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[Animal Rights Debate Club] Re: Activist says some animals deserve legal rights

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  • razorhead145
    Lets talk about chimpanzees for a bit now. Like us, they create their own tools to make their lives easier. For instance, grass stems used to fish for
    Message 1 of 25 , Jun 14, 2002
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      Lets talk about chimpanzees for a bit now. Like us, they create their
      own
      tools to make their lives easier. For instance, grass stems used
      to "fish" for
      insects. They're also very affectionate just like people.
      My proof razordude, I read alot. Colleen


      Chimpanzees also practice rape, kidnapping, infanticide, and
      cannibalism.
    • Colleen Klaum
      I did say some Ravens, not all. Colleen razorhead145 wrote: we all know dogs can lead blind people and respond to a shepherds
      Message 2 of 25 , Jun 14, 2002
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        I did say some Ravens, not all. Colleen

        razorhead145 <JLDickmon@...> wrote: we all know dogs can lead blind people and respond to a
        shepherds command in a split second.
        What allows dogs to accomplish all these complex behaviors? Through
        trial-and-error learning.(high capacity) ~Colleen

        Trial and error? How about positive / negative reinforcement.

        Now let's apply that to your dear raven. If I walk outside and there
        is a raven in the yard, the reaction will be very little. Now, if I
        reach down and pick up a rock, the raven flys away. Why? Because last
        week, when I picked up the rock, and the raven didn't fly, he got
        beaned with the rock.

        Negative reinforcement.

        You are confusing "intelligence" with "learned behavior."

        I read books, too.


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      • Colleen Klaum
        Just like humans, right? razorhead145 wrote: Lets talk about chimpanzees for a bit now. Like us, they create their own tools to
        Message 3 of 25 , Jun 14, 2002
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          Just like humans, right?

          razorhead145 <JLDickmon@...> wrote: Lets talk about chimpanzees for a bit now. Like us, they create their
          own
          tools to make their lives easier. For instance, grass stems used
          to "fish" for
          insects. They're also very affectionate just like people.
          My proof razordude, I read alot. Colleen


          Chimpanzees also practice rape, kidnapping, infanticide, and
          cannibalism.





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          "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our hearts, and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum


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        • razorhead145
          ... No, not just like humans. Humans made the practices illegal. Morals, values, and legal rights are distictly human traits. The lower animals lack them. Oh
          Message 4 of 25 , Jun 14, 2002
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            --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Just like humans, right?
            >

            >
            >
            > Chimpanzees also practice rape, kidnapping, infanticide, and
            > cannibalism.
            >
            >


            No, not just like humans. Humans made the practices illegal. Morals,
            values, and legal rights are distictly human traits. The lower
            animals lack them.

            Oh hey, by the way... did you formulate an answer to Ward's question
            yet?

            See you Monday. I've been challenged to a "napping contest" by my
            father. We're going to see who can spend the longest time asleep in a
            lawn chair.

            John
          • Colleen Klaum
            That s an interesting contest, let me know who the winner is. Have to look up Wards question again, forgot what it was. Colleen razorhead145
            Message 5 of 25 , Jun 14, 2002
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              That's an interesting contest, let me know who the winner is. Have to look up Wards question again, forgot what it was. Colleen

              razorhead145 <JLDickmon@...> wrote: --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
              wrote:
              >
              > Just like humans, right?
              >

              >
              >
              > Chimpanzees also practice rape, kidnapping, infanticide, and
              > cannibalism.
              >
              >


              No, not just like humans. Humans made the practices illegal. Morals,
              values, and legal rights are distictly human traits. The lower
              animals lack them.

              Oh hey, by the way... did you formulate an answer to Ward's question
              yet?

              See you Monday. I've been challenged to a "napping contest" by my
              father. We're going to see who can spend the longest time asleep in a
              lawn chair.

              John


              To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              animalrightsdebateclub-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com



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              "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our hearts, and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum


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            • purrrrrshia
              I believe I already answered Wards questions. If Ward needs more specific areas of animals and such, he may ask me himself. Colleen ... Have to look up Wards
              Message 6 of 25 , Jun 15, 2002
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                I believe I already answered Wards questions. If Ward needs more
                specific areas of animals and such, he may ask me himself. Colleen



                --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
                wrote:
                >
                > That's an interesting contest, let me know who the winner is.
                Have to look up Wards question again, forgot what it was. Colleen
                >
                > razorhead145 <JLDickmon@w...> wrote: --- In
                animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > Just like humans, right?
                > >
                >
                > >
                > >
                > > Chimpanzees also practice rape, kidnapping, infanticide, and
                > > cannibalism.
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                > No, not just like humans. Humans made the practices illegal.
                Morals,
                > values, and legal rights are distictly human traits. The lower
                > animals lack them.
                >
                > Oh hey, by the way... did you formulate an answer to Ward's
                question
                > yet?
                >
                > See you Monday. I've been challenged to a "napping contest" by my
                > father. We're going to see who can spend the longest time asleep in
                a
                > lawn chair.
                >
                > John
                >
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > animalrightsdebateclub-unsubscribe@y...
                >
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                Service.
                >
                >
                > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our hearts,
                and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                >
                >
                > ---------------------------------
                > Do You Yahoo!?
                > Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • wclark1046
                ... Let me try that again; here s what I asked you. What is the foundation for rights? Who has them, and why? ... published a book. Colleen ...
                Message 7 of 25 , Jun 16, 2002
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                  --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
                  wrote:
                  >

                  Let me try that again; here's what I asked you. What is the
                  foundation for "rights?" Who has them, and why?


                  > I'm not sure what you're getting at here? He is a lawyer that
                  published a book. Colleen
                  >
                  > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: --- In
                  animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > >> There's a lot more to it than that, but I have a funny
                  feeling
                  > you
                  > > won't enjoy the discussion very much.<<
                  > > I am open-minded, please, go on. Colleen
                  >
                  > Then answer the questions.
                  >
                  >
                  > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: There's a lot more to it
                  than
                  > that, but I have a funny feeling you
                  > > won't enjoy the discussion very much.
                  > >
                  > > What, Colleen, is the foundation for "rights?" What are they
                  and
                  > who
                  > > has them, and why?
                  > >
                  > > Answer carefully!
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum
                  <wildfawn1@y...>
                  > > wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > That's all you observed from the post? How witty you
                  are.
                  > > Colleen
                  > > >
                  > > > razorhead145 <JLDickmon@w...> wrote: --- In
                  > > animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
                  > > > wrote:
                  > > > >
                  > > > > Steven Wise leans to the lectern. "I don't see a difference
                  > > between
                  > > > a chimpanzee," he says, "and my 4 1/2- year-old son."
                  > > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > 4 1/2 year olds generally can speak some form of English, and
                  by
                  > > and
                  > > > large don't fling poo.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > > > animalrightsdebateclub-unsubscribe@y...
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                  > > Service.
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our
                  > hearts,
                  > > and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > ---------------------------------
                  > > > Do You Yahoo!?
                  > > > Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup
                  > > >
                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > > animalrightsdebateclub-unsubscribe@y...
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                  > Service.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our
                  hearts,
                  > and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ---------------------------------
                  > > Do You Yahoo!?
                  > > Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup
                  > >
                  > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > animalrightsdebateclub-unsubscribe@y...
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                  Service.
                  >
                  >
                  > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our hearts,
                  and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                  >
                  >
                  > ---------------------------------
                  > Do You Yahoo!?
                  > Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • wclark1046
                  ... wrote: That s not really accurate; intelligence isn t that easy to quantify. Very little in biology is. An African Gray parrot is a highly intelligent
                  Message 8 of 25 , Jun 16, 2002
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                    --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., "purrrrrshia" <wildfawn1@y...>
                    wrote:

                    That's not really accurate; "intelligence" isn't that easy to
                    quantify. Very little in biology is. An African Gray parrot is a
                    highly intelligent bird, but it's intelligence is of a completely
                    different nature than a human's.

                    But, that still doesn't answer the question. Humans don't have
                    rights because of their intelligence. Think harder about the
                    question. I'm adding a word, a key word that will tell you what I'm
                    getting at. What is the ***societal*** foundation for rights?


                    > Basically, some animals are just as smart as a 4 year old.
                    Colleen
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., "razorhead145"
                    <JLDickmon@w...>
                    > wrote:
                    > > --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum
                    <wildfawn1@y...>
                    > > wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > I'm not sure what you're getting at here? He is a lawyer
                    that
                    > > published a book. Colleen
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > And Ward is a wildlife biologist that has published a book. And
                    > > several short stories. And hosts two websites.
                    > >
                    > > Answer the question.
                    > >
                    > > What is the foundation for "rights?"
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: --- In
                    > > animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
                    > > > wrote:
                    > > > >
                    > > > > >> There's a lot more to it than that, but I have a funny
                    > feeling
                    > > > you
                    > > > > won't enjoy the discussion very much.<<
                    > > > > I am open-minded, please, go on. Colleen
                    > > >
                    > > > Then answer the questions.
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > > wclark1046 <no_reply@y...> wrote: There's a lot more to it
                    > than
                    > > > that, but I have a funny feeling you
                    > > > > won't enjoy the discussion very much.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > What, Colleen, is the foundation for "rights?" What are
                    they
                    > and
                    > > > who
                    > > > > has them, and why?
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Answer carefully!
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum
                    > > <wildfawn1@y...>
                    > > > > wrote:
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > That's all you observed from the post? How witty you
                    > are.
                    > > > > Colleen
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > razorhead145 <JLDickmon@w...> wrote: --- In
                    > > > > animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
                    > > > > > wrote:
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > > > Steven Wise leans to the lectern. "I don't see a
                    difference
                    > > > > between
                    > > > > > a chimpanzee," he says, "and my 4 1/2- year-old son."
                    > > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > 4 1/2 year olds generally can speak some form of English,
                    and
                    > > by
                    > > > > and
                    > > > > > large don't fling poo.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                  • wclark1046
                    ... None of that answers the question, Colleen. Humans don t have rights because of their intellect, or lack of. Can t you work it out for yourself? Think
                    Message 9 of 25 , Jun 16, 2002
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                      --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
                      wrote:
                      >

                      None of that answers the question, Colleen. Humans don't have
                      rights because of their intellect, or lack of. Can't you work it
                      out for yourself? Think "society."

                      > Didn't realize you were the original one who asked the
                      question.
                      > Moving right along. I will keep this brief.
                      > Lets start with the Raven, yes, the bird. Some have the
                      ability to solve difficult puzzles, such as untangling a knotted
                      string to free up a tasty treat or figuring out how to steal fish by
                      hauling in an angler's unattended line.
                      > And come on, we all know dogs can lead blind people and
                      respond to a shepherds command in a split second.
                      > What allows dogs to accomplish all these complex behaviors?
                      Through trial-and-error learning.(high capacity)
                      > Lets talk about chimpanzees for a bit now. Like us, they
                      create their own tools to make their lives easier. For instance,
                      grass stems used to "fish" for insects. They're also very
                      affectionate just like people.
                      > My proof razordude, I read alot. Colleen
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > razorhead145 <JLDickmon@w...> wrote: --- In
                      animalrightsdebateclub@y..., "purrrrrshia" <wildfawn1@y...>
                      > wrote:
                      > > Basically, some animals are just as smart as a 4 year old.
                      Colleen
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      > What animal is as smart as a 4 year old? And what is your proof?
                      >
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > animalrightsdebateclub-unsubscribe@y...
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                      Service.
                      >
                      >
                      > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our hearts,
                      and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                      >
                      >
                      > ---------------------------------
                      > Do You Yahoo!?
                      > Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • wclark1046
                      ... You haven t. I m looking for a socio-legal answer. ... is. ... my ... in ... hearts,
                      Message 10 of 25 , Jun 16, 2002
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                        --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., "purrrrrshia" <wildfawn1@y...>
                        wrote:
                        > I believe I already answered Wards questions. If Ward needs more
                        > specific areas of animals and such, he may ask me himself. Colleen

                        You haven't. I'm looking for a socio-legal answer.

                        >
                        > --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
                        > wrote:
                        > >
                        > > That's an interesting contest, let me know who the winner
                        is.
                        > Have to look up Wards question again, forgot what it was. Colleen
                        > >
                        > > razorhead145 <JLDickmon@w...> wrote: --- In
                        > animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
                        > > wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Just like humans, right?
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > > > Chimpanzees also practice rape, kidnapping, infanticide, and
                        > > > cannibalism.
                        > > >
                        > > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > No, not just like humans. Humans made the practices illegal.
                        > Morals,
                        > > values, and legal rights are distictly human traits. The lower
                        > > animals lack them.
                        > >
                        > > Oh hey, by the way... did you formulate an answer to Ward's
                        > question
                        > > yet?
                        > >
                        > > See you Monday. I've been challenged to a "napping contest" by
                        my
                        > > father. We're going to see who can spend the longest time asleep
                        in
                        > a
                        > > lawn chair.
                        > >
                        > > John
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > > animalrightsdebateclub-unsubscribe@y...
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                        > Service.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our
                        hearts,
                        > and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ---------------------------------
                        > > Do You Yahoo!?
                        > > Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup
                        > >
                        > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Colleen Klaum
                        You will have your answer in a few days Ward. wclark1046 wrote: --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., purrrrrshia
                        Message 11 of 25 , Jun 16, 2002
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                          You will have your answer in a few days Ward.

                          wclark1046 <no_reply@yahoogroups.com> wrote: --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., "purrrrrshia" <wildfawn1@y...>
                          wrote:
                          > I believe I already answered Wards questions. If Ward needs more
                          > specific areas of animals and such, he may ask me himself. Colleen

                          You haven't. I'm looking for a socio-legal answer.

                          >
                          > --- In animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > That's an interesting contest, let me know who the winner
                          is.
                          > Have to look up Wards question again, forgot what it was. Colleen
                          > >
                          > > razorhead145 <JLDickmon@w...> wrote: --- In
                          > animalrightsdebateclub@y..., Colleen Klaum <wildfawn1@y...>
                          > > wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Just like humans, right?
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Chimpanzees also practice rape, kidnapping, infanticide, and
                          > > > cannibalism.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > No, not just like humans. Humans made the practices illegal.
                          > Morals,
                          > > values, and legal rights are distictly human traits. The lower
                          > > animals lack them.
                          > >
                          > > Oh hey, by the way... did you formulate an answer to Ward's
                          > question
                          > > yet?
                          > >
                          > > See you Monday. I've been challenged to a "napping contest" by
                          my
                          > > father. We're going to see who can spend the longest time asleep
                          in
                          > a
                          > > lawn chair.
                          > >
                          > > John
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > > animalrightsdebateclub-unsubscribe@y...
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of
                          > Service.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our
                          hearts,
                          > and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > ---------------------------------
                          > > Do You Yahoo!?
                          > > Sign-up for Video Highlights of 2002 FIFA World Cup
                          > >
                          > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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                          "Live in peace with the animals. Animals bring love to our hearts, and warmth to our souls" Colleen Klaum


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