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Re: from PreColumbain Inscriptions-Smithsonian Inscriptions from Illinois-Rock R

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  • Susan English
    Welcome to the group Jon, and Vince, Vince, I knew awhile back some of the fine work you were doing as a volunteer and preservationist at Cahokia. It is that
    Message 1 of 5 , Jan 27, 2007
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      Welcome to the group Jon, and Vince,

      Vince, I knew awhile back some of the fine work you were doing as a
      volunteer and preservationist at Cahokia. It is that center's loss,
      including researchers and visitors, that you will no longer be
      directly involved at that site. Reading your post, it is clear your
      research there, continues. I know little of Cahokia, was in awe of
      the work you are doing, look forward to learning more here and via
      PreColumbian Inscriptions posts where many of us at various web
      groups first became acquainted with each other.

      Because of courageous preservationist efforts and fine research, you
      would be a fine addition to the Ancient American Artifact
      Preservation Foundation. I scanned/emailed your fine list of tablets
      and disks to several people: Ancient American/May, Hoffman, Rydholm,
      AAAPF/Judy Johnson. I suggest also the idea of a 2008 or 2009 AAAPF
      conference near Cahokia with the assist of those already mentioned,
      included your name as possible speaker and/or conference displayer in
      lieu of your comprehensive experience with Cahokia and unique
      collection.

      Also hopoing the Ancient Earthworks Society's activities and inter-
      group activities will increase, that they will get involved with
      AAAPF and other groups for the 2007 AAAPF/Thor conference near Ft.
      Ancient, Ohio mounds (and suggested one at Cahokia). I am trying to
      fire up the Ancient Earthworks Society as to how much impact a group
      of that name and history can have in furthering the work so many of
      you are doing individually. President Tom Solberg remarked too how
      interrelated are ancient earthworks with ancient waterways, as are
      the founding ideas behind both societies, their members, and those
      who visit the meetings and web sites....

      Vince, it is good to see you included your list of tablets on message
      boards of many groups. Such posts not only interconnect specialty
      groups, but moreso, act as resource links which become as permanent
      as the sites to which they are linked. Thus, the more sites, the
      longer lasting. Mike White from PreColumbian Inscriptions (also, this
      site, the Thor group, Ancient Vikings, and many others)is probably
      unparalleled in keenness of insights, almost photographic recall of
      data, and dedication of hours devoted to the work. Even now from a
      remote area of China. The PreColumbIan Inscriptions and posts will be
      around as long as he is. And, many of us are continuously running
      prints of posts and lists all over the globe as I have been doing
      with Vince's list, the Ancient Vikings sight, all the sites mentioned
      earlier.

      The Ancient Waterways Society intends not to duplicate other sites.
      Please continue to post upcoming meetings, conferences which relate,
      such as the Ancient Earthworks Society meeting MinnesotaStan posted
      to this group long in advance. It provided time to help set up an
      afternoon field trip and gathering at the interesting home of AES
      prsident Tom Solberg. Many of us from northern and central areas of
      the Midwest attended the meeting on the UW Madison campus, earlier
      visited remnants of old Native manitou stones w/their corresponding
      directional alignments; the site continues to be further urbanized
      by condominius development. The integrity of the site was destroyed
      long ago by carriers of the narrower view of history, those who fail
      to give value to those who lived and traded within the ancient
      Americas.

      My personal interest is as an interconnector of people and resources
      in this work, and I partially do so by way of the Internet, emailing,
      and passing on parts of letters, links, full lists such as Vince's.
      Preference is traveling across ancient waterways to meetings, distant
      conferences, trying to expand the work of you with whom I am aligned,
      believing we can make a difference in actually taking advances in
      science and the humanities and APPLYING more correct visions of who
      we human beings are. One must first find universals and how closely
      we are or have been aligned--beyond borders--in the world.

      In that sense, I am a diffusionist without borders, prefer to
      travel distances along ancient waterways making interconnections. I
      find things work best when individuals and representatives of various
      groups can get personally elbow to elbow with each other at
      centralized areas of the continent at least one or more times a year.
      In settings as close to Nature as possible, keeping costs down for
      those of simple means, helping to get people and groups comfortably
      talking together, sharing good food around campfire or hearth. I also
      help spread word of related opportunities for people and groups to
      bring data together, work collaboratively in libraries and labs in
      furthering sound scientific research.

      I am honored to be acquainted already with what I beieve are hundreds
      of people contributing to a much needed renaissance of the sciences
      and arts. An exponential rise of an even greater science and
      application of that science across the globe.

      My applause to all of you researchers involved in this work..

      M. Susan English
      http://hometown.aol.com/suzenglish/myhomepage/profile.html

      --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Vince"
      v_barrows@...> wrote:

      Nice to hear from you. I am honored that you have shared my interest
      in these important artifacts with the Ancient Waterways Society
      group.
      I have been researching these interesting relics of the ancient
      inhabitants of this country for a long time and so far have found
      information about approximately 12,000 tablets. I am an enthusiast
      about this country's past, and recommend the recent 2004 publication
      about the Hohokam Tablets by Devin Alan White. The tablets numbered
      701 and 160 depict interesting legends that probably correlate with
      tribal legends.

      Also interesting is the Kassly-Schaefer tablet
      (see http://lithiccastinglab.com/gallery-
      pages/tabletssandstonebirdman.htm
      , which went on display on January 12, 2007 at the Cahokia Mounds
      Interpretive Center. Sadly, the pottery head that was found directly
      adjacent to the tablet and was obviously related to the find was
      dismissed by Site Management Bill Iseminger, who shamefully named
      the ancient artifact "Dr. Spock!" before rejecting the opportunity to
      display both pieces together, selecting only the tablet for display.
      http://lithiccastinglab.com/gallery-pages/clayheadkasslypage1.htm

      Seems that there are common inscriptions dealing with legends and
      stories inscribed into the stones. I am familiar with the groups
      that you spoke of, and also would like to get involved with their
      studies.

      I have been reseraching the symbolism on the stones. At least three
      stones have been found at Cahokia Mounds that are nearly identical
      to the one discussed here:
      http://www.nsf.gov/od/lpa/news/02/pr0202.htm

      Unfortunately, I am no longer a volunteer at Cahokia Mounds, because
      after writing a letter to the Belleville News Democrat about the
      damage to the mounds being caused by illegal ATV 4-wheeler usage, I
      found that Site Management abhorrently opposed my effort to write
      letters to inform the Illinois government politicians about the
      problem as being. I believe that the usage of ATV traffic on the
      mounds is unacceptable. Site management at Cahokia are not in favor
      of any possibility of volunteer patrolling the site, fund raising, or
      any other kind of preservation. It is disturbing to hear how quickly
      they disregard any effort to learn about the past of the country and
      dismiss anything as controversial that is not what they have been
      saying.

      Look forward to further discussion with you.
      Thanks and best regards;
      Vince Barrows
    • Susan English
      Vince, and all, I believe Wm. smith also mentioned this at another list, but I also don t see Michigan tablets/plates on the list. I was assisting at a Salt
      Message 2 of 5 , Jan 29, 2007
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        Vince, and all,

        I believe Wm. smith also mentioned this at another list, but I also
        don't see Michigan tablets/plates on the list. I was assisting at a
        Salt Lake City conference in the late 80's, early 90's when what
        remained of the tablets were moved from Michigan/Univ. of Michigan?
        to the SLC archives. Not sure if they are readily accessible to the
        public out there. As you know, articles on the Michigan tablets and
        Burrows Cave have been ongoing by dozens of authors via Ancient
        American and numerous magazines, and new information of a significant
        nature forthcoming...

        Also, many around the country own Burrows Cave items; increasingly,
        serious researchers are bringing parts of their collections to small
        group meetings and display tables at conferences such as AAAPF,
        Ancient Earthworks Society, Midwestern Epigraphic Society, etc. I
        sold a glass display cabinet to a professional with a considerable
        collection who has not yet attended AAAPF conferences nor made public
        any of his pieces, hopefully will attend the Ohio conference.

        Despite ongoing controversy and questionable scientific authenticity
        around all of the above, it only makes sense that artifacts and,
        especially scripted items be made public, photographed, investigated
        rather than destroyed, sent to obscure archives or lost to private
        collections, as has been the rule for millinnea of all that doesn't
        fit the current social, political, and religious paradigm. Continued
        evaluation over time, careful, collective research by
        professional and vocational groups such as these will bring that
        which is authentic and of priceless knowledge to light.

        Re: Burrows Cave, as I understand, a vast number of the rock art
        pieces photographed and professionally evaluated remains unpublished.
        Many of you have "Rock Art Pieces from Burrows' Cave, Volume I (of a
        Two-Volume Set) by Prof. James P. Scherz (UW Madison Dept of Civil &
        Envrionmental Engineering) & Russell E. Burrows was published in
        April, 1992, edited by Buck Trawicky. The front cover of the book
        parenthesizes a Book #2 in the continuing saga of Burrows' Cave. Buck
        and Jim Scherz attended the Ancient Earthworks meeting in the UW
        Science building two weeks ago in Madison. They, Mr. Burrows, and
        increasing others with whom I am affiliated, have expressed interest
        that the remaining photographs and data start being brought together
        into a Volume II. I believe that will happen in the very near future.
        I am starting to spark a few people in the direction of a 2008 or
        2009 S. Illinois conference near Cahokia and St. Louis with all of
        the current AAAPF groups involved, PreColumbian Inscriptions & Thor
        group, Pam G., Vince, Rick, Indiana, Kentucky, Hatcher-Childresses &
        World Exploeres Club, etc.

        Of course there will be a future one near the Burrows Cave site of
        great magnitude. Hopefully those most involved in it the past two+
        decades will still be around. All are at least in their 70's....

        For weeks last spring I was in New Orleans gutting homes, also
        walking miles door to door teaching dressing changes & simple medical
        procedures in areas still without electricity & water. I didn't get
        to Poverty Point, as I intende to do soon, but several kind-hearted
        researchers made calls of support to my cell phone at times I needed
        long breaks working with kids a third my age. Russell Burrows phoned
        the eve I departed and a number of times while in the field and I am
        happy to have a bit broader understanding of Cave subject, but
        enjoyed talking with him about other things related. John White, too,
        of Midwest Epigraphic Society, called inquiring about a small weekend
        gathering I was trying to put together for June in the Keweenaw
        Peninsula, also called. I'd gotten to know him at conferences and
        festivals around the country. Talks with Russell, John and many of
        you allowed lengthy breaks from the difficult work and opportunities
        to talk about these web groups, interrelated groups which meet
        directly, and my continuing efforts to try to interconnect diverse
        people and resources in rediscovering our ancient, global past.
        My apologies for such long conversations, but my intent is to
        interconnect us more directly, personally...

        Among discussions, I promised John White and his wife a
        continuance of a road tour Ohioan Pam Giese and I started with them
        to the end of Upper Michigan's Keweenaw Peninsula on Rte. 41/26
        several years ago. Maybe others are interested also; a caravan is
        possible and you don't have to camp.

        In more than one discussion, Russell, too, liked the idea of
        small, amicable camp discussions amongst open-hearted, hospitable
        researchers, fine campfire cooking (wild rice, venison sausage),
        etc. at sites anywhere between S. Illinois and the tip of the
        Keweenaw Peninsula. No pressure placed on anyone.

        I also continue to hear mumblings about a small group of writiers
        forming soon to continue with Volume #II. of the Burrows Cave Rock
        Art Pieces, I'd started reading Volume #1 last year when Russell
        corresponded with Mike White and PreColumbian Inscriptions members
        for a time. And in many discussions over coffee or assisting Dr.
        Scherz w/survey ancient sites throughout Wisconsin and Upper Michigan.

        In the grand scheme of things, regardless whether May and a team of
        scientists gain entrance to the cave (if not already doing so), open
        minds & hearts, future dating methods, the tests of time and careful
        scrutiny will present a larger picture and what things are of value...

        Re: the Beverly Stone mentioned earlier, I was unable to get into
        Mike White's link for that site, but the only one I know of by that
        name is the "Mystery Stone" at Beverly, Kansas, referenced w/photo
        via this web site: http://s8int.com/page20.html

        Susan
        --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Vincent Barrows
        <v_barrows@...> wrote:
        >
        > Please let me know if anyone has any tablets to add to this
        prelimiary
        > listing:
        >
        > Here is the list of all the tablets that I know of:
        > Inscribed Native Cahokia Mounds Tablets
        > 1. Birdman Tablet
        > 2. Kassly- Schaefer tablet
        > 3. Quincy Museum Tablet
        > 4. Ramey-Peet Tablet
        > 5. Perino Tablet
        > 6. Becker Tablet
        > 7. John Kelly Tablet
        > 8. Mary Mathews Fenaia Tablet
        > 9. Margie Erb Sandstone Tablet
        > 10. Moorehead
        > 11. Wilson
        > 12. Wendler
        > 13. White Sandstone Monks Mound
        > 14. 11-5-32 tablets ICT II tablet
        > 15. MSA-15A , 96-14-11
        > 16. MSA-15A , 93-4-1
        > 17.. MSA-15A , 93-4-2
        > Illinois Tablets
        > 18. Rockford Sun Tablet
        > 19. Rockford Inscribed
        > 20. Rockford Inscribed II
        > 21. Ellington Stone
        > Alaska Tablets
        > 22. Edward G. Fast Alsaka National Museum of Natural History Tablet
        > 23. 19_273 Alaska Baranof Island National Museum of Natural History
        > Tablet
        > Catlinite Tablets from Iowa/Minnesota
        > 24. County Museum Minnesota Tablet
        > Adena Tablets
        > 25.Allen Tablet
        > 26. Berlin Tablet
        > 27. Waverly/ Hurst
        > 28. Mm6 Wright Tablet
        > 29. Cincinnati
        > 30. Gaitskill Clay
        > 31. Gaitskill Stone
        > 32. Keifer
        > 33. Lakin A
        > 34. Lakin B
        > 35. Low 1
        > 36. Low 2
        > 37. Meigs County
        > 38. Wilmington
        > 39. Crawford County Ohio New Hampshire Peabody Museum
        >
        > Disks:
        > 40. Marshall Anderson Rattlesnake Disk
        > 70. Angel Mounds: Of 30 sandstone plates found, four have scoring on
        > one side and one has a groove
        > 92. Cresap Mound:, West Virginia 22 Tablets found, 1 turtle shaped
        and 1 shaped like a kidney
        > 93. Bat Creek, Eastern Tennessee
        > 190. Gault Site, Texas over 100 engraved stones from this site
        > 191. Graham Cave, MO inscribed tablet
        > 197. Grave Creek Mound – Six tablets including one concentric
        circle
        > tablet, 4 plumed serpent tablets, and one inscribed with letters
        > 209. Twelve Stiles Site, Iowa Tablets
        > 409. 200 plus Blood Run Site, Iowa Tablets
        > 416. Six incised limestone slabs from Middle Tennessee
        > 418. Piqua, Ohio Ketika Figurines (two)
        > 474. 56 Sailing Ship tablets from Florida
        > 736. 262 Hardaway and Doerchuk Site Tablets from North Carolina
        > 737. Solomonville, AZ Tablet
        > 937. 300 plus tablets described by Schuster and Carpenter in
        Patterns
        > That Connect: The social Symbolism of Tribal Art
        > 938. 13 CK 28 bastian Site Utz Tablet
        > 939. New Albin Tablet
        > 943. 4 Scott Couinty Iowa Tablets
        > 955 13 Easter island tablets
        > 2197. 1242 Hohokam Tablets (See Devin Alan White book)
        > 3327. 1130 Iberian Peninsula tablets (see
        > http://research2.its.uiowa.edu/iberian/
        > 4327. Blombos Cave, South Africa Engraved stones (over 1000?)
        > 11327. Southern Illinois "burrows cave" tablets, this will add
        around
        > 7000 to the total.
        >
        > Most archaeologists do not understand the find, therefore
        dismissing
        > it as a fraud. However, there is still so much to learn about the
        > past. To assume that we know everything about it is irresponsible.
        >
        > I think a defining trait of Cahokia Mounds is the "Beaded burial",
        > which was characterized by two burials, one facing up and the other
        > downward, Between the burials is a falcon-shaped cloak made from
        shell
        > beads. This mythical transcendent "Birdman" burial was found
        depicted
        > inscribed on tablets from as far away as ohio, west Virginia, and
        > possible the Easter islands.
        >
        > A very rare Native American artifact called the Kassly-Schaefer
        tablet
        > is now on permanent display at the Cahokia Mounds. This interesting
        > sandstone tablet is inscribed on both sides with symbols that
        > represent a very scarce remainder of those that were made by people
        > that lived in the civilization called the Cahokia Mounds. The
        symbols
        > were carved from sandstone at the location of the present day
        Cahokia
        > Mounds and probably are a record of tribal mythology. It had been
        left
        > at its place of discovery south of Old Valmeyer, IL for eons since
        it
        > was carried by an elite resident known as a "medicine-man" who may
        > have wiped off the dust that touched it for use as medicine. Such
        > tablets were reported as being carried in feather down pouches in
        the
        > Jesuit Chronicles such as shown in Codex Canadeinsis page 23,
        figure 34.
        >
        > The finder Elizabeth Agnes Kassly discovered the tablet in pieces
        on
        > November 15, 2000 and May 15, 2003 after the tablet had been
        broken,
        > either by the maker or hit by a plow.
        >
        > Icons include an ancestral lineage feather on the top of the front
        > side above a deeply engraved line that represents sea water.
        Overall
        > constellation placement resembles Aquarias, the water bearer,
        however,
        > seven inscribed points on the central figure resemble an asterism
        > grouping called "Ursa Major". The front right side shows a set of
        > four downward branching lines that represent the tops of red cedar
        > trees. Beneath this is the drawing of a human foot, reminiscent of
        the
        > Nanabozho story of the Lunar maiden that was kicked off the moon by
        > two other ladies that were jealous of her meticulous perfection and
        > beauty. Beneath this is a set of 12 fringelike lines, possibly
        > representing individual months or human forms. The right leg is
        drawn
        > with a sharpened appearance and may have connections to Blackfoot
        and
        > Natoas myths of the tornado called the "Sharpened leg". The reverse
        > crosshatched side bears resemblance to scales of a venomous
        Copperhead
        > snakeskin shedding diagonally from the halfway point toward the
        right.
        > This symbol is of maya, or veiled consciousness and each x
        represents
        > the arms and legs interlocking of all the ancestral founders.
        > Completing the important discovery was an ancient pottery head that
        > was made with an insect-like right eye, an upturned beak-like nose,
        > and an open mouth showing teeth. More can be seen about these
        objects
        > at the following web locations:
        >
        > http://lithiccastinglab.com/gallery-pages/clayheadkasslypage1.htm
        >
        > http://lithiccastinglab.com/gallery-pages/kasslytabletbirdlarge.htm
        >
        > http://lithiccastinglab.com/gallery-
        pages/tabletssandstonebirdman.htm
        >
        > The right eye probably represents the sun and the left missing eye
        > represents the moon. We will never know the exact meaning intended
        by
        > the ancient master, however, Native American Ojibwe mythology of
        > Nanabozho may represent a more recent record of parallel mythology.
        > The Ancient Finnish mythology shared such myths, and ancient latin
        > called Ogham is similar in appearance to the Red Cedar trees.
        > Doubtlessly, this tablet is filled with meaning and importance.
        >
        > Thanks
        > Vince Barrows
        >
        >
        > Vince <v_barrows@...> wrote: Nice
        to hear from you. I am honored that you have shared my interest
        > in these important artifacts with the Ancient Waterways Society
        group.
        > I have been researching these interesting relics of the ancient
        > inhabitants of this country for a long time and so far have found
        > information about approximately 12,000 tablets. I am an enthusiast
        > about this country's past, and recommend the recent 2004
        publication
        > about the Hohokam Tablets by Devin Alan White. The tablets numbered
        > 701 and 160 depict interesting legends that probably correlate
        with
        > tribal legends.
        >
        > Also interesting is the Kassly-Schaefer tablet (see
        > http://lithiccastinglab.com/gallery-
        pages/tabletssandstonebirdman.htm
        > , which went on display on January 12, 2007 at the Cahokia Mounds
        > Interpretive Center. Sadly, the pottery head that was found
        directly
        > adjacent to the tablet and was obviously related to the find was
        > dismissed by Site Management Bill Iseminger, who shamefully named
        the
        > ancient artifact "Dr. Spock!" before rejecting the opportunity to
        > display both pieces together, selecting only the tablet for
        display.
        > http://lithiccastinglab.com/gallery-pages/clayheadkasslypage1.htm
        >
        > Seems that there are common inscriptions dealing with legends and
        > stories inscribed into the stones. I am familiar with the groups
        that
        > you spoke of, and also would like to get involved with their
        studies.
        > I have been reseraching the symbolism on the stones. At least three
        > stones have been found at Cahokia Mounds that are nearly identical
        to
        > the one discussed here:
        http://www.nsf.gov/od/lpa/news/02/pr0202.htm
        >
        > Unfortunately, I am no longer a volunteer at Cahokia Mounds,
        because
        > after writing a letter to the Belleville News Democrat about the
        > damage to the mounds being caused by illegal ATV 4-wheeler usage, I
        > found that Site Management abhorrently opposed my effort to write
        > letters to inform the Illinois government politicians about the
        > problem as being. I believe that the usage of ATV traffic on the
        > mounds is unacceptable. Site management at Cahokia are not in
        favor of
        > any possibility of volunteer patrolling the site, fund raising, or
        any
        > other kind of preservation. It is disturbing to hear how quickly
        they
        > disregard any effort to learn about the past of the country and
        > dismiss anything as controversial that is not what they have been
        saying.
        >
        > Look forward to further discussion with you.
        > Thanks and best regards;
        > Vince Barrows
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
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