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More than mtDNA between Altai and the Americas

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  • bigalemc2
    Wow. I just ran across this while ransacking the Internet for X-haplotype info - something I do from time to time: High-Resolution SNPs and Microsatellite
    Message 1 of 6 , Jan 14, 2008
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      Wow.

      I just ran across this while ransacking the Internet for X-haplotype info - something I do from time to time:

      High-Resolution SNPs and Microsatellite Haplotypes Point to a Single, Recent Entry of Native American Y Chromosomes into the Americas
      A total of 63 binary polymorphisms and 10 short tandem repeats (STRs) were genotyped on a sample of 2,344 Y chromosomes from 18 Native American, 28 Asian, and 5 European populations to investigate the origin(s) of Native American paternal lineages. All three of Greenberg's major linguistic divisions (including 342 Amerind speakers, 186 Na-Dene speakers, and 60 Aleut-Eskimo speakers) were represented in our sample of 588 Native Americans. Single-nucleotide polymorphism (SNP) analysis indicated that three major haplogroups, denoted as C, Q, and R, accounted for nearly 96% of Native American Y chromosomes. Haplogroups C and Q were deemed to represent early Native American founding Y chromosome lineages; however, most haplogroup R lineages present in Native Americans most likely came from recent admixture with Europeans. Although different phylogeographic and STR diversity patterns for the two major founding haplogroups previously led to the inference that they were carried from Asia to the Americas separately, the hypothesis of a single migration of a polymorphic founding population better fits our expanded database. Phylogenetic analyses of STR variation within haplogroups C and Q traced both lineages to a probable ancestral homeland in the vicinity of the Altai Mountains in Southwest Siberia. Divergence dates between the Altai plus North Asians versus the Native American population system ranged from 10,100 to 17,200 years for all lineages, precluding a very early entry into the Americas.

      Yeah, that's a mouthful, isn't it?

      Cogent points here:
      1. This is NOT about maternal mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA).  Haplotypes (at least as far as I have seen in regards to the peopling of the Americas) generally are delineated by the mtDNA.  The Y chromosome is the MALE chromosome.
      2. The X-haplotype is one of the rarest mtDNA haplotypes, and is found in only a few areas, all spread out and isolated from each other in the Old World, and mostly isolated from each other - but not always - in the New World.
      3. Edgar Cayce's time scheme for the sinking of Atlantis was 10,500 BCE, about 12,500 years ago.  While that is right in the millennium when the last 'Ice Age' ended, it is also right when Clovis man died off, along with the mammoths and a lot of other animal species.
      4. Cayce also told where the refugees from Atlantis went - and those are precisely the locations that the X-haplotype is found.
      5. One of those areas was the Gobi desert.  Cayce said that the Atlanteans went to the Gobi on more than one occasion while Atlantis was still viable.  Cayce said they went there in airships.
      6. The Altai region is right there in the Gobi desert.  Wikipedia in fact, says that
        • The desert basins of the Gobi are bounded by the Altay Mountains and the grasslands and steppes of Mongolia on the north, by the Tibetan Plateau to the southwest, and by the North China Plain to the southeast.
      This is amazing.

      The same locations in which are found the mtDNA X-haplotype (female) in Asia ALSO have the MALE C and Q haplotypes.

      The isolation and rarity of the X-haplotypes

      AND "divergence dates" range of the male C and Q haplotypes - supposedly when the people 'left'  the Altai region and came to the Americas - is precisely when Cayce said that BOTH areas were populated by those refugees from Atlantis.

      The current paradigms that there was no Atlantis and that settlers in America had to come from Eurasia force the main stream scientists to conclude that Altai's settlement came before America, and that the Americans with female X-haplotype and male C and Q haplotypes must have come from Altai.

      The Atlantean paradigm says that they both came from a common source.

      It also says that they got to the Gobi (and Egypt and the Pyrenees and maybe the Americas) by air ship, and that would explain why the haplotypes are so spread out and with almost no pockets of those haplotypes in between.

      Cayce's story of Atlantis and its survivors has, over time, NOT been refuted by subsequent findings, but has, instead, been rendered more possible.  For more info, see Mound Builders: Edgar Cayce's Forgotten Record of Ancient America .

      Now, the one thing that stands out on that page is that some unspecified major portion of the "nearly 96% of Native American Y chromosomes" were represented by those C and Q male haplotypes.

      Let's guess-timate, then, that 2/3 of the 96% are represented by the C and Q haplotypes.


      What does that mean?

      Does it mean that on the male side, 2/3 of the Native Indians in America have Altaian (Atlantean) male genetics?  Consider that most places in America are not even X-haplotype (Altaian) on their mother's side.  In the Iriquois, it is 25%, and even where the X-haplotype is found it is only at about 4% or less.  But in most of the Americas, the 'indigenous' peoples are of non X-haplotype.

      What could that possibly mean?  Are the scientists messing up the data?  Not likely on this.  If both are true, the Atlantean male genetics have wiped out any other group's male genes.

      OR, the assumptions being made are very wrong somehow about mtDNA and this male DNA.

      Does anyone else have a take on this?

      Steve
    • Susan
      Steve, Herb, Stan, and All, One more little point before I quickly run off to do an unexpected assignment that just came up. I only picked up one little thing
      Message 2 of 6 , Jan 15, 2008
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        Steve, Herb, Stan, and All,

        One more little point before I quickly run off to do an unexpected
        assignment that just came up.
        I only picked up one little thing on your excellent DNA analysis
        letter below and regard to the comment, #3 "Edgar Cayce's time scheme
        for the sinking of Atlantis was 10,500 BCE, about 12,500 years ago.
        While that is right in the millennium when the last 'Ice Age' ended,
        it is also right when Clovis man died off, along with the mammoths
        and a lot of other animal species".

        That SEMP/the global Suburban Energy Management Project site I keep
        haranguing about here and elsewhere, but may indicate SIGNIFICANT
        geological changes worldwide speaks of the last of five changes in
        the Nile/Mediterrannean at the above date 12,500 year ago.

        Herb, I want to mention also re: the NW Wisconsin anamolously
        patterned areas of stone and rock that perhaps you, UW Duluth Dr.
        George Rapp, or my retired Carlton College (MN) geology prof. Dr.
        Eiler Hendrickson, or someone at this site can find out water levels,
        Lake Superior 'glacial' rebound/uplife factors. Dr. Jim Scherz just
        called my on my cell phone, many of you remember his "Old
        Waterways..."paper I wrote exerpts from re: glacial rebound of land
        in Lake Superior region. Any input any of you can find out so we can
        see if and when the approximate region(s) you are talking about were
        above the surface enough for placement by an alleged group of human
        beings from historic or ancient times. But the drastically changing
        water levels over time, globally, is right up the alley of this group
        and I wish there were some maps available. Steve Hilgren mentioned
        Minnesota maps available via some of his posts last spring to the
        group. (Since I am most interested in very archael, ancient human
        history, my personal biases hope if there turns out to be a 'road' in
        NW Wisconsin, that it is older than historic mining/logging and
        even "Viking". But more into the very ancient (and what I believe to
        have been relatively peaceful, intertranscontinental/global group of
        the ancient Copper Culture, who had common "grounds" of interest.

        One more thing about Steve's #3 analysis above re: Clovis. Stan,
        don't you own property near a supposedly Clovis or Pre-Clovis site in
        Minnesota that Univ. of Wisc.-Oshkosh? researchers expressed interest
        once? Not sure what part of Minnesota this is and I haven't time to
        do a back Search previous AWS posts (via our Messages Page), but you
        brought it up awhile ago.

        Late for my job, good thing I always seem to have Grace periods among
        patient associates and employers,

        Susan

        --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "bigalemc2"
        <puppet@...> wrote:
        >
        > Wow.
        >
        > I just ran across this while ransacking the Internet for X-haplotype
        > info - something I do from time to time:
        >
        > High-Resolution SNPs and Microsatellite Haplotypes Point to a
        Single,
        > Recent Entry of Native American Y Chromosomes into the Americas
        > <http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/21/1/164>
        > A total of 63 binary polymorphisms and 10 short tandem repeats
        (STRs)
        > were genotyped on a sample of 2,344 Y chromosomes from 18 Native
        > American, 28 Asian, and 5 European populations to investigate the
        > origin(s) of Native American paternal lineages. All three of
        > Greenberg's major linguistic divisions (including 342 Amerind
        > speakers, 186 Na-Dene speakers, and 60 Aleut-Eskimo speakers) were
        > represented in our sample of 588 Native Americans. Single-nucleotide
        > polymorphism (SNP) analysis indicated that three major haplogroups,
        > denoted as C, Q, and R, accounted for nearly 96% of Native American
        Y
        > chromosomes. Haplogroups C and Q were deemed to represent early
        Native
        > American founding Y chromosome lineages; however, most haplogroup R
        > lineages present in Native Americans most likely came from recent
        > admixture with Europeans. Although different phylogeographic and STR
        > diversity patterns for the two major founding haplogroups
        previously led
        > to the inference that they were carried from Asia to the Americas
        > separately, the hypothesis of a single migration of a polymorphic
        > founding population better fits our expanded database. Phylogenetic
        > analyses of STR variation within haplogroups C and Q traced both
        > lineages to a probable ancestral homeland in the vicinity of the
        Altai
        > Mountains in Southwest Siberia. Divergence dates between the Altai
        plus
        > North Asians versus the Native American population system ranged
        from
        > 10,100 to 17,200 years for all lineages, precluding a very early
        entry
        > into the Americas.
        >
        > Yeah, that's a mouthful, isn't it?
        >
        > Cogent points here:
        >
        > 1. This is NOT about maternal mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA).
        Haplotypes
        > (at least as far as I have seen in regards to the peopling of the
        > Americas) generally are delineated by the mtDNA. The Y chromosome
        is
        > the MALE chromosome.
        >
        > 2. The X-haplotype is one of the rarest mtDNA haplotypes, and is
        > found in only a few areas, all spread out and isolated from each
        other
        > in the Old World, and mostly isolated from each other - but not
        always -
        > in the New World.
        > 3. Edgar Cayce's time scheme for the sinking of Atlantis was
        10,500
        > BCE, about 12,500 years ago. While that is right in the millennium
        when
        > the last 'Ice Age' ended, it is also right when Clovis man died off,
        > along with the mammoths and a lot of other animal species.
        > 4. Cayce also told where the refugees from Atlantis went - and
        those
        > are precisely the locations that the X-haplotype is found.
        > 5. One of those areas was the Gobi desert. Cayce said that the
        > Atlanteans went to the Gobi on more than one occasion while
        Atlantis was
        > still viable. Cayce said they went there in airships.
        > 6. The Altai region is right there in the Gobi desert.
        Wikipedia in
        > fact, says that
        >
        > * The desert basins of the Gobi are bounded by the Altay
        Mountains
        > and the grasslands and steppes of Mongolia on the north, by the
        Tibetan
        > Plateau to the southwest, and by the North China Plain to the
        southeast.
        > This is amazing.
        >
        > The same locations in which are found the mtDNA X-haplotype
        (female) in
        > Asia ALSO have the MALE C and Q haplotypes.
        >
        > The isolation and rarity of the X-haplotypes
        >
        > AND "divergence dates" range of the male C and Q haplotypes -
        supposedly
        > when the people 'left' the Altai region and came to the Americas -
        is
        > precisely when Cayce said that BOTH areas were populated by those
        > refugees from Atlantis.
        >
        > The current paradigms that there was no Atlantis and that settlers
        in
        > America had to come from Eurasia force the main stream scientists to
        > conclude that Altai's settlement came before America, and that the
        > Americans with female X-haplotype and male C and Q haplotypes must
        have
        > come from Altai.
        >
        > The Atlantean paradigm says that they both came from a common
        source.
        >
        > It also says that they got to the Gobi (and Egypt and the Pyrenees
        and
        > maybe the Americas) by air ship, and that would explain why the
        > haplotypes are so spread out and with almost no pockets of those
        > haplotypes in between.
        >
        > Cayce's story of Atlantis and its survivors has, over time, NOT been
        > refuted by subsequent findings, but has, instead, been rendered more
        > possible. For more info, see Mound Builders: Edgar Cayce's
        Forgotten
        > Record of Ancient America
        > <http://www.amazon.com/Mound-Builders-Forgotten-Ancient-
        America/dp/09408\
        > 29363/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200298019&sr=8-3> .
        >
        > Now, the one thing that stands out on that page is that some
        unspecified
        > major portion of the "nearly 96% of Native American Y chromosomes"
        were
        > represented by those C and Q male haplotypes.
        >
        > Let's guess-timate, then, that 2/3 of the 96% are represented by
        the C
        > and Q haplotypes.
        >
        > What does that mean?
        >
        > Does it mean that on the male side, 2/3 of the Native Indians in
        America
        > have Altaian (Atlantean) male genetics? Consider that most places
        in
        > America are not even X-haplotype (Altaian) on their mother's side.
        In
        > the Iriquois, it is 25%, and even where the X-haplotype is found it
        is
        > only at about 4% or less. But in most of the Americas,
        the 'indigenous'
        > peoples are of non X-haplotype.
        >
        > What could that possibly mean? Are the scientists messing up the
        data?
        > Not likely on this. If both are true, the Atlantean male genetics
        have
        > wiped out any other group's male genes.
        >
        > OR, the assumptions being made are very wrong somehow about mtDNA
        and
        > this male DNA.
        >
        > Does anyone else have a take on this?
        >
        > Steve
        >
      • Susan
        All, I want to extend a welcome also to the new member from California. _____________ The reason I clicked into this link, is that, with Steve s permission, I
        Message 3 of 6 , Jan 17, 2008
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          All,
          I want to extend a welcome also to the new member from California.
          _____________
          The reason I clicked into this link, is that, with Steve's
          permission, I scanned and pasted his well-written post to a Halls of
          Atlantis web site I had joined several months ago for them to put in
          their archives, and possibly give a response. Turns out Steve is a
          longtime member there, as is Rick).

          I should have sent the Ancient Waterways link directly. Looking at
          Steve's beautifully executed letter below....how did you beautifully
          indent, add colors, italics, etc. to your post, Steve????
          Hasn't everyone here found that all posts within the Yahoo Group
          message sites are aawkward to read because sentences frequently get
          interrupted/abruptly space.

          How can we change FONT, size, etc. on these message boards as you did
          on the professional-looking post below? Does it take a special
          computer?

          Susan

          --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "bigalemc2"
          <puppet@...> wrote:
          >
          > Wow.
          >
          > I just ran across this while ransacking the Internet for X-haplotype
          > info - something I do from time to time:
          >
          > High-Resolution SNPs and Microsatellite Haplotypes Point to a
          Single,
          > Recent Entry of Native American Y Chromosomes into the Americas
          > <http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/21/1/164>
          > A total of 63 binary polymorphisms and 10 short tandem repeats
          (STRs)
          > were genotyped on a sample of 2,344 Y chromosomes from 18 Native
          > American, 28 Asian, and 5 European populations to investigate the
          > origin(s) of Native American paternal lineages. All three of
          > Greenberg's major linguistic divisions (including 342 Amerind
          > speakers, 186 Na-Dene speakers, and 60 Aleut-Eskimo speakers) were
          > represented in our sample of 588 Native Americans. Single-nucleotide
          > polymorphism (SNP) analysis indicated that three major haplogroups,
          > denoted as C, Q, and R, accounted for nearly 96% of Native American
          Y
          > chromosomes. Haplogroups C and Q were deemed to represent early
          Native
          > American founding Y chromosome lineages; however, most haplogroup R
          > lineages present in Native Americans most likely came from recent
          > admixture with Europeans. Although different phylogeographic and STR
          > diversity patterns for the two major founding haplogroups
          previously led
          > to the inference that they were carried from Asia to the Americas
          > separately, the hypothesis of a single migration of a polymorphic
          > founding population better fits our expanded database. Phylogenetic
          > analyses of STR variation within haplogroups C and Q traced both
          > lineages to a probable ancestral homeland in the vicinity of the
          Altai
          > Mountains in Southwest Siberia. Divergence dates between the Altai
          plus
          > North Asians versus the Native American population system ranged
          from
          > 10,100 to 17,200 years for all lineages, precluding a very early
          entry
          > into the Americas.
          >
          > Yeah, that's a mouthful, isn't it?
          >
          > Cogent points here:
          >
          > 1. This is NOT about maternal mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA).
          Haplotypes
          > (at least as far as I have seen in regards to the peopling of the
          > Americas) generally are delineated by the mtDNA. The Y chromosome
          is
          > the MALE chromosome.
          >
          > 2. The X-haplotype is one of the rarest mtDNA haplotypes, and is
          > found in only a few areas, all spread out and isolated from each
          other
          > in the Old World, and mostly isolated from each other - but not
          always -
          > in the New World.
          > 3. Edgar Cayce's time scheme for the sinking of Atlantis was
          10,500
          > BCE, about 12,500 years ago. While that is right in the millennium
          when
          > the last 'Ice Age' ended, it is also right when Clovis man died off,
          > along with the mammoths and a lot of other animal species.
          > 4. Cayce also told where the refugees from Atlantis went - and
          those
          > are precisely the locations that the X-haplotype is found.
          > 5. One of those areas was the Gobi desert. Cayce said that the
          > Atlanteans went to the Gobi on more than one occasion while
          Atlantis was
          > still viable. Cayce said they went there in airships.
          > 6. The Altai region is right there in the Gobi desert.
          Wikipedia in
          > fact, says that
          >
          > * The desert basins of the Gobi are bounded by the Altay
          Mountains
          > and the grasslands and steppes of Mongolia on the north, by the
          Tibetan
          > Plateau to the southwest, and by the North China Plain to the
          southeast.
          > This is amazing.
          >
          > The same locations in which are found the mtDNA X-haplotype
          (female) in
          > Asia ALSO have the MALE C and Q haplotypes.
          >
          > The isolation and rarity of the X-haplotypes
          >
          > AND "divergence dates" range of the male C and Q haplotypes -
          supposedly
          > when the people 'left' the Altai region and came to the Americas -
          is
          > precisely when Cayce said that BOTH areas were populated by those
          > refugees from Atlantis.
          >
          > The current paradigms that there was no Atlantis and that settlers
          in
          > America had to come from Eurasia force the main stream scientists to
          > conclude that Altai's settlement came before America, and that the
          > Americans with female X-haplotype and male C and Q haplotypes must
          have
          > come from Altai.
          >
          > The Atlantean paradigm says that they both came from a common
          source.
          >
          > It also says that they got to the Gobi (and Egypt and the Pyrenees
          and
          > maybe the Americas) by air ship, and that would explain why the
          > haplotypes are so spread out and with almost no pockets of those
          > haplotypes in between.
          >
          > Cayce's story of Atlantis and its survivors has, over time, NOT been
          > refuted by subsequent findings, but has, instead, been rendered more
          > possible. For more info, see Mound Builders: Edgar Cayce's
          Forgotten
          > Record of Ancient America
          > <http://www.amazon.com/Mound-Builders-Forgotten-Ancient-
          America/dp/09408\
          > 29363/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200298019&sr=8-3> .
          >
          > Now, the one thing that stands out on that page is that some
          unspecified
          > major portion of the "nearly 96% of Native American Y chromosomes"
          were
          > represented by those C and Q male haplotypes.
          >
          > Let's guess-timate, then, that 2/3 of the 96% are represented by
          the C
          > and Q haplotypes.
          >
          > What does that mean?
          >
          > Does it mean that on the male side, 2/3 of the Native Indians in
          America
          > have Altaian (Atlantean) male genetics? Consider that most places
          in
          > America are not even X-haplotype (Altaian) on their mother's side.
          In
          > the Iriquois, it is 25%, and even where the X-haplotype is found it
          is
          > only at about 4% or less. But in most of the Americas,
          the 'indigenous'
          > peoples are of non X-haplotype.
          >
          > What could that possibly mean? Are the scientists messing up the
          data?
          > Not likely on this. If both are true, the Atlantean male genetics
          have
          > wiped out any other group's male genes.
          >
          > OR, the assumptions being made are very wrong somehow about mtDNA
          and
          > this male DNA.
          >
          > Does anyone else have a take on this?
          >
          > Steve
          >
        • Rick Osmon
          Suz, When you click new topic or reply , you will see at the top of the box this phrase New! Compose your message with Rich-Text Editor (Beta)
          Message 4 of 6 , Jan 18, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Suz,

            When you click "new topic" or "reply",  you will see at the top of the box this  phrase

            "New! Compose your message with Rich-Text Editor (Beta)."

            That is where you will find all the controls you wanted. No special computer, but you do need a fairly up to date operating system (it won't run in Windows 98, e,g.)

            Oz


            --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan" <beldingenglish@...> wrote:
            >
            > All,
            > I want to extend a welcome also to the new member from California.
            > _____________
            > The reason I clicked into this link, is that, with Steve's
            > permission, I scanned and pasted his well-written post to a Halls of
            > Atlantis web site I had joined several months ago for them to put in
            > their archives, and possibly give a response. Turns out Steve is a
            > longtime member there, as is Rick).
            >
            > I should have sent the Ancient Waterways link directly. Looking at
            > Steve's beautifully executed letter below....how did you beautifully
            > indent, add colors, italics, etc. to your post, Steve????
            > Hasn't everyone here found that all posts within the Yahoo Group
            > message sites are aawkward to read because sentences frequently get
            > interrupted/abruptly space.
            >
            > How can we change FONT, size, etc. on these message boards as you did
            > on the professional-looking post below? Does it take a special
            > computer?
            >
            > Susan
            >
            > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "bigalemc2"
            > puppet@ wrote:
            > >
            > > Wow.
            > >
            > > I just ran across this while ransacking the Internet for X-haplotype
            > > info - something I do from time to time:
            > >
            > > High-Resolution SNPs and Microsatellite Haplotypes Point to a
            > Single,
            > > Recent Entry of Native American Y Chromosomes into the Americas
            > > <http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/reprint/21/1/164>
            > > A total of 63 binary polymorphisms and 10 short tandem repeats
            > (STRs)
            > > were genotyped on a sample of 2,344 Y chromosomes from 18 Native
            > > American, 28 Asian, and 5 European populations to investigate the
            > > origin(s) of Native American paternal lineages. All three of
            > > Greenberg's major linguistic divisions (including 342 Amerind
            > > speakers, 186 Na-Dene speakers, and 60 Aleut-Eskimo speakers) were
            > > represented in our sample of 588 Native Americans. Single-nucleotide
            > > polymorphism (SNP) analysis indicated that three major haplogroups,
            > > denoted as C, Q, and R, accounted for nearly 96% of Native American
            > Y
            > > chromosomes. Haplogroups C and Q were deemed to represent early
            > Native
            > > American founding Y chromosome lineages; however, most haplogroup R
            > > lineages present in Native Americans most likely came from recent
            > > admixture with Europeans. Although different phylogeographic and STR
            > > diversity patterns for the two major founding haplogroups
            > previously led
            > > to the inference that they were carried from Asia to the Americas
            > > separately, the hypothesis of a single migration of a polymorphic
            > > founding population better fits our expanded database. Phylogenetic
            > > analyses of STR variation within haplogroups C and Q traced both
            > > lineages to a probable ancestral homeland in the vicinity of the
            > Altai
            > > Mountains in Southwest Siberia. Divergence dates between the Altai
            > plus
            > > North Asians versus the Native American population system ranged
            > from
            > > 10,100 to 17,200 years for all lineages, precluding a very early
            > entry
            > > into the Americas.
            > >
            > > Yeah, that's a mouthful, isn't it?
            > >
            > > Cogent points here:
            > >
            > > 1. This is NOT about maternal mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA).
            > Haplotypes
            > > (at least as far as I have seen in regards to the peopling of the
            > > Americas) generally are delineated by the mtDNA. The Y chromosome
            > is
            > > the MALE chromosome.
            > >
            > > 2. The X-haplotype is one of the rarest mtDNA haplotypes, and is
            > > found in only a few areas, all spread out and isolated from each
            > other
            > > in the Old World, and mostly isolated from each other - but not
            > always -
            > > in the New World.
            > > 3. Edgar Cayce's time scheme for the sinking of Atlantis was
            > 10,500
            > > BCE, about 12,500 years ago. While that is right in the millennium
            > when
            > > the last 'Ice Age' ended, it is also right when Clovis man died off,
            > > along with the mammoths and a lot of other animal species.
            > > 4. Cayce also told where the refugees from Atlantis went - and
            > those
            > > are precisely the locations that the X-haplotype is found.
            > > 5. One of those areas was the Gobi desert. Cayce said that the
            > > Atlanteans went to the Gobi on more than one occasion while
            > Atlantis was
            > > still viable. Cayce said they went there in airships.
            > > 6. The Altai region is right there in the Gobi desert.
            > Wikipedia in
            > > fact, says that
            > >
            > > * The desert basins of the Gobi are bounded by the Altay
            > Mountains
            > > and the grasslands and steppes of Mongolia on the north, by the
            > Tibetan
            > > Plateau to the southwest, and by the North China Plain to the
            > southeast.
            > > This is amazing.
            > >
            > > The same locations in which are found the mtDNA X-haplotype
            > (female) in
            > > Asia ALSO have the MALE C and Q haplotypes.
            > >
            > > The isolation and rarity of the X-haplotypes
            > >
            > > AND "divergence dates" range of the male C and Q haplotypes -
            > supposedly
            > > when the people 'left' the Altai region and came to the Americas -
            > is
            > > precisely when Cayce said that BOTH areas were populated by those
            > > refugees from Atlantis.
            > >
            > > The current paradigms that there was no Atlantis and that settlers
            > in
            > > America had to come from Eurasia force the main stream scientists to
            > > conclude that Altai's settlement came before America, and that the
            > > Americans with female X-haplotype and male C and Q haplotypes must
            > have
            > > come from Altai.
            > >
            > > The Atlantean paradigm says that they both came from a common
            > source.
            > >
            > > It also says that they got to the Gobi (and Egypt and the Pyrenees
            > and
            > > maybe the Americas) by air ship, and that would explain why the
            > > haplotypes are so spread out and with almost no pockets of those
            > > haplotypes in between.
            > >
            > > Cayce's story of Atlantis and its survivors has, over time, NOT been
            > > refuted by subsequent findings, but has, instead, been rendered more
            > > possible. For more info, see Mound Builders: Edgar Cayce's
            > Forgotten
            > > Record of Ancient America
            > > <http://www.amazon.com/Mound-Builders-Forgotten-Ancient-
            > America/dp/09408\
            > > 29363/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200298019&sr=8-3> .
            > >
            > > Now, the one thing that stands out on that page is that some
            > unspecified
            > > major portion of the "nearly 96% of Native American Y chromosomes"
            > were
            > > represented by those C and Q male haplotypes.
            > >
            > > Let's guess-timate, then, that 2/3 of the 96% are represented by
            > the C
            > > and Q haplotypes.
            > >
            > > What does that mean?
            > >
            > > Does it mean that on the male side, 2/3 of the Native Indians in
            > America
            > > have Altaian (Atlantean) male genetics? Consider that most places
            > in
            > > America are not even X-haplotype (Altaian) on their mother's side.
            > In
            > > the Iriquois, it is 25%, and even where the X-haplotype is found it
            > is
            > > only at about 4% or less. But in most of the Americas,
            > the 'indigenous'
            > > peoples are of non X-haplotype.
            > >
            > > What could that possibly mean? Are the scientists messing up the
            > data?
            > > Not likely on this. If both are true, the Atlantean male genetics
            > have
            > > wiped out any other group's male genes.
            > >
            > > OR, the assumptions being made are very wrong somehow about mtDNA
            > and
            > > this male DNA.
            > >
            > > Does anyone else have a take on this?
            > >
            > > Steve
            > >
            >
          • Susan
            Rick, Steve, I have Windows 98 on the desktop here, clicked the Rich-Text Editor (Beta)
            Message 5 of 6 , Jan 18, 2008
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              Rick, Steve,

              I have Windows 98 on the desktop here, clicked the Rich-Text Editor (Beta)
              you have in your instructions, Rick. Looks like it works on my screen. I shall "Send" and see if it transmits rich-text.  If so, and I am not the only one that did not know how to use this feature, others here may find it useful. Otherwise, maybe it will work on the new laptop my kids gave me.

              I worked late last night, fought with my $68/hour plumber this morning who didn't even touch a wrench or plumbing fixture.  So haven't yet had a chance to listen to your  interview last with John Anthony West on the Oopa Loopa archives.  The two hour one with Michael Cremo after Christmas was dynamite. People tell me they don't  have time to listen, but I have a desktop computer in the kitchen and the archived programs add class to the chores. One can always find time for things of significance.

              Please send my regards to your new bride, and wish your stepson well on his departure to Iraq, Rick. Thanks for the Rich-Text, and Steve for using it in the brilliant letter you wrote here.

              I hope what you mentioned includes the funny sentence interruptions that I see in nearly everyone's posts at every Yahoo site.

              If rich text works on this older Dell,  it will put smile on a face getting scarfed-up  heading out to shovel out another half a foot this AM along Sturgeon Eddy Rod,  atop the Wiscconsin River....where it meets Lake Wausau.

              Susan :D

              --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan" <beldingenglish@...> wrote:

               
              Suz,

              When you click "new topic" or "reply",  you will see at the top of the box this  phrase

              "New! Compose your message with Rich-Text Editor (Beta)."

              That is where you will find all the controls you wanted. No special computer, but you do need a fairly up to date operating system (it won't run in Windows 98, e,g.)

              Oz
            • Rick Osmon
              That just goes to show that no matter how sophisticated your technology, nor the importance of a message, conveying any message to an audience and how well
              Message 6 of 6 , Jan 18, 2008
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                That just goes to show that no matter how sophisticated your technology, nor the importance of a message, conveying any  message  to an audience and how well one does it, all comes down to clarity of thought and paying attention to details. I meant to type "Windows 95", not "Windows 98" , but once again I suffered fat finger syndrome and spell check doesn't catch things like that.#-o

                Suz, I'm glad you figured it out. Now we will expect great and creative posts that entertain, interconnect, and elucidate us, as your post always do,  while also serving as visual art.
                :o)

                Oz


                --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan" <beldingenglish@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > Rick, Steve,
                >
                > I have Windows 98 on the desktop here, clicked the Rich-Text Editor
                > (Beta)
                > <http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ancient_waterways_society/post?act=r\
                > eply&messageNum=449&referer=/group/ancient_waterways_society/message/449\
                > &use_rte=1>
                > you have in your instructions, Rick. Looks like it works on my screen. I
                > shall "Send" and see if it transmits rich-text. If so, and I am not the
                > only one that did not know how to use this feature, others here may find
                > it useful. Otherwise, maybe it will work on the new laptop my kids gave
                > me.
                >
                > I worked late last night, fought with my $68/hour plumber this morning
                > who didn't even touch a wrench or plumbing fixture. So haven't yet had
                > a chance to listen to your interview last with John Anthony West on the
                > Oopa Loopa archives. The two hour one with Michael Cremo after
                > Christmas was dynamite. People tell me they don't have time to listen,
                > but I have a desktop computer in the kitchen and the archived programs
                > add class to the chores. One can always find time for things of
                > significance.
                >
                > Please send my regards to your new bride, and wish your stepson well on
                > his departure to Iraq, Rick. Thanks for the Rich-Text
                > <http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ancient_waterways_society/post?act=r\
                > eply&messageNum=449&referer=/group/ancient_waterways_society/message/449\
                > &use_rte=1> , and Steve for using it in the brilliant letter you wrote
                > here.
                >
                > I hope what you mentioned includes the funny sentence interruptions that
                > I see in nearly everyone's posts at every Yahoo site.
                >
                > If rich text works on this older Dell, it will put smile on a face
                > getting scarfed-up heading out to shovel out another half a foot this
                > AM along Sturgeon Eddy Rod, atop the Wiscconsin River....where it meets
                > Lake Wausau.
                >
                > Susan [:D]
                >
                > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
                > beldingenglish@ wrote:
                >
                > Suz,
                >
                > When you click "new topic" or "reply", you will see at the top of the
                > box this phrase
                >
                > "New! Compose your message with Rich-Text Editor (Beta)
                > <http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ancient_waterways_society/post?act=r\
                > eply&messageNum=449&referer=/group/ancient_waterways_society/message/449\
                > &use_rte=1> ."
                >
                > That is where you will find all the controls you wanted. No special
                > computer, but you do need a fairly up to date operating system (it won't
                > run in Windows 98, e,g.)
                >
                > Oz
                >
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