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Re: Feels like Old Home

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  • Rick Osmon
    Chris, you re right. Collectively we have the needed skills to survive in a world without electronic communications. The hard part is sharing that knowledge
    Message 1 of 8 , Apr 8, 2008
      Chris, you're right. Collectively we have the needed skills to survive in a world without electronic communications. The hard part is sharing that knowledge after the collapse of mass communications and easy transportation....

      In that event, I'm set up pretty well with low tech equipment,  e.g., blacksmithing tools, meat processing tools, a big fish pond, and enough land to subsist. If it ever happens, every member of this group is welcome, but you have to find your own way here.

      38.808889686794565, -87.079256772995



      --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Patenaude" <yacrispyubetcha@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Susan, Rick, Pam, Terry, Vince, so this is your secret pub off the fast
      > track! Hi y'all! Just signed up... peeked at some of the member
      > profiles for a few of the names i dont recognize. Where have i been?
      > Put the down Earth talents of this group together and we'd survive any
      > techno-collapse. I'm honored to be in such skilled company. Mitakuye
      > Oyasin! BamaMniWakan-wabin! Anpetu kin washte!
      > -chris
      >
    • Vincent Barrows
      Here is a good article that was sent in the wotanging ikche. filename= CHEYENNE AND ARAPAHU CULTURE REVITALIZATION
      Message 2 of 8 , Apr 9, 2008
         
        Here is a good article that was sent in the wotanging ikche.
         
         
        filename="CHEYENNE AND ARAPAHU CULTURE REVITALIZATION"
         
         
        http://www.featherwarrior.com/uploads/April_1_08.pdf
         
         
        Revisiting, revitalizing culture
        Tribal members attend the first Cheyenne and Arapaho studies conference
        sponsored by the Northern Arapaho education department, Cheyenne and
        Arapaho Tribal College, Chief Dull Knife College, and Windriver Tribal
        College.
        By Virginia Richey,
        Production Assistant
        April 1, 2008
        Vivid accounts of history, warm words of encouragement, humor, and hope,
        as well as powerful presentations empower the minds of elders and youth
        during the first Cheyenne and Arapaho studies conference. The event was
        held March 20-21, 2008, in Denver Colo., at the history museum.
        The objective was to promote a better understanding of the relevance and
        importance of history, and its' affect on the future of both the Northern
        and Southern Cheyenne and Arapaho Tribes.
        Cheyenne and Arapaho Revisited - Conference March 20, 2008 "Pe'vevo'ona'o
        - Good morning," Quinton Roman Nose, director of the department of
        education said, " Thank you for coming," as he welcomed guest during the
        opening session.
        "Originally our ancestors would sit around a camp fire telling and
        sharing stories. They would also discuss what was best for the tribe. That
        is what we are here to do. Share information, motivate people, and
        generate ideas on the preservation, education and documentation of our
        tribes," Roman Nose added.
        During his welcome, Cheyenne and Arapaho Gov. Darrell Flyingman reminded
        guests, that at one time the northeastern part of Colorado was ancestral
        lands. He said the goal was to bring everyone together, to the place where
        it all began.
        "As far as I am concerned, we are all one tribe. Our ancestors walked
        this land, and we need to strive to make the Cheyenne and Arapaho a
        stronger and prouder nation," Flyingman said.
        Upon the completion of opening and welcoming remarks, Roman Nose
        introduced keynote speaker Dr. Richard Littlebear, president of Chief Dull
        Knife Tribal College, Lame Deer, Mont. Keynote Speaker Dr. Richard
        Littlebear
        Littlebear gave an inspirational speech on language preservation, and
        shared ideas for keeping indigenous languages alive.
        "My world was immersed in English.
        When I came off the reservation I totally bought into the English
        language and became a sole supporter of English, until 1980. I wrote a
        paper on why we should teach our language. It was then I slowly started to
        make a turn around," Littlebear said.
        Littlebear gave credit to education for learning the truth of the
        Cheyenne language, and encouraged others to enhance their language
        abilities.
        "Everything I was taught about our language was a lie. When the U.S.
        government acted to silence our languages, it was acknowledging how our
        languages empowered and united us when we spoke them. Our language is
        power, and it defines who we are and where we came from," he said.
        Littlebear said since he has become an advocate for language
        preservation and revitalization he has worked with various groups and
        organizations to help save the language of the beautiful Cheyenne people.
        He encouraged others to take an active role in their community and warned
        of the death to the linguistic blessing given by the Creator.
        "We that speak the language are getting older, so we need to cultivate
        the younger people. Younger people I want you to start thinking about our
        language as something powerful," Littlebear said, "If we don't we are
        disrespecting the power of our ancestors. I urge you to speak, think,
        convert, and write Cheyenne."
        In closing Littlebear initiated an exercise that required the audience's
        participation that showed not only the importance of language, but also,
        some said, motivated them to learn and teach their native language.
        "Nehoveoo'e'stse," he said, then a very small number of people stood up,
        while many were looking around with a lost sense of what was going on.
        "Ha'me'stoo'e," he then said, and those standing sat down. He continued with
        other words that only those who knew Cheyenne could understand. Smiling,
        Littlebear said, "For those of you who are linguistically challenged,
        I said to stand up, sit down, stand back up, stretch your arms, and clap
        your hands."
        The room filled with laughter when he added, "I do this to make sure I
        get a standing ovation."
        The morning session came to a close and a short break for lunch was
        given. After lunch there were workshops covering topics such as, language,
        surveys, tribal territories, book projects, and genealogy. Workshops
        Dr. Andrew Cowell, with the University of Colorado presented Arapaho
        Language, The workshop gave tools on learning to write and speak Arapaho.
        To learn more visit
        http://www.colorado.edu/csilw/newarapproj2.htm
        Educator Funston Whiteman and Vickie Krudwig, with Sweet Success Press Inc.
        presented Preservation through Print. It was an interactive workshop on
        preserving tribal histories through self-publishing projects, such as
        books, media, film, and graphics.
        Krudwig said, "Be aware of what your children are being taught, and what
        books their teachers are using. No one can teach the history of the
        Cheyenne better than the Cheyenne.
        We have got to get the history and evolution of the tribes documented.
        The time is now!" Whiteman is currently working on a Cheyenne history book.
        Michael and Gabriel Bell, C&A higher education employees conducted a
        language survey that measured fluency, explored possible services,
        determined hindering hardships of students in public schools, and attained
        general information of tribal students for comparison to other student
        populations.
        Although all of the workshops were very informative, the one that
        brought a tribal member to tears, and had standing room only was Paper
        Spirits, presented by Craig Moore, with the National Parks Service. Moore
        gave a slide show presentation, and oral account on genealogy. Elder Marie
        Whiteman said it best, "My mother would always tell me I'm related to
        different ones, but I didn't know how. This in-depth presentation helped
        give me a better knowledge of who I'm related to."
        As for the elder it brought to tears, she said, "It was touching to see
        and hear about some of my relatives from so long ago. How often we forget."
        A lot of the photos shown were from the Carlisle Indian School; they
        pictured many of the ancestors wearing clothes foreign to them, after
        being stripped of their native regalia.
        Moore said, "The goal of Founder Captain Richard Henry Pratt was to kill
        the Indian and save the man."
        After all sessions ended, friendly handshakes and smiles ended the day.
        Cheyenne and Arapaho Revisited - Conference March 21, 2008 Greetings
        welcomed participants back to the second day of the conference that
        wrapped up shortly after noon. Announcements were made, conference
        evaluations were distributed, and keynote speakers were introduced. Joint
        Speakers Dr. Henrietta Mann and Montoya Whiteman First president of the
        C&A tribal college Dr. Henrietta Mann and her daughter Montoya Whiteman
        teamed up for an insightful presentation on Bear Butte, one of the most
        sacred mountains to the Plains Indians. Scenic photos of the Black Hills,
        S.D. mountain practically breathed a spiritual connection into the room,
        as Mann gave a historical view of her and her mother's experience.
        "I was taught so many things about the mountain; one of the many things
        I was taught was that the mountain was female," Mann said, as she also
        acknowledged the teachings of Sweet Medicine.
        She completed her presentation, welcoming her daughter saying; "You have
        heard my historical view, and that of my mother now I want you to hear my
        daughter's view of the mountain." Whiteman then shared her experience, and
        brought awareness of the threats to Bear Butte.
        "Our sacred place is under attack from so many threats. It faces noise
        and traffic pollution, environmental issues, and even that of the human
        nature; those who visit with no respect," Whiteman said, "I encourage
        everyone to take their children to the mountain and teach them the sacred
        ways, because they are the ones that will be in charge of protecting it in
        the future." The program continued with a story telling presentation by
        Marlin Spoonhunter, president of the Wind River Tribal College.
        Dressed in full regalia Spoonhunter and associates danced to the beat of
        the drum as the story was first told in Arapaho and them translated to
        English.
        The morning session began to come to a close, and several participants
        gave testimonies and expressed their feelings about the conference.
        Executive Director of the Cheyenne Culture Center Lawrence Hart said,
        "This is the place where it all began, and it's good to be here. I have
        come to Denver many times to feel grounded. This was our place," he said,
        as he addressed conference goers and thanked them for traveling the
        distance to reunite.
        Again, the morning ended with friendly handshakes, and smiles, as the
        people began to leave; returning to the places they now call home.
        Copyright c. 2008 Cheyenne-Arapaho Tribal Tribune.
         

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      • Susan
        Welcome, Chris. It is a pleasure to have you as a member. I have often enjoyed your insights and obviously extensive subject matter expressed in posts to
        Message 3 of 8 , Apr 9, 2008
          Welcome, Chris. It is a pleasure to have you as a member. I have often
          enjoyed your insights and obviously extensive subject matter expressed
          in posts to the THOR and Ancient Vikings in America Yahoo groups.
          Since it is often that astute discussions at the above sites encompass
          global waterways and ancient navigation, and many here are members of
          the other discussion groups, we felt it wise Ancient Waterways Society
          not become a duplication of other groups.

          Soon after meeting MinnesotaStan at an Ancient Earthworks Society
          meeting at the UW Madison campus a few years ago, Stan created and hosts
          the Ancient Waterways Society. I'd been using the term for years when
          setting up small meetings and a personal "Ancient Waterways Society" web
          site. I'd derived the name from work by researchers and authors, Dr. Jim
          Scherz, Fred Rydholm, and David Hoffman.

          Neither of us can tend the Ancient Waterways Society site fulltime. Stan
          asked me to co-host and help control spam at the site. If many of your
          excellent letters and insights posted here go by without response, I
          hope members here do not feel slighted. There are half a dozen such
          posts now that are excellent, and I thank you all for continuning to
          send links, opinions, data, links to your research and web sites. etc.

          As an interconnector more than researcher, my apologies when
          well-presented ideas and information within your posts passes quietly
          beyond comprehension or acknowledgement. My hats when you here
          respond to each other's posts and/or extent particular subjects farther
          with each other. It is heartwarming to hear complimentary regard
          members of the THOR, Ancient Vikings, PreColumbian Inscriptions and
          other groups say about each other; thank goodness no one is in
          competition nor threatened by anyone else.

          Vince, excellent links on Cahokia and "Cheyenne and Arapahoe Culture
          Revitalization". Two years during the 1950'5 & 1960's I'd lived in
          Colorado and Arapahoe Basin area along the Continental Divide. The
          article got me thinking about ancient ones who'd dwelled there for
          millinnea.

          Hopefully our world is moving beyond nationalisms, societal and tribal
          divisions. As we are connecting across the Worldwide Web, our
          ancestors and we travel "International Waters" together along ancient,
          intercontinental waterways during times when changes seem to be
          occurring rapidly.

          Thanks for the excellent science, wisdom, and friendship here from you
          at this site.

          Susan.

          --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Patenaude"
          <yacrispyubetcha@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Susan, Rick, Pam, Terry, Vince, so this is your secret pub off the
          fast
          > track! Hi y'all! Just signed up... peeked at some of the member
          > profiles for a few of the names i dont recognize. Where have i been?
          > Put the down Earth talents of this group together and we'd survive any
          > techno-collapse. I'm honored to be in such skilled company. Mitakuye
          > Oyasin! BamaMniWakan-wabin! Anpetu kin washte!
          > -chris
          >
        • Chris Patenaude
          Fantacy scenerios are fun. i can skin deer and do it every year in the fall and winter. Technically speaking, know the steps of how to stretch, flesh and
          Message 4 of 8 , Apr 11, 2008
            Fantacy scenerios are fun.

            i can skin deer and do it every year in the fall and
            winter. "Technically" speaking, know the steps of how
            to stretch, flesh and cure the hide, but have not had
            the opportunity or necessity to make the leather
            myself. (We donate it to those guys that make gloves
            for charity.) Camp cooking i'm adroit at. Medicine
            herbs and edible wild plants from the Rockies to the
            Prairies i'm versed enuf in to keep fed, if
            monotonously (compared to techno-life).

            Low-power recurve and short range, i'm a pretty
            accurate archer. ie birds & small game if it came to
            it. At this point i only do target, not seeing any
            need to kill something if my fridge is already full.

            Sewing leathers, once they're made, is something i
            know how to do... make various styles of moccasins,
            garments etc.

            Making clothes is one thing, but i am past the
            physical strength stage in life to be able to erect
            fast, efficient shelter from raw matter, myself.
            (Sigh, i used to as a younger woman in Montana,
            survival adept and all. We all have a 'Golden Age' in
            us somewhere.) My brain knows how if there are
            stronger muscles to follow my directions. There's a
            repetoire of plants i know for vegetable fiber and
            therefor cordage, rope, structural lashing, as well as
            coarse weaving like belts, totestraps or rain-capes.

            i'm a 'beader' using modern threads and needles, doubt
            there will be much fine-work material to be had after
            any collapse without peaceful trade with other
            communities...times will be too desperate for that in
            the first period of anarchy.

            Rick.. curiosity point...you 'legally own' the land
            now, under todays rules. How would you keep it after
            established laws are gone? The County Sheriff (sans a
            job and any judicial system to stop him) and his
            weapons-toting deputies may decide 'he' likes your
            place and moves you off as he has the trained,
            uniformed 'dogs' to do it. Todays enforcer as the
            Public Servant becomes The Enforcer for hizzown self.

            Would our getting to your place as a group make any
            difference if you aren't there any more? Would the
            land be stripped of resources by other groups of
            people if we did, and it be a lost cause as for
            supporting 'us' as a supposed troupe?

            These statements and questions have a direct Forum
            geared association, not just chatter. Back throughout
            history, these are the social pressures and task
            skills of any small, esoterically 'peaceful' group who
            were up against a more violent, massive population of
            others, out to fend just for themselves.

            For all the facia dressing of 'civilization', we
            humans are still, no better than our Chimp cousins
            when it comes to barebones self or defined
            family/group identity. We make war at the drop of an
            insult, and go as far as to eat our dead children if
            pressured to a breaking point.

            Watching the Meerkats on Animal Planet is not an
            excercise in entertainment. The initial way to
            establish territory, when physical survival is at
            stake, is to have more bodies in your 'family' than
            the next group over. The fact that we ARE human and
            can verbally come to some sort of border agreement
            comes secondarily AFTER the physical show of
            securement.

            We as a species, for all the hope of growing up, have
            not advanced in attitude maturity when it's nip and
            tuck. The minute we lose the libraries and electronic
            storage of our historic past and find ourselves
            starting from scratch again, we will be destined to
            replay the old power-struggles once more.

            This is apparent even today in the Urban setting.
            Those youths, male and female, from broken
            backgrounds, who drop out of school, have no idea of
            social structure, cultural developments outside of
            their 'hoods'...join or form Gangs to claim their few
            blocks of 'turf' as their psychological security
            foundation. That is the core of Human status and
            condition of development in its Primal Format. It
            survives and displays itself even in the midst of the
            highest forms of 'civilization' and 'techno-life' our
            cities have to offer. That is the face of humanity for
            the first two generations after the collapse. Or more.

            Take a gangmember and give him an eyefull of how big
            the world really is with experience or travel, and the
            petty life of daily mini-crimes and trivial challenges
            of trying to beat 'the Man' in order to have a meal in
            the belly that night...become moot and baseless, with
            the bigger picture as comparison. The awareness opens
            the mind to alternate uses of one's energies, to more
            cooperative results. Schooling suddenly becomes much
            more attractive as a tool to an end, not an
            environment of domination (teachers)VS personal
            'freedom'(students).

            Here i lay some questions before the group. What are
            the forces and influences, factors or necessities that
            brings us to change a primal worldview, past
            instinctive 'survival of the species' thinking, and
            lead to eventual interaction with the rest of the
            globe? What gooses our butts to WANT to? Is
            'curiosity' enough? Is 'greed' as an instigator really
            all that bad?

            What got our own Ancient Ancestors to start
            cooperating instead of fighting with other humans in
            order to 'become' the great mariners? How can we take
            that 'element', what ever it is, and promote it to our
            own ends of survival after the collapse...as a
            pre-planned defensive strategy against barbarism?

            Is the 'main factor' a matter of establishing an
            inital strength of numbers, for a sense of security?
            From sense of security coming timeplay and wiggle room
            for logical planning over instinctive reaction?

            Is it knowing the local resources? Holding them in
            some fashion? Or is it knowledge of territory outside
            of the 'hood'? Would that knowledge only invite the
            challenge of invasion by force? Or would it mean
            peaceful trade? What would encourage the second over
            the first? How can that be encouraged in the face of
            someone who wants to simply take what you have?

            Where does education fit in? The power of script and
            potential to store info for the next generation when
            grampa is no longer there to tell his stories? Does
            that matter as much as knowing how to use an accurate
            bow, spear or sling? How will we retain the knowledge
            base when electronics dissolve? Then apply it to our
            benefit? ('Our' as a term expandable to all humans,
            not just this speculative group of 30 people.)

            Does the power-balance rest in 'technology' if that is
            what got us in trouble every other time humanity
            reached certain levels? What actually led humans up
            and out of the primal form to develop expansion and
            voyaging? Why is it so easy to fall back off the
            ladder as soon as we lose our History?

            Talk amongst yourselves... i've just got another
            concept that needs building based on the last remark.
            Hmmm, Crichton Miller's not on this list is he?
            There's something he said in his book "Golden Thread
            of Time" that has just duo-linked in my brain into
            this thought train. To get his response, too, it may
            take a slightly illicit cross-post over to
            Thor-HuntersOhioRock group. Lemme go see where this
            thread is taking me thru the side labyrinth.

            i'll be back.
            -chris

            --- Rick Osmon <ozman@...> wrote:

            > Chris, you're right. Collectively we have the needed
            > skills to survive
            > in a world without electronic communications. The
            > hard part is sharing
            > that knowledge after the collapse of mass
            > communications and easy
            > transportation....
            >
            > In that event, I'm set up pretty well with low tech
            > equipment, e.g.,
            > blacksmithing tools, meat processing tools, a big
            > fish pond, and enough
            > land to subsist. If it ever happens, every member of
            > this group is
            > welcome, but you have to find your own way here.
            >
            > 38.808889686794565, -87.079256772995
            >
            >
            >
            > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com,
            > "Chris Patenaude"
            > <yacrispyubetcha@...> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > Susan, Rick, Pam, Terry, Vince, so this is your
            > secret pub off the
            > fast
            > > track! Hi y'all! Just signed up... peeked at some
            > of the member
            > > profiles for a few of the names i dont recognize.
            > Where have i been?
            > > Put the down Earth talents of this group together
            > and we'd survive any
            > > techno-collapse. I'm honored to be in such skilled
            > company. Mitakuye
            > > Oyasin! BamaMniWakan-wabin! Anpetu kin washte!
            > > -chris
            > >
            >
            >





            __________________________________________________
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            Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
            http://mail.yahoo.com
          • Rick Osmon
            Hi Chris, I m fulfilling one of my more fantastic bents right now: Pat and I spent today in and around Kensington and Alexandria, MN, at and around the Olman
            Message 5 of 8 , Apr 14, 2008
              Hi Chris,

              I'm fulfilling one of my more fantastic bents right now: Pat and I
              spent today in and around Kensington and Alexandria, MN, at and
              around the Olman farm, and looking over a couple other interesting
              and possibly somehow related points of interest, passed about a
              hundred busines cards to folks who may or may not have wanted them.
              Tomorrow, Pat and I head into the Twin Cities with a somewhat
              depcrepit airplane in tow, will get the nickel tour of a certain
              forensic geology lab, and undertake some one on one ear wrestling
              with the lab operator...

              I am so glad to have been here, hope to repeat the trip, hope it
              leads to some long overdue answers, hope it also leads to a
              reciprocal visit or nine to my neck of the woods.

              I will post another reply to this thread once I am at home and not
              on a borrowed connection. Hopefully, I can then reply with the depth
              and sincerity your post deserves, but, for now, I just wanted to
              acknowledge that you asked me questions to which you have not yet
              received answers.

              Oz

              --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Chris Patenaude
              <yacrispyubetcha@...> wrote:
              >
              > Fantacy scenerios are fun.
              >
              > i can skin deer and do it every year in the fall and
              > winter. "Technically" speaking, know the steps of how
              > to stretch, flesh and cure the hide, but have not had
              > the opportunity or necessity to make the leather
              > myself. (We donate it to those guys that make gloves
              > for charity.) Camp cooking i'm adroit at. Medicine
              > herbs and edible wild plants from the Rockies to the
              > Prairies i'm versed enuf in to keep fed, if
              > monotonously (compared to techno-life).
              >
              > Low-power recurve and short range, i'm a pretty
              > accurate archer. ie birds & small game if it came to
              > it. At this point i only do target, not seeing any
              > need to kill something if my fridge is already full.
              >
              > Sewing leathers, once they're made, is something i
              > know how to do... make various styles of moccasins,
              > garments etc.
              >
              > Making clothes is one thing, but i am past the
              > physical strength stage in life to be able to erect
              > fast, efficient shelter from raw matter, myself.
              > (Sigh, i used to as a younger woman in Montana,
              > survival adept and all. We all have a 'Golden Age' in
              > us somewhere.) My brain knows how if there are
              > stronger muscles to follow my directions. There's a
              > repetoire of plants i know for vegetable fiber and
              > therefor cordage, rope, structural lashing, as well as
              > coarse weaving like belts, totestraps or rain-capes.
              >
              > i'm a 'beader' using modern threads and needles, doubt
              > there will be much fine-work material to be had after
              > any collapse without peaceful trade with other
              > communities...times will be too desperate for that in
              > the first period of anarchy.
              >
              > Rick.. curiosity point...you 'legally own' the land
              > now, under todays rules. How would you keep it after
              > established laws are gone? The County Sheriff (sans a
              > job and any judicial system to stop him) and his
              > weapons-toting deputies may decide 'he' likes your
              > place and moves you off as he has the trained,
              > uniformed 'dogs' to do it. Todays enforcer as the
              > Public Servant becomes The Enforcer for hizzown self.
              >
              > Would our getting to your place as a group make any
              > difference if you aren't there any more? Would the
              > land be stripped of resources by other groups of
              > people if we did, and it be a lost cause as for
              > supporting 'us' as a supposed troupe?
              >
              > These statements and questions have a direct Forum
              > geared association, not just chatter. Back throughout
              > history, these are the social pressures and task
              > skills of any small, esoterically 'peaceful' group who
              > were up against a more violent, massive population of
              > others, out to fend just for themselves.
              >
              > For all the facia dressing of 'civilization', we
              > humans are still, no better than our Chimp cousins
              > when it comes to barebones self or defined
              > family/group identity. We make war at the drop of an
              > insult, and go as far as to eat our dead children if
              > pressured to a breaking point.
              >
              > Watching the Meerkats on Animal Planet is not an
              > excercise in entertainment. The initial way to
              > establish territory, when physical survival is at
              > stake, is to have more bodies in your 'family' than
              > the next group over. The fact that we ARE human and
              > can verbally come to some sort of border agreement
              > comes secondarily AFTER the physical show of
              > securement.
              >
              > We as a species, for all the hope of growing up, have
              > not advanced in attitude maturity when it's nip and
              > tuck. The minute we lose the libraries and electronic
              > storage of our historic past and find ourselves
              > starting from scratch again, we will be destined to
              > replay the old power-struggles once more.
              >
              > This is apparent even today in the Urban setting.
              > Those youths, male and female, from broken
              > backgrounds, who drop out of school, have no idea of
              > social structure, cultural developments outside of
              > their 'hoods'...join or form Gangs to claim their few
              > blocks of 'turf' as their psychological security
              > foundation. That is the core of Human status and
              > condition of development in its Primal Format. It
              > survives and displays itself even in the midst of the
              > highest forms of 'civilization' and 'techno-life' our
              > cities have to offer. That is the face of humanity for
              > the first two generations after the collapse. Or more.
              >
              > Take a gangmember and give him an eyefull of how big
              > the world really is with experience or travel, and the
              > petty life of daily mini-crimes and trivial challenges
              > of trying to beat 'the Man' in order to have a meal in
              > the belly that night...become moot and baseless, with
              > the bigger picture as comparison. The awareness opens
              > the mind to alternate uses of one's energies, to more
              > cooperative results. Schooling suddenly becomes much
              > more attractive as a tool to an end, not an
              > environment of domination (teachers)VS personal
              > 'freedom'(students).
              >
              > Here i lay some questions before the group. What are
              > the forces and influences, factors or necessities that
              > brings us to change a primal worldview, past
              > instinctive 'survival of the species' thinking, and
              > lead to eventual interaction with the rest of the
              > globe? What gooses our butts to WANT to? Is
              > 'curiosity' enough? Is 'greed' as an instigator really
              > all that bad?
              >
              > What got our own Ancient Ancestors to start
              > cooperating instead of fighting with other humans in
              > order to 'become' the great mariners? How can we take
              > that 'element', what ever it is, and promote it to our
              > own ends of survival after the collapse...as a
              > pre-planned defensive strategy against barbarism?
              >
              > Is the 'main factor' a matter of establishing an
              > inital strength of numbers, for a sense of security?
              > From sense of security coming timeplay and wiggle room
              > for logical planning over instinctive reaction?
              >
              > Is it knowing the local resources? Holding them in
              > some fashion? Or is it knowledge of territory outside
              > of the 'hood'? Would that knowledge only invite the
              > challenge of invasion by force? Or would it mean
              > peaceful trade? What would encourage the second over
              > the first? How can that be encouraged in the face of
              > someone who wants to simply take what you have?
              >
              > Where does education fit in? The power of script and
              > potential to store info for the next generation when
              > grampa is no longer there to tell his stories? Does
              > that matter as much as knowing how to use an accurate
              > bow, spear or sling? How will we retain the knowledge
              > base when electronics dissolve? Then apply it to our
              > benefit? ('Our' as a term expandable to all humans,
              > not just this speculative group of 30 people.)
              >
              > Does the power-balance rest in 'technology' if that is
              > what got us in trouble every other time humanity
              > reached certain levels? What actually led humans up
              > and out of the primal form to develop expansion and
              > voyaging? Why is it so easy to fall back off the
              > ladder as soon as we lose our History?
              >
              > Talk amongst yourselves... i've just got another
              > concept that needs building based on the last remark.
              > Hmmm, Crichton Miller's not on this list is he?
              > There's something he said in his book "Golden Thread
              > of Time" that has just duo-linked in my brain into
              > this thought train. To get his response, too, it may
              > take a slightly illicit cross-post over to
              > Thor-HuntersOhioRock group. Lemme go see where this
              > thread is taking me thru the side labyrinth.
              >
              > i'll be back.
              > -chris
              >
              > --- Rick Osmon <ozman@...> wrote:
              >
              > > Chris, you're right. Collectively we have the needed
              > > skills to survive
              > > in a world without electronic communications. The
              > > hard part is sharing
              > > that knowledge after the collapse of mass
              > > communications and easy
              > > transportation....
              > >
              > > In that event, I'm set up pretty well with low tech
              > > equipment, e.g.,
              > > blacksmithing tools, meat processing tools, a big
              > > fish pond, and enough
              > > land to subsist. If it ever happens, every member of
              > > this group is
              > > welcome, but you have to find your own way here.
              > >
              > > 38.808889686794565, -87.079256772995
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com,
              > > "Chris Patenaude"
              > > <yacrispyubetcha@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Susan, Rick, Pam, Terry, Vince, so this is your
              > > secret pub off the
              > > fast
              > > > track! Hi y'all! Just signed up... peeked at some
              > > of the member
              > > > profiles for a few of the names i dont recognize.
              > > Where have i been?
              > > > Put the down Earth talents of this group together
              > > and we'd survive any
              > > > techno-collapse. I'm honored to be in such skilled
              > > company. Mitakuye
              > > > Oyasin! BamaMniWakan-wabin! Anpetu kin washte!
              > > > -chris
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > __________________________________________________
              > Do You Yahoo!?
              > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
              > http://mail.yahoo.com
              >
            • Rick Osmon
              Hi Chris, Things have settled enough for me to address a couple of your concerns / questions (valid ones, I might add). How do I keep the man at bay? First,
              Message 6 of 8 , Apr 20, 2008
                Hi Chris,

                Things have settled enough for me to address a couple of your concerns / questions (valid ones, I might add).

                How do I keep "the man" at bay?

                First, it is not the local enforcement officers that are a concern for me. The current local sheriff and the two immediate predecessors were schoolmates of mine.  One of the county dispatchers is my closest neighbor. Another deputy lives less than a mile from here and a Indiana State Police Trooper lives within sight. Two of those already hunt and fish on my place with permission. In all cases, I know their families, their kids' names, etc. David Koresh had a similar situation in Waco, though, so nothing is assured at other levels, ever. But the Branch Davidian debacle didn't occur at a time of widespread infrastructure and systemic breakdown, rather, it happened in front of the eyes of the world, much like the more recent incursion to the "polygamist" compound in Texas. In both those cases, the legal authority used the reason of  "protecting the children". Also, in both cases, the authorities also used the spin opportunities provided by mass media to justify their actions. In a world without mass media, that tool won't help them and sheer mass, rather than mass media,  would rule.

                Modern survivalists , we aren't the only ones thinking along these lines.

                "At this point i only do target, not seeing any  need to kill something if my fridge is already full. "
                I am of the same philosophy, but when the fridge has no electricity, the only fresh meat is freshly killed meat.  Salting, smoking, drying, and canning then become very important survival skills. I draw the line at eating possum, however, and I'm not fond of raccoon....I'm not fond of wild turkey, either, but seeing as that is one of the more prominent game species here, I can adjust.

                Much of the human population to the east and south of me is Amish. Low tech, subsistence living is the standard, not the exception.

                I think I'll invite Ted Nugent, too....

                Excuse me now, I have to place a seed order.

                Best

                Oz


                --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...> wrote:
                >
                > Fantacy scenerios are fun.
                >
                > i can skin deer and do it every year in the fall and
                > winter. "Technically" speaking, know the steps of how
                > to stretch, flesh and cure the hide, but have not had
                > the opportunity or necessity to make the leather
                > myself. (We donate it to those guys that make gloves
                > for charity.) Camp cooking i'm adroit at. Medicine
                > herbs and edible wild plants from the Rockies to the
                > Prairies i'm versed enuf in to keep fed, if
                > monotonously (compared to techno-life).
                >
                > Low-power recurve and short range, i'm a pretty
                > accurate archer. ie birds & small game if it came to
                > it. At this point i only do target, not seeing any
                > need to kill something if my fridge is already full.
                >
                > Sewing leathers, once they're made, is something i
                > know how to do... make various styles of moccasins,
                > garments etc.
                >
                > Making clothes is one thing, but i am past the
                > physical strength stage in life to be able to erect
                > fast, efficient shelter from raw matter, myself.
                > (Sigh, i used to as a younger woman in Montana,
                > survival adept and all. We all have a 'Golden Age' in
                > us somewhere.) My brain knows how if there are
                > stronger muscles to follow my directions. There's a
                > repetoire of plants i know for vegetable fiber and
                > therefor cordage, rope, structural lashing, as well as
                > coarse weaving like belts, totestraps or rain-capes.
                >
                > i'm a 'beader' using modern threads and needles, doubt
                > there will be much fine-work material to be had after
                > any collapse without peaceful trade with other
                > communities...times will be too desperate for that in
                > the first period of anarchy.
                >
                > Rick.. curiosity point...you 'legally own' the land
                > now, under todays rules. How would you keep it after
                > established laws are gone? The County Sheriff (sans a
                > job and any judicial system to stop him) and his
                > weapons-toting deputies may decide 'he' likes your
                > place and moves you off as he has the trained,
                > uniformed 'dogs' to do it. Todays enforcer as the
                > Public Servant becomes The Enforcer for hizzown self.
                >
                > Would our getting to your place as a group make any
                > difference if you aren't there any more? Would the
                > land be stripped of resources by other groups of
                > people if we did, and it be a lost cause as for
                > supporting 'us' as a supposed troupe?
                >
                > These statements and questions have a direct Forum
                > geared association, not just chatter. Back throughout
                > history, these are the social pressures and task
                > skills of any small, esoterically 'peaceful' group who
                > were up against a more violent, massive population of
                > others, out to fend just for themselves.
                >
                > For all the facia dressing of 'civilization', we
                > humans are still, no better than our Chimp cousins
                > when it comes to barebones self or defined
                > family/group identity. We make war at the drop of an
                > insult, and go as far as to eat our dead children if
                > pressured to a breaking point.
                >
                > Watching the Meerkats on Animal Planet is not an
                > excercise in entertainment. The initial way to
                > establish territory, when physical survival is at
                > stake, is to have more bodies in your 'family' than
                > the next group over. The fact that we ARE human and
                > can verbally come to some sort of border agreement
                > comes secondarily AFTER the physical show of
                > securement.
                >
                > We as a species, for all the hope of growing up, have
                > not advanced in attitude maturity when it's nip and
                > tuck. The minute we lose the libraries and electronic
                > storage of our historic past and find ourselves
                > starting from scratch again, we will be destined to
                > replay the old power-struggles once more.
                >
                > This is apparent even today in the Urban setting.
                > Those youths, male and female, from broken
                > backgrounds, who drop out of school, have no idea of
                > social structure, cultural developments outside of
                > their 'hoods'...join or form Gangs to claim their few
                > blocks of 'turf' as their psychological security
                > foundation. That is the core of Human status and
                > condition of development in its Primal Format. It
                > survives and displays itself even in the midst of the
                > highest forms of 'civilization' and 'techno-life' our
                > cities have to offer. That is the face of humanity for
                > the first two generations after the collapse. Or more.
                >
                > Take a gangmember and give him an eyefull of how big
                > the world really is with experience or travel, and the
                > petty life of daily mini-crimes and trivial challenges
                > of trying to beat 'the Man' in order to have a meal in
                > the belly that night...become moot and baseless, with
                > the bigger picture as comparison. The awareness opens
                > the mind to alternate uses of one's energies, to more
                > cooperative results. Schooling suddenly becomes much
                > more attractive as a tool to an end, not an
                > environment of domination (teachers)VS personal
                > 'freedom'(students).
                >
                > Here i lay some questions before the group. What are
                > the forces and influences, factors or necessities that
                > brings us to change a primal worldview, past
                > instinctive 'survival of the species' thinking, and
                > lead to eventual interaction with the rest of the
                > globe? What gooses our butts to WANT to? Is
                > 'curiosity' enough? Is 'greed' as an instigator really
                > all that bad?
                >
                > What got our own Ancient Ancestors to start
                > cooperating instead of fighting with other humans in
                > order to 'become' the great mariners? How can we take
                > that 'element', what ever it is, and promote it to our
                > own ends of survival after the collapse...as a
                > pre-planned defensive strategy against barbarism?
                >
                > Is the 'main factor' a matter of establishing an
                > inital strength of numbers, for a sense of security?
                > From sense of security coming timeplay and wiggle room
                > for logical planning over instinctive reaction?
                >
                > Is it knowing the local resources? Holding them in
                > some fashion? Or is it knowledge of territory outside
                > of the 'hood'? Would that knowledge only invite the
                > challenge of invasion by force? Or would it mean
                > peaceful trade? What would encourage the second over
                > the first? How can that be encouraged in the face of
                > someone who wants to simply take what you have?
                >
                > Where does education fit in? The power of script and
                > potential to store info for the next generation when
                > grampa is no longer there to tell his stories? Does
                > that matter as much as knowing how to use an accurate
                > bow, spear or sling? How will we retain the knowledge
                > base when electronics dissolve? Then apply it to our
                > benefit? ('Our' as a term expandable to all humans,
                > not just this speculative group of 30 people.)
                >
                > Does the power-balance rest in 'technology' if that is
                > what got us in trouble every other time humanity
                > reached certain levels? What actually led humans up
                > and out of the primal form to develop expansion and
                > voyaging? Why is it so easy to fall back off the
                > ladder as soon as we lose our History?
                >
                > Talk amongst yourselves... i've just got another
                > concept that needs building based on the last remark.
                > Hmmm, Crichton Miller's not on this list is he?
                > There's something he said in his book "Golden Thread
                > of Time" that has just duo-linked in my brain into
                > this thought train. To get his response, too, it may
                > take a slightly illicit cross-post over to
                > Thor-HuntersOhioRock group. Lemme go see where this
                > thread is taking me thru the side labyrinth.
                >
                > i'll be back.
                > -chris
                >
                > --- Rick Osmon ozman@... wrote:
                >
                > > Chris, you're right. Collectively we have the needed
                > > skills to survive
                > > in a world without electronic communications. The
                > > hard part is sharing
                > > that knowledge after the collapse of mass
                > > communications and easy
                > > transportation....
                > >
                > > In that event, I'm set up pretty well with low tech
                > > equipment, e.g.,
                > > blacksmithing tools, meat processing tools, a big
                > > fish pond, and enough
                > > land to subsist. If it ever happens, every member of
                > > this group is
                > > welcome, but you have to find your own way here.
                > >
                > > 38.808889686794565, -87.079256772995
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com,
                > > "Chris Patenaude"
                > > yacrispyubetcha@ wrote:
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Susan, Rick, Pam, Terry, Vince, so this is your
                > > secret pub off the
                > > fast
                > > > track! Hi y'all! Just signed up... peeked at some
                > > of the member
                > > > profiles for a few of the names i dont recognize.
                > > Where have i been?
                > > > Put the down Earth talents of this group together
                > > and we'd survive any
                > > > techno-collapse. I'm honored to be in such skilled
                > > company. Mitakuye
                > > > Oyasin! BamaMniWakan-wabin! Anpetu kin washte!
                > > > -chris
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > __________________________________________________
                > Do You Yahoo!?
                > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                > http://mail.yahoo.com
                >
              • Chris Patenaude
                To give you my own frame of mind re diet choices, i am a fan of that chef on Travel Channel that goes around chowing down on the local foods around the world.
                Message 7 of 8 , Apr 28, 2008
                  To give you my own frame of mind re> diet choices,
                  i am a fan of that chef on Travel Channel that goes
                  around chowing down on the local foods around the
                  world.

                  I've tried and quite enjoyed insects, reptile,
                  marsupial, rodents large and small (squirrel to
                  beaver) any and all birds are on my ok list... they're
                  just fluffy reptiles.

                  That's why ozzy-goanna "tastes like chicken"... it IS.
                  That's why chickens act like predatory, omnivorous
                  velociraptors, they ARE. In a pinch, the household cat
                  and pet boa constrictor would be on the endangered
                  species list without a qualm (if it really got that
                  bad).

                  But i'd figure out how to fish or even eat the worms,
                  first, if the animal pal involved was a friend and
                  dependable personality. Both cats and "regular" dogs
                  tend to hunt well and bring home the prey to show off.
                  That would be handier than their protein value. (Goose
                  and golden egg observation.) The neighbor's yappy
                  lahsa-apsos might be first targets if there were no
                  social enforcers, however... ah ah! ;^)
                  -c

                  P.S. But agreed, if vegitarian, agrarian sources of
                  sustinance can be had, better yet. Pass the fried
                  grasshoppers and peas!

                  --- Rick Osmon <ozman@...> wrote:

                  >> "At this point i only do target, not seeing any
                  >> need to kill something if my fridge is already
                  >> full. "
                  > I am of the same philosophy, but when the fridge has
                  > no electricity, the
                  > only fresh meat is freshly killed meat. Salting,
                  > smoking, drying, and
                  > canning then become very important survival skills.
                  > I draw the line at
                  > eating possum, however, and I'm not fond of
                  > raccoon....I'm not fond of
                  > wild turkey, either, but seeing as that is one of
                  > the more prominent
                  > game species here, I can adjust.
                  >
                  > Much of the human population to the east and south
                  > of me is Amish. Low
                  > tech, subsistence living is the standard, not the
                  > exception.
                  >
                  > I think I'll invite Ted Nugent, too....
                  >
                  > Excuse me now, I have to place a seed order.
                  >
                  > Best
                  >
                  > Oz



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