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Re: Underwater "road" or "structure"?

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  • bigalemc2
    Herb - Great photos! Well, you certainly have turned up something unusual. It took me a while to look at these, finally, but I did and am glad to see them. I
    Message 1 of 13 , Jan 13, 2008
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      Herb -

      Great photos!

      Well, you certainly have turned up something unusual.

      It took me a while to look at these, finally, but I did and am glad to see them.

      I can hardly add anything to your speculations on them.  You've covered most of the possibilities.

      My POV on the photos is that you have good reason to think they are man-made.  They look more man-made than the Bimini road, to me.  The first photo was narrow enough that I thought it was a wash between man-made and natural, but in the latter ones the weight of the argument - IMHO - pushed over to the man-made end of the spectrum.

      Personally, what I like to do is to argue that they are what I DON'T want them to be, and see if that holds water - without getting bozo with speculation and diversion from Occam's Razor, which says that the simpler explanation that covers all the bases is probably the correct one.  More than a few little questions come to mind, so I will lay out what those are, for what it is worth.

      Numbering the photos from top to bottom #1 through #5:

      #1 questions and notes:
      1. What kind of stone is it?
      2. Is there any evidence that the stone(s) was not laid there naturally?
      3. Is the kind of stone present known to crack naturally in straight lines?
      4. Does this kind of stone also crack naturally in such a near-rectilinear fashion?  Some may, most would not seem to.
      5. This photo does not show right angles on all the cracks.
      6. How uniformly wide are the cracks? 
      7. If they were naturally formed, is there evidence that all the cracks might have been formed naturally at the same time, under the same forces or influences?
      8. How extensive is the entire stone area?
      9. Does the area extend under the aquatic vegetation upstream or down?
      10. Does the area extend under the river bank?
      11. Are the edges of the entire stone area natural-looking?
      12. How level is the top surface?
      13. How deep are the stones set into the river bottom?
      14. Is there more than one layer?  (This mirrors your idea that they may be the roof of a structure.)
      15. What underlies the stone area?
      16. Does the alignment follow along the bottom of the river bed?  Across it?  At an angle?
      Some of these are trite questions, but these and more need to be asked to determine if the formation is natural.

      Photo #2 and #3:  I do not see any stone in those.

      Photo #4 - all the same questions and comments apply as to photo #1, plus:
      1. This one raised my eyebrows.  A LOT.
      2. This pattern would be difficult to argue as natural
      3. The right angles are quite evident
      4. The alignment of the cross joints is amazing if naturally formed
      5. The two narrower stones have nearly aligned cracks on both sides, which make it hard to argue for natural formation
      6. The crack between the larger stone and the one 'above' it seems not to have parallel sides, which would tend to argue it is naturally formed
      7. The top surface does seem to be essentially flat, if not level
      Photo #5 - all the same questions and comments apply as to photo #1 and #4, plus:
      1. The pattern is definitely rectilinear
      2. This seems to suggest a long, linear pattern to the area, similar to a road or a paved ford
      3. Are the long cracks parallel?  If so, to what degree?
      4. The 'roadway' seems to be crowned.  Is that an illusion or true?
      5. One stone in the top of the photo does not match up crack-to-crack with those around it, in the simplest rectilinear pattern.  The mating one on the right is actually two stones.  Does this occur elsewhere?  (This seems to suggest that natural forces did not crack the two on the right, since the natural force would also have been trying to crack the single one, too.)
      Photos #4 and #5 are pretty amazing.

      Old maps would seem to be the order of the day, to see if any show any road here known to early settlers or to known industries in the area.

      You have to show that these are not known to anyone at any earlier time.  I suggest reading this book: The Island of Seven Cities: Where the Chinese Settled When They Discovered AmericaThe author went through the same kind of proving out - to himself - that your site will pretty much need to do.  He assumed that the site he'd found was known to earlier settlers, then exhausted every one of those possibilities.  What was left was not what he had ever considered possible, but it turned out to be the probable answer.

      I do not profess to have covered all the possible questions, nor to have any great insight into anything about this.  If any of the above helps you in your thinking, Herb, go for it.

      Steve Garcia
    • herbswoods
      Susan, Thanks for the Bimini road websites. Of course I ve heard of that locale before, but have never studied it and I ll do so now. Notice how I fell into
      Message 2 of 13 , Jan 15, 2008
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        Susan,

        Thanks for the Bimini "road" websites. Of course I've heard of that
        locale before, but have never studied it and I'll do so now.

        Notice how I fell into the same first response mentioned there to call
        my discovery a "road." But after thinking about it, while it does
        rather look like a road, I don't that's what it is or that it's not
        natural. For now the webpage is done, but I might go back and change
        it upon more study.

        Yes, I too have seen old structures and pilings around Superior Bay,
        mouth of Amnicon River, and in the U.P. Never have visited Misery Bay,
        but am familiar with the story behind the name. I have also seen old
        bridge footings and pilings in area streams, but the site I discovered
        doesn't look at all like that stuff. Unique and strikingly different
        from anything else.

        Also, your colleague Chris asked remarked: "This photograph
        has a round depression in it that looks remarkably precise."

        Which photo was he referring to? Not sure what "round depression" he's
        talking about but I'm interested.

        Thanks!
        HW

        --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
        <beldingenglish@...> wrote:
        >
        > Herb, All,
        >
        > I am going to throw in a couple of web links here in response to your
        > inquiry about possible links on ancient roads, ruins, etc. that
        > relate to this fun new NW Wisconsin mystery.
        >
        > 1. I will let those interestedeted Google "Bimini Road" to check out
        > photos...not very similar but a couple of photos I recall seeing a
        > few years ago showed a more similar stretch of rectangular stones to
        > Herb's photos. Rick "Oz" in our group interviewd William Donato on
        > Oopa Loopa Cafe radio recently. I was on a Red Cross mission then
        > and have not listened to the program from the archives. But Donato
        > and Frank Joseph from Ancient American are both divers, longtime
        > friends. I mentioned before Bill was at at least two Ancient American
        > conference years ago out West; I saw some of his photos of Bimini
        > then.
        >
        > But possibly more interesting, Herb and those of you who will be
        > following his progress is the following article, listed under the
        > title Ancient Archaeology, "BIMINI ROAD, ANALYSIS" from A SCIENTIFIC
        > SELECTION OF WEB INFORMATION ON ANCIENT UNDERWATER RUINS AND OTHER
        > REMARKABLE FINDS:
        >
        > http://www.altarcheologie.nl/index.html?
        > underwater_ruins/bimini/bimini_analysis.htm
        >
        > Starts very interestingly: "Firstly one should not be confused by the
        > word "road", this is only a convenient looking name given by the
        > first discoverers. One should see the road initially just as what it
        > is: a collection of stones. The question is: are the shape and
        > arrangement of these stones such that they are artificial, made by
        > man. The usual arguments for this are: regularity, straight lines
        > (not circles, nature is pretty good at making circles), some kinds of
        > symmetry (not all: natural crystals can also be symmetric, but they
        > are usually not bigger than a decimeter), and the like."...
        >
        > I will let you read the rest. The article refers to an ocean rock
        > structure but likely the same rules apply. (I feel as though I am in
        > school again).
        >
        > 2. Possibly not relative, but something to consider since the article
        > stems from an area in close approximation to Herb's tributary of Lake
        > Superior re: a wooden crib from the 1870's that washed up on a Duluth
        > shore. It mentions something about a "stone road on top". To me, all
        > diagrams, photos of rocks don't show anything that even resembles the
        > precision of Herb's underwater pattern of large rectangular stones.
        >
        > Article is called "Duluth Chapter Helps With Washed Up Crib":
        >
        > http://www.glsps.org/crib_project/duluth_crib_project.htm
        >
        > What I think it does tell us, though, is that 1800's structures as
        > such were likely partially or fully constructed of logs or wood.
        > Another example along Lake Superior where I often am the only one
        > camping is at Misery Bay was formerly called "Carver's Bay or Carver
        > Bay" after explorer Jonathan Carver who Herb discusses in his web
        > sites. There is also an Amazon.com book called "Misery Bay and Other
        > Stories from Michigan's Upper Peninsula" listed under Mysteries &
        > Horror. I'll vouch for that part when camping alone late some
        > nights...where the Misery River and Misery Bay come together. I
        > generally don't reveal my favorite private camping and kayak spots,
        > but this link and photos will show you how remote and beautiful it
        > is. Just before the road to Misery Bay turns gravel, on the left in
        > front of an old wooden church (turned town hall), along the road is
        > an open spigot of pure, artesian water continuously spewing out for
        > anyone in the world to help themselves to, and I usually take up
        > thirty or fory empty gallon bottles:
        >
        > http://hunts-upguide.com/toivola_misery_bay.html
        >
        > Misery Bay is one of the places I have mentioned before where I sit
        > around a fire late at night, occasionally beneath the spell of Aurora
        > Borealis and let 'Mother Nature' try to teach me to think more like
        > the ancients who might have also taken refuge there overnight. At the
        > entrance to the parking lot is a sign that tells of its origins and
        > of Jonathan Carver being there, shipwrecks, terrific storms, earlier
        > site of Indian battles, etc., hence later named "Misery" Bay. Very
        > old U. of Michigan archaeological maps show even earlier ancient
        > Indian habitation, burial sites. The reason I mention this site is
        > that some springtimes when the snow and ice recede, old historic
        > wooden pilings or skids? peek through the sands in the bay where
        > ships were once pulled up or docked. I have stubbed my feet on the
        > old pilings sometimes, the water so cold things don't decay fast in
        > Lake Superior. Sand has filled the bay over time, but still no
        > evidence whatever of any stone structures there. Perhaps a good idea
        > to put on snorkeling gear (maybe) to get a better look-see in the
        > Misery River, Firesteel and Flintsteel Rivers south toward Ontonagon.
        > Below that is where I spent my teens toward Little Girls Point, MI
        > and over to Saxon Harbor, Ashland, Bayfield, then farther over to
        > Superior (WI)-Duluth (MN).
        >
        > None of my old woodsman, hunting and fishing friends from the area
        > have ever seen rocks aligned like that anywhere, or even that shape
        > anywhere up there and I am sure will also be follow the progress of
        > Herb and you who get into this inquiry...
        >
        > Susan
        >
        > . --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
        > <beldingenglish@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Herb,
        > >
        > > Last night I forwarded your website to a friend, Christopher Dunn
        > > whom I met through the World Explorer's Club in Kempton, Illinois
        > > (David Hatcher Childress who many feel is Thor Heyerdahl's (Kon
        > Tiki)
        > > protege.) He and Dunn are close, longtime friends, as is engineer
        > > Steve Garcia from Ancient Waterways Society, who also expressed
        > > interest in your findings to me via email last evening.
        > >
        > > Dunn is a member of the impressive Board of Directors for the Great
        > > Pyramid of Giza Research Association (http://www.gizapyramid.com/)
        > and
        > > has published a best-sellling book on the Great Pyramid, The Giza
        > > Power Plant-Technologies of Ancient Egypt". Of numerous magazine
        > > articles, one you might be particularly interested in is "Advanced
        > > Machining in Ancient Egypt".
        > >
        > > Christopher also drove over from his home in Danville, Illinois to
        > > the Ohio AAAPF/Thor/Midwest Epigraphic Society Conference last
        > > October as one of our speakers. If you or other Ancient Waterways
        > > Society members want to read more about Dunn, his web site is:
        > >
        > > http://www.gizapyramid.com/BIO-Dunn.htm
        > >
        > > I and many with whom I am affiliated have found Dunn to carry the
        > > utmost integrity, both personally and professionally.
        > >
        > > Anyway, I knew he would be interested in Herb's photographs and web
        > > site, so sent a note to him last night. This morning received the
        > > following reply w/inclusion of one of the green weedy photos. See
        > if
        > > any of you can spot what he is referring to; I'd not noticed it,
        > but
        > > can see the circle below the weeds. Herb, can you find that exact
        > > site again in your excursion back there next spring???
        > >
        > > Susan
        > >
        > > -----Original Message-----
        > > From: Chris Dunn <cdunn1546@>
        > > To: SuzEnglish@
        > > Sent: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 12:13 pm
        > > Subject: RE: Check out ancient_waterways_society : Message:
        > > Underwater "road" or "structur
        > >
        > > Hi Susan,
        > >
        > > Thanks for the links, they are very interesting. This photograph
        > has
        > > a round depression in it that looks remarkably precise. Can you
        > find
        > > out more?
        > >
        > > Thanks,
        > >
        > > Chris
        > >
        > > ------------------------------------------------------------
        > > From: SuzEnglish@ [mailto:SuzEnglish@]
        > > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 7:42 AM
        > > To: CDunn1546@
        > > Subject: Check out ancient_waterways_society : Message:
        > > Underwater "road" or "structur
        > >
        > > Chris,
        > >
        > > Below is a web site w/underwater photos from one of our Ancient
        > > Waterways Society members (Herb Wagner) sent yesterday. He has
        > > discovered what has the appearance of a road in an extremely remote
        > > are of NW Wisconsin, near a Lake Superior to Mississippi River
        > > tributary. He is leaving it up to further investigation whether or
        > > not the site is natural or man-made. Many of us who lived (and
        > trout
        > > fished) in the area for decades has ever seen or heard about
        > anything
        > > like that up there before. The only other photos that seem to
        > > resemble it (to me) are the "Bimini Road" in the Bahamas, though on
        > a
        > > much larger scale of stone 'block'.
        > >
        > > He has a number of excellent web sites you might enjoy, esp. if you
        > > and your family plan a trip up into that area (not far from
        > Bayfield
        > > and the Apostle Islands, then westward along Lake Superior into the
        > > Porcupine Mts. and Keweenaw County Copper Country. Herb's
        > > Wisconsin's Ancient Copper Mines web site has many of us including
        > > the NW region of Wisconsin as also a significant part of ancient
        > > copper trade, and might prove likely to have been a significant
        > > entrance to a direct trade route to the Mississippi.
        > >
        > > If you see anything that resembles the appearance of something man-
        > > made, please let the group or Herb Wagner know. Or anyone who
        > knows
        > > how one determines dating and whether or not stone structures as
        > such
        > > are natural or man-made.
        > >
        > > Steve Garcia is also one of the 20 members of our group, as is
        > > engineer Vince Barrows who spoke on Cahokia at the Ohio conference
        > > and has been doing a lot of preservation of Monks Mound and
        > advocacy
        > > there.
        > >
        > > I know you all are busy with careers and your own research, books,
        > > family etc.
        > >
        > > Herb's photos and web sites might intrigue you.
        > >
        > > Thanks again,
        > > Susan
        > >
        > > ________________
        > > Click here: ancient_waterways_society : Message: Underwater "road"
        > > or "structure"?
        > >
        > > "Group,
        > > Months ago I posted about an underwater discovery I made last
        > summer
        > > in Northern Wisconsin of a possible underwater road. I promised
        > > photos and finally found time to whip up a webpage containing a few
        > > images of this unusual feature. Please visit the following link and
        > > tell me what you think. It's still in somewhat rough form, but I
        > > would like your opinion on the following:
        > >
        > > Right now I'm calling it a "road" or "causeway." But upon
        > > consideration I really don't know what it is, so maybe I should
        > > change it to "possible structure of some kind" that looks like an
        > > ancient road, although it may well have a natural explanation as I
        > > also state.
        > >
        > > Thanks!
        > > [Herb]
        > >
        > > http://www.atthecreation.com/ROAD/UNDERWATER.RD.html
        > >
        > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "herbswoods"
        > > <herbswoods@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Susan and others:
        > >
        > > I've changed the wording in the webpage from "road" to "structure"
        > > because really: What is it?
        > >
        > > I don't know the answer; perhaps other members can give their
        > > opinions and ideas.
        > >
        > > Upon looking at the photos some more, it occurs to me that if it is
        > > artificial in origin, it could be the TOP of a much larger and
        > mostly
        > > buried structure. That is almost too extreme a position to take,
        > but
        > > the possibility cannot be ignored.
        > >
        > > What I need to find are photos of actual human-built ruins or
        > ancient
        > > roads that show similar "construction" to this site (in quotes
        > > because, again, it might well be natural in origin and probably is.)
        > >
        > > The overall size of the (exposed) portion of the site was relatively
        > > small, but I did not measure it. Trying to recall, I'd guess it was
        > > maybe 15-20 feet wide and maybe 30-50 feet long. Maybe larger. The
        > > stones were of various sizes, some large enough to be impossible for
        > > one man to move them, or even two men to move them, but that's just
        > > rough guesswork.
        > >
        > > I did not see anything else nearby: no mounds, pyramids, etc., but
        > > like I wrote, the surrounding area was dense vegetation and I did
        > not
        > > explore it at all. My entire focus was on the "structure" itself.
        > Nor
        > > did I explore the surrounding upland areas.
        > >
        > > If it's an artificial structure, somebody put a LOT of effort into
        > > building it and without any sign of modern tools or materials. One
        > > person could NOT have built it. If artificial, the purpose or intent
        > > of the site remains a puzzle and a mystery.
        > >
        > > H.W.
        > >
        > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
        > > <beldingenglish@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Herb,
        > >
        > > A very well-written web site, "Discovery of an Underwater
        > Prehistoric
        > > Road in Northwest Wisconsin?", and the photographs absolutely
        > knocked
        > > my socks off.
        > >
        > > I moved to Hurley, WI/Ironwood, MI during the late 50's, later
        > lived
        > > a short time in Superior, WI. I fished brushy trout streams and
        > > larger Lake Superior tributaries but never saw anything remotely
        > > resembling what is shown in your photographs.
        > >
        > > Except when helping with two Ancient American Magazine conferences
        > > out West late 80's, early 90's when viewing photographs that divers
        > > Dr. William Donato (Washington State)and Frank Joseph had depicting
        > > the underwater "Bimini Road" near the Bahamas. One or two of your
        > > photos reminded me of the precisely fitted rectangular blocks,
        > though
        > > yours seem smaller in size.
        > >
        > > Herb, about how wide and long were some of the paved surfaces you
        > > uncovered and did any branch off or come to a dead end? Did you
        > see
        > > anything that resembled burial sites, stone or earthen mounds, rock
        > > piles, stone walls, etc.? Are any of the structures out on higher
        > > ground where logging occurred?
        > >
        > > The reason I ask was, that a few years ago a friend was surveying
        > in
        > > a very remote location northeast of where you are talking about and
        > > discovered (has been ever since trying to what remains of a number
        > of
        > > old, possibly ancient stone walls on wilderness land off the beaten
        > > path of old logging roads. Every wall also had large, surrounding
        > > stone piles or mounds nearby.
        > >
        > > One stone wall, half-covered with earth, grass, overgrown brush
        > leads
        > > eerily down and well into a fairly deep lake. I never looked to see
        > > if there was anything like a road under the thick overgrowth and
        > > swampy shoreline. The sites I have investigated with him since lie
        > > within a mile of present day Lake Superior shores. I practically
        > had
        > > to take a blood oath of secrecy until protection can be given to
        > the
        > > sites, undoubtedly could never find the areas again. I am urging
        > that
        > > photographs and carbon-dating be done soon so data and reports can
        > be
        > > put together and the knowledge put to public use.
        > >
        > > It seems wise at this time you are keeping the whereabouts of the
        > > location quiet and I applaud your reverent intent to maintain the
        > > integrity of landscape and waterways, as you portray and describe
        > so
        > > beautifully on your web sites. Little true wilderness remains any
        > > more. Many of us know of even well-intended diffusionist
        > researchers
        > > who have wrought irreversible damage on the landscape searching for
        > > and/or removing artifacts for public and private museums and
        > displays.
        > >
        > > Web sites such as this help many of us continue considering
        > > possibilites by sharing and putting together clues to this larger
        > > landscape of human habitation, possibly extending our history of
        > > these areas far back not only into early historic but very ancient
        > > past. I hope others enjoy Herb's web sites as much as I and perhaps
        > > will speculate about the photos. Please keep us posted on this
        > > exploration.
        > > _________________
        > >
        > > I miss hearing recent updates from Georgian member Jamie Clark re:
        > > the hundreds of seemingly old/ancient stone bird heads discovered a
        > > year or two in caves and sinkholes on private property. He weemed
        > to
        > > be doing an excellent job fielding questions for the landowner and
        > > maintaining anonymity of the site location.
        > >
        > > Thanks for keeping us informed, Herb.
        > >
        > > Susan English
        > >
        > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "herbswoods"
        > > <herbswoods@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Group:
        > >
        > > Months ago I posted about an underwater discovery I made last summer
        > > in Northern Wisconsin of a possible underwater road. I promised
        > > photos and finally found time to whip up a webpage containing a few
        > > images of this unusual feature. Please visit the following link and
        > > tell me what you think. It's still in somewhat rough form, but I
        > > would like your opinion on the following:
        > >
        > > Right now I'm calling it a "road" or "causeway." But upon
        > > consideration I really don't know what it is, so maybe I should
        > > change it to "possible structure of some kind" that looks like an
        > > ancient road, although it may well have a natural explanation as I
        > > also state.
        > >
        > > Thanks!
        > >
        > > http://www.atthecreation.com/ROAD/UNDERWATER.RD.html
        > >
        >
      • Susan
        Herb, Steve, and All, When I first opened the email reply from Christopher it had on the page one of your little photos. Now it isn t and it boggles my mind.
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 15, 2008
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          Herb, Steve, and All,

          When I first opened the email reply from Christopher it had on the
          page one of your little photos. Now it isn't and it boggles my mind.
          But I see what he was referreing to. Maybe Steve Garcia does, too.
          He is an engineer and long into ancient studies. Steve is a longtime
          personal friend of Christopher Dunn, Hatcher Childress and some of
          their associates while I am more an acquaintence through conferences.

          Do you fellows and members at this message board see the circle
          within the green reedy photo on Herb's new web page (within the
          paragraph "That day, chilled by the...")?

          Dunn had written..."This photograph has a round depression in it that
          looks remarkably precise. Can you find out more? Thanks, Chris"
          _________________

          Susan





          --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "herbswoods"
          <herbswoods@...> wrote:
          >
          > Susan,
          >
          > Thanks for the Bimini "road" websites. Of course I've heard of that
          > locale before, but have never studied it and I'll do so now.
          >
          > Notice how I fell into the same first response mentioned there to
          call
          > my discovery a "road." But after thinking about it, while it does
          > rather look like a road, I don't that's what it is or that it's not
          > natural. For now the webpage is done, but I might go back and change
          > it upon more study.
          >
          > Yes, I too have seen old structures and pilings around Superior Bay,
          > mouth of Amnicon River, and in the U.P. Never have visited Misery
          Bay,
          > but am familiar with the story behind the name. I have also seen old
          > bridge footings and pilings in area streams, but the site I
          discovered
          > doesn't look at all like that stuff. Unique and strikingly different
          > from anything else.
          >
          > Also, your colleague Chris asked remarked: "This photograph
          > has a round depression in it that looks remarkably precise."
          >
          > Which photo was he referring to? Not sure what "round depression"
          he's
          > talking about but I'm interested.
          >
          > Thanks!
          > HW
          >
          > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
          > <beldingenglish@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Herb, All,
          > >
          > > I am going to throw in a couple of web links here in response to
          your
          > > inquiry about possible links on ancient roads, ruins, etc. that
          > > relate to this fun new NW Wisconsin mystery.
          > >
          > > 1. I will let those interestedeted Google "Bimini Road" to check
          out
          > > photos...not very similar but a couple of photos I recall seeing
          a
          > > few years ago showed a more similar stretch of rectangular stones
          to
          > > Herb's photos. Rick "Oz" in our group interviewd William Donato
          on
          > > Oopa Loopa Cafe radio recently. I was on a Red Cross mission
          then
          > > and have not listened to the program from the archives. But
          Donato
          > > and Frank Joseph from Ancient American are both divers, longtime
          > > friends. I mentioned before Bill was at at least two Ancient
          American
          > > conference years ago out West; I saw some of his photos of Bimini
          > > then.
          > >
          > > But possibly more interesting, Herb and those of you who will be
          > > following his progress is the following article, listed under the
          > > title Ancient Archaeology, "BIMINI ROAD, ANALYSIS" from A
          SCIENTIFIC
          > > SELECTION OF WEB INFORMATION ON ANCIENT UNDERWATER RUINS AND
          OTHER
          > > REMARKABLE FINDS:
          > >
          > > http://www.altarcheologie.nl/index.html?
          > > underwater_ruins/bimini/bimini_analysis.htm
          > >
          > > Starts very interestingly: "Firstly one should not be confused by
          the
          > > word "road", this is only a convenient looking name given by the
          > > first discoverers. One should see the road initially just as what
          it
          > > is: a collection of stones. The question is: are the shape and
          > > arrangement of these stones such that they are artificial, made
          by
          > > man. The usual arguments for this are: regularity, straight lines
          > > (not circles, nature is pretty good at making circles), some
          kinds of
          > > symmetry (not all: natural crystals can also be symmetric, but
          they
          > > are usually not bigger than a decimeter), and the like."...
          > >
          > > I will let you read the rest. The article refers to an ocean rock
          > > structure but likely the same rules apply. (I feel as though I
          am in
          > > school again).
          > >
          > > 2. Possibly not relative, but something to consider since the
          article
          > > stems from an area in close approximation to Herb's tributary of
          Lake
          > > Superior re: a wooden crib from the 1870's that washed up on a
          Duluth
          > > shore. It mentions something about a "stone road on top". To me,
          all
          > > diagrams, photos of rocks don't show anything that even resembles
          the
          > > precision of Herb's underwater pattern of large rectangular
          stones.
          > >
          > > Article is called "Duluth Chapter Helps With Washed Up Crib":
          > >
          > > http://www.glsps.org/crib_project/duluth_crib_project.htm
          > >
          > > What I think it does tell us, though, is that 1800's structures
          as
          > > such were likely partially or fully constructed of logs or wood.
          > > Another example along Lake Superior where I often am the only one
          > > camping is at Misery Bay was formerly called "Carver's Bay or
          Carver
          > > Bay" after explorer Jonathan Carver who Herb discusses in his web
          > > sites. There is also an Amazon.com book called "Misery Bay and
          Other
          > > Stories from Michigan's Upper Peninsula" listed under Mysteries &
          > > Horror. I'll vouch for that part when camping alone late some
          > > nights...where the Misery River and Misery Bay come together. I
          > > generally don't reveal my favorite private camping and kayak
          spots,
          > > but this link and photos will show you how remote and beautiful
          it
          > > is. Just before the road to Misery Bay turns gravel, on the left
          in
          > > front of an old wooden church (turned town hall), along the road
          is
          > > an open spigot of pure, artesian water continuously spewing out
          for
          > > anyone in the world to help themselves to, and I usually take up
          > > thirty or fory empty gallon bottles:
          > >
          > > http://hunts-upguide.com/toivola_misery_bay.html
          > >
          > > Misery Bay is one of the places I have mentioned before where I
          sit
          > > around a fire late at night, occasionally beneath the spell of
          Aurora
          > > Borealis and let 'Mother Nature' try to teach me to think more
          like
          > > the ancients who might have also taken refuge there overnight. At
          the
          > > entrance to the parking lot is a sign that tells of its origins
          and
          > > of Jonathan Carver being there, shipwrecks, terrific storms,
          earlier
          > > site of Indian battles, etc., hence later named "Misery" Bay.
          Very
          > > old U. of Michigan archaeological maps show even earlier ancient
          > > Indian habitation, burial sites. The reason I mention this site
          is
          > > that some springtimes when the snow and ice recede, old historic
          > > wooden pilings or skids? peek through the sands in the bay where
          > > ships were once pulled up or docked. I have stubbed my feet on
          the
          > > old pilings sometimes, the water so cold things don't decay fast
          in
          > > Lake Superior. Sand has filled the bay over time, but still no
          > > evidence whatever of any stone structures there. Perhaps a good
          idea
          > > to put on snorkeling gear (maybe) to get a better look-see in the
          > > Misery River, Firesteel and Flintsteel Rivers south toward
          Ontonagon.
          > > Below that is where I spent my teens toward Little Girls Point,
          MI
          > > and over to Saxon Harbor, Ashland, Bayfield, then farther over to
          > > Superior (WI)-Duluth (MN).
          > >
          > > None of my old woodsman, hunting and fishing friends from the
          area
          > > have ever seen rocks aligned like that anywhere, or even that
          shape
          > > anywhere up there and I am sure will also be follow the progress
          of
          > > Herb and you who get into this inquiry...
          > >
          > > Susan
          > >
          > > . --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
          > > <beldingenglish@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Herb,
          > > >
          > > > Last night I forwarded your website to a friend, Christopher
          Dunn
          > > > whom I met through the World Explorer's Club in Kempton,
          Illinois
          > > > (David Hatcher Childress who many feel is Thor Heyerdahl's (Kon
          > > Tiki)
          > > > protege.) He and Dunn are close, longtime friends, as is
          engineer
          > > > Steve Garcia from Ancient Waterways Society, who also expressed
          > > > interest in your findings to me via email last evening.
          > > >
          > > > Dunn is a member of the impressive Board of Directors for the
          Great
          > > > Pyramid of Giza Research Association
          (http://www.gizapyramid.com/)
          > > and
          > > > has published a best-sellling book on the Great Pyramid, The
          Giza
          > > > Power Plant-Technologies of Ancient Egypt". Of numerous
          magazine
          > > > articles, one you might be particularly interested in
          is "Advanced
          > > > Machining in Ancient Egypt".
          > > >
          > > > Christopher also drove over from his home in Danville, Illinois
          to
          > > > the Ohio AAAPF/Thor/Midwest Epigraphic Society Conference last
          > > > October as one of our speakers. If you or other Ancient
          Waterways
          > > > Society members want to read more about Dunn, his web site is:
          > > >
          > > > http://www.gizapyramid.com/BIO-Dunn.htm
          > > >
          > > > I and many with whom I am affiliated have found Dunn to carry
          the
          > > > utmost integrity, both personally and professionally.
          > > >
          > > > Anyway, I knew he would be interested in Herb's photographs and
          web
          > > > site, so sent a note to him last night. This morning received
          the
          > > > following reply w/inclusion of one of the green weedy photos.
          See
          > > if
          > > > any of you can spot what he is referring to; I'd not noticed
          it,
          > > but
          > > > can see the circle below the weeds. Herb, can you find that
          exact
          > > > site again in your excursion back there next spring???
          > > >
          > > > Susan
          > > >
          > > > -----Original Message-----
          > > > From: Chris Dunn <cdunn1546@>
          > > > To: SuzEnglish@
          > > > Sent: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 12:13 pm
          > > > Subject: RE: Check out ancient_waterways_society : Message:
          > > > Underwater "road" or "structur
          > > >
          > > > Hi Susan,
          > > >
          > > > Thanks for the links, they are very interesting. This
          photograph
          > > has
          > > > a round depression in it that looks remarkably precise. Can you
          > > find
          > > > out more?
          > > >
          > > > Thanks,
          > > >
          > > > Chris
          > > >
          > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
          > > > From: SuzEnglish@ [mailto:SuzEnglish@]
          > > > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 7:42 AM
          > > > To: CDunn1546@
          > > > Subject: Check out ancient_waterways_society : Message:
          > > > Underwater "road" or "structur
          > > >
          > > > Chris,
          > > >
          > > > Below is a web site w/underwater photos from one of our Ancient
          > > > Waterways Society members (Herb Wagner) sent yesterday. He has
          > > > discovered what has the appearance of a road in an extremely
          remote
          > > > are of NW Wisconsin, near a Lake Superior to Mississippi River
          > > > tributary. He is leaving it up to further investigation
          whether or
          > > > not the site is natural or man-made. Many of us who lived (and
          > > trout
          > > > fished) in the area for decades has ever seen or heard about
          > > anything
          > > > like that up there before. The only other photos that seem to
          > > > resemble it (to me) are the "Bimini Road" in the Bahamas,
          though on
          > > a
          > > > much larger scale of stone 'block'.
          > > >
          > > > He has a number of excellent web sites you might enjoy, esp. if
          you
          > > > and your family plan a trip up into that area (not far from
          > > Bayfield
          > > > and the Apostle Islands, then westward along Lake Superior into
          the
          > > > Porcupine Mts. and Keweenaw County Copper Country. Herb's
          > > > Wisconsin's Ancient Copper Mines web site has many of us
          including
          > > > the NW region of Wisconsin as also a significant part of
          ancient
          > > > copper trade, and might prove likely to have been a significant
          > > > entrance to a direct trade route to the Mississippi.
          > > >
          > > > If you see anything that resembles the appearance of something
          man-
          > > > made, please let the group or Herb Wagner know. Or anyone who
          > > knows
          > > > how one determines dating and whether or not stone structures
          as
          > > such
          > > > are natural or man-made.
          > > >
          > > > Steve Garcia is also one of the 20 members of our group, as is
          > > > engineer Vince Barrows who spoke on Cahokia at the Ohio
          conference
          > > > and has been doing a lot of preservation of Monks Mound and
          > > advocacy
          > > > there.
          > > >
          > > > I know you all are busy with careers and your own research,
          books,
          > > > family etc.
          > > >
          > > > Herb's photos and web sites might intrigue you.
          > > >
          > > > Thanks again,
          > > > Susan
          > > >
          > > > ________________
          > > > Click here: ancient_waterways_society : Message:
          Underwater "road"
          > > > or "structure"?
          > > >
          > > > "Group,
          > > > Months ago I posted about an underwater discovery I made last
          > > summer
          > > > in Northern Wisconsin of a possible underwater road. I promised
          > > > photos and finally found time to whip up a webpage containing a
          few
          > > > images of this unusual feature. Please visit the following link
          and
          > > > tell me what you think. It's still in somewhat rough form, but
          I
          > > > would like your opinion on the following:
          > > >
          > > > Right now I'm calling it a "road" or "causeway." But upon
          > > > consideration I really don't know what it is, so maybe I should
          > > > change it to "possible structure of some kind" that looks like
          an
          > > > ancient road, although it may well have a natural explanation
          as I
          > > > also state.
          > > >
          > > > Thanks!
          > > > [Herb]
          > > >
          > > > http://www.atthecreation.com/ROAD/UNDERWATER.RD.html
          > > >
          > > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "herbswoods"
          > > > <herbswoods@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Susan and others:
          > > >
          > > > I've changed the wording in the webpage from "road"
          to "structure"
          > > > because really: What is it?
          > > >
          > > > I don't know the answer; perhaps other members can give their
          > > > opinions and ideas.
          > > >
          > > > Upon looking at the photos some more, it occurs to me that if
          it is
          > > > artificial in origin, it could be the TOP of a much larger and
          > > mostly
          > > > buried structure. That is almost too extreme a position to
          take,
          > > but
          > > > the possibility cannot be ignored.
          > > >
          > > > What I need to find are photos of actual human-built ruins or
          > > ancient
          > > > roads that show similar "construction" to this site (in quotes
          > > > because, again, it might well be natural in origin and probably
          is.)
          > > >
          > > > The overall size of the (exposed) portion of the site was
          relatively
          > > > small, but I did not measure it. Trying to recall, I'd guess it
          was
          > > > maybe 15-20 feet wide and maybe 30-50 feet long. Maybe larger.
          The
          > > > stones were of various sizes, some large enough to be
          impossible for
          > > > one man to move them, or even two men to move them, but that's
          just
          > > > rough guesswork.
          > > >
          > > > I did not see anything else nearby: no mounds, pyramids, etc.,
          but
          > > > like I wrote, the surrounding area was dense vegetation and I
          did
          > > not
          > > > explore it at all. My entire focus was on the "structure"
          itself.
          > > Nor
          > > > did I explore the surrounding upland areas.
          > > >
          > > > If it's an artificial structure, somebody put a LOT of effort
          into
          > > > building it and without any sign of modern tools or materials.
          One
          > > > person could NOT have built it. If artificial, the purpose or
          intent
          > > > of the site remains a puzzle and a mystery.
          > > >
          > > > H.W.
          > > >
          > > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
          > > > <beldingenglish@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Herb,
          > > >
          > > > A very well-written web site, "Discovery of an Underwater
          > > Prehistoric
          > > > Road in Northwest Wisconsin?", and the photographs absolutely
          > > knocked
          > > > my socks off.
          > > >
          > > > I moved to Hurley, WI/Ironwood, MI during the late 50's, later
          > > lived
          > > > a short time in Superior, WI. I fished brushy trout streams and
          > > > larger Lake Superior tributaries but never saw anything
          remotely
          > > > resembling what is shown in your photographs.
          > > >
          > > > Except when helping with two Ancient American Magazine
          conferences
          > > > out West late 80's, early 90's when viewing photographs that
          divers
          > > > Dr. William Donato (Washington State)and Frank Joseph had
          depicting
          > > > the underwater "Bimini Road" near the Bahamas. One or two of
          your
          > > > photos reminded me of the precisely fitted rectangular blocks,
          > > though
          > > > yours seem smaller in size.
          > > >
          > > > Herb, about how wide and long were some of the paved surfaces
          you
          > > > uncovered and did any branch off or come to a dead end? Did
          you
          > > see
          > > > anything that resembled burial sites, stone or earthen mounds,
          rock
          > > > piles, stone walls, etc.? Are any of the structures out on
          higher
          > > > ground where logging occurred?
          > > >
          > > > The reason I ask was, that a few years ago a friend was
          surveying
          > > in
          > > > a very remote location northeast of where you are talking about
          and
          > > > discovered (has been ever since trying to what remains of a
          number
          > > of
          > > > old, possibly ancient stone walls on wilderness land off the
          beaten
          > > > path of old logging roads. Every wall also had large,
          surrounding
          > > > stone piles or mounds nearby.
          > > >
          > > > One stone wall, half-covered with earth, grass, overgrown brush
          > > leads
          > > > eerily down and well into a fairly deep lake. I never looked to
          see
          > > > if there was anything like a road under the thick overgrowth
          and
          > > > swampy shoreline. The sites I have investigated with him since
          lie
          > > > within a mile of present day Lake Superior shores. I
          practically
          > > had
          > > > to take a blood oath of secrecy until protection can be given
          to
          > > the
          > > > sites, undoubtedly could never find the areas again. I am
          urging
          > > that
          > > > photographs and carbon-dating be done soon so data and reports
          can
          > > be
          > > > put together and the knowledge put to public use.
          > > >
          > > > It seems wise at this time you are keeping the whereabouts of
          the
          > > > location quiet and I applaud your reverent intent to maintain
          the
          > > > integrity of landscape and waterways, as you portray and
          describe
          > > so
          > > > beautifully on your web sites. Little true wilderness remains
          any
          > > > more. Many of us know of even well-intended diffusionist
          > > researchers
          > > > who have wrought irreversible damage on the landscape searching
          for
          > > > and/or removing artifacts for public and private museums and
          > > displays.
          > > >
          > > > Web sites such as this help many of us continue considering
          > > > possibilites by sharing and putting together clues to this
          larger
          > > > landscape of human habitation, possibly extending our history
          of
          > > > these areas far back not only into early historic but very
          ancient
          > > > past. I hope others enjoy Herb's web sites as much as I and
          perhaps
          > > > will speculate about the photos. Please keep us posted on this
          > > > exploration.
          > > > _________________
          > > >
          > > > I miss hearing recent updates from Georgian member Jamie Clark
          re:
          > > > the hundreds of seemingly old/ancient stone bird heads
          discovered a
          > > > year or two in caves and sinkholes on private property. He
          weemed
          > > to
          > > > be doing an excellent job fielding questions for the landowner
          and
          > > > maintaining anonymity of the site location.
          > > >
          > > > Thanks for keeping us informed, Herb.
          > > >
          > > > Susan English
          > > >
          > > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "herbswoods"
          > > > <herbswoods@> wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Group:
          > > >
          > > > Months ago I posted about an underwater discovery I made last
          summer
          > > > in Northern Wisconsin of a possible underwater road. I promised
          > > > photos and finally found time to whip up a webpage containing a
          few
          > > > images of this unusual feature. Please visit the following link
          and
          > > > tell me what you think. It's still in somewhat rough form, but
          I
          > > > would like your opinion on the following:
          > > >
          > > > Right now I'm calling it a "road" or "causeway." But upon
          > > > consideration I really don't know what it is, so maybe I should
          > > > change it to "possible structure of some kind" that looks like
          an
          > > > ancient road, although it may well have a natural explanation
          as I
          > > > also state.
          > > >
          > > > Thanks!
          > > >
          > > > http://www.atthecreation.com/ROAD/UNDERWATER.RD.html
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • herbswoods
          Steve: Thanks for the thoughtful response. I agree with everything you said and all those things need to be done. Photos #4 & 5 are pretty amazing, esp. #5
          Message 4 of 13 , Jan 15, 2008
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            Steve:

            Thanks for the thoughtful response. I agree with everything you said
            and all those things need to be done. Photos #4 & 5 are pretty
            amazing, esp. #5 which shows very precise alignment.

            You asked if the stucture has a crown to it From the photo it does
            look like it, but in memory it seems that the structure was level. I
            could be wrong, however, as I was not there very long. I didn't even
            try to dislodge or move a block or otherwise test anything. It just
            didn't occur to me at the time to test anything. All I wanted was to
            obtain photographs and happily I was able to do.

            It's probably of natural origin, but it's fun to speculate as the
            region is a legend-haunted one.

            HW


            --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "bigalemc2"
            <puppet@...> wrote:
            >
            > Herb -
            >
            > Great photos!
            >
            > Well, you certainly have turned up something unusual.
            >
            > It took me a while to look at these, finally, but I did and am glad to
            > see them.
            >
            > I can hardly add anything to your speculations on them. You've covered
            > most of the possibilities.
            >
            > My POV on the photos is that you have good reason to think they are
            > man-made. They look more man-made than the Bimini road, to me. The
            > first photo was narrow enough that I thought it was a wash between
            > man-made and natural, but in the latter ones the weight of the argument
            > - IMHO - pushed over to the man-made end of the spectrum.
            >
            > Personally, what I like to do is to argue that they are what I DON'T
            > want them to be, and see if that holds water - without getting bozo with
            > speculation and diversion from Occam's Razor, which says that the
            > simpler explanation that covers all the bases is probably the correct
            > one. More than a few little questions come to mind, so I will lay out
            > what those are, for what it is worth.
            >
            > Numbering the photos from top to bottom #1 through #5:
            >
            > #1 questions and notes:
            >
            > 1. What kind of stone is it?
            > 2. Is there any evidence that the stone(s) was not laid there
            > naturally?
            > 3. Is the kind of stone present known to crack naturally in straight
            > lines?
            > 4. Does this kind of stone also crack naturally in such a
            > near-rectilinear fashion? Some may, most would not seem to.
            > 5. This photo does not show right angles on all the cracks.
            > 6. How uniformly wide are the cracks?
            >
            > 7. If they were naturally formed, is there evidence that all the
            > cracks might have been formed naturally at the same time, under the same
            > forces or influences?
            >
            > 8. How extensive is the entire stone area?
            > 9. Does the area extend under the aquatic vegetation upstream or
            > down?
            > 10. Does the area extend under the river bank?
            >
            > 11. Are the edges of the entire stone area natural-looking?
            > 12. How level is the top surface?
            > 13. How deep are the stones set into the river bottom?
            > 14. Is there more than one layer? (This mirrors your idea that they
            > may be the roof of a structure.)
            >
            > 15. What underlies the stone area?
            >
            > 16. Does the alignment follow along the bottom of the river bed?
            > Across it? At an angle?
            > Some of these are trite questions, but these and more need to be asked
            > to determine if the formation is natural.
            >
            > Photo #2 and #3: I do not see any stone in those.
            >
            > Photo #4 - all the same questions and comments apply as to photo #1,
            > plus:
            >
            > 1. This one raised my eyebrows. A LOT.
            > 2. This pattern would be difficult to argue as natural
            > 3. The right angles are quite evident
            > 4. The alignment of the cross joints is amazing if naturally formed
            > 5. The two narrower stones have nearly aligned cracks on both sides,
            > which make it hard to argue for natural formation
            > 6. The crack between the larger stone and the one 'above' it seems
            > not to have parallel sides, which would tend to argue it is naturally
            > formed
            > 7. The top surface does seem to be essentially flat, if not level
            > Photo #5 - all the same questions and comments apply as to photo #1 and
            > #4, plus:
            >
            > 1. The pattern is definitely rectilinear
            > 2. This seems to suggest a long, linear pattern to the area, similar
            > to a road or a paved ford
            > 3. Are the long cracks parallel? If so, to what degree?
            > 4. The 'roadway' seems to be crowned. Is that an illusion or true?
            > 5. One stone in the top of the photo does not match up
            crack-to-crack
            > with those around it, in the simplest rectilinear pattern. The mating
            > one on the right is actually two stones. Does this occur elsewhere?
            > (This seems to suggest that natural forces did not crack the two on the
            > right, since the natural force would also have been trying to crack the
            > single one, too.)
            >
            > Photos #4 and #5 are pretty amazing.
            >
            > Old maps would seem to be the order of the day, to see if any show any
            > road here known to early settlers or to known industries in the area.
            >
            > You have to show that these are not known to anyone at any earlier time.
            > I suggest reading this book: The Island of Seven Cities: Where the
            > Chinese Settled When They Discovered America
            >
            <http://www.amazon.com/Island-Seven-Cities-Chinese-Discovered/dp/0312362\
            > 056/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200295531&sr=8-1> . The
            > author went through the same kind of proving out - to himself - that
            > your site will pretty much need to do. He assumed that the site he'd
            > found was known to earlier settlers, then exhausted every one of those
            > possibilities. What was left was not what he had ever considered
            > possible, but it turned out to be the probable answer.
            >
            > I do not profess to have covered all the possible questions, nor to have
            > any great insight into anything about this. If any of the above helps
            > you in your thinking, Herb, go for it.
            >
            > Steve Garcia
            >
          • Susan
            Steve, Excellent letter you wrote to Herb...and you are right that Herb s photos look more man-made that the Bimini Road. Herb, I d probably not even spend
            Message 5 of 13 , Jan 15, 2008
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              Steve,

              Excellent letter you wrote to Herb...and you are right that Herb's
              photos look more man-made that the Bimini Road. Herb, I'd probably
              not even spend much time looking at Bimini. That was the only
              underwater I'd seen I felt was similar.

              The little archeological web site I sent, and even moreso, Steve's
              astute ideas and insights in his post below have provided a finer
              knowledge base of things to look for than hours of web sites, old
              literature I glanced at. Likely divers David Hatcher-Childress, Frank
              Joseph, and Wayne have sites more similar to those in your photo.I
              just sent them your links, too. All of these fellows are friends yet
              also complimentary magazine competitors (Ancient American and
              Adventures Unlimited), and I hope will watch the site and do a bit of
              research along with those here who are intriqued, and especially be
              following Herb's progress, come Spring.

              Susan

              --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "bigalemc2"
              <puppet@...> wrote:
              >
              > Herb -
              >
              > Great photos!
              >
              > Well, you certainly have turned up something unusual.
              >
              > It took me a while to look at these, finally, but I did and am glad
              to
              > see them.
              >
              > I can hardly add anything to your speculations on them. You've
              covered
              > most of the possibilities.
              >
              > My POV on the photos is that you have good reason to think they are
              > man-made. They look more man-made than the Bimini road, to me. The
              > first photo was narrow enough that I thought it was a wash between
              > man-made and natural, but in the latter ones the weight of the
              argument
              > - IMHO - pushed over to the man-made end of the spectrum.
              >
              > Personally, what I like to do is to argue that they are what I DON'T
              > want them to be, and see if that holds water - without getting bozo
              with
              > speculation and diversion from Occam's Razor, which says that the
              > simpler explanation that covers all the bases is probably the
              correct
              > one. More than a few little questions come to mind, so I will lay
              out
              > what those are, for what it is worth.
              >
              > Numbering the photos from top to bottom #1 through #5:
              >
              > #1 questions and notes:
              >
              > 1. What kind of stone is it?
              > 2. Is there any evidence that the stone(s) was not laid there
              > naturally?
              > 3. Is the kind of stone present known to crack naturally in
              straight
              > lines?
              > 4. Does this kind of stone also crack naturally in such a
              > near-rectilinear fashion? Some may, most would not seem to.
              > 5. This photo does not show right angles on all the cracks.
              > 6. How uniformly wide are the cracks?
              >
              > 7. If they were naturally formed, is there evidence that all the
              > cracks might have been formed naturally at the same time, under the
              same
              > forces or influences?
              >
              > 8. How extensive is the entire stone area?
              > 9. Does the area extend under the aquatic vegetation upstream or
              > down?
              > 10. Does the area extend under the river bank?
              >
              > 11. Are the edges of the entire stone area natural-looking?
              > 12. How level is the top surface?
              > 13. How deep are the stones set into the river bottom?
              > 14. Is there more than one layer? (This mirrors your idea that
              they
              > may be the roof of a structure.)
              >
              > 15. What underlies the stone area?
              >
              > 16. Does the alignment follow along the bottom of the river bed?
              > Across it? At an angle?
              > Some of these are trite questions, but these and more need to be
              asked
              > to determine if the formation is natural.
              >
              > Photo #2 and #3: I do not see any stone in those.
              >
              > Photo #4 - all the same questions and comments apply as to photo #1,
              > plus:
              >
              > 1. This one raised my eyebrows. A LOT.
              > 2. This pattern would be difficult to argue as natural
              > 3. The right angles are quite evident
              > 4. The alignment of the cross joints is amazing if naturally
              formed
              > 5. The two narrower stones have nearly aligned cracks on both
              sides,
              > which make it hard to argue for natural formation
              > 6. The crack between the larger stone and the one 'above' it
              seems
              > not to have parallel sides, which would tend to argue it is
              naturally
              > formed
              > 7. The top surface does seem to be essentially flat, if not
              level
              > Photo #5 - all the same questions and comments apply as to photo #1
              and
              > #4, plus:
              >
              > 1. The pattern is definitely rectilinear
              > 2. This seems to suggest a long, linear pattern to the area,
              similar
              > to a road or a paved ford
              > 3. Are the long cracks parallel? If so, to what degree?
              > 4. The 'roadway' seems to be crowned. Is that an illusion or
              true?
              > 5. One stone in the top of the photo does not match up crack-to-
              crack
              > with those around it, in the simplest rectilinear pattern. The
              mating
              > one on the right is actually two stones. Does this occur
              elsewhere?
              > (This seems to suggest that natural forces did not crack the two on
              the
              > right, since the natural force would also have been trying to crack
              the
              > single one, too.)
              >
              > Photos #4 and #5 are pretty amazing.
              >
              > Old maps would seem to be the order of the day, to see if any show
              any
              > road here known to early settlers or to known industries in the
              area.
              >
              > You have to show that these are not known to anyone at any earlier
              time.
              > I suggest reading this book: The Island of Seven Cities: Where the
              > Chinese Settled When They Discovered America
              > <http://www.amazon.com/Island-Seven-Cities-Chinese-
              Discovered/dp/0312362\
              > 056/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200295531&sr=8-1> . The
              > author went through the same kind of proving out - to himself - that
              > your site will pretty much need to do. He assumed that the site
              he'd
              > found was known to earlier settlers, then exhausted every one of
              those
              > possibilities. What was left was not what he had ever considered
              > possible, but it turned out to be the probable answer.
              >
              > I do not profess to have covered all the possible questions, nor to
              have
              > any great insight into anything about this. If any of the above
              helps
              > you in your thinking, Herb, go for it.
              >
              > Steve Garcia
              >
            • Stephen Garcia
              Susan - I noted the comment by Chris and that particular photo, too, but - maybe it is my old fogy eyes - all I see is a long leaf curled up. I saw the round
              Message 6 of 13 , Jan 15, 2008
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                Susan -

                I noted the comment by Chris and that particular photo, too, but - maybe it is my old fogy eyes - all I see is a long leaf curled up.  I saw the round thing and wanted to see something there, but that is all I see.  Is it actually something IN the stone?  Or is it an optical illusion?

                I mean, it seems essentially the same color as the undersides of the other leaves in the photo.

                At the same time, I DID wonder why Herb took the picture.  If not for that, then what for?  My only guess was to show the tangle he had to swim through.

                But if it is a really something in the stone, that is, of course, a different story.

                ***
                Okay:  I saved the  image to my hard drive, then opened it in a graphics program and zoomed in on that 'circle'.  It appears to me to be a loop in a continuation - the end - of the long, slender leaf that stretches diagonally across the image in a slightly sinuous pattern from the lower left.  I can even follow the leaf between the two - the sinuous part and the loop at the end.

                There even seems to be another leaf below it.

                Here is the enlargement of that area:




                Somebody tell me I am wrong...

                Herb?  Did you actually see something there?  Was this something on the photo when you saw it later?

                Steve Garcia



                Susan wrote:

                Herb, Steve, and All,

                When I first opened the email reply from Christopher it had on the
                page one of your little photos. Now it isn't and it boggles my mind.
                But I see what he was referreing to. Maybe Steve Garcia does, too.
                He is an engineer and long into ancient studies. Steve is a longtime
                personal friend of Christopher Dunn, Hatcher Childress and some of
                their associates while I am more an acquaintence through conferences.

                Do you fellows and members at this message board see the circle
                within the green reedy photo on Herb's new web page (within the
                paragraph "That day, chilled by the...")?

                Dunn had written..."This photograph has a round depression in it that
                looks remarkably precise. Can you find out more? Thanks, Chris"
                __





              • bigalemc2
                Herb - Yeah, you got an enigma on your hands, Dude. Good find! Yes, it might be natural, but I am leaning to it being something man made from a relatively
                Message 7 of 13 , Jan 15, 2008
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                  Herb -

                  Yeah, you got an enigma on your hands, Dude. Good find!

                  Yes, it might be natural, but I am leaning to it being something man
                  made from a relatively recent time period. To me, that is the Occam's
                  razor on this. It makes what the images show make sense in the simplest
                  way. Oh, it would be lovely if it is something from the copper age,
                  but. . .

                  From the images, it would certainly seem to be man made, rather than
                  naturally occurring. Those cracks being at 90 degrees (mostly) is one
                  point in favor of man made. Nature tends to not do things in 90-degree
                  patterns - though one can't rule it out.

                  That non-continuous crack in that one spot seem to rule out nature; if
                  there were stresses in the stone that caused it to crack along some
                  crystalline fault (like a diamond would do), I would expect the crack to
                  extend across the entirety, IMHO. I can speculate on ways that the
                  break wouldn't be fully across the area, but they have problems in
                  themselves, so I threw them out of the argument.

                  I think it best to find old records, preferably maps. If man made, this
                  will show up there. No one builds without leaving some record. Roads
                  of whatever kind are labor intensive, so no one would go to that trouble
                  and then not put it on a map.

                  I'd recommend also to see how long it extends, as soon as possible. If
                  it is a road, there will be much more of it. If it is a stone bottom
                  put in for a post-Columbian ford, then there should be some remnants of
                  a real road on both sides of the river. It may not appear obvious right
                  near the bank, due to erosion, occasional flooding, etc., so looking
                  many feet away from the banks might give the best results.

                  All this is speculation and - like your thoughts on the web page - can
                  get you going in all kinds of directions. A few more facts can cut that
                  all way down. The best way to narrow down the possibilities is to go
                  get more facts. Take more photos, make some measurements, search under
                  and around the vegetation, blah, blah, blah.

                  Time to do some detective work...

                  Steve
                  --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "herbswoods"
                  <herbswoods@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Steve:
                  >
                  > Thanks for the thoughtful response. I agree with everything you said
                  > and all those things need to be done. Photos #4 & 5 are pretty
                  > amazing, esp. #5 which shows very precise alignment.
                  >
                  > You asked if the stucture has a crown to it From the photo it does
                  > look like it, but in memory it seems that the structure was level. I
                  > could be wrong, however, as I was not there very long. I didn't even
                  > try to dislodge or move a block or otherwise test anything. It just
                  > didn't occur to me at the time to test anything. All I wanted was to
                  > obtain photographs and happily I was able to do.
                  >
                  > It's probably of natural origin, but it's fun to speculate as the
                  > region is a legend-haunted one.
                  >
                  > HW
                • Susan
                  Steve Garcia., Herb, and All I see from the enlargement in your (Steve G. s) email what you are referring to and perhaps send the enlargement to Herb s
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jan 15, 2008
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                    Steve Garcia., Herb, and All

                    I see from the enlargement in your (Steve G.'s) email what you are
                    referring to and perhaps send the enlargement to Herb's emailbox, too.
                    With the imprint of the green into the circle on the unenlarged photo
                    on Herb's web site, I am wondering if Herb might have laid a circular
                    tripod or other poles into silt/mud into the river bottom at that
                    spot to cause the imbedded circular 'ring' since Herb has the photos
                    and was there. Herb, is there a lot of silt in parts of the river,
                    and what do you think? I was snorkeling at Rock Lake near Madison
                    years ago after a sweat lodge by a bunch of New Agers after reading
                    Frank Jospeh's Pyramids of Rock Lake book. Deep, deep silt, and he
                    speaks of the difficulty of investigating rock or any other
                    structures beneath deep, still water such as lakes, esp. in
                    agricultural or urban areas.

                    Sorry I am posting so much but at a dormant time away
                    from 'fieldwork' and most of us are up at least to our knees in snow,
                    isn't this armchair line of inquiry interesting? Remember that some
                    of this group's data can be applied to other, future leads and
                    avenues of investigation.

                    Welcome new member Richard from MA (Maine or Massechucetts?)

                    Susan

                    --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Garcia
                    <puppet@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Susan -
                    >
                    > I noted the comment by Chris and that particular photo, too, but -
                    maybe
                    > it is my old fogy eyes - all I see is a long leaf curled up. I saw
                    the
                    > round thing and wanted to see something there, but that is all I
                    see.
                    > Is it actually something IN the stone? Or is it an optical
                    illusion?
                    >
                    > I mean, it seems essentially the same color as the undersides of
                    the
                    > other leaves in the photo.
                    >
                    > At the same time, I DID wonder why Herb took the picture. If not
                    for
                    > that, then what for? My only guess was to show the tangle he had
                    to
                    > swim through.
                    >
                    > But if it is a really something in the stone, that is, of course, a
                    > different story.
                    >
                    > ***
                    > Okay: I saved the image to my hard drive, then opened it in a
                    graphics
                    > program and zoomed in on that 'circle'. It appears to me to be a
                    loop
                    > in a continuation - the end - of the long, slender leaf that
                    stretches
                    > diagonally across the image in a slightly sinuous pattern from the
                    lower
                    > left. I can even follow the leaf between the two - the sinuous
                    part and
                    > the loop at the end.
                    >
                    > There even seems to be another leaf below it.
                    >
                    > Here is the enlargement of that area:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Somebody tell me I am wrong...
                    >
                    > Herb? Did you actually see something there? Was this something on
                    the
                    > photo when you saw it later?
                    >
                    > Steve Garcia
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Susan wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Herb, Steve, and All,
                    > >
                    > > When I first opened the email reply from Christopher it had on the
                    > > page one of your little photos. Now it isn't and it boggles my
                    mind.
                    > > But I see what he was referreing to. Maybe Steve Garcia does, too.
                    > > He is an engineer and long into ancient studies. Steve is a
                    longtime
                    > > personal friend of Christopher Dunn, Hatcher Childress and some of
                    > > their associates while I am more an acquaintence through
                    conferences.
                    > >
                    > > Do you fellows and members at this message board see the circle
                    > > within the green reedy photo on Herb's new web page (within the
                    > > paragraph "That day, chilled by the...")?
                    > >
                    > > Dunn had written..."This photograph has a round depression in it
                    that
                    > > looks remarkably precise. Can you find out more? Thanks, Chris"
                    > > __
                    > >
                    >
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