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Re: Was Orkney the ceremonial capital of ancient Britain?

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  • james m. clark jr.
    Thanks Susan, Dates and ages are significant but sometimes the traditions, myths and folklore don t alway coincide with events; especially if there is
    Message 1 of 10 , May 14, 2008
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      Thanks Susan,

      Dates and ages are significant but sometimes the traditions, myths and
      folklore don't alway coincide with events; especially if there is
      historical record of one or more of the same disregarding what is
      suppose to be the historical method of the sometimes acclaimed
      scientific method.

      A good factual example would be the field work of archaeologist C.W.
      Blean, and Miss. Keton on the 3 wars of Troy, opposed to Homers
      conscrewity of a scientifically generally excepted single battle in
      which Homer's historically crams, roughly, 500 years in one single
      day. Whoever said he was blind must be speaking metaphorically of the
      modern Homermic society or the Edger Casyians.

      Up until 2 week ago on the history channel, I've read very very little
      on what is termed the "Little Ice Age" that I have only really head
      about. And what do I do? I fall asleep. After about 20 years of
      frustration and searching for anything on it or more about it than I
      know or wished to know. I almost want to believe it was deliberately
      delayed based on findings of Iceman and the baffled the scientific
      community. I believe it was in 98 when students took core samples of
      the great lakes and it was suggested that an Ice Age itself could in
      one sense or another happen within 10 yrs. Ten year and 10,000 year is
      slightly different.

      be well,
      jamey









      --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
      <beldingenglish@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Jamie, All,
      >
      > Re: the Orkneys as a ceremonial capital of ancient Britain, I am
      > inserting a Timeline of the Orkney Islands from the article Jamie sent.
      > I also believe one can clearly distinguish between a pre-Viking Orkney
      > society and Viking Orkney kingdom, and that much of the Neolithic
      > ceremonial construction was established during the pre-Viking period.
      >
      > Coincidently, after reading the Orkney Islands site Jamies sent, I found
      > a March 17, 2008 article about a rare piece of Neolithic stone art
      > discovered recently on a beach in Orkney, concentric circles within the
      > object indicate something of significance to researchers. The stone
      > relic "is perhaps from a chambered tomb and could be as old as 5000-6000
      > years, and would have possibly been used as a ceremonial sacred object"
      > .... part of the Neolithic world linked by the Irish Sea, older than the
      > Egyptian pyramids. See:
      > http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1987028/posts
      > <http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1987028/posts>
      >
      > ________________________
      >
      > A Timeline of Orkney History from:
      > http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/timeline.htm
      > <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/timeline.htm>
      > Year Event 3800BC (circa) The Knap of Howar
      > <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/knaphowar.htm> built and occupied on
      > the island of Papa Westray. 3200BC (circa) Skara Brae
      > <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/skarabrae/index.html> occupied. At
      > around about the same time, the Barnhouse Settlement
      > <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/barnhouse/index.html> , close to the
      > present site of the Standing Stones o' Stenness
      > <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/standingstones/index.html> ring was
      > in use. 2900BC (circa) Standing Stones o' Stenness
      > <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/standingstones/index.html> and the
      > Ring o' Brodgar <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/brodgar/index.html>
      > may have been constructed around about this time - give or take a few
      > hundred years. 2800BC (circa) The chambered tomb Maeshowe
      > <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/maeshowe/index.html> constructed
      > 2700BC (circa) [Pyramids in Egypt] 2200BC (circa) The village of
      > Skara Brae <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/skarabrae/index.html>
      > abandoned 50AD Broch of Gurness
      > <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/brochs/gurness/index.html> in early
      > stages of development. 84 (circa) Agricola's supposed visit to Orkney
      > <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/romans.htm> . 563 [Saint Columba in
      > Scotland] 580 Cormac's missionary journey to Orkney. 787 [First
      > recorded appearance of Vikings in England.] 800 (circa) [First period
      > of Norse colonisation begins.] 841 [Rouen taken by the Norsemen.]
      > 850 (circa) Harald Fairhair's legendary voyage to Orkney
      > <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/vikingorkney/index.html> –
      > earldom established
      > <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/vikingorkney/earldom.htm> . 853
      > [Norse kingdom established in Dublin.] 871 [Alfred the Great King of
      > England.] 874 (circa) Sigurd I is earl.
      > <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/historicalfigures/sigmighty.htm> 885
      > [Siege of Paris by the Norsemen.] 890 (circa) Battle with Maelbrigte
      > of Ross
      > <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/historicalfigures/sigmighty.htm> (the
      > villainous "Tusker" of Orcadian folklore) – Earl Sigurd's death
      > resulted (see The Ba' Page
      > <http://www.orkneyjar.com/tradition/bagame/index.html> for more
      > details).
      >
      > Guttorm, Sigurd's son, is earl 900 Battle of Harfursfirth –
      > Second period of Norse colonisation begins.
      > [Iceland colonised by Norsemen] 907 (circa) Hallad, son of Rognvald,
      > Earl of Moeri, earl 893 (circa) Einar I ("Torf Einar") Rognvaldsson is
      > earl <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/vikingorkney/torfeinar.htm> .
      > (Referred to as Torf Einar as he is credited with introducing the
      > tradition of burning peats as fuel to the islands) 912 [Rolf or
      > Rollo, Rognvald's son, Duke of Normandy.] 946-976 (circa) Arnkell,
      > Erlend I, and Thorfinn I, Einar's sons, rule as joint earls. 950
      > [King Eric Bloodaxe expelled from Norway.] 954 King Eric Bloodaxe and
      > Earls Arnkell and Erlend fall at battle of Stainsmoor. 976-991 (circa)
      > Arnfinn, Havard, Ljot, and Hlodvir, Thorfinn's sons, are joint earls.
      > 980 [Discovery of Greenland by the Norsemen.] 986 [Possible
      > Discovery of America (Vinland) by the Norsemen.] 991 (circa) Sigurd II
      > Hlodvirsson
      >
      <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/historicalfigures/earlsigurd/index.htm\
      > l> , is earl. 995 Sigurd forced to convert to Christianity by Olaf
      > Trygvesson.
      >
      <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/historicalfigures/earlsigurd/earlsigur\
      > dconvert.htm> 998 [Olaf Trygvesson is King of Norway.] 1014 Battle
      > of Clontarf - Earl Sigurd is killed, carrying the cursed Raven Banner.
      >
      <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/historicalfigures/earlsigurd/index.htm\
      > l>
      >
      > Sumarlid, Einar II, Brusi, and (later) Thorfinn II, Sigurd's sons,
      > joint-earls. 1030 Death of Earl Brusi - Thorfinn II sole earl
      >
      > Rognvald, Brusi's son, claims a share of the earldom. 1045 Battle in
      > the Pentland Firth (south of Orkney) between Rognvald and Thorfinn.
      > 1045 Earl Rognvald murdered on the island of Papa Stronsay. 1056
      > [Malcolm Canmore is King of Scotland.] 1057 Christ's Kirk in the West
      > Mainland parish of Birsay founded. The exact location of the kirk is
      > still hotly debated today, with some believing it stood within the
      > offshore island settlement known the Brough o' Birsay
      > <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/broughofbirsay/index.html> and others
      > that it stood where Birsay village is now found. 1065 Death of
      > Thorfinn; his sons Paul I. and Erlend II are joint-earls 1066 Harald
      > Hardradi visits Orkney.
      > [Harold Godwinsson is King of England]
      > [Battle of Stamford Bridge]
      > [The Norman Conquest - Invasion of Duke William of Normandy - Battle of
      > Hastings] 1087 [Moorish Empire established in Spain] 1096 [First
      > Crusade] 1098 Magnus (Barefoot), King of Norway, sends the Orkney
      > earls to Norway, and makes his son Sigurd "King" of Orkney 1103
      > [Death of King Magnus of Norway - Sigurd is made King of Norway] 1105
      > Hakon Paulsson and Magnus Erlendsson are joint-earls. 1117 Murder of
      > Earl Magnus <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/stmagnus/index.html> (St
      > Magnus) in Egilsay 1123 Death of Earl Hakon; his sons Harald I and
      > Paul II joint-earls 1127 Death of Harald - Paul sole earl 1129
      > Rognvald II (Kali) appointed joint-earl by King Sigurd of Norway 1135
      > Rognvald's first expedition to claim the earldom
      > St. Magnus Church, Egilsay, founded 1136 Rognvald's second expedition
      > to acquire Earldom- Earl Paul kidnapped by Sweyn Asleifson
      > <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/historicalfigures/sweyn/index.html>
      > 1137 St Magnus Cathedral
      > <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/stmagnus/magcath.htm> founded in
      > Kirkwall 1138 Harald II Maddadson joint-earl 1151 Norse Crusaders
      > (Jerusalem-farers) returning from the Holy Land winter in Orkney and
      > break into Maeshowe
      > <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/maeshowe/index.html> seeking shelter
      > (see also Maeshowe's Treasure
      > <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/maeshowe/maeshtreasure.htm> and
      > Maeshowe's Runes
      > <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/maeshowe/maeshrunes.htm> ) 1151 Earl
      > Rognvald's Crusade to Jerusalem 1151 Erlend III is made joint-earl
      > 1152-1154 The War of the Three Earls - Rognvald, Harald and Erlend fight
      > for possession of the Earldom. 1154 Death of Erlend III - killed off
      > the island of Damsay by Rognvald and Harald. 1158 Earl Rognvald
      > killed. Harald sole Earl. 1171
      > Sweyn Asleifson's last cruise and death at Dublin.
      > [English invasion of Ireland]
      > 1194 [Battle of Floravoe in Norway. The defeat of the
      > "island-beardies"] 1196 Shetland separated from the Orkney Earldom
      > 1197 Harald III becomes joint Earl (grandson of Rognvald) 1198 Death
      > of Harald III - killed by Earl Harald Maddadsson. 1206 Death of Harald
      > II Maddadson. His sons David and John become joint earls. 1214 Death
      > of Earl David
      > [Alexander II becomes King of Scotland] 1215 [Magna Carta granted in
      > England] 1222 Bishop Adam burned in Caithness. 1231 Death of John;
      > last Earl of the Norse line
      > <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/vikingorkney/earls.htm> . 1236
      > (circa) Magnus II, the first of the Angus line, becomes Earl.
      > <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/vikingorkney/angusline.htm>
      > Ship carrying the chief men of the Orkney islands is lost on the voyage
      > between Norway and Orkney. 1239 Gilbride (Gilbert) I becomes earl
      > 1249 [Alexander III is king of Scotland] 1256 Magnus III is made
      > earl. 1263 King Hakon of Norway's expedition to his western empire.
      > The Battle of Largs
      > Haakon dies in Kirkwall.
      > <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/haakondeath.htm> 1273 Magnus IV is
      > earl. 1284 Jon II Magnusson is earl. 1286 [Death of Alexander III
      > of Scotland. Margaret of Norway becomes heiress to the Scottish Crown]
      > 1292 [Death of Margaret - "the Maid of Norway"] 1306 [Robert the
      > Bruce is King of Scotland. Local tradition has it that Bruce passed the
      > winter of 1306-07 in Orkney, not in the island of Rathlin] 1310
      > Magnus V is earl. 1312 [Treaty of Perth confirmed at Inverness]
      > 1314 [Battle of Bannockburn] 1321 The death of Magnus V marks the end
      > of the Angus line.
      > Malise of Stratherne becomes Earl. 1353 Erngisl is made earl 1357
      > Death of Erngisl; the end of the Stratherne line. 1379
      > Henry I (St. Clair)
      >
      <http://www.orkneyjar.com/history/historicalfigures/henrysinclair/index.\
      > html> is made earl.Shetland restored to the Earldom
      > [The union of Norway, Sweden and Denmark - the Union of Calmar]
      >
      > _________________
      > MSE--- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "james m. clark
      > jr." <jameyboy@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Hi All,
      > >
      > > For those who were somewhat disappointed in the link error on this
      > > subject, and perhaps didn't look further at the time or since then.
      > > Here is that link from the journalist who wrote it. But updated
      > > information on the site in Orkney is still a knowledge quest for me.
      > >
      > >
      > > Here is the link: (sorry about that)
      > > http://www.orkneyjar.com/archaeology/brodgarcapital.htm
      > >
      > > be well,
      > > jamey
      > >
      > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "james m. clark jr."
      > > jameyboy@ wrote:
      > > >
      > > > This is actually a repost that had no responce at precolumbian
      > > > inscriptions. At any rate, I thought ancient_waterways would find
      > this
      > > > somewhat interesting.
      > > > ---------------------------------------------
      > > >
      > > > Was Orkney the ceremonial capital of ancient Britain?
      > > >
      > > > STEPHEN STEWART November 03 2003
      > > >
      > > > ORKNEY may have been the largest
      > > > prehistoric settlement or ceremonial
      > > > site in Britain, new research reveals
      > > > today.
      > > > Archaeologists using the latest
      > > > techniques to map under the soil
      > > > discovered the world heritage site
      > > > covering the Ness of Brodgar in Stenness,
      > > > was a massive centre of activity in Stone
      > > > Age times.
      > > > Orkney's landscape has largely managed to avoid the rigours of
      > > > industrialised farming and may yet yield its secrets about the
      > > > recently-surveyed site, which in terms of scale, puts the likes of
      > > > Stonehenge, Avebury and Skara Brae in the shade.
      > > > Orkney Archaeological Trust (OAT) used magnetometry, a geophysical
      > > > technique which measures magnetism in the soil, to trace the
      > patterns
      > > > of activity left by prehistoric Orcadians.
      > > >
      > > > Rest at
      > > >
      > > > http://ww1.theherald.co.uk/news/3749-print.shtml
      > > > (not sure link is active after a year or two)
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > I would have said yes 2 (3 or 4)years ago(now).
      > > >
      > > > Would this settles the long debate in lingustics
      > > > over the word 'hundred' that Tacitus referred
      > > > to in his book on Britain and Germany?
      > > >
      > > > Tacitus-On Britain and Germany 1948-1967 by H. Mattingly
      > > >
      > > > "In several passages Tacitus speaks of 'the hundred'
      > > > in idiomatic senses which modern scholars have found
      > > > hard to understand, but the suggestion that he was
      > > > misunderstanding the word hundred, meaning district
      > > > will not do. Neither in Germany nor Anglo-Saxon England
      > > > was the word so used till centuries later." (p.29 intro)
      > > >
      > > > "They dwell in a hundred Country districts and in virtue of
      > > > their magnitude count themselves chief of all the Suebi." -
      > > > Tactius;p.133
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > "The green, fertile islands with their mild climate and clever,
      > boat-
      > > > building peoples, with the rich, bounding blood of the Picts and
      > > > Irish, the Norse and the Danes and Icelanders, to nourish their
      > life-
      > > > stream. Orkney, with its hundred small beaches and harbours: the
      > > > crossroads where every merchant-ship rested, where every tax-boat
      > > > and warship and supply vessel ran for shelter in the wild, open
      > > > seaway between Norway and the Viking cities of Ireland; between
      > > > Norway and her colonies in the western isles, the ports of Wales and
      > > > the markets of western England, the wine road to Bordeaux and Loire,
      > > > the pilgrim road and the fighting road down to Spain and Jerusalem.
      > > >
      > > > Everyone had to pass by the islands of Orkney. And only seven little
      > > > miles separated Orkney from Caithness and the north part of Alba." -
      > > > king hereAFTER; by Dorthy Dunnett,
      > > > 1982, p.13.
      > > >
      > > >
      > > > Perhaps if someone like Dorthy Dunnett, a Scottish Medieval
      > > > historical novelist and mystery writter were noted for religious
      > > > ideas of the region, logical ocean current flow, we would have known
      > > > why the word hundred was so elusive for centuries where this
      > mythical
      > > > district was, because Tacitus told us and he did his job 700 years
      > > > earlier prior to the first millennium.
      > > > The rest of us would have just passed right on by!! I can only
      > wonder
      > > > if he only heard about this district, but I wouldn't think he would
      > > > want tell even, besides the Romans would have been crushed from all
      > > > sides- Maybe he only visited once, besides this district isn't the
      > > > motherland of Germany or England after all.
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • james m clark jr
      Was Orkney the ceremonial capital of ancient Britain? Read all of this article with a FREE trial? http://www.highbeam.com/reg/reg1.aspx It could be a simular
      Message 2 of 10 , Dec 15, 2010
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        Was Orkney the ceremonial capital of ancient Britain?

        Read all of this article with a FREE trial?
        http://www.highbeam.com/reg/reg1.aspx

        It could be a simular updated version
        Has anyone noticed this in the past few years?

        be well,
        jmcjr


        --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "james m. clark jr." <jameyboy@...> wrote:
        >
        > This is actually a repost that had no responce at precolumbian
        > inscriptions. At any rate, I thought ancient_waterways would find this
        > somewhat interesting.
        > ---------------------------------------------
        >
        > Was Orkney the ceremonial capital of ancient Britain?
        >
        > STEPHEN STEWART November 03 2003
        >
        > ORKNEY may have been the largest
        > prehistoric settlement or ceremonial
        > site in Britain, new research reveals
        > today.
        > Archaeologists using the latest
        > techniques to map under the soil
        > discovered the world heritage site
        > covering the Ness of Brodgar in Stenness,
        > was a massive centre of activity in Stone
        > Age times.
        > Orkney's landscape has largely managed to avoid the rigours of
        > industrialised farming and may yet yield its secrets about the
        > recently-surveyed site, which in terms of scale, puts the likes of
        > Stonehenge, Avebury and Skara Brae in the shade.
        > Orkney Archaeological Trust (OAT) used magnetometry, a geophysical
        > technique which measures magnetism in the soil, to trace the patterns
        > of activity left by prehistoric Orcadians.
        >
        > Rest at
        >
        > http://ww1.theherald.co.uk/news/3749-print.shtml
        > (not sure link is active after a year or two)
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > I would have said yes 2 (3 or 4)years ago(now).
        >
        > Would this settles the long debate in lingustics
        > over the word 'hundred' that Tacitus referred
        > to in his book on Britain and Germany?
        >
        > Tacitus-On Britain and Germany 1948-1967 by H. Mattingly
        >
        > "In several passages Tacitus speaks of 'the hundred'
        > in idiomatic senses which modern scholars have found
        > hard to understand, but the suggestion that he was
        > misunderstanding the word hundred, meaning district
        > will not do. Neither in Germany nor Anglo-Saxon England
        > was the word so used till centuries later." (p.29 intro)
        >
        > "They dwell in a hundred Country districts and in virtue of
        > their magnitude count themselves chief of all the Suebi." -
        > Tactius;p.133
        >
        >
        > "The green, fertile islands with their mild climate and clever, boat-
        > building peoples, with the rich, bounding blood of the Picts and
        > Irish, the Norse and the Danes and Icelanders, to nourish their life-
        > stream. Orkney, with its hundred small beaches and harbours: the
        > crossroads where every merchant-ship rested, where every tax-boat
        > and warship and supply vessel ran for shelter in the wild, open
        > seaway between Norway and the Viking cities of Ireland; between
        > Norway and her colonies in the western isles, the ports of Wales and
        > the markets of western England, the wine road to Bordeaux and Loire,
        > the pilgrim road and the fighting road down to Spain and Jerusalem.
        >
        > Everyone had to pass by the islands of Orkney. And only seven little
        > miles separated Orkney from Caithness and the north part of Alba." -
        > king hereAFTER; by Dorthy Dunnett,
        > 1982, p.13.
        >
        >
        > Perhaps if someone like Dorthy Dunnett, a Scottish Medieval
        > historical novelist and mystery writter were noted for religious
        > ideas of the region, logical ocean current flow, we would have known
        > why the word hundred was so elusive for centuries where this mythical
        > district was, because Tacitus told us and he did his job 700 years
        > earlier prior to the first millennium.
        > The rest of us would have just passed right on by!! I can only wonder
        > if he only heard about this district, but I wouldn't think he would
        > want tell even, besides the Romans would have been crushed from all
        > sides- Maybe he only visited once, besides this district isn't the
        > motherland of Germany or England after all.
        >
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