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Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Seeing the Elephant-

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  • Vincent Barrows
    Susan, Ted, Rick, all The above link shows several examples of the symbolism of elephant/ Mastodon/ mammoth symbolism.
    Message 1 of 9 , Nov 16, 2008
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      Susan, Ted, Rick, all

      The above link shows several examples of the symbolism of elephant/ Mastodon/ mammoth symbolism.
      http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/mastadon%20mammoth/

      Susan, Thank you for the excellent links on the pipes and mounds that depict elephants. I favor this Charles Putnams account of the pipe discovery and analysis.

      Also, Thanks to Ted Sojka for sending a few photos of excellent cave drawings from Iowa that depict a Mastodon head, similar to the styles depicted on the other examples. This is consistant with the Break at the base of the Davenport pipe neck. 

      The following link shows distribution of all mammoth/mastodon finds in Illinois.
      http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/mastadon%20mammoth/?action=view&current=P1000683.jpg

      So it seems that these animals were far more common than previously thought. The presence of the motifs on Adena tablets places them into more recent times than previously thought (circa 3000 BC-500 AD).

      Another excellent example of mastodon finds with clovis spear points embedded is from Mastodon State Historic Site in Missouri.
      http://www.mostateparks.com/mastodon.htm

      This seems to raise more questions than answers. For example;
      1. Were tusks/ remains found in such great quantities in the surrounding states?
      2. When was the last mammoth living?
      3. Could Natives have been depicting the animals from skeletal remains that they found?

      http://skywalker.cochise.edu/wellerr/students/mammoth-mastodon/mastodon.htm
      This link placed mammoths up to 4000 years ago in siberia. During this time period, Adena people were firmly developed in Ohio and Illinois.

      Thanks;
      Vince

      --- On Sun, 11/16/08, Susan <beldingenglish@...> wrote:
      From: Susan <beldingenglish@...>
      Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Seeing the Elephant-
      To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Sunday, November 16, 2008, 11:21 AM

      Vince, Rick, and all,

      Vince, would you be able to send a link in addition to the attachment you mentioned you sent in your first 'Seeing the Elephant' post, for some of us who cannot pick up posted attachments on the YahooGroups?  And perhaps one on this subject from the research you share so well with us here and other groups.

      My home is along the Wisconsin River, and here I am sending an 1889 illustration of what is being referreed to as a "so called elephant mound" south of here along this river in Grant County, first written about in the early 1870's.   Looks very elephanty to me, rather than a bear or mastadon. So too with many elephant pipes and other objects.  Illustration by Rev. SD Peet (1880's):   http://books. google.com/ books?id= Ac4JAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA205&lpg=PA205&dq=elephant+ mound+grant+ county&source=bl&ots=Y5NLoXYgCG&sig=0fERqdXphplb5Xt CAgTOEtiSdeE

      Elephant Pipes and Inscribed Tablets in the Museum of the Academy of Natural Sciences, Daveport, Iowa By Charles Edwin Putnam (1886) p. 56+ :   http://books. google.com/ books?id= 3FAXAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA66&lpg=PA66&dq=elephant+ mound&source=web&ots=bnxv0tK4AK&sig=C_S60QE1- ukTNR47oG1P8YSjR -g#PPA80, M1

      ...  I suggest also checking out first pages of book for prime exemplification of the still raging controversy between conventional vs diffusionist viewpoints, both of which may still be missing other valid considerations which would align both 'sides' scientically, as well as amicably:   Mysteries of Native American Myth & Religion:  The Case for Cultural Diffusion, by Gary R. Varner (2007)   p. 231+

      http://books. google.com/ books?id= e8XsiW4V8BsC&pg=PA231&lpg=PA231&dq=elephant+ mound+native+ american&source=web&ots=lGhlWDJARB&sig=5wOQNRLtBqUzvOZ JviKJYMOCYKI

      --- In ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@.. .> wrote:
      >
      > Rick Osmon;
      > Enjoyed your recent piece on Blog Talk Radio called "Seeing The Elephant." Sorry I missed it, as I was offshore on an oil port.
      >
      > When visiting the Smithsonian Institute on a collections tour with
      > David Rosenthal, I photographed several artifacts including the Holly
      > Oak Pendant . I was disappointed to find that the artifact was broken
      > when I photographed it. David Rosenthal sated that it was broken by
      > accident when carbon dating for an article.
      >
      > However, I
      > compiled evidence in the attached document about Native American
      > artifacts with elephant or mastodon symbolism. Here you can see that
      > several artifacts include depictions that resemble elephant heads,
      > broken off in just the way that the Holly Oak Pendant fractured.
      >
      > In addition, Indian Mythology includes stories of the Elephant head, in which Ganesh and Parvati are prevalent figures.
      >
      > To
      > summarize, I am suggesting that this depiction was authentic based on
      > the similarity to other artifacts and due to parallels in Indian
      > mythology .
      >
      > Any comments, criticism. discussion, etc. are welcome.
      > Thank you;
      > Vince Barrows
      >


    • Vincent Barrows
      Here is a very interesting website about copper and Etowah Mounds. http://www.valdostamuseum.org/hamsmith/EtowahMounds.html ... From: Vincent Barrows
      Message 2 of 9 , Nov 17, 2008
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        Here is a very interesting website about copper and Etowah Mounds.
        http://www.valdostamuseum.org/hamsmith/EtowahMounds.html


        --- On Sun, 11/16/08, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...> wrote:
        From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
        Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Seeing the Elephant-
        To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Sunday, November 16, 2008, 1:44 PM

        Susan, Ted, Rick, all

        The above link shows several examples of the symbolism of elephant/ Mastodon/ mammoth symbolism.
        http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/ mastadon% 20mammoth/

        Susan, Thank you for the excellent links on the pipes and mounds that depict elephants. I favor this Charles Putnams account of the pipe discovery and analysis.

        Also, Thanks to Ted Sojka for sending a few photos of excellent cave drawings from Iowa that depict a Mastodon head, similar to the styles depicted on the other examples. This is consistant with the Break at the base of the Davenport pipe neck. 

        The following link shows distribution of all mammoth/mastodon finds in Illinois.
        http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/ mastadon% 20mammoth/ ?action=view&current=P1000683. jpg

        So it seems that these animals were far more common than previously thought. The presence of the motifs on Adena tablets places them into more recent times than previously thought (circa 3000 BC-500 AD).

        Another excellent example of mastodon finds with clovis spear points embedded is from Mastodon State Historic Site in Missouri.
        http://www.mostatep arks.com/ mastodon. htm

        This seems to raise more questions than answers. For example;
        1. Were tusks/ remains found in such great quantities in the surrounding states?
        2. When was the last mammoth living?
        3. Could Natives have been depicting the animals from skeletal remains that they found?

        http://skywalker. cochise.edu/ wellerr/students /mammoth- mastodon/ mastodon. htm
        This link placed mammoths up to 4000 years ago in siberia. During this time period, Adena people were firmly developed in Ohio and Illinois.

        Thanks;
        Vince

        --- On Sun, 11/16/08, Susan <beldingenglish@ yahoo.com> wrote:
        From: Susan <beldingenglish@ yahoo.com>
        Subject: [ancient_waterways_ society] Re: Seeing the Elephant-
        To: ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com
        Date: Sunday, November 16, 2008, 11:21 AM

        Vince, Rick, and all,

        Vince, would you be able to send a link in addition to the attachment you mentioned you sent in your first 'Seeing the Elephant' post, for some of us who cannot pick up posted attachments on the YahooGroups?  And perhaps one on this subject from the research you share so well with us here and other groups.

        My home is along the Wisconsin River, and here I am sending an 1889 illustration of what is being referreed to as a "so called elephant mound" south of here along this river in Grant County, first written about in the early 1870's.   Looks very elephanty to me, rather than a bear or mastadon. So too with many elephant pipes and other objects.  Illustration by Rev. SD Peet (1880's):   http://books. google.com/ books?id= Ac4JAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA205&lpg=PA205&dq=elephant+ mound+grant+ county&source=bl&ots=Y5NLoXYgCG&sig=0fERqdXphplb5Xt CAgTOEtiSdeE

        Elephant Pipes and Inscribed Tablets in the Museum of the Academy of Natural Sciences, Daveport, Iowa By Charles Edwin Putnam (1886) p. 56+ :   http://books. google.com/ books?id= 3FAXAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA66&lpg=PA66&dq=elephant+ mound&source=web&ots=bnxv0tK4AK&sig=C_S60QE1- ukTNR47oG1P8YSjR -g#PPA80, M1

        ...  I suggest also checking out first pages of book for prime exemplification of the still raging controversy between conventional vs diffusionist viewpoints, both of which may still be missing other valid considerations which would align both 'sides' scientically, as well as amicably:   Mysteries of Native American Myth & Religion:  The Case for Cultural Diffusion, by Gary R. Varner (2007)   p. 231+

        http://books. google.com/ books?id= e8XsiW4V8BsC&pg=PA231&lpg=PA231&dq=elephant+ mound+native+ american&source=web&ots=lGhlWDJARB&sig=5wOQNRLtBqUzvOZ JviKJYMOCYKI

        --- In ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@.. .> wrote:
        >
        > Rick Osmon;
        > Enjoyed your recent piece on Blog Talk Radio called "Seeing The Elephant." Sorry I missed it, as I was offshore on an oil port.
        >
        > When visiting the Smithsonian Institute on a collections tour with
        > David Rosenthal, I photographed several artifacts including the Holly
        > Oak Pendant . I was disappointed to find that the artifact was broken
        > when I photographed it. David Rosenthal sated that it was broken by
        > accident when carbon dating for an article.
        >
        > However, I
        > compiled evidence in the attached document about Native American
        > artifacts with elephant or mastodon symbolism. Here you can see that
        > several artifacts include depictions that resemble elephant heads,
        > broken off in just the way that the Holly Oak Pendant fractured.
        >
        > In addition, Indian Mythology includes stories of the Elephant head, in which Ganesh and Parvati are prevalent figures.
        >
        > To
        > summarize, I am suggesting that this depiction was authentic based on
        > the similarity to other artifacts and due to parallels in Indian
        > mythology .
        >
        > Any comments, criticism. discussion, etc. are welcome.
        > Thank you;
        > Vince Barrows
        >



      • Susan
        There seems little doubt these days that First Nations peoples lived among the mastadon many thousands of years ago. The elephant mounds around the
        Message 3 of 9 , Nov 19, 2008
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          There seems little doubt these days that First Nations peoples lived among the mastadon many thousands of years ago.  The elephant mounds around the Mississippi River is a puzzle, though clearly associated with First Nations socieites and possibly many groups of peoples traveling the Great Lakes--Mississippi Riverways from beyohnd the continent.  I hope this line in inquiry continues.  Jim Scherz will contact a Native American/former engineering student of his from the University of Wisconsin, Larry Johns, who led members from the Ancient Earthworks Society on a field trip of Madison  area effigy mounds prior to one of their monthly meetings on the UW campus.  Larry has done serious studies on the elephant symbology and would be very interested in some of the research insights of this group.  Jim said he is familiar with someone who owns property on which one of the elephant effigies rests or once rested.

          In the rather poor quality video remake/YouTube below are two more examples of elephant symbols-one from Mexico's Yucatan Peninsula and another from Peru. Wayne May is speaking at a Western US diffusionist conference and I am guessing it to be in '07. The elephants are halfway through the nearly ten minute video.

          On the You Tube page you will see similar videoclips which include several  on the tens of thousands of Michigan relics and tablets found turn of the century in Lower Michigan:   "Wayne May on Ancient American Artifacts": 

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lKOpsXMgkEc&feature=related

          Susan 

          --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...> wrote:
          >
          > Susan, Ted, Rick, all
          >
          > The above link shows several examples of the symbolism of elephant/ Mastodon/ mammoth symbolism.
          > http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/mastadon%20mammoth/
          >
          > Susan, Thank you for the excellent links on the pipes and mounds that depict elephants. I favor this Charles Putnams account of the pipe discovery and analysis.
          >
          > Also, Thanks to Ted Sojka for sending a few photos of excellent cave drawings from Iowa that depict a Mastodon head, similar to the styles depicted on the other examples. This is consistant with the Break at the base of the Davenport pipe neck. 
          >
          > The following link shows distribution of all mammoth/mastodon finds in Illinois.
          > http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/mastadon%20mammoth/?action=view&current=P1000683.jpg
          >
          > So it seems that these animals were far more common than previously thought. The presence of the motifs on Adena tablets places them into more recent times than previously thought (circa 3000 BC-500 AD).
          >
          > Another excellent example of mastodon finds with clovis spear points embedded is from Mastodon State Historic Site in Missouri.
          > http://www.mostateparks.com/mastodon.htm
          >
          > This seems to raise more questions than answers. For example;
          > 1. Were tusks/ remains found in such great quantities in the surrounding states?
          > 2. When was the last mammoth living?
          > 3. Could Natives have been depicting the animals from skeletal remains that they found?
          >
          > http://skywalker.cochise.edu/wellerr/students/mammoth-mastodon/mastodon.htm
          > This link placed mammoths up to 4000 years ago in siberia. During this time period, Adena people were firmly developed in Ohio and Illinois.
          >
          > Thanks;
          > Vince
          >
          > --- On Sun, 11/16/08, Susan beldingenglish@... wrote:
          > From: Susan beldingenglish@...
          > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Seeing the Elephant-
          > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
          > Date: Sunday, November 16, 2008, 11:21 AM
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Vince, Rick, and all,
          > Vince, would you be able to send a link in addition to the attachment you mentioned you sent in your first 'Seeing the Elephant' post, for some of us who cannot pick up posted attachments on the YahooGroups?  And perhaps one on this subject from the research you share so well with us here and other groups.
          > My home is along the Wisconsin River, and here I am sending an 1889 illustration of what is being referreed to as a "so called elephant mound" south of here along this river in Grant County, first written about in the early 1870's.   Looks very elephanty to me, rather than a bear or mastadon. So too with many elephant pipes and other objects.  Illustration by Rev. SD Peet (1880's):   http://books. google.com/ books?id= Ac4JAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA205&lpg=PA205&dq=elephant+ mound+grant+ county&source=bl&ots=Y5NLoXYgCG&sig=0fERqdXphplb5Xt CAgTOEtiSdeE
          > Elephant Pipes and Inscribed Tablets in the Museum of the Academy of Natural Sciences, Daveport, Iowa By Charles Edwin Putnam (1886) p. 56+ :   http://books. google.com/ books?id= 3FAXAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA66&lpg=PA66&dq=elephant+ mound&source=web&ots=bnxv0tK4AK&sig=C_S60QE1- ukTNR47oG1P8YSjR -g#PPA80, M1
          >
          > ...  I suggest also checking out first pages of book for prime exemplification of the still raging controversy between conventional vs diffusionist viewpoints, both of which may still be missing other valid considerations which would align both 'sides' scientically, as well as amicably:   Mysteries of Native American Myth & Religion:  The Case for Cultural Diffusion, by Gary R. Varner (2007)   p. 231+
          > http://books. google.com/ books?id= e8XsiW4V8BsC&pg=PA231&lpg=PA231&dq=elephant+ mound+native+ american&source=web&ots=lGhlWDJARB&sig=5wOQNRLtBqUzvOZ JviKJYMOCYKI
          > --- In ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com, Vincent Barrows v_barrows@ .> wrote:
          > >
          > > Rick Osmon;
          > > Enjoyed your recent piece on Blog Talk Radio called "Seeing The Elephant." Sorry I missed it, as I was offshore on an oil port.
          > >
          > > When visiting the Smithsonian Institute on a collections tour with
          > > David Rosenthal, I photographed several artifacts including the Holly
          > > Oak Pendant . I was disappointed to find that the artifact was broken
          > > when I photographed it. David Rosenthal sated that it was broken by
          > > accident when carbon dating for an article.
          > >
          > > However, I
          > > compiled evidence in the attached document about Native American
          > > artifacts with elephant or mastodon symbolism. Here you can see that
          > > several artifacts include depictions that resemble elephant heads,
          > > broken off in just the way that the Holly Oak Pendant fractured.
          > >
          > > In addition, Indian Mythology includes stories of the Elephant head, in which Ganesh and Parvati are prevalent figures.
          > >
          > > To
          > > summarize, I am suggesting that this depiction was authentic based on
          > > the similarity to other artifacts and due to parallels in Indian
          > > mythology .
          > >
          > > Any comments, criticism. discussion, etc. are welcome.
          > > Thank you;
          > > Vince Barrows
          > >
          >

        • Susan
          Vince, Rick and those who earlier expressed (incl. three non-member surveyors who emailed) their interest/personal experience in elephant motif in ancient
          Message 4 of 9 , Dec 14, 2008
          • 0 Attachment

            Vince, Rick and those who earlier expressed  (incl. three non-member surveyors who emailed) their interest/personal experience  in elephant motif  in ancient N. America and mound(s) in Wisconsin....:

            Here is another excerpt from the Putnam account. The 1886 mention of two Elephant Mounds It raises a question.:     http://books.google.com/books?id=3FAXAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA66&lpg=PA66&dq=elephant+mounds&source=web&ots=bnxyWxJ1xP&sig=FYKSVi4uoVVxWJkB48DPFlC6hCs&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=1&ct=result

            Which begs a question, if there were at least two Elephant Mounds in Wisconsin (one is or waslocatd  on the Mississippi River bottom !), and I am only aware of one Elephant Mound in Grant County, I am wondering more about both, especially the one apparently no longer existing.  Larry, or others here, do you know more about some of the significant meaning of the site(s)?

              

            --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...> wrote:
            >
            > Susan, Ted, Rick, all
            >
            > The above link shows several examples of the symbolism of elephant/ Mastodon/ mammoth symbolism.
            > http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/mastadon%20mammoth/
            >
            > Susan, Thank you for the excellent links on the pipes and mounds that depict elephants. I favor this Charles Putnams account of the pipe discovery and analysis.
            >
            > Also, Thanks to Ted Sojka for sending a few photos of excellent cave drawings from Iowa that depict a Mastodon head, similar to the styles depicted on the other examples. This is consistant with the Break at the base of the Davenport pipe neck. 
            >
            > The following link shows distribution of all mammoth/mastodon finds in Illinois.
            > http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/mastadon%20mammoth/?action=view&current=P1000683.jpg
            >
            > So it seems that these animals were far more common than previously thought. The presence of the motifs on Adena tablets places them into more recent times than previously thought (circa 3000 BC-500 AD).
            >
            > Another excellent example of mastodon finds with clovis spear points embedded is from Mastodon State Historic Site in Missouri.
            > http://www.mostateparks.com/mastodon.htm
            >
            > This seems to raise more questions than answers. For example;
            > 1. Were tusks/ remains found in such great quantities in the surrounding states?
            > 2. When was the last mammoth living?
            > 3. Could Natives have been depicting the animals from skeletal remains that they found?
            >
            > http://skywalker.cochise.edu/wellerr/students/mammoth-mastodon/mastodon.htm
            > This link placed mammoths up to 4000 years ago in siberia. During this time period, Adena people were firmly developed in Ohio and Illinois.
            >
            > Thanks;
            > Vince
            >
            > --- On Sun, 11/16/08, Susan beldingenglish@... wrote:
            > From: Susan beldingenglish@...
            > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Seeing the Elephant-
            > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Sunday, November 16, 2008, 11:21 AM
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Vince, Rick, and all,
            > Vince, would you be able to send a link in addition to the attachment you mentioned you sent in your first 'Seeing the Elephant' post, for some of us who cannot pick up posted attachments on the YahooGroups?  And perhaps one on this subject from the research you share so well with us here and other groups.
            > My home is along the Wisconsin River, and here I am sending an 1889 illustration of what is being referreed to as a "so called elephant mound" south of here along this river in Grant County, first written about in the early 1870's.   Looks very elephanty to me, rather than a bear or mastadon. So too with many elephant pipes and other objects.  Illustration by Rev. SD Peet (1880's):   http://books. google.com/ books?id= Ac4JAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA205&lpg=PA205&dq=elephant+ mound+grant+ county&source=bl&ots=Y5NLoXYgCG&sig=0fERqdXphplb5Xt CAgTOEtiSdeE
            > Elephant Pipes and Inscribed Tablets in the Museum of the Academy of Natural Sciences, Daveport, Iowa By Charles Edwin Putnam (1886) p. 56+ :   http://books. google.com/ books?id= 3FAXAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA66&lpg=PA66&dq=elephant+ mound&source=web&ots=bnxv0tK4AK&sig=C_S60QE1- ukTNR47oG1P8YSjR -g#PPA80, M1
            >
            > ...  I suggest also checking out first pages of book for prime exemplification of the still raging controversy between conventional vs diffusionist viewpoints, both of which may still be missing other valid considerations which would align both 'sides' scientically, as well as amicably:   Mysteries of Native American Myth & Religion:  The Case for Cultural Diffusion, by Gary R. Varner (2007)   p. 231+
            > http://books. google.com/ books?id= e8XsiW4V8BsC&pg=PA231&lpg=PA231&dq=elephant+ mound+native+ american&source=web&ots=lGhlWDJARB&sig=5wOQNRLtBqUzvOZ JviKJYMOCYKI
            > --- In ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com, Vincent Barrows v_barrows@ .> wrote:
            > >
            > > Rick Osmon;
            > > Enjoyed your recent piece on Blog Talk Radio called "Seeing The Elephant." Sorry I missed it, as I was offshore on an oil port.
            > >
            > > When visiting the Smithsonian Institute on a collections tour with
            > > David Rosenthal, I photographed several artifacts including the Holly
            > > Oak Pendant . I was disappointed to find that the artifact was broken
            > > when I photographed it. David Rosenthal sated that it was broken by
            > > accident when carbon dating for an article.
            > >
            > > However, I
            > > compiled evidence in the attached document about Native American
            > > artifacts with elephant or mastodon symbolism. Here you can see that
            > > several artifacts include depictions that resemble elephant heads,
            > > broken off in just the way that the Holly Oak Pendant fractured.
            > >
            > > In addition, Indian Mythology includes stories of the Elephant head, in which Ganesh and Parvati are prevalent figures.
            > >
            > > To
            > > summarize, I am suggesting that this depiction was authentic based on
            > > the similarity to other artifacts and due to parallels in Indian
            > > mythology .
            > >
            > > Any comments, criticism. discussion, etc. are welcome.
            > > Thank you;
            > > Vince Barrows
            > >
            >

          • Susan
            To add to the archives here....picking up on a previous theme Seeing the Elephant started by Rick Osman (Oopa Loopa Cafe program), Vince Barrows, and Stan
            Message 5 of 9 , Mar 27, 2009
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              To add to the archives here....picking up on a previous theme "Seeing the Elephant" started by Rick Osman (Oopa Loopa Cafe program), Vince Barrows, and Stan last November... I ran across another Midwestern Epigraphic Society article, two elephant (mastadon ?) petroglyphs were discovered at Barnesville Track Rocks: http://www.midwesternepigraphic.org/elephant01.html

              Susan

              From: Vincent Barrows v_barrows@...
              Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Seeing the Elephant-
              To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Sunday, November 16, 2008, 1:44 PM
               
              Susan, Ted, Rick, all
              The above link shows several examples of the symbolism of elephant/ Mastodon/ mammoth symbolism. 
              http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/mastadon%20mammoth/

              Susan, Thank you for the excellent links on the pipes and mounds that depict elephants. I favor this Charles Putnams account of the pipe discovery and analysis. 
              http://books.google.com/books?id=3FAXAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA66&lpg=PA66&dq=elephant+mound&source=web&ots=bnxv0tK4AK&sig=C_S60QE1-ukTNR47oG1P8YSjR-g#PPA80,M1 

              Also, Thanks to Ted Sojka for sending a few photos of excellent cave drawings from Iowa that depict a Mastodon head, similar to the styles depicted on the other examples. This is consistant with the Break at the base of the Davenport pipe neck.  

               The following link shows distribution of all mammoth/mastodon finds in Illinois. 
              http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/mastadon%20mammoth/action=view&current=P1000683.jpg

              So it seems that these animals were  far more common than previously thought. The presence of the motifs on Adena tablets places them into more recent times than previously thought (circa 3000 BC-500 AD). 

              Another excellent example of mastodon finds with clovis spear points embedded is from Mastodon State Historic Site in Missouri.
              http://www.mostateparks.com/mastodon.htm

               This seems to raise more questions than answers. For example;

              1. Were tusks/ remains found in such great quantities in the surrounding states?
              2. When was the last mammoth living?
              3. Could Natives have been depicting the animals from skeletal remains that they found?
               
              http://skywalker.cochise.edu/wellerr/students/mammoth-mastodon/mastodon.htm

               This link placed mammoths up to 4000 years ago in siberia. During this time period, Adena people were firmly developed in Ohio and Illinois. 
               
              Thanks;
              Vince

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