- ... Hi Chris, Thanks for the note. I don t recall hearing about Margaret Leuthner before. Did she publish any books or articles of any kind? (In ESOP orMessage 1 of 10 , Feb 3, 2009View Source--- "Chris Patenaude" <yacrispyubetcha@...> wrote:
> the late, brilliant cryptographer Margaret Leuthner who spentHi Chris,
> the last 40 years of her life, to her dying day, working on
> the Kensington Runestone and it's epigraphy.
Thanks for the note. I don't recall hearing about Margaret Leuthner
before. Did she publish any books or articles of any kind? (In ESOP or
anywhere at all?)
- Chris, I found your comments re Ms. Leuthner and the Hooked X most interesting. As a former academic researcher, I can fully sympathize with the agony andMessage 2 of 10 , Feb 3, 2009View SourceChris, I found your comments re Ms. Leuthner and the "Hooked X" most
interesting. As a former academic researcher, I can fully sympathize
with the agony and frustration of having original work that is
unpublished and unrecognized.
It would be wonderful (for her and for the field of research) if some
of her research could be peer-reviewed and published for critical
comment. Whether you could establish priority would depend on how
detailed/dated her notes were (or perhaps just by the existence of
abstracts or letters to editors if full manuscripts are not available.)
Depending on the state she left her work in, it may not be possible
for you to get her work into academic journals. If that's not
possible, please consider putting at least some of it on the web where
it can be accessed by search engines. The work you did as a graphic
artist could be uploaded as simple images to a variety of storage
sites that are catalogued by Google. And the textual material could
go to a place like Scribd (http://www.scribd.com/).
--- In email@example.com, "Chris Patenaude"
Scott Wolter did not 'discover' the Hooked X. That distinction belongs
to the late, brilliant cryptographer Margaret Leuthner who spent the
last 40 years of her life, to her dying day, working on the Kensington
Runestone and it's epigraphy. I personally was working with her in the
last 4 years of her research, cut short by medical complications, not
retirement from the effort.
She had me, as a graphic artist, create a working font of the extant
variants of Futhark runes as worked into the KRS message. She and I
discussed the different 'hooks' and marks on far more than just the
"X"s. (The letter G)
- Chris, All, You all know how I hate to do second-hand or forwarded letters and especially responses, Scott has asked to have his side put forth. He wouldMessage 3 of 10 , Feb 3, 2009View Source
You all know how I hate to do second-hand or forwarded letters and especially responses, Scott has asked to have his 'side' put forth. He would have to join AWS in order to post the letter himself, and I know many of his longer term friends have asked him to join their web sites. If he joins AWS, he has to join them all. So with Scott not being a member here, I hope this specific concern gets resolved in personal letters and emails, etc. Scott's address follows his letter.
I shall add my own letter after this. Ancient Waterways Society is not a chat group. I do feel we do some very serious research together, but it is also, to me a sharing of goodwill between dedicated avocational diffusioinists, scientists and those of many academic disciplines. Probably the only "chat" offender here at Ancient Waterways Society would be from my own 'pen' here...going on and on about nothing sometimes, and my apologies to the group for that. I need to go back an delete some of the old posts where only I driveled on and on and where there are posts not attached to anyone else's insights, posts or sound research.
I don't want this web group to get like many other diffusionist sites, some of which have gone underground to Members-only or have folded altogether because of getting away from their central purposes, and into ruthless competitiveness, slander and/or in-fighting. We have not gotten into any of that here, nor am I suggesting that will happen here.
I do see peaceful resolve, hope and harmony within the larger picture of all of this...especially this KRS controversy which has gone on over a century. Where perhaps there may not be agreement, may be be in alignment with each other, our higher purposes, our intentions, and good collective, collaborative work. We of an Ancient Waterways Society here.
From Scott Wolter this noon or early afternoon ( I have been wildly busy with other things today, though I did not get dispatched to Arkansas or Kentucky due to a large response of Red Cross volunteers and nurses); much of the area is still without power down there. I still have a dozen emails from the past two days to address, one or two which need to be put on our web site within the next day or two) So please, keep in mind some of the other fine messages from Vince, Martin, David, Zena, Chris and many here the past week or so, and to follow. That we not get bogged in the mud or lost in the tall reeds as we paddle together along our many route. We have lots to share here together, and more research friends, to come:
----- Original Message 2/03/09 -----
From: "Wolter, Scott" swolter@...
David asked if you would mind posting my response:
"You are quite correct that I knew nothing about Margaret's cryptography research. I met Margaret one time for lunch in Alexandria around 2003 and all we talked about was the Medicine Stone you sent me photographs of at that time. We never even talked about the KRS. Margaret talked about the Medicine Stone in a Catholic sense and quite frankly, I didn't understand where she was going with it.With regard to her KRS research, I knew nothing about it. Did she publish anything of her findings? I think it's important for Chris to understand that my research and Margaret's are ideologically opposite in our conclusions. With all due respect to Margaret and Chris, I think her criticism is unfounded. My research was performed completely independent of anything Margaret was doing. I think it is also important for Chris to understand that the work I'm doing has nothing to do with cryptography as I understand it. Perhaps she should wait to read my research when it's published before posting criticism on chat sites.
I also don't recall saying anything negative about Margaret, other than I had a hard time understanding some of the ideas she tried to convey. That was probably my fault."Scott F. Wolter P.G.
Minnesota License #30024
American Petrographic Services Inc.
550 Cleveland Ave N.
St. Paul, MN 55114--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "Chris Patenaude" <yacrispyubetcha@...> wrote:
> Scott Wolter did not 'discover' the Hooked X.
> That distinction belongs to the late, brilliant cryptographer
> Margaret Leuthner who spent the last 40 years of her life, to her
> dying day, working on the Kensington Runestone and it's epigraphy. I
> personally was working with her in the last 4 years of her research,
> cut short by medical complications, not retirement from the effort.
> She had me, as a graphic artist, create a working font of the extant
> variants of Futhark runes as worked into the KRS message. She and I
> discussed the different 'hooks' and marks on far more than just
> the "X"s. (The letter G)
> Margaret's research was evolving and revealing as many as seven
> layers of referral information contained in the patterns of the
> carefully placed runes on the face and side of the KRS. As her
> confidence in her findings solidified, she was not in the least shy
> to try and inform the 'mainstream' KRS research community to pay
> attention to the linguistic details and messages woven into the text
> of the Stone. Her findings included numerological as well as syntax
> methods known to medieval cyphers and codes. She was featured in a
> Shepherd's Chapel 'homestyle' documentary regarding the KRS and her
> findings some 'mere' 18 yrs or so into her studies. Already she had
> pointed out who carved the stone and where he was from.
> But because of her cutting edge and therefore 'fringe' concepts, she
> was belittled and ridiculed for her now-being-proven revolutionary
> insight. Scott Wolter was quite vocal on several occasions before
> Margaret's death in his critical and demeaning opinions of her
> ongoing research, including any legitimacy in finding ligatures, new
> forms, inserted lines or details of the runes which might shed
> complex meaning other than the straight story.
> Once she died and couldn't stick up for herself anymore, Scott began
> adopting things Margaret Leuthner discovered for his own acclaim. It
> is marvelous that he is finding new ground and progressing on further
> evidence of the Hooked X and it's meanings. But he should make better
> acknowledgement on whose shoulders he is standing.
> I do not wish to make any enemies, i have all great admiration for
> Scott and his fantastic advances for the pubic awareness for the KRS.
> I am not picking 'sides' in any argument, simply stating a fact.
> Margaret and I were working on Hooked X and far, far more before
> Scott ever heard of the KRS. I have the files to prove it. Margaret
> personally expressed being dispirited from some of Scott's remarks
> and predicted that he would have a sharp change of heart once his own
> geological studies began to show evidence. I guess he did.
> Margaret Leuthner's family still have her un-catalogued research
> materials and notes. According to her Will, she had wanted them
> sorted and the research material donated to the Douglas County (MN)
> historical community in some form. The filing has just not been done,
> yet, last i heard, because no one in her family could wrap their
> heads around everything she was doing and did not know where to start
> separating personal from sharable paperwork.
> I'm sure if the family were approached by a serious researcher, they
> would have little or no problem being allowed access to the papers so
> long as they were referenced and annotated. Good luck, it's a huge
> and complex pile, but she was a professional librarian, so kept
> things in fairly logical order, if the family has retained her files.
> Just felt the need to clarify a few things.
> --- In email@example.com, "anitastclair"
> saintclair1398@ [Steve] wrote:
> > I'm finally allowed to discuss something I've become somewhat
> involved in with a company called Committee Films. They're working on
> a documentary about an unusual symbol called the Hooked X. This
> symbol is showing up in several places on this continent and in
> > Europe consistent with a pre-Columbus discovery story of North
> America. The man who discovered the symbol and is researching it's
> possible significance is Scott Wolter.
> > Scott is a geologist by trade and an amateur researcher
> (Diffusionist) who was a speaker at the Atlantic Conference in
> August. In fact, you can see him in the sample film on the
> > website - http://www.AtlanticConference.org
> > Susan and Terry saw this presentation.
> > Scott did groundbreaking work on verifying the Kensington Runestone
> and has a book out on this.
> > http://www.kensingtonrunestone.com
> > At the conference, he made a presentation on an unusual symbol on
> the Kensington Runestone (see the Photos link at left to see this
> symbol). He's calling it the Hooked X.
> > Because of his upcoming book and movie, I could not include this
> presentation in the DVD set, but I will this spring or summer. The
> news, however, is this -
> > The trailer for the upcoming film on the Hooked X, being produced
> and directed by Committee Films, has won top prize at the National
> Association of TV Production Executives. As a result, the movie and
> Andy Awes, the producer/director are generating a great deal of
> interest from -
> > The Discovery Channel
> > The History Channel
> > PBS
> > National Geographic
> > Parade Magazine
> > etc. etc.
> > Please see the trailer at this link -
> > http://www.committeefilms.com/qts/aa/shona_aa.html
> > It's now looking like the movie will be picked up by one of these
> TV channels, production will be complete and the movie will air.
> Scott is also publishing a book on the Hooked X.
> > For the Sinclair family, this is significant -
> > The Hooked X was found on the Kensington Runestone.
> > It was found on the Spirit Pond Runestone (the Mapstone).
> > It was found on the Narragansett, Rhode Island inscription stone
> > It has been found, with Niven's help, on an ancient Astrolabe held
> at Oxford University dated c. 1350-1400 AD.
> > It has been found on the sigla of Christopher Columbus.
> > And (drum roll please) it was found in Rosslyn Chapel.
> > Both Scott and David Brody
> > http://tinylink.com/?K6IbUQCvBP
> > have said, Jarl Henry St. Clair is really the only candidate at
> this time.
> > The Kensington Runestone inscription translated -
> > "8 Goths and 22 Norweigans on exploration journey from Vinland over
> the west. We camp by 2 skerries one day-journey from this stone. We
> were and fished one day. After we came home, 10 men red with blood
> and tourtured. AVM, save from evil. Have 10 men by the sea to look
> after our ship, 14 day -journeys from this island year 1362."
- Thank you Terry and (founder of this Ancient Waterways Society web site) MinnesotaStan, for thought-proking letters here. I think Stan has made some excellentMessage 4 of 10 , Feb 3, 2009View Source
Thank you Terry and (founder of this Ancient Waterways Society web site) MinnesotaStan, for thought-proking letters here.
I think Stan has made some excellent suggestions and solutions based upon decades of academic research experience, and it is my sincere hope too, Chris, that you are able to explore some of those avenues he mentioned so as to publish some of the work you and Margaret did together for so many years on the Hooked X and other areas of research. There is plenty of room to further add to the missing pieces which have stayed obscure for a century. To quote the astute AAPS slogan from their Home Page....The Ancient Artifact Preservation Society...Bringing together Diverse Pieces of the Ancient American Puzzle
Though the KRS and runic script is an area of research I know very little about, I trust that sincere and astute researchers looking at all viable, incoming data are wise enough to determine what will fit and what will not, and get to the heart and roots of some of these things.
I'd spent several years writing to, camping with, and transporting KRS researcher Marion Dahm to conferences, meetings, to sites along SW Lake Superior and ancient W. Lake Michigan shores. And with so many of you newcomer members and onlookers at Ancient Waterways Society, I need to get into even more serious study about these avenues of research.
The past week or so I also received personal emails from several older researchers from 'Scandinavia' , New Zealand, Canada and the UK who had plenty to say about runes, and two or three on what is called the "hooked X'..... all from varying perspectives and uses of the symbol. Interesting as it all seems to be, it would seem from my perspective that it is a hot potato similar to the old 'who discovered America' subject. And not to be "arenas" of study but "avenues" of research. As the main focus of this group here...common, amicable "international waters" that we navigate here together seeking our common bond and purpose. And that soundness of mind, diplomacy and 'heartfulness' need to be kept always in the forefront. I am privileged to have every one of you here at this web site as members.
Inexperienced as I am in such things, it has been my good fortune to be not only a participant but a background assistant with the ongoing work of the Atlantic Conference. I was and still am am 'culture shocked into the realities that I once use lived under. Issues such as the archaic "Who Discovered America" or "Who was First" ways of investigating the Old and New World(s) were not even raised as issues among any of the speakers nor side-talks throughout the three+ day conference and following week of post-conference field trips with Terry D. I still see such senseless topics raised in international magazine artcles and TV documentaries. Though peoples have lived and navigated unknowablye countless tens of millinnea within the Americas and trans-continentally. People from all over the world sitting in Nature and academic rooms together, amicably bringing in loftier, more sensible subjects to investigate.
The " Hooked X" too, seems to have been known and used for an indeterminable length of time in various regions of 'Scandinavia', and likely in the Americas beyond the KRS. What I like about what Steve St. Clair, Scott Wolter, the Davids, Zena, and others are doing, and hopefully Chris, too, is that through each of your writings, that is this Hooked X exploration and the KRS situation is finally coming to light openly, publicly, and evolving civilly....finally, after well over a century. Despite decades of fears, superstitions, negativities, victimizations, isolated and the many narrow religious contexts in which runic writings have been viewed are finally being put aside. And this work is going forward.
I personally am glad to see things like the "Hooked X" and other runic symbols surrounding the Kensington Runestone being put into scientific scrutiny in contexts such as the geology and chemistry of the KRS and inscriptions, the trans-Atlantic geography, extensive examination of the sociology, archaeology, and history , writings, interviews....across and between both continents. Perservering, going forward and out in the open. Not 'mere' and 'more' micro-level examinations of multiple, ambiguous interpretations of the symbology ad infinitum. Instead we are seeing evolving macro-level contexts of the Hooked X and other inscriptions, along with the many other factors associated with the KRS still forthcoming.
I look forward to all of the ongoing information on this subject, and Scott's book coming out this Spring. I have heard several of his talks, and if some of you recall whe and friends were scuba diving near Copper Harbor last May, Scott was kind enough to drive over to Lakeside Resort in Eagle Harbor, MI to speak both Friday and Saturday evenings when twenty or more of us met at the Lake Superior resort for the three day informal weekend gathering set up in honor of the Pennington's filming.
I also look forward to articles, books, talks from many of you here on this subject. And I thank those of you who try to provide kindly and sound suggestions and feedback toward each other's work. Judi Rudebusch the past several weeks has been most helpful in helping greet new members with whom she is acquainted of research I am not so familiar.
As with the two new member Davids here....with David Goursward's 55,000 word unpublished book on the Westford Knight and David Brody's recent book on the same subject...both gentlemen remain complimentary and noncompetitive of each other..as you may recall from David Gousward recently:
Two books with entirely different perspectives on the same
site - the absolutely best possible thing for that site, which needs a
higher profile and more local support.
Experience tells me this kind of mutual, rather than competitive regard will reap further synchronicities and rewards for all of us tuned into such intentions and diligent pursuits and sharing of our work. All who seek more accurate and higher avenues of understanding of these subjects.
--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "minnesotastan" <minnesotastan@...> wrote:
> Chris, I found your comments re Ms. Leuthner and the "Hooked X" most
> interesting. As a former academic researcher, I can fully sympathize
> with the agony and frustration of having original work that is
> unpublished and unrecognized.
> It would be wonderful (for her and for the field of research) if some
> of her research could be peer-reviewed and published for critical
> comment. Whether you could establish priority would depend on how
> detailed/dated her notes were (or perhaps just by the existence of
> abstracts or letters to editors if full manuscripts are not available.)
> Depending on the state she left her work in, it may not be possible
> for you to get her work into academic journals. If that's not
> possible, please consider putting at least some of it on the web where
> it can be accessed by search engines. The work you did as a graphic
> artist could be uploaded as simple images to a variety of storage
> sites that are catalogued by Google. And the textual material could
> go to a place like Scribd (http://www.scribd.com/).
> --- In email@example.com, "Chris Patenaude"
> yacrispyubetcha@ wrote:
> Scott Wolter did not 'discover' the Hooked X. That distinction belongs
> to the late, brilliant cryptographer Margaret Leuthner who spent the
> last 40 years of her life, to her dying day, working on the Kensington
> Runestone and it's epigraphy. I personally was working with her in the
> last 4 years of her research, cut short by medical complications, not
> retirement from the effort.
> She had me, as a graphic artist, create a working font of the extant
> variants of Futhark runes as worked into the KRS message. She and I
> discussed the different 'hooks' and marks on far more than just the
> "X"s. (The letter G)