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Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Welcome Jim Scherz

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  • Pamela Giese
    Hi All, Welcome Jim! Good to have you on board! The geometry and measurement of things has always interested me. Since coming to the U.K. I ve begun studying
    Message 1 of 18 , Dec 9 11:48 AM

      Hi All,
       
      Welcome Jim!  Good to have you on board!
       
      The geometry and measurement of things has always interested me.  Since coming to the U.K. I've begun studying the work of Alexander Thom who surveyed a number of sites in England and Scotland.  Thom eventually derived a measure called the "Megalithic Yard", which he thought was at the basis for many of the Megalithic sites.  In common terms, this is 2.72 feet.
       
      Is there a full version of Jim's article online?  If not, I can probably get it from the MES editor.
       
      There's a lot of controversy about Thom's megalithic yard.  I've also been reading from authors who believe that the geometry of British megalithic sites are evidence of proto-Pythagorean knowledge.  I hope to do more investigating on this myself.  Fortunately my new husband rarely goes anywheres without his ranging rods ---see attached photo.
       
      Back to the states...another researcher who's done a lot of work on the unit of measure of the Hopewell and ancient Ohio people is William Romain.  If you're interested in this subject, I highly recommend his book:  "Mysteries of the Hopewell:  Astronomers, Geometers, and Magicians of the Eastern Woodlands".  Romain sees the similar unit of 1053 feet occuring across Hopewell sites.  This is very close to Jim's 1050 feet in the article's abstract  (that's why I thirst for more info).    Romain further reduces this measure to a "Hopewell" yard of 2.106 feet.  That's about 7.2 inches less than Thom's Megalithic yard.
       
      Cheers!
       
      Pam

    • Susan
      Pam, congratulations on your recent wedding. Last we saw, you were helping put on the Wilmington, Ohio conference, which was just prior to your move to
      Message 2 of 18 , Dec 9 10:24 PM

        Pam,  congratulations on your recent  wedding. Last we saw,   you were helping put on the Wilmington, Ohio conference, which was just prior to  your move to England. For newcomers  who have not  met Pam through web sites or conferences, I am inserting a photo so as to connect her thought-provoking response to the 'Old World Units...' link---- to a face. A happy one:

         http://www.questbooks.net/author.cfm?authornum=239

        What is the structure in the background?   I see you have published a book, too. Two from our group may be very interested.   Iwill order a signed copy myself to later have available as a loaner here.

        I just started reading  Crichton Miller's Celtic Cross... book which arrived Saturday.  His,yours, and David Brody's interweave beautifully  with the Templars and The Atlantic Conference,  and I am starting to feel as though I have stepped into an extended care Senior Moment in yonderand.  My children think I am making some of these things and all of you up.  And who wouldn't? On top of that, Scott Wolter's book will be coming out in February,  he told  Jim Scherz on the phone Friday evening  when Scott was returning from a speaking engagement in Ohio. Scott hasn't even  had a chance to view Atlantic Conference tapes or join the AWS group,  but plans on it---said he  had a great time at the gathering south of Copper Harbor last May.  He and friends did scuba diving during  daytime hours then the group came over to the fireplace lounge and Scott spoke  Friday and Saturday nights.

        Something else here from my mailbox, a  reply from Steve Steigerwald regarding the letter sent yesterday in behalf of this group about the missing Offering Stone.  He  has forwarded a copy to Jim Stevens but still needed to go through  members' web sites  I'd sent of  those I felt had direct ties/sympathies towarad the Offering Stone and/or Aztalan. A few of you  had emailed  sentiments following the initial post last July after the Stone was taken. The Aztalan group got hold of my web address trying  to connect to Dr. Scherz.

         I did not think about it until Pam wrote today that she had grown up somewhere close to Aztalan,  probably knows  a great deal about the site and  may have done  formal research.  l shall  include your name next reply to Seigerwald or Stevens.

        Steve  posted a picture of the artifact on their web site:  www.orgsites.com/wi/aztalan   Difficult to see an image, but   may be  more visible on the Pennington DVD.

        Susan

        --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Pamela Giese <pamela_giese2000@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Hi All,
        >
        > Welcome Jim! Good to have you on board!
        >
        > The geometry and measurement of things has always interested me. Since coming to the U.K. I've begun studying the work of Alexander Thom who surveyed a number of sites in England and Scotland. Thom eventually derived a measure called the "Megalithic Yard", which he thought was at the basis for many of the Megalithic sites. In common terms, this is 2.72 feet.
        >
        > Is there a full version of Jim's article online? If not, I can probably get it from the MES editor.
        >
        > There's a lot of controversy about Thom's megalithic yard. I've also been reading from authors who believe that the geometry of British megalithic sites are evidence of proto-Pythagorean knowledge. I hope to do more investigating on this myself. Fortunately my new husband rarely goes anywheres without his ranging rods ---see attached photo.
        >
        > Back to the states...another researcher who's done a lot of work on the unit of measure of the Hopewell and ancient Ohio people is William Romain. If you're interested in this subject, I highly recommend his book: "Mysteries of the Hopewell: Astronomers, Geometers, and Magicians of the Eastern Woodlands". Romain sees the similar unit of 1053 feet occuring across Hopewell sites. This is very close to Jim's 1050 feet in the article's abstract (that's why I thirst for more info). Romain further reduces this measure to a "Hopewell" yard of 2.106 feet. That's about 7.2 inches less than Thom's Megalithic yard.
        >
        > Cheers!
        >
        > Pam
        >

      • Susan
        All, I e-mailed Steve Steigerwald at Aztalan right after his first reply. If there are any within our group besides Pam and for sure Larry Johns who have
        Message 3 of 18 , Dec 10 5:25 PM
          All,
           
          I e-mailed Steve Steigerwald at Aztalan right after his first reply.  If there are any within our  group besides Pam and for sure Larry Johns who have close ties or feel deep interconnections with the efforts of those aligned with the site, Offeratory Stone, and 'Beaded Princes/Mystery Woman', please reply lo this site or my mailbox.  My old PC  needed resusitation paddles this AM it is so bogged down with downloads and emails,  or something.  A laptop my grown kids gave me for Christmas last year pirates WiFi from the pharmacist next door, sometimes goes poof and I lose everything.
           
          Until yesterday Pam has understandably been 'distracted' since the Ohio Conference since moving to the UK ---she is definely among those of us who helped start this web group.  Pam's post and  Larry joining AW occurred after the letter to Aztalan. 
           
          Before beginning two or three 12 hour graveyard nursing shifts this weekend in a rural Wis area, I will send one more email  to the Aztalan people. In it I  can include additional  names and web sites or any affiliations you tell me about which will further lend support to the Aztalan group's efforts, and homage to the descendents of the sacred lands and significant nearby intercontinental waterways: the Fox River near Green Bay & Tisch Mills, which was the main water route from Lake Michigan to the Gulf.  And it is noty far NE from the Rock River near the town of Lake Mills/Rock Lake/Aztalan.  And, remembering the four directions crossroads at Wausau on Brads sketch of sacred Midwestern  sites and riverways,
          the Wisconsin River widening from the north,  past my door to join together with other waterways of those of multiple states,  into the Mississippi River, the Gulf of Mexico to and from transcontinental ports beyond..  All significant  waterway tributaries used by ancient and early historic explorers. Of many cultures between the NE Atlantic, all the Great Lakes and through countless tributaries of the Mississippi River.
           
          Sounds rather like us here---global, intelligent peoples flowing together, deepening and broadening with the inflow of many people, groups, conferences, and especially ongoing Internet relationships here. It will be of interest to many to hear further  about ancient international water pathways from you living beyond North America.
           
          Here is this morning's post from Steigerwald: 
          ...No apologies for the length of the letter you sent are needed and what I meant to convey that it is impressive and shows much interest on your part. I thank you for that. There is a story & picture you may not have looked at on a old web page at www.cnd-scence.com/paztalan.html  [it doesn't] if this link does not work use the one on our website named "Mystery Woman of Aztalan" under the links section. Thanks for all you do.

          Steve Steigerwald
           (in reply to my letter):

          From: beldingenglish@...
          Subject: RE: Missing Aztalan OfferingStone F/U letter to Steigerwald & Stevens, Aztalan
          To: aztalan2008@...
          Dear Steve,
          My apologies for the length of the letter I sent you and Jim Stevens that would require taking up so much of your time!   I'd forgotten how many people within our small group of 41 have some kind of relationship with Aztalan and the Offering Stone.   I spoke with Jim Scherz last night from a survey he is working on in W. Wisconsin and will let him know it has not been found.
           
          Lee and Joy Pennington are good friends of Scherz and have the Offering Stone and Jim on their Moundbuilders DVD. I will play the film tonight to see if there is a better glimpse of it than the photo you posted. 
           
          Do you have another picture or drawing that I could post on several web groups such as Ancient Earthworks Society and AAPS (Ancient Artifact Preservation Society), which has hundreds on their mailing list, mostly Midwesterners.  Jim Scherz drew up the bylaws, was one of the main founders several years ago, as was I but am not as strongly affiliated there as I once was  The web site from their last annual conference held in October is:   http://www.aaapf.org/scripts/prodview.asp?idProduct=38
           
          Thank you. 
          M. Susan English
          _____________________________
           
           Steigerwald's Aztalan link in his first emai  is:
           http://www.orgsites.com/wi/aztalan/  The older link in the second letter doesn't work.  THE MYSTERY WOMAN OF AZTALAN link Steve suggested  is written  by a Linda Godfrey: 
           
           
          I've not read but heard about some of her  books on 'weird' Michigan, 'weird' Wisconsin, and  all sorts of underwater lake and sea creatures which, as a diver and snorkeler,  usually tried to avoid thinking about. Scarey enough having the "JawsTheme Song" riveting  my thoughts when diving off the Yucatan and Florida Keys.  But, that said,  I want to add a quickie offshoot here. I first began considering the possibilities of  'diffusionist inquiry' after having spent a turnabout year during the 80's  transporting a NE Atlantic MicMac tribal member named Hunts regularly to meet with  a UW anthropology professor.  Hunts had been sent to my home to install windows on the home here in Wisconsin,  and that is where he and I had started getting into in-depth conversations.  I was a single parent raising children, working part time, and a Social Science Major w/Peace Studies emphasis through a grant.  Hunts started telling me about strange  heiroglyphic type symbols and writings which he said his anestry in Canada had once known well.  I was unfamiliar with anything like this, had taken a couple of Anthro courses and recognized Middle Eastern (Hebrew, Greek, maybe Egyptian?) patterning.  Some of our mutual acquaintences from other tribal affiliations during group get-togethers, PowWows, etc. that we all attended thought what he was saying and his drawings not only odd, but downright crazy. As did everyone. 
           
          Being a soft touch and perceptive enough to see how important this work was to Hunts and difficult to convey to others in language and drawings. For whatever reasons, he had been unable to even relay very much of this knowledge to his family in Quebec, and I found out since from a cousin he had experienced the worse experiences imagineable growing up in the infamous Residential Schools. Sharing his ancient knowledge, it seems to me now, was what helped him rise above the horrors.
           
          Hunts could not drive, so I volunteered and transported him regularly to only one person willing to work with him, a UW Anthropology professor whom I will not name because he eventually was moved to another department (not Gunnar Thompson from Ancient American conferences in Utah,  and The Atlantic Conference. Similar situationi  happened to him at the UW, too). And Wisconsin was a liberal state back then, folks!
           
          I did not ask to sit in on the many  sessions they spent together, and when coming to pick up Hunts to return to Wausau, I caught only glimpses of the more enlarged inscriptions on posterboards.  A few years later when I got to know Wayne May, Jim Scherz , etc.,  and Hunts had moved away, they told me my Mi'kmaq friend/researcher was likely very much telling the truth in lieu of his heritage and very, very ancient intercontinental ties to aboriginal peoples in lands we now call 'Egypt', 'Israel', 'Greece', and later Templar ties, etc. 
            
          Soon afterward Pyramids of Rock Lake and Atlantis in Wisconsin came out and further opened me to diffusionist inquiry. 
          Guffawed at first over Frank Joseph's claims of underwater encounters with  eery,  foreboding  energies amidst the murky green water and elusive stone piles within Rock Lake. Which he later told me were absent if diving with no intention of exploitative gain or harm. I began believing some of these things later through others at two separate weekend events with groups of reverent, sensible researchers.  The first was at least fifteen years ago during a sacred ceremony on private property near Aztalan. The second at a sweat lodge with multi cultural peoples unknown to me but allowed me to participate along a quiet part of Rock Lake.  
           
          Necessary to say for me as a 'practical' nurse. mother. and member of an international Red Cross organization.....in regard to 'malovelant' forces,  monsters, animals, and especially people---my apologies to some of you here---I do not and cannot believe in "evil"...  nor look upon any man, woman, child I am caring for as such.  Anywhere.  As it is, it is enough to handle the power that comes from 'beholding Love' and seeing it everywhere. On a good day. 
           
           Experience and wise ones have shown  me the same holds true in reverse  when 'beholding' Evil.  Hence, best to avoid holding beliefs in frightening encounters,  writings of any source espousing  'evil', and paranoid 'conspiracy theory' writings within diffusionist inquiries. 
           
          But, too,  I do my best to neither invoke nor provoke fear-based people and wild animals. And I do not  discount  the possibility of 'spirits',  perhaps ancestry protecting sacred grounds  and waters.  I believe such to be 'benevolent' when we stay as such, and in so doing I've not met any since giving up wrestling. 
           
          Herb Wagner's web site alludes to such guardians.  Hopefully other  explorers besides myself keep such things in mind in relation  to artifacts such as the Offeratory Stone,  sacred sites, and the few remaining unexplored lands such as Herb's ancient underwater structure. Maybe the Offeratory Stone will become so burdomson as to inspire the one who possesses it to return it.  As the seasons turn in our societies, I am coming to believe that perhaps, too, new 'museums' and conferences best be simpler, less costly , reverend and partly 'in situ' within sacred lands.  Or placed in pubic settings which can be restored to sanity and their more heavenly states. 
           
          Emails from inquirers across the world came to me awhile back who happened into Herb's sites on a search. I've no doubt his mailbox has at times held more than he can handle in lieu of his books and and phenomenal photography on  various web sites. This in particular:
           
          Not far north of Green Bay from the 200 acre wooded sacred grounds near Tisch Mills mentioned earlier this week not far from Michigan is Oconto, WI,  a site Wagner tells about at his "Wisconsin's Ancient Copper Miners" web page:
           
          All of these ancient trade routes and copper culture areas within Wisconsin, MN, and Michigan may be found in writings and the 'never for-sale',  ethically obtained and documented  collections of David Johnson and his father;  multiple sites:    http://copperculture.homestead.com/ 
           
          I will look back to see if I included these two AWS members in my first letter to Aztalan.
           
          I don't recall any of you at AWS having  your Links with your Profiles, email letters, nor under your signatures when you Post or email.  So for out of town trips where I have to use hotel or library computers without access to files, I have had  to memorize 'buzz words" for Google purposes for as many as I can of you in order to quickly bring up your sites to relay to appropriate others. 
           
          For example, to access David's site I know to use the interconnected word "copperculture".  For Herb,  I  Google "at the creation" or  'ancient underwater road' . The Pennington's is a tough one and many are have difficulty because of multiple Lee Penningtons.  "joleproductions..." derived  from "Joy" and "Lee" and some said they attempted using JoLeeproductions or LeeJo, etc.  Now I know 'our Lee' Pennington come up second on the list after Googling his name,  but one knows that only if  aware that he is a Kentucky Poet Laureate. 
           
          Googling "Atlantic Conference" gives us the Atlantic Charter or a photo of Winston Churchill and FDR.  One of the teachers I subbed with from the Wausau School district until last June heard me say I woulbe be attending that conference, looked it up and passed to other coworkers one of the other affiliations. The Search line needs to read "Atlantic Conference Halifax (or NS)"
           
          We who get to know each other  through our many affiliations have learned more details about each other in order to click into these excellent public web sites. Newcomers and browsers looking for a place to hang their hats don't. Perhaps this  is good for those with time constraints and don't have time to answer personal emails.  I feel OK telling people here when I don't have time to intercommunicate, and I am OK when hearing it from you.  The beauty about a good group is that others tend to fill in the gaps of each others' time constraints and shortcomings.  And no one gets depleted, nor too powerful at the expense of others. .
           
          It is my privilege to  have groups such as this to convey general knowledge and a few personal thoughts to many friends.  Groupwork needn't be impersonal and generic,  as communication devices such as holiday newsletters tend to be.  With many weaving in and out with posts, articles, web sites, and good perception and intercommunications skills,  I think not. This is our group site and we can put in and take out whatever each of you chooses.  I will quiet down pretty soon, was even tongue tied  last night and this AM from some very  moving personal letters I have not been able to respond to yet in connection with this group.
           
          You all are really something here and may not know it yet ,  slowly bringing in experiences and insights from your experiences and ongoing work with others. I believe what makes this special is the humility, non-competitiveness, non-arrogance, and...just thinking about it here a nice yin-yang balance of cultures, genders, extremely diverse backgrounds I've noted here that I don't see much in other groups. 
           
          The excessive  length and number of my own posts here is temporary and will ease again soon. We have doubled our membership in the last several months, and  forty or fifty seems a good number to keep from getting impersonal.  Since the onset of the group, MinnesotaStan and I have deleted a long list of spammers who joined or tried to join, and removal takes off their 'count'.
           
          The work each of you here, and your walking the walk of your  intentions are extremely important and and sacred, to me.  I haven't seen  indication that any of it is a frivolous 'armchair' hobby providing sport for bored, overindulgent people and retirees. Nor is it mere intellectualizing and piling up  unending  mountains of data into archives,  ad infinitum. And for those that
          have been to take the time and resources to do so, it takes considerable courage and committment to make public the wonderfully professional web sites,  intelligent 'blogs', and media organizations that have your names attached to, thus can navigate toward the destinations which you envision,  freely.....
           
          My apologies for not having a web site of my own, and   When growing up, my family moved at least twenty times before I was out of school   It was a fun, interesting life but the moving did not do much for learning or forming close ties.
           
          My deepest thanks to each here  for having joined "us" here. Even if I don't know you personally here  yet, I know you to be courageous, dedicated, highly intelligent men and women sharing your work and revealing who you really are with each other.  At Ancient Waterways Society and and through the Atlantic Conference,  you are becoming the dearest,  most enjoyable friends this 'groupie' ever had.  Far more fun, even, than growing up around an Alpine ski resort!
          Susan
           
          The human mind is designed to be empowerd by age rather than enfeebled by it (an English proverb)
          -----Suggested  as a Step One for your own no-dues, no-fees branch of Future Wise Elders of America (or New Zealand, Norway, England, etc)   
           
           

          --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan" <beldingenglish@...> wrote:
          > Pam, congratulations on your recent wedding. Last we saw, you were
          > helping put on the Wilmington, Ohio conference, which was just prior to
          > your move to England. For newcomers who have not met Pam through web
          > sites or conferences, I am inserting a photo so as to connect her
          > thought-provoking response to the 'Old World Units...' link---- to a
          > face. A happy one:
          >
          > http://www.questbooks.net/author.cfm?authornum=239
          > <http://www.questbooks.net/author.cfm?authornum=239>
          >
          > What is the structure in the background? I see you have published a
          > book, too. Two from our group may be very interested. Iwill order a
          > signed copy myself to later have available as a loaner here.
          >
          > I just started reading Crichton Miller's Celtic Cross... book which
          > arrived Saturday. His,yours, and David Brody's interweave beautifully
          > with the Templars and The Atlantic Conference, and I am starting to
          > feel as though I have stepped into an extended care Senior Moment in
          > yonderand. My children think I am making some of these things and all
          > of you up. And who wouldn't? On top of that, Scott Wolter's book will
          > be coming out in February, he told Jim Scherz on the phone Friday
          > evening when Scott was returning from a speaking engagement in Ohio.
          > Scott hasn't even had a chance to view Atlantic Conference tapes or
          > join the AWS group, but plans on it---said he had a great time at the
          > gathering south of Copper Harbor last May. He and friends did scuba
          > diving during daytime hours then the group came over to the fireplace
          > lounge and Scott spoke Friday and Saturday nights.
          >
          > Something else here from my mailbox, a reply from Steve Steigerwald
          > regarding the letter sent yesterday in behalf of this group about the
          > missing Offering Stone. He has forwarded a copy to Jim Stevens but
          > still needed to go through members' web sites I'd sent of those I
          > felt had direct ties/sympathies towarad the Offering Stone and/or
          > Aztalan. A few of you had emailed sentiments following the initial
          > post last July after the Stone was taken. The Aztalan group got hold of
          > my web address trying to connect to Dr. Scherz.
          >
          > I did not think about it until Pam wrote today that she had grown up
          > somewhere close to Aztalan, probably knows a great deal about the site
          > and may have done formal research. l shall include your name next
          > reply to Seigerwald or Stevens.
          >
          > Steve posted a picture of the artifact on their web site:
          > www.orgsites.com/wi/aztalan <http://www.orgsites.com/wi/aztalan>
          > Difficult to see an image, but may be more visible on the Pennington
          > DVD.
          >
          > Susan
          > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Pamela Giese
          > pamela_giese2000@ wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > Hi All,
          > >
          > > Welcome Jim! Good to have you on board!
          > >
          > > The geometry and measurement of things has always interested me. Since
          > coming to the U.K. I've begun studying the work of Alexander Thom who
          > surveyed a number of sites in England and Scotland. Thom eventually
          > derived a measure called the "Megalithic Yard", which he thought was at
          > the basis for many of the Megalithic sites. In common terms, this is
          > 2.72 feet.
          > >
          > > Is there a full version of Jim's article online? If not, I can
          > probably get it from the MES editor.
          > >
          > > There's a lot of controversy about Thom's megalithic yard. I've also
          > been reading from authors who believe that the geometry of British
          > megalithic sites are evidence of proto-Pythagorean knowledge. I hope to
          > do more investigating on this myself. Fortunately my new husband rarely
          > goes anywheres without his ranging rods ---see attached photo.
          > >
          > > Back to the states...another researcher who's done a lot of work on
          > the unit of measure of the Hopewell and ancient Ohio people is William
          > Romain. If you're interested in this subject, I highly recommend his
          > book: "Mysteries of the Hopewell: Astronomers, Geometers, and Magicians
          > of the Eastern Woodlands". Romain sees the similar unit of 1053 feet
          > occuring across Hopewell sites. This is very close to Jim's 1050 feet in
          > the article's abstract (that's why I thirst for more info). Romain
          > further reduces this measure to a "Hopewell" yard of 2.106 feet. That's
          > about 7.2 inches less than Thom's Megalithic yard.
          > >
          > > Cheers!
          > >
          > > Pam
          > >
          >
        • Susan
          Reply from Jim Scherz (who is having computer Cookies problem & cannot open AWS site) Saturday, January 3, 2009 12:00 AM From: james scherz
          Message 4 of 18 , Jan 3, 2009
            Reply from Jim Scherz (who is having computer Cookies problem & cannot open AWS site)
             
            Saturday, January 3, 2009 12:00 AM
            From: "james scherz" jpscherz@...
            To: "Susan English" beldingenglish@...
             
            Hi,  I am indeed familiar with Thom and the Megalithic Yard.  His work inspired some of our first research into the geometry of the Indian mounds.  From compiling the length of the pace of hundreds of students, I can say that Thom's Yard corresponds to the average pace of a tall person, about 6 ft.  As such, it would have indeed been a convenient standard distance for ancient metrology.  But I have not found the Megalithic Yard in this country.  Instead, we find the geographic foot of about 1.01 of our feet, derived from a minute of latitude arc on the surface of the earth. This distance varies by about 1 % between the earth's equator and the poles.  The average value of a minute of latitude arc is still known as the nautical mile (6076 ft.).  The term mile (from mil) means 1000.  This means there are 1000 units of 6.076 ft in a nautical mile.  This is the ancient fathom, still used by sailors. 

                Each land (Egypt, Greece, Troy, etc.) measured the length of the minute of arc and derived their standard units of the foot.  But it was found that these varied from land to land.  And the units of volume and standard weights (weight of water in a given volume) also varied from land to land.  Therefore there were different ounces used for precious metals, such as gold.  The Troy ounce is still a standard in London banking houses, even though Troy fell long, long ago.  Although the written records probably went up in smoke when a fanatical Christian mob burned the library of Alexandria in about AD 400, we know that somewhere along the way the traders of precious metals standardized the foot to the statute (legal) foot .  This is the foot that we still use.   This is used to create the statute mile, the acre, and the chain of 66 ft.  (The acre is 10 square chains).  We find both the local geographic units (the geographic stade of about 606 ft.) as well as units of the statute foot (100 ft and 66 ft. etc.)  in the layout of ancient sacred sites in North America.

                 Yes, I am familiar with the research in Ohio.  We have done some ourselves.  The local geographic stade (1/10 of a minute of latitude arc) is indeed found in the Octagon Mound in Newark Ohio.  And our measurements are accurate to the nearest foot, so I can say that.  We also confirm the diameter of the small circle at the Octagon mound at about 1050 ft.  But here, the mound is very wide and our uncertainty is a couple of feet (maybe as much as 5 feet).  So we would say the diameter is 1050 + or - a few feet.  The geographical stade is 1/10 of the local nautical mile.  And it would follow that a statute stade would be 1/10 of a statude mile or 1/10 x 5280 ft.  This is 528 ft.  Note for a circle that has a diameter of 1050 ft + or - a few feet, that the radius would be 1050 / 2 or 525 + or - a few feet.  This might be a reason.  Or it might not.  We need to sift and winnow this a bit more.

                  The best reference to ancient metrology that I have found is by Prof. Stecchini in an appendix to Tompkin's book on the Great Pyramid. 


            Jim Scherz

            From: Susan English <beldingenglish@...>
            To: james scherz <jpscherz@...>
            Sent: Friday, January 2, 2009 8:20:33 AM
            Subject: Re: comment for pam giese from England who grew up near Aztalan?

            --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Pamela Giese <pamela_giese2000@...> wrote:
             
            Hi All,
             
            Welcome Jim! Good to have you on board!
             The geometry and measurement of things has always interested me. Since coming to the U.K. I've begun studying the work of Alexander Thom who surveyed a number of sites in England and Scotland. Thom eventually derived a measure called the "Megalithic Yard", which he thought was at the basis for many of the Megalithic sites. In common terms, this is 2.72 feet.
             
            Is there a full version of Jim's article online? If not, I can probably get it from the MES editor.
             There's a lot of controversy about Thom's megalithic yard. I've also been reading from authors who believe that the geometry of British megalithic sites are evidence of proto-Pythagorean knowledge. I hope to do more investigating on this myself. Fortunately my new husband rarely goes anywheres without his ranging rods ---see attached photo.
             
            Back to the states...another researcher who's done a lot of work on the unit of measure of the Hopewell and ancient Ohio people is William Romain. If you're interested in this subject, I highly recommend his book: "Mysteries of the Hopewell: Astronomers, Geometers, and Magicians of the Eastern Woodlands". Romain sees the similar unit of 1053 feet occuring across Hopewell sites. This is very close to Jim's 1050 feet in the article's abstract (that's why I thirst for more info). Romain further reduces this measure to a "Hopewell" yard of 2.106 feet. That's about 7.2 inches less than Thom's Megalithic yard.

            Cheers!
            Pam

            This article appeared in the Volume 16, Number 1, 2002 issue of the Midwestern Epigraphic Journal.:

            Old World Units of Measure
            Found in the Layout Geometry of Prehistoric Earthworks at Newark, Ohio, 
             By Dr James P Scherz

            http://www.midwesternepigraphic.org/scherz.html


            From: Susan English <beldingenglish@...>
            To: Jim Scherz <jpscherz@...>
            Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 5:06:42 PM
            Subject: comment for pam giese from England who grew up at Aztalan

            Jim,
            Do you have a comment at Ancient Waterways for Pam Giese, in this post?
            http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ancient_waterways_society/message/745
            Midwestern Epigraphic Society A non-profit tax exempt organization [501.C(3)] under IRS Regulations
               Home  |   Officers  |   Membership  |  Library  |   Schedule  |   Trips  |   Inscriptions  |   Meetings  |   Archives  |   Shop

            Old World Units of Measure
            Found in the Layout Geometry of Prehistoric Earthworks at Newark, Ohio

            By Dr James P Scherz

            About James P Scherz
            [This article appeared in the Volume 16, Number 1, 2002 issue of the Midwestern Epigraphic Journal.]

            Overview:
            A careful survey of the earthworks at Newark Ohio has revealed not only a solution to the ancient Old World geometrical riddle of "Squaring the Circle" by use of rope geometry (associated with legends of the Great Pyramid of Egypt), but also three different units of measure, which were also used together in ancient Egypt (and other lands influenced by that region).

            These three units of measure include (1) the common foot, which is derived from the old English foot. Its ancient predecessor was preserved in various lands of the Old World until the adoption of the metric system after the early 1800's. Prof. Stecchini (from M.I.T.), who with a lifetime passion studied ancient metrology, says that same foot that we use today was found in the ancient metrology of Mesopotamia in the third millennium B.C. It also was used in Egypt for the times of the earliest written records. In this paper, I refer to this value of the foot as the "statute foot", since it is the foot used to create the statute mile (5280 ft.) and other land survey units such as the chain and the furlong, which are still very much part of the land survey metrology used in the United States.

            Another value of the foot that shows up in Newark is what Prof. Stecchini calls (2) the "geographic foot". It is related to the length of a minute of arc at a latitude which corresponds to that found in lands such as northern Egypt. By definition, there are 6000 geographic feet in a nautical mile (one minute of latitude arc on the surface of the earth). 1/10 of a nautical mile is an ancient land measure called the "geographic stade"--600 geographic feet, or 606 (600 + 6) of our common feet.
            The third unit of measure or type of foot that show up at Newark is the value that Prof. Stecchini calls (3) the " royal foot". It is related to the more commonly known "royal cubit", which is the length of the long diagonal of a cube, the sides of which are the royal foot. It is 1 % shorter that the common ft (600 common ft = 600-6 royal ft.)

            In the Egyptian records, the term "cubit" refers to both the ratio of the long diagonal of a cube to its side (square root of 3 = 1.73205...), and to the ratio of 3/2 (1.5). To avoid confusion, in this paper I will refer to the ratio of 3/2 as the "musical cubit" since the ratio of 3/2 is properly related to the "fifth" in music, the most pleasing tone within an octave. The ratio 3/2 has nothing to do physically with the geometry of a true cube.

            But it does have much to do with how one uses the cube to translate between these three different values of the foot. An in the process, one can also square the circle (create a square with an area equal to a given circle), using only the harmony of the three sinultaneously versions of the foot (to rope surveying accuracy). These various feet were used in northern Africa from the Middle Kington of Egypt to the Roman conquest, when the Roman foot became the standard of land measure.

            Prof. Stecchini says that the Greek rulers of Egypt, known as the Ptolemies, took over and preserved the ancient units of measure from their Egyptian predecessors, but never really understood the full harmony of the ancient units.

            By the time the Ptolemies were defeated by the Romans, the practicing knowledge of the ancient land measures had fallen into disuse. (This knowledge had probably bee secrets of the guilds of temple priests since earliest of times.) When the old Roman Empire fell to the Christians in about 350 AD, the knowledge of the ancient harmonies of the land measures essentially disappeared entirely or was forced underground by the persecution of pre-Christian religion and teachings--a persecution that continued until the times of Copernicus, Bruno, and Professor Galileo in about year 1600 or our Christian calendar.

            After Christians came to political power in about 350 AD, schools and temples run by non-Christians (and some Christians, as well, who did not believe as they should) were attacked and closed. Sacred symbols of various religious competitors were incorporated into the Christian dogma of the devil( from "diva", the name of sacred creator gods from India). A ceremonial number (666) of the Mithraians, their chief religious competitor, was taken as the number of the beast (or devil) who also appeared as the 7-headed snake with horns (the sacred Naga symbol of the East, used to decorate statues of Buddha and Hindu heros). At that time, they also tore Lucifer (the name for the planet Venus) from the skies and sentenced him to live forever in hell with these other creatures and symbols, which must have appeared very strange and frightening to the illiterate minds of the repressed masses of those days.

            Yet the ancient land measures survived the religious upheavals and witch hunts of the Dark and Medieval ages. For example, the ancient number of the calendar of the sun (666 of the Mithraians) is preserved in our statute mile yet today. There are 666 royal feet in a furlong of 660 statute feet ( 1/8 of a statute mile). Of course, for survival purposes those who knew of such things would have kept quiet or would have risked being killed as a witch.

            The presence of the ancient land measures in the geometry of the Indian mounds of our land suggests that the high ancient knowledge of geometry that once was practiced in the pre-Christian Old World was also known by the high priests of the New World who oversaw the layout of impressive earthworks, such as those at Newark, Ohio. The Newark earthworks are thought to have been built by the so-called "Hopewell Indians" who had a high culture with giant ceremonial sites throughout Ohio (and some of the neighboring states) from about 400 BC to AD 400. This is a period that spanned the rise and fall of the Ptolemy rulers of Egypt, and ends about the time that Christians came to political dominance in what was left of the old Roman Empire.

            Symbolically, one of the most notable acts of dominance of the new Christian rule in the Roman Empire was the burning of the Library of Alexandria. Set up by the various rulers of the Ptolemy dynasty, this library was still very much honored by the educated Greeks and Romans and other peoples of the Old World until its Destruction.

            The Ptolemy dynasty had been started by Alexander the Great in about 300 BC. It fell when the Romans conquered Egypt about the time of Christ. The Ptolemies were great patrons of ancient knowledge, credited with collecting the material for the Library of Alexandria
            The revered library was burned by a Christian mob, led by a local bishop, in about 391 AD. An educated woman (named Hypatia) addressed the mob, trying to dissuade them from their plan of destruction. They flayed her alive with clam shells and set fire to the ancient records and the temple to one of the planets, in which the knowledge of the ancient was stored. Great was the fury of the mob and their leaders against the institutions of the old order. And furious was their propaganda and their attacks against religious competitors who might stand in the way of their political dominance over the land and minds of its inhabitants.

            What was once contained in the great collection of ancient knowledge of the world at the Library of Alexandria? We will never know. It went up in smoke. But the ancient harmonies of how the circle of heaven and the land were divided, and how the notes of the musical scales were created to be in harmony with the heaven and earth are with us still. They have survived, along with the angles and distances in certain ancient ceremonial structures, such as the Great Pyramid of Giza, Egypt, and the great Geometrical earthworks in Ohio, the best being the Great Circle and the Octagon Comples at Newark, Ohio

            This paper is version one of two versions. This is the short version. The longer version also incudes further analysis of the ancient harmonies associated with the statute foot, the royal foot, the geographic foot, and the dimensions of the earth. It also includes detailed survey data from the Newark earthworks.

            Full copies of the short version can be made available to interested parties upon request. Copies of the longer version will also be available upon request, once the first draft has been converted to final form.

            Acknowledgements:
                  To the officers and members of The Ancient Earthworks Society, and other dedicated volunteers who have helped survey and study the Indian Mounds of Wisconsin. To the late Jan Beaver, to Larry Johns and to Buck Trawicky who have also surveyed or helped survey ancient earthworks in both Wisconsin and Ohio. Special Acknowledgements are in order to Buck Trawicky for his meticulous field work as rodman on our surveys of the Newark Earthworks, which produced the accuracy needed to see the interplay between the units of 600 + 6 and 600 - 6 ft, (as well as the units of 700 +1.5) of our common or statute foot.

            To Bob Johnson, of Masonic background and one of the founders of The Ancient Earthworks Society, who upon seeing the geometry unfolding from our surveys of the Indian Mounds, implored us to try to figure out the solution to the ancient riddle of squaring the circle with a rope or compass and straight edge.

            To our Native American friends who helped us in our surveying and mapping efforts and our efforts to understand and preserve the ancient Effigy Mounds of Wisconsin--especially Pamita, who met us at the Lizard Mound Site. After introducing himself, he said that old Pauees had been his teacher and instructed him to tell people (who wanted to understand and preserve the mounds) some of the history he thought was appropriate to tell.

            To James Marshall of Schaumburg, Illinois, to Bradley Lepper and Shar Hunter of Newark, Ohio, and to the late Jan Beaver, whose grandmother was born in Chillicothe, special acknowledgements and special thanks for their particular help and inspiration.

             
            __________________________________________________________
             

             
            --- On Thu, 1/1/09, james scherz <jpscherz@...> wrote:

            From: james scherz <jpscherz@...>
            Subject: Re: comment for pam giese from England who grew up at Aztalan
            To: beldingenglish@...
            Date: Thursday, January 1, 2009, 11:34 PM

            Susan,  I cannot get into the site.  For some reason my machine will not accept the cookies and I do not know how to make the correct changes.  Will talk to you when I'm in Wausau again.


            J. P. Scherz
          • Vincent Barrows
            http://www.scribd.com/doc/9667903/Ketip-Sacred-Rock-in-Alberta-Moon-Morning-Star-and-Blood-Sacrifice-by-Gordon-R-Freeman Here is the link to an article on
            Message 5 of 18 , Jan 4, 2009
              http://www.scribd.com/doc/9667903/Ketip-Sacred-Rock-in-Alberta-Moon-Morning-Star-and-Blood-Sacrifice-by-Gordon-R-Freeman

              Here is the link to an article on glyph stones


              --- On Sat, 1/3/09, Susan <beldingenglish@...> wrote:

              From: Susan <beldingenglish@...>
              Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] JP Scherz' reply-Pam's post re: Thom, Megalithic Yd, Old World Measures
              To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Saturday, January 3, 2009, 8:56 AM

              Reply from Jim Scherz (who is having computer Cookies problem & cannot open AWS site)
               
              Saturday, January 3, 2009 12:00 AM
              From: "james scherz" jpscherz@yahoo. com
              To: "Susan English" beldingenglish@ yahoo.com
               
              Hi,  I am indeed familiar with Thom and the Megalithic Yard.  His work inspired some of our first research into the geometry of the Indian mounds.  From compiling the length of the pace of hundreds of students, I can say that Thom's Yard corresponds to the average pace of a tall person, about 6 ft.  As such, it would have indeed been a convenient standard distance for ancient metrology.  But I have not found the Megalithic Yard in this country.  Instead, we find the geographic foot of about 1.01 of our feet, derived from a minute of latitude arc on the surface of the earth. This distance varies by about 1 % between the earth's equator and the poles.  The average value of a minute of latitude arc is still known as the nautical mile (6076 ft.).  The term mile (from mil) means 1000.  This means there are 1000 units of 6.076 ft in a nautical mile.  This is the ancient fathom, still used by sailors. 

                  Each land (Egypt, Greece, Troy, etc.) measured the length of the minute of arc and derived their standard units of the foot.  But it was found that these varied from land to land.  And the units of volume and standard weights (weight of water in a given volume) also varied from land to land.  Therefore there were different ounces used for precious metals, such as gold.  The Troy ounce is still a standard in London banking houses, even though Troy fell long, long ago.  Although the written records probably went up in smoke when a fanatical Christian mob burned the library of Alexandria in about AD 400, we know that somewhere along the way the traders of precious metals standardized the foot to the statute (legal) foot .  This is the foot that we still use.   This is used to create the statute mile, the acre, and the chain of 66 ft.  (The acre is 10 square chains).  We find both the local geographic units (the geographic stade of about 606 ft.) as well as units of the statute foot (100 ft and 66 ft. etc.)  in the layout of ancient sacred sites in North America.

                   Yes, I am familiar with the research in Ohio.  We have done some ourselves.  The local geographic stade (1/10 of a minute of latitude arc) is indeed found in the Octagon Mound in Newark Ohio.  And our measurements are accurate to the nearest foot, so I can say that.  We also confirm the diameter of the small circle at the Octagon mound at about 1050 ft.  But here, the mound is very wide and our uncertainty is a couple of feet (maybe as much as 5 feet).  So we would say the diameter is 1050 + or - a few feet.  The geographical stade is 1/10 of the local nautical mile.  And it would follow that a statute stade would be 1/10 of a statude mile or 1/10 x 5280 ft.  This is 528 ft.  Note for a circle that has a diameter of 1050 ft + or - a few feet, that the radius would be 1050 / 2 or 525 + or - a few feet.  This might be a reason.  Or it might not.  We need to sift and winnow this a bit more.

                    The best reference to ancient metrology that I have found is by Prof. Stecchini in an appendix to Tompkin's book on the Great Pyramid. 


              Jim Scherz

              From: Susan English <beldingenglish@ yahoo.com>
              To: james scherz <jpscherz@yahoo. com>
              Sent: Friday, January 2, 2009 8:20:33 AM
              Subject: Re: comment for pam giese from England who grew up near Aztalan?

              --- In ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com, Pamela Giese <pamela_giese2000@ ...> wrote:
               
              Hi All,
               
              Welcome Jim! Good to have you on board!
               The geometry and measurement of things has always interested me. Since coming to the U.K. I've begun studying the work of Alexander Thom who surveyed a number of sites in England and Scotland. Thom eventually derived a measure called the "Megalithic Yard", which he thought was at the basis for many of the Megalithic sites. In common terms, this is 2.72 feet.
               
              Is there a full version of Jim's article online? If not, I can probably get it from the MES editor.
               There's a lot of controversy about Thom's megalithic yard. I've also been reading from authors who believe that the geometry of British megalithic sites are evidence of proto-Pythagorean knowledge. I hope to do more investigating on this myself. Fortunately my new husband rarely goes anywheres without his ranging rods ---see attached photo.
               
              Back to the states...another researcher who's done a lot of work on the unit of measure of the Hopewell and ancient Ohio people is William Romain. If you're interested in this subject, I highly recommend his book: "Mysteries of the Hopewell: Astronomers, Geometers, and Magicians of the Eastern Woodlands". Romain sees the similar unit of 1053 feet occuring across Hopewell sites. This is very close to Jim's 1050 feet in the article's abstract (that's why I thirst for more info). Romain further reduces this measure to a "Hopewell" yard of 2.106 feet. That's about 7.2 inches less than Thom's Megalithic yard.

              Cheers!
              Pam

              This article appeared in the Volume 16, Number 1, 2002 issue of the Midwestern Epigraphic Journal.:

              Old World Units of Measure
              Found in the Layout Geometry of Prehistoric Earthworks at Newark, Ohio, 
               By Dr James P Scherz

              http://www.midweste rnepigraphic. org/scherz. html


              From: Susan English <beldingenglish@ yahoo.com>
              To: Jim Scherz <jpscherz@yahoo. com>
              Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 5:06:42 PM
              Subject: comment for pam giese from England who grew up at Aztalan

              Jim,
              Do you have a comment at Ancient Waterways for Pam Giese, in this post?
              http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ ancient_waterway s_society/ message/745
              Midwestern Epigraphic Society A non-profit tax exempt organization [501.C(3)] under IRS Regulations
                 Home  |   Officers  |   Membership  |  Library  |   Schedule  |   Trips  |   Inscriptions  |   Meetings  |   Archives  |   Shop

              Old World Units of Measure
              Found in the Layout Geometry of Prehistoric Earthworks at Newark, Ohio

              By Dr James P Scherz

              About James P Scherz
              [This article appeared in the Volume 16, Number 1, 2002 issue of the Midwestern Epigraphic Journal.]

              Overview:
              A careful survey of the earthworks at Newark Ohio has revealed not only a solution to the ancient Old World geometrical riddle of "Squaring the Circle" by use of rope geometry (associated with legends of the Great Pyramid of Egypt), but also three different units of measure, which were also used together in ancient Egypt (and other lands influenced by that region).

              These three units of measure include (1) the common foot, which is derived from the old English foot. Its ancient predecessor was preserved in various lands of the Old World until the adoption of the metric system after the early 1800's. Prof. Stecchini (from M.I.T.), who with a lifetime passion studied ancient metrology, says that same foot that we use today was found in the ancient metrology of Mesopotamia in the third millennium B.C. It also was used in Egypt for the times of the earliest written records. In this paper, I refer to this value of the foot as the "statute foot", since it is the foot used to create the statute mile (5280 ft.) and other land survey units such as the chain and the furlong, which are still very much part of the land survey metrology used in the United States.

              Another value of the foot that shows up in Newark is what Prof. Stecchini calls (2) the "geographic foot". It is related to the length of a minute of arc at a latitude which corresponds to that found in lands such as northern Egypt. By definition, there are 6000 geographic feet in a nautical mile (one minute of latitude arc on the surface of the earth). 1/10 of a nautical mile is an ancient land measure called the "geographic stade"--600 geographic feet, or 606 (600 + 6) of our common feet.
              The third unit of measure or type of foot that show up at Newark is the value that Prof. Stecchini calls (3) the " royal foot". It is related to the more commonly known "royal cubit", which is the length of the long diagonal of a cube, the sides of which are the royal foot. It is 1 % shorter that the common ft (600 common ft = 600-6 royal ft.)

              In the Egyptian records, the term "cubit" refers to both the ratio of the long diagonal of a cube to its side (square root of 3 = 1.73205...), and to the ratio of 3/2 (1.5). To avoid confusion, in this paper I will refer to the ratio of 3/2 as the "musical cubit" since the ratio of 3/2 is properly related to the "fifth" in music, the most pleasing tone within an octave. The ratio 3/2 has nothing to do physically with the geometry of a true cube.

              But it does have much to do with how one uses the cube to translate between these three different values of the foot. An in the process, one can also square the circle (create a square with an area equal to a given circle), using only the harmony of the three sinultaneously versions of the foot (to rope surveying accuracy). These various feet were used in northern Africa from the Middle Kington of Egypt to the Roman conquest, when the Roman foot became the standard of land measure.

              Prof. Stecchini says that the Greek rulers of Egypt, known as the Ptolemies, took over and preserved the ancient units of measure from their Egyptian predecessors, but never really understood the full harmony of the ancient units.

              By the time the Ptolemies were defeated by the Romans, the practicing knowledge of the ancient land measures had fallen into disuse. (This knowledge had probably bee secrets of the guilds of temple priests since earliest of times.) When the old Roman Empire fell to the Christians in about 350 AD, the knowledge of the ancient harmonies of the land measures essentially disappeared entirely or was forced underground by the persecution of pre-Christian religion and teachings--a persecution that continued until the times of Copernicus, Bruno, and Professor Galileo in about year 1600 or our Christian calendar.

              After Christians came to political power in about 350 AD, schools and temples run by non-Christians (and some Christians, as well, who did not believe as they should) were attacked and closed. Sacred symbols of various religious competitors were incorporated into the Christian dogma of the devil( from "diva", the name of sacred creator gods from India). A ceremonial number (666) of the Mithraians, their chief religious competitor, was taken as the number of the beast (or devil) who also appeared as the 7-headed snake with horns (the sacred Naga symbol of the East, used to decorate statues of Buddha and Hindu heros). At that time, they also tore Lucifer (the name for the planet Venus) from the skies and sentenced him to live forever in hell with these other creatures and symbols, which must have appeared very strange and frightening to the illiterate minds of the repressed masses of those days.

              Yet the ancient land measures survived the religious upheavals and witch hunts of the Dark and Medieval ages. For example, the ancient number of the calendar of the sun (666 of the Mithraians) is preserved in our statute mile yet today. There are 666 royal feet in a furlong of 660 statute feet ( 1/8 of a statute mile). Of course, for survival purposes those who knew of such things would have kept quiet or would have risked being killed as a witch.

              The presence of the ancient land measures in the geometry of the Indian mounds of our land suggests that the high ancient knowledge of geometry that once was practiced in the pre-Christian Old World was also known by the high priests of the New World who oversaw the layout of impressive earthworks, such as those at Newark, Ohio. The Newark earthworks are thought to have been built by the so-called "Hopewell Indians" who had a high culture with giant ceremonial sites throughout Ohio (and some of the neighboring states) from about 400 BC to AD 400. This is a period that spanned the rise and fall of the Ptolemy rulers of Egypt, and ends about the time that Christians came to political dominance in what was left of the old Roman Empire.

              Symbolically, one of the most notable acts of dominance of the new Christian rule in the Roman Empire was the burning of the Library of Alexandria. Set up by the various rulers of the Ptolemy dynasty, this library was still very much honored by the educated Greeks and Romans and other peoples of the Old World until its Destruction.

              The Ptolemy dynasty had been started by Alexander the Great in about 300 BC. It fell when the Romans conquered Egypt about the time of Christ. The Ptolemies were great patrons of ancient knowledge, credited with collecting the material for the Library of Alexandria
              The revered library was burned by a Christian mob, led by a local bishop, in about 391 AD. An educated woman (named Hypatia) addressed the mob, trying to dissuade them from their plan of destruction. They flayed her alive with clam shells and set fire to the ancient records and the temple to one of the planets, in which the knowledge of the ancient was stored. Great was the fury of the mob and their leaders against the institutions of the old order. And furious was their propaganda and their attacks against religious competitors who might stand in the way of their political dominance over the land and minds of its inhabitants.

              What was once contained in the great collection of ancient knowledge of the world at the Library of Alexandria? We will never know. It went up in smoke. But the ancient harmonies of how the circle of heaven and the land were divided, and how the notes of the musical scales were created to be in harmony with the heaven and earth are with us still. They have survived, along with the angles and distances in certain ancient ceremonial structures, such as the Great Pyramid of Giza, Egypt, and the great Geometrical earthworks in Ohio, the best being the Great Circle and the Octagon Comples at Newark, Ohio

              This paper is version one of two versions. This is the short version. The longer version also incudes further analysis of the ancient harmonies associated with the statute foot, the royal foot, the geographic foot, and the dimensions of the earth. It also includes detailed survey data from the Newark earthworks.

              Full copies of the short version can be made available to interested parties upon request. Copies of the longer version will also be available upon request, once the first draft has been converted to final form.

              Acknowledgements:
                    To the officers and members of The Ancient Earthworks Society, and other dedicated volunteers who have helped survey and study the Indian Mounds of Wisconsin. To the late Jan Beaver, to Larry Johns and to Buck Trawicky who have also surveyed or helped survey ancient earthworks in both Wisconsin and Ohio. Special Acknowledgements are in order to Buck Trawicky for his meticulous field work as rodman on our surveys of the Newark Earthworks, which produced the accuracy needed to see the interplay between the units of 600 + 6 and 600 - 6 ft, (as well as the units of 700 +1.5) of our common or statute foot.

              To Bob Johnson, of Masonic background and one of the founders of The Ancient Earthworks Society, who upon seeing the geometry unfolding from our surveys of the Indian Mounds, implored us to try to figure out the solution to the ancient riddle of squaring the circle with a rope or compass and straight edge.

              To our Native American friends who helped us in our surveying and mapping efforts and our efforts to understand and preserve the ancient Effigy Mounds of Wisconsin--especial ly Pamita, who met us at the Lizard Mound Site. After introducing himself, he said that old Pauees had been his teacher and instructed him to tell people (who wanted to understand and preserve the mounds) some of the history he thought was appropriate to tell.

              To James Marshall of Schaumburg, Illinois, to Bradley Lepper and Shar Hunter of Newark, Ohio, and to the late Jan Beaver, whose grandmother was born in Chillicothe, special acknowledgements and special thanks for their particular help and inspiration.

               
              ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
               

               
              --- On Thu, 1/1/09, james scherz <jpscherz@yahoo. com> wrote:

              From: james scherz <jpscherz@yahoo. com>
              Subject: Re: comment for pam giese from England who grew up at Aztalan
              To: beldingenglish@ yahoo.com
              Date: Thursday, January 1, 2009, 11:34 PM

              Susan,  I cannot get into the site.  For some reason my machine will not accept the cookies and I do not know how to make the correct changes.  Will talk to you when I'm in Wausau again.


              J. P. Scherz

            • Susan
              Vince, All, I deleted my last message as found the link you sent on the 17 page papger Ketip Sacred Rock in Alberta Moon, Mroning star & Blood Sacrifice ,
              Message 6 of 18 , Jan 4, 2009

                Vince, All,

                I deleted my last message as found the link you sent  on the 17 page papger "Ketip Sacred Rock in Alberta Moon, Mroning star & Blood Sacrifice ", by Gordon R. Freeman works fine on my other computer, which is only accessible when WiFi drifts into the neighborhood.

                 You had mentioned the engraved rocks ("glyphstones" or "ribstones")from Alberta) as being atop of a high point, but made of granite, so erosion over time would not be a factor.  I will need to read the article, but wanted to make sure members here know the site is valid.  Thanks for sending it.

                http://www.scribd.com/doc/9667903/Ketip-Sacred-Rock-in-Alberta-Moon-Morning-Star-and-Blood-Sacrifice-by-Gordon-R-Freeman

                (I will CC this to Scherz as he is unable at this point to read Posts and I see your message was listed within the Old World Measures posts by Pam and Jim Scherz.)  I gave the links you sent its own heading, for easier retrieval if anyone decides to comment on or bring up the article again.

                MSE


                --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...> wrote:
                >
                > http://www.scribd.com/doc/9667903/Ketip-Sacred-Rock-in-Alberta-Moon-Morning-Star-and-Blood-Sacrifice-by-Gordon-R-Freeman
                >
                > Here is the link to an article on glyph stones
                >
                >
                > --- On Sat, 1/3/09, Susan beldingenglish@... wrote:
                >
                > From: Susan beldingenglish@...
                > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] JP Scherz' reply-Pam's post re: Thom, Megalithic Yd, Old World Measures
                > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                > Date: Saturday, January 3, 2009, 8:56 AM
                >
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                > Reply from Jim Scherz (who is having computer Cookies problem & cannot open AWS site)
                >  
                >
                > Saturday, January 3, 2009 12:00 AM
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                >
                > From: "james scherz" jpscherz@yahoo. com
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                >
                > To: "Susan English" beldingenglish@ yahoo.com
                >  
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                >
                > Hi,  I am indeed familiar with Thom and the Megalithic Yard.  His work inspired some of our first research into the geometry of the Indian mounds.  From compiling the length of the pace of hundreds of students, I can say that Thom's Yard corresponds to the average pace of a tall person, about 6 ft.  As such, it would have indeed been a convenient standard distance for ancient metrology.  But I have not found the Megalithic Yard in this country.  Instead, we find the geographic foot of about 1.01 of our feet, derived from a minute of latitude arc on the surface of the earth. This distance varies by about 1 % between the earth's equator and the poles.  The average value of a minute of latitude arc is still known as the nautical mile (6076 ft.).  The term mile (from mil) means 1000.  This means there are 1000 units of 6.076 ft in a nautical mile.  This is the ancient fathom, still used by sailors. 
                >
                >     Each land (Egypt, Greece, Troy, etc.) measured the length of the minute of arc and derived their standard units of the foot.  But it was found that these varied from land to land.  And the units of volume and standard weights (weight of water in a given volume) also varied from land to land.  Therefore there were different ounces used for precious metals, such as gold.  The Troy ounce is still a standard in London banking houses, even though Troy fell long, long ago.  Although the written records probably went up in smoke when a fanatical Christian mob burned the library of Alexandria in about AD 400, we know that somewhere along the way the traders of precious metals standardized the foot to the statute (legal) foot .  This is the foot that we still use.   This is used to create the statute mile, the acre, and the chain of 66 ft.  (The acre is 10 square chains).  We find both the local geographic units (the geographic stade of about 606
                > ft.) as well as units of the statute foot (100 ft and 66 ft. etc.)  in the layout of ancient sacred sites in North America.
                >
                >      Yes, I am familiar with the research in Ohio.  We have done some ourselves.  The local geographic stade (1/10 of a minute of latitude arc) is indeed found in the Octagon Mound in Newark Ohio.  And our measurements are accurate to the nearest foot, so I can say that.  We also confirm the diameter of the small circle at the Octagon mound at about 1050 ft.  But here, the mound is very wide and our uncertainty is a couple of feet (maybe as much as 5 feet).  So we would say the diameter is 1050 + or - a few feet.  The geographical stade is 1/10 of the local nautical mile.  And it would follow that a statute stade would be 1/10 of a statude mile or 1/10 x 5280 ft.  This is 528 ft.  Note for a circle that has a diameter of 1050 ft + or - a few feet, that the radius would be 1050 / 2 or 525 + or - a few feet.  This might be a reason.  Or it might not.  We need to sift and winnow this a bit more.
                >
                >       The best reference to ancient metrology that I have found is by Prof. Stecchini in an appendix to Tompkin's book on the Great Pyramid. 
                >
                >
                > Jim Scherz
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > From: Susan English <beldingenglish@ yahoo.com>
                > To: james scherz jpscherz@yahoo. com>
                > Sent: Friday, January 2, 2009 8:20:33 AM
                > Subject: Re: comment for pam giese from England who grew up near Aztalan?
                >
                > --- In ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com, Pamela Giese <pamela_giese2000@ ...> wrote:
                >  
                > Hi All,
                >  
                > Welcome Jim! Good to have you on board!
                >
                >  The geometry and measurement of things has always interested me. Since coming to the U.K. I've begun studying the work of Alexander Thom who surveyed a number of sites in England and Scotland. Thom eventually derived a measure called the "Megalithic Yard", which he thought was at the basis for many of the Megalithic sites. In common terms, this is 2.72 feet.
                >  
                > Is there a full version of Jim's article online? If not, I can probably get it from the MES editor.
                >
                >  There's a lot of controversy about Thom's megalithic yard. I've also been reading from authors who believe that the geometry of British megalithic sites are evidence of proto-Pythagorean knowledge. I hope to do more investigating on this myself. Fortunately my new husband rarely goes anywheres without his ranging rods ---see attached photo.
                >  
                > Back to the states...another researcher who's done a lot of work on the unit of measure of the Hopewell and ancient Ohio people is William Romain. If you're interested in this subject, I highly recommend his book: "Mysteries of the Hopewell: Astronomers, Geometers, and Magicians of the Eastern Woodlands". Romain sees the similar unit of 1053 feet occuring across Hopewell sites. This is very close to Jim's 1050 feet in the article's abstract (that's why I thirst for more info). Romain further reduces this measure to a "Hopewell" yard of 2.106 feet. That's about 7.2 inches less than Thom's Megalithic yard.
                >
                > Cheers!
                >
                > Pam
                > [ Re:  http://www.midweste rnepigraphic. org/scherz. html]
                >
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                >
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                >
                >
                > This article appeared in the Volume 16, Number 1, 2002 issue of the Midwestern Epigraphic Journal.:
                >
                > Old World Units of Measure
                > Found in the Layout Geometry of Prehistoric Earthworks at Newark, Ohio,  By Dr James P Scherz
                > http://www.midweste rnepigraphic. org/scherz. html
                >
                > From: Susan English <beldingenglish@ yahoo.com>
                > To: Jim Scherz jpscherz@yahoo. com>
                > Sent: Wednesday, December 31, 2008 5:06:42 PM
                > Subject: comment for pam giese from England who grew up at Aztalan
                >
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                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Jim,
                > Do you have a comment at Ancient Waterways for Pam Giese, in this post?
                > http://tech. groups.yahoo. com/group/ ancient_waterway s_society/ message/745
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Midwestern Epigraphic Society
                > A non-profit tax exempt organization [501.C(3)] under IRS Regulations
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                >    Home  |   Officers  |   Membership  |  Library  |   Schedule  |   Trips  |   Inscriptions  |   Meetings  |   Archives  |   Shop
                >
                > Old World Units of Measure
                > Found in the Layout Geometry of Prehistoric Earthworks at Newark, Ohio
                > By Dr James P ScherzAbout James P Scherz
                > [This article appeared in the Volume 16, Number 1, 2002 issue of the Midwestern Epigraphic Journal.]
                >
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                > Overview:
                > A careful survey of the earthworks at Newark Ohio has revealed not only a solution to the ancient Old World geometrical riddle of "Squaring the Circle" by use of rope geometry (associated with legends of the Great Pyramid of Egypt), but also three different units of measure, which were also used together in ancient Egypt (and other lands influenced by that region).
                > These three units of measure include (1) the common foot, which is derived from the old English foot. Its ancient predecessor was preserved in various lands of the Old World until the adoption of the metric system after the early 1800's. Prof. Stecchini (from M.I.T.), who with a lifetime passion studied ancient metrology, says that same foot that we use today was found in the ancient metrology of Mesopotamia in the third millennium B.C. It also was used in Egypt for the times of the earliest written records. In this paper, I refer to this value of the foot as the "statute foot", since it is the foot used to create the statute mile (5280 ft.) and other land survey units such as the chain and the furlong, which are still very much part of the land survey metrology used in the United States.
                > Another value of the foot that shows up in Newark is what Prof. Stecchini calls (2) the "geographic foot". It is related to the length of a minute of arc at a latitude which corresponds to that found in lands such as northern Egypt. By definition, there are 6000 geographic feet in a nautical mile (one minute of latitude arc on the surface of the earth). 1/10 of a nautical mile is an ancient land measure called the "geographic stade"--600 geographic feet, or 606 (600 + 6) of our common feet.
                > The third unit of measure or type of foot that show up at Newark is the value that Prof. Stecchini calls (3) the " royal foot". It is related to the more commonly known "royal cubit", which is the length of the long diagonal of a cube, the sides of which are the royal foot. It is 1 % shorter that the common ft (600 common ft = 600-6 royal ft.)
                > In the Egyptian records, the term "cubit" refers to both the ratio of the long diagonal of a cube to its side (square root of 3 = 1.73205...), and to the ratio of 3/2 (1.5). To avoid confusion, in this paper I will refer to the ratio of 3/2 as the "musical cubit" since the ratio of 3/2 is properly related to the "fifth" in music, the most pleasing tone within an octave. The ratio 3/2 has nothing to do physically with the geometry of a true cube.
                > But it does have much to do with how one uses the cube to translate between these three different values of the foot. An in the process, one can also square the circle (create a square with an area equal to a given circle), using only the harmony of the three sinultaneously versions of the foot (to rope surveying accuracy). These various feet were used in northern Africa from the Middle Kington of Egypt to the Roman conquest, when the Roman foot became the standard of land measure.
                > Prof. Stecchini says that the Greek rulers of Egypt, known as the Ptolemies, took over and preserved the ancient units of measure from their Egyptian predecessors, but never really understood the full harmony of the ancient units.
                > By the time the Ptolemies were defeated by the Romans, the practicing knowledge of the ancient land measures had fallen into disuse. (This knowledge had probably bee secrets of the guilds of temple priests since earliest of times.) When the old Roman Empire fell to the Christians in about 350 AD, the knowledge of the ancient harmonies of the land measures essentially disappeared entirely or was forced underground by the persecution of pre-Christian religion and teachings--a persecution that continued until the times of Copernicus, Bruno, and Professor Galileo in about year 1600 or our Christian calendar.
                > After Christians came to political power in about 350 AD, schools and temples run by non-Christians (and some Christians, as well, who did not believe as they should) were attacked and closed. Sacred symbols of various religious competitors were incorporated into the Christian dogma of the devil( from "diva", the name of sacred creator gods from India). A ceremonial number (666) of the Mithraians, their chief religious competitor, was taken as the number of the beast (or devil) who also appeared as the 7-headed snake with horns (the sacred Naga symbol of the East, used to decorate statues of Buddha and Hindu heros). At that time, they also tore Lucifer (the name for the planet Venus) from the skies and sentenced him to live forever in hell with these other creatures and symbols, which must have appeared very strange and frightening to the illiterate minds of the repressed masses of those days.
                > Yet the ancient land measures survived the religious upheavals and witch hunts of the Dark and Medieval ages. For example, the ancient number of the calendar of the sun (666 of the Mithraians) is preserved in our statute mile yet today. There are 666 royal feet in a furlong of 660 statute feet ( 1/8 of a statute mile). Of course, for survival purposes those who knew of such things would have kept quiet or would have risked being killed as a witch.
                > The presence of the ancient land measures in the geometry of the Indian mounds of our land suggests that the high ancient knowledge of geometry that once was practiced in the pre-Christian Old World was also known by the high priests of the New World who oversaw the layout of impressive earthworks, such as those at Newark, Ohio. The Newark earthworks are thought to have been built by the so-called "Hopewell Indians" who had a high culture with giant ceremonial sites throughout Ohio (and some of the neighboring states) from about 400 BC to AD 400. This is a period that spanned the rise and fall of the Ptolemy rulers of Egypt, and ends about the time that Christians came to political dominance in what was left of the old Roman Empire.
                > Symbolically, one of the most notable acts of dominance of the new Christian rule in the Roman Empire was the burning of the Library of Alexandria. Set up by the various rulers of the Ptolemy dynasty, this library was still very much honored by the educated Greeks and Romans and other peoples of the Old World until its Destruction.
                > The Ptolemy dynasty had been started by Alexander the Great in about 300 BC. It fell when the Romans conquered Egypt about the time of Christ. The Ptolemies were great patrons of ancient knowledge, credited with collecting the material for the Library of Alexandria
                > The revered library was burned by a Christian mob, led by a local bishop, in about 391 AD. An educated woman (named Hypatia) addressed the mob, trying to dissuade them from their plan of destruction. They flayed her alive with clam shells and set fire to the ancient records and the temple to one of the planets, in which the knowledge of the ancient was stored. Great was the fury of the mob and their leaders against the institutions of the old order. And furious was their propaganda and their attacks against religious competitors who might stand in the way of their political dominance over the land and minds of its inhabitants.
                > What was once contained in the great collection of ancient knowledge of the world at the Library of Alexandria? We will never know. It went up in smoke. But the ancient harmonies of how the circle of heaven and the land were divided, and how the notes of the musical scales were created to be in harmony with the heaven and earth are with us still. They have survived, along with the angles and distances in certain ancient ceremonial structures, such as the Great Pyramid of Giza, Egypt, and the great Geometrical earthworks in Ohio, the best being the Great Circle and the Octagon Comples at Newark, Ohio
                > This paper is version one of two versions. This is the short version. The longer version also incudes further analysis of the ancient harmonies associated with the statute foot, the royal foot, the geographic foot, and the dimensions of the earth. It also includes detailed survey data from the Newark earthworks.
                > Full copies of the short version can be made available to interested parties upon request. Copies of the longer version will also be available upon request, once the first draft has been converted to final form.
                > Acknowledgements:
                >       To the officers and members of The Ancient Earthworks Society, and other dedicated volunteers who have helped survey and study the Indian Mounds of Wisconsin. To the late Jan Beaver, to Larry Johns and to Buck Trawicky who have also surveyed or helped survey ancient earthworks in both Wisconsin and Ohio. Special Acknowledgements are in order to Buck Trawicky for his meticulous field work as rodman on our surveys of the Newark Earthworks, which produced the accuracy needed to see the interplay between the units of 600 + 6 and 600 - 6 ft, (as well as the units of 700 +1.5) of our common or statute foot.
                > To Bob Johnson, of Masonic background and one of the founders of The Ancient Earthworks Society, who upon seeing the geometry unfolding from our surveys of the Indian Mounds, implored us to try to figure out the solution to the ancient riddle of squaring the circle with a rope or compass and straight edge.
                > To our Native American friends who helped us in our surveying and mapping efforts and our efforts to understand and preserve the ancient Effigy Mounds of Wisconsin--especial ly Pamita, who met us at the Lizard Mound Site. After introducing himself, he said that old Pauees had been his teacher and instructed him to tell people (who wanted to understand and preserve the mounds) some of the history he thought was appropriate to tell.
                > To James Marshall of Schaumburg, Illinois, to Bradley Lepper and Shar Hunter of Newark, Ohio, and to the late Jan Beaver, whose grandmother was born in Chillicothe, special acknowledgements and special thanks for their particular help and inspiration.
                >  
                > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                >  
                >
                >  
                > --- On Thu, 1/1/09, james scherz jpscherz@yahoo. com> wrote:
                >
                >
                > From: james scherz jpscherz@yahoo. com>
                > Subject: Re: comment for pam giese from England who grew up at Aztalan
                > To: beldingenglish@ yahoo.com
                > Date: Thursday, January 1, 2009, 11:34 PM
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Susan,  I cannot get into the site.  For some reason my machine will not accept the cookies and I do not know how to make the correct changes.  Will talk to you when I'm in Wausau again.
                >
                >
                > J. P. Scherz
                >
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