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Re: maya symposium notes

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  • Susan
    Thank you for the update, Vince. I had just sat down to email you to find out about the conference. Interesting about the 13 (bodily joints) in lieu of the
    Message 1 of 5 , Feb 8, 2009
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      Thank you for the update, Vince. I had just sat down to email you to
      find out about the conference. Interesting about the 13 (bodily joints)
      in lieu of the 20 digets...makes one really think. Pam G. and Chris
      might have some interest on this conference, and I am glad you were able
      to attend.

      Vince, did you get a chance to converse with some of the speakers to see
      if any will go out on a limb and/or have found relationship between the
      Maya and Cahokia ? Also, Poverty Point and Aztalan.

      I hope, Vince, you have gotten to know newer member Dr. Romeo Hristov
      and see if he too has found direct relationships, diffusion between
      MesoAmerican, S. American Maya and Moundbuilders cultures northward.
      I am not yet even suggesting ties to the ancient copper culture and
      intracontinental trade at this point.

      Cahokia in iteself would be a breakthrough since researchers and staff
      at the museum do not make any such connections, last I visited the St.
      Louis site and their official web site.

      I hope the Oopa Loopa discussion Thursday picqued your interest and you
      are pondering writing a paper or proposal for the October online
      Atlantic Conference, if there is enough response and interest in holding
      one at that time.

      Thanks again for the update.

      Susan
      --- In ancient_waterways_so

      ciety@yahoogroups.com, "Vince" <v_barrows@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Here are some notes from this weekend's Maya Symposium.
      >
      > The Role of New Fire Ceremonies at Teotihuacan in Foundation
      > Narratives at Copan and other Classic Maya Kingdoms, by William Fash.
      > 1. Name Glyphs were positioned on front of face or top of head
      > 2. Copan, Motmot tomb: 435 CE contained animal sacrifices, and many
      > colored materials in central chamber.
      > a. Crocodile, representing Diety arching across sky, base of tomb were
      > found jade crocodiles
      > b. Puma: representing combination of watery and sky aspects
      > c. Deer, "starry eyed deer-crocodile": representing fertility
      > 3. Crossed Stick represented bundles of year
      > 4. Scaffold: " accession scenes"
      > 5. Sun Pyramid and Adosada: "Phenomenological antecedent"
      >
      > The Lord of the Deer: Reconstructing a Lost Maya Myth, by Marc Zender
      > 1. Deer Symbols most depicted in codices.
      > 2. Deer must have been appealed to for permission to hunt
      > 3. Blue Pitch commonly adorned the forehead of deer-gods
      > 4. Deer were noted as "carriers"
      > a. Carriers of human female
      > b. Carriers of Ticks (called "Zip")
      > c. Tied corn (maize) to backs.
      > 5. Domestic deer were found in pens.
      > 6. Between antler headdresses were found bee-hives. Hives were moved
      > to different areas in conjunction with flowering cycles, and corn
      > pollination.
      > 7. Cache vessels found by Bob Shear at Copan were turned downward with
      > opening flat against the ground. These pottery vessels contained owls,
      > and eagles within that had attempted to peck their way out (they were
      > placed in toms alive with deer headdress wearing men). These vessels
      > were also found depicted under Chief lord of the deer.
      > 8. Only the men wore the antler headdresses, with deer ears. Women
      > were depicted copulating with the men.
      >
      > The sacred cycle of time in the Paris Codex: Victoria Bricker:
      > Book of Chilam Balam dates to the period between 1559-1579
      > http://www.sacred-texts.com/nam/maya/cbc/cbc27.htm
      > 7 asterisks and the forked stick represent the "heavenly staff" and
      > the "7 planets of medieval astronomy". Astronomical and Meteorological
      > events emphasized.
      >
      > Cosmology and Creation in Ch'orti and Ancient Maya Ritual, by Matthew
      > Looper
      > Cross in circle: represents the underworld.
      > Creation date among the chorti is February 5. Dry weather extends
      > until April 30. Rainy weather extends until Oct 25. Dry weather then
      > extends 100 days
      > Ritual connections found between codices dated to May 30, 741 and
      > modern practices.
      >
      > The Multiple threads of Mayan Time: Barbara Tedlock and Dennis Tedlock
      > 1. Horses – the mounts of rain gods.
      > LOOM represented the Divinatory Calendar.
      > Mayan Calendar:
      > 13x20= 260
      > 18x20+5=365
      >
      > 13 major joints in human body, 20 fingers
      > 13 vertebral and coastal shields in the Turtle carapace, Turtle seen
      > on Madrid codex.
      > 13 days from dark to full moon
      >
      > 18 sections in nature, 18 sections of a centipede body and snake body.
      > "ripples on a pond are like the passage of time"
      > Mayan calendars look like weaving.
      >
    • Vincent Barrows
      Susan; I asked several about the Welch Butterfly Bannerstone calendar with what I interpret as a Mayan Calendar in 20ths and received several varied responses.
      Message 2 of 5 , Feb 8, 2009
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        Susan;
        I asked several about the Welch Butterfly Bannerstone calendar with what I interpret as a Mayan Calendar in 20ths and received several varied responses.

        For those not familiar with the Welch Butterfly, see:
        http://www.freewebs.com/historyofmonksmound/welchbutterfly.htm

        After showing the Welch Butterfly, One visitor stated they had seen similar "glyhs from colonial times from Guatemala" to those on the Welch Butterfly.

        A glyph that I had interpreted as Venus was examined and identified as a mayan symbol by a vendor selling dvd entitled "Breaking the Maya Code". Since it was found in Wilmington Ohiio, She said "This is evidence of a mayan trade route to Ohio. What do you think they were doing there?" She explained that archaeological evidence has recently been found in Arizona of Cocoa in a pottery vessel. Cocoa could only come from Central america.

        Another visitor stated they had not seen the Welch bannerstone before but stated "This must be the Mayan equivalent of the Kensington Rune Stone."

        Others, such as David Anerson, of Tulane dismissed it as "definately not mayan", but stated it does resemble some sort of languge.

        The October Online Conference is a great idea and I do hope to contribute a paper and help out in any way.

        Vince

        --- On Sun, 2/8/09, Susan <beldingenglish@...> wrote:

        From: Susan <beldingenglish@...>
        Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: maya symposium notes
        To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Sunday, February 8, 2009, 10:48 PM


        Thank you for the update, Vince. I had just sat down to email you to
        find out about the conference. Interesting about the 13 (bodily joints)
        in lieu of the 20 digets...makes one really think. Pam G. and Chris
        might have some interest on this conference, and I am glad you were able
        to attend.

        Vince, did you get a chance to converse with some of the speakers to see
        if any will go out on a limb and/or have found relationship between the
        Maya and Cahokia ? Also, Poverty Point and Aztalan.

        I hope, Vince, you have gotten to know newer member Dr. Romeo Hristov
        and see if he too has found direct relationships, diffusion between
        MesoAmerican, S. American Maya and Moundbuilders cultures northward.
        I am not yet even suggesting ties to the ancient copper culture and
        intracontinental trade at this point.

        Cahokia in iteself would be a breakthrough since researchers and staff
        at the museum do not make any such connections, last I visited the St.
        Louis site and their official web site.

        I hope the Oopa Loopa discussion Thursday picqued your interest and you
        are pondering writing a paper or proposal for the October online
        Atlantic Conference, if there is enough response and interest in holding
        one at that time.

        Thanks again for the update.

        Susan
        --- In ancient_waterways_ so

        ciety@yahoogroups. com, "Vince" <v_barrows@. ..> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Here are some notes from this weekend's Maya Symposium.
        >
        > The Role of New Fire Ceremonies at Teotihuacan in Foundation
        > Narratives at Copan and other Classic Maya Kingdoms, by William Fash.
        > 1. Name Glyphs were positioned on front of face or top of head
        > 2. Copan, Motmot tomb: 435 CE contained animal sacrifices, and many
        > colored materials in central chamber.
        > a. Crocodile, representing Diety arching across sky, base of tomb were
        > found jade crocodiles
        > b. Puma: representing combination of watery and sky aspects
        > c. Deer, "starry eyed deer-crocodile" : representing fertility
        > 3. Crossed Stick represented bundles of year
        > 4. Scaffold: " accession scenes"
        > 5. Sun Pyramid and Adosada: "Phenomenological antecedent"
        >
        > The Lord of the Deer: Reconstructing a Lost Maya Myth, by Marc Zender
        > 1. Deer Symbols most depicted in codices.
        > 2. Deer must have been appealed to for permission to hunt
        > 3. Blue Pitch commonly adorned the forehead of deer-gods
        > 4. Deer were noted as "carriers"
        > a. Carriers of human female
        > b. Carriers of Ticks (called "Zip")
        > c. Tied corn (maize) to backs.
        > 5. Domestic deer were found in pens.
        > 6. Between antler headdresses were found bee-hives. Hives were moved
        > to different areas in conjunction with flowering cycles, and corn
        > pollination.
        > 7. Cache vessels found by Bob Shear at Copan were turned downward with
        > opening flat against the ground. These pottery vessels contained owls,
        > and eagles within that had attempted to peck their way out (they were
        > placed in toms alive with deer headdress wearing men). These vessels
        > were also found depicted under Chief lord of the deer.
        > 8. Only the men wore the antler headdresses, with deer ears. Women
        > were depicted copulating with the men.
        >
        > The sacred cycle of time in the Paris Codex: Victoria Bricker:
        > Book of Chilam Balam dates to the period between 1559-1579
        > http://www.sacred- texts.com/ nam/maya/ cbc/cbc27. htm
        > 7 asterisks and the forked stick represent the "heavenly staff" and
        > the "7 planets of medieval astronomy". Astronomical and Meteorological
        > events emphasized.
        >
        > Cosmology and Creation in Ch'orti and Ancient Maya Ritual, by Matthew
        > Looper
        > Cross in circle: represents the underworld.
        > Creation date among the chorti is February 5. Dry weather extends
        > until April 30. Rainy weather extends until Oct 25. Dry weather then
        > extends 100 days
        > Ritual connections found between codices dated to May 30, 741 and
        > modern practices.
        >
        > The Multiple threads of Mayan Time: Barbara Tedlock and Dennis Tedlock
        > 1. Horses – the mounts of rain gods.
        > LOOM represented the Divinatory Calendar.
        > Mayan Calendar:
        > 13x20= 260
        > 18x20+5=365
        >
        > 13 major joints in human body, 20 fingers
        > 13 vertebral and coastal shields in the Turtle carapace, Turtle seen
        > on Madrid codex.
        > 13 days from dark to full moon
        >
        > 18 sections in nature, 18 sections of a centipede body and snake body.
        > "ripples on a pond are like the passage of time"
        > Mayan calendars look like weaving.
        >


      • Chris Patenaude
        Hello, Susan, all... The most interesting detail that popped out from the notes was the use of Crocodile as Diety icon associated with Sky observations. This
        Message 3 of 5 , Feb 9, 2009
        • 0 Attachment
          Hello, Susan, all...
          The most interesting detail that popped out from the notes was the use of Crocodile as Diety icon associated with Sky observations. This is common also to Egypt, Libya and other N.African cultures.
           
          There is a contact of mine down in Texas who has been studying a rockshelter on the Pecos. In it are bands of vertical lines painted in ochre anywhere from 300-1200 CE most likely. The array appears very much like seeing an ancient UPC scanner seal stretching across the backwall of the whole 10 metre mouth-opening width. The most logical inferral is that it should be investigated as a seasonal solar-dial, shadow/light plays corresponding to auspicious calendar dates over a given annual cycle. (like Anubis Caves, OK and Gloria Farley's research)
           
          In the midst of the TX display are bas-relief carvings with crocadilian/alligator indications.
           
          Now the big question is, was there Old World Mithraic contact with Texas? Mayan? or all three linked together by trader-cultural contact? Talk about Ancient Waterways providing the medium of transfer.
           
          The reason i believe it was OW contact flavoring at least the TX appearances was that in the photos the anthropologist working the site sent me, i have positively identified early but quite clear Hebrew square script painted in the same red ochre and apparently dating to the active time of the Site as a worship center. This script evolved in the 1st century BCE - 1st century CE. That places the TX rockshelter as being active surely after that time, but does not indicate when the place first was used by the local Natives, before Levant contact.
          -chris

          --- On Sun, 2/8/09, Susan <beldingenglish@...> wrote:
          From: Susan <beldingenglish@...>
          Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: maya symposium notes
          To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Sunday, February 8, 2009, 9:48 PM

          Thank you for the update, Vince.  I had just sat down to email you to
          find out about the conference.  Interesting about the 13 (bodily joints)
          in lieu of the 20 digets...makes one really think.  Pam G. and Chris
          might have some interest on this conference, and I am glad you were able
          to attend.
          
          Vince, did you get a chance to converse with some of the speakers to see
          if any will go out on a limb and/or have found  relationship between the
          Maya and Cahokia ?  Also, Poverty Point and Aztalan.
          
            I hope, Vince, you have gotten to know newer member Dr. Romeo Hristov
          and see if he too has found  direct relationships, diffusion between
          MesoAmerican,   S. American Maya and Moundbuilders cultures northward.  
          I am not yet even suggesting ties to the ancient copper culture and
          intracontinental trade at this point.
          
            Cahokia in iteself would be a breakthrough since researchers and staff
          at the museum do not make any such connections, last I visited the St.
          Louis site and their official web site.
          
          I hope the Oopa Loopa discussion Thursday picqued your interest and you
          are pondering writing a paper or proposal for the October online
          Atlantic Conference, if there is enough response and interest in holding
          one at that time.
          
          Thanks again for the update.
          
          Susan
          --- In ancient_waterways_so
          
          ciety@yahoogroups.com, "Vince" <v_barrows@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Here are some notes from this weekend's Maya Symposium.
          >
          > The Role of New Fire Ceremonies at Teotihuacan in Foundation
          > Narratives at Copan and other Classic Maya Kingdoms, by William Fash.
          > 1. Name Glyphs were positioned on front of face or top of head
          > 2. Copan, Motmot tomb: 435 CE contained animal sacrifices, and many
          > colored materials in central chamber.
          > a. Crocodile, representing Diety arching across sky, base of tomb were
          > found jade crocodiles
          > b. Puma: representing combination of watery and sky aspects
          > c. Deer, "starry eyed deer-crocodile": representing fertility
          > 3. Crossed Stick represented bundles of year
          > 4. Scaffold: " accession scenes"
          > 5. Sun Pyramid and Adosada: "Phenomenological antecedent"
          >
          > The Lord of the Deer: Reconstructing a Lost Maya Myth, by Marc Zender
          > 1. Deer Symbols most depicted in codices.
          > 2. Deer must have been appealed to for permission to hunt
          > 3. Blue Pitch commonly adorned the forehead of deer-gods
          > 4. Deer were noted as "carriers"
          > a. Carriers of human female
          > b. Carriers of Ticks (called "Zip")
          > c. Tied corn (maize) to backs.
          > 5. Domestic deer were found in pens.
          > 6. Between antler headdresses were found bee-hives. Hives were moved
          > to different areas in conjunction with flowering cycles, and corn
          > pollination.
          > 7. Cache vessels found by Bob Shear at Copan were turned downward with
          > opening flat against the ground. These pottery vessels contained owls,
          > and eagles within that had attempted to peck their way out (they were
          > placed in toms alive with deer headdress wearing men). These vessels
          > were also found depicted under Chief lord of the deer.
          > 8. Only the men wore the antler headdresses, with deer ears. Women
          > were depicted copulating with the men.
          >
          > The sacred cycle of time in the Paris Codex: Victoria Bricker:
          > Book of Chilam Balam dates to the period between 1559-1579
          > http://www.sacred-texts.com/nam/maya/cbc/cbc27.htm
          > 7 asterisks and the forked stick represent the "heavenly staff"
          and
          > the "7 planets of medieval astronomy". Astronomical and
          Meteorological
          > events emphasized.
          >
          > Cosmology and Creation in Ch'orti and Ancient Maya Ritual, by Matthew
          > Looper
          > Cross in circle: represents the underworld.
          > Creation date among the chorti is February 5. Dry weather extends
          > until April 30. Rainy weather extends until Oct 25. Dry weather then
          > extends 100 days
          > Ritual connections found between codices dated to May 30, 741 and
          > modern practices.
          >
          > The Multiple threads of Mayan Time: Barbara Tedlock and Dennis Tedlock
          > 1. Horses – the mounts of rain gods.
          > LOOM represented the Divinatory Calendar.
          > Mayan Calendar:
          > 13x20= 260
          > 18x20+5=365
          >
          > 13 major joints in human body, 20 fingers
          > 13 vertebral and coastal shields in the Turtle carapace, Turtle seen
          > on Madrid codex.
          > 13 days from dark to full moon
          >
          > 18 sections in nature, 18 sections of a centipede body and snake body.
          > "ripples on a pond are like the passage of time"
          > Mayan calendars look like weaving.
          >
          
          
          
          
          
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