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On the Nature of The Enochian ''Angels''

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  • fighterforadonai
    I have read many of dees diary s and I have come to question the nature of the spirits Dee and Kelley contacted.What were there motives for delivering this
    Message 1 of 12 , Jun 30, 2007
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      I have read many of dees diary's and I have come to question the
      nature of the spirits Dee and Kelley contacted.What were there motives
      for delivering this sort of magic to mankind? To me they ressemble
      demons more than angels. How do we know what the Enochian calls really
      mean?
      Please forgive my ignorence,
      Simon
    • Aaron
      Greetings, I ll answer your last question first, and then move into the rest of ... wrote: How do we know what the Enochian calls really
      Message 2 of 12 , Jul 1, 2007
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        Greetings,

        I'll answer your last question first, and then move into the rest of
        your post:

        --- In angelical_linguistics@yahoogroups.com, "fighterforadonai"
        <fighterforadonai@...> wrote:

        How do we know what the Enochian calls really
        > mean?
        > Please forgive my ignorence,
        > Simon

        We know what the Angelical Calls really mean because they came with
        translations, and those translations hold true throughout the text.
        Go ahead and try to write an intelligible text (about 20 pages long),
        and then encode it as an *entirely different* yet completely readable
        text!

        Heck, I'll even go easy on you! Accomplish the feat with the
        following simple lines:

        Jack and Jill went up the hill
        To fetch a pail of water.
        Jack fell down and broke his crown
        And Jill came tumbling after.

        When you encode this, it has to read something like: "I reign over
        you sayeth the God of Righteousness..." etc. You get the idea.

        > I have read many of dees diary's and I have come to question the
        > nature of the spirits Dee and Kelley contacted.What were there motives
        > for delivering this sort of magic to mankind? To me they ressemble
        > demons more than angels.

        I don't mean to be a wet blanket here- but isn't this most outworn of
        Enochian debates? Kelley complained once or twice that he suspected
        the Angels were demons, and the complaints haven't stopped in over
        four hundred years. :( Meanwhile, we don't see folks asking this
        question about the *same* Angels listed in other systems...

        I don't quite see why you feel that Michael, Gabriel, Raphael, Uriel,
        Anael and other perfectly recognizable Angels are "demonic" in Dee's
        journals, but not in the thousands of other mystical and religious
        texts in which they appear.

        Personally, I don't see anything "demonic" about the entities anywhere
        in Dee's records. They made predictions- some of which came true and
        some which did not. They made promises- some came through and some
        did not. They seemed most interested in transmitting the information
        to Dee through Kelley, and fairly uninterested in the worldly things
        that concerned the men. And, of course, they revealed magickal
        secrets. Where's the demonic activity?

        So, I must ask what exactly you found in Dee's journals that led you
        to this conclusion?

        LVX
        Aaron
      • alexmavity
        ... of ... I think allot of this had to do with the tasks which were set which they must complete, the examples were sleeping with each others wife s which was
        Message 3 of 12 , Jul 1, 2007
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          > I don't mean to be a wet blanket here- but isn't this most outworn
          of
          > Enochian debates? Kelley complained once or twice that he suspected
          > the Angels were demons, and the complaints haven't stopped in over
          > four hundred years. :( Meanwhile, we don't see folks asking this
          > question about the *same* Angels listed in other systems...

          I think allot of this had to do with the tasks which were set which
          they must complete, the examples were sleeping with each others
          wife's which was considered a sin punishable by death. Ordered to go
          and see the Emperor which could of resulted in death for Dee.

          I wonder in the latter instance as to whether Kelly wanted Dee out of
          the picture completely so he could move on to his quest in search of
          the Holy Grail. According to what iv read Dee was very pushy and
          demanding of Kelly's time, he could of had a desire an unconscious
          desire to sleep with Dee's other half which transpired during
          scrying. It could be suggested that his unconscious mind rather than
          Angels/Demons were in motion in certain instances.

          I also cannot really see why these debates have gone on since the
          system was uncovered, it makes no real difference in my opinion,
          Angels are just as dangerous as Demons, it simply a word. They also
          could of come to this conclusion from borrowing extensively form the
          Goetia and Kelly's background in Black magick and Demons, it was
          after all his forte.

          My main interest is whether this system came from Angles or that of
          the unconscious mind, given Dee'e background, he was a genius in
          several fields which could of given him the knowledge to create such
          a system. The only real problem with that would be the language was
          created backwards, how difficult would that be. Plausible,
          impossible, no idea.
        • fighterforadonai
          Dear Araon, thank you for have taken the time to have answered me. Well I am familiar with the enochian calls, but I still think that beings with a superior
          Message 4 of 12 , Jul 1, 2007
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            Dear Araon, thank you for have taken the time to have answered me.

            Well I am familiar with the enochian calls, but I still think that
            beings with a superior intelligence to ours could make the calls
            look like something they are not, for example IAD in the
            translations is G-d but even so it could mean something totally
            different such as Devil, or something like that. (Just a theory)
            Here I will come to the second issue: How do we really know that
            these angels wer Raphael, Michael, Anael etc? You as a Mage must
            know that even Demons have the abillty to appear as angels of light.
            I have also heard a number of rumors telling that one of the angels
            told Dee and Kelley to share wives, and that there was no such thing
            as sin.(True that it was not in Dee's diary that I read this but
            elsewhere) Some may say that this is true but I have grown up in
            what they call an ''Judeo-Christian'' familly, and could not believe
            that there is no such thing as sin.

            By the way, I shall be soon getting your book ''Secrets off Amazon
            if I can. Keep up the good work and thank you again for having taken
            the time to answer me

            Simon




            --- In angelical_linguistics@yahoogroups.com, "Aaron" <kheph777@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Greetings,
            >
            > I'll answer your last question first, and then move into the rest
            of
            > your post:
            >
            > --- In angelical_linguistics@yahoogroups.com, "fighterforadonai"
            > <fighterforadonai@> wrote:
            >
            > How do we know what the Enochian calls really
            > > mean?
            > > Please forgive my ignorence,
            > > Simon
            >
            > We know what the Angelical Calls really mean because they came with
            > translations, and those translations hold true throughout the
            text.
            > Go ahead and try to write an intelligible text (about 20 pages
            long),
            > and then encode it as an *entirely different* yet completely
            readable
            > text!
            >
            > Heck, I'll even go easy on you! Accomplish the feat with the
            > following simple lines:
            >
            > Jack and Jill went up the hill
            > To fetch a pail of water.
            > Jack fell down and broke his crown
            > And Jill came tumbling after.
            >
            > When you encode this, it has to read something like: "I reign over
            > you sayeth the God of Righteousness..." etc. You get the idea.
            >
            > > I have read many of dees diary's and I have come to question the
            > > nature of the spirits Dee and Kelley contacted.What were there
            motives
            > > for delivering this sort of magic to mankind? To me they
            ressemble
            > > demons more than angels.
            >
            > I don't mean to be a wet blanket here- but isn't this most outworn
            of
            > Enochian debates? Kelley complained once or twice that he
            suspected
            > the Angels were demons, and the complaints haven't stopped in over
            > four hundred years. :( Meanwhile, we don't see folks asking this
            > question about the *same* Angels listed in other systems...
            >
            > I don't quite see why you feel that Michael, Gabriel, Raphael,
            Uriel,
            > Anael and other perfectly recognizable Angels are "demonic" in
            Dee's
            > journals, but not in the thousands of other mystical and religious
            > texts in which they appear.
            >
            > Personally, I don't see anything "demonic" about the entities
            anywhere
            > in Dee's records. They made predictions- some of which came true
            and
            > some which did not. They made promises- some came through and some
            > did not. They seemed most interested in transmitting the
            information
            > to Dee through Kelley, and fairly uninterested in the worldly
            things
            > that concerned the men. And, of course, they revealed magickal
            > secrets. Where's the demonic activity?
            >
            > So, I must ask what exactly you found in Dee's journals that led
            you
            > to this conclusion?
            >
            > LVX
            > Aaron
            >
          • Aaron
            Note: instances in the below where I say you or your (etc) are plural. They aren t directed directly at you personally! :) ... Yes, I knew this old bit
            Message 5 of 12 , Jul 1, 2007
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              Note: instances in the below where I say "you" or "your" (etc) are
              plural. They aren't directed directly at you personally! :)

              --- In angelical_linguistics@yahoogroups.com, "alexmavity"
              <magickroundabout@...> wrote:

              > I think allot of this had to do with the tasks which were set which
              > they must complete, the examples were sleeping with each others
              > wife's which was considered a sin punishable by death.

              Yes, I knew this old bit would come up - *again*! ;)

              Look, folks: Maybe you all practice monogamy. Maybe you all think
              you are somehow "morally right" in doing so. However, you've got to
              try to look past the ends of your noses on this one! Polyamory
              ("many-loves") has been around a LOT longer than monogamy. (I've got
              a potential essay in the works on this subject. Look up the "Family
              of Love" - a group that likely practiced polyamory, and with which
              both Dee and Queen Elizabeth had contact.)

              Plus, I think it is downright ridiculous to suggest that an Angel must
              be a demon if it suggests people share intimacy with one another.
              Just because the concept is outside of your moral compass, doesn't
              make an Angel "demonic" for suggesting you try it. Besides, an Angel
              should be *expected* to radically alter your lifestyle.

              > Ordered to go
              > and see the Emperor which could of resulted in death for Dee.

              That's one of the *most* Angelic things the Angels did with Dee!
              Angels were constantly telling Prophets to go and talk to kings and
              emperors on behalf of God. And it often got the Prophet strung up.
              But that doesn't make the Angels into demons.

              > demanding of Kelly's time, he could of had a desire an unconscious
              > desire to sleep with Dee's other half which transpired during
              > scrying.

              I don't buy it. These arguments are based on the idea that Jane Dee
              was some king of hottie - for which there is not one scrap of
              historical evidence.

              Not only that, but there is one bit of evidence that suggests (just
              maybe!) that Kelley was homosexual. When the Angels demanded that
              Kelley get married- something the "Angels are really demons" crowd
              never mentions!- Kelley insisted that he had absolutely "no natural
              inclination" to marry. Yes, it is very scant evidence - but no more
              so than the evidence that Kelley "wanted Dee's wife."

              It could be suggested that his unconscious mind rather than
              > Angels/Demons were in motion in certain instances.

              The unconscious minds of Dee and Kelley were *always* in play at
              absolutely every point of their sessions. That's not even part of the
              debate.

              > I also cannot really see why these debates have gone on since the
              > system was uncovered, it makes no real difference in my opinion,
              > Angels are just as dangerous as Demons, it simply a word.

              That's very close to where I'm coming from. I think that today's view
              of Angels as "fluffy-bunny fairies" is the problem. Folks see the
              Angels in Dee's journals do and suggest things they personally find
              unpleasant, and therefore they *can't* be Angels. In reality, though,
              Angels are not fluffy bunnies. They do things like destroy cities,
              kill firstborn children, bring plagues, etc, etc.

              > My main interest is whether this system came from Angles or that of
              > the unconscious mind, given Dee'e background, he was a genius in
              > several fields which could of given him the knowledge to create such
              > a system.

              See above- this was the case from start to finish. That's why Dee and
              Kelley were chosen for the work. But that has little bearing on the
              "status" of the Angels they worked with.

              > The only real problem with that would be the language was
              > created backwards, how difficult would that be. Plausible,
              > impossible, no idea.

              No, it really wasn't. Loagaeth was given forward, and only four of
              the Keys came backward. The concept that the entire language was
              received backwards is something of a myth.

              In LVX
              Aaron
            • Aaron
              ... Why do you ask this question about them in Dee s records, but not in the Key of Solomon or the Magus? ... See my previous post. That isn t proof the
              Message 6 of 12 , Jul 1, 2007
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                --- In angelical_linguistics@yahoogroups.com, "fighterforadonai"
                <fighterforadonai@...> wrote:

                > Here I will come to the second issue: How do we really know that
                > these angels wer Raphael, Michael, Anael etc?

                Why do you ask this question about them in Dee's records, but not in
                the Key of Solomon or the Magus?

                > I have also heard a number of rumors telling that one of the angels
                > told Dee and Kelley to share wives,

                See my previous post. That isn't proof the Angels were demons.

                > and that there was no such thing
                > as sin.

                A common misconception. Goetic spirits told Kelley these things on
                his own time. The Angels were *angry* at Kelley for talking to those
                spirits, and demanded he renounce their teachings.

                Besides, an Angel suggesting that the human concept of "sin" is
                ridiculous is not uncommon.

                > (True that it was not in Dee's diary that I read this but
                > elsewhere) Some may say that this is true but I have grown up in
                > what they call an ''Judeo-Christian'' familly, and could not believe
                > that there is no such thing as sin.

                In essence, then, you're choosing religion over magick.

                > By the way, I shall be soon getting your book ''Secrets off Amazon
                > if I can. Keep up the good work and thank you again for having taken
                > the time to answer me

                No problem. Sorry to have to play devil's advocate on this one - but
                it is a subject that irritates me just a bit. ;)

                LVX
                Aaron
              • alexmavity
                ... must ... Angel ... I totaly agree, bought about by Kelly, had he not had any background in the occult this would of been clear in his writings along side
                Message 7 of 12 , Jul 1, 2007
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                  > Plus, I think it is downright ridiculous to suggest that an Angel
                  must
                  > be a demon if it suggests people share intimacy with one another.
                  > Just because the concept is outside of your moral compass, doesn't
                  > make an Angel "demonic" for suggesting you try it. Besides, an
                  Angel
                  > should be *expected* to radically alter your lifestyle.

                  I totaly agree, bought about by Kelly, had he not had any background
                  in the occult this would of been clear in his writings along side
                  Dee. As for suggesting these Angels are demons,I don't buy that, as
                  posted before, no difference except for that of altered states.



                  >>> > My main interest is whether this system came from Angles or > >
                  The only real problem with that would be the language was
                  > > created backwards, how difficult would that be. Plausible,
                  > > impossible, no idea.
                  >
                  > No, it really wasn't. Loagaeth was given forward, and only four of
                  > the Keys came backward. The concept that the entire language was
                  > received backwards is something of a myth.
                  >
                  > In LVX
                  > Aaron


                  Interesting to know, what are your personal views on the system at
                  large, would you go along with the idea that this magickal system,
                  brilliant as it is can be a result of one's unconscious mind. I have
                  always favoured the idea that perhaps our ancestors created gods and
                  demons by acceptance. In effect the universal energy has bought about
                  an existence of sorts, in effect making them exactly what they are
                  today. A god, demon, an inspiration, a role envied by every living
                  man.
                • deanhild@att.net
                  ... If you re the sort of person who takes a Sentence first, trial afterwards approach to ideas, you ll probably be happier if you avoid the Enochian
                  Message 8 of 12 , Jul 2, 2007
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                    -------------- Original message from "fighterforadonai" fighterforadonai@...:
                    > Some may say that this is true but I have grown up in
                    > what they call an ''Judeo-Christian'' familly, and could not believe
                    > that there is no such thing as sin.
                    >
                    If you're the sort of person who takes a "Sentence first, trial afterwards" approach to ideas, you'll probably be happier if you avoid the Enochian material and anything else that might force you to deal with the reality of things.
                    -Dean

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Simon Ben David
                    Ok my concept of an angel has changed a bit, and I was a bit disapointed. I really liked to think of an angel as a kindly, good, loving creature and not as a
                    Message 9 of 12 , Jul 2, 2007
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                      Ok my concept of an angel has changed a bit, and I was a bit disapointed. I really liked to think of an angel as a kindly, good, loving creature and not as a harsh justice doer. No being in the universe except for G-d fits into that criteria. Too

                      Aaron <kheph777@...> wrote: --- In angelical_linguistics@yahoogroups.com, "fighterforadonai"
                      <fighterforadonai@...> wrote:

                      > Here I will come to the second issue: How do we really know that
                      > these angels wer Raphael, Michael, Anael etc?

                      Why do you ask this question about them in Dee's records, but not in
                      the Key of Solomon or the Magus?

                      > I have also heard a number of rumors telling that one of the angels
                      > told Dee and Kelley to share wives,

                      See my previous post. That isn't proof the Angels were demons.

                      > and that there was no such thing
                      > as sin.

                      A common misconception. Goetic spirits told Kelley these things on
                      his own time. The Angels were *angry* at Kelley for talking to those
                      spirits, and demanded he renounce their teachings.

                      Besides, an Angel suggesting that the human concept of "sin" is
                      ridiculous is not uncommon.

                      > (True that it was not in Dee's diary that I read this but
                      > elsewhere) Some may say that this is true but I have grown up in
                      > what they call an ''Judeo-Christian'' familly, and could not believe
                      > that there is no such thing as sin.

                      In essence, then, you're choosing religion over magick.

                      > By the way, I shall be soon getting your book ''Secrets off Amazon
                      > if I can. Keep up the good work and thank you again for having taken
                      > the time to answer me

                      No problem. Sorry to have to play devil's advocate on this one - but
                      it is a subject that irritates me just a bit. ;)

                      LVX
                      Aaron






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                    • Simon Ben David
                      Well honestly I search for the truth, and whatever it could be I would except it, but it could take me some time to digest new revolutionary ideas And please
                      Message 10 of 12 , Jul 2, 2007
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                        Well honestly I search for the truth, and whatever it could be I would except it, but it could take me some time to digest new revolutionary ideas
                        And please don't give me advice as to what sort of Magic to practice. If anything this seems to be the most poweful, so I shall practice it, whatever are the truths I learn, and whatever the price to pay for them.



                        -------------- Original message from "fighterforadonai" fighterforadonai@...:
                        > Some may say that this is true but I have grown up in
                        > what they call an ''Judeo-Christian'' familly, and could not believe
                        > that there is no such thing as sin.
                        >
                        If you're the sort of person who takes a "Sentence first, trial afterwards" approach to ideas, you'll probably be happier if you avoid the Enochian material and anything else that might force you to deal with the reality of things.
                        -Dean

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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                      • deanhild@att.net
                        ... This is surely part of the story in terms of pagan deities, saints, angels with generally human qualities, etc., but it doesn t really seem to apply to the
                        Message 11 of 12 , Jul 3, 2007
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                          -------------- Original message from "alexmavity" <magickroundabout@...>: -------------- > Interesting to know, what are your personal views on the system at
                          > large, would you go along with the idea that this magickal system,
                          > brilliant as it is can be a result of one's unconscious mind. I have
                          > always favoured the idea that perhaps our ancestors created gods and
                          > demons by acceptance. In effect the universal energy has bought about
                          > an existence of sorts, in effect making them exactly what they are
                          > today. A god, demon, an inspiration, a role envied by every living
                          > man.
                          >
                          This is surely part of the story in terms of pagan deities, saints, angels with generally human qualities, etc., but it doesn't really seem to apply to the Enochian material which doesn't seem to be about humanity per se, but to consist of beings that have there own roles in the world.
                          -Dean

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • deanhild@att.net
                          ... If you re after truth, you might start with The more you know, the more you know you don t know. and The map is not the territory. ... As you wish.
                          Message 12 of 12 , Jul 3, 2007
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                            -------------- Original message from Simon Ben David fighterforadonai@...:
                            > Well honestly I search for the truth, and whatever it could be I would except
                            > it, but it could take me some time to digest new revolutionary ideas

                            If you're after truth, you might start with "The more you know, the more you know you don't know." and "The map is not the territory."

                            > And please don't give me advice as to what sort of Magic to practice. If
                            > anything this seems to be the most poweful, so I shall practice it, whatever are
                            > the truths I learn, and whatever the price to pay for them.

                            As you wish.
                            -Dean

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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