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Faces from the past: Spindle wheel

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  • Chris Patenaude
    OK.... i ve been lookin at it more closely and realized there are 5 faces, not 4. Negates winds , Directional influences, sky constellations etc. I am leaning
    Message 1 of 4 , Oct 2, 2008
    • 0 Attachment
      OK.... i've been lookin at it more closely and realized there are 5 faces, not 4. Negates 'winds', Directional influences, sky constellations etc.
      I am leaning more strongly towards it being a documentation by a local Native of exotic visitors, traders, contactees from circa 900-1280 CE.

      Pulling apart the elements, we have just-prior to and early Islamic, Silk-Road region helmets as catagorized by many websites. A few prime are listed here to prove the point.

      The most detailed example on the spindle stone is a spiked "Shishak" style with draping maile and side cheek protectors.
      > http://www.geocities.com/normlaw/page13b.html <
      > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505/page13.html <

      See Attached "Picture1273" and "Picture1273 Traced".

      Of the other four faces, two are pictured completely with close-domed "round" helmets with their wrap-around turbans. They knot at the back of the head and the scarf-ends are tucked under the wrap-band to drape past the ear and shade the neck. (See corroborating photo attached, "Body Armor" lifted from
      > http://www.sfusd.k12.ca.us/schwww/sch618/War/WarArmor.html < )

      Of the other two faces, one may actually be an attempt to depict a faceshield... there is no eye-dot to enliven or inhabit the shape. It is shown without a crown, just an empty eyehole and stripes as if indicating plates, not skin. The fifth head seems to be bare except for a hairline or underscarf, ie the person with helmet taken off. The artist is trying to say look, this is covering their faces! They are men, not gods.

      The four "live" heads have eyes that are outlined as purposely diamond or 'cut out' as if they are peering thru eye-holes of a faceplate or noseguards. The artist is fully able to create a smooth arc if (s)he so pleased, there are gliding arc-strokes all over the forms. If (s)he wanted to show the eyes normal, it would have been done. Something is wierd, and spooky about the eyes peering out from behind something, and the artist portrayed that quite well.

      To confirm this, two forms (one turbaned and the bare-headed one) have a distinct line coming from the bridge of the nose to the corners of the mouth, indicating a mask-shield that opens up for the mouth & lips. The other turbaned fellow has a line straight back from the eye, as if to show the mask was tied onto his face.

      Explore these other sites to see further examples of this Old World style of head-gear from the indicated timeframe. From the book titled "Medieval Russian Armies 1250-1500" (V.Shapkovsky & David Nicolle)it reminds us "After disasterous defeats at the hands of the Mongols in the 13th century, the Russian princepalities became vassels of the Khans of the Golden Horde for more than 200 years." The armies of Southern Russia, bordering and including the Silk Road routes (in the fashion of the Romans before them) adopted their Persian, Middle Eastern and Islamic neighbors' helmet and armor styles. Lighter and more functional in the warmer climates than the Euro full-body suits.

      > http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Image:Helmet_Turkmenistan_Louvre_K3443.jpg <

      > http://books.google.com/books?id=00w3jXgmY1wC&pg=PA19&lpg=PA19&dq=ancient+helmets+Islamic&source=web&ots=_r5F1fQP8m&sig=wTdTz6ZuvMbtKCXOgoCu2zkwCMI&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=6&ct=result#PPA19,M1 <

      > http://www.alshindagah.com/marapr2006/islamic.html <

      > http://members.ozemail.com.au/~chrisandpeter/kirpichnikov_helmets/gallery.htm#03_gulbishe <

      > http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Olympus/3505/ <

      So were these visitors to Cahokia country early Persian Islamic pioneers/explorers, Arabics, slightly later Russians, or possibly Chinese (whom the Natives would not have found 'exotic' of face, just costume)? Regardless of the Nationality, the headgear insists they came from the cosmopolitan thorofare called the Silk Road of which many were itinerate explorers, merchants and adventurers in order to seek out market advantages.

      The stone could have been carved early on and passed down thru several generations before being interred with the last owner. Or carved by the person with whom it was buried later on in the Wickliffe history. (950-1350 CE) What more logical place but Cahokia for the Travelers to have found their way? Someone of some skill watched carefully and took their portraits with a talented hand.

      Vince, the subject matter forcludes a dating of BCE. One cannot class an era solely on how deeply the etching was done. Any artisan will feel their material and let it speak to them as to how it best wishes to be handled and worked. You will find light and deep touches in any era, depending on the individual doing the carving and the matrix taking the strokes.

      I would almost suspect a bright, young person put it on a fishing net weight (a weighted fire spindle would be a liability, not an aide to the process) in reaction to seeing special characters on their visit to The Big City. Or even more likely, the sketches were placed on something more prized like a cotton-spinning spindle and kept specially. This does not guarantee the carver's gender, as both men and women spun fiber and wove fabrics, netting, blankets, boltstrips in the Americas.

      The one intriging element is that one turban-helmet fellow (I've traced his scarf in yellow) is saying something. It is placed as a script-line in a balloon between his mouth and the image of the empty face-shield. Dang if it doesn't look like hand-scrawled Kufic. That may mess with my little daydream of the rural youth visiting Town. Unless, as Barry Fell insists, there were Semitic schools in session during those times, and the turbaned dignitaries were resident mentors, teachers, not strangers. Then a Native 'rural' student, male or female, might indeed be taught a few special Letters.

      At that idea, i broke off writing and did some more surfing. YESS!
      See attached Kufic example "BasmAllah". Reading right-to-left, is B-S-M-ALLAH... and what ever else the phrase says. I'm not Muslim, so do not know what generic litany line it may be. However, i've traced the letters (initiate)"A" and the (terminal) "A" in red. The L-L(+connective diacritical loop)in blue.

      Now look at the Picture Traced in the balloon in front of Yellow Head's mouth. ALLAH!

      Now go lay THAT at Smitty Wallace's doorstep and see her deny it! LOL
      -c

      --- On Wed, 10/1/08, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...> wrote:

      From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
      Subject: Re: [thor-thehuntersohiorock] Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Faces from the past : a photo essay
      To: thor-thehuntersohiorock@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Wednesday, October 1, 2008, 8:19 PM


      Yep, that disc/ spindle whirl artifact is from Wickliffe Mounds - on display at their museum. It is similar to other faces from cahokia and also at the east st. louis quarry site. That style of light engraving is archaic (between 7000 and 5000 years ago).
       
      In my opinion the Burrows cave and michigan relics are from a different culture than that which produced the faces on the disc.

      I have never found anything like the relics of burrows cave and so I cannot verify who made them.  I appreciate the work that Beverly Mosely did on photographing the stones - looking at them as art objects and translating the stories that they contain is more interesting to me than perpetuating the "hoax, fraud, fake" story. That line of thought seems to be an effort to say "nothing to see here, move along now".

      My research indicates that the existance of such relics is similar to Kudurrus - border stones from Mesopotamia that date to around 3000 years ago. Another parallel is ancestor stones called Churingas from Australia. One fact is the approx. location of burrows cave is directly east of Cahokia Mounds (aligned with the equinox). Native cultures from around the world did store their ancestral stones in groups, in caves.
       
      my two cents.

      Vince

      --- On Wed, 10/1/08, Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...> wrote:

      From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
      Subject: Re: [thor-thehuntersohiorock] Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Faces from the past : a photo essay
      To: thor-thehuntersohiorock@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Wednesday, October 1, 2008, 6:34 PM









      Vince, answering from Thor's group, says it's from a registered mound and the artifact has definite provenance.
      But yeah. I'm always on the suspicious side of anything that looks like the Burrows "collection" . Until Mays actually proves it exists. They're digging now, i hear. Haven't heard an update for the summer, tho. I'm a bit more isolated up here in MN, away from those projects.
       
      Because of the Michigan Tablets collection, (which i feel has far more legitimacy since the finders came from a wide region of coptic settlement and the script is translateable) i will not write off either collections 'completely' until more dust settles. Denials are just as speculative as claims until proof is shown. In both cases, i will hold the mindset that there were some legit artifacts found. More in the MI Tab's case than Burrows. Copies and frauds were counterfeited in each case, human greed will play itself out. But less so in the MI than Burrows. imo.
       
      Both collections will have mixture of authentic and hoax in the end, i suspect. But it would be foolish to throw the Baby out with the Bathwater without careful tests that mayhap won't evolve in technology until the future. Nuclear Resonancy Spectrometry and Topical Flourescence may hold answers when they are refined better. Time will tell.
      -c

      --- On Wed, 10/1/08, ZHstar@... <ZHstar@...> wrote:

      From: ZHstar@... <ZHstar@...>
      Subject: Re: [thor-thehuntersohi orock] Re: [ancient_waterways_ society] Re: Faces from the past : a photo essay
      To: thor-thehuntersohio rock@yahoogroups .com
      Date: Wednesday, October 1, 2008, 2:10 PM


      Chris-
           That disc looks like something from Burrows Cave!
      Zena


      -----Original Message-----
      From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@ yahoo.com>
      To: ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com
      Cc: thor-thehuntersohio rock@yahoogroups .com
      Sent: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 2:02 am
      Subject: [thor-thehuntersohi orock] Re: [ancient_waterways_ society] Re: Faces from the past : a photo essay











      Yo Vince!
      Where did this disc come from!??
      >   http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/ Faces%20of% 20the%20Past/ ?action=view¤t=Picture1273 .jpg   <
       
      If the link from the Photobucket didn't work, the photo is attached.
       
      Is it Nat American or from the Middle East?
       
      It reminds me so much of the astrolabe-discs William works with. Could these be pictograms of The Four Winds (ie directions) or perhaps drawings of perceived constellations located at the four corners of the sky?
       
      The one has a spiked helmet and desert-travel scarves. The others could as easily be Tuag camel riders with their turbans. Might a Native person be commemorating the appearance of Strange Visitors in their village?
       
      -chris


      --- On Sun, 9/7/08, Susan <beldingenglish@ yahoo.com> wrote:

      From: Susan <beldingenglish@ yahoo.com>
      Subject: [ancient_waterways_ society] Re: Faces from the past : a photo essay
      To: ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com
      Date: Sunday, September 7, 2008, 10:17 PM



      Vince,
      Thanks for sending the link below...I am also inserting the Marburg72 link (not sure what Marburg means) that your Faces of the Past is also connected to. Are all photos within the links from your collection that you are cataloguing along with stone tablets? I clicked onto the photos and did not see specific descriptions, dates, sites where each was found....unless I am not clicking in the right place.
      I wonder if you could you introduce the sites, for the archived posts here and then put them into the Links or photos section, for reference purposes. 
      Thanks again, Vince. 
      http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/ Faces%20of% 20the%20Past/
      http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/

      --- In ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@.. .> wrote:
      >
      > http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/ Faces%20of% 20the%20Past/
      >



      [Image Removed]



      Find phone numbers fast with the New AOL Yellow Pages!
    • Vincent Barrows
      Chris; I appreciate your interpretation and supporting evidence. My interpretation was that the top knots were woodpecker crests - a motif widely used during
      Message 2 of 4 , Oct 2, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        Chris;
        I appreciate your interpretation and supporting evidence.

        My interpretation was that the top knots were woodpecker crests - a motif widely used during the neolithic period.

        The other artifact that I have seen from the East St. Louis quarry Site is attached.

        Please excuse the shortnesss of my message.
        Vince
        .




        --- On Thu, 10/2/08, Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...> wrote:
        From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
        Subject: [thor-thehuntersohiorock] Faces from the past: Spindle wheel
        To: thor-thehuntersohiorock@yahoogroups.com
        Cc: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, epigraphy@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Thursday, October 2, 2008, 7:44 PM

        OK.... i've been lookin at it more closely and realized there are 5 faces, not 4. Negates 'winds', Directional influences, sky constellations etc.
        I am leaning more strongly towards it being a documentation by a local Native of exotic visitors, traders, contactees from circa 900-1280 CE.

        Pulling apart the elements, we have just-prior to and early Islamic, Silk-Road region helmets as catagorized by many websites. A few prime are listed here to prove the point.

        The most detailed example on the spindle stone is a spiked "Shishak" style with draping maile and side cheek protectors.
        > http://www.geocitie s.com/normlaw/ page13b.html <
        > http://www.geocitie s.com/Athens/ Olympus/3505/ page13.html <

        See Attached "Picture1273" and "Picture1273 Traced".

        Of the other four faces, two are pictured completely with close-domed "round" helmets with their wrap-around turbans. They knot at the back of the head and the scarf-ends are tucked under the wrap-band to drape past the ear and shade the neck. (See corroborating photo attached, "Body Armor" lifted from
        > http://www.sfusd. k12.ca.us/ schwww/sch618/ War/WarArmor. html < )

        Of the other two faces, one may actually be an attempt to depict a faceshield.. . there is no eye-dot to enliven or inhabit the shape. It is shown without a crown, just an empty eyehole and stripes as if indicating plates, not skin. The fifth head seems to be bare except for a hairline or underscarf, ie the person with helmet taken off. The artist is trying to say look, this is covering their faces! They are men, not gods.

        The four "live" heads have eyes that are outlined as purposely diamond or 'cut out' as if they are peering thru eye-holes of a faceplate or noseguards. The artist is fully able to create a smooth arc if (s)he so pleased, there are gliding arc-strokes all over the forms. If (s)he wanted to show the eyes normal, it would have been done. Something is wierd, and spooky about the eyes peering out from behind something, and the artist portrayed that quite well.

        To confirm this, two forms (one turbaned and the bare-headed one) have a distinct line coming from the bridge of the nose to the corners of the mouth, indicating a mask-shield that opens up for the mouth & lips. The other turbaned fellow has a line straight back from the eye, as if to show the mask was tied onto his face.

        Explore these other sites to see further examples of this Old World style of head-gear from the indicated timeframe. From the book titled "Medieval Russian Armies 1250-1500" (V.Shapkovsky & David Nicolle)it reminds us "After disasterous defeats at the hands of the Mongols in the 13th century, the Russian princepalities became vassels of the Khans of the Golden Horde for more than 200 years." The armies of Southern Russia, bordering and including the Silk Road routes (in the fashion of the Romans before them) adopted their Persian, Middle Eastern and Islamic neighbors' helmet and armor styles. Lighter and more functional in the warmer climates than the Euro full-body suits.

        > http://commons. wikimedia. org/wiki/ Image:Helmet_ Turkmenistan_ Louvre_K3443. jpg <

        > http://books. google.com/ books?id= 00w3jXgmY1wC& pg=PA19&lpg= PA19&dq=ancient+ helmets+Islamic& source=web& ots=_r5F1fQP8m& sig=wTdTz6ZuvMbt KCXOgoCu2zkwCMI& hl=en&sa= X&oi=book_ result&resnum= 6&ct=result# PPA19,M1 <

        > http://www.alshinda gah.com/marapr20 06/islamic. html <

        > http://members. ozemail.com. au/~chrisandpete r/kirpichnikov_ helmets/gallery. htm#03_gulbishe <

        > http://www.geocitie s.com/Athens/ Olympus/3505/ <

        So were these visitors to Cahokia country early Persian Islamic pioneers/explorers, Arabics, slightly later Russians, or possibly Chinese (whom the Natives would not have found 'exotic' of face, just costume)? Regardless of the Nationality, the headgear insists they came from the cosmopolitan thorofare called the Silk Road of which many were itinerate explorers, merchants and adventurers in order to seek out market advantages.

        The stone could have been carved early on and passed down thru several generations before being interred with the last owner. Or carved by the person with whom it was buried later on in the Wickliffe history. (950-1350 CE) What more logical place but Cahokia for the Travelers to have found their way? Someone of some skill watched carefully and took their portraits with a talented hand.

        Vince, the subject matter forcludes a dating of BCE. One cannot class an era solely on how deeply the etching was done. Any artisan will feel their material and let it speak to them as to how it best wishes to be handled and worked. You will find light and deep touches in any era, depending on the individual doing the carving and the matrix taking the strokes.

        I would almost suspect a bright, young person put it on a fishing net weight (a weighted fire spindle would be a liability, not an aide to the process) in reaction to seeing special characters on their visit to The Big City. Or even more likely, the sketches were placed on something more prized like a cotton-spinning spindle and kept specially. This does not guarantee the carver's gender, as both men and women spun fiber and wove fabrics, netting, blankets, boltstrips in the Americas.

        The one intriging element is that one turban-helmet fellow (I've traced his scarf in yellow) is saying something. It is placed as a script-line in a balloon between his mouth and the image of the empty face-shield. Dang if it doesn't look like hand-scrawled Kufic. That may mess with my little daydream of the rural youth visiting Town. Unless, as Barry Fell insists, there were Semitic schools in session during those times, and the turbaned dignitaries were resident mentors, teachers, not strangers. Then a Native 'rural' student, male or female, might indeed be taught a few special Letters.

        At that idea, i broke off writing and did some more surfing. YESS!
        See attached Kufic example "BasmAllah". Reading right-to-left, is B-S-M-ALLAH. .. and what ever else the phrase says. I'm not Muslim, so do not know what generic litany line it may be. However, i've traced the letters (initiate)"A" and the (terminal) "A" in red. The L-L(+connective diacritical loop)in blue.

        Now look at the Picture Traced in the balloon in front of Yellow Head's mouth. ALLAH!

        Now go lay THAT at Smitty Wallace's doorstep and see her deny it! LOL
        -c

        --- On Wed, 10/1/08, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@yahoo. com> wrote:

        From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@yahoo. com>
        Subject: Re: [thor-thehuntersohi orock] Re: [ancient_waterways_ society] Re: Faces from the past : a photo essay
        To: thor-thehuntersohio rock@yahoogroups .com
        Date: Wednesday, October 1, 2008, 8:19 PM

        Yep, that disc/ spindle whirl artifact is from Wickliffe Mounds - on display at their museum. It is similar to other faces from cahokia and also at the east st. louis quarry site. That style of light engraving is archaic (between 7000 and 5000 years ago).
         
        In my opinion the Burrows cave and michigan relics are from a different culture than that which produced the faces on the disc.

        I have never found anything like the relics of burrows cave and so I cannot verify who made them.  I appreciate the work that Beverly Mosely did on photographing the stones - looking at them as art objects and translating the stories that they contain is more interesting to me than perpetuating the "hoax, fraud, fake" story. That line of thought seems to be an effort to say "nothing to see here, move along now".

        My research indicates that the existance of such relics is similar to Kudurrus - border stones from Mesopotamia that date to around 3000 years ago. Another parallel is ancestor stones called Churingas from Australia. One fact is the approx. location of burrows cave is directly east of Cahokia Mounds (aligned with the equinox). Native cultures from around the world did store their ancestral stones in groups, in caves.
         
        my two cents.

        Vince

        --- On Wed, 10/1/08, Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@ yahoo.com> wrote:

        From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@ yahoo.com>
        Subject: Re: [thor-thehuntersohi orock] Re: [ancient_waterways_ society] Re: Faces from the past : a photo essay
        To: thor-thehuntersohio rock@yahoogroups .com
        Date: Wednesday, October 1, 2008, 6:34 PM

        Vince, answering from Thor's group, says it's from a registered mound and the artifact has definite provenance.
        But yeah. I'm always on the suspicious side of anything that looks like the Burrows "collection" . Until Mays actually proves it exists. They're digging now, i hear. Haven't heard an update for the summer, tho. I'm a bit more isolated up here in MN, away from those projects.
         
        Because of the Michigan Tablets collection, (which i feel has far more legitimacy since the finders came from a wide region of coptic settlement and the script is translateable) i will not write off either collections 'completely' until more dust settles. Denials are just as speculative as claims until proof is shown. In both cases, i will hold the mindset that there were some legit artifacts found. More in the MI Tab's case than Burrows. Copies and frauds were counterfeited in each case, human greed will play itself out. But less so in the MI than Burrows. imo.
         
        Both collections will have mixture of authentic and hoax in the end, i suspect. But it would be foolish to throw the Baby out with the Bathwater without careful tests that mayhap won't evolve in technology until the future. Nuclear Resonancy Spectrometry  and Topical Flourescence may hold answers when they are refined better. Time will tell.
        -c

        --- On Wed, 10/1/08, ZHstar@... <ZHstar@...> wrote:

        From: ZHstar@... <ZHstar@...>
        Subject: Re: [thor-thehuntersohi orock] Re: [ancient_waterways_ society] Re: Faces from the past : a photo essay
        To: thor-thehuntersohio rock@yahoogroups .com
        Date: Wednesday, October 1, 2008, 2:10 PM

        Chris-
             That disc looks like something from Burrows Cave!
        Zena

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@ yahoo.com>
        To: ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com
        Cc: thor-thehuntersohio rock@yahoogroups .com
        Sent: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 2:02 am
        Subject: [thor-thehuntersohi orock] Re: [ancient_waterways_ society] Re: Faces from the past : a photo essay

        Yo Vince!
        Where did this disc come from!??
        >   http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/ Faces%20of% 20the%20Past/ ?action=view& current=Picture1 273 .jpg   <
         
        If the link from the Photobucket didn't work, the photo is attached.
         
        Is it Nat American or from the Middle East?
         
        It reminds me so much of the astrolabe-discs William works with. Could these be pictograms of The Four Winds (ie directions) or perhaps drawings of perceived constellations located at the four corners of the sky?
         
        The one has a spiked helmet and desert-travel scarves. The others could as easily be Tuag camel riders with their turbans. Might a Native person be commemorating the appearance of Strange Visitors in their village?
         
        -chris

        --- On Sun, 9/7/08, Susan <beldingenglish@ yahoo.com> wrote:

        From: Susan <beldingenglish@ yahoo.com>
        Subject: [ancient_waterways_ society] Re: Faces from the past : a photo essay
        To: ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com
        Date: Sunday, September 7, 2008, 10:17 PM

        Vince,
        Thanks for sending the link below...I am also inserting the Marburg72 link (not sure what Marburg means) that your Faces of the Past is also connected to. Are all photos within the links from your collection that you are cataloguing along with stone tablets? I clicked onto the photos and did not see specific descriptions, dates, sites where each was found....unless I am not clicking in the right place.
        I wonder if you could you introduce the sites, for the archived posts here and then put them into the Links or photos section, for reference purposes. 
        Thanks again, Vince. 
        http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/ Faces%20of% 20the%20Past/
        http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/

        --- In ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@. . .> wrote:
        >
        > http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/ Faces%20of% 20the%20Past/
        >

        [Image Removed]

        Find phone numbers fast with the New AOL Yellow Pages!


      • Chris Patenaude
        Neolithic Woodpeckers do not cite the name of Allah.   Where is the photo/stone your sketch came from? I d be very interested in seeing it. The one place
        Message 3 of 4 , Oct 4, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          Neolithic Woodpeckers do not cite the name of Allah.
           
          Where is the photo/stone your sketch came from? I'd be very interested in seeing it. The one place Barry Fell tripped up, over and over, was to trust some vicarious sketch made in the field and not see the source himself. Not gonna touch that stove if someone as smart as him got burnt. I trust it's hot. ehhh. So pardon if i do not comment on your shot, just yet.
           
          And your own reseach is respected in that "woodpeckers" were esteemed iconic elements in any indigenous society worldwide, that is recognized. My own knowledge of "Woodpecker" stories among both the Siouxan and Ojibway references are many. I just do not think the Wickliffe spindle-weight under study has anything to do with it. mho
           
          The Wickliffe Mounds date 900CE-1300CE. So does rapid Islamic expansionism via Africa, Persia or Arabia; mastersailors all. Earlier-placed Mithraic symbology in Oklahoma is in factual, documented evidence at Farley's Anubis Caves. Mithraic symbology is seen at Inyo in CA.  The trade roads to the inner N.A. continent were well established by the time Mohammed came along to start things rolling. Muslim "missionaries" would have no problem following those older trails of what they called 'pagans'. (ironic how the Templar Knights of Germanic Poland deifined the Muslims as 'pagans', also from the late 1200's-early 1300's) 
           
          14th century Muslim script is documented at INY-272 in CA. From some of the past photos i've seen of Coopna Cave in Iowa, Latin, Etruscan & Arabic script examples were seen there, also. To find Muslim ambassadors or teachers within cosmopolitan Cahokia "metro" would be most logical.
           
          -chris

          --- On Thu, 10/2/08, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...> wrote:
          From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
          Subject: Re: [thor-thehuntersohiorock] Faces from the past: Spindle wheel
          To: thor-thehuntersohiorock@yahoogroups.com
          Cc: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, epigraphy@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Thursday, October 2, 2008, 11:07 PM

          Chris;
          I appreciate your interpretation and supporting evidence.

          My interpretation was that the top knots were woodpecker crests - a motif widely used during the neolithic period.

          The other artifact that I have seen from the East St. Louis quarry Site is attached.

          Please excuse the shortnesss of my message.
          Vince
          .




          --- On Thu, 10/2/08, Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...> wrote:
          From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
          Subject: [thor-thehuntersohiorock] Faces from the past: Spindle wheel
          To: thor-thehuntersohiorock@yahoogroups.com
          Cc: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, epigraphy@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Thursday, October 2, 2008, 7:44 PM

          OK.... i've been lookin at it more closely and realized there are 5 faces, not 4. Negates 'winds', Directional influences, sky constellations etc.
          I am leaning more strongly towards it being a documentation by a local Native of exotic visitors, traders, contactees from circa 900-1280 CE.

          Pulling apart the elements, we have just-prior to and early Islamic, Silk-Road region helmets as catagorized by many websites. A few prime are listed here to prove the point.

          The most detailed example on the spindle stone is a spiked "Shishak" style with draping maile and side cheek protectors.
          > http://www.geocitie s.com/normlaw/ page13b.html <
          > http://www.geocitie s.com/Athens/ Olympus/3505/ page13.html <

          See Attached "Picture1273" and "Picture1273 Traced".

          Of the other four faces, two are pictured completely with close-domed "round" helmets with their wrap-around turbans. They knot at the back of the head and the scarf-ends are tucked under the wrap-band to drape past the ear and shade the neck. (See corroborating photo attached, "Body Armor" lifted from
          > http://www.sfusd. k12.ca.us/ schwww/sch618/ War/WarArmor. html < )

          Of the other two faces, one may actually be an attempt to depict a faceshield.. . there is no eye-dot to enliven or inhabit the shape. It is shown without a crown, just an empty eyehole and stripes as if indicating plates, not skin. The fifth head seems to be bare except for a hairline or underscarf, ie the person with helmet taken off. The artist is trying to say look, this is covering their faces! They are men, not gods.

          The four "live" heads have eyes that are outlined as purposely diamond or 'cut out' as if they are peering thru eye-holes of a faceplate or noseguards. The artist is fully able to create a smooth arc if (s)he so pleased, there are gliding arc-strokes all over the forms. If (s)he wanted to show the eyes normal, it would have been done. Something is wierd, and spooky about the eyes peering out from behind something, and the artist portrayed that quite well.

          To confirm this, two forms (one turbaned and the bare-headed one) have a distinct line coming from the bridge of the nose to the corners of the mouth, indicating a mask-shield that opens up for the mouth & lips. The other turbaned fellow has a line straight back from the eye, as if to show the mask was tied onto his face.

          Explore these other sites to see further examples of this Old World style of head-gear from the indicated timeframe. From the book titled "Medieval Russian Armies 1250-1500" (V.Shapkovsky & David Nicolle)it reminds us "After disasterous defeats at the hands of the Mongols in the 13th century, the Russian princepalities became vassels of the Khans of the Golden Horde for more than 200 years." The armies of Southern Russia, bordering and including the Silk Road routes (in the fashion of the Romans before them) adopted their Persian, Middle Eastern and Islamic neighbors' helmet and armor styles. Lighter and more functional in the warmer climates than the Euro full-body suits.

          > http://commons. wikimedia. org/wiki/ Image:Helmet_ Turkmenistan_ Louvre_K3443. jpg <

          > http://books. google.com/ books?id= 00w3jXgmY1wC& pg=PA19&lpg= PA19&dq=ancient+ helmets+Islamic& source=web& ots=_r5F1fQP8m& sig=wTdTz6ZuvMbt KCXOgoCu2zkwCMI& hl=en&sa= X&oi=book_ result&resnum= 6&ct=result# PPA19,M1 <

          > http://www.alshinda gah.com/marapr20 06/islamic. html <

          > http://members. ozemail.com. au/~chrisandpete r/kirpichnikov_ helmets/gallery. htm#03_gulbishe <

          > http://www.geocitie s.com/Athens/ Olympus/3505/ <

          So were these visitors to Cahokia country early Persian Islamic pioneers/explorers, Arabics, slightly later Russians, or possibly Chinese (whom the Natives would not have found 'exotic' of face, just costume)? Regardless of the Nationality, the headgear insists they came from the cosmopolitan thorofare called the Silk Road of which many were itinerate explorers, merchants and adventurers in order to seek out market advantages.

          The stone could have been carved early on and passed down thru several generations before being interred with the last owner. Or carved by the person with whom it was buried later on in the Wickliffe history. (950-1350 CE) What more logical place but Cahokia for the Travelers to have found their way? Someone of some skill watched carefully and took their portraits with a talented hand.

          Vince, the subject matter forcludes a dating of BCE. One cannot class an era solely on how deeply the etching was done. Any artisan will feel their material and let it speak to them as to how it best wishes to be handled and worked. You will find light and deep touches in any era, depending on the individual doing the carving and the matrix taking the strokes.

          I would almost suspect a bright, young person put it on a fishing net weight (a weighted fire spindle would be a liability, not an aide to the process) in reaction to seeing special characters on their visit to The Big City. Or even more likely, the sketches were placed on something more prized like a cotton-spinning spindle and kept specially. This does not guarantee the carver's gender, as both men and women spun fiber and wove fabrics, netting, blankets, boltstrips in the Americas.

          The one intriging element is that one turban-helmet fellow (I've traced his scarf in yellow) is saying something. It is placed as a script-line in a balloon between his mouth and the image of the empty face-shield. Dang if it doesn't look like hand-scrawled Kufic. That may mess with my little daydream of the rural youth visiting Town. Unless, as Barry Fell insists, there were Semitic schools in session during those times, and the turbaned dignitaries were resident mentors, teachers, not strangers. Then a Native 'rural' student, male or female, might indeed be taught a few special Letters.

          At that idea, i broke off writing and did some more surfing. YESS!
          See attached Kufic example "BasmAllah". Reading right-to-left, is B-S-M-ALLAH. .. and what ever else the phrase says. I'm not Muslim, so do not know what generic litany line it may be. However, i've traced the letters (initiate)"A" and the (terminal) "A" in red. The L-L(+connective diacritical loop)in blue.

          Now look at the Picture Traced in the balloon in front of Yellow Head's mouth. ALLAH!

          Now go lay THAT at Smitty Wallace's doorstep and see her deny it! LOL
          -c

          --- On Wed, 10/1/08, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@yahoo. com> wrote:

          From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@yahoo. com>
          Subject: Re: [thor-thehuntersohi orock] Re: [ancient_waterways_ society] Re: Faces from the past : a photo essay
          To: thor-thehuntersohio rock@yahoogroups .com
          Date: Wednesday, October 1, 2008, 8:19 PM

          Yep, that disc/ spindle whirl artifact is from Wickliffe Mounds - on display at their museum. It is similar to other faces from cahokia and also at the east st. louis quarry site. That style of light engraving is archaic (between 7000 and 5000 years ago).
           
          In my opinion the Burrows cave and michigan relics are from a different culture than that which produced the faces on the disc.

          I have never found anything like the relics of burrows cave and so I cannot verify who made them.  I appreciate the work that Beverly Mosely did on photographing the stones - looking at them as art objects and translating the stories that they contain is more interesting to me than perpetuating the "hoax, fraud, fake" story. That line of thought seems to be an effort to say "nothing to see here, move along now".

          My research indicates that the existance of such relics is similar to Kudurrus - border stones from Mesopotamia that date to around 3000 years ago. Another parallel is ancestor stones called Churingas from Australia. One fact is the approx. location of burrows cave is directly east of Cahokia Mounds (aligned with the equinox). Native cultures from around the world did store their ancestral stones in groups, in caves.
           
          my two cents.

          Vince

          --- On Wed, 10/1/08, Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@ yahoo.com> wrote:

          From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@ yahoo.com>
          Subject: Re: [thor-thehuntersohi orock] Re: [ancient_waterways_ society] Re: Faces from the past : a photo essay
          To: thor-thehuntersohio rock@yahoogroups .com
          Date: Wednesday, October 1, 2008, 6:34 PM

          Vince, answering from Thor's group, says it's from a registered mound and the artifact has definite provenance.
          But yeah. I'm always on the suspicious side of anything that looks like the Burrows "collection" . Until Mays actually proves it exists. They're digging now, i hear. Haven't heard an update for the summer, tho. I'm a bit more isolated up here in MN, away from those projects.
           
          Because of the Michigan Tablets collection, (which i feel has far more legitimacy since the finders came from a wide region of coptic settlement and the script is translateable) i will not write off either collections 'completely' until more dust settles. Denials are just as speculative as claims until proof is shown. In both cases, i will hold the mindset that there were some legit artifacts found. More in the MI Tab's case than Burrows. Copies and frauds were counterfeited in each case, human greed will play itself out. But less so in the MI than Burrows. imo.
           
          Both collections will have mixture of authentic and hoax in the end, i suspect. But it would be foolish to throw the Baby out with the Bathwater without careful tests that mayhap won't evolve in technology until the future. Nuclear Resonancy Spectrometry  and Topical Flourescence may hold answers when they are refined better. Time will tell.
          -c

          --- On Wed, 10/1/08, ZHstar@... <ZHstar@...> wrote:

          From: ZHstar@... <ZHstar@...>
          Subject: Re: [thor-thehuntersohi orock] Re: [ancient_waterways_ society] Re: Faces from the past : a photo essay
          To: thor-thehuntersohio rock@yahoogroups .com
          Date: Wednesday, October 1, 2008, 2:10 PM

          Chris-
               That disc looks like something from Burrows Cave!
          Zena

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@ yahoo.com>
          To: ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com
          Cc: thor-thehuntersohio rock@yahoogroups .com
          Sent: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 2:02 am
          Subject: [thor-thehuntersohi orock] Re: [ancient_waterways_ society] Re: Faces from the past : a photo essay

          Yo Vince!
          Where did this disc come from!??
          >   http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/ Faces%20of% 20the%20Past/ ?action=view& current=Picture1 273 .jpg   <
           
          If the link from the Photobucket didn't work, the photo is attached.
           
          Is it Nat American or from the Middle East?
           
          It reminds me so much of the astrolabe-discs William works with. Could these be pictograms of The Four Winds (ie directions) or perhaps drawings of perceived constellations located at the four corners of the sky?
           
          The one has a spiked helmet and desert-travel scarves. The others could as easily be Tuag camel riders with their turbans. Might a Native person be commemorating the appearance of Strange Visitors in their village?
           
          -chris

          --- On Sun, 9/7/08, Susan <beldingenglish@ yahoo.com> wrote:

          From: Susan <beldingenglish@ yahoo.com>
          Subject: [ancient_waterways_ society] Re: Faces from the past : a photo essay
          To: ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com
          Date: Sunday, September 7, 2008, 10:17 PM

          Vince,
          Thanks for sending the link below...I am also inserting the Marburg72 link (not sure what Marburg means) that your Faces of the Past is also connected to. Are all photos within the links from your collection that you are cataloguing along with stone tablets? I clicked onto the photos and did not see specific descriptions, dates, sites where each was found....unless I am not clicking in the right place.
          I wonder if you could you introduce the sites, for the archived posts here and then put them into the Links or photos section, for reference purposes. 
          Thanks again, Vince. 
          http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/ Faces%20of% 20the%20Past/
          http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/

          --- In ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@. . .> wrote:
          >
          > http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/ Faces%20of% 20the%20Past/
          >

          [Image Removed]

          Find phone numbers fast with the New AOL Yellow Pages!



        • Vincent Barrows
          Chris; The pottery bowl drawing is from the University of Illinois, curated at ITARP The light engravings are on the surface of the pottery bowl. The drawing
          Message 4 of 4 , Oct 4, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Chris;
            The pottery bowl drawing is from the University of Illinois, curated at ITARP The light engravings are on the surface of the pottery bowl. The drawing was made by Mera Hertel of the University of Illinois.
            I aquired the drawing from Liz Kassly. Anyhow, I have personally not seen the pottery sherd myself even though I asked to see it at the Belleville ITARP research building. So I cannot verify its location but respectfully disagree about the engraving being "hot".

            Otherwise, I see six faces on the spindle whirl from wickliffe.The helmets that you have shown do appear similar to the outline of the shape. Other motifs on the spindle whirl that we are studying is the diamond eye motif. Which brings us back to the diamond dot symbolis, that we were disucssing recently.

            But I thought the woodpecker head with crests resembled the spindle whirl engraving because of the similarity with some others found at Cahokia Mounds - and are pictured on my website.
            http://www.freewebs.com/historyofmonksmound

            The 1000-1200CE date of Wickliffe Mounds is based on carbon dates from some post pits according to the following link:

            http://users.stlcc.edu/mfuller/Wickliffe.html

            However, this website presents two problems to me. First, the posts could have been added at any time after the original site was inhabited and constructed. Second, line indicating "base of excavation" used to establish this date did not go any deeper than these levels - so this hardly seems conclusive of origin dates. I do not dispute that the site was occupied at the time period from 1100 AD, just think the determination leaves me wishing to "dig deeper".

            An earlier date of population origin in the area of Wickliffe Mounds is based on the fabric impression pottery types found on the Wickliffe mound site that were display in the museum. Fabric impression pottery has been found in Pre-mound surfaces at mound sites around the central and southeast. This type of surface treatment is said to originate during the Early (1000 B.C.-500 B.C.) and Middle (500 B.C. - A.D. 800) Woodland periods.

            http://www.ncgenweb.us/hyde/ethnic/algonqin/phelps2.htm
            http://www.learnnc.org/lp/pages/1269

            To date the formative cultures in mound sites from archaeology reveals a vague understanding of the cultures that lived there. One must keep in mind that as civilizations came and went, the pieces of the last culture are often swept away. The paucity of remains causes the earlier civilizations to be often overlooked.
            Regards;
            Vince

            --- On Sat, 10/4/08, Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...> wrote:
            From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
            Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: [thor-thehuntersohiorock] Faces from the past: Spindle wheel
            To: thor-thehuntersohiorock@yahoogroups.com
            Cc: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, epigraphy@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Saturday, October 4, 2008, 7:30 PM

            Neolithic Woodpeckers do not cite the name of Allah.
             
            Where is the photo/stone your sketch came from? I'd be very interested in seeing it. The one place Barry Fell tripped up, over and over, was to trust some vicarious sketch made in the field and not see the source himself. Not gonna touch that stove if someone as smart as him got burnt. I trust it's hot. ehhh. So pardon if i do not comment on your shot, just yet.
             
            And your own reseach is respected in that "woodpeckers" were esteemed iconic elements in any indigenous society worldwide, that is recognized. My own knowledge of "Woodpecker" stories among both the Siouxan and Ojibway references are many. I just do not think the Wickliffe spindle-weight under study has anything to do with it. mho
             
            The Wickliffe Mounds date 900CE-1300CE. So does rapid Islamic expansionism via Africa, Persia or Arabia; mastersailors all. Earlier-placed Mithraic symbology in Oklahoma is in factual, documented evidence at Farley's Anubis Caves. Mithraic symbology is seen at Inyo in CA.  The trade roads to the inner N.A. continent were well established by the time Mohammed came along to start things rolling. Muslim "missionaries" would have no problem following those older trails of what they called 'pagans'. (ironic how the Templar Knights of Germanic Poland deifined the Muslims as 'pagans', also from the late 1200's-early 1300's) 
             
            14th century Muslim script is documented at INY-272 in CA. From some of the past photos i've seen of Coopna Cave in Iowa, Latin, Etruscan & Arabic script examples were seen there, also. To find Muslim ambassadors or teachers within cosmopolitan Cahokia "metro" would be most logical.
             
            -chris

            --- On Thu, 10/2/08, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@yahoo. com> wrote:
            From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@yahoo. com>
            Subject: Re: [thor-thehuntersohi orock] Faces from the past: Spindle wheel
            To: thor-thehuntersohio rock@yahoogroups .com
            Cc: ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com, epigraphy@yahoogrou ps.com
            Date: Thursday, October 2, 2008, 11:07 PM

            Chris;
            I appreciate your interpretation and supporting evidence.

            My interpretation was that the top knots were woodpecker crests - a motif widely used during the neolithic period.

            The other artifact that I have seen from the East St. Louis quarry Site is attached.

            Please excuse the shortnesss of my message.
            Vince
            .




            --- On Thu, 10/2/08, Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@ yahoo.com> wrote:
            From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@ yahoo.com>
            Subject: [thor-thehuntersohi orock] Faces from the past: Spindle wheel
            To: thor-thehuntersohio rock@yahoogroups .com
            Cc: ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com, epigraphy@yahoogrou ps.com
            Date: Thursday, October 2, 2008, 7:44 PM

            OK.... i've been lookin at it more closely and realized there are 5 faces, not 4. Negates 'winds', Directional influences, sky constellations etc.
            I am leaning more strongly towards it being a documentation by a local Native of exotic visitors, traders, contactees from circa 900-1280 CE.

            Pulling apart the elements, we have just-prior to and early Islamic, Silk-Road region helmets as catagorized by many websites. A few prime are listed here to prove the point.

            The most detailed example on the spindle stone is a spiked "Shishak" style with draping maile and side cheek protectors.
            > http://www.geocitie s.com/normlaw/ page13b.html <
            > http://www.geocitie s.com/Athens/ Olympus/3505/ page13.html <

            See Attached "Picture1273" and "Picture1273 Traced".

            Of the other four faces, two are pictured completely with close-domed "round" helmets with their wrap-around turbans. They knot at the back of the head and the scarf-ends are tucked under the wrap-band to drape past the ear and shade the neck. (See corroborating photo attached, "Body Armor" lifted from
            > http://www.sfusd. k12.ca.us/ schwww/sch618/ War/WarArmor. html < )

            Of the other two faces, one may actually be an attempt to depict a faceshield.. . there is no eye-dot to enliven or inhabit the shape. It is shown without a crown, just an empty eyehole and stripes as if indicating plates, not skin. The fifth head seems to be bare except for a hairline or underscarf, ie the person with helmet taken off. The artist is trying to say look, this is covering their faces! They are men, not gods.

            The four "live" heads have eyes that are outlined as purposely diamond or 'cut out' as if they are peering thru eye-holes of a faceplate or noseguards. The artist is fully able to create a smooth arc if (s)he so pleased, there are gliding arc-strokes all over the forms. If (s)he wanted to show the eyes normal, it would have been done. Something is wierd, and spooky about the eyes peering out from behind something, and the artist portrayed that quite well.

            To confirm this, two forms (one turbaned and the bare-headed one) have a distinct line coming from the bridge of the nose to the corners of the mouth, indicating a mask-shield that opens up for the mouth & lips. The other turbaned fellow has a line straight back from the eye, as if to show the mask was tied onto his face.

            Explore these other sites to see further examples of this Old World style of head-gear from the indicated timeframe. From the book titled "Medieval Russian Armies 1250-1500" (V.Shapkovsky & David Nicolle)it reminds us "After disasterous defeats at the hands of the Mongols in the 13th century, the Russian princepalities became vassels of the Khans of the Golden Horde for more than 200 years." The armies of Southern Russia, bordering and including the Silk Road routes (in the fashion of the Romans before them) adopted their Persian, Middle Eastern and Islamic neighbors' helmet and armor styles. Lighter and more functional in the warmer climates than the Euro full-body suits.

            > http://commons. wikimedia. org/wiki/ Image:Helmet_ Turkmenistan_ Louvre_K3443. jpg <

            > http://books. google.com/ books?id= 00w3jXgmY1wC& pg=PA19&lpg= PA19&dq=ancient+ helmets+Islamic& source=web& ots=_r5F1fQP8m& sig=wTdTz6ZuvMbt KCXOgoCu2zkwCMI& hl=en&sa= X&oi=book_ result&resnum= 6&ct=result# PPA19,M1 <

            > http://www.alshinda gah.com/marapr20 06/islamic. html <

            > http://members. ozemail.com. au/~chrisandpete r/kirpichnikov_ helmets/gallery. htm#03_gulbishe <

            > http://www.geocitie s.com/Athens/ Olympus/3505/ <

            So were these visitors to Cahokia country early Persian Islamic pioneers/explorers, Arabics, slightly later Russians, or possibly Chinese (whom the Natives would not have found 'exotic' of face, just costume)? Regardless of the Nationality, the headgear insists they came from the cosmopolitan thorofare called the Silk Road of which many were itinerate explorers, merchants and adventurers in order to seek out market advantages.

            The stone could have been carved early on and passed down thru several generations before being interred with the last owner. Or carved by the person with whom it was buried later on in the Wickliffe history. (950-1350 CE) What more logical place but Cahokia for the Travelers to have found their way? Someone of some skill watched carefully and took their portraits with a talented hand.

            Vince, the subject matter forcludes a dating of BCE. One cannot class an era solely on how deeply the etching was done. Any artisan will feel their material and let it speak to them as to how it best wishes to be handled and worked. You will find light and deep touches in any era, depending on the individual doing the carving and the matrix taking the strokes.

            I would almost suspect a bright, young person put it on a fishing net weight (a weighted fire spindle would be a liability, not an aide to the process) in reaction to seeing special characters on their visit to The Big City. Or even more likely, the sketches were placed on something more prized like a cotton-spinning spindle and kept specially. This does not guarantee the carver's gender, as both men and women spun fiber and wove fabrics, netting, blankets, boltstrips in the Americas.

            The one intriging element is that one turban-helmet fellow (I've traced his scarf in yellow) is saying something. It is placed as a script-line in a balloon between his mouth and the image of the empty face-shield. Dang if it doesn't look like hand-scrawled Kufic. That may mess with my little daydream of the rural youth visiting Town. Unless, as Barry Fell insists, there were Semitic schools in session during those times, and the turbaned dignitaries were resident mentors, teachers, not strangers. Then a Native 'rural' student, male or female, might indeed be taught a few special Letters.

            At that idea, i broke off writing and did some more surfing. YESS!
            See attached Kufic example "BasmAllah". Reading right-to-left, is B-S-M-ALLAH. .. and what ever else the phrase says. I'm not Muslim, so do not know what generic litany line it may be. However, i've traced the letters (initiate)"A" and the (terminal) "A" in red. The L-L(+connective diacritical loop)in blue.

            Now look at the Picture Traced in the balloon in front of Yellow Head's mouth. ALLAH!

            Now go lay THAT at Smitty Wallace's doorstep and see her deny it! LOL
            -c

            --- On Wed, 10/1/08, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@yahoo. com> wrote:

            From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@yahoo. com>
            Subject: Re: [thor-thehuntersohi orock] Re: [ancient_waterways_ society] Re: Faces from the past : a photo essay
            To: thor-thehuntersohio rock@yahoogroups .com
            Date: Wednesday, October 1, 2008, 8:19 PM

            Yep, that disc/ spindle whirl artifact is from Wickliffe Mounds - on display at their museum. It is similar to other faces from cahokia and also at the east st. louis quarry site. That style of light engraving is archaic (between 7000 and 5000 years ago).
             
            In my opinion the Burrows cave and michigan relics are from a different culture than that which produced the faces on the disc.

            I have never found anything like the relics of burrows cave and so I cannot verify who made them.  I appreciate the work that Beverly Mosely did on photographing the stones - looking at them as art objects and translating the stories that they contain is more interesting to me than perpetuating the "hoax, fraud, fake" story. That line of thought seems to be an effort to say "nothing to see here, move along now".

            My research indicates that the existance of such relics is similar to Kudurrus - border stones from Mesopotamia that date to around 3000 years ago. Another parallel is ancestor stones called Churingas from Australia. One fact is the approx. location of burrows cave is directly east of Cahokia Mounds (aligned with the equinox). Native cultures from around the world did store their ancestral stones in groups, in caves.
             
            my two cents.

            Vince

            --- On Wed, 10/1/08, Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@ yahoo.com> wrote:

            From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@ yahoo.com>
            Subject: Re: [thor-thehuntersohi orock] Re: [ancient_waterways_ society] Re: Faces from the past : a photo essay
            To: thor-thehuntersohio rock@yahoogroups .com
            Date: Wednesday, October 1, 2008, 6:34 PM

            Vince, answering from Thor's group, says it's from a registered mound and the artifact has definite provenance.
            But yeah. I'm always on the suspicious side of anything that looks like the Burrows "collection" . Until Mays actually proves it exists. They're digging now, i hear. Haven't heard an update for the summer, tho. I'm a bit more isolated up here in MN, away from those projects.
             
            Because of the Michigan Tablets collection, (which i feel has far more legitimacy since the finders came from a wide region of coptic settlement and the script is translateable) i will not write off either collections 'completely' until more dust settles. Denials are just as speculative as claims until proof is shown. In both cases, i will hold the mindset that there were some legit artifacts found. More in the MI Tab's case than Burrows. Copies and frauds were counterfeited in each case, human greed will play itself out. But less so in the MI than Burrows. imo.
             
            Both collections will have mixture of authentic and hoax in the end, i suspect. But it would be foolish to throw the Baby out with the Bathwater without careful tests that mayhap won't evolve in technology until the future. Nuclear Resonancy Spectrometry  and Topical Flourescence may hold answers when they are refined better. Time will tell.
            -c

            --- On Wed, 10/1/08, ZHstar@... <ZHstar@...> wrote:

            From: ZHstar@... <ZHstar@...>
            Subject: Re: [thor-thehuntersohi orock] Re: [ancient_waterways_ society] Re: Faces from the past : a photo essay
            To: thor-thehuntersohio rock@yahoogroups .com
            Date: Wednesday, October 1, 2008, 2:10 PM

            Chris-
                 That disc looks like something from Burrows Cave!
            Zena

            -----Original Message-----
            From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@ yahoo.com>
            To: ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com
            Cc: thor-thehuntersohio rock@yahoogroups .com
            Sent: Tue, 30 Sep 2008 2:02 am
            Subject: [thor-thehuntersohi orock] Re: [ancient_waterways_ society] Re: Faces from the past : a photo essay

            Yo Vince!
            Where did this disc come from!??
            >   http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/ Faces%20of% 20the%20Past/ ?action=view& current=Picture1 273 .jpg   <
             
            If the link from the Photobucket didn't work, the photo is attached.
             
            Is it Nat American or from the Middle East?
             
            It reminds me so much of the astrolabe-discs William works with. Could these be pictograms of The Four Winds (ie directions) or perhaps drawings of perceived constellations located at the four corners of the sky?
             
            The one has a spiked helmet and desert-travel scarves. The others could as easily be Tuag camel riders with their turbans. Might a Native person be commemorating the appearance of Strange Visitors in their village?
             
            -chris

            --- On Sun, 9/7/08, Susan <beldingenglish@ yahoo.com> wrote:

            From: Susan <beldingenglish@ yahoo.com>
            Subject: [ancient_waterways_ society] Re: Faces from the past : a photo essay
            To: ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com
            Date: Sunday, September 7, 2008, 10:17 PM

            Vince,
            Thanks for sending the link below...I am also inserting the Marburg72 link (not sure what Marburg means) that your Faces of the Past is also connected to. Are all photos within the links from your collection that you are cataloguing along with stone tablets? I clicked onto the photos and did not see specific descriptions, dates, sites where each was found....unless I am not clicking in the right place.
            I wonder if you could you introduce the sites, for the archived posts here and then put them into the Links or photos section, for reference purposes. 
            Thanks again, Vince. 
            http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/ Faces%20of% 20the%20Past/
            http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/

            --- In ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@. . .> wrote:
            >
            > http://s243. photobucket. com/albums/ ff280/Marburg72/ Faces%20of% 20the%20Past/
            >

            [Image Removed]

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