates into a failure of animal research,
                            > rather
                            > > > than
                            > > > > a
                            > > > > > > failure to apply sufficient animal research.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Or, to put it another way, please explain to us how it
                            is
                            > > > > possible
                            > > > > > > that these test would not have revealed teratogenic and
                            > > > > > embryotoxic
                            > > > > > > effects before the release of thalidomide, but somehow,
                            > > > > > > miraculously, done so afterwards?
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > > > > > > animalrightsdebateclub-unsubscribe@y...
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
                            > of
                            > > > > > Service.
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to
                            our
                            > > > > hearts,
                            > > > > > and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                            > > > > > >
                            > > > > > >
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                            > > > > >
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                            of
                            > > > > Service.
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our
                            > > > hearts,
                            > > > > and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                            > > > > >
                            > > > > >
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                            > > > Service.
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
                            > > > > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our
                            > > hearts,
                            > > > and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                            > > > >
                            > > > >
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                            > > >
                            > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                            > > Service.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our
                            > hearts,
                            > > and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > ---------------------------------
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                            > >
                            > >
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                            > Service.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our
                            hearts,
                            > and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                            > >
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                          • purrrrrshia
                            I don t consider the sit-in childish or irresponsible. It is what I believe in, my way of helping. What I base my beliefs on. What I read, what I see. Again,
                            Message 13 of 19 , Jul 6, 2002
                              I don't consider the sit-in childish or irresponsible. It is what I
                              believe in, my way of helping.

                              What I base my beliefs on. What I read, what I see. Again, we differ
                              here Ward.

                              I am a very rational person Ward, it takes alot to make me mad. I do
                              believe I explained myself there.


                              *Colleen*






                              --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote:
                              > --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
                              > wrote:
                              > >
                              > > Well, my beliefs say HLS is cruel!! *Colleen*>>
                              >
                              > What do you base those beliefs on?
                              >
                              > >> No, my brain tells me and my heart feels it, my emotions
                              > take over and sometimes my anger sets in.>>
                              >
                              > Don't you think that rationality is a better source for ethical
                              > decision-making than uncontrolled emotion?
                              >
                              > >> I calm down though, I would never do anything in a violent
                              > manner.>>
                              >
                              > You've taken part in cyber-thuggery. It's not violent, but it is
                              > childish and irresponsible.
                              >
                              > >
                              > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: Sure you do - so do I.
                              > Everyone does. You obivously hold the
                              > > opinion that the research done by organizations like HLS is
                              either
                              > > useless or cruel. In the vast majority of cases, it's neither.
                              > >
                              > > --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum
                              <wildfawn1@y...>
                              > > wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > > I don't have an attitude Ward. *Colleen*
                              > > >
                              > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: --- In
                              > > animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
                              > > > wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > My campaigning against HLS is my business too!!
                              > > >
                              > > > Yes, and your "virtual sit-in" is cyber-thuggery. I'm willing
                              > to
                              > > > bet you don't really know anything about what HLS actually does.
                              > > >
                              > > > Mister know it all. And if I choose to share my info with you,
                              > so
                              > > be
                              > > > it. *Colleen*
                              > > >
                              > > > Why won't you? Are you worried that I might prove you're being
                              > > lied
                              > > > to? If I could, would you change your attitude?
                              > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: --- In
                              > > > animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
                              > > > > wrote:
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > I don't listen to anything PCRM has to say. I get my
                              > info
                              > > > from
                              > > > > other sources Ward. *Colleen*
                              > > > >
                              > > > > What are your sources, then? Tell us where you get your
                              > > > > information. Your campaigning against HLS isn't encouraging.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: Your sources aren't
                              > > > reputable,
                              > > > > Colleen. Dishonesty comes as
                              > > > > > naturally to them as breathing. They aren't anything like
                              > > > > > reputable. Go to Quackwatch.com and read their analysis of
                              > > > PCRM.
                              > > > > > You can go to the AMA's Web site, download their excellent
                              > > (and
                              > > > > > free) Policyfinder, and read what they say about PCRM as
                              > well.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Do you think PCRM and PeTA are more reliable than the AMA?
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > If so, why? What would you say if I showed you that they
                              > are
                              > > > > lying
                              > > > > > to you?
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > If you want information about science, you have to go to
                              the
                              > > > > people
                              > > > > > who are actually ***doing*** science.
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > Do you know what "peer-review" is?
                              > > > > >
                              > > > > > --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum
                              > > > <wildfawn1@y...>
                              > > > > > wrote:
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > As a matter of fact Ward, I will stick with the info
                              I
                              > > get
                              > > > > > from my sources. *Colleen*
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: --- In
                              > > > > > animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
                              > > > > > > wrote:
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > Do you have any facts to back this up Ward?
                              *Colleen*
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > Didn't you read the posts? I provided references. Real
                              > > > > > references,
                              > > > > > > to actual work done by actual scientists, and published
                              in
                              > > > peer-
                              > > > > > > reviewed journals that you should be able to find in any
                              > > > decent
                              > > > > > > University library. You have all the information you
                              need
                              > > to
                              > > > > look
                              > > > > > > into it for yourself.
                              > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: Weebs, I've been
                              > > > browsing
                              > > > > > your
                              > > > > > > Web site - as I predicted, it's full
                              > > > > > > > of what have become traditional untruths told by AR
                              > > > > advocates.
                              > > > > > > > Here's one:
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > "Question/attack: "If we stopped testing on animals the
                              > > > > products
                              > > > > > > > would be unsafe for humans."
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > Response: a) Even with animal testing the products are
                              > not
                              > > > > > always
                              > > > > > > > safe for humans. In fact, there are drugs and
                              treatments
                              > > > > tested
                              > > > > > on
                              > > > > > > > animals that have proven unsafe for humans(i.e.
                              > > > Thalidomide). "
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > That's false, Weebs. Thalidomide was never tested for
                              > > > > > > > teratogenicity prior to its release in Europe. You
                              > don't
                              > > > know
                              > > > > > why
                              > > > > > > > it wasn't ever released in the US, do you? You have an
                              > > FDA
                              > > > > > > officer,
                              > > > > > > > Frances Kelsey, to thank for that. Kelsey had
                              suspected
                              > > > that
                              > > > > > > > thalidomide might have a teratogenic effect, as she had
                              > > > > formally
                              > > > > > > > studied teratogenicity - a fledgling science at that
                              > > time.
                              > > > > She
                              > > > > > > was
                              > > > > > > > right, and later tests proved it. Now, following that
                              > > > tragedy
                              > > > > > in
                              > > > > > > > Europe, a host of tests proved that thalidomide
                              produced
                              > > > > > precisely
                              > > > > > > > the same effects in a variety of mammals as it did in
                              > > > humans.
                              > > > > > > Those
                              > > > > > > > tests can be referenced still at any decent University
                              > > > library:
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > 1.DiPaolo JA (1963). Congenital malformation in strain
                              A
                              > > > mice:
                              > > > > > its
                              > > > > > > > experimental production by thalidomide. JAMA vol.183:
                              > 139-
                              > > > 141
                              > > > > > > > 2 King CTG & Kendrick FJ (1962). Teratogenic effects of
                              > > > > > > thalidomide
                              > > > > > > > in the Sprague Dawley rat. The Lancet: ii: 1116
                              > > > > > > > 3. Homburger F, Chaube S, Eppenberger M, Bogdonoff PD
                              > and
                              > > > > Nixon
                              > > > > > CW
                              > > > > > > > (1965). Susceptibility of certain inbred strains of
                              > > hamsters
                              > > > > to
                              > > > > > > > teratogenic effects of thalidomide. Toxicol Appl
                              > Pharmaco
                              > > > > vol.:
                              > > > > > > 686-
                              > > > > > > > 69
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > 4. Hamilton WJ & Poswillo DE (1972). Limb reduction
                              > > > anomalies
                              > > > > > > > induced in the marmoset by thalidomide. J Anat
                              > vol.11:505-
                              > > 50
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > 5. Hendrick AG, Axelrod LR & Clayborn LD (1966).
                              > > Thalidomide
                              > > > > > > > syndrome in baboons Natur vol. 210: 958-95
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > By the way, Weebs, can you tell us what other effects -
                              > > > beside
                              > > > > > > limb
                              > > > > > > > malformations - thalidomide has on fetuses? You can't,
                              > > can
                              > > > > you?
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > Here's the inescapable conclusion:
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > The teratogenic and embryotoxic effects of thalidomide
                              > are
                              > > > > > caused
                              > > > > > > by
                              > > > > > > > a mutagenic DNA binding mechanism during the
                              > organogenetic
                              > > > > stage
                              > > > > > > of
                              > > > > > > > embryo development.
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > The mechanisms of embryo development in these stages
                              are
                              > > > > > identical
                              > > > > > > > across the mammalian species.
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > Any teratogenic or embryotoxic test that produces
                              > results
                              > > in
                              > > > > > rats
                              > > > > > > is
                              > > > > > > > highly indicative of similar results in humans.
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > The above referenced tests prove that to be the case.
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > Now, for the record, Weebs:
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > Please explain for us how the lack of application of
                              > these
                              > > > > > highly
                              > > > > > > > predictive tests prior to the release of thalidomide in
                              > > the
                              > > > > > > European
                              > > > > > > > market translates into a failure of animal research,
                              > > rather
                              > > > > than
                              > > > > > a
                              > > > > > > > failure to apply sufficient animal research.
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > Or, to put it another way, please explain to us how it
                              > is
                              > > > > > possible
                              > > > > > > > that these test would not have revealed teratogenic and
                              > > > > > > embryotoxic
                              > > > > > > > effects before the release of thalidomide, but somehow,
                              > > > > > > > miraculously, done so afterwards?
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              > > > > > > > animalrightsdebateclub-unsubscribe@y...
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >
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                              Terms
                              > > of
                              > > > > > > Service.
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to
                              > our
                              > > > > > hearts,
                              > > > > > > and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                              > > > > > > >
                              > > > > > > >
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                              > > > > > > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to
                              our
                              > > > > hearts,
                              > > > > > and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                              > > > > > >
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                              > > > hearts,
                              > > > > and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
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                              > > > > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our
                              > > hearts,
                              > > > and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                              > > > >
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                            • wclark1046
                              ... I ... Of course it is. You re attempting to do harm, intentionally, to a law-abiding corporation that you happen to disagree with for purely emotional
                              Message 14 of 19 , Jul 6, 2002
                                --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., "purrrrrshia" <wildfawn1@y...>
                                wrote:
                                > I don't consider the sit-in childish or irresponsible. It is what
                                I
                                > believe in, my way of helping.>>

                                Of course it is. You're attempting to do harm, intentionally, to a
                                law-abiding corporation that you happen to disagree with for purely
                                emotional reasons.

                                >
                                > What I base my beliefs on. What I read, what I see. Again, we
                                differ
                                > here Ward.

                                Mostly in the area of rational analysis of ideas, I suspect.

                                >
                                > I am a very rational person Ward, it takes alot to make me mad. I
                                do
                                > believe I explained myself there.

                                Have you examined both sides of this very complex issue?

                                You still haven't told us where you get your information re: the use
                                of animals in research and medicine.


                                >
                                >
                                > *Colleen*
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., wclark1046 <no_reply@y...>
                                wrote:
                                > > --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum
                                <wildfawn1@y...>
                                > > wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > Well, my beliefs say HLS is cruel!! *Colleen*>>
                                > >
                                > > What do you base those beliefs on?
                                > >
                                > > >> No, my brain tells me and my heart feels it, my
                                emotions
                                > > take over and sometimes my anger sets in.>>
                                > >
                                > > Don't you think that rationality is a better source for ethical
                                > > decision-making than uncontrolled emotion?
                                > >
                                > > >> I calm down though, I would never do anything in a violent
                                > > manner.>>
                                > >
                                > > You've taken part in cyber-thuggery. It's not violent, but it
                                is
                                > > childish and irresponsible.
                                > >
                                > > >
                                > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: Sure you do - so do I.
                                > > Everyone does. You obivously hold the
                                > > > opinion that the research done by organizations like HLS is
                                > either
                                > > > useless or cruel. In the vast majority of cases, it's neither.
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum
                                > <wildfawn1@y...>
                                > > > wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > I don't have an attitude Ward. *Colleen*
                                > > > >
                                > > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: --- In
                                > > > animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
                                > > > > wrote:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > My campaigning against HLS is my business too!!
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Yes, and your "virtual sit-in" is cyber-thuggery. I'm
                                willing
                                > > to
                                > > > > bet you don't really know anything about what HLS actually
                                does.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Mister know it all. And if I choose to share my info with
                                you,
                                > > so
                                > > > be
                                > > > > it. *Colleen*
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Why won't you? Are you worried that I might prove you're
                                being
                                > > > lied
                                > > > > to? If I could, would you change your attitude?
                                > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: --- In
                                > > > > animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
                                > > > > > wrote:
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > I don't listen to anything PCRM has to say. I get my
                                > > info
                                > > > > from
                                > > > > > other sources Ward. *Colleen*
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > What are your sources, then? Tell us where you get your
                                > > > > > information. Your campaigning against HLS isn't
                                encouraging.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: Your sources aren't
                                > > > > reputable,
                                > > > > > Colleen. Dishonesty comes as
                                > > > > > > naturally to them as breathing. They aren't anything
                                like
                                > > > > > > reputable. Go to Quackwatch.com and read their analysis
                                of
                                > > > > PCRM.
                                > > > > > > You can go to the AMA's Web site, download their
                                excellent
                                > > > (and
                                > > > > > > free) Policyfinder, and read what they say about PCRM as
                                > > well.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Do you think PCRM and PeTA are more reliable than the
                                AMA?
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > If so, why? What would you say if I showed you that
                                they
                                > > are
                                > > > > > lying
                                > > > > > > to you?
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > If you want information about science, you have to go to
                                > the
                                > > > > > people
                                > > > > > > who are actually ***doing*** science.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Do you know what "peer-review" is?
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum
                                > > > > <wildfawn1@y...>
                                > > > > > > wrote:
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > As a matter of fact Ward, I will stick with the
                                info
                                > I
                                > > > get
                                > > > > > > from my sources. *Colleen*
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: --- In
                                > > > > > > animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum
                                <wildfawn1@y...>
                                > > > > > > > wrote:
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > Do you have any facts to back this up Ward?
                                > *Colleen*
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > Didn't you read the posts? I provided references.
                                Real
                                > > > > > > references,
                                > > > > > > > to actual work done by actual scientists, and
                                published
                                > in
                                > > > > peer-
                                > > > > > > > reviewed journals that you should be able to find in
                                any
                                > > > > decent
                                > > > > > > > University library. You have all the information you
                                > need
                                > > > to
                                > > > > > look
                                > > > > > > > into it for yourself.
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: Weebs, I've been
                                > > > > browsing
                                > > > > > > your
                                > > > > > > > Web site - as I predicted, it's full
                                > > > > > > > > of what have become traditional untruths told by AR
                                > > > > > advocates.
                                > > > > > > > > Here's one:
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > "Question/attack: "If we stopped testing on animals
                                the
                                > > > > > products
                                > > > > > > > > would be unsafe for humans."
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > Response: a) Even with animal testing the products
                                are
                                > > not
                                > > > > > > always
                                > > > > > > > > safe for humans. In fact, there are drugs and
                                > treatments
                                > > > > > tested
                                > > > > > > on
                                > > > > > > > > animals that have proven unsafe for humans(i.e.
                                > > > > Thalidomide). "
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > That's false, Weebs. Thalidomide was never tested
                                for
                                > > > > > > > > teratogenicity prior to its release in Europe. You
                                > > don't
                                > > > > know
                                > > > > > > why
                                > > > > > > > > it wasn't ever released in the US, do you? You have
                                an
                                > > > FDA
                                > > > > > > > officer,
                                > > > > > > > > Frances Kelsey, to thank for that. Kelsey had
                                > suspected
                                > > > > that
                                > > > > > > > > thalidomide might have a teratogenic effect, as she
                                had
                                > > > > > formally
                                > > > > > > > > studied teratogenicity - a fledgling science at that
                                > > > time.
                                > > > > > She
                                > > > > > > > was
                                > > > > > > > > right, and later tests proved it. Now, following
                                that
                                > > > > tragedy
                                > > > > > > in
                                > > > > > > > > Europe, a host of tests proved that thalidomide
                                > produced
                                > > > > > > precisely
                                > > > > > > > > the same effects in a variety of mammals as it did
                                in
                                > > > > humans.
                                > > > > > > > Those
                                > > > > > > > > tests can be referenced still at any decent
                                University
                                > > > > library:
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > 1.DiPaolo JA (1963). Congenital malformation in
                                strain
                                > A
                                > > > > mice:
                                > > > > > > its
                                > > > > > > > > experimental production by thalidomide. JAMA
                                vol.183:
                                > > 139-
                                > > > > 141
                                > > > > > > > > 2 King CTG & Kendrick FJ (1962). Teratogenic effects
                                of
                                > > > > > > > thalidomide
                                > > > > > > > > in the Sprague Dawley rat. The Lancet: ii: 1116
                                > > > > > > > > 3. Homburger F, Chaube S, Eppenberger M, Bogdonoff
                                PD
                                > > and
                                > > > > > Nixon
                                > > > > > > CW
                                > > > > > > > > (1965). Susceptibility of certain inbred strains of
                                > > > hamsters
                                > > > > > to
                                > > > > > > > > teratogenic effects of thalidomide. Toxicol Appl
                                > > Pharmaco
                                > > > > > vol.:
                                > > > > > > > 686-
                                > > > > > > > > 69
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > 4. Hamilton WJ & Poswillo DE (1972). Limb reduction
                                > > > > anomalies
                                > > > > > > > > induced in the marmoset by thalidomide. J Anat
                                > > vol.11:505-
                                > > > 50
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > 5. Hendrick AG, Axelrod LR & Clayborn LD (1966).
                                > > > Thalidomide
                                > > > > > > > > syndrome in baboons Natur vol. 210: 958-95
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > By the way, Weebs, can you tell us what other
                                effects -
                                > > > > beside
                                > > > > > > > limb
                                > > > > > > > > malformations - thalidomide has on fetuses? You
                                can't,
                                > > > can
                                > > > > > you?
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > Here's the inescapable conclusion:
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > The teratogenic and embryotoxic effects of
                                thalidomide
                                > > are
                                > > > > > > caused
                                > > > > > > > by
                                > > > > > > > > a mutagenic DNA binding mechanism during the
                                > > organogenetic
                                > > > > > stage
                                > > > > > > > of
                                > > > > > > > > embryo development.
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > The mechanisms of embryo development in these stages
                                > are
                                > > > > > > identical
                                > > > > > > > > across the mammalian species.
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > Any teratogenic or embryotoxic test that produces
                                > > results
                                > > > in
                                > > > > > > rats
                                > > > > > > > is
                                > > > > > > > > highly indicative of similar results in humans.
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > The above referenced tests prove that to be the case.
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > Now, for the record, Weebs:
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > Please explain for us how the lack of application of
                                > > these
                                > > > > > > highly
                                > > > > > > > > predictive tests prior to the release of thalidomide
                                in
                                > > > the
                                > > > > > > > European
                                > > > > > > > > market translates into a failure of animal research,
                                > > > rather
                                > > > > > than
                                > > > > > > a
                                > > > > > > > > failure to apply sufficient animal research.
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > Or, to put it another way, please explain to us how
                                it
                                > > is
                                > > > > > > possible
                                > > > > > > > > that these test would not have revealed teratogenic
                                and
                                > > > > > > > embryotoxic
                                > > > > > > > > effects before the release of thalidomide, but
                                somehow,
                                > > > > > > > > miraculously, done so afterwards?
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                > > > > > > > > animalrightsdebateclub-unsubscribe@y...
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                                > Terms
                                > > > of
                                > > > > > > > Service.
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love
                                to
                                > > our
                                > > > > > > hearts,
                                > > > > > > > and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------
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                                > > > > > > > > New! SBC Yahoo! Dial - 1st Month Free & unlimited
                                access
                                > > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                > > > > > > > animalrightsdebateclub-unsubscribe@y...
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                                Terms
                                > > of
                                > > > > > > Service.
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to
                                > our
                                > > > > > hearts,
                                > > > > > > and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > ---------------------------------
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                                > > > > > > > New! SBC Yahoo! Dial - 1st Month Free & unlimited
                                access
                                > > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                > > > > > > animalrightsdebateclub-unsubscribe@y...
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
                                of
                                > > > > > Service.
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to
                                our
                                > > > > hearts,
                                > > > > > and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > >
                                > > > > > > ---------------------------------
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                                > > > > > > New! SBC Yahoo! Dial - 1st Month Free & unlimited access
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                                > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                > > > > > animalrightsdebateclub-unsubscribe@y...
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
                                of
                                > > > > Service.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our
                                > > > hearts,
                                > > > > and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > ---------------------------------
                                > > > > > Do You Yahoo!?
                                > > > > > New! SBC Yahoo! Dial - 1st Month Free & unlimited access
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                > > > > animalrightsdebateclub-unsubscribe@y...
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                                > > > Service.
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our
                                > > hearts,
                                > > > and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > ---------------------------------
                                > > > > Do You Yahoo!?
                                > > > > New! SBC Yahoo! Dial - 1st Month Free & unlimited access
                                > > > >
                                > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                > > > animalrightsdebateclub-unsubscribe@y...
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                                > > Service.
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our
                                > hearts,
                                > > and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > ---------------------------------
                                > > > Do You Yahoo!?
                                > > > New! SBC Yahoo! Dial - 1st Month Free & unlimited access
                                > > >
                                > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Colleen Klaum
                                Not just for emotional reasons Ward. And I have looked at both sides Ward, even wrote a letter to HLS and I am still waiting for a response and this was a few
                                Message 15 of 19 , Jul 6, 2002
                                  Not just for emotional reasons Ward. And I have looked at both sides Ward, even wrote a letter to HLS and I am still waiting for a response and this was a few weeks ago. I get my info from welfare resources, lab resources and other resources as well. *Colleen*


                                  wclark1046 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., "purrrrrshia" <wildfawn1@y...>
                                  wrote:
                                  > I don't consider the sit-in childish or irresponsible. It is what
                                  I
                                  > believe in, my way of helping.>>

                                  Of course it is. You're attempting to do harm, intentionally, to a
                                  law-abiding corporation that you happen to disagree with for purely
                                  emotional reasons.

                                  >
                                  > What I base my beliefs on. What I read, what I see. Again, we
                                  differ
                                  > here Ward.

                                  Mostly in the area of rational analysis of ideas, I suspect.

                                  >
                                  > I am a very rational person Ward, it takes alot to make me mad. I
                                  do
                                  > believe I explained myself there.

                                  Have you examined both sides of this very complex issue?

                                  You still haven't told us where you get your information re: the use
                                  of animals in research and medicine.


                                  >
                                  >
                                  > *Colleen*
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., wclark1046 <no_reply@y...>
                                  wrote:
                                  > > --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum
                                  <wildfawn1@y...>
                                  > > wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Well, my beliefs say HLS is cruel!! *Colleen*>>
                                  > >
                                  > > What do you base those beliefs on?
                                  > >
                                  > > >> No, my brain tells me and my heart feels it, my
                                  emotions
                                  > > take over and sometimes my anger sets in.>>
                                  > >
                                  > > Don't you think that rationality is a better source for ethical
                                  > > decision-making than uncontrolled emotion?
                                  > >
                                  > > >> I calm down though, I would never do anything in a violent
                                  > > manner.>>
                                  > >
                                  > > You've taken part in cyber-thuggery. It's not violent, but it
                                  is
                                  > > childish and irresponsible.
                                  > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: Sure you do - so do I.
                                  > > Everyone does. You obivously hold the
                                  > > > opinion that the research done by organizations like HLS is
                                  > either
                                  > > > useless or cruel. In the vast majority of cases, it's neither.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum
                                  > <wildfawn1@y...>
                                  > > > wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > I don't have an attitude Ward. *Colleen*
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: --- In
                                  > > > animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
                                  > > > > wrote:
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > My campaigning against HLS is my business too!!
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Yes, and your "virtual sit-in" is cyber-thuggery. I'm
                                  willing
                                  > > to
                                  > > > > bet you don't really know anything about what HLS actually
                                  does.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Mister know it all. And if I choose to share my info with
                                  you,
                                  > > so
                                  > > > be
                                  > > > > it. *Colleen*
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Why won't you? Are you worried that I might prove you're
                                  being
                                  > > > lied
                                  > > > > to? If I could, would you change your attitude?
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: --- In
                                  > > > > animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
                                  > > > > > wrote:
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > I don't listen to anything PCRM has to say. I get my
                                  > > info
                                  > > > > from
                                  > > > > > other sources Ward. *Colleen*
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > What are your sources, then? Tell us where you get your
                                  > > > > > information. Your campaigning against HLS isn't
                                  encouraging.
                                  > > > > >
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: Your sources aren't
                                  > > > > reputable,
                                  > > > > > Colleen. Dishonesty comes as
                                  > > > > > > naturally to them as breathing. They aren't anything
                                  like
                                  > > > > > > reputable. Go to Quackwatch.com and read their analysis
                                  of
                                  > > > > PCRM.
                                  > > > > > > You can go to the AMA's Web site, download their
                                  excellent
                                  > > > (and
                                  > > > > > > free) Policyfinder, and read what they say about PCRM as
                                  > > well.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > Do you think PCRM and PeTA are more reliable than the
                                  AMA?
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > If so, why? What would you say if I showed you that
                                  they
                                  > > are
                                  > > > > > lying
                                  > > > > > > to you?
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > If you want information about science, you have to go to
                                  > the
                                  > > > > > people
                                  > > > > > > who are actually ***doing*** science.
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > Do you know what "peer-review" is?
                                  > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum
                                  > > > > <wildfawn1@y...>
                                  > > > > > > wrote:
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > As a matter of fact Ward, I will stick with the
                                  info
                                  > I
                                  > > > get
                                  > > > > > > from my sources. *Colleen*
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: --- In
                                  > > > > > > animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum
                                  <wildfawn1@y...>
                                  > > > > > > > wrote:
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > Do you have any facts to back this up Ward?
                                  > *Colleen*
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > Didn't you read the posts? I provided references.
                                  Real
                                  > > > > > > references,
                                  > > > > > > > to actual work done by actual scientists, and
                                  published
                                  > in
                                  > > > > peer-
                                  > > > > > > > reviewed journals that you should be able to find in
                                  any
                                  > > > > decent
                                  > > > > > > > University library. You have all the information you
                                  > need
                                  > > > to
                                  > > > > > look
                                  > > > > > > > into it for yourself.
                                  > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: Weebs, I've been
                                  > > > > browsing
                                  > > > > > > your
                                  > > > > > > > Web site - as I predicted, it's full
                                  > > > > > > > > of what have become traditional untruths told by AR
                                  > > > > > advocates.
                                  > > > > > > > > Here's one:
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > "Question/attack: "If we stopped testing on animals
                                  the
                                  > > > > > products
                                  > > > > > > > > would be unsafe for humans."
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > Response: a) Even with animal testing the products
                                  are
                                  > > not
                                  > > > > > > always
                                  > > > > > > > > safe for humans. In fact, there are drugs and
                                  > treatments
                                  > > > > > tested
                                  > > > > > > on
                                  > > > > > > > > animals that have proven unsafe for humans(i.e.
                                  > > > > Thalidomide). "
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > That's false, Weebs. Thalidomide was never tested
                                  for
                                  > > > > > > > > teratogenicity prior to its release in Europe. You
                                  > > don't
                                  > > > > know
                                  > > > > > > why
                                  > > > > > > > > it wasn't ever released in the US, do you? You have
                                  an
                                  > > > FDA
                                  > > > > > > > officer,
                                  > > > > > > > > Frances Kelsey, to thank for that. Kelsey had
                                  > suspected
                                  > > > > that
                                  > > > > > > > > thalidomide might have a teratogenic effect, as she
                                  had
                                  > > > > > formally
                                  > > > > > > > > studied teratogenicity - a fledgling science at that
                                  > > > time.
                                  > > > > > She
                                  > > > > > > > was
                                  > > > > > > > > right, and later tests proved it. Now, following
                                  that
                                  > > > > tragedy
                                  > > > > > > in
                                  > > > > > > > > Europe, a host of tests proved that thalidomide
                                  > produced
                                  > > > > > > precisely
                                  > > > > > > > > the same effects in a variety of mammals as it did
                                  in
                                  > > > > humans.
                                  > > > > > > > Those
                                  > > > > > > > > tests can be referenced still at any decent
                                  University
                                  > > > > library:
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > 1.DiPaolo JA (1963). Congenital malformation in
                                  strain
                                  > A
                                  > > > > mice:
                                  > > > > > > its
                                  > > > > > > > > experimental production by thalidomide. JAMA
                                  vol.183:
                                  > > 139-
                                  > > > > 141
                                  > > > > > > > > 2 King CTG & Kendrick FJ (1962). Teratogenic effects
                                  of
                                  > > > > > > > thalidomide
                                  > > > > > > > > in the Sprague Dawley rat. The Lancet: ii: 1116
                                  > > > > > > > > 3. Homburger F, Chaube S, Eppenberger M, Bogdonoff
                                  PD
                                  > > and
                                  > > > > > Nixon
                                  > > > > > > CW
                                  > > > > > > > > (1965). Susceptibility of certain inbred strains of
                                  > > > hamsters
                                  > > > > > to
                                  > > > > > > > > teratogenic effects of thalidomide. Toxicol Appl
                                  > > Pharmaco
                                  > > > > > vol.:
                                  > > > > > > > 686-
                                  > > > > > > > > 69
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > 4. Hamilton WJ & Poswillo DE (1972). Limb reduction
                                  > > > > anomalies
                                  > > > > > > > > induced in the marmoset by thalidomide. J Anat
                                  > > vol.11:505-
                                  > > > 50
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > 5. Hendrick AG, Axelrod LR & Clayborn LD (1966).
                                  > > > Thalidomide
                                  > > > > > > > > syndrome in baboons Natur vol. 210: 958-95
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > By the way, Weebs, can you tell us what other
                                  effects -
                                  > > > > beside
                                  > > > > > > > limb
                                  > > > > > > > > malformations - thalidomide has on fetuses? You
                                  can't,
                                  > > > can
                                  > > > > > you?
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > Here's the inescapable conclusion:
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > The teratogenic and embryotoxic effects of
                                  thalidomide
                                  > > are
                                  > > > > > > caused
                                  > > > > > > > by
                                  > > > > > > > > a mutagenic DNA binding mechanism during the
                                  > > organogenetic
                                  > > > > > stage
                                  > > > > > > > of
                                  > > > > > > > > embryo development.
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > The mechanisms of embryo development in these stages
                                  > are
                                  > > > > > > identical
                                  > > > > > > > > across the mammalian species.
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > Any teratogenic or embryotoxic test that produces
                                  > > results
                                  > > > in
                                  > > > > > > rats
                                  > > > > > > > is
                                  > > > > > > > > highly indicative of similar results in humans.
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > The above referenced tests prove that to be the case.
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > Now, for the record, Weebs:
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > Please explain for us how the lack of application of
                                  > > these
                                  > > > > > > highly
                                  > > > > > > > > predictive tests prior to the release of thalidomide
                                  in
                                  > > > the
                                  > > > > > > > European
                                  > > > > > > > > market translates into a failure of animal research,
                                  > > > rather
                                  > > > > > than
                                  > > > > > > a
                                  > > > > > > > > failure to apply sufficient animal research.
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > > Or, to put it another way, please explain to us how
                                  it
                                  > > is
                                  > > > > > > possible
                                  > > > > > > > > that these test would not have revealed teratogenic
                                  and
                                  > > > > > > > embryotoxic
                                  > > > > > > > > effects before the release of thalidomide, but
                                  somehow,
                                  > > > > > > > > miraculously, done so afterwards?
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > >
                                  > > > > > > > >
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                                  > > > > > > > >
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                                • wclark1046
                                  ... both sides Ward, even wrote a letter to HLS and I am still waiting for a response and this was a few weeks ago. I get my info from welfare resources, lab
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Jul 6, 2002
                                    --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
                                    wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Not just for emotional reasons Ward. And I have looked at
                                    both sides Ward, even wrote a letter to HLS and I am still waiting
                                    for a response and this was a few weeks ago. I get my info from
                                    welfare resources, lab resources and other resources as well.
                                    *Colleen*

                                    What sources?


                                    >
                                    >
                                    > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: --- In
                                    animalrightsdebateclub@y..., "purrrrrshia" <wildfawn1@y...>
                                    > wrote:
                                    > > I don't consider the sit-in childish or irresponsible. It is
                                    what
                                    > I
                                    > > believe in, my way of helping.>>
                                    >
                                    > Of course it is. You're attempting to do harm, intentionally, to
                                    a
                                    > law-abiding corporation that you happen to disagree with for
                                    purely
                                    > emotional reasons.
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    > > What I base my beliefs on. What I read, what I see. Again, we
                                    > differ
                                    > > here Ward.
                                    >
                                    > Mostly in the area of rational analysis of ideas, I suspect.
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    > > I am a very rational person Ward, it takes alot to make me mad.
                                    I
                                    > do
                                    > > believe I explained myself there.
                                    >
                                    > Have you examined both sides of this very complex issue?
                                    >
                                    > You still haven't told us where you get your information re: the
                                    use
                                    > of animals in research and medicine.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > *Colleen*
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., wclark1046 <no_reply@y...>
                                    > wrote:
                                    > > > --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum
                                    > <wildfawn1@y...>
                                    > > > wrote:
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Well, my beliefs say HLS is cruel!! *Colleen*>>
                                    > > >
                                    > > > What do you base those beliefs on?
                                    > > >
                                    > > > >> No, my brain tells me and my heart feels it, my
                                    > emotions
                                    > > > take over and sometimes my anger sets in.>>
                                    > > >
                                    > > > Don't you think that rationality is a better source for
                                    ethical
                                    > > > decision-making than uncontrolled emotion?
                                    > > >
                                    > > > >> I calm down though, I would never do anything in a violent
                                    > > > manner.>>
                                    > > >
                                    > > > You've taken part in cyber-thuggery. It's not violent, but it
                                    > is
                                    > > > childish and irresponsible.
                                    > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: Sure you do - so do I.
                                    > > > Everyone does. You obivously hold the
                                    > > > > opinion that the research done by organizations like HLS is
                                    > > either
                                    > > > > useless or cruel. In the vast majority of cases, it's
                                    neither.
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum
                                    > > <wildfawn1@y...>
                                    > > > > wrote:
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > I don't have an attitude Ward. *Colleen*
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: --- In
                                    > > > > animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
                                    > > > > > wrote:
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > My campaigning against HLS is my business too!!
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Yes, and your "virtual sit-in" is cyber-thuggery. I'm
                                    > willing
                                    > > > to
                                    > > > > > bet you don't really know anything about what HLS actually
                                    > does.
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Mister know it all. And if I choose to share my info with
                                    > you,
                                    > > > so
                                    > > > > be
                                    > > > > > it. *Colleen*
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > Why won't you? Are you worried that I might prove you're
                                    > being
                                    > > > > lied
                                    > > > > > to? If I could, would you change your attitude?
                                    > > > > >
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: --- In
                                    > > > > > animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum
                                    <wildfawn1@y...>
                                    > > > > > > wrote:
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > I don't listen to anything PCRM has to say. I get
                                    my
                                    > > > info
                                    > > > > > from
                                    > > > > > > other sources Ward. *Colleen*
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > What are your sources, then? Tell us where you get your
                                    > > > > > > information. Your campaigning against HLS isn't
                                    > encouraging.
                                    > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: Your sources
                                    aren't
                                    > > > > > reputable,
                                    > > > > > > Colleen. Dishonesty comes as
                                    > > > > > > > naturally to them as breathing. They aren't anything
                                    > like
                                    > > > > > > > reputable. Go to Quackwatch.com and read their
                                    analysis
                                    > of
                                    > > > > > PCRM.
                                    > > > > > > > You can go to the AMA's Web site, download their
                                    > excellent
                                    > > > > (and
                                    > > > > > > > free) Policyfinder, and read what they say about PCRM
                                    as
                                    > > > well.
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > Do you think PCRM and PeTA are more reliable than the
                                    > AMA?
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > If so, why? What would you say if I showed you that
                                    > they
                                    > > > are
                                    > > > > > > lying
                                    > > > > > > > to you?
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > If you want information about science, you have to go
                                    to
                                    > > the
                                    > > > > > > people
                                    > > > > > > > who are actually ***doing*** science.
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > Do you know what "peer-review" is?
                                    > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum
                                    > > > > > <wildfawn1@y...>
                                    > > > > > > > wrote:
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > As a matter of fact Ward, I will stick with the
                                    > info
                                    > > I
                                    > > > > get
                                    > > > > > > > from my sources. *Colleen*
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: --- In
                                    > > > > > > > animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum
                                    > <wildfawn1@y...>
                                    > > > > > > > > wrote:
                                    > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > Do you have any facts to back this up Ward?
                                    > > *Colleen*
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > Didn't you read the posts? I provided references.
                                    > Real
                                    > > > > > > > references,
                                    > > > > > > > > to actual work done by actual scientists, and
                                    > published
                                    > > in
                                    > > > > > peer-
                                    > > > > > > > > reviewed journals that you should be able to find in
                                    > any
                                    > > > > > decent
                                    > > > > > > > > University library. You have all the information
                                    you
                                    > > need
                                    > > > > to
                                    > > > > > > look
                                    > > > > > > > > into it for yourself.
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: Weebs, I've
                                    been
                                    > > > > > browsing
                                    > > > > > > > your
                                    > > > > > > > > Web site - as I predicted, it's full
                                    > > > > > > > > > of what have become traditional untruths told by
                                    AR
                                    > > > > > > advocates.
                                    > > > > > > > > > Here's one:
                                    > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > "Question/attack: "If we stopped testing on
                                    animals
                                    > the
                                    > > > > > > products
                                    > > > > > > > > > would be unsafe for humans."
                                    > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > Response: a) Even with animal testing the products
                                    > are
                                    > > > not
                                    > > > > > > > always
                                    > > > > > > > > > safe for humans. In fact, there are drugs and
                                    > > treatments
                                    > > > > > > tested
                                    > > > > > > > on
                                    > > > > > > > > > animals that have proven unsafe for humans(i.e.
                                    > > > > > Thalidomide). "
                                    > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > That's false, Weebs. Thalidomide was never tested
                                    > for
                                    > > > > > > > > > teratogenicity prior to its release in Europe.
                                    You
                                    > > > don't
                                    > > > > > know
                                    > > > > > > > why
                                    > > > > > > > > > it wasn't ever released in the US, do you? You
                                    have
                                    > an
                                    > > > > FDA
                                    > > > > > > > > officer,
                                    > > > > > > > > > Frances Kelsey, to thank for that. Kelsey had
                                    > > suspected
                                    > > > > > that
                                    > > > > > > > > > thalidomide might have a teratogenic effect, as
                                    she
                                    > had
                                    > > > > > > formally
                                    > > > > > > > > > studied teratogenicity - a fledgling science at
                                    that
                                    > > > > time.
                                    > > > > > > She
                                    > > > > > > > > was
                                    > > > > > > > > > right, and later tests proved it. Now, following
                                    > that
                                    > > > > > tragedy
                                    > > > > > > > in
                                    > > > > > > > > > Europe, a host of tests proved that thalidomide
                                    > > produced
                                    > > > > > > > precisely
                                    > > > > > > > > > the same effects in a variety of mammals as it did
                                    > in
                                    > > > > > humans.
                                    > > > > > > > > Those
                                    > > > > > > > > > tests can be referenced still at any decent
                                    > University
                                    > > > > > library:
                                    > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > 1.DiPaolo JA (1963). Congenital malformation in
                                    > strain
                                    > > A
                                    > > > > > mice:
                                    > > > > > > > its
                                    > > > > > > > > > experimental production by thalidomide. JAMA
                                    > vol.183:
                                    > > > 139-
                                    > > > > > 141
                                    > > > > > > > > > 2 King CTG & Kendrick FJ (1962). Teratogenic
                                    effects
                                    > of
                                    > > > > > > > > thalidomide
                                    > > > > > > > > > in the Sprague Dawley rat. The Lancet: ii: 1116
                                    > > > > > > > > > 3. Homburger F, Chaube S, Eppenberger M, Bogdonoff
                                    > PD
                                    > > > and
                                    > > > > > > Nixon
                                    > > > > > > > CW
                                    > > > > > > > > > (1965). Susceptibility of certain inbred strains
                                    of
                                    > > > > hamsters
                                    > > > > > > to
                                    > > > > > > > > > teratogenic effects of thalidomide. Toxicol Appl
                                    > > > Pharmaco
                                    > > > > > > vol.:
                                    > > > > > > > > 686-
                                    > > > > > > > > > 69
                                    > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > 4. Hamilton WJ & Poswillo DE (1972). Limb
                                    reduction
                                    > > > > > anomalies
                                    > > > > > > > > > induced in the marmoset by thalidomide. J Anat
                                    > > > vol.11:505-
                                    > > > > 50
                                    > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > 5. Hendrick AG, Axelrod LR & Clayborn LD (1966).
                                    > > > > Thalidomide
                                    > > > > > > > > > syndrome in baboons Natur vol. 210: 958-95
                                    > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > By the way, Weebs, can you tell us what other
                                    > effects -
                                    > > > > > beside
                                    > > > > > > > > limb
                                    > > > > > > > > > malformations - thalidomide has on fetuses? You
                                    > can't,
                                    > > > > can
                                    > > > > > > you?
                                    > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > Here's the inescapable conclusion:
                                    > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > The teratogenic and embryotoxic effects of
                                    > thalidomide
                                    > > > are
                                    > > > > > > > caused
                                    > > > > > > > > by
                                    > > > > > > > > > a mutagenic DNA binding mechanism during the
                                    > > > organogenetic
                                    > > > > > > stage
                                    > > > > > > > > of
                                    > > > > > > > > > embryo development.
                                    > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > The mechanisms of embryo development in these
                                    stages
                                    > > are
                                    > > > > > > > identical
                                    > > > > > > > > > across the mammalian species.
                                    > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > Any teratogenic or embryotoxic test that produces
                                    > > > results
                                    > > > > in
                                    > > > > > > > rats
                                    > > > > > > > > is
                                    > > > > > > > > > highly indicative of similar results in humans.
                                    > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > The above referenced tests prove that to be the
                                    case.
                                    > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > Now, for the record, Weebs:
                                    > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > Please explain for us how the lack of application
                                    of
                                    > > > these
                                    > > > > > > > highly
                                    > > > > > > > > > predictive tests prior to the release of
                                    thalidomide
                                    > in
                                    > > > > the
                                    > > > > > > > > European
                                    > > > > > > > > > market translates into a failure of animal
                                    research,
                                    > > > > rather
                                    > > > > > > than
                                    > > > > > > > a
                                    > > > > > > > > > failure to apply sufficient animal research.
                                    > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > Or, to put it another way, please explain to us
                                    how
                                    > it
                                    > > > is
                                    > > > > > > > possible
                                    > > > > > > > > > that these test would not have revealed
                                    teratogenic
                                    > and
                                    > > > > > > > > embryotoxic
                                    > > > > > > > > > effects before the release of thalidomide, but
                                    > somehow,
                                    > > > > > > > > > miraculously, done so afterwards?
                                    > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                    > > > > > > > > > animalrightsdebateclub-unsubscribe@y...
                                    > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                                    > > Terms
                                    > > > > of
                                    > > > > > > > > Service.
                                    > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring
                                    love
                                    > to
                                    > > > our
                                    > > > > > > > hearts,
                                    > > > > > > > > and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                                    > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------
                                    > > > > > > > > > Do You Yahoo!?
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                                    > access
                                    > > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                    removed]
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                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > >
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                                    > > > of
                                    > > > > > > > Service.
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love
                                    to
                                    > > our
                                    > > > > > > hearts,
                                    > > > > > > > and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > >
                                    > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------
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                                  • Colleen Klaum
                                    http://www.wwail.org/ http://www.mydog8it.com/doghouse/cruelty.htm http://www.aavs.org/ You want more Ward? *Colleen* wclark1046
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Jul 6, 2002
                                      http://www.wwail.org/
                                      http://www.mydog8it.com/doghouse/cruelty.htm
                                      http://www.aavs.org/

                                      You want more Ward? *Colleen*


                                      wclark1046 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Not just for emotional reasons Ward. And I have looked at
                                      both sides Ward, even wrote a letter to HLS and I am still waiting
                                      for a response and this was a few weeks ago. I get my info from
                                      welfare resources, lab resources and other resources as well.
                                      *Colleen*

                                      What sources?


                                      >
                                      >
                                      > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: --- In
                                      animalrightsdebateclub@y..., "purrrrrshia" <wildfawn1@y...>
                                      > wrote:
                                      > > I don't consider the sit-in childish or irresponsible. It is
                                      what
                                      > I
                                      > > believe in, my way of helping.>>
                                      >
                                      > Of course it is. You're attempting to do harm, intentionally, to
                                      a
                                      > law-abiding corporation that you happen to disagree with for
                                      purely
                                      > emotional reasons.
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      > > What I base my beliefs on. What I read, what I see. Again, we
                                      > differ
                                      > > here Ward.
                                      >
                                      > Mostly in the area of rational analysis of ideas, I suspect.
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      > > I am a very rational person Ward, it takes alot to make me mad.
                                      I
                                      > do
                                      > > believe I explained myself there.
                                      >
                                      > Have you examined both sides of this very complex issue?
                                      >
                                      > You still haven't told us where you get your information re: the
                                      use
                                      > of animals in research and medicine.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > *Colleen*
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., wclark1046 <no_reply@y...>
                                      > wrote:
                                      > > > --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum
                                      > <wildfawn1@y...>
                                      > > > wrote:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Well, my beliefs say HLS is cruel!! *Colleen*>>
                                      > > >
                                      > > > What do you base those beliefs on?
                                      > > >
                                      > > > >> No, my brain tells me and my heart feels it, my
                                      > emotions
                                      > > > take over and sometimes my anger sets in.>>
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Don't you think that rationality is a better source for
                                      ethical
                                      > > > decision-making than uncontrolled emotion?
                                      > > >
                                      > > > >> I calm down though, I would never do anything in a violent
                                      > > > manner.>>
                                      > > >
                                      > > > You've taken part in cyber-thuggery. It's not violent, but it
                                      > is
                                      > > > childish and irresponsible.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: Sure you do - so do I.
                                      > > > Everyone does. You obivously hold the
                                      > > > > opinion that the research done by organizations like HLS is
                                      > > either
                                      > > > > useless or cruel. In the vast majority of cases, it's
                                      neither.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum
                                      > > <wildfawn1@y...>
                                      > > > > wrote:
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > I don't have an attitude Ward. *Colleen*
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: --- In
                                      > > > > animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
                                      > > > > > wrote:
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > My campaigning against HLS is my business too!!
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Yes, and your "virtual sit-in" is cyber-thuggery. I'm
                                      > willing
                                      > > > to
                                      > > > > > bet you don't really know anything about what HLS actually
                                      > does.
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Mister know it all. And if I choose to share my info with
                                      > you,
                                      > > > so
                                      > > > > be
                                      > > > > > it. *Colleen*
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > Why won't you? Are you worried that I might prove you're
                                      > being
                                      > > > > lied
                                      > > > > > to? If I could, would you change your attitude?
                                      > > > > >
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: --- In
                                      > > > > > animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum
                                      <wildfawn1@y...>
                                      > > > > > > wrote:
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > I don't listen to anything PCRM has to say. I get
                                      my
                                      > > > info
                                      > > > > > from
                                      > > > > > > other sources Ward. *Colleen*
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > What are your sources, then? Tell us where you get your
                                      > > > > > > information. Your campaigning against HLS isn't
                                      > encouraging.
                                      > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: Your sources
                                      aren't
                                      > > > > > reputable,
                                      > > > > > > Colleen. Dishonesty comes as
                                      > > > > > > > naturally to them as breathing. They aren't anything
                                      > like
                                      > > > > > > > reputable. Go to Quackwatch.com and read their
                                      analysis
                                      > of
                                      > > > > > PCRM.
                                      > > > > > > > You can go to the AMA's Web site, download their
                                      > excellent
                                      > > > > (and
                                      > > > > > > > free) Policyfinder, and read what they say about PCRM
                                      as
                                      > > > well.
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > Do you think PCRM and PeTA are more reliable than the
                                      > AMA?
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > If so, why? What would you say if I showed you that
                                      > they
                                      > > > are
                                      > > > > > > lying
                                      > > > > > > > to you?
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > If you want information about science, you have to go
                                      to
                                      > > the
                                      > > > > > > people
                                      > > > > > > > who are actually ***doing*** science.
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > Do you know what "peer-review" is?
                                      > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum
                                      > > > > > <wildfawn1@y...>
                                      > > > > > > > wrote:
                                      > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > As a matter of fact Ward, I will stick with the
                                      > info
                                      > > I
                                      > > > > get
                                      > > > > > > > from my sources. *Colleen*
                                      > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: --- In
                                      > > > > > > > animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum
                                      > <wildfawn1@y...>
                                      > > > > > > > > wrote:
                                      > > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > > Do you have any facts to back this up Ward?
                                      > > *Colleen*
                                      > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > Didn't you read the posts? I provided references.
                                      > Real
                                      > > > > > > > references,
                                      > > > > > > > > to actual work done by actual scientists, and
                                      > published
                                      > > in
                                      > > > > > peer-
                                      > > > > > > > > reviewed journals that you should be able to find in
                                      > any
                                      > > > > > decent
                                      > > > > > > > > University library. You have all the information
                                      you
                                      > > need
                                      > > > > to
                                      > > > > > > look
                                      > > > > > > > > into it for yourself.
                                      > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: Weebs, I've
                                      been
                                      > > > > > browsing
                                      > > > > > > > your
                                      > > > > > > > > Web site - as I predicted, it's full
                                      > > > > > > > > > of what have become traditional untruths told by
                                      AR
                                      > > > > > > advocates.
                                      > > > > > > > > > Here's one:
                                      > > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > > "Question/attack: "If we stopped testing on
                                      animals
                                      > the
                                      > > > > > > products
                                      > > > > > > > > > would be unsafe for humans."
                                      > > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > > Response: a) Even with animal testing the products
                                      > are
                                      > > > not
                                      > > > > > > > always
                                      > > > > > > > > > safe for humans. In fact, there are drugs and
                                      > > treatments
                                      > > > > > > tested
                                      > > > > > > > on
                                      > > > > > > > > > animals that have proven unsafe for humans(i.e.
                                      > > > > > Thalidomide). "
                                      > > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > > That's false, Weebs. Thalidomide was never tested
                                      > for
                                      > > > > > > > > > teratogenicity prior to its release in Europe.
                                      You
                                      > > > don't
                                      > > > > > know
                                      > > > > > > > why
                                      > > > > > > > > > it wasn't ever released in the US, do you? You
                                      have
                                      > an
                                      > > > > FDA
                                      > > > > > > > > officer,
                                      > > > > > > > > > Frances Kelsey, to thank for that. Kelsey had
                                      > > suspected
                                      > > > > > that
                                      > > > > > > > > > thalidomide might have a teratogenic effect, as
                                      she
                                      > had
                                      > > > > > > formally
                                      > > > > > > > > > studied teratogenicity - a fledgling science at
                                      that
                                      > > > > time.
                                      > > > > > > She
                                      > > > > > > > > was
                                      > > > > > > > > > right, and later tests proved it. Now, following
                                      > that
                                      > > > > > tragedy
                                      > > > > > > > in
                                      > > > > > > > > > Europe, a host of tests proved that thalidomide
                                      > > produced
                                      > > > > > > > precisely
                                      > > > > > > > > > the same effects in a variety of mammals as it did
                                      > in
                                      > > > > > humans.
                                      > > > > > > > > Those
                                      > > > > > > > > > tests can be referenced still at any decent
                                      > University
                                      > > > > > library:
                                      > > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > > 1.DiPaolo JA (1963). Congenital malformation in
                                      > strain
                                      > > A
                                      > > > > > mice:
                                      > > > > > > > its
                                      > > > > > > > > > experimental production by thalidomide. JAMA
                                      > vol.183:
                                      > > > 139-
                                      > > > > > 141
                                      > > > > > > > > > 2 King CTG & Kendrick FJ (1962). Teratogenic
                                      effects
                                      > of
                                      > > > > > > > > thalidomide
                                      > > > > > > > > > in the Sprague Dawley rat. The Lancet: ii: 1116
                                      > > > > > > > > > 3. Homburger F, Chaube S, Eppenberger M, Bogdonoff
                                      > PD
                                      > > > and
                                      > > > > > > Nixon
                                      > > > > > > > CW
                                      > > > > > > > > > (1965). Susceptibility of certain inbred strains
                                      of
                                      > > > > hamsters
                                      > > > > > > to
                                      > > > > > > > > > teratogenic effects of thalidomide. Toxicol Appl
                                      > > > Pharmaco
                                      > > > > > > vol.:
                                      > > > > > > > > 686-
                                      > > > > > > > > > 69
                                      > > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > > 4. Hamilton WJ & Poswillo DE (1972). Limb
                                      reduction
                                      > > > > > anomalies
                                      > > > > > > > > > induced in the marmoset by thalidomide. J Anat
                                      > > > vol.11:505-
                                      > > > > 50
                                      > > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > > 5. Hendrick AG, Axelrod LR & Clayborn LD (1966).
                                      > > > > Thalidomide
                                      > > > > > > > > > syndrome in baboons Natur vol. 210: 958-95
                                      > > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > > By the way, Weebs, can you tell us what other
                                      > effects -
                                      > > > > > beside
                                      > > > > > > > > limb
                                      > > > > > > > > > malformations - thalidomide has on fetuses? You
                                      > can't,
                                      > > > > can
                                      > > > > > > you?
                                      > > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > > Here's the inescapable conclusion:
                                      > > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > > The teratogenic and embryotoxic effects of
                                      > thalidomide
                                      > > > are
                                      > > > > > > > caused
                                      > > > > > > > > by
                                      > > > > > > > > > a mutagenic DNA binding mechanism during the
                                      > > > organogenetic
                                      > > > > > > stage
                                      > > > > > > > > of
                                      > > > > > > > > > embryo development.
                                      > > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > > The mechanisms of embryo development in these
                                      stages
                                      > > are
                                      > > > > > > > identical
                                      > > > > > > > > > across the mammalian species.
                                      > > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > > Any teratogenic or embryotoxic test that produces
                                      > > > results
                                      > > > > in
                                      > > > > > > > rats
                                      > > > > > > > > is
                                      > > > > > > > > > highly indicative of similar results in humans.
                                      > > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > > The above referenced tests prove that to be the
                                      case.
                                      > > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > > Now, for the record, Weebs:
                                      > > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > > Please explain for us how the lack of application
                                      of
                                      > > > these
                                      > > > > > > > highly
                                      > > > > > > > > > predictive tests prior to the release of
                                      thalidomide
                                      > in
                                      > > > > the
                                      > > > > > > > > European
                                      > > > > > > > > > market translates into a failure of animal
                                      research,
                                      > > > > rather
                                      > > > > > > than
                                      > > > > > > > a
                                      > > > > > > > > > failure to apply sufficient animal research.
                                      > > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > > Or, to put it another way, please explain to us
                                      how
                                      > it
                                      > > > is
                                      > > > > > > > possible
                                      > > > > > > > > > that these test would not have revealed
                                      teratogenic
                                      > and
                                      > > > > > > > > embryotoxic
                                      > > > > > > > > > effects before the release of thalidomide, but
                                      > somehow,
                                      > > > > > > > > > miraculously, done so afterwards?
                                      > > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > >
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                                      love
                                      > to
                                      > > > our
                                      > > > > > > > hearts,
                                      > > > > > > > > and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                                      > > > > > > > > >
                                      > > > > > > > > >
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                                      to
                                      > > our
                                      > > > > > > hearts,
                                      > > > > > > > and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
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                                      > > > >
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                                    • wclark1046
                                      ... Those aren t reputable sources, Colleen. A reputable source in a science discipline is a peer-reviewed journal. Nobody from any of those organizations is
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Jul 6, 2002
                                        --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
                                        wrote:
                                        >
                                        > http://www.wwail.org/
                                        > http://www.mydog8it.com/doghouse/cruelty.htm
                                        > http://www.aavs.org/
                                        >
                                        > You want more Ward? *Colleen*

                                        Those aren't reputable sources, Colleen. A reputable source in a
                                        science discipline is a peer-reviewed journal. Nobody from any of
                                        those organizations is either working in any research field, or is
                                        even attempting to publish in any actual scientific journal.

                                        The first two sites really don't contain anything of substance.
                                        I've got quite a list of fun stuff on the aavs, but for now I'll go
                                        with stuff they've got on their site today. Here's an example from
                                        the aavs site, under their "Xenotranplantation" section:

                                        "So far, no person who has received an organ from another animal has
                                        left the hospital alive."

                                        That's a lie, Colleen. There are thousands of people walking around
                                        with heart valves taken from pigs. Look into it. Lots of people
                                        recover from severe burns because of a "living bandage" made from
                                        pig skin.

                                        Here's another:

                                        "Vivisection is opposed on scientific grounds because it is nearly
                                        impossible to take data from experiments on one species and apply
                                        those results to members of other species."

                                        That's a lie, Colleen. I've given you a list of studies that show,
                                        for example, that the teratogenic effects of thalidomide are
                                        virtually identical in a wide range of mammals. But it gets worse -
                                        animals are widely used to study methods of regenerating neural
                                        tissue, which could have tremendous meaning for tens of thousands of
                                        people who are paralyzed or partially paralyzed by traumatic spinal
                                        injuries. The growth, structure and function of neural tissue is
                                        almost completely identical across the entire spectrum of
                                        vertebrates, and even invertebrates - the huge nerve axons of squids
                                        are often used as anatomical models because, except for size,
                                        they're almost identical to mammal neurons. I could go on all day.

                                        It gets worse:

                                        "Over 95% of the increase of human life expectancy is due to
                                        sanitation and lifestyle improvements as well as medical discoveries
                                        made through ***non-animal techniques such as human clinical
                                        research in vitro (test tube) technologies.*** "

                                        The highlighted portion is a lie, Colleen. In vitro testing is
                                        not "non-animal." The cells used are grown in a culture of fetal
                                        calf serum, collected when pregnant beef cattle are killed for beef.

                                        What's more, they're lying to you when they imply that any research
                                        stops with in vitro testing. Almost none does. You can't discover
                                        teratogenic (remember thalidomide?) and systemic effects - like
                                        liver toxicity - unless you have a complete living system. Like an
                                        animal.

                                        Can you think of a way to test for teratogenicity without using an
                                        animal model? Don't you think testing for teratogenicity is
                                        probably important?

                                        If you have to lie to support a cause, of what worth is that cause?
                                        I found three lies in less than two minutes, Colleen.

                                        Now, none of those sites mention the use of animals in medicine -
                                        not research, but ongoing medical treatment.

                                        Do you think we should continue HIV testing of donated blood?

                                        Do you think we should do pyrogen testing of implantable and blood-
                                        contact medical devices?

                                        Do you think we should allow pregnancy testing?

                                        Why don't your sites talk about any of those things, Colleen? Don't
                                        they have the conviction to stand up and campaign against HIV
                                        testing of blood? What price their principles now?

                                        Now, for your quiz question for the day:

                                        Name a specific, significant medical breakthrough that was made with
                                        no use of animals as models or as a source of materials. Just one.
                                        Have fun.


                                        > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: --- In
                                        animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
                                        > wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > Not just for emotional reasons Ward. And I have looked at
                                        > both sides Ward, even wrote a letter to HLS and I am still waiting
                                        > for a response and this was a few weeks ago. I get my info from
                                        > welfare resources, lab resources and other resources as well.
                                        > *Colleen*
                                        >
                                        > What sources?
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: --- In
                                        > animalrightsdebateclub@y..., "purrrrrshia" <wildfawn1@y...>
                                        > > wrote:
                                        > > > I don't consider the sit-in childish or irresponsible. It is
                                        > what
                                        > > I
                                        > > > believe in, my way of helping.>>
                                        > >
                                        > > Of course it is. You're attempting to do harm, intentionally,
                                        to
                                        > a
                                        > > law-abiding corporation that you happen to disagree with for
                                        > purely
                                        > > emotional reasons.
                                        > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > What I base my beliefs on. What I read, what I see. Again, we
                                        > > differ
                                        > > > here Ward.
                                        > >
                                        > > Mostly in the area of rational analysis of ideas, I suspect.
                                        > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I am a very rational person Ward, it takes alot to make me
                                        mad.
                                        > I
                                        > > do
                                        > > > believe I explained myself there.
                                        > >
                                        > > Have you examined both sides of this very complex issue?
                                        > >
                                        > > You still haven't told us where you get your information re: the
                                        > use
                                        > > of animals in research and medicine.
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > *Colleen*
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., wclark1046 <no_reply@y...>
                                        > > wrote:
                                        > > > > --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum
                                        > > <wildfawn1@y...>
                                        > > > > wrote:
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > Well, my beliefs say HLS is cruel!! *Colleen*>>
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > What do you base those beliefs on?
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > >> No, my brain tells me and my heart feels it, my
                                        > > emotions
                                        > > > > take over and sometimes my anger sets in.>>
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Don't you think that rationality is a better source for
                                        > ethical
                                        > > > > decision-making than uncontrolled emotion?
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > >> I calm down though, I would never do anything in a
                                        violent
                                        > > > > manner.>>
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > You've taken part in cyber-thuggery. It's not violent, but
                                        it
                                        > > is
                                        > > > > childish and irresponsible.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: Sure you do - so do
                                        I.
                                        > > > > Everyone does. You obivously hold the
                                        > > > > > opinion that the research done by organizations like HLS
                                        is
                                        > > > either
                                        > > > > > useless or cruel. In the vast majority of cases, it's
                                        > neither.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum
                                        > > > <wildfawn1@y...>
                                        > > > > > wrote:
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > I don't have an attitude Ward. *Colleen*
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: --- In
                                        > > > > > animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum
                                        <wildfawn1@y...>
                                        > > > > > > wrote:
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > My campaigning against HLS is my business too!!
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > Yes, and your "virtual sit-in" is cyber-thuggery. I'm
                                        > > willing
                                        > > > > to
                                        > > > > > > bet you don't really know anything about what HLS
                                        actually
                                        > > does.
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > Mister know it all. And if I choose to share my info
                                        with
                                        > > you,
                                        > > > > so
                                        > > > > > be
                                        > > > > > > it. *Colleen*
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > Why won't you? Are you worried that I might prove
                                        you're
                                        > > being
                                        > > > > > lied
                                        > > > > > > to? If I could, would you change your attitude?
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: --- In
                                        > > > > > > animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum
                                        > <wildfawn1@y...>
                                        > > > > > > > wrote:
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > I don't listen to anything PCRM has to say. I
                                        get
                                        > my
                                        > > > > info
                                        > > > > > > from
                                        > > > > > > > other sources Ward. *Colleen*
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > What are your sources, then? Tell us where you get
                                        your
                                        > > > > > > > information. Your campaigning against HLS isn't
                                        > > encouraging.
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: Your sources
                                        > aren't
                                        > > > > > > reputable,
                                        > > > > > > > Colleen. Dishonesty comes as
                                        > > > > > > > > naturally to them as breathing. They aren't
                                        anything
                                        > > like
                                        > > > > > > > > reputable. Go to Quackwatch.com and read their
                                        > analysis
                                        > > of
                                        > > > > > > PCRM.
                                        > > > > > > > > You can go to the AMA's Web site, download their
                                        > > excellent
                                        > > > > > (and
                                        > > > > > > > > free) Policyfinder, and read what they say about
                                        PCRM
                                        > as
                                        > > > > well.
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > Do you think PCRM and PeTA are more reliable than
                                        the
                                        > > AMA?
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > If so, why? What would you say if I showed you that
                                        > > they
                                        > > > > are
                                        > > > > > > > lying
                                        > > > > > > > > to you?
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > If you want information about science, you have to
                                        go
                                        > to
                                        > > > the
                                        > > > > > > > people
                                        > > > > > > > > who are actually ***doing*** science.
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > Do you know what "peer-review" is?
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum
                                        > > > > > > <wildfawn1@y...>
                                        > > > > > > > > wrote:
                                        > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > As a matter of fact Ward, I will stick with
                                        the
                                        > > info
                                        > > > I
                                        > > > > > get
                                        > > > > > > > > from my sources. *Colleen*
                                        > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: --- In
                                        > > > > > > > > animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum
                                        > > <wildfawn1@y...>
                                        > > > > > > > > > wrote:
                                        > > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > > Do you have any facts to back this up Ward?
                                        > > > *Colleen*
                                        > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > Didn't you read the posts? I provided
                                        references.
                                        > > Real
                                        > > > > > > > > references,
                                        > > > > > > > > > to actual work done by actual scientists, and
                                        > > published
                                        > > > in
                                        > > > > > > peer-
                                        > > > > > > > > > reviewed journals that you should be able to find
                                        in
                                        > > any
                                        > > > > > > decent
                                        > > > > > > > > > University library. You have all the information
                                        > you
                                        > > > need
                                        > > > > > to
                                        > > > > > > > look
                                        > > > > > > > > > into it for yourself.
                                        > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: Weebs, I've
                                        > been
                                        > > > > > > browsing
                                        > > > > > > > > your
                                        > > > > > > > > > Web site - as I predicted, it's full
                                        > > > > > > > > > > of what have become traditional untruths told by
                                        > AR
                                        > > > > > > > advocates.
                                        > > > > > > > > > > Here's one:
                                        > > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > > "Question/attack: "If we stopped testing on
                                        > animals
                                        > > the
                                        > > > > > > > products
                                        > > > > > > > > > > would be unsafe for humans."
                                        > > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > > Response: a) Even with animal testing the
                                        products
                                        > > are
                                        > > > > not
                                        > > > > > > > > always
                                        > > > > > > > > > > safe for humans. In fact, there are drugs and
                                        > > > treatments
                                        > > > > > > > tested
                                        > > > > > > > > on
                                        > > > > > > > > > > animals that have proven unsafe for humans(i.e.
                                        > > > > > > Thalidomide). "
                                        > > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > > That's false, Weebs. Thalidomide was never
                                        tested
                                        > > for
                                        > > > > > > > > > > teratogenicity prior to its release in Europe.
                                        > You
                                        > > > > don't
                                        > > > > > > know
                                        > > > > > > > > why
                                        > > > > > > > > > > it wasn't ever released in the US, do you? You
                                        > have
                                        > > an
                                        > > > > > FDA
                                        > > > > > > > > > officer,
                                        > > > > > > > > > > Frances Kelsey, to thank for that. Kelsey had
                                        > > > suspected
                                        > > > > > > that
                                        > > > > > > > > > > thalidomide might have a teratogenic effect, as
                                        > she
                                        > > had
                                        > > > > > > > formally
                                        > > > > > > > > > > studied teratogenicity - a fledgling science at
                                        > that
                                        > > > > > time.
                                        > > > > > > > She
                                        > > > > > > > > > was
                                        > > > > > > > > > > right, and later tests proved it. Now,
                                        following
                                        > > that
                                        > > > > > > tragedy
                                        > > > > > > > > in
                                        > > > > > > > > > > Europe, a host of tests proved that thalidomide
                                        > > > produced
                                        > > > > > > > > precisely
                                        > > > > > > > > > > the same effects in a variety of mammals as it
                                        did
                                        > > in
                                        > > > > > > humans.
                                        > > > > > > > > > Those
                                        > > > > > > > > > > tests can be referenced still at any decent
                                        > > University
                                        > > > > > > library:
                                        > > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > > 1.DiPaolo JA (1963). Congenital malformation in
                                        > > strain
                                        > > > A
                                        > > > > > > mice:
                                        > > > > > > > > its
                                        > > > > > > > > > > experimental production by thalidomide. JAMA
                                        > > vol.183:
                                        > > > > 139-
                                        > > > > > > 141
                                        > > > > > > > > > > 2 King CTG & Kendrick FJ (1962). Teratogenic
                                        > effects
                                        > > of
                                        > > > > > > > > > thalidomide
                                        > > > > > > > > > > in the Sprague Dawley rat. The Lancet: ii: 1116
                                        > > > > > > > > > > 3. Homburger F, Chaube S, Eppenberger M,
                                        Bogdonoff
                                        > > PD
                                        > > > > and
                                        > > > > > > > Nixon
                                        > > > > > > > > CW
                                        > > > > > > > > > > (1965). Susceptibility of certain inbred strains
                                        > of
                                        > > > > > hamsters
                                        > > > > > > > to
                                        > > > > > > > > > > teratogenic effects of thalidomide. Toxicol Appl
                                        > > > > Pharmaco
                                        > > > > > > > vol.:
                                        > > > > > > > > > 686-
                                        > > > > > > > > > > 69
                                        > > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > > 4. Hamilton WJ & Poswillo DE (1972). Limb
                                        > reduction
                                        > > > > > > anomalies
                                        > > > > > > > > > > induced in the marmoset by thalidomide. J Anat
                                        > > > > vol.11:505-
                                        > > > > > 50
                                        > > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > > 5. Hendrick AG, Axelrod LR & Clayborn LD (1966).
                                        > > > > > Thalidomide
                                        > > > > > > > > > > syndrome in baboons Natur vol. 210: 958-95
                                        > > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > > By the way, Weebs, can you tell us what other
                                        > > effects -
                                        > > > > > > beside
                                        > > > > > > > > > limb
                                        > > > > > > > > > > malformations - thalidomide has on fetuses? You
                                        > > can't,
                                        > > > > > can
                                        > > > > > > > you?
                                        > > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > > Here's the inescapable conclusion:
                                        > > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > > The teratogenic and embryotoxic effects of
                                        > > thalidomide
                                        > > > > are
                                        > > > > > > > > caused
                                        > > > > > > > > > by
                                        > > > > > > > > > > a mutagenic DNA binding mechanism during the
                                        > > > > organogenetic
                                        > > > > > > > stage
                                        > > > > > > > > > of
                                        > > > > > > > > > > embryo development.
                                        > > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > > The mechanisms of embryo development in these
                                        > stages
                                        > > > are
                                        > > > > > > > > identical
                                        > > > > > > > > > > across the mammalian species.
                                        > > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > > Any teratogenic or embryotoxic test that
                                        produces
                                        > > > > results
                                        > > > > > in
                                        > > > > > > > > rats
                                        > > > > > > > > > is
                                        > > > > > > > > > > highly indicative of similar results in humans.
                                        > > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > > The above referenced tests prove that to be the
                                        > case.
                                        > > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > > Now, for the record, Weebs:
                                        > > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > > Please explain for us how the lack of
                                        application
                                        > of
                                        > > > > these
                                        > > > > > > > > highly
                                        > > > > > > > > > > predictive tests prior to the release of
                                        > thalidomide
                                        > > in
                                        > > > > > the
                                        > > > > > > > > > European
                                        > > > > > > > > > > market translates into a failure of animal
                                        > research,
                                        > > > > > rather
                                        > > > > > > > than
                                        > > > > > > > > a
                                        > > > > > > > > > > failure to apply sufficient animal research.
                                        > > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > > Or, to put it another way, please explain to us
                                        > how
                                        > > it
                                        > > > > is
                                        > > > > > > > > possible
                                        > > > > > > > > > > that these test would not have revealed
                                        > teratogenic
                                        > > and
                                        > > > > > > > > > embryotoxic
                                        > > > > > > > > > > effects before the release of thalidomide, but
                                        > > somehow,
                                        > > > > > > > > > > miraculously, done so afterwards?
                                        > > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                        > > > > > > > > > > animalrightsdebateclub-unsubscribe@y...
                                        > > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the
                                        Yahoo!
                                        > > > Terms
                                        > > > > > of
                                        > > > > > > > > > Service.
                                        > > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring
                                        > love
                                        > > to
                                        > > > > our
                                        > > > > > > > > hearts,
                                        > > > > > > > > > and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                                        > > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------
                                        > > > > > > > > > > Do You Yahoo!?
                                        > > > > > > > > > > New! SBC Yahoo! Dial - 1st Month Free &
                                        unlimited
                                        > > access
                                        > > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                        > removed]
                                        > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                        > > > > > > > > > animalrightsdebateclub-unsubscribe@y...
                                        > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!
                                        > > Terms
                                        > > > > of
                                        > > > > > > > > Service.
                                        > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring
                                        love
                                        > to
                                        > > > our
                                        > > > > > > > hearts,
                                        > > > > > > > > and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                                        > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > > > ---------------------------------
                                        > > > > > > > > > Do You Yahoo!?
                                        > > > > > > > > > New! SBC Yahoo! Dial - 1st Month Free & unlimited
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                                        > > > > > > > > >
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                                        > > > > > > > > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love
                                        to
                                        > > our
                                        > > > > > > hearts,
                                        > > > > > > > and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                                        > > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > >
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                                        > > of
                                        > > > > > > Service.
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                                        > > > > > > > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to
                                        > our
                                        > > > > > hearts,
                                        > > > > > > and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > > ---------------------------------
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                                        > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
                                        > of
                                        > > > > > Service.
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to
                                        our
                                        > > > > hearts,
                                        > > > > > and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > >
                                        > > > > > > ---------------------------------
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                                        > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms
                                        of
                                        > > > > Service.
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our
                                        > > > hearts,
                                        > > > > and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > >
                                        > > > > > ---------------------------------
                                        > > > > > Do You Yahoo!?
                                        > > > > > New! SBC Yahoo! Dial - 1st Month Free & unlimited access
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                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our
                                        hearts,
                                        > and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > ---------------------------------
                                        > > Do You Yahoo!?
                                        > > New! SBC Yahoo! Dial - 1st Month Free & unlimited access
                                        > >
                                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                                        >
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                                        Service.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our hearts,
                                        and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                                        >
                                        >
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                                        >
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