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South Carolina shipping maps

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  • Ray
    I m looking for any site or sites that I can obtain maps, featuring the ancient waterways of Spanish and/or English shipping, in the Charleston Harbor in
    Message 1 of 26 , Nov 5, 2008
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      I'm looking for any site or sites that I can obtain maps, featuring the
      ancient waterways of Spanish and/or English shipping, in the Charleston
      Harbor in Charleston, South Carolina.

      You can email me direct at either address below.


      Thanks,
      Ray S.

      ray63s@...

      Megalodon843@...
    • Rick Osmon
      Hi Ray, I don t recall seeing any single map with both periods on it, however there is, or was in the early 90 s, a small museum in Charleston, mostly
      Message 2 of 26 , Nov 6, 2008
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        Hi Ray,
         
        I don't recall seeing any single map with both periods on it, however there is, or was in the early 90's, a small museum in Charleston, mostly geared toward the English and Civil war periods, and featuring prominently, the "pirate's siege" by Edward Teach. In fact, I think it was called Black Beard's Museum.  Anyway, they had a very good map wall of shipping and warfare in and around the harbor back when I visited.
         
        They also had some info about suspected wreck sites that included the finally promoted site of the Adventure
         
        Hope this helps
         
        Oz

        --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <ray63s@...> wrote:
        >
        > I'm looking for any site or sites that I can obtain maps, featuring the
        > ancient waterways of Spanish and/or English shipping, in the Charleston
        > Harbor in Charleston, South Carolina.
        >
        > You can email me direct at either address below.
        >
        >
        > Thanks,
        > Ray S.
        >
        > ray63s@...
        >
        > Megalodon843@...
        >
      • Susan
        Ray, and All, This group being an on-line meeting place , we are all learning from each other and I am glad Rick wrote to Ray via this site. I was unable to
        Message 3 of 26 , Nov 6, 2008
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          Ray, and All,

          This group being an 'on-line meeting place', we are all learning from each other and I am glad Rick wrote to Ray via this site.

          I was unable to come up with the era you are seeking but perhaps for others here also unfamiliar with waterways in that part of the US, here is a large 4/27/1861 Harpers Weekly map of Charleston Harbor:

           http://www.sonofthesouth.net/leefoundation/civil-war/1861/april/map-charleston-harbor.htm

          The beauty of having people from many parts of the US and globe at this site is finding out new bits of information beyond our own localities.  This 1992  paper from the US Army Corps of Engineering in Charleston, a " A Cultural Resources Renaissance...." states future operations will  require continued dredging of navigation channels into and within Charleston Harbor.   Chapter II gives an excellent overview of geological, climactic settings, water  and shorelines as far back as 20,000 years ago.  Plus interesting socio-cultural data for the area.  Envisioning early historic and ancient data and looking at maps always make me want to visit and take a ride while someones navigates me around particular areas.  Charleston is now on my list.

          http://www.scdhec.net/environment/ocrm/pubs/docs/tech_docs/cult-hist2part1.pdf

          Maybe others may find more details. I have a calling card from a couple of older fellows who own a map shop in the French Quarter of New Orleans who had old maps from all over the south and SE they were showing me for several hours when I was down there working with a gutting crew and tourists not yet venturing in.

          Thanks for the inquiry, Ray.

          --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <ray63s@...> wrote:
          >
          > I'm looking for any site or sites that I can obtain maps, featuring the
          > ancient waterways of Spanish and/or English shipping, in the Charleston
          > Harbor in Charleston, South Carolina.
          >
          > You can email me direct at either address below.
          >
          >
          > Thanks,
          > Ray S.
          >
          > ray63s@...
          >
          > Megalodon843@...
          >

        • Vincent Barrows
          Research has revealed yet another engraved bannerstone example with comparable engravings from Rhode Island Historical Society Collections This example is
          Message 4 of 26 , Nov 6, 2008
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            Research has revealed yet another engraved bannerstone example with comparable engravings from Rhode Island Historical Society Collections This example is called the Vaughn Butterfly, after its finder, A.T. Vaughn.

            Vaughn Butterfly

            Found near the Kickmuit River, in Burr's Hill Burial Ground, Warren, RI

            Rhode Island Historical Society Collections, By Rhode Island Historical Society, Published by s.n., 1918, Item notes: v.11-14, Original from the University of Michigan. Digitized Mar 22, 2008.

             The following Nagpra notice for inventory completion shed light on its discovery, and interpretation. 

            In 1894, human remains representing three individuals were
            recovered from the Burr's Hill Burial Ground, Warren, RI, by A.T.
            Vaughn, who donated these remains to the Museum of Natural History and
            Planetarium in 1900. No known individuals were identified. Museum
            documentation indicates that ``curios'' were found with these human
            remains, and were transferred in 1913 to the Heye Foundation (now the
            National Museum of the American Indian) as part of an exchange. No
            associated funerary objects are now present in the collections of the
            Museum of Natural History and Planetarium.
            Based on skeletal morphology and extensive copper staining, these
            individuals have been identified as Native American from the 17th
            century. Based on physical evidence, consultation with tribal
            representatives, and geographic/provenience information, these
            individuals have been determined to be culturally affiliated with the
            Narragansett Indian Tribe of Rhode Island and Wampanoag Tribe of
            Aquinnah.
            Interesting to compare the angle of the diagonal spear or stick held by the anthropomorphic figure with the Welch Butterfly.

            Vince Barrows
            http://www.freewebs.com/historyofmonksmound/welchbutterfly.htm
             

          • Ray
            Thank you for all the information you have provided me. I think it will be useful in my search.   Ray ... From: Rick Osmon Subject:
            Message 5 of 26 , Nov 9, 2008
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              Thank you for all the information you have provided me. I think it will be useful in my search.
               
              Ray

              --- On Thu, 11/6/08, Rick Osmon <ozman@...> wrote:
              From: Rick Osmon <ozman@...>
              Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: South Carolina shipping maps
              To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Thursday, November 6, 2008, 8:58 AM

              Hi Ray,
               
              I don't recall seeing any single map with both periods on it, however there is, or was in the early 90's, a small museum in Charleston, mostly geared toward the English and Civil war periods, and featuring prominently, the "pirate's siege" by Edward Teach. In fact, I think it was called Black Beard's Museum.  Anyway, they had a very good map wall of shipping and warfare in and around the harbor back when I visited.
               
              They also had some info about suspected wreck sites that included the finally promoted site of the Adventure
               
              Hope this helps
               
              Oz

              --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Ray" <ray63s@...> wrote:
              >
              > I'm looking for any site or sites that I can obtain maps, featuring the
              > ancient waterways of Spanish and/or English shipping, in the Charleston
              > Harbor in Charleston, South Carolina.
              >
              > You can email me direct at either address below.
              >
              >
              > Thanks,
              > Ray S.
              >
              > ray63s@...
              >
              > Megalodon843@...
              >

            • Vincent Barrows
              Dear David Penney;Hopefully this correspondence finds you well. I am writing to share information about another engraved bannerstone example called the Vaughn
              Message 6 of 26 , Nov 9, 2008
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                Dear David Penney;

                Hopefully this correspondence finds you well.


                I am writing to share information about another engraved bannerstone example called the Vaughn Butterfly, after its finder, A.T. Vaughn. The example is from Rhode Island Historical Society Collections and details of its engravings reveal in a sort of eureka way another bannerstone with engravings.

                Vaughn Butterfly

                Found near the Kickmuit River, in Burr's Hill Burial Ground, Warren, RI

                Source: Rhode Island Historical Society Collections, By Rhode Island Historical Society, Published by s.n., 1918, Item notes: v.11-14, Original from the University of Michigan. Digitized Mar 22, 2008.

                The following Nagpra notice for inventory completion sheds light on its discovery, and interpretation. 

                In 1894, human remains representing three individuals were
                recovered from the Burr's Hill Burial Ground, Warren, RI, by A.T.
                Vaughn, who donated these remains to the Museum of Natural History and
                Planetarium in 1900. No known individuals were identified. Museum
                documentation indicates that ``curios'' were found with these human
                remains, and were transferred in 1913 to the Heye Foundation (now the
                National Museum of the American Indian) as part of an exchange. No
                associated funerary objects are now present in the collections of the
                Museum of Natural History and Planetarium.
                Based on skeletal morphology and extensive copper staining, these
                individuals have been identified as Native American from the 17th
                century. Based on physical evidence, consultation with tribal
                representatives, and geographic/provenience information, these
                individuals have been determined to be culturally affiliated with the
                Narragansett Indian Tribe of Rhode Island and Wampanoag Tribe Aquinnah.
                Interesting to compare the angle of the diagonal spear or stick held by the anthropomorphic figure with the Welch Butterfly. 

                 

                Had you seen the Vaughn Butterfly and do you think these engravings indicate parallels in the symbolism on each example?

                Thanks

                Vince Barrows




              • Vincent Barrows
                Destroyed by railroad construction in 1869, Carver s Cave at St. Paul was called by the Dakotas Wakan Teepee --sacred lodge. In the days that are no more,
                Message 7 of 26 , Nov 9, 2008
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                  Destroyed by railroad construction in 1869, Carver's Cave at St. Paul was called by the Dakotas "Wakan Teepee"--sacred lodge. In the days that are no more, they lighted their Council-fires in this cave, and buried their dead near it. See Neill's Hist. Minn., p. 207. Capt. Carver in his _Travels_, London, 1778, p. 63, et seq., describes this cave as follows: "It is a remarkable cave of an amazing depth. The Indians term it Wakon-teebe, that is, the Dwelling of the Great Spirit. The entrance into it is about ten feet wide, the height of it five feet, the arch within is near fifteen feet high and about thirty feet broad. The bottom of it consists of fine clear sand. About twenty feet

                  from the entrance begins a lake, the water of which is transparent, and extends to an unsearchable distance; for the darkness of the cave prevents all attempts to acquire a knowledge of it. I threw a small pebble towards

                  the interior parts of it with my utmost strength. I could hear that it fell into the water, and notwithstanding it was of so small a size, it caused an astonishing and horrible noise that reverberated through all those gloomy

                  regions. I found in this cave many Indian hieroglyphics, which appeared very ancient, for time had nearly covered them with moss, so that it was with difficulty I could trace them. They were cut in a rude manner upon the

                  inside of the walls, which were composed of a stone so extremely soft that it might be easily penetrated with a knife: a stone everywhere to be found near the Mississippi. This cave is only accessible by ascending a narrow,

                  steep passage that lies near the brink of the river. At a little distance from this dreary cavern is the burying-place of several bands of the Naudowessie (Dakota) Indians." Many years ago the roof fell in, but the cave has been partially restored and is now used as a beer cellar."


                  LECTURE ON THE ABORIGINES OF Newfoundland,     Delivered before the Mechanics Institute, at St.John's, on Monday, 17th January, BY THE HON. JOSEPH NOAD,  Surveyor-General. ST. JOHN'S, NEWFOUNDLAND:   R.J. PARSONS, PRINTER.1859.


                • Susan
                  Thanks Vince for the article. I was just writing a retired engineer living in Minneapolis-St. Paul who had attended the AAPS Marquette confernce and stopped
                  Message 8 of 26 , Nov 9, 2008
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                    Thanks Vince for the article.  I was just writing a retired engineer living in Minneapolis-St. Paul who had attended the AAPS Marquette confernce and stopped here last night and this morning to discuss ancient navigation and trade.  Coincidently, in this post I had just sent the following links and inquiry for more info on Carvers Cave if he should happen to hear:

                    ...I forgot to include the link to the remote Misry Bay formerly Carver Bay aalong SE Lake Superior after exlorer/naviator Jonathan Carver):
                     
                    A Carver era sketch of St. Paul's St. Anthony Falls...scroll down the Army Corps of Engineering site. http://www.mvp.usace.army.mil/history/engineering/
                     
                    Carver Cave was discovered mid-1770's by Jonathoan Carver near present day Mound St. in St. Paul (are there still mounds at that location?). Anything more you hear on it or other possibly even more ancient sites in the twin cites, I'd be very interested, for our web site, maybe an article in Ancient American Magazine, and AAPS, etc. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carver's_Cave
                     
                    ....on a future 'road trip' across the border of the US and Canada, the  ancient waterway region where the Twin Cities is located might be an appropriate starting point for mapping historic and ancient water routes to/from the NE Atlantic coast....   
                     
                    ....-- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Destroyed by railroad construction in 1869, Carver's
                    > Cave at St. Paul was called by the Dakotas "Wakan Teepee"--sacred
                    > lodge. In the days that are no more, they lighted their Council-fires
                    > in this cave, and buried their dead near it. See Neill's Hist. Minn., p. 207. Capt. Carver in his
                    > _Travels_, London, 1778, p. 63, et
                    > seq., describes this cave as follows: "It is a remarkable cave of an amazing
                    > depth. The Indians term it Wakon-teebe, that is, the Dwelling of the Great
                    > Spirit. The entrance into it is about ten feet wide, the height of it
                    > five feet, the arch within is near fifteen feet high and about thirty feet
                    > broad. The bottom of it consists of fine clear sand. About twenty feet
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > from the
                    > entrance begins a lake, the water of which is transparent, and extends
                    > to an unsearchable distance; for the darkness of the cave prevents all
                    > attempts to acquire a knowledge of it. I threw a small pebble towards
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > the
                    > interior parts of it with my utmost strength. I could hear that it fell into the
                    > water, and notwithstanding it was of so small a size, it caused an astonishing
                    > and horrible noise that reverberated through all those gloomy
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > regions.
                    > I found in this cave many Indian hieroglyphics, which appeared very
                    > ancient, for time had nearly covered them with moss, so that it was with
                    > difficulty I could trace them. They were cut in a rude manner upon the
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > inside of
                    > the walls, which were composed of a stone so extremely soft that it might
                    > be easily penetrated with a knife: a stone everywhere to be found near the Mississippi. This cave is only accessible by
                    > ascending a narrow,
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > steep
                    > passage that lies near the brink of the river. At a little distance from this
                    > dreary cavern is the burying-place of several bands of the Naudowessie
                    > (Dakota) Indians." Many years ago the roof fell in, but the cave has
                    > been partially restored and is now used as a beer cellar."
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > LECTURE
                    > ON THE ABORIGINES OF Newfoundland,     Delivered before the Mechanics Institute,
                    > at St.John's, on Monday, 17th January, BY THE HON. JOSEPH NOAD,  Surveyor-General. ST. JOHN'S, NEWFOUNDLAND:   R.J. PARSONS, PRINTER.1859.
                    >
                  • Vincent Barrows
                    The Omaha Tribe was forced west to Nebraska upon European invasion, however, roots in Iowa and possibly Illinois may be determined through the following
                    Message 9 of 26 , Nov 9, 2008
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                      The Omaha Tribe was forced west to Nebraska upon European invasion, however, roots in Iowa and possibly Illinois may be determined through the following materials.

                      The tree tablet from Scott County, Iowa is suggested to depict the Omaha tribal rites, as conveyed in the following article:

                      "The Omaha tribe was made up of ten

                      distinct groups, each one having its own name, a set of names for those

                      born within the group, and certain religious symbols and ceremonies

                      committed to its care. By tribal rites and regulations these ten distinct

                      groups were welded together to form the tribe, whose strength and

                      prosperity depended upon internal harmony and unity.

                       

                      The He-de Wa-chi taught the people what this unity really stood for. The

                      central object of the ceremony was a tree, which was the symbol of the

                      tribe; its branches were as the different groups composing the tribe, the

                      twigs that made up the branches were as the individuals that formed the

                      groups.

                       

                      The Omaha had special ceremonies for the preparation of the central object.

                      They cut a tree, left a tuft of branches at the top and painted the trunk

                      in alternate bands of red and black. The red bands represented day, the

                      black, night; the decoration as a whole stood for the continuity of life.

                      This pole was planted in a broad open space. As the melodious Call to the

                      Ceremony echoed over the land, the people gathered from their tents. Each

                      one of the ten groups took its respective place and all the groups formed a

                      wide circle about the tree. Every one, down to the little children, carried

                      a twig with leaves. These they held aloft as they made their rhythmic,

                      ceremonial approaches to the tree, and afterward danced about the sacred

                      symbol." Fletcher, Alice. Indian Games and Dances with Native Songs Arranged

                      from American Indian Cereminials and Sports. Peabody Museum, Harvard University. 1915


                      Here is a depiction of the engraved stone.


                      Any comments are welcome.

                      Thanks

                      Vince Barrows


                    • Vince
                      The bannerstones decrease your distance with the Atl-Atl. Take a look at the First-contact 1590 drawings by John White that show readings being taken for an
                      Message 10 of 26 , Dec 1, 2009
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                        The bannerstones decrease your distance with the Atl-Atl.

                        Take a look at the First-contact 1590 drawings by John White that show readings being taken for an O'clock position:
                        http://www.learnnc.org/lp/media/uploads/2007/08/pict_neighbor.jpg

                        Notice the same angle of the spear held by all four natives in this photo. The sphere at the base of the spear was used as a pivot.

                        Could the Cross-like object atop the spear in the drawing in earlier times have been the "bannerstone". From 1915, Grinnell stated in Blackfeet Indian Storiesindicate the lock of buffalo hair was attached to a butterfly shaped object that was set atop the lodge poles, as follows:
                        "At the back of the lodge, high up, just below the place where the lodge poles cross, was often a large round disk representing the sun, and above that a cross, which was the sign of the butterfly, the power that they believe brings sleep. From the ends of the wings, or tied to the tips of the poles which supported them, hung buffalo tails, and sometimes running down from one of these poles to the ground near the door was a string of the sheaths of buffalo hooflets, which rattled as it swung to and fro in the breeze."

                        Similar set-up is shown on the Wilmington, Ohio Bannerstone.
                      • Vincent Barrows
                        Hi Judi; Later, Natives were said to have no body or facial hair. I dont know if this early 1590 engraving was typical. The yatagan or Turkish sword also
                        Message 11 of 26 , Dec 1, 2009
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                          Hi Judi;
                          Later, Natives were said to have no body or facial hair. I dont know if this early 1590 engraving was typical. The yatagan or Turkish sword also appears in several of the drawings. The strand of hair, possibly buffalo fur hanging from the spear at the cross is of interest as well as the spherical object at its base.
                           
                          What
                          Regards;
                          Vince
                           


                          --- On Tue, 12/1/09, leeannmclaughlin <leeannm@...> wrote:

                          From: leeannmclaughlin <leeannm@...>
                          Subject: Re: Wilmington Ohio Relics update
                          To: "Vince" <v_barrows@...>
                          Date: Tuesday, December 1, 2009, 2:28 PM

                          Vince,

                          Is that a non typical mustache on this man's face?

                          Judi

                          --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Vince" <v_barrows@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > The bannerstones decrease your distance with the Atl-Atl.
                          >
                          > Take a look at the First-contact 1590 drawings by John White that show readings being taken for an O'clock position:
                          > http://www.learnnc.org/lp/media/uploads/2007/08/pict_neighbor.jpg
                          >
                          > Notice the same angle of the spear held by all four natives in this photo. The sphere at the base of the spear was used as a pivot.
                          >
                          > Could the Cross-like object atop the spear in the drawing in earlier times have been the "bannerstone". From 1915, Grinnell stated in Blackfeet Indian Storiesindicate the lock of buffalo hair was attached to a butterfly shaped object that was set atop the lodge poles, as follows:
                          > "At the back of the lodge, high up, just below the place where the lodge poles cross, was often a large round disk representing the sun, and above that a cross, which was the sign of the butterfly, the power that they believe brings sleep. From the ends of the wings, or tied to the tips of the poles which supported them, hung buffalo tails, and sometimes running down from one of these poles to the ground near the door was a string of the sheaths of buffalo hooflets, which rattled as it swung to and fro in the breeze."
                          >
                          > Similar set-up is shown on the Wilmington, Ohio Bannerstone.
                          >



                        • Ted Sojka
                          Vince These engravings, like the one in the picture of the spear, were often done by artists in Europe with only second hand information. Check out the
                          Message 12 of 26 , Dec 1, 2009
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                            Vince

                            These engravings, like the one in the picture of the spear,  were often done by artists in Europe with only second hand information.  Check out the Rhinoceros wood block print of Albrecht Durer sometime.   

                            Some of the early village engravings done by the English of the native cities around Roanoake don't look like they were done by eye witnesses.  
                            Ted
                            That is a pretty sizable fleet on the bay or horizon.    
                            On Dec 1, 2009, at 1:43 PM, Vincent Barrows wrote:


                            Hi Judi;
                            Later, Natives were said to have no body or facial hair. I dont know if this early 1590 engraving was typical. The yatagan or Turkish sword also appears in several of the drawings. The strand of hair, possibly buffalo fur hanging from the spear at the cross is of interest as well as the spherical object at its base.
                             
                            What
                            Regards;
                            Vince
                             


                            --- On Tue, 12/1/09, leeannmclaughlin <leeannm@iengi. com> wrote:

                            From: leeannmclaughlin <leeannm@iengi. com>
                            Subject: Re: Wilmington Ohio Relics update
                            To: "Vince" <v_barrows@yahoo. com>
                            Date: Tuesday, December 1, 2009, 2:28 PM

                            Vince,

                            Is that a non typical mustache on this man's face?

                            Judi

                            --- In ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com, "Vince" <v_barrows@.. .> wrote:
                            >
                            > The bannerstones decrease your distance with the Atl-Atl.
                            >
                            > Take a look at the First-contact 1590 drawings by John White that show readings being taken for an O'clock position:
                            > http://www.learnnc. org/lp/media/ uploads/2007/ 08/pict_neighbor .jpg
                            >
                            > Notice the same angle of the spear held by all four natives in this photo. The sphere at the base of the spear was used as a pivot.
                            >
                            > Could the Cross-like object atop the spear in the drawing in earlier times have been the "bannerstone" . From 1915, Grinnell stated in Blackfeet Indian Storiesindicate the lock of buffalo hair was attached to a butterfly shaped object that was set atop the lodge poles, as follows:
                            > "At the back of the lodge, high up, just below the place where the lodge poles cross, was often a large round disk representing the sun, and above that a cross, which was the sign of the butterfly, the power that they believe brings sleep. From the ends of the wings, or tied to the tips of the poles which supported them, hung buffalo tails, and sometimes running down from one of these poles to the ground near the door was a string of the sheaths of buffalo hooflets, which rattled as it swung to and fro in the breeze."
                            >
                            > Similar set-up is shown on the Wilmington, Ohio Bannerstone.
                            >





                          • Vincent Barrows
                            Here is some information I could find about it.   In 1585 White, an artist and cartographer, accompanied the voyage from England to the Outer Banks of North
                            Message 13 of 26 , Dec 1, 2009
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                              Here is some information I could find about it.
                               
                              In 1585 White, an artist and cartographer, accompanied the voyage from England to the Outer Banks of North Carolina under a plan of Sir Walter Raleigh to settle "Virginia." White was at Roanoke Island for about thirteen months before returning to England for more supplies. During this period he made a series of over seventy watercolor drawings of indigenous people, plants, and animals. The purpose of his drawings was to give those back home an accurate idea of the inhabitants and environment in the New World. Despite their extraordinary significance, the watercolors were not published until the twentieth century. In 1590, Theodor De Bry made engravings from White's drawings to be printed in Thomas Hariot's account of the journey. Hariot, a mathematician, had also been part of the 1585 voyage. In his engravings, De Bry took certain liberties with White's images, and including them together here gives students and teachers everywhere the opportunity to use this material as a pedagogical resource on English views of native people. Additionally, linked to the images are the detailed and learned annotations of Paul Hulton and David Beers Quinn from The American Drawings of John White 1577-1590, courtesy The University of North Carolina Press.

                              --- On Tue, 12/1/09, Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...> wrote:

                              From: Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...>
                              Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Wilmington Ohio Relics update
                              To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                              Date: Tuesday, December 1, 2009, 4:03 PM

                               
                              Vince

                              These engravings, like the one in the picture of the spear,  were often done by artists in Europe with only second hand information.  Check out the Rhinoceros wood block print of Albrecht Durer sometime.   

                              Some of the early village engravings done by the English of the native cities around Roanoake don't look like they were done by eye witnesses.  
                              Ted
                              That is a pretty sizable fleet on the bay or horizon.    
                              On Dec 1, 2009, at 1:43 PM, Vincent Barrows wrote:


                              Hi Judi;
                              Later, Natives were said to have no body or facial hair. I dont know if this early 1590 engraving was typical. The yatagan or Turkish sword also appears in several of the drawings. The strand of hair, possibly buffalo fur hanging from the spear at the cross is of interest as well as the spherical object at its base.
                               
                              What
                              Regards;
                              Vince
                               


                              --- On Tue, 12/1/09, leeannmclaughlin <leeannm@iengi. com> wrote:

                              From: leeannmclaughlin <leeannm@iengi. com>
                              Subject: Re: Wilmington Ohio Relics update
                              To: "Vince" <v_barrows@yahoo. com>
                              Date: Tuesday, December 1, 2009, 2:28 PM

                              Vince,

                              Is that a non typical mustache on this man's face?

                              Judi

                              --- In ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com, "Vince" <v_barrows@.. .> wrote:
                              >
                              > The bannerstones decrease your distance with the Atl-Atl.
                              >
                              > Take a look at the First-contact 1590 drawings by John White that show readings being taken for an O'clock position:
                              > http://www.learnnc. org/lp/media/ uploads/2007/ 08/pict_neighbor .jpg
                              >
                              > Notice the same angle of the spear held by all four natives in this photo. The sphere at the base of the spear was used as a pivot.
                              >
                              > Could the Cross-like object atop the spear in the drawing in earlier times have been the "bannerstone" . From 1915, Grinnell stated in Blackfeet Indian Storiesindicate the lock of buffalo hair was attached to a butterfly shaped object that was set atop the lodge poles, as follows:
                              > "At the back of the lodge, high up, just below the place where the lodge poles cross, was often a large round disk representing the sun, and above that a cross, which was the sign of the butterfly, the power that they believe brings sleep. From the ends of the wings, or tied to the tips of the poles which supported them, hung buffalo tails, and sometimes running down from one of these poles to the ground near the door was a string of the sheaths of buffalo hooflets, which rattled as it swung to and fro in the breeze."
                              >
                              > Similar set-up is shown on the Wilmington, Ohio Bannerstone.
                              >






                            • Ted Sojka
                              Doctor Barrows, you know how to find things. I have seen these in books like 1491 and Zinn s history. Never saw them so you could compare them. Being a
                              Message 14 of 26 , Dec 1, 2009
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                                "Doctor" Barrows, you know how to find things.   I have seen these in books like 1491 and Zinn's history.   Never saw them so you could compare them.  Being a print maker, I know that certain things won't translate into a print from a painting or watercolor sketch.  They do seem to create a good view of life in the soon to be colonies.   The native with the mustache and sword do not seem right, but it may be a war club that is translated wrong.   Could he have been a native mix person from some earlier sailor union with natives?   The kind of adventurers in the early times did not want to give away secrets of what was where, and I am sure there were many unrecorded meetings in the years before settlement.

                                Thanks for sharing this information.

                                This is a great site.
                                On Dec 1, 2009, at 4:43 PM, Vincent Barrows wrote:


                                Here is some information I could find about it.
                                 
                                In 1585 White, an artist and cartographer, accompanied the voyage from England to the Outer Banks of North Carolina under a plan of Sir Walter Raleigh to settle "Virginia." White was at Roanoke Island for about thirteen months before returning to England for more supplies. During this period he made a series of over seventy watercolor drawings of indigenous people, plants, and animals. The purpose of his drawings was to give those back home an accurate idea of the inhabitants and environment in the New World. Despite their extraordinary significance, the watercolors were not published until the twentieth century. In 1590, Theodor De Bry made engravings from White's drawings to be printed in Thomas Hariot's account of the journey. Hariot, a mathematician, had also been part of the 1585 voyage. In his engravings, De Bry took certain liberties with White's images, and including them together here gives students and teachers everywhere the opportunity to use this material as a pedagogical resource on English views of native people. Additionally, linked to the images are the detailed and learned annotations of Paul Hulton and David Beers Quinn from The American Drawings of John White 1577-1590, courtesy The University of North Carolina Press.

                                --- On Tue, 12/1/09, Ted Sojka <tedsojka@mchsi. com> wrote:

                                From: Ted Sojka <tedsojka@mchsi. com>
                                Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_ society] Re: Wilmington Ohio Relics update
                                To: ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com
                                Date: Tuesday, December 1, 2009, 4:03 PM

                                 
                                Vince

                                These engravings, like the one in the picture of the spear,  were often done by artists in Europe with only second hand information.  Check out the Rhinoceros wood block print of Albrecht Durer sometime.   

                                Some of the early village engravings done by the English of the native cities around Roanoake don't look like they were done by eye witnesses.  
                                Ted
                                That is a pretty sizable fleet on the bay or horizon.    
                                On Dec 1, 2009, at 1:43 PM, Vincent Barrows wrote:


                                Hi Judi;
                                Later, Natives were said to have no body or facial hair. I dont know if this early 1590 engraving was typical. The yatagan or Turkish sword also appears in several of the drawings. The strand of hair, possibly buffalo fur hanging from the spear at the cross is of interest as well as the spherical object at its base.
                                 
                                What
                                Regards;
                                Vince
                                 


                                --- On Tue, 12/1/09, leeannmclaughlin <leeannm@iengi. com> wrote:

                                From: leeannmclaughlin <leeannm@iengi. com>
                                Subject: Re: Wilmington Ohio Relics update
                                To: "Vince" <v_barrows@yahoo. com>
                                Date: Tuesday, December 1, 2009, 2:28 PM

                                Vince,

                                Is that a non typical mustache on this man's face?

                                Judi

                                --- In ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com, "Vince" <v_barrows@.. .> wrote:
                                >
                                > The bannerstones decrease your distance with the Atl-Atl.
                                >
                                > Take a look at the First-contact 1590 drawings by John White that show readings being taken for an O'clock position:
                                > http://www.learnnc. org/lp/media/ uploads/2007/ 08/pict_neighbor .jpg
                                >
                                > Notice the same angle of the spear held by all four natives in this photo. The sphere at the base of the spear was used as a pivot.
                                >
                                > Could the Cross-like object atop the spear in the drawing in earlier times have been the "bannerstone" . From 1915, Grinnell stated in Blackfeet Indian Storiesindicate the lock of buffalo hair was attached to a butterfly shaped object that was set atop the lodge poles, as follows:
                                > "At the back of the lodge, high up, just below the place where the lodge poles cross, was often a large round disk representing the sun, and above that a cross, which was the sign of the butterfly, the power that they believe brings sleep. From the ends of the wings, or tied to the tips of the poles which supported them, hung buffalo tails, and sometimes running down from one of these poles to the ground near the door was a string of the sheaths of buffalo hooflets, which rattled as it swung to and fro in the breeze."
                                >
                                > Similar set-up is shown on the Wilmington, Ohio Bannerstone.
                                >








                              • Chris Patenaude
                                I m so backlogged, i m hopping in the middle of this thread without context. So pardon the obvious dummy question... The URL says Pict. as in Scottish
                                Message 15 of 26 , Dec 3, 2009
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                                  I'm so backlogged, i'm hopping in the middle of this thread without context. So pardon the obvious 'dummy' question...
                                  The URL says Pict. as in Scottish warrior.
                                  I'm confused as to why this is being called a Native American?...
                                  -c

                                  --- On Tue, 12/1/09, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...> wrote:

                                  From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
                                  Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Wilmington Ohio Relics update
                                  To: "leeannmclaughlin" <leeannm@...>, ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Tuesday, December 1, 2009, 1:43 PM



                                  Hi Judi;
                                  Later, Natives were said to have no body or facial hair. I dont know if this early 1590 engraving was typical. The yatagan or Turkish sword also appears in several of the drawings. The strand of hair, possibly buffalo fur hanging from the spear at the cross is of interest as well as the spherical object at its base.
                                   
                                  What
                                  Regards;
                                  Vince
                                   


                                  --- On Tue, 12/1/09, leeannmclaughlin <leeannm@...> wrote:

                                  From: leeannmclaughlin <leeannm@...>
                                  Subject: Re: Wilmington Ohio Relics update
                                  To: "Vince" <v_barrows@...>
                                  Date: Tuesday, December 1, 2009, 2:28 PM

                                  Vince,

                                  Is that a non typical mustache on this man's face?

                                  Judi

                                  --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Vince" <v_barrows@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > The bannerstones decrease your distance with the Atl-Atl.
                                  >
                                  > Take a look at the First-contact 1590 drawings by John White that show readings being taken for an O'clock position:
                                  > http://www.learnnc.org/lp/media/uploads/2007/08/pict_neighbor.jpg
                                  >
                                  > Notice the same angle of the spear held by all four natives in this photo. The sphere at the base of the spear was used as a pivot.
                                  >
                                  > Could the Cross-like object atop the spear in the drawing in earlier times have been the "bannerstone". From 1915, Grinnell stated in Blackfeet Indian Storiesindicate the lock of buffalo hair was attached to a butterfly shaped object that was set atop the lodge poles, as follows:
                                  > "At the back of the lodge, high up, just below the place where the lodge poles cross, was often a large round disk representing the sun, and above that a cross, which was the sign of the butterfly, the power that they believe brings sleep. From the ends of the wings, or tied to the tips of the poles which supported them, hung buffalo tails, and sometimes running down from one of these poles to the ground near the door was a string of the sheaths of buffalo hooflets, which rattled as it swung to and fro in the breeze."
                                  >
                                  > Similar set-up is shown on the Wilmington, Ohio Bannerstone.
                                  >






                                • Vincent Barrows
                                  Chris, it s a good question. Depicted in John White s volume at the end of the other Jamestown Virginia drawings was a set of Picts , meaning Pictish. They
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Dec 5, 2009
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                                    Chris,
                                    it's a good question. Depicted in John White's volume at the end of the other Jamestown Virginia drawings was a set of "Picts", meaning Pictish. They were added, Possibly by le moyne.
                                    Even though they were Pictish I have noticed a similarity to the object at the spear with the "bannerstone".

                                    Vince

                                    --- On Fri, 12/4/09, Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...> wrote:

                                    > From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
                                    > Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Wilmington Ohio Relics update
                                    > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                                    > Date: Friday, December 4, 2009, 1:59 AM
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >  
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > I'm so backlogged, i'm
                                    > hopping in the middle of this thread without context. So
                                    > pardon the obvious 'dummy' question...
                                    > The URL says Pict. as in Scottish warrior.
                                    > I'm confused as to why this is being called a
                                    > Native American?...
                                    > -c
                                    >
                                    > --- On Tue, 12/1/09, Vincent Barrows
                                    > <v_barrows@yahoo. com> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@yahoo. com>
                                    > Subject: [ancient_waterways_ society] Re: Wilmington Ohio
                                    > Relics update
                                    > To: "leeannmclaughlin" <leeannm@iengi.
                                    > com>, ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com
                                    > Date: Tuesday, December 1, 2009, 1:43 PM
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Hi Judi;
                                    > Later, Natives were said to have no body or
                                    > facial hair. I dont know if this early 1590
                                    > engraving was typical. The yatagan or Turkish
                                    > sword also appears in several of the drawings. The
                                    > strand of hair, possibly buffalo fur hanging from the spear
                                    > at the cross is of interest as well as the spherical object
                                    > at its base.
                                    >  
                                    > What
                                    > Regards;
                                    > Vince
                                    >  
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- On Tue, 12/1/09, leeannmclaughlin
                                    > <leeannm@iengi. com> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > From: leeannmclaughlin <leeannm@iengi. com>
                                    > Subject: Re: Wilmington Ohio Relics update
                                    > To: "Vince" <v_barrows@yahoo. com>
                                    > Date: Tuesday, December 1, 2009, 2:28 PM
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Vince,
                                    >
                                    > Is that a non typical mustache on this man's face?
                                    >
                                    > Judi
                                    >
                                    > --- In ancient_waterways_
                                    > society@yahoogro ups.com, "Vince"
                                    > <v_barrows@.. .> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > The bannerstones decrease your distance with the
                                    > Atl-Atl.
                                    > >
                                    > > Take a look at the First-contact 1590 drawings by John
                                    > White that show readings being taken for an O'clock
                                    > position:
                                    > > http://www.learnnc
                                    > org/lp/media/ uploads/2007/ 08/pict_neighbor .jpg
                                    > >
                                    > > Notice the same angle of the spear held by all four
                                    > natives in this photo. The sphere at the base of the spear
                                    > was used as a pivot.
                                    > >
                                    > > Could the Cross-like object atop the spear in the
                                    > drawing in earlier times have been the
                                    > "bannerstone" . From 1915, Grinnell stated in
                                    > Blackfeet Indian Storiesindicate the lock of buffalo hair
                                    > was attached to a butterfly shaped object that was set atop
                                    > the lodge poles, as follows:
                                    > > "At the back of the lodge, high up, just below
                                    > the place where the lodge poles cross, was often a large
                                    > round disk representing the sun, and above that a cross,
                                    > which was the sign of the butterfly, the power that they
                                    > believe brings sleep. From the ends of the wings, or tied to
                                    > the tips of the poles which supported them, hung buffalo
                                    > tails, and sometimes running down from one of these poles to
                                    > the ground near the door was a string of the sheaths of
                                    > buffalo hooflets, which rattled as it swung to and fro in
                                    > the breeze."
                                    > >
                                    > > Similar set-up is shown on the Wilmington, Ohio
                                    > Bannerstone.
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • Chris Patenaude
                                    imho... perhaps the similarities behest Old World contact with Nat. Amn s?  What if the style was brought back to the Scottish side as a graceful, yet
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Dec 9, 2009
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                                      imho... perhaps the similarities behest Old World contact with Nat. Amn's?  What if the style was brought back to the Scottish side as a graceful, yet pragmatic fashion just as i now cook regularly with chopsticks in my own kitchen, enjoy wearing Mu-mu's to relax, drive a car with an American trademark but Asian parts, and like to read up on Chinese IChing to compare philosophy. When we find something fresh, new and 'neat', we as humans tend to find our own way to use it in our own context. What if the engravings were included to show that there were definite, perhaps even surprising parallels between what was known in Scotland and this new land?
                                      -c
                                      --- On Sat, 12/5/09, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...> wrote:

                                      From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
                                      Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Wilmington Ohio Relics update
                                      To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                                      Date: Saturday, December 5, 2009, 10:09 PM

                                      Chris,
                                      it's a good question. Depicted in John White's volume at the end of the other Jamestown Virginia drawings was a set of "Picts", meaning Pictish. They were added, Possibly by le moyne.
                                      Even though they were Pictish I have noticed a similarity to the object at the spear with the "bannerstone".

                                      Vince

                                      --- On Fri, 12/4/09, Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...> wrote:

                                      > From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
                                      > Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Wilmington Ohio Relics update
                                      > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Date: Friday, December 4, 2009, 1:59 AM
                                        
                                      >       I'm so backlogged, i'm
                                      > hopping in the middle of this thread without context. So
                                      > pardon the obvious 'dummy' question...
                                      > The URL says Pict. as in Scottish warrior.
                                      > I'm confused as to why this is being called a
                                      > Native American?...
                                      > -c
                                      >
                                      > --- On Tue, 12/1/09, Vincent Barrows
                                      > <v_barrows@yahoo. com> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@yahoo. com>
                                      > Subject: [ancient_waterways_ society] Re: Wilmington Ohio
                                      > Relics update
                                      > To: "leeannmclaughlin" <leeannm@iengi.
                                      > com>, ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com
                                      > Date: Tuesday, December 1, 2009, 1:43 PM
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Hi Judi;
                                      > Later, Natives were said to have no body or
                                      > facial hair. I dont know if this early 1590
                                      > engraving was typical. The yatagan or Turkish
                                      > sword also appears in several of the drawings. The
                                      > strand of hair, possibly buffalo fur hanging from the spear
                                      > at the cross is of interest as well as the spherical object
                                      > at its base.
                                      >  
                                      > What
                                      > Regards;
                                      > Vince
                                      >  
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- On Tue, 12/1/09, leeannmclaughlin
                                      > <leeannm@iengi. com> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > From: leeannmclaughlin <leeannm@iengi. com>
                                      > Subject: Re: Wilmington Ohio Relics update
                                      > To: "Vince" <v_barrows@yahoo. com>
                                      > Date: Tuesday, December 1, 2009, 2:28 PM
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > Vince,
                                      >
                                      > Is that a non typical mustache on this man's face?
                                      >
                                      > Judi
                                      >
                                      > --- In ancient_waterways_
                                      > society@yahoogro ups.com, "Vince"
                                      > <v_barrows@.. .> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > The bannerstones decrease your distance with the
                                      > Atl-Atl.
                                      > >
                                      > > Take a look at the First-contact 1590 drawings by John
                                      > White that show readings being taken for an O'clock
                                      > position:
                                      > > http://www.learnnc.
                                      > org/lp/media/ uploads/2007/ 08/pict_neighbor .jpg
                                      > >
                                      > > Notice the same angle of the spear held by all four
                                      > natives in this photo. The sphere at the base of the spear
                                      > was used as a pivot.
                                      > >
                                      > > Could the Cross-like object atop the spear in the
                                      > drawing in earlier times have been the
                                      >  "bannerstone" . From 1915, Grinnell stated in
                                      > Blackfeet Indian Storiesindicate the lock of buffalo hair
                                      > was attached to a butterfly shaped object that was set atop
                                      > the lodge poles, as follows:
                                      > > "At the back of the lodge, high up, just below
                                      > the place where the lodge poles cross, was often a large
                                      > round disk representing the sun, and above that a cross,
                                      > which was the sign of the butterfly, the power that they
                                      > believe brings sleep. From the ends of the wings, or tied to
                                      > the tips of the poles which supported them, hung buffalo
                                      > tails, and sometimes running down from one of these poles to
                                      > the ground near the door was a string of the sheaths of
                                      > buffalo hooflets, which rattled as it swung to and fro in
                                      > the breeze."
                                      > >
                                      > > Similar set-up is shown on the Wilmington, Ohio
                                      > Bannerstone.
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >       
                                      >
                                      >     
                                      >     
                                      >
                                      >     
                                      >     
                                      >
                                      >

                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >   
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >


                                           


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                                    • v_barrows
                                      Here is an article that shows the actual Welch Butterfly bannerstone photographed. Just learned from this article that the slate bannerstone was made of
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Jan 9
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                                        Here is an article that shows the actual Welch Butterfly bannerstone photographed. Just learned from this article that the slate bannerstone was made of purplish color slate and is in the ohio historical museum.https://kb.osu.edu/dspace/bitstream/handle/1811/56002/OHIO_ARCHAEOLOGIST_11_2_APRIL_1961.pdf?sequence=1
                                      • trayloroo
                                        GREAT .... enjoyed it .... After the Burrows Cave experience, are we still certain this purple stone is a fake, page 64. CAL
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Jan 10
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                                          GREAT .... enjoyed it ....  After the Burrows Cave experience, are we still certain this purple stone is a fake, page 64.

                                           

                                          CAL 

                                        • v_barrows
                                          IMO, it s real as the the four winds. Very rare and important too. Dr. Hill of Concinatti and Warren Moorehead also agreed that it is authentic.
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Jan 10
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                                            IMO, it's real as the the four winds. Very rare and important too. Dr. Hill of Concinatti and Warren Moorehead also agreed that it is authentic.
                                          • v_barrows
                                            Here is a link to photobucket showing more photos of the welch butterfly and Richardson tablet:
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Jan 10
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                                              Here is a link to photobucket showing more photos of the welch butterfly and Richardson tablet:http://s243.photobucket.com/user/Marburg72/library/KOREA/Dads_retirement_party/PETROGLYPHS/Wilmington
                                            • wmsmithrock1
                                              Thanks for the link Vince. What is your opinion on the Welch butterfly symbols? and the 20 boxes shown in The Richardson tablets?
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Jan 10
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                                                Thanks for the link Vince. What is your opinion on the Welch butterfly symbols? and the 20 boxes shown in The Richardson tablets?

                                              • Vincent Barrows
                                                William I'm not qualified to translate it, since I'm just an engineer. However I saw some similarities to Mayan glyphs which are visibly evident. This
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Jan 10
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                                                  William
                                                  I'm not qualified to translate it, since I'm just an engineer. However I saw some similarities to Mayan glyphs which are visibly evident. This was summarized in the white paper that I sent you after the Wilmington conference 2008.
                                                  Respectfully
                                                  Vince


                                                  From: wmsmithrock1@... <wmsmithrock1@...>;
                                                  To: <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>;
                                                  Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] RE: South Carolina shipping maps
                                                  Sent: Fri, Jan 10, 2014 3:07:30 PM

                                                   

                                                  Thanks for the link Vince. What is your opinion on the Welch butterfly symbols? and the 20 boxes shown in The Richardson tablets?

                                                • Chris Patenaude
                                                  Atlatl hunting as stealth technology ... One of my favorite pages to return to off-n-on. -cp On Friday, January 10, 2014 7:22 AM, v_barrows@yahoo.com
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Jan 13
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                                                    Atlatl hunting as "stealth" technology
                                                    >   http://www.hollowtop.com/spt_html/atlstealth.htm   <

                                                    One of my favorite pages to return to off-n-on.
                                                    -cp



                                                    On Friday, January 10, 2014 7:22 AM, "v_barrows@..." <v_barrows@...> wrote:


                                                    Here is a link to photobucket showing more photos of the welch butterfly and Richardson tablet:http://s243.photobucket.com/user/Marburg72/library/KOREA/Dads_retirement_party/PETROGLYPHS/Wilmington




                                                  • Karla Akins
                                                    It certainly appears authentic. Can you point me to information regarding the inscription? Is there an interpretation? And are you of the opinion they are
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , Jan 13
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                                                      It certainly appears authentic. Can you point me to information regarding the inscription? Is there an interpretation? And are you of the opinion they are Welsh--because it seems oriental to me somehow.


                                                      On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 9:29 PM, Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...> wrote:
                                                       

                                                      Atlatl hunting as "stealth" technology
                                                      >   http://www.hollowtop.com/spt_html/atlstealth.htm   <

                                                      One of my favorite pages to return to off-n-on.
                                                      -cp




                                                      On Friday, January 10, 2014 7:22 AM, "v_barrows@..." <v_barrows@...> wrote:


                                                      Here is a link to photobucket showing more photos of the welch butterfly and Richardson tablet:http://s243.photobucket.com/user/Marburg72/library/KOREA/Dads_retirement_party/PETROGLYPHS/Wilmington





                                                    • v_barrows
                                                      Here is a link to some information on the inscription: http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/arqueologia/monks_mound05.htm It s not Welch, just found by someone
                                                      Message 26 of 26 , Jan 13
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                                                        Here is a link to some information on the inscription: http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/arqueologia/monks_mound05.htmIt's not Welch, just found by someone with that last name. Yes, I concur that it appears to have some similarity to Asian symbolism such as the yin-yang in the center. Still, I think it is Native American origin.
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