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Re: Margaret Leuthner; Reply 1 (

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  • Susan
    Chris, I am down at the library...I believe there is a copy of Margaret Luethner s book somewhere, or I saw it on Marion Dahm s bookshelf, but apparently it is
    Message 1 of 4 , Feb 5 11:54 AM
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      Chris,

      I am down at the library...I believe there is a copy of Margaret Luethner's book somewhere, or I saw it on Marion Dahm's bookshelf, but apparently it is long out of print.  From the first file in your first Post yesterday is the front cover of  Crusade to Vinland-The Kensington Runestone (1988) , An Explorer Book, by Margaret Barry.

      I cannot upload this at home, and for those others with older computers, I am including the other page from the first link.  My question is, from the page or back cover of the green booklet above....were these the same conclusions Margaret had about the Kensington Runestone nearly thirty years later, or did she eventually find evidence leading her to believe it was not a hoax?

      You might have spelled it out clearly in your Posts, but other than  years of accompanying Marion Dahm to conferences, reading his letters,  and listening to him give talks at museums, around campfires (while I cooked!),  picnic tables, and that the Kensington Runestone museum about it not being a hoax, I was unfamiliar personally with those who were saying it was not authentic.  Susan  (see below---the file you sent was nicely formatted, copied from Margaret's book, presumably the back cover):

       The Kensington Runestone has a secret language - English!

      Yes, it has garbled Swedish grammar.

      Yes, it has misspelled words.

      Yes, it has mystical runes and cryptography.

      Secret Codes

      Secret Ciphers

      Secret Word Games

      Scholars are absolutely correct.

      The Kensington Runestone is a hoax.

      625 Years Old

      HISTORY CANNOT BE THE SAME AFTER READING THIS BOOK

      Dare To Believe

      ______________________________________________________


      --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Hello Terry, Stan, Susan, all
      > This is not to `stand up' for "my" side or any face off. It is merely an answer to requests for information, and here are a few sample materials.
      >  
      > Because my Yahoo connection does not let me attach more than 5 things at a time, this delivery will be in multiple sends. (Again I state, I have all respect, appreciation, even awe and delight in seeing the fantastic work that Scott Wolter has accomplished in leaps and bounds over all other research done on the KRS's authentication since its discovery. His techno-advances are acknowledgably cutting edge and certainly cornerstone not only to the realization of the KRS's role in history but key evidence to breaking the old historical paradigm. Kudos!)
      >  
      > Terry, yes, Margaret Leuthner did publish. Her book was sold as a matter of course in the giftshop of the Museum where the Kensington Runestone is housed and preserved.
      > Dick Nielson certainly had a copy and had talked on many occasions with Margaret as they both were frequent visitors to the museum. Most of the museum staff would have had personal copies of the booklet. Anybody who was researching the Stone, Janey Weston, Michael Zalar, Marion Dahm, Judy Rudebusch as well as other high profile names in the Kensington/Alexandria epigraphy community were well acquainted with Margaret and her theories. True, not all agreed with her conclusions. But that does not mean her ideas were not well circulated, well known as to source, and acknowledged as having independent unit-value as basis for perhaps different conclusions.
      >  
      > Here I have attached a composite .jpg of her bookcover, scanned for front and back.
      > The inner pages contain many topics and subject matters concerning the Quest Crew, which her cipher work would seem to reveal. This book was printed earlier, long before I met her myself,  in her own avocational adventure with the Stone. During the period I worked with Margaret, towards the end of her time, she admitted that she wished she could go back and revamp some of the incorrect theories she'd been pursuing at the time of that publication.
      >  
      > To that end, we had been in the early stages of planning a whole, fresh book with new illustrations, which weeded out some of the erroneous material of her previous work. But she passed over before we could actually get it outlined completely. At the time of her death, I returned many of the notes and letters regarding the uncompleted volume to Margaret's family so that they could keep the materiels together, for there was no guarantee that what she was brainstorming to me got copied into her own notes back in her files. The next scholar who might have the chance to go thru her things would need those pieces to see where the new book had been heading.
      >  
      > Never the less, the bulk of the pages in "The Kensington Runestone; Crusade to Vinland" contain valid observations about the runes and accurate, historical, medieval processes in dealing with script and script purpose. Margaret was a devout Catholic. Some fault her for that. But so were the crew of the Knorr. Much of her work, in my POV, was valid in that the best way to find a hiding bird is to send a bird dog to find it, somebody who understands the quarry on a nearly genetic level of empathy. Margaret was a professional librarian and passionate historian in all things of Medieval religion; Gaelic, Celtic, Nordic Esatru and Christian.
      >  
      > I am, like Susan, paradoxically a `religion' agnostic while at the same time being a spiritual adept. But it was a delightful study to watch Margaret seek out the knorr crew's mind patterns, as she found it comfortingly familiar to follow in their footsteps. Where my head would be attempting to tread some strange, alien land of disorienting concepts or odd litanies, Margaret's ability to recognize how they would `put' something I believe was helping her realize the coding methods Ivar the scribe-priest was utilizing. 
      >  
      > It was not necessary that I `believe' as a Christian (or any other faith base) in order to be taught to visualize a potential message. Same as it isn't necessary for the hunter to `smell' the same birdscent that the hound does, in order to come back with results. But it helps to simply accept differences without depreciation. Reading Margaret's book without prejudice, without preconceived elitism because of some difference of opinion has led me to some excellent foundations in my own epigraphic algorithms.
      >  
      > Also attached here are some sample pages from inside the book. Copies of this book permeated the Kensington community. If one but spoke with other people of the Kensington/Alexandria research community, personally meeting Margaret wouldn't be necessary to hear quite a bit, both critical and supportive of her ideas. It was her conceptual work which identified, only lightly encoded, the references to God, and to Ivar the stone's author, which the Museum has incorporated into their accepted, factual, interpretive presentation of the stone and its message.
      >  
      > More in the next send.
      > -chris
      >
      >
      > --- On Tue, 2/3/09, Terry J. Deveau aa376@... wrote:
      >
      > From: Terry J. Deveau aa376@...
      > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Margaret Leuthner
      > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Tuesday, February 3, 2009, 6:01 AM
      >
      > --- "Chris Patenaude" yacrispyubetcha@ wrote:
      >
      > > the late, brilliant cryptographer Margaret Leuthner who spent
      > > the last 40 years of her life, to her dying day, working on
      > > the Kensington Runestone and it's epigraphy.
      >
      > Hi Chris,
      >
      > Thanks for the note. I don't recall hearing about Margaret Leuthner
      > before. Did she publish any books or articles of any kind? (In ESOP or
      > anywhere at all?)
      >
      > Regards,
      > Terry
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >

    • Chris Patenaude
      Hi Susan, You must have an older version. It got reprinted later than that with her full name on the cover, Margaret Barry Leuthner. [say Light-ner ]   Do
      Message 2 of 4 , Feb 9 10:06 AM
      • 0 Attachment
        Hi Susan,
        You must have an older version. It got reprinted later than that with her full name on the cover, Margaret Barry Leuthner. [say "Light-ner"]
         
        Do not be confused. Magaret NEVER considered the KRS to be a 'hoax' in the modern sense at all. When she wrote that, she meant that the stone was carved with incrypted information from its inception, and passed ITSELF off as a 'plain' memorial marker. THAT was the 650 yr old 'hoax' she was referring to.
         
        There are layers and layers of concepts that the cryptographer can follow which are incorporated into the texts. The 'apparent' misspells, grammatical errors and language morphs are all a part of the underlying message and were necessary to display the text in such manner in order to weave the hidden messages into the wording.
         
        Again, 'I' am NOT by any means defined as a cryptologist, especially when i had gotten to know Margaret's abilities to see just what kind of gears my brain was missing! i don't understand physics formulas beyond freshman level. This does not mean the stars cannot be calculated nor science build space-vehicles to go there. Just because i, personally, cannot fathom the laws of gravity in a mathematical way does not mean they aren't there! Just because any other person can't figure out what the medieval-trained minds were capable of in cryptography does not mean the Art was not being employed. To argue that there is NO hidden message in the KRS because it remains hidden, is circular and an error of logic.
         
        Margaret, myself and a host of others were, are and will always be totally convinced of the authenticity of the KRS and its description of Scandinavian expedition into a territory they were already brushingly familiar with as a frontier-land. In repetition, i offer two excellent websites with all the information you need to know, or find out how to get it, about the KRS.

        >   http://www.kensingtonrunestone.com/   <

        >   http://www.geocities.com/thetropics/island/3634/index2.html   <

         

        Once more, it is with total laud and honor that i recognize and encourage everyone to read up on Scott Wolter's and Richard Nielsen's cutting edge research. Under Scott's dedicated efforts, the high-tech geologic proof is irrefutable and the dating of the Stone is guaranteed to be far in excess of the late 19th century Euro settlement of MN.

         

        Michael Zalar's website is a comfortable, legible place to get the overall story in a nutshell. He has that concise little FAQ booklet that covers the research efforts to date and the history of the Stone's discovery. The pages read like an interview in Question and Answer format. Mike is available for extremely intellegent talks and knowledgable lectures to your group, given transportation support. He is centered in the Twin Cities (St. Paul, MN specifically) and as far as i know, will drive up to 150 miles radius on his own driving to present. See contact info at his website, above.

        I have just located my own last 10 copies of the FAQ booklet from the last printing. Contact me offlist for aquisition (to AWS members).

        -chris



        --- On Thu, 2/5/09, Susan <beldingenglish@...> wrote:
        From: Susan <beldingenglish@...>
        Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Margaret Leuthner; Reply 1 (
        To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Thursday, February 5, 2009, 1:54 PM

        Chris,
        I am down at the library...I believe there is a copy of Margaret Luethner's book somewhere, or I saw it on Marion Dahm's bookshelf, but apparently it is long out of print.  From the first file in your first Post yesterday is the front cover of  Crusade to Vinland-The Kensington Runestone (1988) , An Explorer Book, by Margaret Barry.
        I cannot upload this at home, and for those others with older computers, I am including the other page from the first link.  My question is, from the page or back cover of the green booklet above....were these the same conclusions Margaret had about the Kensington Runestone nearly thirty years later, or did she eventually find evidence leading her to believe it was not a hoax?
        You might have spelled it out clearly in your Posts, but other than  years of accompanying Marion Dahm to conferences, reading his letters,  and listening to him give talks at museums, around campfires (while I cooked!),  picnic tables, and that the Kensington Runestone museum about it not being a hoax, I was unfamiliar personally with those who were saying it was not authentic.  Susan  (see below---the file you sent was nicely formatted, copied from Margaret's book, presumably the back cover):
         The Kensington Runestone has a secret language - English!
        Yes, it has garbled Swedish grammar.
        Yes, it has misspelled words.
        Yes, it has mystical runes and cryptography.
        Secret Codes
        Secret Ciphers
        Secret Word Games
        Scholars are absolutely correct.
        The Kensington Runestone is a hoax.
        625 Years Old
        HISTORY CANNOT BE THE SAME AFTER READING THIS BOOK
        Dare To Believe
        ______________________________________________________

        --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Hello Terry, Stan, Susan, all
        > This is not to `stand up' for "my" side or any face off. It is merely an answer to requests for information, and here are a few sample materials.
        >  
        > Because my Yahoo connection does not let me attach more than 5 things at a time, this delivery will be in multiple sends. (Again I state, I have all respect, appreciation, even awe and delight in seeing the fantastic work that Scott Wolter has accomplished in leaps and bounds over all other research done on the KRS's authentication since its discovery. His techno-advances are acknowledgably cutting edge and certainly cornerstone not only to the realization of the KRS's role in history but key evidence to breaking the old historical paradigm. Kudos!)
        >  
        > Terry, yes, Margaret Leuthner did publish. Her book was sold as a matter of course in the giftshop of the Museum where the Kensington Runestone is housed and preserved.
        > Dick Nielson certainly had a copy and had talked on many occasions with Margaret as they both were frequent visitors to the museum. Most of the museum staff would have had personal copies of the booklet. Anybody who was researching the Stone, Janey Weston, Michael Zalar, Marion Dahm, Judy Rudebusch as well as other high profile names in the Kensington/Alexandria epigraphy community were well acquainted with Margaret and her theories. True, not all agreed with her conclusions. But that does not mean her ideas were not well circulated, well known as to source, and acknowledged as having independent unit-value as basis for perhaps different conclusions.
        >  
        > Here I have attached a composite .jpg of her bookcover, scanned for front and back.
        > The inner pages contain many topics and subject matters concerning the Quest Crew, which her cipher work would seem to reveal. This book was printed earlier, long before I met her myself,  in her own avocational adventure with the Stone. During the period I worked with Margaret, towards the end of her time, she admitted that she wished she could go back and revamp some of the incorrect theories she'd been pursuing at the time of that publication.
        >  
        > To that end, we had been in the early stages of planning a whole, fresh book with new illustrations, which weeded out some of the erroneous material of her previous work. But she passed over before we could actually get it outlined completely. At the time of her death, I returned many of the notes and letters regarding the uncompleted volume to Margaret's family so that they could keep the materiels together, for there was no guarantee that what she was brainstorming to me got copied into her own notes back in her files. The next scholar who might have the chance to go thru her things would need those pieces to see where the new book had been heading.
        >  
        > Never the less, the bulk of the pages in "The Kensington Runestone; Crusade to Vinland" contain valid observations about the runes and accurate, historical, medieval processes in dealing with script and script purpose. Margaret was a devout Catholic. Some fault her for that. But so were the crew of the Knorr. Much of her work, in my POV, was valid in that the best way to find a hiding bird is to send a bird dog to find it, somebody who understands the quarry on a nearly genetic level of empathy. Margaret was a professional librarian and passionate historian in all things of Medieval religion; Gaelic, Celtic, Nordic Esatru and Christian.
        >  
        > I am, like Susan, paradoxically a `religion' agnostic while at the same time being a spiritual adept. But it was a delightful study to watch Margaret seek out the knorr crew's mind patterns, as she found it comfortingly familiar to follow in their footsteps. Where my head would be attempting to tread some strange, alien land of disorienting concepts or odd litanies, Margaret's ability to recognize how they would `put' something I believe was helping her realize the coding methods Ivar the scribe-priest was utilizing. 
        >  
        > It was not necessary that I `believe' as a Christian (or any other faith base) in order to be taught to visualize a potential message. Same as it isn't necessary for the hunter to `smell' the same birdscent that the hound does, in order to come back with results. But it helps to simply accept differences without depreciation. Reading Margaret's book without prejudice, without preconceived elitism because of some difference of opinion has led me to some excellent foundations in my own epigraphic algorithms.
        >  
        > Also attached here are some sample pages from inside the book. Copies of this book permeated the Kensington community. If one but spoke with other people of the Kensington/Alexandria research community, personally meeting Margaret wouldn't be necessary to hear quite a bit, both critical and supportive of her ideas. It was her conceptual work which identified, only lightly encoded, the references to God, and to Ivar the stone's author, which the Museum has incorporated into their accepted, factual, interpretive presentation of the stone and its message.
        >  
        > More in the next send.
        > -chris
        >
        >
        > --- On Tue, 2/3/09, Terry J. Deveau aa376@... wrote:
        >
        > From: Terry J. Deveau aa376@...
        > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Margaret Leuthner
        > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Tuesday, February 3, 2009, 6:01 AM
        >
        > --- "Chris Patenaude" yacrispyubetcha@ wrote:
        >
        > > the late, brilliant cryptographer Margaret Leuthner who spent
        > > the last 40 years of her life, to her dying day, working on
        > > the Kensington Runestone and it's epigraphy.
        >
        > Hi Chris,
        >
        > Thanks for the note. I don't recall hearing about Margaret Leuthner
        > before. Did she publish any books or articles of any kind? (In ESOP or
        > anywhere at all?)
        >
        > Regards,
        > Terry
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >



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