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Re: Underwater "structure" in NW Wis?

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  • Susan
    Herb, Last night I forwarded your website to a friend, Christopher Dunn whom I met through the World Explorer s Club in Kempton, Illinois (David Hatcher
    Message 1 of 13 , Jan 13, 2008
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      Herb,

      Last night I forwarded your website to a friend, Christopher Dunn
      whom I met through the World Explorer's Club in Kempton, Illinois
      (David Hatcher Childress who many feel is Thor Heyerdahl's (Kon Tiki)
      protege.) He and Dunn are close, longtime friends, as is engineer
      Steve Garcia from Ancient Waterways Society, who also expressed
      interest in your findings to me via email last evening.

      Dunn is a member of the impressive Board of Directors for the Great
      Pyramid of Giza Research Association (http://www.gizapyramid.com/)and
      has published a best-sellling book on the Great Pyramid, The Giza
      Power Plant-Technologies of Ancient Egypt". Of numerous magazine
      articles, one you might be particularly interested in is "Advanced
      Machining in Ancient Egypt".

      Christopher also drove over from his home in Danville, Illinois to
      the Ohio AAAPF/Thor/Midwest Epigraphic Society Conference last
      October as one of our speakers. If you or other Ancient Waterways
      Society members want to read more about Dunn, his web site is:

      http://www.gizapyramid.com/BIO-Dunn.htm

      I and many with whom I am affiliated have found Dunn to carry the
      utmost integrity, both personally and professionally.

      Anyway, I knew he would be interested in Herb's photographs and web
      site, so sent a note to him last night. This morning received the
      following reply w/inclusion of one of the green weedy photos. See if
      any of you can spot what he is referring to; I'd not noticed it, but
      can see the circle below the weeds. Herb, can you find that exact
      site again in your excursion back there next spring???

      Susan

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Chris Dunn <cdunn1546@...>
      To: SuzEnglish@...
      Sent: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 12:13 pm
      Subject: RE: Check out ancient_waterways_society : Message:
      Underwater "road" or "structur

      Hi Susan,

      Thanks for the links, they are very interesting. This photograph has
      a round depression in it that looks remarkably precise. Can you find
      out more?

      Thanks,

      Chris

      ------------------------------------------------------------
      From: SuzEnglish@... [mailto:SuzEnglish@...]
      Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 7:42 AM
      To: CDunn1546@...
      Subject: Check out ancient_waterways_society : Message:
      Underwater "road" or "structur

      Chris,

      Below is a web site w/underwater photos from one of our Ancient
      Waterways Society members (Herb Wagner) sent yesterday. He has
      discovered what has the appearance of a road in an extremely remote
      are of NW Wisconsin, near a Lake Superior to Mississippi River
      tributary. He is leaving it up to further investigation whether or
      not the site is natural or man-made. Many of us who lived (and trout
      fished) in the area for decades has ever seen or heard about anything
      like that up there before. The only other photos that seem to
      resemble it (to me) are the "Bimini Road" in the Bahamas, though on a
      much larger scale of stone 'block'.

      He has a number of excellent web sites you might enjoy, esp. if you
      and your family plan a trip up into that area (not far from Bayfield
      and the Apostle Islands, then westward along Lake Superior into the
      Porcupine Mts. and Keweenaw County Copper Country. Herb's
      Wisconsin's Ancient Copper Mines web site has many of us including
      the NW region of Wisconsin as also a significant part of ancient
      copper trade, and might prove likely to have been a significant
      entrance to a direct trade route to the Mississippi.

      If you see anything that resembles the appearance of something man-
      made, please let the group or Herb Wagner know. Or anyone who knows
      how one determines dating and whether or not stone structures as such
      are natural or man-made.

      Steve Garcia is also one of the 20 members of our group, as is
      engineer Vince Barrows who spoke on Cahokia at the Ohio conference
      and has been doing a lot of preservation of Monks Mound and advocacy
      there.

      I know you all are busy with careers and your own research, books,
      family etc.

      Herb's photos and web sites might intrigue you.

      Thanks again,
      Susan

      ________________
      Click here: ancient_waterways_society : Message: Underwater "road"
      or "structure"?

      "Group,
      Months ago I posted about an underwater discovery I made last summer
      in Northern Wisconsin of a possible underwater road. I promised
      photos and finally found time to whip up a webpage containing a few
      images of this unusual feature. Please visit the following link and
      tell me what you think. It's still in somewhat rough form, but I
      would like your opinion on the following:

      Right now I'm calling it a "road" or "causeway." But upon
      consideration I really don't know what it is, so maybe I should
      change it to "possible structure of some kind" that looks like an
      ancient road, although it may well have a natural explanation as I
      also state.

      Thanks!
      [Herb]

      http://www.atthecreation.com/ROAD/UNDERWATER.RD.html

      --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "herbswoods"
      <herbswoods@...> wrote:

      Susan and others:

      I've changed the wording in the webpage from "road" to "structure"
      because really: What is it?

      I don't know the answer; perhaps other members can give their
      opinions and ideas.

      Upon looking at the photos some more, it occurs to me that if it is
      artificial in origin, it could be the TOP of a much larger and mostly
      buried structure. That is almost too extreme a position to take, but
      the possibility cannot be ignored.

      What I need to find are photos of actual human-built ruins or ancient
      roads that show similar "construction" to this site (in quotes
      because, again, it might well be natural in origin and probably is.)

      The overall size of the (exposed) portion of the site was relatively
      small, but I did not measure it. Trying to recall, I'd guess it was
      maybe 15-20 feet wide and maybe 30-50 feet long. Maybe larger. The
      stones were of various sizes, some large enough to be impossible for
      one man to move them, or even two men to move them, but that's just
      rough guesswork.

      I did not see anything else nearby: no mounds, pyramids, etc., but
      like I wrote, the surrounding area was dense vegetation and I did not
      explore it at all. My entire focus was on the "structure" itself. Nor
      did I explore the surrounding upland areas.

      If it's an artificial structure, somebody put a LOT of effort into
      building it and without any sign of modern tools or materials. One
      person could NOT have built it. If artificial, the purpose or intent
      of the site remains a puzzle and a mystery.

      H.W.

      --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
      <beldingenglish@> wrote:

      Herb,

      A very well-written web site, "Discovery of an Underwater Prehistoric
      Road in Northwest Wisconsin?", and the photographs absolutely knocked
      my socks off.

      I moved to Hurley, WI/Ironwood, MI during the late 50's, later lived
      a short time in Superior, WI. I fished brushy trout streams and
      larger Lake Superior tributaries but never saw anything remotely
      resembling what is shown in your photographs.

      Except when helping with two Ancient American Magazine conferences
      out West late 80's, early 90's when viewing photographs that divers
      Dr. William Donato (Washington State)and Frank Joseph had depicting
      the underwater "Bimini Road" near the Bahamas. One or two of your
      photos reminded me of the precisely fitted rectangular blocks, though
      yours seem smaller in size.

      Herb, about how wide and long were some of the paved surfaces you
      uncovered and did any branch off or come to a dead end? Did you see
      anything that resembled burial sites, stone or earthen mounds, rock
      piles, stone walls, etc.? Are any of the structures out on higher
      ground where logging occurred?

      The reason I ask was, that a few years ago a friend was surveying in
      a very remote location northeast of where you are talking about and
      discovered (has been ever since trying to what remains of a number of
      old, possibly ancient stone walls on wilderness land off the beaten
      path of old logging roads. Every wall also had large, surrounding
      stone piles or mounds nearby.

      One stone wall, half-covered with earth, grass, overgrown brush leads
      eerily down and well into a fairly deep lake. I never looked to see
      if there was anything like a road under the thick overgrowth and
      swampy shoreline. The sites I have investigated with him since lie
      within a mile of present day Lake Superior shores. I practically had
      to take a blood oath of secrecy until protection can be given to the
      sites, undoubtedly could never find the areas again. I am urging that
      photographs and carbon-dating be done soon so data and reports can be
      put together and the knowledge put to public use.

      It seems wise at this time you are keeping the whereabouts of the
      location quiet and I applaud your reverent intent to maintain the
      integrity of landscape and waterways, as you portray and describe so
      beautifully on your web sites. Little true wilderness remains any
      more. Many of us know of even well-intended diffusionist researchers
      who have wrought irreversible damage on the landscape searching for
      and/or removing artifacts for public and private museums and displays.

      Web sites such as this help many of us continue considering
      possibilites by sharing and putting together clues to this larger
      landscape of human habitation, possibly extending our history of
      these areas far back not only into early historic but very ancient
      past. I hope others enjoy Herb's web sites as much as I and perhaps
      will speculate about the photos. Please keep us posted on this
      exploration.
      _________________

      I miss hearing recent updates from Georgian member Jamie Clark re:
      the hundreds of seemingly old/ancient stone bird heads discovered a
      year or two in caves and sinkholes on private property. He weemed to
      be doing an excellent job fielding questions for the landowner and
      maintaining anonymity of the site location.

      Thanks for keeping us informed, Herb.

      Susan English

      --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "herbswoods"
      <herbswoods@> wrote:

      Group:

      Months ago I posted about an underwater discovery I made last summer
      in Northern Wisconsin of a possible underwater road. I promised
      photos and finally found time to whip up a webpage containing a few
      images of this unusual feature. Please visit the following link and
      tell me what you think. It's still in somewhat rough form, but I
      would like your opinion on the following:

      Right now I'm calling it a "road" or "causeway." But upon
      consideration I really don't know what it is, so maybe I should
      change it to "possible structure of some kind" that looks like an
      ancient road, although it may well have a natural explanation as I
      also state.

      Thanks!

      http://www.atthecreation.com/ROAD/UNDERWATER.RD.html
    • Susan
      Herb, All, I am going to throw in a couple of web links here in response to your inquiry about possible links on ancient roads, ruins, etc. that relate to this
      Message 2 of 13 , Jan 13, 2008
      • 0 Attachment
        Herb, All,

        I am going to throw in a couple of web links here in response to your
        inquiry about possible links on ancient roads, ruins, etc. that
        relate to this fun new NW Wisconsin mystery.

        1. I will let those interestedeted Google "Bimini Road" to check out
        photos...not very similar but a couple of photos I recall seeing a
        few years ago showed a more similar stretch of rectangular stones to
        Herb's photos. Rick "Oz" in our group interviewd William Donato on
        Oopa Loopa Cafe radio recently. I was on a Red Cross mission then
        and have not listened to the program from the archives. But Donato
        and Frank Joseph from Ancient American are both divers, longtime
        friends. I mentioned before Bill was at at least two Ancient American
        conference years ago out West; I saw some of his photos of Bimini
        then.

        But possibly more interesting, Herb and those of you who will be
        following his progress is the following article, listed under the
        title Ancient Archaeology, "BIMINI ROAD, ANALYSIS" from A SCIENTIFIC
        SELECTION OF WEB INFORMATION ON ANCIENT UNDERWATER RUINS AND OTHER
        REMARKABLE FINDS:

        http://www.altarcheologie.nl/index.html?
        underwater_ruins/bimini/bimini_analysis.htm

        Starts very interestingly: "Firstly one should not be confused by the
        word "road", this is only a convenient looking name given by the
        first discoverers. One should see the road initially just as what it
        is: a collection of stones. The question is: are the shape and
        arrangement of these stones such that they are artificial, made by
        man. The usual arguments for this are: regularity, straight lines
        (not circles, nature is pretty good at making circles), some kinds of
        symmetry (not all: natural crystals can also be symmetric, but they
        are usually not bigger than a decimeter), and the like."...

        I will let you read the rest. The article refers to an ocean rock
        structure but likely the same rules apply. (I feel as though I am in
        school again).

        2. Possibly not relative, but something to consider since the article
        stems from an area in close approximation to Herb's tributary of Lake
        Superior re: a wooden crib from the 1870's that washed up on a Duluth
        shore. It mentions something about a "stone road on top". To me, all
        diagrams, photos of rocks don't show anything that even resembles the
        precision of Herb's underwater pattern of large rectangular stones.

        Article is called "Duluth Chapter Helps With Washed Up Crib":

        http://www.glsps.org/crib_project/duluth_crib_project.htm

        What I think it does tell us, though, is that 1800's structures as
        such were likely partially or fully constructed of logs or wood.
        Another example along Lake Superior where I often am the only one
        camping is at Misery Bay was formerly called "Carver's Bay or Carver
        Bay" after explorer Jonathan Carver who Herb discusses in his web
        sites. There is also an Amazon.com book called "Misery Bay and Other
        Stories from Michigan's Upper Peninsula" listed under Mysteries &
        Horror. I'll vouch for that part when camping alone late some
        nights...where the Misery River and Misery Bay come together. I
        generally don't reveal my favorite private camping and kayak spots,
        but this link and photos will show you how remote and beautiful it
        is. Just before the road to Misery Bay turns gravel, on the left in
        front of an old wooden church (turned town hall), along the road is
        an open spigot of pure, artesian water continuously spewing out for
        anyone in the world to help themselves to, and I usually take up
        thirty or fory empty gallon bottles:

        http://hunts-upguide.com/toivola_misery_bay.html

        Misery Bay is one of the places I have mentioned before where I sit
        around a fire late at night, occasionally beneath the spell of Aurora
        Borealis and let 'Mother Nature' try to teach me to think more like
        the ancients who might have also taken refuge there overnight. At the
        entrance to the parking lot is a sign that tells of its origins and
        of Jonathan Carver being there, shipwrecks, terrific storms, earlier
        site of Indian battles, etc., hence later named "Misery" Bay. Very
        old U. of Michigan archaeological maps show even earlier ancient
        Indian habitation, burial sites. The reason I mention this site is
        that some springtimes when the snow and ice recede, old historic
        wooden pilings or skids? peek through the sands in the bay where
        ships were once pulled up or docked. I have stubbed my feet on the
        old pilings sometimes, the water so cold things don't decay fast in
        Lake Superior. Sand has filled the bay over time, but still no
        evidence whatever of any stone structures there. Perhaps a good idea
        to put on snorkeling gear (maybe) to get a better look-see in the
        Misery River, Firesteel and Flintsteel Rivers south toward Ontonagon.
        Below that is where I spent my teens toward Little Girls Point, MI
        and over to Saxon Harbor, Ashland, Bayfield, then farther over to
        Superior (WI)-Duluth (MN).

        None of my old woodsman, hunting and fishing friends from the area
        have ever seen rocks aligned like that anywhere, or even that shape
        anywhere up there and I am sure will also be follow the progress of
        Herb and you who get into this inquiry...

        Susan

        . --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
        <beldingenglish@...> wrote:
        >
        > Herb,
        >
        > Last night I forwarded your website to a friend, Christopher Dunn
        > whom I met through the World Explorer's Club in Kempton, Illinois
        > (David Hatcher Childress who many feel is Thor Heyerdahl's (Kon
        Tiki)
        > protege.) He and Dunn are close, longtime friends, as is engineer
        > Steve Garcia from Ancient Waterways Society, who also expressed
        > interest in your findings to me via email last evening.
        >
        > Dunn is a member of the impressive Board of Directors for the Great
        > Pyramid of Giza Research Association (http://www.gizapyramid.com/)
        and
        > has published a best-sellling book on the Great Pyramid, The Giza
        > Power Plant-Technologies of Ancient Egypt". Of numerous magazine
        > articles, one you might be particularly interested in is "Advanced
        > Machining in Ancient Egypt".
        >
        > Christopher also drove over from his home in Danville, Illinois to
        > the Ohio AAAPF/Thor/Midwest Epigraphic Society Conference last
        > October as one of our speakers. If you or other Ancient Waterways
        > Society members want to read more about Dunn, his web site is:
        >
        > http://www.gizapyramid.com/BIO-Dunn.htm
        >
        > I and many with whom I am affiliated have found Dunn to carry the
        > utmost integrity, both personally and professionally.
        >
        > Anyway, I knew he would be interested in Herb's photographs and web
        > site, so sent a note to him last night. This morning received the
        > following reply w/inclusion of one of the green weedy photos. See
        if
        > any of you can spot what he is referring to; I'd not noticed it,
        but
        > can see the circle below the weeds. Herb, can you find that exact
        > site again in your excursion back there next spring???
        >
        > Susan
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: Chris Dunn <cdunn1546@...>
        > To: SuzEnglish@...
        > Sent: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 12:13 pm
        > Subject: RE: Check out ancient_waterways_society : Message:
        > Underwater "road" or "structur
        >
        > Hi Susan,
        >
        > Thanks for the links, they are very interesting. This photograph
        has
        > a round depression in it that looks remarkably precise. Can you
        find
        > out more?
        >
        > Thanks,
        >
        > Chris
        >
        > ------------------------------------------------------------
        > From: SuzEnglish@... [mailto:SuzEnglish@...]
        > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 7:42 AM
        > To: CDunn1546@...
        > Subject: Check out ancient_waterways_society : Message:
        > Underwater "road" or "structur
        >
        > Chris,
        >
        > Below is a web site w/underwater photos from one of our Ancient
        > Waterways Society members (Herb Wagner) sent yesterday. He has
        > discovered what has the appearance of a road in an extremely remote
        > are of NW Wisconsin, near a Lake Superior to Mississippi River
        > tributary. He is leaving it up to further investigation whether or
        > not the site is natural or man-made. Many of us who lived (and
        trout
        > fished) in the area for decades has ever seen or heard about
        anything
        > like that up there before. The only other photos that seem to
        > resemble it (to me) are the "Bimini Road" in the Bahamas, though on
        a
        > much larger scale of stone 'block'.
        >
        > He has a number of excellent web sites you might enjoy, esp. if you
        > and your family plan a trip up into that area (not far from
        Bayfield
        > and the Apostle Islands, then westward along Lake Superior into the
        > Porcupine Mts. and Keweenaw County Copper Country. Herb's
        > Wisconsin's Ancient Copper Mines web site has many of us including
        > the NW region of Wisconsin as also a significant part of ancient
        > copper trade, and might prove likely to have been a significant
        > entrance to a direct trade route to the Mississippi.
        >
        > If you see anything that resembles the appearance of something man-
        > made, please let the group or Herb Wagner know. Or anyone who
        knows
        > how one determines dating and whether or not stone structures as
        such
        > are natural or man-made.
        >
        > Steve Garcia is also one of the 20 members of our group, as is
        > engineer Vince Barrows who spoke on Cahokia at the Ohio conference
        > and has been doing a lot of preservation of Monks Mound and
        advocacy
        > there.
        >
        > I know you all are busy with careers and your own research, books,
        > family etc.
        >
        > Herb's photos and web sites might intrigue you.
        >
        > Thanks again,
        > Susan
        >
        > ________________
        > Click here: ancient_waterways_society : Message: Underwater "road"
        > or "structure"?
        >
        > "Group,
        > Months ago I posted about an underwater discovery I made last
        summer
        > in Northern Wisconsin of a possible underwater road. I promised
        > photos and finally found time to whip up a webpage containing a few
        > images of this unusual feature. Please visit the following link and
        > tell me what you think. It's still in somewhat rough form, but I
        > would like your opinion on the following:
        >
        > Right now I'm calling it a "road" or "causeway." But upon
        > consideration I really don't know what it is, so maybe I should
        > change it to "possible structure of some kind" that looks like an
        > ancient road, although it may well have a natural explanation as I
        > also state.
        >
        > Thanks!
        > [Herb]
        >
        > http://www.atthecreation.com/ROAD/UNDERWATER.RD.html
        >
        > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "herbswoods"
        > <herbswoods@> wrote:
        >
        > Susan and others:
        >
        > I've changed the wording in the webpage from "road" to "structure"
        > because really: What is it?
        >
        > I don't know the answer; perhaps other members can give their
        > opinions and ideas.
        >
        > Upon looking at the photos some more, it occurs to me that if it is
        > artificial in origin, it could be the TOP of a much larger and
        mostly
        > buried structure. That is almost too extreme a position to take,
        but
        > the possibility cannot be ignored.
        >
        > What I need to find are photos of actual human-built ruins or
        ancient
        > roads that show similar "construction" to this site (in quotes
        > because, again, it might well be natural in origin and probably is.)
        >
        > The overall size of the (exposed) portion of the site was relatively
        > small, but I did not measure it. Trying to recall, I'd guess it was
        > maybe 15-20 feet wide and maybe 30-50 feet long. Maybe larger. The
        > stones were of various sizes, some large enough to be impossible for
        > one man to move them, or even two men to move them, but that's just
        > rough guesswork.
        >
        > I did not see anything else nearby: no mounds, pyramids, etc., but
        > like I wrote, the surrounding area was dense vegetation and I did
        not
        > explore it at all. My entire focus was on the "structure" itself.
        Nor
        > did I explore the surrounding upland areas.
        >
        > If it's an artificial structure, somebody put a LOT of effort into
        > building it and without any sign of modern tools or materials. One
        > person could NOT have built it. If artificial, the purpose or intent
        > of the site remains a puzzle and a mystery.
        >
        > H.W.
        >
        > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
        > <beldingenglish@> wrote:
        >
        > Herb,
        >
        > A very well-written web site, "Discovery of an Underwater
        Prehistoric
        > Road in Northwest Wisconsin?", and the photographs absolutely
        knocked
        > my socks off.
        >
        > I moved to Hurley, WI/Ironwood, MI during the late 50's, later
        lived
        > a short time in Superior, WI. I fished brushy trout streams and
        > larger Lake Superior tributaries but never saw anything remotely
        > resembling what is shown in your photographs.
        >
        > Except when helping with two Ancient American Magazine conferences
        > out West late 80's, early 90's when viewing photographs that divers
        > Dr. William Donato (Washington State)and Frank Joseph had depicting
        > the underwater "Bimini Road" near the Bahamas. One or two of your
        > photos reminded me of the precisely fitted rectangular blocks,
        though
        > yours seem smaller in size.
        >
        > Herb, about how wide and long were some of the paved surfaces you
        > uncovered and did any branch off or come to a dead end? Did you
        see
        > anything that resembled burial sites, stone or earthen mounds, rock
        > piles, stone walls, etc.? Are any of the structures out on higher
        > ground where logging occurred?
        >
        > The reason I ask was, that a few years ago a friend was surveying
        in
        > a very remote location northeast of where you are talking about and
        > discovered (has been ever since trying to what remains of a number
        of
        > old, possibly ancient stone walls on wilderness land off the beaten
        > path of old logging roads. Every wall also had large, surrounding
        > stone piles or mounds nearby.
        >
        > One stone wall, half-covered with earth, grass, overgrown brush
        leads
        > eerily down and well into a fairly deep lake. I never looked to see
        > if there was anything like a road under the thick overgrowth and
        > swampy shoreline. The sites I have investigated with him since lie
        > within a mile of present day Lake Superior shores. I practically
        had
        > to take a blood oath of secrecy until protection can be given to
        the
        > sites, undoubtedly could never find the areas again. I am urging
        that
        > photographs and carbon-dating be done soon so data and reports can
        be
        > put together and the knowledge put to public use.
        >
        > It seems wise at this time you are keeping the whereabouts of the
        > location quiet and I applaud your reverent intent to maintain the
        > integrity of landscape and waterways, as you portray and describe
        so
        > beautifully on your web sites. Little true wilderness remains any
        > more. Many of us know of even well-intended diffusionist
        researchers
        > who have wrought irreversible damage on the landscape searching for
        > and/or removing artifacts for public and private museums and
        displays.
        >
        > Web sites such as this help many of us continue considering
        > possibilites by sharing and putting together clues to this larger
        > landscape of human habitation, possibly extending our history of
        > these areas far back not only into early historic but very ancient
        > past. I hope others enjoy Herb's web sites as much as I and perhaps
        > will speculate about the photos. Please keep us posted on this
        > exploration.
        > _________________
        >
        > I miss hearing recent updates from Georgian member Jamie Clark re:
        > the hundreds of seemingly old/ancient stone bird heads discovered a
        > year or two in caves and sinkholes on private property. He weemed
        to
        > be doing an excellent job fielding questions for the landowner and
        > maintaining anonymity of the site location.
        >
        > Thanks for keeping us informed, Herb.
        >
        > Susan English
        >
        > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "herbswoods"
        > <herbswoods@> wrote:
        >
        > Group:
        >
        > Months ago I posted about an underwater discovery I made last summer
        > in Northern Wisconsin of a possible underwater road. I promised
        > photos and finally found time to whip up a webpage containing a few
        > images of this unusual feature. Please visit the following link and
        > tell me what you think. It's still in somewhat rough form, but I
        > would like your opinion on the following:
        >
        > Right now I'm calling it a "road" or "causeway." But upon
        > consideration I really don't know what it is, so maybe I should
        > change it to "possible structure of some kind" that looks like an
        > ancient road, although it may well have a natural explanation as I
        > also state.
        >
        > Thanks!
        >
        > http://www.atthecreation.com/ROAD/UNDERWATER.RD.html
        >
      • bigalemc2
        Herb - Great photos! Well, you certainly have turned up something unusual. It took me a while to look at these, finally, but I did and am glad to see them. I
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 13, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          Herb -

          Great photos!

          Well, you certainly have turned up something unusual.

          It took me a while to look at these, finally, but I did and am glad to see them.

          I can hardly add anything to your speculations on them.  You've covered most of the possibilities.

          My POV on the photos is that you have good reason to think they are man-made.  They look more man-made than the Bimini road, to me.  The first photo was narrow enough that I thought it was a wash between man-made and natural, but in the latter ones the weight of the argument - IMHO - pushed over to the man-made end of the spectrum.

          Personally, what I like to do is to argue that they are what I DON'T want them to be, and see if that holds water - without getting bozo with speculation and diversion from Occam's Razor, which says that the simpler explanation that covers all the bases is probably the correct one.  More than a few little questions come to mind, so I will lay out what those are, for what it is worth.

          Numbering the photos from top to bottom #1 through #5:

          #1 questions and notes:
          1. What kind of stone is it?
          2. Is there any evidence that the stone(s) was not laid there naturally?
          3. Is the kind of stone present known to crack naturally in straight lines?
          4. Does this kind of stone also crack naturally in such a near-rectilinear fashion?  Some may, most would not seem to.
          5. This photo does not show right angles on all the cracks.
          6. How uniformly wide are the cracks? 
          7. If they were naturally formed, is there evidence that all the cracks might have been formed naturally at the same time, under the same forces or influences?
          8. How extensive is the entire stone area?
          9. Does the area extend under the aquatic vegetation upstream or down?
          10. Does the area extend under the river bank?
          11. Are the edges of the entire stone area natural-looking?
          12. How level is the top surface?
          13. How deep are the stones set into the river bottom?
          14. Is there more than one layer?  (This mirrors your idea that they may be the roof of a structure.)
          15. What underlies the stone area?
          16. Does the alignment follow along the bottom of the river bed?  Across it?  At an angle?
          Some of these are trite questions, but these and more need to be asked to determine if the formation is natural.

          Photo #2 and #3:  I do not see any stone in those.

          Photo #4 - all the same questions and comments apply as to photo #1, plus:
          1. This one raised my eyebrows.  A LOT.
          2. This pattern would be difficult to argue as natural
          3. The right angles are quite evident
          4. The alignment of the cross joints is amazing if naturally formed
          5. The two narrower stones have nearly aligned cracks on both sides, which make it hard to argue for natural formation
          6. The crack between the larger stone and the one 'above' it seems not to have parallel sides, which would tend to argue it is naturally formed
          7. The top surface does seem to be essentially flat, if not level
          Photo #5 - all the same questions and comments apply as to photo #1 and #4, plus:
          1. The pattern is definitely rectilinear
          2. This seems to suggest a long, linear pattern to the area, similar to a road or a paved ford
          3. Are the long cracks parallel?  If so, to what degree?
          4. The 'roadway' seems to be crowned.  Is that an illusion or true?
          5. One stone in the top of the photo does not match up crack-to-crack with those around it, in the simplest rectilinear pattern.  The mating one on the right is actually two stones.  Does this occur elsewhere?  (This seems to suggest that natural forces did not crack the two on the right, since the natural force would also have been trying to crack the single one, too.)
          Photos #4 and #5 are pretty amazing.

          Old maps would seem to be the order of the day, to see if any show any road here known to early settlers or to known industries in the area.

          You have to show that these are not known to anyone at any earlier time.  I suggest reading this book: The Island of Seven Cities: Where the Chinese Settled When They Discovered AmericaThe author went through the same kind of proving out - to himself - that your site will pretty much need to do.  He assumed that the site he'd found was known to earlier settlers, then exhausted every one of those possibilities.  What was left was not what he had ever considered possible, but it turned out to be the probable answer.

          I do not profess to have covered all the possible questions, nor to have any great insight into anything about this.  If any of the above helps you in your thinking, Herb, go for it.

          Steve Garcia
        • herbswoods
          Susan, Thanks for the Bimini road websites. Of course I ve heard of that locale before, but have never studied it and I ll do so now. Notice how I fell into
          Message 4 of 13 , Jan 15, 2008
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            Susan,

            Thanks for the Bimini "road" websites. Of course I've heard of that
            locale before, but have never studied it and I'll do so now.

            Notice how I fell into the same first response mentioned there to call
            my discovery a "road." But after thinking about it, while it does
            rather look like a road, I don't that's what it is or that it's not
            natural. For now the webpage is done, but I might go back and change
            it upon more study.

            Yes, I too have seen old structures and pilings around Superior Bay,
            mouth of Amnicon River, and in the U.P. Never have visited Misery Bay,
            but am familiar with the story behind the name. I have also seen old
            bridge footings and pilings in area streams, but the site I discovered
            doesn't look at all like that stuff. Unique and strikingly different
            from anything else.

            Also, your colleague Chris asked remarked: "This photograph
            has a round depression in it that looks remarkably precise."

            Which photo was he referring to? Not sure what "round depression" he's
            talking about but I'm interested.

            Thanks!
            HW

            --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
            <beldingenglish@...> wrote:
            >
            > Herb, All,
            >
            > I am going to throw in a couple of web links here in response to your
            > inquiry about possible links on ancient roads, ruins, etc. that
            > relate to this fun new NW Wisconsin mystery.
            >
            > 1. I will let those interestedeted Google "Bimini Road" to check out
            > photos...not very similar but a couple of photos I recall seeing a
            > few years ago showed a more similar stretch of rectangular stones to
            > Herb's photos. Rick "Oz" in our group interviewd William Donato on
            > Oopa Loopa Cafe radio recently. I was on a Red Cross mission then
            > and have not listened to the program from the archives. But Donato
            > and Frank Joseph from Ancient American are both divers, longtime
            > friends. I mentioned before Bill was at at least two Ancient American
            > conference years ago out West; I saw some of his photos of Bimini
            > then.
            >
            > But possibly more interesting, Herb and those of you who will be
            > following his progress is the following article, listed under the
            > title Ancient Archaeology, "BIMINI ROAD, ANALYSIS" from A SCIENTIFIC
            > SELECTION OF WEB INFORMATION ON ANCIENT UNDERWATER RUINS AND OTHER
            > REMARKABLE FINDS:
            >
            > http://www.altarcheologie.nl/index.html?
            > underwater_ruins/bimini/bimini_analysis.htm
            >
            > Starts very interestingly: "Firstly one should not be confused by the
            > word "road", this is only a convenient looking name given by the
            > first discoverers. One should see the road initially just as what it
            > is: a collection of stones. The question is: are the shape and
            > arrangement of these stones such that they are artificial, made by
            > man. The usual arguments for this are: regularity, straight lines
            > (not circles, nature is pretty good at making circles), some kinds of
            > symmetry (not all: natural crystals can also be symmetric, but they
            > are usually not bigger than a decimeter), and the like."...
            >
            > I will let you read the rest. The article refers to an ocean rock
            > structure but likely the same rules apply. (I feel as though I am in
            > school again).
            >
            > 2. Possibly not relative, but something to consider since the article
            > stems from an area in close approximation to Herb's tributary of Lake
            > Superior re: a wooden crib from the 1870's that washed up on a Duluth
            > shore. It mentions something about a "stone road on top". To me, all
            > diagrams, photos of rocks don't show anything that even resembles the
            > precision of Herb's underwater pattern of large rectangular stones.
            >
            > Article is called "Duluth Chapter Helps With Washed Up Crib":
            >
            > http://www.glsps.org/crib_project/duluth_crib_project.htm
            >
            > What I think it does tell us, though, is that 1800's structures as
            > such were likely partially or fully constructed of logs or wood.
            > Another example along Lake Superior where I often am the only one
            > camping is at Misery Bay was formerly called "Carver's Bay or Carver
            > Bay" after explorer Jonathan Carver who Herb discusses in his web
            > sites. There is also an Amazon.com book called "Misery Bay and Other
            > Stories from Michigan's Upper Peninsula" listed under Mysteries &
            > Horror. I'll vouch for that part when camping alone late some
            > nights...where the Misery River and Misery Bay come together. I
            > generally don't reveal my favorite private camping and kayak spots,
            > but this link and photos will show you how remote and beautiful it
            > is. Just before the road to Misery Bay turns gravel, on the left in
            > front of an old wooden church (turned town hall), along the road is
            > an open spigot of pure, artesian water continuously spewing out for
            > anyone in the world to help themselves to, and I usually take up
            > thirty or fory empty gallon bottles:
            >
            > http://hunts-upguide.com/toivola_misery_bay.html
            >
            > Misery Bay is one of the places I have mentioned before where I sit
            > around a fire late at night, occasionally beneath the spell of Aurora
            > Borealis and let 'Mother Nature' try to teach me to think more like
            > the ancients who might have also taken refuge there overnight. At the
            > entrance to the parking lot is a sign that tells of its origins and
            > of Jonathan Carver being there, shipwrecks, terrific storms, earlier
            > site of Indian battles, etc., hence later named "Misery" Bay. Very
            > old U. of Michigan archaeological maps show even earlier ancient
            > Indian habitation, burial sites. The reason I mention this site is
            > that some springtimes when the snow and ice recede, old historic
            > wooden pilings or skids? peek through the sands in the bay where
            > ships were once pulled up or docked. I have stubbed my feet on the
            > old pilings sometimes, the water so cold things don't decay fast in
            > Lake Superior. Sand has filled the bay over time, but still no
            > evidence whatever of any stone structures there. Perhaps a good idea
            > to put on snorkeling gear (maybe) to get a better look-see in the
            > Misery River, Firesteel and Flintsteel Rivers south toward Ontonagon.
            > Below that is where I spent my teens toward Little Girls Point, MI
            > and over to Saxon Harbor, Ashland, Bayfield, then farther over to
            > Superior (WI)-Duluth (MN).
            >
            > None of my old woodsman, hunting and fishing friends from the area
            > have ever seen rocks aligned like that anywhere, or even that shape
            > anywhere up there and I am sure will also be follow the progress of
            > Herb and you who get into this inquiry...
            >
            > Susan
            >
            > . --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
            > <beldingenglish@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Herb,
            > >
            > > Last night I forwarded your website to a friend, Christopher Dunn
            > > whom I met through the World Explorer's Club in Kempton, Illinois
            > > (David Hatcher Childress who many feel is Thor Heyerdahl's (Kon
            > Tiki)
            > > protege.) He and Dunn are close, longtime friends, as is engineer
            > > Steve Garcia from Ancient Waterways Society, who also expressed
            > > interest in your findings to me via email last evening.
            > >
            > > Dunn is a member of the impressive Board of Directors for the Great
            > > Pyramid of Giza Research Association (http://www.gizapyramid.com/)
            > and
            > > has published a best-sellling book on the Great Pyramid, The Giza
            > > Power Plant-Technologies of Ancient Egypt". Of numerous magazine
            > > articles, one you might be particularly interested in is "Advanced
            > > Machining in Ancient Egypt".
            > >
            > > Christopher also drove over from his home in Danville, Illinois to
            > > the Ohio AAAPF/Thor/Midwest Epigraphic Society Conference last
            > > October as one of our speakers. If you or other Ancient Waterways
            > > Society members want to read more about Dunn, his web site is:
            > >
            > > http://www.gizapyramid.com/BIO-Dunn.htm
            > >
            > > I and many with whom I am affiliated have found Dunn to carry the
            > > utmost integrity, both personally and professionally.
            > >
            > > Anyway, I knew he would be interested in Herb's photographs and web
            > > site, so sent a note to him last night. This morning received the
            > > following reply w/inclusion of one of the green weedy photos. See
            > if
            > > any of you can spot what he is referring to; I'd not noticed it,
            > but
            > > can see the circle below the weeds. Herb, can you find that exact
            > > site again in your excursion back there next spring???
            > >
            > > Susan
            > >
            > > -----Original Message-----
            > > From: Chris Dunn <cdunn1546@>
            > > To: SuzEnglish@
            > > Sent: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 12:13 pm
            > > Subject: RE: Check out ancient_waterways_society : Message:
            > > Underwater "road" or "structur
            > >
            > > Hi Susan,
            > >
            > > Thanks for the links, they are very interesting. This photograph
            > has
            > > a round depression in it that looks remarkably precise. Can you
            > find
            > > out more?
            > >
            > > Thanks,
            > >
            > > Chris
            > >
            > > ------------------------------------------------------------
            > > From: SuzEnglish@ [mailto:SuzEnglish@]
            > > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 7:42 AM
            > > To: CDunn1546@
            > > Subject: Check out ancient_waterways_society : Message:
            > > Underwater "road" or "structur
            > >
            > > Chris,
            > >
            > > Below is a web site w/underwater photos from one of our Ancient
            > > Waterways Society members (Herb Wagner) sent yesterday. He has
            > > discovered what has the appearance of a road in an extremely remote
            > > are of NW Wisconsin, near a Lake Superior to Mississippi River
            > > tributary. He is leaving it up to further investigation whether or
            > > not the site is natural or man-made. Many of us who lived (and
            > trout
            > > fished) in the area for decades has ever seen or heard about
            > anything
            > > like that up there before. The only other photos that seem to
            > > resemble it (to me) are the "Bimini Road" in the Bahamas, though on
            > a
            > > much larger scale of stone 'block'.
            > >
            > > He has a number of excellent web sites you might enjoy, esp. if you
            > > and your family plan a trip up into that area (not far from
            > Bayfield
            > > and the Apostle Islands, then westward along Lake Superior into the
            > > Porcupine Mts. and Keweenaw County Copper Country. Herb's
            > > Wisconsin's Ancient Copper Mines web site has many of us including
            > > the NW region of Wisconsin as also a significant part of ancient
            > > copper trade, and might prove likely to have been a significant
            > > entrance to a direct trade route to the Mississippi.
            > >
            > > If you see anything that resembles the appearance of something man-
            > > made, please let the group or Herb Wagner know. Or anyone who
            > knows
            > > how one determines dating and whether or not stone structures as
            > such
            > > are natural or man-made.
            > >
            > > Steve Garcia is also one of the 20 members of our group, as is
            > > engineer Vince Barrows who spoke on Cahokia at the Ohio conference
            > > and has been doing a lot of preservation of Monks Mound and
            > advocacy
            > > there.
            > >
            > > I know you all are busy with careers and your own research, books,
            > > family etc.
            > >
            > > Herb's photos and web sites might intrigue you.
            > >
            > > Thanks again,
            > > Susan
            > >
            > > ________________
            > > Click here: ancient_waterways_society : Message: Underwater "road"
            > > or "structure"?
            > >
            > > "Group,
            > > Months ago I posted about an underwater discovery I made last
            > summer
            > > in Northern Wisconsin of a possible underwater road. I promised
            > > photos and finally found time to whip up a webpage containing a few
            > > images of this unusual feature. Please visit the following link and
            > > tell me what you think. It's still in somewhat rough form, but I
            > > would like your opinion on the following:
            > >
            > > Right now I'm calling it a "road" or "causeway." But upon
            > > consideration I really don't know what it is, so maybe I should
            > > change it to "possible structure of some kind" that looks like an
            > > ancient road, although it may well have a natural explanation as I
            > > also state.
            > >
            > > Thanks!
            > > [Herb]
            > >
            > > http://www.atthecreation.com/ROAD/UNDERWATER.RD.html
            > >
            > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "herbswoods"
            > > <herbswoods@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Susan and others:
            > >
            > > I've changed the wording in the webpage from "road" to "structure"
            > > because really: What is it?
            > >
            > > I don't know the answer; perhaps other members can give their
            > > opinions and ideas.
            > >
            > > Upon looking at the photos some more, it occurs to me that if it is
            > > artificial in origin, it could be the TOP of a much larger and
            > mostly
            > > buried structure. That is almost too extreme a position to take,
            > but
            > > the possibility cannot be ignored.
            > >
            > > What I need to find are photos of actual human-built ruins or
            > ancient
            > > roads that show similar "construction" to this site (in quotes
            > > because, again, it might well be natural in origin and probably is.)
            > >
            > > The overall size of the (exposed) portion of the site was relatively
            > > small, but I did not measure it. Trying to recall, I'd guess it was
            > > maybe 15-20 feet wide and maybe 30-50 feet long. Maybe larger. The
            > > stones were of various sizes, some large enough to be impossible for
            > > one man to move them, or even two men to move them, but that's just
            > > rough guesswork.
            > >
            > > I did not see anything else nearby: no mounds, pyramids, etc., but
            > > like I wrote, the surrounding area was dense vegetation and I did
            > not
            > > explore it at all. My entire focus was on the "structure" itself.
            > Nor
            > > did I explore the surrounding upland areas.
            > >
            > > If it's an artificial structure, somebody put a LOT of effort into
            > > building it and without any sign of modern tools or materials. One
            > > person could NOT have built it. If artificial, the purpose or intent
            > > of the site remains a puzzle and a mystery.
            > >
            > > H.W.
            > >
            > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
            > > <beldingenglish@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Herb,
            > >
            > > A very well-written web site, "Discovery of an Underwater
            > Prehistoric
            > > Road in Northwest Wisconsin?", and the photographs absolutely
            > knocked
            > > my socks off.
            > >
            > > I moved to Hurley, WI/Ironwood, MI during the late 50's, later
            > lived
            > > a short time in Superior, WI. I fished brushy trout streams and
            > > larger Lake Superior tributaries but never saw anything remotely
            > > resembling what is shown in your photographs.
            > >
            > > Except when helping with two Ancient American Magazine conferences
            > > out West late 80's, early 90's when viewing photographs that divers
            > > Dr. William Donato (Washington State)and Frank Joseph had depicting
            > > the underwater "Bimini Road" near the Bahamas. One or two of your
            > > photos reminded me of the precisely fitted rectangular blocks,
            > though
            > > yours seem smaller in size.
            > >
            > > Herb, about how wide and long were some of the paved surfaces you
            > > uncovered and did any branch off or come to a dead end? Did you
            > see
            > > anything that resembled burial sites, stone or earthen mounds, rock
            > > piles, stone walls, etc.? Are any of the structures out on higher
            > > ground where logging occurred?
            > >
            > > The reason I ask was, that a few years ago a friend was surveying
            > in
            > > a very remote location northeast of where you are talking about and
            > > discovered (has been ever since trying to what remains of a number
            > of
            > > old, possibly ancient stone walls on wilderness land off the beaten
            > > path of old logging roads. Every wall also had large, surrounding
            > > stone piles or mounds nearby.
            > >
            > > One stone wall, half-covered with earth, grass, overgrown brush
            > leads
            > > eerily down and well into a fairly deep lake. I never looked to see
            > > if there was anything like a road under the thick overgrowth and
            > > swampy shoreline. The sites I have investigated with him since lie
            > > within a mile of present day Lake Superior shores. I practically
            > had
            > > to take a blood oath of secrecy until protection can be given to
            > the
            > > sites, undoubtedly could never find the areas again. I am urging
            > that
            > > photographs and carbon-dating be done soon so data and reports can
            > be
            > > put together and the knowledge put to public use.
            > >
            > > It seems wise at this time you are keeping the whereabouts of the
            > > location quiet and I applaud your reverent intent to maintain the
            > > integrity of landscape and waterways, as you portray and describe
            > so
            > > beautifully on your web sites. Little true wilderness remains any
            > > more. Many of us know of even well-intended diffusionist
            > researchers
            > > who have wrought irreversible damage on the landscape searching for
            > > and/or removing artifacts for public and private museums and
            > displays.
            > >
            > > Web sites such as this help many of us continue considering
            > > possibilites by sharing and putting together clues to this larger
            > > landscape of human habitation, possibly extending our history of
            > > these areas far back not only into early historic but very ancient
            > > past. I hope others enjoy Herb's web sites as much as I and perhaps
            > > will speculate about the photos. Please keep us posted on this
            > > exploration.
            > > _________________
            > >
            > > I miss hearing recent updates from Georgian member Jamie Clark re:
            > > the hundreds of seemingly old/ancient stone bird heads discovered a
            > > year or two in caves and sinkholes on private property. He weemed
            > to
            > > be doing an excellent job fielding questions for the landowner and
            > > maintaining anonymity of the site location.
            > >
            > > Thanks for keeping us informed, Herb.
            > >
            > > Susan English
            > >
            > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "herbswoods"
            > > <herbswoods@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Group:
            > >
            > > Months ago I posted about an underwater discovery I made last summer
            > > in Northern Wisconsin of a possible underwater road. I promised
            > > photos and finally found time to whip up a webpage containing a few
            > > images of this unusual feature. Please visit the following link and
            > > tell me what you think. It's still in somewhat rough form, but I
            > > would like your opinion on the following:
            > >
            > > Right now I'm calling it a "road" or "causeway." But upon
            > > consideration I really don't know what it is, so maybe I should
            > > change it to "possible structure of some kind" that looks like an
            > > ancient road, although it may well have a natural explanation as I
            > > also state.
            > >
            > > Thanks!
            > >
            > > http://www.atthecreation.com/ROAD/UNDERWATER.RD.html
            > >
            >
          • Susan
            Herb, Steve, and All, When I first opened the email reply from Christopher it had on the page one of your little photos. Now it isn t and it boggles my mind.
            Message 5 of 13 , Jan 15, 2008
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              Herb, Steve, and All,

              When I first opened the email reply from Christopher it had on the
              page one of your little photos. Now it isn't and it boggles my mind.
              But I see what he was referreing to. Maybe Steve Garcia does, too.
              He is an engineer and long into ancient studies. Steve is a longtime
              personal friend of Christopher Dunn, Hatcher Childress and some of
              their associates while I am more an acquaintence through conferences.

              Do you fellows and members at this message board see the circle
              within the green reedy photo on Herb's new web page (within the
              paragraph "That day, chilled by the...")?

              Dunn had written..."This photograph has a round depression in it that
              looks remarkably precise. Can you find out more? Thanks, Chris"
              _________________

              Susan





              --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "herbswoods"
              <herbswoods@...> wrote:
              >
              > Susan,
              >
              > Thanks for the Bimini "road" websites. Of course I've heard of that
              > locale before, but have never studied it and I'll do so now.
              >
              > Notice how I fell into the same first response mentioned there to
              call
              > my discovery a "road." But after thinking about it, while it does
              > rather look like a road, I don't that's what it is or that it's not
              > natural. For now the webpage is done, but I might go back and change
              > it upon more study.
              >
              > Yes, I too have seen old structures and pilings around Superior Bay,
              > mouth of Amnicon River, and in the U.P. Never have visited Misery
              Bay,
              > but am familiar with the story behind the name. I have also seen old
              > bridge footings and pilings in area streams, but the site I
              discovered
              > doesn't look at all like that stuff. Unique and strikingly different
              > from anything else.
              >
              > Also, your colleague Chris asked remarked: "This photograph
              > has a round depression in it that looks remarkably precise."
              >
              > Which photo was he referring to? Not sure what "round depression"
              he's
              > talking about but I'm interested.
              >
              > Thanks!
              > HW
              >
              > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
              > <beldingenglish@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Herb, All,
              > >
              > > I am going to throw in a couple of web links here in response to
              your
              > > inquiry about possible links on ancient roads, ruins, etc. that
              > > relate to this fun new NW Wisconsin mystery.
              > >
              > > 1. I will let those interestedeted Google "Bimini Road" to check
              out
              > > photos...not very similar but a couple of photos I recall seeing
              a
              > > few years ago showed a more similar stretch of rectangular stones
              to
              > > Herb's photos. Rick "Oz" in our group interviewd William Donato
              on
              > > Oopa Loopa Cafe radio recently. I was on a Red Cross mission
              then
              > > and have not listened to the program from the archives. But
              Donato
              > > and Frank Joseph from Ancient American are both divers, longtime
              > > friends. I mentioned before Bill was at at least two Ancient
              American
              > > conference years ago out West; I saw some of his photos of Bimini
              > > then.
              > >
              > > But possibly more interesting, Herb and those of you who will be
              > > following his progress is the following article, listed under the
              > > title Ancient Archaeology, "BIMINI ROAD, ANALYSIS" from A
              SCIENTIFIC
              > > SELECTION OF WEB INFORMATION ON ANCIENT UNDERWATER RUINS AND
              OTHER
              > > REMARKABLE FINDS:
              > >
              > > http://www.altarcheologie.nl/index.html?
              > > underwater_ruins/bimini/bimini_analysis.htm
              > >
              > > Starts very interestingly: "Firstly one should not be confused by
              the
              > > word "road", this is only a convenient looking name given by the
              > > first discoverers. One should see the road initially just as what
              it
              > > is: a collection of stones. The question is: are the shape and
              > > arrangement of these stones such that they are artificial, made
              by
              > > man. The usual arguments for this are: regularity, straight lines
              > > (not circles, nature is pretty good at making circles), some
              kinds of
              > > symmetry (not all: natural crystals can also be symmetric, but
              they
              > > are usually not bigger than a decimeter), and the like."...
              > >
              > > I will let you read the rest. The article refers to an ocean rock
              > > structure but likely the same rules apply. (I feel as though I
              am in
              > > school again).
              > >
              > > 2. Possibly not relative, but something to consider since the
              article
              > > stems from an area in close approximation to Herb's tributary of
              Lake
              > > Superior re: a wooden crib from the 1870's that washed up on a
              Duluth
              > > shore. It mentions something about a "stone road on top". To me,
              all
              > > diagrams, photos of rocks don't show anything that even resembles
              the
              > > precision of Herb's underwater pattern of large rectangular
              stones.
              > >
              > > Article is called "Duluth Chapter Helps With Washed Up Crib":
              > >
              > > http://www.glsps.org/crib_project/duluth_crib_project.htm
              > >
              > > What I think it does tell us, though, is that 1800's structures
              as
              > > such were likely partially or fully constructed of logs or wood.
              > > Another example along Lake Superior where I often am the only one
              > > camping is at Misery Bay was formerly called "Carver's Bay or
              Carver
              > > Bay" after explorer Jonathan Carver who Herb discusses in his web
              > > sites. There is also an Amazon.com book called "Misery Bay and
              Other
              > > Stories from Michigan's Upper Peninsula" listed under Mysteries &
              > > Horror. I'll vouch for that part when camping alone late some
              > > nights...where the Misery River and Misery Bay come together. I
              > > generally don't reveal my favorite private camping and kayak
              spots,
              > > but this link and photos will show you how remote and beautiful
              it
              > > is. Just before the road to Misery Bay turns gravel, on the left
              in
              > > front of an old wooden church (turned town hall), along the road
              is
              > > an open spigot of pure, artesian water continuously spewing out
              for
              > > anyone in the world to help themselves to, and I usually take up
              > > thirty or fory empty gallon bottles:
              > >
              > > http://hunts-upguide.com/toivola_misery_bay.html
              > >
              > > Misery Bay is one of the places I have mentioned before where I
              sit
              > > around a fire late at night, occasionally beneath the spell of
              Aurora
              > > Borealis and let 'Mother Nature' try to teach me to think more
              like
              > > the ancients who might have also taken refuge there overnight. At
              the
              > > entrance to the parking lot is a sign that tells of its origins
              and
              > > of Jonathan Carver being there, shipwrecks, terrific storms,
              earlier
              > > site of Indian battles, etc., hence later named "Misery" Bay.
              Very
              > > old U. of Michigan archaeological maps show even earlier ancient
              > > Indian habitation, burial sites. The reason I mention this site
              is
              > > that some springtimes when the snow and ice recede, old historic
              > > wooden pilings or skids? peek through the sands in the bay where
              > > ships were once pulled up or docked. I have stubbed my feet on
              the
              > > old pilings sometimes, the water so cold things don't decay fast
              in
              > > Lake Superior. Sand has filled the bay over time, but still no
              > > evidence whatever of any stone structures there. Perhaps a good
              idea
              > > to put on snorkeling gear (maybe) to get a better look-see in the
              > > Misery River, Firesteel and Flintsteel Rivers south toward
              Ontonagon.
              > > Below that is where I spent my teens toward Little Girls Point,
              MI
              > > and over to Saxon Harbor, Ashland, Bayfield, then farther over to
              > > Superior (WI)-Duluth (MN).
              > >
              > > None of my old woodsman, hunting and fishing friends from the
              area
              > > have ever seen rocks aligned like that anywhere, or even that
              shape
              > > anywhere up there and I am sure will also be follow the progress
              of
              > > Herb and you who get into this inquiry...
              > >
              > > Susan
              > >
              > > . --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
              > > <beldingenglish@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Herb,
              > > >
              > > > Last night I forwarded your website to a friend, Christopher
              Dunn
              > > > whom I met through the World Explorer's Club in Kempton,
              Illinois
              > > > (David Hatcher Childress who many feel is Thor Heyerdahl's (Kon
              > > Tiki)
              > > > protege.) He and Dunn are close, longtime friends, as is
              engineer
              > > > Steve Garcia from Ancient Waterways Society, who also expressed
              > > > interest in your findings to me via email last evening.
              > > >
              > > > Dunn is a member of the impressive Board of Directors for the
              Great
              > > > Pyramid of Giza Research Association
              (http://www.gizapyramid.com/)
              > > and
              > > > has published a best-sellling book on the Great Pyramid, The
              Giza
              > > > Power Plant-Technologies of Ancient Egypt". Of numerous
              magazine
              > > > articles, one you might be particularly interested in
              is "Advanced
              > > > Machining in Ancient Egypt".
              > > >
              > > > Christopher also drove over from his home in Danville, Illinois
              to
              > > > the Ohio AAAPF/Thor/Midwest Epigraphic Society Conference last
              > > > October as one of our speakers. If you or other Ancient
              Waterways
              > > > Society members want to read more about Dunn, his web site is:
              > > >
              > > > http://www.gizapyramid.com/BIO-Dunn.htm
              > > >
              > > > I and many with whom I am affiliated have found Dunn to carry
              the
              > > > utmost integrity, both personally and professionally.
              > > >
              > > > Anyway, I knew he would be interested in Herb's photographs and
              web
              > > > site, so sent a note to him last night. This morning received
              the
              > > > following reply w/inclusion of one of the green weedy photos.
              See
              > > if
              > > > any of you can spot what he is referring to; I'd not noticed
              it,
              > > but
              > > > can see the circle below the weeds. Herb, can you find that
              exact
              > > > site again in your excursion back there next spring???
              > > >
              > > > Susan
              > > >
              > > > -----Original Message-----
              > > > From: Chris Dunn <cdunn1546@>
              > > > To: SuzEnglish@
              > > > Sent: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 12:13 pm
              > > > Subject: RE: Check out ancient_waterways_society : Message:
              > > > Underwater "road" or "structur
              > > >
              > > > Hi Susan,
              > > >
              > > > Thanks for the links, they are very interesting. This
              photograph
              > > has
              > > > a round depression in it that looks remarkably precise. Can you
              > > find
              > > > out more?
              > > >
              > > > Thanks,
              > > >
              > > > Chris
              > > >
              > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
              > > > From: SuzEnglish@ [mailto:SuzEnglish@]
              > > > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 7:42 AM
              > > > To: CDunn1546@
              > > > Subject: Check out ancient_waterways_society : Message:
              > > > Underwater "road" or "structur
              > > >
              > > > Chris,
              > > >
              > > > Below is a web site w/underwater photos from one of our Ancient
              > > > Waterways Society members (Herb Wagner) sent yesterday. He has
              > > > discovered what has the appearance of a road in an extremely
              remote
              > > > are of NW Wisconsin, near a Lake Superior to Mississippi River
              > > > tributary. He is leaving it up to further investigation
              whether or
              > > > not the site is natural or man-made. Many of us who lived (and
              > > trout
              > > > fished) in the area for decades has ever seen or heard about
              > > anything
              > > > like that up there before. The only other photos that seem to
              > > > resemble it (to me) are the "Bimini Road" in the Bahamas,
              though on
              > > a
              > > > much larger scale of stone 'block'.
              > > >
              > > > He has a number of excellent web sites you might enjoy, esp. if
              you
              > > > and your family plan a trip up into that area (not far from
              > > Bayfield
              > > > and the Apostle Islands, then westward along Lake Superior into
              the
              > > > Porcupine Mts. and Keweenaw County Copper Country. Herb's
              > > > Wisconsin's Ancient Copper Mines web site has many of us
              including
              > > > the NW region of Wisconsin as also a significant part of
              ancient
              > > > copper trade, and might prove likely to have been a significant
              > > > entrance to a direct trade route to the Mississippi.
              > > >
              > > > If you see anything that resembles the appearance of something
              man-
              > > > made, please let the group or Herb Wagner know. Or anyone who
              > > knows
              > > > how one determines dating and whether or not stone structures
              as
              > > such
              > > > are natural or man-made.
              > > >
              > > > Steve Garcia is also one of the 20 members of our group, as is
              > > > engineer Vince Barrows who spoke on Cahokia at the Ohio
              conference
              > > > and has been doing a lot of preservation of Monks Mound and
              > > advocacy
              > > > there.
              > > >
              > > > I know you all are busy with careers and your own research,
              books,
              > > > family etc.
              > > >
              > > > Herb's photos and web sites might intrigue you.
              > > >
              > > > Thanks again,
              > > > Susan
              > > >
              > > > ________________
              > > > Click here: ancient_waterways_society : Message:
              Underwater "road"
              > > > or "structure"?
              > > >
              > > > "Group,
              > > > Months ago I posted about an underwater discovery I made last
              > > summer
              > > > in Northern Wisconsin of a possible underwater road. I promised
              > > > photos and finally found time to whip up a webpage containing a
              few
              > > > images of this unusual feature. Please visit the following link
              and
              > > > tell me what you think. It's still in somewhat rough form, but
              I
              > > > would like your opinion on the following:
              > > >
              > > > Right now I'm calling it a "road" or "causeway." But upon
              > > > consideration I really don't know what it is, so maybe I should
              > > > change it to "possible structure of some kind" that looks like
              an
              > > > ancient road, although it may well have a natural explanation
              as I
              > > > also state.
              > > >
              > > > Thanks!
              > > > [Herb]
              > > >
              > > > http://www.atthecreation.com/ROAD/UNDERWATER.RD.html
              > > >
              > > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "herbswoods"
              > > > <herbswoods@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Susan and others:
              > > >
              > > > I've changed the wording in the webpage from "road"
              to "structure"
              > > > because really: What is it?
              > > >
              > > > I don't know the answer; perhaps other members can give their
              > > > opinions and ideas.
              > > >
              > > > Upon looking at the photos some more, it occurs to me that if
              it is
              > > > artificial in origin, it could be the TOP of a much larger and
              > > mostly
              > > > buried structure. That is almost too extreme a position to
              take,
              > > but
              > > > the possibility cannot be ignored.
              > > >
              > > > What I need to find are photos of actual human-built ruins or
              > > ancient
              > > > roads that show similar "construction" to this site (in quotes
              > > > because, again, it might well be natural in origin and probably
              is.)
              > > >
              > > > The overall size of the (exposed) portion of the site was
              relatively
              > > > small, but I did not measure it. Trying to recall, I'd guess it
              was
              > > > maybe 15-20 feet wide and maybe 30-50 feet long. Maybe larger.
              The
              > > > stones were of various sizes, some large enough to be
              impossible for
              > > > one man to move them, or even two men to move them, but that's
              just
              > > > rough guesswork.
              > > >
              > > > I did not see anything else nearby: no mounds, pyramids, etc.,
              but
              > > > like I wrote, the surrounding area was dense vegetation and I
              did
              > > not
              > > > explore it at all. My entire focus was on the "structure"
              itself.
              > > Nor
              > > > did I explore the surrounding upland areas.
              > > >
              > > > If it's an artificial structure, somebody put a LOT of effort
              into
              > > > building it and without any sign of modern tools or materials.
              One
              > > > person could NOT have built it. If artificial, the purpose or
              intent
              > > > of the site remains a puzzle and a mystery.
              > > >
              > > > H.W.
              > > >
              > > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
              > > > <beldingenglish@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Herb,
              > > >
              > > > A very well-written web site, "Discovery of an Underwater
              > > Prehistoric
              > > > Road in Northwest Wisconsin?", and the photographs absolutely
              > > knocked
              > > > my socks off.
              > > >
              > > > I moved to Hurley, WI/Ironwood, MI during the late 50's, later
              > > lived
              > > > a short time in Superior, WI. I fished brushy trout streams and
              > > > larger Lake Superior tributaries but never saw anything
              remotely
              > > > resembling what is shown in your photographs.
              > > >
              > > > Except when helping with two Ancient American Magazine
              conferences
              > > > out West late 80's, early 90's when viewing photographs that
              divers
              > > > Dr. William Donato (Washington State)and Frank Joseph had
              depicting
              > > > the underwater "Bimini Road" near the Bahamas. One or two of
              your
              > > > photos reminded me of the precisely fitted rectangular blocks,
              > > though
              > > > yours seem smaller in size.
              > > >
              > > > Herb, about how wide and long were some of the paved surfaces
              you
              > > > uncovered and did any branch off or come to a dead end? Did
              you
              > > see
              > > > anything that resembled burial sites, stone or earthen mounds,
              rock
              > > > piles, stone walls, etc.? Are any of the structures out on
              higher
              > > > ground where logging occurred?
              > > >
              > > > The reason I ask was, that a few years ago a friend was
              surveying
              > > in
              > > > a very remote location northeast of where you are talking about
              and
              > > > discovered (has been ever since trying to what remains of a
              number
              > > of
              > > > old, possibly ancient stone walls on wilderness land off the
              beaten
              > > > path of old logging roads. Every wall also had large,
              surrounding
              > > > stone piles or mounds nearby.
              > > >
              > > > One stone wall, half-covered with earth, grass, overgrown brush
              > > leads
              > > > eerily down and well into a fairly deep lake. I never looked to
              see
              > > > if there was anything like a road under the thick overgrowth
              and
              > > > swampy shoreline. The sites I have investigated with him since
              lie
              > > > within a mile of present day Lake Superior shores. I
              practically
              > > had
              > > > to take a blood oath of secrecy until protection can be given
              to
              > > the
              > > > sites, undoubtedly could never find the areas again. I am
              urging
              > > that
              > > > photographs and carbon-dating be done soon so data and reports
              can
              > > be
              > > > put together and the knowledge put to public use.
              > > >
              > > > It seems wise at this time you are keeping the whereabouts of
              the
              > > > location quiet and I applaud your reverent intent to maintain
              the
              > > > integrity of landscape and waterways, as you portray and
              describe
              > > so
              > > > beautifully on your web sites. Little true wilderness remains
              any
              > > > more. Many of us know of even well-intended diffusionist
              > > researchers
              > > > who have wrought irreversible damage on the landscape searching
              for
              > > > and/or removing artifacts for public and private museums and
              > > displays.
              > > >
              > > > Web sites such as this help many of us continue considering
              > > > possibilites by sharing and putting together clues to this
              larger
              > > > landscape of human habitation, possibly extending our history
              of
              > > > these areas far back not only into early historic but very
              ancient
              > > > past. I hope others enjoy Herb's web sites as much as I and
              perhaps
              > > > will speculate about the photos. Please keep us posted on this
              > > > exploration.
              > > > _________________
              > > >
              > > > I miss hearing recent updates from Georgian member Jamie Clark
              re:
              > > > the hundreds of seemingly old/ancient stone bird heads
              discovered a
              > > > year or two in caves and sinkholes on private property. He
              weemed
              > > to
              > > > be doing an excellent job fielding questions for the landowner
              and
              > > > maintaining anonymity of the site location.
              > > >
              > > > Thanks for keeping us informed, Herb.
              > > >
              > > > Susan English
              > > >
              > > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "herbswoods"
              > > > <herbswoods@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Group:
              > > >
              > > > Months ago I posted about an underwater discovery I made last
              summer
              > > > in Northern Wisconsin of a possible underwater road. I promised
              > > > photos and finally found time to whip up a webpage containing a
              few
              > > > images of this unusual feature. Please visit the following link
              and
              > > > tell me what you think. It's still in somewhat rough form, but
              I
              > > > would like your opinion on the following:
              > > >
              > > > Right now I'm calling it a "road" or "causeway." But upon
              > > > consideration I really don't know what it is, so maybe I should
              > > > change it to "possible structure of some kind" that looks like
              an
              > > > ancient road, although it may well have a natural explanation
              as I
              > > > also state.
              > > >
              > > > Thanks!
              > > >
              > > > http://www.atthecreation.com/ROAD/UNDERWATER.RD.html
              > > >
              > >
              >
            • herbswoods
              Steve: Thanks for the thoughtful response. I agree with everything you said and all those things need to be done. Photos #4 & 5 are pretty amazing, esp. #5
              Message 6 of 13 , Jan 15, 2008
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                Steve:

                Thanks for the thoughtful response. I agree with everything you said
                and all those things need to be done. Photos #4 & 5 are pretty
                amazing, esp. #5 which shows very precise alignment.

                You asked if the stucture has a crown to it From the photo it does
                look like it, but in memory it seems that the structure was level. I
                could be wrong, however, as I was not there very long. I didn't even
                try to dislodge or move a block or otherwise test anything. It just
                didn't occur to me at the time to test anything. All I wanted was to
                obtain photographs and happily I was able to do.

                It's probably of natural origin, but it's fun to speculate as the
                region is a legend-haunted one.

                HW


                --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "bigalemc2"
                <puppet@...> wrote:
                >
                > Herb -
                >
                > Great photos!
                >
                > Well, you certainly have turned up something unusual.
                >
                > It took me a while to look at these, finally, but I did and am glad to
                > see them.
                >
                > I can hardly add anything to your speculations on them. You've covered
                > most of the possibilities.
                >
                > My POV on the photos is that you have good reason to think they are
                > man-made. They look more man-made than the Bimini road, to me. The
                > first photo was narrow enough that I thought it was a wash between
                > man-made and natural, but in the latter ones the weight of the argument
                > - IMHO - pushed over to the man-made end of the spectrum.
                >
                > Personally, what I like to do is to argue that they are what I DON'T
                > want them to be, and see if that holds water - without getting bozo with
                > speculation and diversion from Occam's Razor, which says that the
                > simpler explanation that covers all the bases is probably the correct
                > one. More than a few little questions come to mind, so I will lay out
                > what those are, for what it is worth.
                >
                > Numbering the photos from top to bottom #1 through #5:
                >
                > #1 questions and notes:
                >
                > 1. What kind of stone is it?
                > 2. Is there any evidence that the stone(s) was not laid there
                > naturally?
                > 3. Is the kind of stone present known to crack naturally in straight
                > lines?
                > 4. Does this kind of stone also crack naturally in such a
                > near-rectilinear fashion? Some may, most would not seem to.
                > 5. This photo does not show right angles on all the cracks.
                > 6. How uniformly wide are the cracks?
                >
                > 7. If they were naturally formed, is there evidence that all the
                > cracks might have been formed naturally at the same time, under the same
                > forces or influences?
                >
                > 8. How extensive is the entire stone area?
                > 9. Does the area extend under the aquatic vegetation upstream or
                > down?
                > 10. Does the area extend under the river bank?
                >
                > 11. Are the edges of the entire stone area natural-looking?
                > 12. How level is the top surface?
                > 13. How deep are the stones set into the river bottom?
                > 14. Is there more than one layer? (This mirrors your idea that they
                > may be the roof of a structure.)
                >
                > 15. What underlies the stone area?
                >
                > 16. Does the alignment follow along the bottom of the river bed?
                > Across it? At an angle?
                > Some of these are trite questions, but these and more need to be asked
                > to determine if the formation is natural.
                >
                > Photo #2 and #3: I do not see any stone in those.
                >
                > Photo #4 - all the same questions and comments apply as to photo #1,
                > plus:
                >
                > 1. This one raised my eyebrows. A LOT.
                > 2. This pattern would be difficult to argue as natural
                > 3. The right angles are quite evident
                > 4. The alignment of the cross joints is amazing if naturally formed
                > 5. The two narrower stones have nearly aligned cracks on both sides,
                > which make it hard to argue for natural formation
                > 6. The crack between the larger stone and the one 'above' it seems
                > not to have parallel sides, which would tend to argue it is naturally
                > formed
                > 7. The top surface does seem to be essentially flat, if not level
                > Photo #5 - all the same questions and comments apply as to photo #1 and
                > #4, plus:
                >
                > 1. The pattern is definitely rectilinear
                > 2. This seems to suggest a long, linear pattern to the area, similar
                > to a road or a paved ford
                > 3. Are the long cracks parallel? If so, to what degree?
                > 4. The 'roadway' seems to be crowned. Is that an illusion or true?
                > 5. One stone in the top of the photo does not match up
                crack-to-crack
                > with those around it, in the simplest rectilinear pattern. The mating
                > one on the right is actually two stones. Does this occur elsewhere?
                > (This seems to suggest that natural forces did not crack the two on the
                > right, since the natural force would also have been trying to crack the
                > single one, too.)
                >
                > Photos #4 and #5 are pretty amazing.
                >
                > Old maps would seem to be the order of the day, to see if any show any
                > road here known to early settlers or to known industries in the area.
                >
                > You have to show that these are not known to anyone at any earlier time.
                > I suggest reading this book: The Island of Seven Cities: Where the
                > Chinese Settled When They Discovered America
                >
                <http://www.amazon.com/Island-Seven-Cities-Chinese-Discovered/dp/0312362\
                > 056/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200295531&sr=8-1> . The
                > author went through the same kind of proving out - to himself - that
                > your site will pretty much need to do. He assumed that the site he'd
                > found was known to earlier settlers, then exhausted every one of those
                > possibilities. What was left was not what he had ever considered
                > possible, but it turned out to be the probable answer.
                >
                > I do not profess to have covered all the possible questions, nor to have
                > any great insight into anything about this. If any of the above helps
                > you in your thinking, Herb, go for it.
                >
                > Steve Garcia
                >
              • Susan
                Steve, Excellent letter you wrote to Herb...and you are right that Herb s photos look more man-made that the Bimini Road. Herb, I d probably not even spend
                Message 7 of 13 , Jan 15, 2008
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                  Steve,

                  Excellent letter you wrote to Herb...and you are right that Herb's
                  photos look more man-made that the Bimini Road. Herb, I'd probably
                  not even spend much time looking at Bimini. That was the only
                  underwater I'd seen I felt was similar.

                  The little archeological web site I sent, and even moreso, Steve's
                  astute ideas and insights in his post below have provided a finer
                  knowledge base of things to look for than hours of web sites, old
                  literature I glanced at. Likely divers David Hatcher-Childress, Frank
                  Joseph, and Wayne have sites more similar to those in your photo.I
                  just sent them your links, too. All of these fellows are friends yet
                  also complimentary magazine competitors (Ancient American and
                  Adventures Unlimited), and I hope will watch the site and do a bit of
                  research along with those here who are intriqued, and especially be
                  following Herb's progress, come Spring.

                  Susan

                  --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "bigalemc2"
                  <puppet@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Herb -
                  >
                  > Great photos!
                  >
                  > Well, you certainly have turned up something unusual.
                  >
                  > It took me a while to look at these, finally, but I did and am glad
                  to
                  > see them.
                  >
                  > I can hardly add anything to your speculations on them. You've
                  covered
                  > most of the possibilities.
                  >
                  > My POV on the photos is that you have good reason to think they are
                  > man-made. They look more man-made than the Bimini road, to me. The
                  > first photo was narrow enough that I thought it was a wash between
                  > man-made and natural, but in the latter ones the weight of the
                  argument
                  > - IMHO - pushed over to the man-made end of the spectrum.
                  >
                  > Personally, what I like to do is to argue that they are what I DON'T
                  > want them to be, and see if that holds water - without getting bozo
                  with
                  > speculation and diversion from Occam's Razor, which says that the
                  > simpler explanation that covers all the bases is probably the
                  correct
                  > one. More than a few little questions come to mind, so I will lay
                  out
                  > what those are, for what it is worth.
                  >
                  > Numbering the photos from top to bottom #1 through #5:
                  >
                  > #1 questions and notes:
                  >
                  > 1. What kind of stone is it?
                  > 2. Is there any evidence that the stone(s) was not laid there
                  > naturally?
                  > 3. Is the kind of stone present known to crack naturally in
                  straight
                  > lines?
                  > 4. Does this kind of stone also crack naturally in such a
                  > near-rectilinear fashion? Some may, most would not seem to.
                  > 5. This photo does not show right angles on all the cracks.
                  > 6. How uniformly wide are the cracks?
                  >
                  > 7. If they were naturally formed, is there evidence that all the
                  > cracks might have been formed naturally at the same time, under the
                  same
                  > forces or influences?
                  >
                  > 8. How extensive is the entire stone area?
                  > 9. Does the area extend under the aquatic vegetation upstream or
                  > down?
                  > 10. Does the area extend under the river bank?
                  >
                  > 11. Are the edges of the entire stone area natural-looking?
                  > 12. How level is the top surface?
                  > 13. How deep are the stones set into the river bottom?
                  > 14. Is there more than one layer? (This mirrors your idea that
                  they
                  > may be the roof of a structure.)
                  >
                  > 15. What underlies the stone area?
                  >
                  > 16. Does the alignment follow along the bottom of the river bed?
                  > Across it? At an angle?
                  > Some of these are trite questions, but these and more need to be
                  asked
                  > to determine if the formation is natural.
                  >
                  > Photo #2 and #3: I do not see any stone in those.
                  >
                  > Photo #4 - all the same questions and comments apply as to photo #1,
                  > plus:
                  >
                  > 1. This one raised my eyebrows. A LOT.
                  > 2. This pattern would be difficult to argue as natural
                  > 3. The right angles are quite evident
                  > 4. The alignment of the cross joints is amazing if naturally
                  formed
                  > 5. The two narrower stones have nearly aligned cracks on both
                  sides,
                  > which make it hard to argue for natural formation
                  > 6. The crack between the larger stone and the one 'above' it
                  seems
                  > not to have parallel sides, which would tend to argue it is
                  naturally
                  > formed
                  > 7. The top surface does seem to be essentially flat, if not
                  level
                  > Photo #5 - all the same questions and comments apply as to photo #1
                  and
                  > #4, plus:
                  >
                  > 1. The pattern is definitely rectilinear
                  > 2. This seems to suggest a long, linear pattern to the area,
                  similar
                  > to a road or a paved ford
                  > 3. Are the long cracks parallel? If so, to what degree?
                  > 4. The 'roadway' seems to be crowned. Is that an illusion or
                  true?
                  > 5. One stone in the top of the photo does not match up crack-to-
                  crack
                  > with those around it, in the simplest rectilinear pattern. The
                  mating
                  > one on the right is actually two stones. Does this occur
                  elsewhere?
                  > (This seems to suggest that natural forces did not crack the two on
                  the
                  > right, since the natural force would also have been trying to crack
                  the
                  > single one, too.)
                  >
                  > Photos #4 and #5 are pretty amazing.
                  >
                  > Old maps would seem to be the order of the day, to see if any show
                  any
                  > road here known to early settlers or to known industries in the
                  area.
                  >
                  > You have to show that these are not known to anyone at any earlier
                  time.
                  > I suggest reading this book: The Island of Seven Cities: Where the
                  > Chinese Settled When They Discovered America
                  > <http://www.amazon.com/Island-Seven-Cities-Chinese-
                  Discovered/dp/0312362\
                  > 056/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200295531&sr=8-1> . The
                  > author went through the same kind of proving out - to himself - that
                  > your site will pretty much need to do. He assumed that the site
                  he'd
                  > found was known to earlier settlers, then exhausted every one of
                  those
                  > possibilities. What was left was not what he had ever considered
                  > possible, but it turned out to be the probable answer.
                  >
                  > I do not profess to have covered all the possible questions, nor to
                  have
                  > any great insight into anything about this. If any of the above
                  helps
                  > you in your thinking, Herb, go for it.
                  >
                  > Steve Garcia
                  >
                • Stephen Garcia
                  Susan - I noted the comment by Chris and that particular photo, too, but - maybe it is my old fogy eyes - all I see is a long leaf curled up. I saw the round
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jan 15, 2008
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                    Susan -

                    I noted the comment by Chris and that particular photo, too, but - maybe it is my old fogy eyes - all I see is a long leaf curled up.  I saw the round thing and wanted to see something there, but that is all I see.  Is it actually something IN the stone?  Or is it an optical illusion?

                    I mean, it seems essentially the same color as the undersides of the other leaves in the photo.

                    At the same time, I DID wonder why Herb took the picture.  If not for that, then what for?  My only guess was to show the tangle he had to swim through.

                    But if it is a really something in the stone, that is, of course, a different story.

                    ***
                    Okay:  I saved the  image to my hard drive, then opened it in a graphics program and zoomed in on that 'circle'.  It appears to me to be a loop in a continuation - the end - of the long, slender leaf that stretches diagonally across the image in a slightly sinuous pattern from the lower left.  I can even follow the leaf between the two - the sinuous part and the loop at the end.

                    There even seems to be another leaf below it.

                    Here is the enlargement of that area:




                    Somebody tell me I am wrong...

                    Herb?  Did you actually see something there?  Was this something on the photo when you saw it later?

                    Steve Garcia



                    Susan wrote:

                    Herb, Steve, and All,

                    When I first opened the email reply from Christopher it had on the
                    page one of your little photos. Now it isn't and it boggles my mind.
                    But I see what he was referreing to. Maybe Steve Garcia does, too.
                    He is an engineer and long into ancient studies. Steve is a longtime
                    personal friend of Christopher Dunn, Hatcher Childress and some of
                    their associates while I am more an acquaintence through conferences.

                    Do you fellows and members at this message board see the circle
                    within the green reedy photo on Herb's new web page (within the
                    paragraph "That day, chilled by the...")?

                    Dunn had written..."This photograph has a round depression in it that
                    looks remarkably precise. Can you find out more? Thanks, Chris"
                    __





                  • bigalemc2
                    Herb - Yeah, you got an enigma on your hands, Dude. Good find! Yes, it might be natural, but I am leaning to it being something man made from a relatively
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jan 15, 2008
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                      Herb -

                      Yeah, you got an enigma on your hands, Dude. Good find!

                      Yes, it might be natural, but I am leaning to it being something man
                      made from a relatively recent time period. To me, that is the Occam's
                      razor on this. It makes what the images show make sense in the simplest
                      way. Oh, it would be lovely if it is something from the copper age,
                      but. . .

                      From the images, it would certainly seem to be man made, rather than
                      naturally occurring. Those cracks being at 90 degrees (mostly) is one
                      point in favor of man made. Nature tends to not do things in 90-degree
                      patterns - though one can't rule it out.

                      That non-continuous crack in that one spot seem to rule out nature; if
                      there were stresses in the stone that caused it to crack along some
                      crystalline fault (like a diamond would do), I would expect the crack to
                      extend across the entirety, IMHO. I can speculate on ways that the
                      break wouldn't be fully across the area, but they have problems in
                      themselves, so I threw them out of the argument.

                      I think it best to find old records, preferably maps. If man made, this
                      will show up there. No one builds without leaving some record. Roads
                      of whatever kind are labor intensive, so no one would go to that trouble
                      and then not put it on a map.

                      I'd recommend also to see how long it extends, as soon as possible. If
                      it is a road, there will be much more of it. If it is a stone bottom
                      put in for a post-Columbian ford, then there should be some remnants of
                      a real road on both sides of the river. It may not appear obvious right
                      near the bank, due to erosion, occasional flooding, etc., so looking
                      many feet away from the banks might give the best results.

                      All this is speculation and - like your thoughts on the web page - can
                      get you going in all kinds of directions. A few more facts can cut that
                      all way down. The best way to narrow down the possibilities is to go
                      get more facts. Take more photos, make some measurements, search under
                      and around the vegetation, blah, blah, blah.

                      Time to do some detective work...

                      Steve
                      --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "herbswoods"
                      <herbswoods@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Steve:
                      >
                      > Thanks for the thoughtful response. I agree with everything you said
                      > and all those things need to be done. Photos #4 & 5 are pretty
                      > amazing, esp. #5 which shows very precise alignment.
                      >
                      > You asked if the stucture has a crown to it From the photo it does
                      > look like it, but in memory it seems that the structure was level. I
                      > could be wrong, however, as I was not there very long. I didn't even
                      > try to dislodge or move a block or otherwise test anything. It just
                      > didn't occur to me at the time to test anything. All I wanted was to
                      > obtain photographs and happily I was able to do.
                      >
                      > It's probably of natural origin, but it's fun to speculate as the
                      > region is a legend-haunted one.
                      >
                      > HW
                    • Susan
                      Steve Garcia., Herb, and All I see from the enlargement in your (Steve G. s) email what you are referring to and perhaps send the enlargement to Herb s
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jan 15, 2008
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                        Steve Garcia., Herb, and All

                        I see from the enlargement in your (Steve G.'s) email what you are
                        referring to and perhaps send the enlargement to Herb's emailbox, too.
                        With the imprint of the green into the circle on the unenlarged photo
                        on Herb's web site, I am wondering if Herb might have laid a circular
                        tripod or other poles into silt/mud into the river bottom at that
                        spot to cause the imbedded circular 'ring' since Herb has the photos
                        and was there. Herb, is there a lot of silt in parts of the river,
                        and what do you think? I was snorkeling at Rock Lake near Madison
                        years ago after a sweat lodge by a bunch of New Agers after reading
                        Frank Jospeh's Pyramids of Rock Lake book. Deep, deep silt, and he
                        speaks of the difficulty of investigating rock or any other
                        structures beneath deep, still water such as lakes, esp. in
                        agricultural or urban areas.

                        Sorry I am posting so much but at a dormant time away
                        from 'fieldwork' and most of us are up at least to our knees in snow,
                        isn't this armchair line of inquiry interesting? Remember that some
                        of this group's data can be applied to other, future leads and
                        avenues of investigation.

                        Welcome new member Richard from MA (Maine or Massechucetts?)

                        Susan

                        --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Garcia
                        <puppet@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Susan -
                        >
                        > I noted the comment by Chris and that particular photo, too, but -
                        maybe
                        > it is my old fogy eyes - all I see is a long leaf curled up. I saw
                        the
                        > round thing and wanted to see something there, but that is all I
                        see.
                        > Is it actually something IN the stone? Or is it an optical
                        illusion?
                        >
                        > I mean, it seems essentially the same color as the undersides of
                        the
                        > other leaves in the photo.
                        >
                        > At the same time, I DID wonder why Herb took the picture. If not
                        for
                        > that, then what for? My only guess was to show the tangle he had
                        to
                        > swim through.
                        >
                        > But if it is a really something in the stone, that is, of course, a
                        > different story.
                        >
                        > ***
                        > Okay: I saved the image to my hard drive, then opened it in a
                        graphics
                        > program and zoomed in on that 'circle'. It appears to me to be a
                        loop
                        > in a continuation - the end - of the long, slender leaf that
                        stretches
                        > diagonally across the image in a slightly sinuous pattern from the
                        lower
                        > left. I can even follow the leaf between the two - the sinuous
                        part and
                        > the loop at the end.
                        >
                        > There even seems to be another leaf below it.
                        >
                        > Here is the enlargement of that area:
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Somebody tell me I am wrong...
                        >
                        > Herb? Did you actually see something there? Was this something on
                        the
                        > photo when you saw it later?
                        >
                        > Steve Garcia
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Susan wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Herb, Steve, and All,
                        > >
                        > > When I first opened the email reply from Christopher it had on the
                        > > page one of your little photos. Now it isn't and it boggles my
                        mind.
                        > > But I see what he was referreing to. Maybe Steve Garcia does, too.
                        > > He is an engineer and long into ancient studies. Steve is a
                        longtime
                        > > personal friend of Christopher Dunn, Hatcher Childress and some of
                        > > their associates while I am more an acquaintence through
                        conferences.
                        > >
                        > > Do you fellows and members at this message board see the circle
                        > > within the green reedy photo on Herb's new web page (within the
                        > > paragraph "That day, chilled by the...")?
                        > >
                        > > Dunn had written..."This photograph has a round depression in it
                        that
                        > > looks remarkably precise. Can you find out more? Thanks, Chris"
                        > > __
                        > >
                        >
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