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  • Chris Patenaude
    Susan, Rick, Pam, Terry, Vince, so this is your secret pub off the fast track! Hi y all! Just signed up... peeked at some of the member profiles for a few of
    Message 1 of 8 , Apr 7, 2008
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      Susan, Rick, Pam, Terry, Vince, so this is your secret pub off the fast
      track! Hi y'all! Just signed up... peeked at some of the member
      profiles for a few of the names i dont recognize. Where have i been?
      Put the down Earth talents of this group together and we'd survive any
      techno-collapse. I'm honored to be in such skilled company. Mitakuye
      Oyasin! BamaMniWakan-wabin! Anpetu kin washte!
      -chris
    • Rick Osmon
      Chris, you re right. Collectively we have the needed skills to survive in a world without electronic communications. The hard part is sharing that knowledge
      Message 2 of 8 , Apr 8, 2008
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        Chris, you're right. Collectively we have the needed skills to survive in a world without electronic communications. The hard part is sharing that knowledge after the collapse of mass communications and easy transportation....

        In that event, I'm set up pretty well with low tech equipment,  e.g., blacksmithing tools, meat processing tools, a big fish pond, and enough land to subsist. If it ever happens, every member of this group is welcome, but you have to find your own way here.

        38.808889686794565, -87.079256772995



        --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Patenaude" <yacrispyubetcha@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Susan, Rick, Pam, Terry, Vince, so this is your secret pub off the fast
        > track! Hi y'all! Just signed up... peeked at some of the member
        > profiles for a few of the names i dont recognize. Where have i been?
        > Put the down Earth talents of this group together and we'd survive any
        > techno-collapse. I'm honored to be in such skilled company. Mitakuye
        > Oyasin! BamaMniWakan-wabin! Anpetu kin washte!
        > -chris
        >
      • Vincent Barrows
        Here is a good article that was sent in the wotanging ikche. filename= CHEYENNE AND ARAPAHU CULTURE REVITALIZATION
        Message 3 of 8 , Apr 9, 2008
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          Here is a good article that was sent in the wotanging ikche.
           
           
          filename="CHEYENNE AND ARAPAHU CULTURE REVITALIZATION"
           
           
          http://www.featherwarrior.com/uploads/April_1_08.pdf
           
           
          Revisiting, revitalizing culture
          Tribal members attend the first Cheyenne and Arapaho studies conference
          sponsored by the Northern Arapaho education department, Cheyenne and
          Arapaho Tribal College, Chief Dull Knife College, and Windriver Tribal
          College.
          By Virginia Richey,
          Production Assistant
          April 1, 2008
          Vivid accounts of history, warm words of encouragement, humor, and hope,
          as well as powerful presentations empower the minds of elders and youth
          during the first Cheyenne and Arapaho studies conference. The event was
          held March 20-21, 2008, in Denver Colo., at the history museum.
          The objective was to promote a better understanding of the relevance and
          importance of history, and its' affect on the future of both the Northern
          and Southern Cheyenne and Arapaho Tribes.
          Cheyenne and Arapaho Revisited - Conference March 20, 2008 "Pe'vevo'ona'o
          - Good morning," Quinton Roman Nose, director of the department of
          education said, " Thank you for coming," as he welcomed guest during the
          opening session.
          "Originally our ancestors would sit around a camp fire telling and
          sharing stories. They would also discuss what was best for the tribe. That
          is what we are here to do. Share information, motivate people, and
          generate ideas on the preservation, education and documentation of our
          tribes," Roman Nose added.
          During his welcome, Cheyenne and Arapaho Gov. Darrell Flyingman reminded
          guests, that at one time the northeastern part of Colorado was ancestral
          lands. He said the goal was to bring everyone together, to the place where
          it all began.
          "As far as I am concerned, we are all one tribe. Our ancestors walked
          this land, and we need to strive to make the Cheyenne and Arapaho a
          stronger and prouder nation," Flyingman said.
          Upon the completion of opening and welcoming remarks, Roman Nose
          introduced keynote speaker Dr. Richard Littlebear, president of Chief Dull
          Knife Tribal College, Lame Deer, Mont. Keynote Speaker Dr. Richard
          Littlebear
          Littlebear gave an inspirational speech on language preservation, and
          shared ideas for keeping indigenous languages alive.
          "My world was immersed in English.
          When I came off the reservation I totally bought into the English
          language and became a sole supporter of English, until 1980. I wrote a
          paper on why we should teach our language. It was then I slowly started to
          make a turn around," Littlebear said.
          Littlebear gave credit to education for learning the truth of the
          Cheyenne language, and encouraged others to enhance their language
          abilities.
          "Everything I was taught about our language was a lie. When the U.S.
          government acted to silence our languages, it was acknowledging how our
          languages empowered and united us when we spoke them. Our language is
          power, and it defines who we are and where we came from," he said.
          Littlebear said since he has become an advocate for language
          preservation and revitalization he has worked with various groups and
          organizations to help save the language of the beautiful Cheyenne people.
          He encouraged others to take an active role in their community and warned
          of the death to the linguistic blessing given by the Creator.
          "We that speak the language are getting older, so we need to cultivate
          the younger people. Younger people I want you to start thinking about our
          language as something powerful," Littlebear said, "If we don't we are
          disrespecting the power of our ancestors. I urge you to speak, think,
          convert, and write Cheyenne."
          In closing Littlebear initiated an exercise that required the audience's
          participation that showed not only the importance of language, but also,
          some said, motivated them to learn and teach their native language.
          "Nehoveoo'e'stse," he said, then a very small number of people stood up,
          while many were looking around with a lost sense of what was going on.
          "Ha'me'stoo'e," he then said, and those standing sat down. He continued with
          other words that only those who knew Cheyenne could understand. Smiling,
          Littlebear said, "For those of you who are linguistically challenged,
          I said to stand up, sit down, stand back up, stretch your arms, and clap
          your hands."
          The room filled with laughter when he added, "I do this to make sure I
          get a standing ovation."
          The morning session came to a close and a short break for lunch was
          given. After lunch there were workshops covering topics such as, language,
          surveys, tribal territories, book projects, and genealogy. Workshops
          Dr. Andrew Cowell, with the University of Colorado presented Arapaho
          Language, The workshop gave tools on learning to write and speak Arapaho.
          To learn more visit
          http://www.colorado.edu/csilw/newarapproj2.htm
          Educator Funston Whiteman and Vickie Krudwig, with Sweet Success Press Inc.
          presented Preservation through Print. It was an interactive workshop on
          preserving tribal histories through self-publishing projects, such as
          books, media, film, and graphics.
          Krudwig said, "Be aware of what your children are being taught, and what
          books their teachers are using. No one can teach the history of the
          Cheyenne better than the Cheyenne.
          We have got to get the history and evolution of the tribes documented.
          The time is now!" Whiteman is currently working on a Cheyenne history book.
          Michael and Gabriel Bell, C&A higher education employees conducted a
          language survey that measured fluency, explored possible services,
          determined hindering hardships of students in public schools, and attained
          general information of tribal students for comparison to other student
          populations.
          Although all of the workshops were very informative, the one that
          brought a tribal member to tears, and had standing room only was Paper
          Spirits, presented by Craig Moore, with the National Parks Service. Moore
          gave a slide show presentation, and oral account on genealogy. Elder Marie
          Whiteman said it best, "My mother would always tell me I'm related to
          different ones, but I didn't know how. This in-depth presentation helped
          give me a better knowledge of who I'm related to."
          As for the elder it brought to tears, she said, "It was touching to see
          and hear about some of my relatives from so long ago. How often we forget."
          A lot of the photos shown were from the Carlisle Indian School; they
          pictured many of the ancestors wearing clothes foreign to them, after
          being stripped of their native regalia.
          Moore said, "The goal of Founder Captain Richard Henry Pratt was to kill
          the Indian and save the man."
          After all sessions ended, friendly handshakes and smiles ended the day.
          Cheyenne and Arapaho Revisited - Conference March 21, 2008 Greetings
          welcomed participants back to the second day of the conference that
          wrapped up shortly after noon. Announcements were made, conference
          evaluations were distributed, and keynote speakers were introduced. Joint
          Speakers Dr. Henrietta Mann and Montoya Whiteman First president of the
          C&A tribal college Dr. Henrietta Mann and her daughter Montoya Whiteman
          teamed up for an insightful presentation on Bear Butte, one of the most
          sacred mountains to the Plains Indians. Scenic photos of the Black Hills,
          S.D. mountain practically breathed a spiritual connection into the room,
          as Mann gave a historical view of her and her mother's experience.
          "I was taught so many things about the mountain; one of the many things
          I was taught was that the mountain was female," Mann said, as she also
          acknowledged the teachings of Sweet Medicine.
          She completed her presentation, welcoming her daughter saying; "You have
          heard my historical view, and that of my mother now I want you to hear my
          daughter's view of the mountain." Whiteman then shared her experience, and
          brought awareness of the threats to Bear Butte.
          "Our sacred place is under attack from so many threats. It faces noise
          and traffic pollution, environmental issues, and even that of the human
          nature; those who visit with no respect," Whiteman said, "I encourage
          everyone to take their children to the mountain and teach them the sacred
          ways, because they are the ones that will be in charge of protecting it in
          the future." The program continued with a story telling presentation by
          Marlin Spoonhunter, president of the Wind River Tribal College.
          Dressed in full regalia Spoonhunter and associates danced to the beat of
          the drum as the story was first told in Arapaho and them translated to
          English.
          The morning session began to come to a close, and several participants
          gave testimonies and expressed their feelings about the conference.
          Executive Director of the Cheyenne Culture Center Lawrence Hart said,
          "This is the place where it all began, and it's good to be here. I have
          come to Denver many times to feel grounded. This was our place," he said,
          as he addressed conference goers and thanked them for traveling the
          distance to reunite.
          Again, the morning ended with friendly handshakes, and smiles, as the
          people began to leave; returning to the places they now call home.
          Copyright c. 2008 Cheyenne-Arapaho Tribal Tribune.
           

          __________________________________________________
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        • Susan
          Welcome, Chris. It is a pleasure to have you as a member. I have often enjoyed your insights and obviously extensive subject matter expressed in posts to
          Message 4 of 8 , Apr 9, 2008
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            Welcome, Chris. It is a pleasure to have you as a member. I have often
            enjoyed your insights and obviously extensive subject matter expressed
            in posts to the THOR and Ancient Vikings in America Yahoo groups.
            Since it is often that astute discussions at the above sites encompass
            global waterways and ancient navigation, and many here are members of
            the other discussion groups, we felt it wise Ancient Waterways Society
            not become a duplication of other groups.

            Soon after meeting MinnesotaStan at an Ancient Earthworks Society
            meeting at the UW Madison campus a few years ago, Stan created and hosts
            the Ancient Waterways Society. I'd been using the term for years when
            setting up small meetings and a personal "Ancient Waterways Society" web
            site. I'd derived the name from work by researchers and authors, Dr. Jim
            Scherz, Fred Rydholm, and David Hoffman.

            Neither of us can tend the Ancient Waterways Society site fulltime. Stan
            asked me to co-host and help control spam at the site. If many of your
            excellent letters and insights posted here go by without response, I
            hope members here do not feel slighted. There are half a dozen such
            posts now that are excellent, and I thank you all for continuning to
            send links, opinions, data, links to your research and web sites. etc.

            As an interconnector more than researcher, my apologies when
            well-presented ideas and information within your posts passes quietly
            beyond comprehension or acknowledgement. My hats when you here
            respond to each other's posts and/or extent particular subjects farther
            with each other. It is heartwarming to hear complimentary regard
            members of the THOR, Ancient Vikings, PreColumbian Inscriptions and
            other groups say about each other; thank goodness no one is in
            competition nor threatened by anyone else.

            Vince, excellent links on Cahokia and "Cheyenne and Arapahoe Culture
            Revitalization". Two years during the 1950'5 & 1960's I'd lived in
            Colorado and Arapahoe Basin area along the Continental Divide. The
            article got me thinking about ancient ones who'd dwelled there for
            millinnea.

            Hopefully our world is moving beyond nationalisms, societal and tribal
            divisions. As we are connecting across the Worldwide Web, our
            ancestors and we travel "International Waters" together along ancient,
            intercontinental waterways during times when changes seem to be
            occurring rapidly.

            Thanks for the excellent science, wisdom, and friendship here from you
            at this site.

            Susan.

            --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Chris Patenaude"
            <yacrispyubetcha@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Susan, Rick, Pam, Terry, Vince, so this is your secret pub off the
            fast
            > track! Hi y'all! Just signed up... peeked at some of the member
            > profiles for a few of the names i dont recognize. Where have i been?
            > Put the down Earth talents of this group together and we'd survive any
            > techno-collapse. I'm honored to be in such skilled company. Mitakuye
            > Oyasin! BamaMniWakan-wabin! Anpetu kin washte!
            > -chris
            >
          • Chris Patenaude
            Fantacy scenerios are fun. i can skin deer and do it every year in the fall and winter. Technically speaking, know the steps of how to stretch, flesh and
            Message 5 of 8 , Apr 11, 2008
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              Fantacy scenerios are fun.

              i can skin deer and do it every year in the fall and
              winter. "Technically" speaking, know the steps of how
              to stretch, flesh and cure the hide, but have not had
              the opportunity or necessity to make the leather
              myself. (We donate it to those guys that make gloves
              for charity.) Camp cooking i'm adroit at. Medicine
              herbs and edible wild plants from the Rockies to the
              Prairies i'm versed enuf in to keep fed, if
              monotonously (compared to techno-life).

              Low-power recurve and short range, i'm a pretty
              accurate archer. ie birds & small game if it came to
              it. At this point i only do target, not seeing any
              need to kill something if my fridge is already full.

              Sewing leathers, once they're made, is something i
              know how to do... make various styles of moccasins,
              garments etc.

              Making clothes is one thing, but i am past the
              physical strength stage in life to be able to erect
              fast, efficient shelter from raw matter, myself.
              (Sigh, i used to as a younger woman in Montana,
              survival adept and all. We all have a 'Golden Age' in
              us somewhere.) My brain knows how if there are
              stronger muscles to follow my directions. There's a
              repetoire of plants i know for vegetable fiber and
              therefor cordage, rope, structural lashing, as well as
              coarse weaving like belts, totestraps or rain-capes.

              i'm a 'beader' using modern threads and needles, doubt
              there will be much fine-work material to be had after
              any collapse without peaceful trade with other
              communities...times will be too desperate for that in
              the first period of anarchy.

              Rick.. curiosity point...you 'legally own' the land
              now, under todays rules. How would you keep it after
              established laws are gone? The County Sheriff (sans a
              job and any judicial system to stop him) and his
              weapons-toting deputies may decide 'he' likes your
              place and moves you off as he has the trained,
              uniformed 'dogs' to do it. Todays enforcer as the
              Public Servant becomes The Enforcer for hizzown self.

              Would our getting to your place as a group make any
              difference if you aren't there any more? Would the
              land be stripped of resources by other groups of
              people if we did, and it be a lost cause as for
              supporting 'us' as a supposed troupe?

              These statements and questions have a direct Forum
              geared association, not just chatter. Back throughout
              history, these are the social pressures and task
              skills of any small, esoterically 'peaceful' group who
              were up against a more violent, massive population of
              others, out to fend just for themselves.

              For all the facia dressing of 'civilization', we
              humans are still, no better than our Chimp cousins
              when it comes to barebones self or defined
              family/group identity. We make war at the drop of an
              insult, and go as far as to eat our dead children if
              pressured to a breaking point.

              Watching the Meerkats on Animal Planet is not an
              excercise in entertainment. The initial way to
              establish territory, when physical survival is at
              stake, is to have more bodies in your 'family' than
              the next group over. The fact that we ARE human and
              can verbally come to some sort of border agreement
              comes secondarily AFTER the physical show of
              securement.

              We as a species, for all the hope of growing up, have
              not advanced in attitude maturity when it's nip and
              tuck. The minute we lose the libraries and electronic
              storage of our historic past and find ourselves
              starting from scratch again, we will be destined to
              replay the old power-struggles once more.

              This is apparent even today in the Urban setting.
              Those youths, male and female, from broken
              backgrounds, who drop out of school, have no idea of
              social structure, cultural developments outside of
              their 'hoods'...join or form Gangs to claim their few
              blocks of 'turf' as their psychological security
              foundation. That is the core of Human status and
              condition of development in its Primal Format. It
              survives and displays itself even in the midst of the
              highest forms of 'civilization' and 'techno-life' our
              cities have to offer. That is the face of humanity for
              the first two generations after the collapse. Or more.

              Take a gangmember and give him an eyefull of how big
              the world really is with experience or travel, and the
              petty life of daily mini-crimes and trivial challenges
              of trying to beat 'the Man' in order to have a meal in
              the belly that night...become moot and baseless, with
              the bigger picture as comparison. The awareness opens
              the mind to alternate uses of one's energies, to more
              cooperative results. Schooling suddenly becomes much
              more attractive as a tool to an end, not an
              environment of domination (teachers)VS personal
              'freedom'(students).

              Here i lay some questions before the group. What are
              the forces and influences, factors or necessities that
              brings us to change a primal worldview, past
              instinctive 'survival of the species' thinking, and
              lead to eventual interaction with the rest of the
              globe? What gooses our butts to WANT to? Is
              'curiosity' enough? Is 'greed' as an instigator really
              all that bad?

              What got our own Ancient Ancestors to start
              cooperating instead of fighting with other humans in
              order to 'become' the great mariners? How can we take
              that 'element', what ever it is, and promote it to our
              own ends of survival after the collapse...as a
              pre-planned defensive strategy against barbarism?

              Is the 'main factor' a matter of establishing an
              inital strength of numbers, for a sense of security?
              From sense of security coming timeplay and wiggle room
              for logical planning over instinctive reaction?

              Is it knowing the local resources? Holding them in
              some fashion? Or is it knowledge of territory outside
              of the 'hood'? Would that knowledge only invite the
              challenge of invasion by force? Or would it mean
              peaceful trade? What would encourage the second over
              the first? How can that be encouraged in the face of
              someone who wants to simply take what you have?

              Where does education fit in? The power of script and
              potential to store info for the next generation when
              grampa is no longer there to tell his stories? Does
              that matter as much as knowing how to use an accurate
              bow, spear or sling? How will we retain the knowledge
              base when electronics dissolve? Then apply it to our
              benefit? ('Our' as a term expandable to all humans,
              not just this speculative group of 30 people.)

              Does the power-balance rest in 'technology' if that is
              what got us in trouble every other time humanity
              reached certain levels? What actually led humans up
              and out of the primal form to develop expansion and
              voyaging? Why is it so easy to fall back off the
              ladder as soon as we lose our History?

              Talk amongst yourselves... i've just got another
              concept that needs building based on the last remark.
              Hmmm, Crichton Miller's not on this list is he?
              There's something he said in his book "Golden Thread
              of Time" that has just duo-linked in my brain into
              this thought train. To get his response, too, it may
              take a slightly illicit cross-post over to
              Thor-HuntersOhioRock group. Lemme go see where this
              thread is taking me thru the side labyrinth.

              i'll be back.
              -chris

              --- Rick Osmon <ozman@...> wrote:

              > Chris, you're right. Collectively we have the needed
              > skills to survive
              > in a world without electronic communications. The
              > hard part is sharing
              > that knowledge after the collapse of mass
              > communications and easy
              > transportation....
              >
              > In that event, I'm set up pretty well with low tech
              > equipment, e.g.,
              > blacksmithing tools, meat processing tools, a big
              > fish pond, and enough
              > land to subsist. If it ever happens, every member of
              > this group is
              > welcome, but you have to find your own way here.
              >
              > 38.808889686794565, -87.079256772995
              >
              >
              >
              > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com,
              > "Chris Patenaude"
              > <yacrispyubetcha@...> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > Susan, Rick, Pam, Terry, Vince, so this is your
              > secret pub off the
              > fast
              > > track! Hi y'all! Just signed up... peeked at some
              > of the member
              > > profiles for a few of the names i dont recognize.
              > Where have i been?
              > > Put the down Earth talents of this group together
              > and we'd survive any
              > > techno-collapse. I'm honored to be in such skilled
              > company. Mitakuye
              > > Oyasin! BamaMniWakan-wabin! Anpetu kin washte!
              > > -chris
              > >
              >
              >





              __________________________________________________
              Do You Yahoo!?
              Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
              http://mail.yahoo.com
            • Rick Osmon
              Hi Chris, I m fulfilling one of my more fantastic bents right now: Pat and I spent today in and around Kensington and Alexandria, MN, at and around the Olman
              Message 6 of 8 , Apr 14, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi Chris,

                I'm fulfilling one of my more fantastic bents right now: Pat and I
                spent today in and around Kensington and Alexandria, MN, at and
                around the Olman farm, and looking over a couple other interesting
                and possibly somehow related points of interest, passed about a
                hundred busines cards to folks who may or may not have wanted them.
                Tomorrow, Pat and I head into the Twin Cities with a somewhat
                depcrepit airplane in tow, will get the nickel tour of a certain
                forensic geology lab, and undertake some one on one ear wrestling
                with the lab operator...

                I am so glad to have been here, hope to repeat the trip, hope it
                leads to some long overdue answers, hope it also leads to a
                reciprocal visit or nine to my neck of the woods.

                I will post another reply to this thread once I am at home and not
                on a borrowed connection. Hopefully, I can then reply with the depth
                and sincerity your post deserves, but, for now, I just wanted to
                acknowledge that you asked me questions to which you have not yet
                received answers.

                Oz

                --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Chris Patenaude
                <yacrispyubetcha@...> wrote:
                >
                > Fantacy scenerios are fun.
                >
                > i can skin deer and do it every year in the fall and
                > winter. "Technically" speaking, know the steps of how
                > to stretch, flesh and cure the hide, but have not had
                > the opportunity or necessity to make the leather
                > myself. (We donate it to those guys that make gloves
                > for charity.) Camp cooking i'm adroit at. Medicine
                > herbs and edible wild plants from the Rockies to the
                > Prairies i'm versed enuf in to keep fed, if
                > monotonously (compared to techno-life).
                >
                > Low-power recurve and short range, i'm a pretty
                > accurate archer. ie birds & small game if it came to
                > it. At this point i only do target, not seeing any
                > need to kill something if my fridge is already full.
                >
                > Sewing leathers, once they're made, is something i
                > know how to do... make various styles of moccasins,
                > garments etc.
                >
                > Making clothes is one thing, but i am past the
                > physical strength stage in life to be able to erect
                > fast, efficient shelter from raw matter, myself.
                > (Sigh, i used to as a younger woman in Montana,
                > survival adept and all. We all have a 'Golden Age' in
                > us somewhere.) My brain knows how if there are
                > stronger muscles to follow my directions. There's a
                > repetoire of plants i know for vegetable fiber and
                > therefor cordage, rope, structural lashing, as well as
                > coarse weaving like belts, totestraps or rain-capes.
                >
                > i'm a 'beader' using modern threads and needles, doubt
                > there will be much fine-work material to be had after
                > any collapse without peaceful trade with other
                > communities...times will be too desperate for that in
                > the first period of anarchy.
                >
                > Rick.. curiosity point...you 'legally own' the land
                > now, under todays rules. How would you keep it after
                > established laws are gone? The County Sheriff (sans a
                > job and any judicial system to stop him) and his
                > weapons-toting deputies may decide 'he' likes your
                > place and moves you off as he has the trained,
                > uniformed 'dogs' to do it. Todays enforcer as the
                > Public Servant becomes The Enforcer for hizzown self.
                >
                > Would our getting to your place as a group make any
                > difference if you aren't there any more? Would the
                > land be stripped of resources by other groups of
                > people if we did, and it be a lost cause as for
                > supporting 'us' as a supposed troupe?
                >
                > These statements and questions have a direct Forum
                > geared association, not just chatter. Back throughout
                > history, these are the social pressures and task
                > skills of any small, esoterically 'peaceful' group who
                > were up against a more violent, massive population of
                > others, out to fend just for themselves.
                >
                > For all the facia dressing of 'civilization', we
                > humans are still, no better than our Chimp cousins
                > when it comes to barebones self or defined
                > family/group identity. We make war at the drop of an
                > insult, and go as far as to eat our dead children if
                > pressured to a breaking point.
                >
                > Watching the Meerkats on Animal Planet is not an
                > excercise in entertainment. The initial way to
                > establish territory, when physical survival is at
                > stake, is to have more bodies in your 'family' than
                > the next group over. The fact that we ARE human and
                > can verbally come to some sort of border agreement
                > comes secondarily AFTER the physical show of
                > securement.
                >
                > We as a species, for all the hope of growing up, have
                > not advanced in attitude maturity when it's nip and
                > tuck. The minute we lose the libraries and electronic
                > storage of our historic past and find ourselves
                > starting from scratch again, we will be destined to
                > replay the old power-struggles once more.
                >
                > This is apparent even today in the Urban setting.
                > Those youths, male and female, from broken
                > backgrounds, who drop out of school, have no idea of
                > social structure, cultural developments outside of
                > their 'hoods'...join or form Gangs to claim their few
                > blocks of 'turf' as their psychological security
                > foundation. That is the core of Human status and
                > condition of development in its Primal Format. It
                > survives and displays itself even in the midst of the
                > highest forms of 'civilization' and 'techno-life' our
                > cities have to offer. That is the face of humanity for
                > the first two generations after the collapse. Or more.
                >
                > Take a gangmember and give him an eyefull of how big
                > the world really is with experience or travel, and the
                > petty life of daily mini-crimes and trivial challenges
                > of trying to beat 'the Man' in order to have a meal in
                > the belly that night...become moot and baseless, with
                > the bigger picture as comparison. The awareness opens
                > the mind to alternate uses of one's energies, to more
                > cooperative results. Schooling suddenly becomes much
                > more attractive as a tool to an end, not an
                > environment of domination (teachers)VS personal
                > 'freedom'(students).
                >
                > Here i lay some questions before the group. What are
                > the forces and influences, factors or necessities that
                > brings us to change a primal worldview, past
                > instinctive 'survival of the species' thinking, and
                > lead to eventual interaction with the rest of the
                > globe? What gooses our butts to WANT to? Is
                > 'curiosity' enough? Is 'greed' as an instigator really
                > all that bad?
                >
                > What got our own Ancient Ancestors to start
                > cooperating instead of fighting with other humans in
                > order to 'become' the great mariners? How can we take
                > that 'element', what ever it is, and promote it to our
                > own ends of survival after the collapse...as a
                > pre-planned defensive strategy against barbarism?
                >
                > Is the 'main factor' a matter of establishing an
                > inital strength of numbers, for a sense of security?
                > From sense of security coming timeplay and wiggle room
                > for logical planning over instinctive reaction?
                >
                > Is it knowing the local resources? Holding them in
                > some fashion? Or is it knowledge of territory outside
                > of the 'hood'? Would that knowledge only invite the
                > challenge of invasion by force? Or would it mean
                > peaceful trade? What would encourage the second over
                > the first? How can that be encouraged in the face of
                > someone who wants to simply take what you have?
                >
                > Where does education fit in? The power of script and
                > potential to store info for the next generation when
                > grampa is no longer there to tell his stories? Does
                > that matter as much as knowing how to use an accurate
                > bow, spear or sling? How will we retain the knowledge
                > base when electronics dissolve? Then apply it to our
                > benefit? ('Our' as a term expandable to all humans,
                > not just this speculative group of 30 people.)
                >
                > Does the power-balance rest in 'technology' if that is
                > what got us in trouble every other time humanity
                > reached certain levels? What actually led humans up
                > and out of the primal form to develop expansion and
                > voyaging? Why is it so easy to fall back off the
                > ladder as soon as we lose our History?
                >
                > Talk amongst yourselves... i've just got another
                > concept that needs building based on the last remark.
                > Hmmm, Crichton Miller's not on this list is he?
                > There's something he said in his book "Golden Thread
                > of Time" that has just duo-linked in my brain into
                > this thought train. To get his response, too, it may
                > take a slightly illicit cross-post over to
                > Thor-HuntersOhioRock group. Lemme go see where this
                > thread is taking me thru the side labyrinth.
                >
                > i'll be back.
                > -chris
                >
                > --- Rick Osmon <ozman@...> wrote:
                >
                > > Chris, you're right. Collectively we have the needed
                > > skills to survive
                > > in a world without electronic communications. The
                > > hard part is sharing
                > > that knowledge after the collapse of mass
                > > communications and easy
                > > transportation....
                > >
                > > In that event, I'm set up pretty well with low tech
                > > equipment, e.g.,
                > > blacksmithing tools, meat processing tools, a big
                > > fish pond, and enough
                > > land to subsist. If it ever happens, every member of
                > > this group is
                > > welcome, but you have to find your own way here.
                > >
                > > 38.808889686794565, -87.079256772995
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com,
                > > "Chris Patenaude"
                > > <yacrispyubetcha@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Susan, Rick, Pam, Terry, Vince, so this is your
                > > secret pub off the
                > > fast
                > > > track! Hi y'all! Just signed up... peeked at some
                > > of the member
                > > > profiles for a few of the names i dont recognize.
                > > Where have i been?
                > > > Put the down Earth talents of this group together
                > > and we'd survive any
                > > > techno-collapse. I'm honored to be in such skilled
                > > company. Mitakuye
                > > > Oyasin! BamaMniWakan-wabin! Anpetu kin washte!
                > > > -chris
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > __________________________________________________
                > Do You Yahoo!?
                > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                > http://mail.yahoo.com
                >
              • Rick Osmon
                Hi Chris, Things have settled enough for me to address a couple of your concerns / questions (valid ones, I might add). How do I keep the man at bay? First,
                Message 7 of 8 , Apr 20, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hi Chris,

                  Things have settled enough for me to address a couple of your concerns / questions (valid ones, I might add).

                  How do I keep "the man" at bay?

                  First, it is not the local enforcement officers that are a concern for me. The current local sheriff and the two immediate predecessors were schoolmates of mine.  One of the county dispatchers is my closest neighbor. Another deputy lives less than a mile from here and a Indiana State Police Trooper lives within sight. Two of those already hunt and fish on my place with permission. In all cases, I know their families, their kids' names, etc. David Koresh had a similar situation in Waco, though, so nothing is assured at other levels, ever. But the Branch Davidian debacle didn't occur at a time of widespread infrastructure and systemic breakdown, rather, it happened in front of the eyes of the world, much like the more recent incursion to the "polygamist" compound in Texas. In both those cases, the legal authority used the reason of  "protecting the children". Also, in both cases, the authorities also used the spin opportunities provided by mass media to justify their actions. In a world without mass media, that tool won't help them and sheer mass, rather than mass media,  would rule.

                  Modern survivalists , we aren't the only ones thinking along these lines.

                  "At this point i only do target, not seeing any  need to kill something if my fridge is already full. "
                  I am of the same philosophy, but when the fridge has no electricity, the only fresh meat is freshly killed meat.  Salting, smoking, drying, and canning then become very important survival skills. I draw the line at eating possum, however, and I'm not fond of raccoon....I'm not fond of wild turkey, either, but seeing as that is one of the more prominent game species here, I can adjust.

                  Much of the human population to the east and south of me is Amish. Low tech, subsistence living is the standard, not the exception.

                  I think I'll invite Ted Nugent, too....

                  Excuse me now, I have to place a seed order.

                  Best

                  Oz


                  --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Fantacy scenerios are fun.
                  >
                  > i can skin deer and do it every year in the fall and
                  > winter. "Technically" speaking, know the steps of how
                  > to stretch, flesh and cure the hide, but have not had
                  > the opportunity or necessity to make the leather
                  > myself. (We donate it to those guys that make gloves
                  > for charity.) Camp cooking i'm adroit at. Medicine
                  > herbs and edible wild plants from the Rockies to the
                  > Prairies i'm versed enuf in to keep fed, if
                  > monotonously (compared to techno-life).
                  >
                  > Low-power recurve and short range, i'm a pretty
                  > accurate archer. ie birds & small game if it came to
                  > it. At this point i only do target, not seeing any
                  > need to kill something if my fridge is already full.
                  >
                  > Sewing leathers, once they're made, is something i
                  > know how to do... make various styles of moccasins,
                  > garments etc.
                  >
                  > Making clothes is one thing, but i am past the
                  > physical strength stage in life to be able to erect
                  > fast, efficient shelter from raw matter, myself.
                  > (Sigh, i used to as a younger woman in Montana,
                  > survival adept and all. We all have a 'Golden Age' in
                  > us somewhere.) My brain knows how if there are
                  > stronger muscles to follow my directions. There's a
                  > repetoire of plants i know for vegetable fiber and
                  > therefor cordage, rope, structural lashing, as well as
                  > coarse weaving like belts, totestraps or rain-capes.
                  >
                  > i'm a 'beader' using modern threads and needles, doubt
                  > there will be much fine-work material to be had after
                  > any collapse without peaceful trade with other
                  > communities...times will be too desperate for that in
                  > the first period of anarchy.
                  >
                  > Rick.. curiosity point...you 'legally own' the land
                  > now, under todays rules. How would you keep it after
                  > established laws are gone? The County Sheriff (sans a
                  > job and any judicial system to stop him) and his
                  > weapons-toting deputies may decide 'he' likes your
                  > place and moves you off as he has the trained,
                  > uniformed 'dogs' to do it. Todays enforcer as the
                  > Public Servant becomes The Enforcer for hizzown self.
                  >
                  > Would our getting to your place as a group make any
                  > difference if you aren't there any more? Would the
                  > land be stripped of resources by other groups of
                  > people if we did, and it be a lost cause as for
                  > supporting 'us' as a supposed troupe?
                  >
                  > These statements and questions have a direct Forum
                  > geared association, not just chatter. Back throughout
                  > history, these are the social pressures and task
                  > skills of any small, esoterically 'peaceful' group who
                  > were up against a more violent, massive population of
                  > others, out to fend just for themselves.
                  >
                  > For all the facia dressing of 'civilization', we
                  > humans are still, no better than our Chimp cousins
                  > when it comes to barebones self or defined
                  > family/group identity. We make war at the drop of an
                  > insult, and go as far as to eat our dead children if
                  > pressured to a breaking point.
                  >
                  > Watching the Meerkats on Animal Planet is not an
                  > excercise in entertainment. The initial way to
                  > establish territory, when physical survival is at
                  > stake, is to have more bodies in your 'family' than
                  > the next group over. The fact that we ARE human and
                  > can verbally come to some sort of border agreement
                  > comes secondarily AFTER the physical show of
                  > securement.
                  >
                  > We as a species, for all the hope of growing up, have
                  > not advanced in attitude maturity when it's nip and
                  > tuck. The minute we lose the libraries and electronic
                  > storage of our historic past and find ourselves
                  > starting from scratch again, we will be destined to
                  > replay the old power-struggles once more.
                  >
                  > This is apparent even today in the Urban setting.
                  > Those youths, male and female, from broken
                  > backgrounds, who drop out of school, have no idea of
                  > social structure, cultural developments outside of
                  > their 'hoods'...join or form Gangs to claim their few
                  > blocks of 'turf' as their psychological security
                  > foundation. That is the core of Human status and
                  > condition of development in its Primal Format. It
                  > survives and displays itself even in the midst of the
                  > highest forms of 'civilization' and 'techno-life' our
                  > cities have to offer. That is the face of humanity for
                  > the first two generations after the collapse. Or more.
                  >
                  > Take a gangmember and give him an eyefull of how big
                  > the world really is with experience or travel, and the
                  > petty life of daily mini-crimes and trivial challenges
                  > of trying to beat 'the Man' in order to have a meal in
                  > the belly that night...become moot and baseless, with
                  > the bigger picture as comparison. The awareness opens
                  > the mind to alternate uses of one's energies, to more
                  > cooperative results. Schooling suddenly becomes much
                  > more attractive as a tool to an end, not an
                  > environment of domination (teachers)VS personal
                  > 'freedom'(students).
                  >
                  > Here i lay some questions before the group. What are
                  > the forces and influences, factors or necessities that
                  > brings us to change a primal worldview, past
                  > instinctive 'survival of the species' thinking, and
                  > lead to eventual interaction with the rest of the
                  > globe? What gooses our butts to WANT to? Is
                  > 'curiosity' enough? Is 'greed' as an instigator really
                  > all that bad?
                  >
                  > What got our own Ancient Ancestors to start
                  > cooperating instead of fighting with other humans in
                  > order to 'become' the great mariners? How can we take
                  > that 'element', what ever it is, and promote it to our
                  > own ends of survival after the collapse...as a
                  > pre-planned defensive strategy against barbarism?
                  >
                  > Is the 'main factor' a matter of establishing an
                  > inital strength of numbers, for a sense of security?
                  > From sense of security coming timeplay and wiggle room
                  > for logical planning over instinctive reaction?
                  >
                  > Is it knowing the local resources? Holding them in
                  > some fashion? Or is it knowledge of territory outside
                  > of the 'hood'? Would that knowledge only invite the
                  > challenge of invasion by force? Or would it mean
                  > peaceful trade? What would encourage the second over
                  > the first? How can that be encouraged in the face of
                  > someone who wants to simply take what you have?
                  >
                  > Where does education fit in? The power of script and
                  > potential to store info for the next generation when
                  > grampa is no longer there to tell his stories? Does
                  > that matter as much as knowing how to use an accurate
                  > bow, spear or sling? How will we retain the knowledge
                  > base when electronics dissolve? Then apply it to our
                  > benefit? ('Our' as a term expandable to all humans,
                  > not just this speculative group of 30 people.)
                  >
                  > Does the power-balance rest in 'technology' if that is
                  > what got us in trouble every other time humanity
                  > reached certain levels? What actually led humans up
                  > and out of the primal form to develop expansion and
                  > voyaging? Why is it so easy to fall back off the
                  > ladder as soon as we lose our History?
                  >
                  > Talk amongst yourselves... i've just got another
                  > concept that needs building based on the last remark.
                  > Hmmm, Crichton Miller's not on this list is he?
                  > There's something he said in his book "Golden Thread
                  > of Time" that has just duo-linked in my brain into
                  > this thought train. To get his response, too, it may
                  > take a slightly illicit cross-post over to
                  > Thor-HuntersOhioRock group. Lemme go see where this
                  > thread is taking me thru the side labyrinth.
                  >
                  > i'll be back.
                  > -chris
                  >
                  > --- Rick Osmon ozman@... wrote:
                  >
                  > > Chris, you're right. Collectively we have the needed
                  > > skills to survive
                  > > in a world without electronic communications. The
                  > > hard part is sharing
                  > > that knowledge after the collapse of mass
                  > > communications and easy
                  > > transportation....
                  > >
                  > > In that event, I'm set up pretty well with low tech
                  > > equipment, e.g.,
                  > > blacksmithing tools, meat processing tools, a big
                  > > fish pond, and enough
                  > > land to subsist. If it ever happens, every member of
                  > > this group is
                  > > welcome, but you have to find your own way here.
                  > >
                  > > 38.808889686794565, -87.079256772995
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com,
                  > > "Chris Patenaude"
                  > > yacrispyubetcha@ wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > Susan, Rick, Pam, Terry, Vince, so this is your
                  > > secret pub off the
                  > > fast
                  > > > track! Hi y'all! Just signed up... peeked at some
                  > > of the member
                  > > > profiles for a few of the names i dont recognize.
                  > > Where have i been?
                  > > > Put the down Earth talents of this group together
                  > > and we'd survive any
                  > > > techno-collapse. I'm honored to be in such skilled
                  > > company. Mitakuye
                  > > > Oyasin! BamaMniWakan-wabin! Anpetu kin washte!
                  > > > -chris
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > __________________________________________________
                  > Do You Yahoo!?
                  > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                  > http://mail.yahoo.com
                  >
                • Chris Patenaude
                  To give you my own frame of mind re diet choices, i am a fan of that chef on Travel Channel that goes around chowing down on the local foods around the world.
                  Message 8 of 8 , Apr 28, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    To give you my own frame of mind re> diet choices,
                    i am a fan of that chef on Travel Channel that goes
                    around chowing down on the local foods around the
                    world.

                    I've tried and quite enjoyed insects, reptile,
                    marsupial, rodents large and small (squirrel to
                    beaver) any and all birds are on my ok list... they're
                    just fluffy reptiles.

                    That's why ozzy-goanna "tastes like chicken"... it IS.
                    That's why chickens act like predatory, omnivorous
                    velociraptors, they ARE. In a pinch, the household cat
                    and pet boa constrictor would be on the endangered
                    species list without a qualm (if it really got that
                    bad).

                    But i'd figure out how to fish or even eat the worms,
                    first, if the animal pal involved was a friend and
                    dependable personality. Both cats and "regular" dogs
                    tend to hunt well and bring home the prey to show off.
                    That would be handier than their protein value. (Goose
                    and golden egg observation.) The neighbor's yappy
                    lahsa-apsos might be first targets if there were no
                    social enforcers, however... ah ah! ;^)
                    -c

                    P.S. But agreed, if vegitarian, agrarian sources of
                    sustinance can be had, better yet. Pass the fried
                    grasshoppers and peas!

                    --- Rick Osmon <ozman@...> wrote:

                    >> "At this point i only do target, not seeing any
                    >> need to kill something if my fridge is already
                    >> full. "
                    > I am of the same philosophy, but when the fridge has
                    > no electricity, the
                    > only fresh meat is freshly killed meat. Salting,
                    > smoking, drying, and
                    > canning then become very important survival skills.
                    > I draw the line at
                    > eating possum, however, and I'm not fond of
                    > raccoon....I'm not fond of
                    > wild turkey, either, but seeing as that is one of
                    > the more prominent
                    > game species here, I can adjust.
                    >
                    > Much of the human population to the east and south
                    > of me is Amish. Low
                    > tech, subsistence living is the standard, not the
                    > exception.
                    >
                    > I think I'll invite Ted Nugent, too....
                    >
                    > Excuse me now, I have to place a seed order.
                    >
                    > Best
                    >
                    > Oz



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