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Standing stones underwater in Lake Michigan? or not??

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  • minnesotastan
    I just ran across an item about a possible Stonehenge in I think Traverse Bay, Lake Michigan. The article, with some sonar images, was carried in the
    Message 1 of 13 , Jan 6 1:28 PM
      I just ran across an item about a possible "Stonehenge" in I think
      Traverse Bay, Lake Michigan. The article, with some sonar images, was
      carried in the Bldgblog architecture blog this week. The data it is
      citing dates back to 2007.

      In the article they also discuss the recovery of possible petroglyphs
      from the bottom of the lake, with links to an NPR webcast and a
      Discovery Channel report.

      I don't know whether this "Stonehenge" is familiar to AWS members;
      perhaps it has already been discussed on this board, but I can't
      remember specifically.

      I've put photos of the sonar images and links to the original site and
      links about the petroglyphs in my blog -

      http://tywkiwdbi.blogspot.com/

      Please feel free to visit there and offer any comments. It's not an
      archaeology/prehistory blog, so the visitors there will probably not
      have any data to offer, or know of any developments since 2007 on this
      find, but perhaps someone here will.

      Thanks in advance,

      Stan
    • Terry J. Deveau
      [http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_SqhhJb_P3Kk/SWPKDzj41KI/AAAAAAAAEJU/d9MORSxir sQ/s400/Stonehenge+Lake+Superior.jpg]
      Message 2 of 13 , Jan 7 9:22 AM

        Nothing in the above sonar image looks unnatural to me.

        It is common to find boulders lying around underwater.

        Even far out at sea, where mud and fine sediments are accumulating, "rafted" boulders are regularly seen, having been frozen into shore ice near the coast, then carried out to sea with the ice floes on an offshore wind, then dropped to the bottom when the melting ice loosed its grip a bit.

        Terry

      • judi_rudebusch
        Hello the group, Yes, the pictures are intriquing. The name of the man working on this- Dr. Mark Holley- really jumped out at me. I remember getting a phone
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 9 4:48 AM
          Hello the group,

          Yes, the pictures are intriquing. The name of the man working on
          this- Dr. Mark Holley- really jumped out at me. I remember getting
          a phone call from Scott Wolter last year telling me to talk to
          another man on the line- Mark Holley. He did survey work in the
          United Kingdom and had come across some rock with the holes in them
          (my passion for finding answers to).
          He and Scott did some diving work at this site in the article last
          year. I talked to Scott about it last night and he was glad to hear
          that this was coming out... and that it was very interesting and
          more will be coming to the forefront.
          If any want to read on Dr. Mark, just google him. Put the Dr. in
          front of his name to refine the articles.

          Judi


          --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "minnesotastan"
          <minnesotastan@...> wrote:
          >
          > I just ran across an item about a possible "Stonehenge" in I think
          > Traverse Bay, Lake Michigan. The article, with some sonar images,
          was
          > carried in the Bldgblog architecture blog this week. The data it
          is
          > citing dates back to 2007.
          >
          > In the article they also discuss the recovery of possible
          petroglyphs
          > from the bottom of the lake, with links to an NPR webcast and a
          > Discovery Channel report.
          >
          > I don't know whether this "Stonehenge" is familiar to AWS members;
          > perhaps it has already been discussed on this board, but I can't
          > remember specifically.
          >
          > I've put photos of the sonar images and links to the original site
          and
          > links about the petroglyphs in my blog -
          >
          > http://tywkiwdbi.blogspot.com/
          >
          > Please feel free to visit there and offer any comments. It's not
          an
          > archaeology/prehistory blog, so the visitors there will probably
          not
          > have any data to offer, or know of any developments since 2007 on
          this
          > find, but perhaps someone here will.
          >
          > Thanks in advance,
          >
          > Stan
          >
        • judi_rudebusch
          HI Just an add on to an add-on! Had an email from Scott. I told him that they were going to be talking about this news on Rick Osman s OOPA-LOOPA CAFE
          Message 4 of 13 , Jan 9 8:09 AM
            HI
            Just an add on to an add-on!

            Had an email from Scott. I told him that they were going to be
            talking about this news on Rick Osman's OOPA-LOOPA CAFE
            blogradioshow last night- and it was some very interesting listening
            to Vince and Rick talk on this.
            Scott emailed to Rick and I this morning, and I will quote: " I
            talked to Mark Holley last night and he said that I could talk about
            to whomever about his work on the underwater site we dove on last
            year. The only thing is that I can't say where it is. He mentioned
            some really intreresting things that were not in the article
            including the discovery of two more stone circles and an arrow of
            rocks. What amazed me more than anything was that rocks are laid
            out equidistant exactly 25.6 feet apart!" Scott goes on to
            say, "Must be glacial randomness???? He said a couple of American
            archaeologists said the site was "fake" even though they hadn't even
            looked at photos or his sector scan data. Where have I heard that
            before? He said in 2008 he gave presentations about this research in
            Europe and the archaeogists say his work is great. The site is
            really amazing." End quote.

            It would be great to get Scott and Mark on Rick's show for all of us
            to listen to and ask our questions!

            Judi


            --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "judi_rudebusch"
            <judij@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hello the group,
            >
            > Yes, the pictures are intriquing. The name of the man working on
            > this- Dr. Mark Holley- really jumped out at me. I remember
            getting
            > a phone call from Scott Wolter last year telling me to talk to
            > another man on the line- Mark Holley. He did survey work in the
            > United Kingdom and had come across some rock with the holes in
            them
            > (my passion for finding answers to).
            > He and Scott did some diving work at this site in the article last
            > year. I talked to Scott about it last night and he was glad to
            hear
            > that this was coming out... and that it was very interesting and
            > more will be coming to the forefront.
            > If any want to read on Dr. Mark, just google him. Put the Dr. in
            > front of his name to refine the articles.
            >
            > Judi
            >
            >
            > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "minnesotastan"
            > <minnesotastan@> wrote:
            > >
            > > I just ran across an item about a possible "Stonehenge" in I
            think
            > > Traverse Bay, Lake Michigan. The article, with some sonar
            images,
            > was
            > > carried in the Bldgblog architecture blog this week. The data
            it
            > is
            > > citing dates back to 2007.
            > >
            > > In the article they also discuss the recovery of possible
            > petroglyphs
            > > from the bottom of the lake, with links to an NPR webcast and a
            > > Discovery Channel report.
            > >
            > > I don't know whether this "Stonehenge" is familiar to AWS
            members;
            > > perhaps it has already been discussed on this board, but I can't
            > > remember specifically.
            > >
            > > I've put photos of the sonar images and links to the original
            site
            > and
            > > links about the petroglyphs in my blog -
            > >
            > > http://tywkiwdbi.blogspot.com/
            > >
            > > Please feel free to visit there and offer any comments. It's
            not
            > an
            > > archaeology/prehistory blog, so the visitors there will probably
            > not
            > > have any data to offer, or know of any developments since 2007
            on
            > this
            > > find, but perhaps someone here will.
            > >
            > > Thanks in advance,
            > >
            > > Stan
            > >
            >
          • Terry J. Deveau
            Would some one please explain to me what all the excitement is about? I am not trying to be a wet blanket -- I just don t see anything at all in that sector
            Message 5 of 13 , Jan 9 8:26 AM
              Would some one please explain to me what all the excitement is about?

              I am not trying to be a "wet blanket" -- I just don't see anything at
              all in that sector scan that looks manmade. What am I missing? I'm
              sure it must be "just me". Would someone please take the time to
              explain to me where the "stone circle" is in the undewater sector scan
              image?

              I'm not trying to be difficult here. I honestly can't see it at all.

              Thanks.

              Terry
            • Susan
              Stan, Judi, Terry, and All, I am in the middle of a series of 12 hour nights out of town which affords time for less sleep than usual. But I do like to check
              Message 6 of 13 , Jan 10 7:12 AM

                Stan, Judi, Terry, and All,

                I am in the middle of a series of 12 hour nights out of town which affords time for less sleep than usual.  But I do like to check the AWS site to make sure there is no spam, etc.  Since Vince is an early member here and not  host/cohost of another web group or media program, I am going to check with host MinnesotaStan and Vince himself to see if they are both OK with Vince being given  management edit powers (and cordiality responsibilities) to be a second co-host here.  Especially if I ever get called to a remote area for a three week Red Cross disaster assignment within the next several months.   Anyone else here interested in future co-hosting and feel a real kinship to this small group and best intents here...please let Stan or myself know.   I do think some fine, unique  intercommunications and research enhancements are possible here, as members continue to get to know each other and personalize the best of who they are and ideas/research they choose to share here.

                Nova Scotian Terry Deveau is filling in for John Coleman as host at the NSExplore (Nova Scotia) group; he, Judi Rudebusch and I are members...not sure if other AWS members are also.  But the following post unrelated to the subjects being discussed over there currently just happened to turn up the following link.  No one can know how long I have been seeking a good Beaver Island (MI) web site...I'd searched for some time.  But had become acquainted long ago at World Explorers Club conferences (David Hatcher Childress) in C. Illinois with a number of Beaver Island residents, even had an invitiation to stay with the librarian years ago.  And have never been, lost the contact info.

                But besides the NSExplore person giving me a good site, consider the possiblity the link and subject matter may not be too far removed from the current discussion taht Terry is having difficulty getting even a tad 'excited' about 'considering even the remotest possiblities of' , as a scientist.

                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NSExplore/message/9349

                I am trying to get four people who wrote about the link who are not AWS members to join and post because I am not posting for people much any more, and frankly am so busy I cannot keep up. yawn...heading for bed

                Thanks so much for keeping this site going.....Susan..... bore

                --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "minnesotastan" <minnesotastan@...> wrote:
                >
                > I just ran across an item about a possible "Stonehenge" in I think
                > Traverse Bay, Lake Michigan. The article, with some sonar images, was
                > carried in the Bldgblog architecture blog this week. The data it is
                > citing dates back to 2007.
                >
                > In the article they also discuss the recovery of possible petroglyphs
                > from the bottom of the lake, with links to an NPR webcast and a
                > Discovery Channel report.
                >
                > I don't know whether this "Stonehenge" is familiar to AWS members;
                > perhaps it has already been discussed on this board, but I can't
                > remember specifically.
                >
                > I've put photos of the sonar images and links to the original site and
                > links about the petroglyphs in my blog -
                >
                > http://tywkiwdbi.blogspot.com/
                >
                > Please feel free to visit there and offer any comments. It's not an
                > archaeology/prehistory blog, so the visitors there will probably not
                > have any data to offer, or know of any developments since 2007 on this
                > find, but perhaps someone here will.
                >
                > Thanks in advance,
                >
                > Stan
                >

              • judi_rudebusch
                HI Susan, The url site you noted: Beaver Island- who do I contact? The picture pic d my interest right off, thought there were holes there... read farther
                Message 7 of 13 , Jan 10 8:23 AM
                  HI Susan,

                  The url site you noted: Beaver Island- who do I contact? The
                  picture pic'd my interest right off, thought there were holes
                  there... read farther and Yes. I would be interested in more
                  photos/ any contacts who have viewed them for their input. Their
                  ideas on alignments are of interest.
                  Thanks,

                  Judi


                  --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
                  <beldingenglish@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Stan, Judi, Terry, and All,
                  >
                  > I am in the middle of a series of 12 hour nights out of town which
                  > affords time for less sleep than usual. But I do like to check
                  the AWS
                  > site to make sure there is no spam, etc. Since Vince is an early
                  member
                  > here and not host/cohost of another web group or media program, I
                  am
                  > going to check with host MinnesotaStan and Vince himself to see if
                  they
                  > are both OK with Vince being given management edit powers (and
                  > cordiality responsibilities) to be a second co-host here.
                  Especially if
                  > I ever get called to a remote area for a three week Red Cross
                  disaster
                  > assignment within the next several months. Anyone else here
                  interested
                  > in future co-hosting and feel a real kinship to this small group
                  and
                  > best intents here...please let Stan or myself know. I do think
                  some
                  > fine, unique intercommunications and research enhancements are
                  possible
                  > here, as members continue to get to know each other and
                  personalize the
                  > best of who they are and ideas/research they choose to share here.
                  >
                  > Nova Scotian Terry Deveau is filling in for John Coleman as host
                  at the
                  > NSExplore (Nova Scotia) group; he, Judi Rudebusch and I are
                  > members...not sure if other AWS members are also. But the
                  following
                  > post unrelated to the subjects being discussed over there
                  currently just
                  > happened to turn up the following link. No one can know how long
                  I have
                  > been seeking a good Beaver Island (MI) web site...I'd searched for
                  some
                  > time. But had become acquainted long ago at World Explorers Club
                  > conferences (David Hatcher Childress) in C. Illinois with a number
                  of
                  > Beaver Island residents, even had an invitiation to stay with the
                  > librarian years ago. And have never been, lost the contact info.
                  >
                  > But besides the NSExplore person giving me a good site, consider
                  the
                  > possiblity the link and subject matter may not be too far removed
                  from
                  > the current discussion taht Terry is having difficulty getting
                  even a
                  > tad 'excited' about 'considering even the remotest possiblities
                  of' , as
                  > a scientist.
                  >
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NSExplore/message/9349
                  > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NSExplore/message/9349>
                  >
                  > I am trying to get four people who wrote about the link who are
                  not AWS
                  > members to join and post because I am not posting for people much
                  any
                  > more, and frankly am so busy I cannot keep up. yawn...heading for
                  bed
                  >
                  > Thanks so much for keeping this site going.....Susan..... [bore]
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "minnesotastan"
                  > <minnesotastan@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > I just ran across an item about a possible "Stonehenge" in I
                  think
                  > > Traverse Bay, Lake Michigan. The article, with some sonar
                  images, was
                  > > carried in the Bldgblog architecture blog this week. The data it
                  is
                  > > citing dates back to 2007.
                  > >
                  > > In the article they also discuss the recovery of possible
                  petroglyphs
                  > > from the bottom of the lake, with links to an NPR webcast and a
                  > > Discovery Channel report.
                  > >
                  > > I don't know whether this "Stonehenge" is familiar to AWS
                  members;
                  > > perhaps it has already been discussed on this board, but I can't
                  > > remember specifically.
                  > >
                  > > I've put photos of the sonar images and links to the original
                  site and
                  > > links about the petroglyphs in my blog -
                  > >
                  > > http://tywkiwdbi.blogspot.com/
                  > >
                  > > Please feel free to visit there and offer any comments. It's not
                  an
                  > > archaeology/prehistory blog, so the visitors there will probably
                  not
                  > > have any data to offer, or know of any developments since 2007
                  on this
                  > > find, but perhaps someone here will.
                  > >
                  > > Thanks in advance,
                  > >
                  > > Stan
                  > >
                  >
                • Rick Osmon
                  Just to facilitate a clear understanding of the Traverse Bay site discovered by Dr. Mark Holley, I have invited him and he has accepted my invitation to be on
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jan 10 6:04 PM
                    Just to facilitate a clear understanding of the Traverse Bay site
                    discovered by Dr. Mark Holley, I have invited him and he has accepted
                    my invitation to be on the Oopa Loopa Cafe. That segment will be live
                    beginning at 9 PM on 22 Jan.

                    Mark indicated that there are a few areas of discussion that are off
                    limits due to an ongoing legal battle with the State of Michigan, but
                    that he will be happy to address any questions that don't tread on
                    that law suit.

                    Scott Wolter, who has also visited the Traverse Bay site, will also
                    participate in that discussion and, separately, will provide an update
                    on his Newport Tower research.



                    --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "judi_rudebusch"
                    <judij@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > HI Susan,
                    >
                    > The url site you noted: Beaver Island- who do I contact? The
                    > picture pic'd my interest right off, thought there were holes
                    > there... read farther and Yes. I would be interested in more
                    > photos/ any contacts who have viewed them for their input. Their
                    > ideas on alignments are of interest.
                    > Thanks,
                    >
                    > Judi
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
                    > <beldingenglish@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Stan, Judi, Terry, and All,
                    > >
                    > > I am in the middle of a series of 12 hour nights out of town which
                    > > affords time for less sleep than usual. But I do like to check
                    > the AWS
                    > > site to make sure there is no spam, etc. Since Vince is an early
                    > member
                    > > here and not host/cohost of another web group or media program, I
                    > am
                    > > going to check with host MinnesotaStan and Vince himself to see if
                    > they
                    > > are both OK with Vince being given management edit powers (and
                    > > cordiality responsibilities) to be a second co-host here.
                    > Especially if
                    > > I ever get called to a remote area for a three week Red Cross
                    > disaster
                    > > assignment within the next several months. Anyone else here
                    > interested
                    > > in future co-hosting and feel a real kinship to this small group
                    > and
                    > > best intents here...please let Stan or myself know. I do think
                    > some
                    > > fine, unique intercommunications and research enhancements are
                    > possible
                    > > here, as members continue to get to know each other and
                    > personalize the
                    > > best of who they are and ideas/research they choose to share here.
                    > >
                    > > Nova Scotian Terry Deveau is filling in for John Coleman as host
                    > at the
                    > > NSExplore (Nova Scotia) group; he, Judi Rudebusch and I are
                    > > members...not sure if other AWS members are also. But the
                    > following
                    > > post unrelated to the subjects being discussed over there
                    > currently just
                    > > happened to turn up the following link. No one can know how long
                    > I have
                    > > been seeking a good Beaver Island (MI) web site...I'd searched for
                    > some
                    > > time. But had become acquainted long ago at World Explorers Club
                    > > conferences (David Hatcher Childress) in C. Illinois with a number
                    > of
                    > > Beaver Island residents, even had an invitiation to stay with the
                    > > librarian years ago. And have never been, lost the contact info.
                    > >
                    > > But besides the NSExplore person giving me a good site, consider
                    > the
                    > > possiblity the link and subject matter may not be too far removed
                    > from
                    > > the current discussion taht Terry is having difficulty getting
                    > even a
                    > > tad 'excited' about 'considering even the remotest possiblities
                    > of' , as
                    > > a scientist.
                    > >
                    > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NSExplore/message/9349
                    > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NSExplore/message/9349>
                    > >
                    > > I am trying to get four people who wrote about the link who are
                    > not AWS
                    > > members to join and post because I am not posting for people much
                    > any
                    > > more, and frankly am so busy I cannot keep up. yawn...heading for
                    > bed
                    > >
                    > > Thanks so much for keeping this site going.....Susan..... [bore]
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "minnesotastan"
                    > > <minnesotastan@> wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > I just ran across an item about a possible "Stonehenge" in I
                    > think
                    > > > Traverse Bay, Lake Michigan. The article, with some sonar
                    > images, was
                    > > > carried in the Bldgblog architecture blog this week. The data it
                    > is
                    > > > citing dates back to 2007.
                    > > >
                    > > > In the article they also discuss the recovery of possible
                    > petroglyphs
                    > > > from the bottom of the lake, with links to an NPR webcast and a
                    > > > Discovery Channel report.
                    > > >
                    > > > I don't know whether this "Stonehenge" is familiar to AWS
                    > members;
                    > > > perhaps it has already been discussed on this board, but I can't
                    > > > remember specifically.
                    > > >
                    > > > I've put photos of the sonar images and links to the original
                    > site and
                    > > > links about the petroglyphs in my blog -
                    > > >
                    > > > http://tywkiwdbi.blogspot.com/
                    > > >
                    > > > Please feel free to visit there and offer any comments. It's not
                    > an
                    > > > archaeology/prehistory blog, so the visitors there will probably
                    > not
                    > > > have any data to offer, or know of any developments since 2007
                    > on this
                    > > > find, but perhaps someone here will.
                    > > >
                    > > > Thanks in advance,
                    > > >
                    > > > Stan
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • judi_rudebusch
                    This Great, thanks Rick. ... accepted ... live ... off ... but ... update ... Their ... which ... check ... early ... program, I ... see if ... group ... think
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jan 10 6:11 PM
                      This Great, thanks Rick.



                      --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Rick Osmon"
                      <ozman@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Just to facilitate a clear understanding of the Traverse Bay site
                      > discovered by Dr. Mark Holley, I have invited him and he has
                      accepted
                      > my invitation to be on the Oopa Loopa Cafe. That segment will be
                      live
                      > beginning at 9 PM on 22 Jan.
                      >
                      > Mark indicated that there are a few areas of discussion that are
                      off
                      > limits due to an ongoing legal battle with the State of Michigan,
                      but
                      > that he will be happy to address any questions that don't tread on
                      > that law suit.
                      >
                      > Scott Wolter, who has also visited the Traverse Bay site, will also
                      > participate in that discussion and, separately, will provide an
                      update
                      > on his Newport Tower research.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "judi_rudebusch"
                      > <judij@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > HI Susan,
                      > >
                      > > The url site you noted: Beaver Island- who do I contact? The
                      > > picture pic'd my interest right off, thought there were holes
                      > > there... read farther and Yes. I would be interested in more
                      > > photos/ any contacts who have viewed them for their input.
                      Their
                      > > ideas on alignments are of interest.
                      > > Thanks,
                      > >
                      > > Judi
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
                      > > <beldingenglish@> wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Stan, Judi, Terry, and All,
                      > > >
                      > > > I am in the middle of a series of 12 hour nights out of town
                      which
                      > > > affords time for less sleep than usual. But I do like to
                      check
                      > > the AWS
                      > > > site to make sure there is no spam, etc. Since Vince is an
                      early
                      > > member
                      > > > here and not host/cohost of another web group or media
                      program, I
                      > > am
                      > > > going to check with host MinnesotaStan and Vince himself to
                      see if
                      > > they
                      > > > are both OK with Vince being given management edit powers (and
                      > > > cordiality responsibilities) to be a second co-host here.
                      > > Especially if
                      > > > I ever get called to a remote area for a three week Red Cross
                      > > disaster
                      > > > assignment within the next several months. Anyone else here
                      > > interested
                      > > > in future co-hosting and feel a real kinship to this small
                      group
                      > > and
                      > > > best intents here...please let Stan or myself know. I do
                      think
                      > > some
                      > > > fine, unique intercommunications and research enhancements
                      are
                      > > possible
                      > > > here, as members continue to get to know each other and
                      > > personalize the
                      > > > best of who they are and ideas/research they choose to share
                      here.
                      > > >
                      > > > Nova Scotian Terry Deveau is filling in for John Coleman as
                      host
                      > > at the
                      > > > NSExplore (Nova Scotia) group; he, Judi Rudebusch and I are
                      > > > members...not sure if other AWS members are also. But the
                      > > following
                      > > > post unrelated to the subjects being discussed over there
                      > > currently just
                      > > > happened to turn up the following link. No one can know how
                      long
                      > > I have
                      > > > been seeking a good Beaver Island (MI) web site...I'd searched
                      for
                      > > some
                      > > > time. But had become acquainted long ago at World Explorers
                      Club
                      > > > conferences (David Hatcher Childress) in C. Illinois with a
                      number
                      > > of
                      > > > Beaver Island residents, even had an invitiation to stay with
                      the
                      > > > librarian years ago. And have never been, lost the contact
                      info.
                      > > >
                      > > > But besides the NSExplore person giving me a good site,
                      consider
                      > > the
                      > > > possiblity the link and subject matter may not be too far
                      removed
                      > > from
                      > > > the current discussion taht Terry is having difficulty getting
                      > > even a
                      > > > tad 'excited' about 'considering even the remotest
                      possiblities
                      > > of' , as
                      > > > a scientist.
                      > > >
                      > > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NSExplore/message/9349
                      > > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NSExplore/message/9349>
                      > > >
                      > > > I am trying to get four people who wrote about the link who
                      are
                      > > not AWS
                      > > > members to join and post because I am not posting for people
                      much
                      > > any
                      > > > more, and frankly am so busy I cannot keep up. yawn...heading
                      for
                      > > bed
                      > > >
                      > > > Thanks so much for keeping this site going.....Susan.....
                      [bore]
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > --- In
                      ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "minnesotastan"
                      > > > <minnesotastan@> wrote:
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I just ran across an item about a possible "Stonehenge" in I
                      > > think
                      > > > > Traverse Bay, Lake Michigan. The article, with some sonar
                      > > images, was
                      > > > > carried in the Bldgblog architecture blog this week. The
                      data it
                      > > is
                      > > > > citing dates back to 2007.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > In the article they also discuss the recovery of possible
                      > > petroglyphs
                      > > > > from the bottom of the lake, with links to an NPR webcast
                      and a
                      > > > > Discovery Channel report.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I don't know whether this "Stonehenge" is familiar to AWS
                      > > members;
                      > > > > perhaps it has already been discussed on this board, but I
                      can't
                      > > > > remember specifically.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I've put photos of the sonar images and links to the
                      original
                      > > site and
                      > > > > links about the petroglyphs in my blog -
                      > > > >
                      > > > > http://tywkiwdbi.blogspot.com/
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Please feel free to visit there and offer any comments. It's
                      not
                      > > an
                      > > > > archaeology/prehistory blog, so the visitors there will
                      probably
                      > > not
                      > > > > have any data to offer, or know of any developments since
                      2007
                      > > on this
                      > > > > find, but perhaps someone here will.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Thanks in advance,
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Stan
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • Chris Patenaude
                      Greetings, ALL! Again a belated reply as i continue to try and catch up to the tail end of the discussion!! All this is SO fantastically exciting and
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jan 21 5:28 PM
                        Greetings, ALL!

                        Again a belated reply as i continue to try and catch up to the tail
                        end of the discussion!!

                        All this is SO fantastically exciting and interesting, it is hard to
                        find a place to wedge in all the questions my heart's itchin' to
                        about what might have been going on either at Traverse Bay or the
                        introduced Beaver Island topic, here.

                        Guess i'll just have to Keep Reading when i have the snippits of time!

                        That said, the one thing that distresses me is the comment that ANY
                        petroglyph or potentially portable inscribed item from the bottom of
                        the Lake be "recovered" and moved from its position!

                        In all my work, now, talking to others who work with petroglyphs in
                        all sorts of places on land or underwater, thre is the consistant,
                        abiding awareness of integration with ALL these artifacts and the
                        observation of the Heavens. I have yet to find a pictograph,
                        inscription or rock placement that did not reflect, in some way, the
                        position of the skybeings (stars, moon, planets, sun) at the time of
                        its making.

                        Indeed, it might be describing an event, a prayer, a victory or
                        disaster. But in all cases, the application of mark to Grandfather
                        Stone or EarthMother was a sacred act. There was no such thing
                        as 'secular' grafitti or stray comment. One did not go apply tattoos
                        or cut scarrification rites into or onto one's Grandfather or Mother
                        without a great deal of Reason, forethought and planning. Even the
                        acknowledgement of a nearby water hole (say a zigzag line and a
                        pointing arrow) was a benediction and thanks to the Great Mystery for
                        its existence.
                        [Those two symbols together in archaic script seen worldwide =
                        nayKHAY = 'to guide, to lead'][Think lightning bolt and Turkey Track
                        seen side by side. nayKHAY.]

                        And anytime a sacred gesture was accomplished, it was never without
                        conscious thought of what the sky was doing at the time. Many
                        indigenous languages don't even have a vocabulary word for the
                        passage of Time, and yet they were very observant of it in non-
                        linear, pictoral and interactive ways. Attention was paid to any
                        Gnomen-shadow-light action that played across the stone and the
                        careful placement of the image in observance and coordination of it.
                        Some holes were cut so that a wand, peg or rod could be inserted as a
                        gnomen to shadowmark the proper date for ritual at a given place.

                        Any petroglyph or inscription will have been carved with the annual
                        season in mind and its directional placement in accordance to the sky
                        positions of celestial bodies. More often than not, even if the
                        subject matter is to explain which direction the Tribe was forced to
                        retreat to in times of ecological stress, the message was placed so
                        that the Initiated could tell by skysign what time of year it was
                        that the migration happened.

                        If one removes an item, stone or inscription from its original
                        position, the whole meaning of the message may be lost forever. Any
                        pictograph or carving should first and foremost be GPS'd, now that we
                        have the tool, and carefully marked for directional orientation at
                        that spot. [not magnetic compass points, that has shifted in major
                        ways over the millenna.] Without the primal coordinates, one may
                        never find out what the author(s)were trying to express or what the
                        purpose of the whole location was.

                        So to read that any newly discovered petroglyphs might be wrenched
                        from their resting places underwater simply because there are marks
                        on them and it would be easier for us air-breathers to study it on
                        shore, it causes my stomach to ripple in deep anxiety that such
                        irresponsible archaeology should ever take place. By now we questors
                        should know better! But i shall not get on the so tempting soap box
                        now. Must keep chugging away at my stack of work while the Library is
                        still open! lol
                        Blessings on all projects, everyone!

                        -Chris P (Crispy)
                        (When my now adult daughter was 9yrs old, she gave me that nickname
                        and it stuck. She thot it quite funny that my name had the same
                        homonym as the neighborhood orange tabbycat.)

                        --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
                        <beldingenglish@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Stan, Judi, Terry, and All,
                        >
                        > I am in the middle of a series of 12 hour nights out of town which
                        > affords time for less sleep than usual. But I do like to check the
                        AWS
                        > site to make sure there is no spam, etc. Since Vince is an early
                        member
                        > here and not host/cohost of another web group or media program, I
                        am
                        > going to check with host MinnesotaStan and Vince himself to see if
                        they
                        > are both OK with Vince being given management edit powers (and
                        > cordiality responsibilities) to be a second co-host here.
                        Especially if
                        > I ever get called to a remote area for a three week Red Cross
                        disaster
                        > assignment within the next several months. Anyone else here
                        interested
                        > in future co-hosting and feel a real kinship to this small group and
                        > best intents here...please let Stan or myself know. I do think
                        some
                        > fine, unique intercommunications and research enhancements are
                        possible
                        > here, as members continue to get to know each other and personalize
                        the
                        > best of who they are and ideas/research they choose to share here.
                        >
                        > Nova Scotian Terry Deveau is filling in for John Coleman as host at
                        the
                        > NSExplore (Nova Scotia) group; he, Judi Rudebusch and I are
                        > members...not sure if other AWS members are also. But the following
                        > post unrelated to the subjects being discussed over there currently
                        just
                        > happened to turn up the following link. No one can know how long I
                        have
                        > been seeking a good Beaver Island (MI) web site...I'd searched for
                        some
                        > time. But had become acquainted long ago at World Explorers Club
                        > conferences (David Hatcher Childress) in C. Illinois with a number
                        of
                        > Beaver Island residents, even had an invitiation to stay with the
                        > librarian years ago. And have never been, lost the contact info.
                        >
                        > But besides the NSExplore person giving me a good site, consider the
                        > possiblity the link and subject matter may not be too far removed
                        from
                        > the current discussion taht Terry is having difficulty getting even
                        a
                        > tad 'excited' about 'considering even the remotest possiblities
                        of' , as
                        > a scientist.
                        >
                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NSExplore/message/9349
                        > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NSExplore/message/9349>
                        >
                        > I am trying to get four people who wrote about the link who are not
                        AWS
                        > members to join and post because I am not posting for people much
                        any
                        > more, and frankly am so busy I cannot keep up. yawn...heading for
                        bed
                        >
                        > Thanks so much for keeping this site going.....Susan..... [bore]
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "minnesotastan"
                        > <minnesotastan@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > I just ran across an item about a possible "Stonehenge" in I think
                        > > Traverse Bay, Lake Michigan. The article, with some sonar images,
                        was
                        > > carried in the Bldgblog architecture blog this week. The data it
                        is
                        > > citing dates back to 2007.
                        > >
                        > > In the article they also discuss the recovery of possible
                        petroglyphs
                        > > from the bottom of the lake, with links to an NPR webcast and a
                        > > Discovery Channel report.
                        > >
                        > > I don't know whether this "Stonehenge" is familiar to AWS members;
                        > > perhaps it has already been discussed on this board, but I can't
                        > > remember specifically.
                        > >
                        > > I've put photos of the sonar images and links to the original
                        site and
                        > > links about the petroglyphs in my blog -
                        > >
                        > > http://tywkiwdbi.blogspot.com/
                        > >
                        > > Please feel free to visit there and offer any comments. It's not
                        an
                        > > archaeology/prehistory blog, so the visitors there will probably
                        not
                        > > have any data to offer, or know of any developments since 2007 on
                        this
                        > > find, but perhaps someone here will.
                        > >
                        > > Thanks in advance,
                        > >
                        > > Stan
                        > >
                        >
                      • Ted Sojka
                        Stan, can you send me the link on these photos as it is in the archive but I don t know what you called it so I can t seem to find it at present. Thanks Ted
                        Message 11 of 13 , Apr 16, 2009
                          Stan, can you send me the link on these photos as it is in the archive but I don't know what you called it so I can't seem to find it at present.  Thanks Ted

                          On Jan 6, 2009, at 3:28 PM, minnesotastan wrote:

                          I just ran across an item about a possible "Stonehenge" in I think
                          Traverse Bay, Lake Michigan. The article, with some sonar images, was
                          carried in the Bldgblog architecture blog this week. The data it is
                          citing dates back to 2007.

                          In the article they also discuss the recovery of possible petroglyphs
                          from the bottom of the lake, with links to an NPR webcast and a
                          Discovery Channel report.

                          I don't know whether this "Stonehenge" is familiar to AWS members;
                          perhaps it has already been discussed on this board, but I can't
                          remember specifically.

                          I've put photos of the sonar images and links to the original site and
                          links about the petroglyphs in my blog -

                          http://tywkiwdbi. blogspot. com/

                          Please feel free to visit there and offer any comments. It's not an
                          archaeology/ prehistory blog, so the visitors there will probably not
                          have any data to offer, or know of any developments since 2007 on this
                          find, but perhaps someone here will.

                          Thanks in advance,

                          Stan


                        • minnesotastan
                          Ted Sojka wrote: Stan, can you send me the link on these photos as it is in the archive but I don t know what you called it so I can t seem to
                          Message 12 of 13 , Apr 18, 2009

                            Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...> wrote:

                            Stan, can you send me the link on these photos as it is in the archive but I don't know what you called it so I can't seem to find it at present. Thanks Ted


                            Ted, you're right, I should have sublinked rather than directing to the top of the blog, which makes navigation more difficult months later.  Here's the link to the specific post -

                            Underwater Stonehenge in Lake Michigan?

                            - and that post contains several links, one of which will be the one you need.

                            Stan
                          • Ted Sojka
                            Thanks, my wife showed me how to do a search on your blog and I found it. Hey, wanted to share with you today s news. The big day happened today after a 25
                            Message 13 of 13 , Apr 18, 2009
                              Thanks, my wife showed me how to do a search on your blog and I found it.


                              Hey, wanted to share with you today's news.



                              The big day happened today after a 25 year wait.  About 1983, retracing steps with Dr.  Clark Mallam's memory in my mind,  I stumbled on the mound group on the opposite terrace that we had searched many years ago.

                              A site, thought destroyed in 1974 by R Clark Mallam,  had a great day, being officially rediscovered.  The Voll Mound group on the property the locals call the OHara place, was revisited.

                              I realized it was still pretty much undisturbed and as surveyed by Orr in 1904..  After many attempts, it all came together this day.

                              The land owners, the state archeologist, the Ho Chunk archeologist ( a mound expert in Wisconsin), the Iowa Natural Heritage representative, all got together at the site.

                              We surveyed one of the last surviving groups of effigy style mounds on the Upper Iowa River and GPS the size and location for the landowner.  He had signed a permanent scenic easement to protect the ground from future destruction which stays with the deed.

                              He was given a lesson on proper maintenance of the property, a fraction of the river bottom farm that was saved from crops by the geography of the place.  I admired the owners who were there and in good spirits.

                              Feels good.

                              Home Run, bases loaded.

                              Wish the late archeologist friend was here to see it, or maybe he was there all along.

                              The Earth and the spirits won today and they don't often these days.    The native archeologist, a Seneca, showed us how the site was made visible from the river, so that you would notice it as you canoed by, even though the site was up on a terrace about 60 foot above the river.

                              He also showed us how the mound group was to be viewed.   By taking the 1904 map of the site and holding it overhead, he explained how this was a reverse of what is in the sky at night and that this religion that created these earthworks was based on the night and what was in the heavens.

                              Ted Sojka
                              On Apr 18, 2009, at 8:54 AM, minnesotastan wrote:




                              Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...> wrote:

                              Stan, can you send me the link on these photos as it is in the archive but I don't know what you called it so I can't seem to find it at present. Thanks Ted


                              Ted, you're right, I should have sublinked rather than directing to the top of the blog, which makes navigation more difficult months later.  Here's the link to the specific post - 

                              Underwater Stonehenge in Lake Michigan? 

                              - and that post contains several links, one of which will be the one you need.

                              Stan


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