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Re: Underwater "structure" in NW Wis?

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  • herbswoods
    Susan and others: I ve changed the wording in the webpage from road to structure because really: What is it? I don t know the answer; perhaps other members
    Message 1 of 13 , Jan 13, 2008
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      Susan and others:

      I've changed the wording in the webpage from "road" to "structure"
      because really: What is it?

      I don't know the answer; perhaps other members can give their opinions
      and ideas.

      Upon looking at the photos some more, it occurs to me that if it is
      artificial in origin, it could be the TOP of a much larger and mostly
      buried structure. That is almost too extreme a position to take, but
      the possibility cannot be ignored.

      What I need to find are photos of actual human-built ruins or ancient
      roads that show similar "construction" to this site (in quotes
      because, again, it might well be natural in origin and probably is.)

      The overall size of the (exposed) portion of the site was relatively
      small, but I did not measure it. Trying to recall, I'd guess it was
      maybe 15-20 feet wide and maybe 30-50 feet long. Maybe larger. The
      stones were of various sizes, some large enough to be impossible for
      one man to move them, or even two men to move them, but that's just
      rough guesswork.

      I did not see anything else nearby: no mounds, pyramids, etc., but
      like I wrote, the surrounding area was dense vegetation and I did not
      explore it at all. My entire focus was on the "structure" itself. Nor
      did I explore the surrounding upland areas.

      If it's an artificial structure, somebody put a LOT of effort into
      building it and without any sign of modern tools or materials. One
      person could NOT have built it. If artificial, the purpose or intent
      of the site remains a puzzle and a mystery.

      H.W.



      --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
      <beldingenglish@...> wrote:
      >
      > Herb,
      >
      > A very well-written web site, "Discovery of an Underwater Prehistoric
      > Road in Northwest Wisconsin?", and the photographs absolutely knocked
      > my socks off.
      >
      > I moved to Hurley, WI/Ironwood, MI during the late 50's, later lived
      > a short time in Superior, WI. I fished brushy trout streams and
      > larger Lake Superior tributaries but never saw anything remotely
      > resembling what is shown in your photographs.
      >
      > Except when helping with two Ancient American Magazine conferences
      > out West late 80's, early 90's when viewing photographs that divers
      > Dr. William Donato (Washington State)and Frank Joseph had depicting
      > the underwater "Bimini Road" near the Bahamas. One or two of your
      > photos reminded me of the precisely fitted rectangular blocks, though
      > yours seem smaller in size.
      >
      > Herb, about how wide and long were some of the paved surfaces you
      > uncovered and did any branch off or come to a dead end? Did you see
      > anything that resembled burial sites, stone or earthen mounds, rock
      > piles, stone walls, etc.? Are any of the structures out on higher
      > ground where logging occurred?
      >
      > The reason I ask was, that a few years ago a friend was surveying in
      > a very remote location northeast of where you are talking about and
      > discovered (has been ever since trying to what remains of a number of
      > old, possibly ancient stone walls on wilderness land off the beaten
      > path of old logging roads. Every wall also had large, surrounding
      > stone piles or mounds nearby.
      >
      > One stone wall, half-covered with earth, grass, overgrown brush leads
      > eerily down and well into a fairly deep lake. I never looked to see
      > if there was anything like a road under the thick overgrowth and
      > swampy shoreline. The sites I have investigated with him since lie
      > within a mile of present day Lake Superior shores. I practically had
      > to take a blood oath of secrecy until protection can be given to the
      > sites, undoubtedly could never find the areas again. I am urging that
      > photographs and carbon-dating be done soon so data and reports can be
      > put together and the knowledge put to public use.
      >
      > It seems wise at this time you are keeping the whereabouts of the
      > location quiet and I applaud your reverent intent to maintain the
      > integrity of landscape and waterways, as you portray and describe so
      > beautifully on your web sites. Little true wilderness remains any
      > more. Many of us know of even well-intended diffusionist researchers
      > who have wrought irreversible damage on the landscape searching for
      > and/or removing artifacts for public and private museums and displays.
      >
      > Web sites such as this help many of us continue considering
      > possibilites by sharing and putting together clues to this larger
      > landscape of human habitation, possibly extending our history of
      > these areas far back not only into early historic but very ancient
      > past. I hope others enjoy Herb's web sites as much as I and perhaps
      > will speculate about the photos. Please keep us posted on this
      > exploration.
      > _________________
      >
      > I miss hearing recent updates from Georgian member Jamie Clark re:
      > the hundreds of seemingly old/ancient stone bird heads discovered a
      > year or two in caves and sinkholes on private property. He weemed to
      > be doing an excellent job fielding questions for the landowner and
      > maintaining anonymity of the site location.
      >
      > Thanks for keeping us informed, Herb.
      >
      > Susan English
      >
      > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "herbswoods"
      > <herbswoods@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Group:
      > >
      > > Months ago I posted about an underwater discovery I made last summer
      > > in Northern Wisconsin of a possible underwater road. I promised
      > photos
      > > and finally found time to whip up a webpage containing a few images
      > of
      > > this unusual feature. Please visit the following link and tell me
      > what
      > > you think. It's still in somewhat rough form, but I would like your
      > > opinion on the following:
      > >
      > > Right now I'm calling it a "road" or "causeway." But upon
      > > consideration I really don't know what it is, so maybe I should
      > change
      > > it to "possible structure of some kind" that looks like an ancient
      > > road, although it may well have a natural explanation as I also
      > state.
      > >
      > > Thanks!
      > >
      > > http://www.atthecreation.com/ROAD/UNDERWATER.RD.html
      > >
      >
    • Susan
      Herb, Last night I forwarded your website to a friend, Christopher Dunn whom I met through the World Explorer s Club in Kempton, Illinois (David Hatcher
      Message 2 of 13 , Jan 13, 2008
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        Herb,

        Last night I forwarded your website to a friend, Christopher Dunn
        whom I met through the World Explorer's Club in Kempton, Illinois
        (David Hatcher Childress who many feel is Thor Heyerdahl's (Kon Tiki)
        protege.) He and Dunn are close, longtime friends, as is engineer
        Steve Garcia from Ancient Waterways Society, who also expressed
        interest in your findings to me via email last evening.

        Dunn is a member of the impressive Board of Directors for the Great
        Pyramid of Giza Research Association (http://www.gizapyramid.com/)and
        has published a best-sellling book on the Great Pyramid, The Giza
        Power Plant-Technologies of Ancient Egypt". Of numerous magazine
        articles, one you might be particularly interested in is "Advanced
        Machining in Ancient Egypt".

        Christopher also drove over from his home in Danville, Illinois to
        the Ohio AAAPF/Thor/Midwest Epigraphic Society Conference last
        October as one of our speakers. If you or other Ancient Waterways
        Society members want to read more about Dunn, his web site is:

        http://www.gizapyramid.com/BIO-Dunn.htm

        I and many with whom I am affiliated have found Dunn to carry the
        utmost integrity, both personally and professionally.

        Anyway, I knew he would be interested in Herb's photographs and web
        site, so sent a note to him last night. This morning received the
        following reply w/inclusion of one of the green weedy photos. See if
        any of you can spot what he is referring to; I'd not noticed it, but
        can see the circle below the weeds. Herb, can you find that exact
        site again in your excursion back there next spring???

        Susan

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Chris Dunn <cdunn1546@...>
        To: SuzEnglish@...
        Sent: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 12:13 pm
        Subject: RE: Check out ancient_waterways_society : Message:
        Underwater "road" or "structur

        Hi Susan,

        Thanks for the links, they are very interesting. This photograph has
        a round depression in it that looks remarkably precise. Can you find
        out more?

        Thanks,

        Chris

        ------------------------------------------------------------
        From: SuzEnglish@... [mailto:SuzEnglish@...]
        Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 7:42 AM
        To: CDunn1546@...
        Subject: Check out ancient_waterways_society : Message:
        Underwater "road" or "structur

        Chris,

        Below is a web site w/underwater photos from one of our Ancient
        Waterways Society members (Herb Wagner) sent yesterday. He has
        discovered what has the appearance of a road in an extremely remote
        are of NW Wisconsin, near a Lake Superior to Mississippi River
        tributary. He is leaving it up to further investigation whether or
        not the site is natural or man-made. Many of us who lived (and trout
        fished) in the area for decades has ever seen or heard about anything
        like that up there before. The only other photos that seem to
        resemble it (to me) are the "Bimini Road" in the Bahamas, though on a
        much larger scale of stone 'block'.

        He has a number of excellent web sites you might enjoy, esp. if you
        and your family plan a trip up into that area (not far from Bayfield
        and the Apostle Islands, then westward along Lake Superior into the
        Porcupine Mts. and Keweenaw County Copper Country. Herb's
        Wisconsin's Ancient Copper Mines web site has many of us including
        the NW region of Wisconsin as also a significant part of ancient
        copper trade, and might prove likely to have been a significant
        entrance to a direct trade route to the Mississippi.

        If you see anything that resembles the appearance of something man-
        made, please let the group or Herb Wagner know. Or anyone who knows
        how one determines dating and whether or not stone structures as such
        are natural or man-made.

        Steve Garcia is also one of the 20 members of our group, as is
        engineer Vince Barrows who spoke on Cahokia at the Ohio conference
        and has been doing a lot of preservation of Monks Mound and advocacy
        there.

        I know you all are busy with careers and your own research, books,
        family etc.

        Herb's photos and web sites might intrigue you.

        Thanks again,
        Susan

        ________________
        Click here: ancient_waterways_society : Message: Underwater "road"
        or "structure"?

        "Group,
        Months ago I posted about an underwater discovery I made last summer
        in Northern Wisconsin of a possible underwater road. I promised
        photos and finally found time to whip up a webpage containing a few
        images of this unusual feature. Please visit the following link and
        tell me what you think. It's still in somewhat rough form, but I
        would like your opinion on the following:

        Right now I'm calling it a "road" or "causeway." But upon
        consideration I really don't know what it is, so maybe I should
        change it to "possible structure of some kind" that looks like an
        ancient road, although it may well have a natural explanation as I
        also state.

        Thanks!
        [Herb]

        http://www.atthecreation.com/ROAD/UNDERWATER.RD.html

        --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "herbswoods"
        <herbswoods@...> wrote:

        Susan and others:

        I've changed the wording in the webpage from "road" to "structure"
        because really: What is it?

        I don't know the answer; perhaps other members can give their
        opinions and ideas.

        Upon looking at the photos some more, it occurs to me that if it is
        artificial in origin, it could be the TOP of a much larger and mostly
        buried structure. That is almost too extreme a position to take, but
        the possibility cannot be ignored.

        What I need to find are photos of actual human-built ruins or ancient
        roads that show similar "construction" to this site (in quotes
        because, again, it might well be natural in origin and probably is.)

        The overall size of the (exposed) portion of the site was relatively
        small, but I did not measure it. Trying to recall, I'd guess it was
        maybe 15-20 feet wide and maybe 30-50 feet long. Maybe larger. The
        stones were of various sizes, some large enough to be impossible for
        one man to move them, or even two men to move them, but that's just
        rough guesswork.

        I did not see anything else nearby: no mounds, pyramids, etc., but
        like I wrote, the surrounding area was dense vegetation and I did not
        explore it at all. My entire focus was on the "structure" itself. Nor
        did I explore the surrounding upland areas.

        If it's an artificial structure, somebody put a LOT of effort into
        building it and without any sign of modern tools or materials. One
        person could NOT have built it. If artificial, the purpose or intent
        of the site remains a puzzle and a mystery.

        H.W.

        --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
        <beldingenglish@> wrote:

        Herb,

        A very well-written web site, "Discovery of an Underwater Prehistoric
        Road in Northwest Wisconsin?", and the photographs absolutely knocked
        my socks off.

        I moved to Hurley, WI/Ironwood, MI during the late 50's, later lived
        a short time in Superior, WI. I fished brushy trout streams and
        larger Lake Superior tributaries but never saw anything remotely
        resembling what is shown in your photographs.

        Except when helping with two Ancient American Magazine conferences
        out West late 80's, early 90's when viewing photographs that divers
        Dr. William Donato (Washington State)and Frank Joseph had depicting
        the underwater "Bimini Road" near the Bahamas. One or two of your
        photos reminded me of the precisely fitted rectangular blocks, though
        yours seem smaller in size.

        Herb, about how wide and long were some of the paved surfaces you
        uncovered and did any branch off or come to a dead end? Did you see
        anything that resembled burial sites, stone or earthen mounds, rock
        piles, stone walls, etc.? Are any of the structures out on higher
        ground where logging occurred?

        The reason I ask was, that a few years ago a friend was surveying in
        a very remote location northeast of where you are talking about and
        discovered (has been ever since trying to what remains of a number of
        old, possibly ancient stone walls on wilderness land off the beaten
        path of old logging roads. Every wall also had large, surrounding
        stone piles or mounds nearby.

        One stone wall, half-covered with earth, grass, overgrown brush leads
        eerily down and well into a fairly deep lake. I never looked to see
        if there was anything like a road under the thick overgrowth and
        swampy shoreline. The sites I have investigated with him since lie
        within a mile of present day Lake Superior shores. I practically had
        to take a blood oath of secrecy until protection can be given to the
        sites, undoubtedly could never find the areas again. I am urging that
        photographs and carbon-dating be done soon so data and reports can be
        put together and the knowledge put to public use.

        It seems wise at this time you are keeping the whereabouts of the
        location quiet and I applaud your reverent intent to maintain the
        integrity of landscape and waterways, as you portray and describe so
        beautifully on your web sites. Little true wilderness remains any
        more. Many of us know of even well-intended diffusionist researchers
        who have wrought irreversible damage on the landscape searching for
        and/or removing artifacts for public and private museums and displays.

        Web sites such as this help many of us continue considering
        possibilites by sharing and putting together clues to this larger
        landscape of human habitation, possibly extending our history of
        these areas far back not only into early historic but very ancient
        past. I hope others enjoy Herb's web sites as much as I and perhaps
        will speculate about the photos. Please keep us posted on this
        exploration.
        _________________

        I miss hearing recent updates from Georgian member Jamie Clark re:
        the hundreds of seemingly old/ancient stone bird heads discovered a
        year or two in caves and sinkholes on private property. He weemed to
        be doing an excellent job fielding questions for the landowner and
        maintaining anonymity of the site location.

        Thanks for keeping us informed, Herb.

        Susan English

        --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "herbswoods"
        <herbswoods@> wrote:

        Group:

        Months ago I posted about an underwater discovery I made last summer
        in Northern Wisconsin of a possible underwater road. I promised
        photos and finally found time to whip up a webpage containing a few
        images of this unusual feature. Please visit the following link and
        tell me what you think. It's still in somewhat rough form, but I
        would like your opinion on the following:

        Right now I'm calling it a "road" or "causeway." But upon
        consideration I really don't know what it is, so maybe I should
        change it to "possible structure of some kind" that looks like an
        ancient road, although it may well have a natural explanation as I
        also state.

        Thanks!

        http://www.atthecreation.com/ROAD/UNDERWATER.RD.html
      • Susan
        Herb, All, I am going to throw in a couple of web links here in response to your inquiry about possible links on ancient roads, ruins, etc. that relate to this
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 13, 2008
        • 0 Attachment
          Herb, All,

          I am going to throw in a couple of web links here in response to your
          inquiry about possible links on ancient roads, ruins, etc. that
          relate to this fun new NW Wisconsin mystery.

          1. I will let those interestedeted Google "Bimini Road" to check out
          photos...not very similar but a couple of photos I recall seeing a
          few years ago showed a more similar stretch of rectangular stones to
          Herb's photos. Rick "Oz" in our group interviewd William Donato on
          Oopa Loopa Cafe radio recently. I was on a Red Cross mission then
          and have not listened to the program from the archives. But Donato
          and Frank Joseph from Ancient American are both divers, longtime
          friends. I mentioned before Bill was at at least two Ancient American
          conference years ago out West; I saw some of his photos of Bimini
          then.

          But possibly more interesting, Herb and those of you who will be
          following his progress is the following article, listed under the
          title Ancient Archaeology, "BIMINI ROAD, ANALYSIS" from A SCIENTIFIC
          SELECTION OF WEB INFORMATION ON ANCIENT UNDERWATER RUINS AND OTHER
          REMARKABLE FINDS:

          http://www.altarcheologie.nl/index.html?
          underwater_ruins/bimini/bimini_analysis.htm

          Starts very interestingly: "Firstly one should not be confused by the
          word "road", this is only a convenient looking name given by the
          first discoverers. One should see the road initially just as what it
          is: a collection of stones. The question is: are the shape and
          arrangement of these stones such that they are artificial, made by
          man. The usual arguments for this are: regularity, straight lines
          (not circles, nature is pretty good at making circles), some kinds of
          symmetry (not all: natural crystals can also be symmetric, but they
          are usually not bigger than a decimeter), and the like."...

          I will let you read the rest. The article refers to an ocean rock
          structure but likely the same rules apply. (I feel as though I am in
          school again).

          2. Possibly not relative, but something to consider since the article
          stems from an area in close approximation to Herb's tributary of Lake
          Superior re: a wooden crib from the 1870's that washed up on a Duluth
          shore. It mentions something about a "stone road on top". To me, all
          diagrams, photos of rocks don't show anything that even resembles the
          precision of Herb's underwater pattern of large rectangular stones.

          Article is called "Duluth Chapter Helps With Washed Up Crib":

          http://www.glsps.org/crib_project/duluth_crib_project.htm

          What I think it does tell us, though, is that 1800's structures as
          such were likely partially or fully constructed of logs or wood.
          Another example along Lake Superior where I often am the only one
          camping is at Misery Bay was formerly called "Carver's Bay or Carver
          Bay" after explorer Jonathan Carver who Herb discusses in his web
          sites. There is also an Amazon.com book called "Misery Bay and Other
          Stories from Michigan's Upper Peninsula" listed under Mysteries &
          Horror. I'll vouch for that part when camping alone late some
          nights...where the Misery River and Misery Bay come together. I
          generally don't reveal my favorite private camping and kayak spots,
          but this link and photos will show you how remote and beautiful it
          is. Just before the road to Misery Bay turns gravel, on the left in
          front of an old wooden church (turned town hall), along the road is
          an open spigot of pure, artesian water continuously spewing out for
          anyone in the world to help themselves to, and I usually take up
          thirty or fory empty gallon bottles:

          http://hunts-upguide.com/toivola_misery_bay.html

          Misery Bay is one of the places I have mentioned before where I sit
          around a fire late at night, occasionally beneath the spell of Aurora
          Borealis and let 'Mother Nature' try to teach me to think more like
          the ancients who might have also taken refuge there overnight. At the
          entrance to the parking lot is a sign that tells of its origins and
          of Jonathan Carver being there, shipwrecks, terrific storms, earlier
          site of Indian battles, etc., hence later named "Misery" Bay. Very
          old U. of Michigan archaeological maps show even earlier ancient
          Indian habitation, burial sites. The reason I mention this site is
          that some springtimes when the snow and ice recede, old historic
          wooden pilings or skids? peek through the sands in the bay where
          ships were once pulled up or docked. I have stubbed my feet on the
          old pilings sometimes, the water so cold things don't decay fast in
          Lake Superior. Sand has filled the bay over time, but still no
          evidence whatever of any stone structures there. Perhaps a good idea
          to put on snorkeling gear (maybe) to get a better look-see in the
          Misery River, Firesteel and Flintsteel Rivers south toward Ontonagon.
          Below that is where I spent my teens toward Little Girls Point, MI
          and over to Saxon Harbor, Ashland, Bayfield, then farther over to
          Superior (WI)-Duluth (MN).

          None of my old woodsman, hunting and fishing friends from the area
          have ever seen rocks aligned like that anywhere, or even that shape
          anywhere up there and I am sure will also be follow the progress of
          Herb and you who get into this inquiry...

          Susan

          . --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
          <beldingenglish@...> wrote:
          >
          > Herb,
          >
          > Last night I forwarded your website to a friend, Christopher Dunn
          > whom I met through the World Explorer's Club in Kempton, Illinois
          > (David Hatcher Childress who many feel is Thor Heyerdahl's (Kon
          Tiki)
          > protege.) He and Dunn are close, longtime friends, as is engineer
          > Steve Garcia from Ancient Waterways Society, who also expressed
          > interest in your findings to me via email last evening.
          >
          > Dunn is a member of the impressive Board of Directors for the Great
          > Pyramid of Giza Research Association (http://www.gizapyramid.com/)
          and
          > has published a best-sellling book on the Great Pyramid, The Giza
          > Power Plant-Technologies of Ancient Egypt". Of numerous magazine
          > articles, one you might be particularly interested in is "Advanced
          > Machining in Ancient Egypt".
          >
          > Christopher also drove over from his home in Danville, Illinois to
          > the Ohio AAAPF/Thor/Midwest Epigraphic Society Conference last
          > October as one of our speakers. If you or other Ancient Waterways
          > Society members want to read more about Dunn, his web site is:
          >
          > http://www.gizapyramid.com/BIO-Dunn.htm
          >
          > I and many with whom I am affiliated have found Dunn to carry the
          > utmost integrity, both personally and professionally.
          >
          > Anyway, I knew he would be interested in Herb's photographs and web
          > site, so sent a note to him last night. This morning received the
          > following reply w/inclusion of one of the green weedy photos. See
          if
          > any of you can spot what he is referring to; I'd not noticed it,
          but
          > can see the circle below the weeds. Herb, can you find that exact
          > site again in your excursion back there next spring???
          >
          > Susan
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Chris Dunn <cdunn1546@...>
          > To: SuzEnglish@...
          > Sent: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 12:13 pm
          > Subject: RE: Check out ancient_waterways_society : Message:
          > Underwater "road" or "structur
          >
          > Hi Susan,
          >
          > Thanks for the links, they are very interesting. This photograph
          has
          > a round depression in it that looks remarkably precise. Can you
          find
          > out more?
          >
          > Thanks,
          >
          > Chris
          >
          > ------------------------------------------------------------
          > From: SuzEnglish@... [mailto:SuzEnglish@...]
          > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 7:42 AM
          > To: CDunn1546@...
          > Subject: Check out ancient_waterways_society : Message:
          > Underwater "road" or "structur
          >
          > Chris,
          >
          > Below is a web site w/underwater photos from one of our Ancient
          > Waterways Society members (Herb Wagner) sent yesterday. He has
          > discovered what has the appearance of a road in an extremely remote
          > are of NW Wisconsin, near a Lake Superior to Mississippi River
          > tributary. He is leaving it up to further investigation whether or
          > not the site is natural or man-made. Many of us who lived (and
          trout
          > fished) in the area for decades has ever seen or heard about
          anything
          > like that up there before. The only other photos that seem to
          > resemble it (to me) are the "Bimini Road" in the Bahamas, though on
          a
          > much larger scale of stone 'block'.
          >
          > He has a number of excellent web sites you might enjoy, esp. if you
          > and your family plan a trip up into that area (not far from
          Bayfield
          > and the Apostle Islands, then westward along Lake Superior into the
          > Porcupine Mts. and Keweenaw County Copper Country. Herb's
          > Wisconsin's Ancient Copper Mines web site has many of us including
          > the NW region of Wisconsin as also a significant part of ancient
          > copper trade, and might prove likely to have been a significant
          > entrance to a direct trade route to the Mississippi.
          >
          > If you see anything that resembles the appearance of something man-
          > made, please let the group or Herb Wagner know. Or anyone who
          knows
          > how one determines dating and whether or not stone structures as
          such
          > are natural or man-made.
          >
          > Steve Garcia is also one of the 20 members of our group, as is
          > engineer Vince Barrows who spoke on Cahokia at the Ohio conference
          > and has been doing a lot of preservation of Monks Mound and
          advocacy
          > there.
          >
          > I know you all are busy with careers and your own research, books,
          > family etc.
          >
          > Herb's photos and web sites might intrigue you.
          >
          > Thanks again,
          > Susan
          >
          > ________________
          > Click here: ancient_waterways_society : Message: Underwater "road"
          > or "structure"?
          >
          > "Group,
          > Months ago I posted about an underwater discovery I made last
          summer
          > in Northern Wisconsin of a possible underwater road. I promised
          > photos and finally found time to whip up a webpage containing a few
          > images of this unusual feature. Please visit the following link and
          > tell me what you think. It's still in somewhat rough form, but I
          > would like your opinion on the following:
          >
          > Right now I'm calling it a "road" or "causeway." But upon
          > consideration I really don't know what it is, so maybe I should
          > change it to "possible structure of some kind" that looks like an
          > ancient road, although it may well have a natural explanation as I
          > also state.
          >
          > Thanks!
          > [Herb]
          >
          > http://www.atthecreation.com/ROAD/UNDERWATER.RD.html
          >
          > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "herbswoods"
          > <herbswoods@> wrote:
          >
          > Susan and others:
          >
          > I've changed the wording in the webpage from "road" to "structure"
          > because really: What is it?
          >
          > I don't know the answer; perhaps other members can give their
          > opinions and ideas.
          >
          > Upon looking at the photos some more, it occurs to me that if it is
          > artificial in origin, it could be the TOP of a much larger and
          mostly
          > buried structure. That is almost too extreme a position to take,
          but
          > the possibility cannot be ignored.
          >
          > What I need to find are photos of actual human-built ruins or
          ancient
          > roads that show similar "construction" to this site (in quotes
          > because, again, it might well be natural in origin and probably is.)
          >
          > The overall size of the (exposed) portion of the site was relatively
          > small, but I did not measure it. Trying to recall, I'd guess it was
          > maybe 15-20 feet wide and maybe 30-50 feet long. Maybe larger. The
          > stones were of various sizes, some large enough to be impossible for
          > one man to move them, or even two men to move them, but that's just
          > rough guesswork.
          >
          > I did not see anything else nearby: no mounds, pyramids, etc., but
          > like I wrote, the surrounding area was dense vegetation and I did
          not
          > explore it at all. My entire focus was on the "structure" itself.
          Nor
          > did I explore the surrounding upland areas.
          >
          > If it's an artificial structure, somebody put a LOT of effort into
          > building it and without any sign of modern tools or materials. One
          > person could NOT have built it. If artificial, the purpose or intent
          > of the site remains a puzzle and a mystery.
          >
          > H.W.
          >
          > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
          > <beldingenglish@> wrote:
          >
          > Herb,
          >
          > A very well-written web site, "Discovery of an Underwater
          Prehistoric
          > Road in Northwest Wisconsin?", and the photographs absolutely
          knocked
          > my socks off.
          >
          > I moved to Hurley, WI/Ironwood, MI during the late 50's, later
          lived
          > a short time in Superior, WI. I fished brushy trout streams and
          > larger Lake Superior tributaries but never saw anything remotely
          > resembling what is shown in your photographs.
          >
          > Except when helping with two Ancient American Magazine conferences
          > out West late 80's, early 90's when viewing photographs that divers
          > Dr. William Donato (Washington State)and Frank Joseph had depicting
          > the underwater "Bimini Road" near the Bahamas. One or two of your
          > photos reminded me of the precisely fitted rectangular blocks,
          though
          > yours seem smaller in size.
          >
          > Herb, about how wide and long were some of the paved surfaces you
          > uncovered and did any branch off or come to a dead end? Did you
          see
          > anything that resembled burial sites, stone or earthen mounds, rock
          > piles, stone walls, etc.? Are any of the structures out on higher
          > ground where logging occurred?
          >
          > The reason I ask was, that a few years ago a friend was surveying
          in
          > a very remote location northeast of where you are talking about and
          > discovered (has been ever since trying to what remains of a number
          of
          > old, possibly ancient stone walls on wilderness land off the beaten
          > path of old logging roads. Every wall also had large, surrounding
          > stone piles or mounds nearby.
          >
          > One stone wall, half-covered with earth, grass, overgrown brush
          leads
          > eerily down and well into a fairly deep lake. I never looked to see
          > if there was anything like a road under the thick overgrowth and
          > swampy shoreline. The sites I have investigated with him since lie
          > within a mile of present day Lake Superior shores. I practically
          had
          > to take a blood oath of secrecy until protection can be given to
          the
          > sites, undoubtedly could never find the areas again. I am urging
          that
          > photographs and carbon-dating be done soon so data and reports can
          be
          > put together and the knowledge put to public use.
          >
          > It seems wise at this time you are keeping the whereabouts of the
          > location quiet and I applaud your reverent intent to maintain the
          > integrity of landscape and waterways, as you portray and describe
          so
          > beautifully on your web sites. Little true wilderness remains any
          > more. Many of us know of even well-intended diffusionist
          researchers
          > who have wrought irreversible damage on the landscape searching for
          > and/or removing artifacts for public and private museums and
          displays.
          >
          > Web sites such as this help many of us continue considering
          > possibilites by sharing and putting together clues to this larger
          > landscape of human habitation, possibly extending our history of
          > these areas far back not only into early historic but very ancient
          > past. I hope others enjoy Herb's web sites as much as I and perhaps
          > will speculate about the photos. Please keep us posted on this
          > exploration.
          > _________________
          >
          > I miss hearing recent updates from Georgian member Jamie Clark re:
          > the hundreds of seemingly old/ancient stone bird heads discovered a
          > year or two in caves and sinkholes on private property. He weemed
          to
          > be doing an excellent job fielding questions for the landowner and
          > maintaining anonymity of the site location.
          >
          > Thanks for keeping us informed, Herb.
          >
          > Susan English
          >
          > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "herbswoods"
          > <herbswoods@> wrote:
          >
          > Group:
          >
          > Months ago I posted about an underwater discovery I made last summer
          > in Northern Wisconsin of a possible underwater road. I promised
          > photos and finally found time to whip up a webpage containing a few
          > images of this unusual feature. Please visit the following link and
          > tell me what you think. It's still in somewhat rough form, but I
          > would like your opinion on the following:
          >
          > Right now I'm calling it a "road" or "causeway." But upon
          > consideration I really don't know what it is, so maybe I should
          > change it to "possible structure of some kind" that looks like an
          > ancient road, although it may well have a natural explanation as I
          > also state.
          >
          > Thanks!
          >
          > http://www.atthecreation.com/ROAD/UNDERWATER.RD.html
          >
        • bigalemc2
          Herb - Great photos! Well, you certainly have turned up something unusual. It took me a while to look at these, finally, but I did and am glad to see them. I
          Message 4 of 13 , Jan 13, 2008
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            Herb -

            Great photos!

            Well, you certainly have turned up something unusual.

            It took me a while to look at these, finally, but I did and am glad to see them.

            I can hardly add anything to your speculations on them.  You've covered most of the possibilities.

            My POV on the photos is that you have good reason to think they are man-made.  They look more man-made than the Bimini road, to me.  The first photo was narrow enough that I thought it was a wash between man-made and natural, but in the latter ones the weight of the argument - IMHO - pushed over to the man-made end of the spectrum.

            Personally, what I like to do is to argue that they are what I DON'T want them to be, and see if that holds water - without getting bozo with speculation and diversion from Occam's Razor, which says that the simpler explanation that covers all the bases is probably the correct one.  More than a few little questions come to mind, so I will lay out what those are, for what it is worth.

            Numbering the photos from top to bottom #1 through #5:

            #1 questions and notes:
            1. What kind of stone is it?
            2. Is there any evidence that the stone(s) was not laid there naturally?
            3. Is the kind of stone present known to crack naturally in straight lines?
            4. Does this kind of stone also crack naturally in such a near-rectilinear fashion?  Some may, most would not seem to.
            5. This photo does not show right angles on all the cracks.
            6. How uniformly wide are the cracks? 
            7. If they were naturally formed, is there evidence that all the cracks might have been formed naturally at the same time, under the same forces or influences?
            8. How extensive is the entire stone area?
            9. Does the area extend under the aquatic vegetation upstream or down?
            10. Does the area extend under the river bank?
            11. Are the edges of the entire stone area natural-looking?
            12. How level is the top surface?
            13. How deep are the stones set into the river bottom?
            14. Is there more than one layer?  (This mirrors your idea that they may be the roof of a structure.)
            15. What underlies the stone area?
            16. Does the alignment follow along the bottom of the river bed?  Across it?  At an angle?
            Some of these are trite questions, but these and more need to be asked to determine if the formation is natural.

            Photo #2 and #3:  I do not see any stone in those.

            Photo #4 - all the same questions and comments apply as to photo #1, plus:
            1. This one raised my eyebrows.  A LOT.
            2. This pattern would be difficult to argue as natural
            3. The right angles are quite evident
            4. The alignment of the cross joints is amazing if naturally formed
            5. The two narrower stones have nearly aligned cracks on both sides, which make it hard to argue for natural formation
            6. The crack between the larger stone and the one 'above' it seems not to have parallel sides, which would tend to argue it is naturally formed
            7. The top surface does seem to be essentially flat, if not level
            Photo #5 - all the same questions and comments apply as to photo #1 and #4, plus:
            1. The pattern is definitely rectilinear
            2. This seems to suggest a long, linear pattern to the area, similar to a road or a paved ford
            3. Are the long cracks parallel?  If so, to what degree?
            4. The 'roadway' seems to be crowned.  Is that an illusion or true?
            5. One stone in the top of the photo does not match up crack-to-crack with those around it, in the simplest rectilinear pattern.  The mating one on the right is actually two stones.  Does this occur elsewhere?  (This seems to suggest that natural forces did not crack the two on the right, since the natural force would also have been trying to crack the single one, too.)
            Photos #4 and #5 are pretty amazing.

            Old maps would seem to be the order of the day, to see if any show any road here known to early settlers or to known industries in the area.

            You have to show that these are not known to anyone at any earlier time.  I suggest reading this book: The Island of Seven Cities: Where the Chinese Settled When They Discovered AmericaThe author went through the same kind of proving out - to himself - that your site will pretty much need to do.  He assumed that the site he'd found was known to earlier settlers, then exhausted every one of those possibilities.  What was left was not what he had ever considered possible, but it turned out to be the probable answer.

            I do not profess to have covered all the possible questions, nor to have any great insight into anything about this.  If any of the above helps you in your thinking, Herb, go for it.

            Steve Garcia
          • herbswoods
            Susan, Thanks for the Bimini road websites. Of course I ve heard of that locale before, but have never studied it and I ll do so now. Notice how I fell into
            Message 5 of 13 , Jan 15, 2008
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              Susan,

              Thanks for the Bimini "road" websites. Of course I've heard of that
              locale before, but have never studied it and I'll do so now.

              Notice how I fell into the same first response mentioned there to call
              my discovery a "road." But after thinking about it, while it does
              rather look like a road, I don't that's what it is or that it's not
              natural. For now the webpage is done, but I might go back and change
              it upon more study.

              Yes, I too have seen old structures and pilings around Superior Bay,
              mouth of Amnicon River, and in the U.P. Never have visited Misery Bay,
              but am familiar with the story behind the name. I have also seen old
              bridge footings and pilings in area streams, but the site I discovered
              doesn't look at all like that stuff. Unique and strikingly different
              from anything else.

              Also, your colleague Chris asked remarked: "This photograph
              has a round depression in it that looks remarkably precise."

              Which photo was he referring to? Not sure what "round depression" he's
              talking about but I'm interested.

              Thanks!
              HW

              --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
              <beldingenglish@...> wrote:
              >
              > Herb, All,
              >
              > I am going to throw in a couple of web links here in response to your
              > inquiry about possible links on ancient roads, ruins, etc. that
              > relate to this fun new NW Wisconsin mystery.
              >
              > 1. I will let those interestedeted Google "Bimini Road" to check out
              > photos...not very similar but a couple of photos I recall seeing a
              > few years ago showed a more similar stretch of rectangular stones to
              > Herb's photos. Rick "Oz" in our group interviewd William Donato on
              > Oopa Loopa Cafe radio recently. I was on a Red Cross mission then
              > and have not listened to the program from the archives. But Donato
              > and Frank Joseph from Ancient American are both divers, longtime
              > friends. I mentioned before Bill was at at least two Ancient American
              > conference years ago out West; I saw some of his photos of Bimini
              > then.
              >
              > But possibly more interesting, Herb and those of you who will be
              > following his progress is the following article, listed under the
              > title Ancient Archaeology, "BIMINI ROAD, ANALYSIS" from A SCIENTIFIC
              > SELECTION OF WEB INFORMATION ON ANCIENT UNDERWATER RUINS AND OTHER
              > REMARKABLE FINDS:
              >
              > http://www.altarcheologie.nl/index.html?
              > underwater_ruins/bimini/bimini_analysis.htm
              >
              > Starts very interestingly: "Firstly one should not be confused by the
              > word "road", this is only a convenient looking name given by the
              > first discoverers. One should see the road initially just as what it
              > is: a collection of stones. The question is: are the shape and
              > arrangement of these stones such that they are artificial, made by
              > man. The usual arguments for this are: regularity, straight lines
              > (not circles, nature is pretty good at making circles), some kinds of
              > symmetry (not all: natural crystals can also be symmetric, but they
              > are usually not bigger than a decimeter), and the like."...
              >
              > I will let you read the rest. The article refers to an ocean rock
              > structure but likely the same rules apply. (I feel as though I am in
              > school again).
              >
              > 2. Possibly not relative, but something to consider since the article
              > stems from an area in close approximation to Herb's tributary of Lake
              > Superior re: a wooden crib from the 1870's that washed up on a Duluth
              > shore. It mentions something about a "stone road on top". To me, all
              > diagrams, photos of rocks don't show anything that even resembles the
              > precision of Herb's underwater pattern of large rectangular stones.
              >
              > Article is called "Duluth Chapter Helps With Washed Up Crib":
              >
              > http://www.glsps.org/crib_project/duluth_crib_project.htm
              >
              > What I think it does tell us, though, is that 1800's structures as
              > such were likely partially or fully constructed of logs or wood.
              > Another example along Lake Superior where I often am the only one
              > camping is at Misery Bay was formerly called "Carver's Bay or Carver
              > Bay" after explorer Jonathan Carver who Herb discusses in his web
              > sites. There is also an Amazon.com book called "Misery Bay and Other
              > Stories from Michigan's Upper Peninsula" listed under Mysteries &
              > Horror. I'll vouch for that part when camping alone late some
              > nights...where the Misery River and Misery Bay come together. I
              > generally don't reveal my favorite private camping and kayak spots,
              > but this link and photos will show you how remote and beautiful it
              > is. Just before the road to Misery Bay turns gravel, on the left in
              > front of an old wooden church (turned town hall), along the road is
              > an open spigot of pure, artesian water continuously spewing out for
              > anyone in the world to help themselves to, and I usually take up
              > thirty or fory empty gallon bottles:
              >
              > http://hunts-upguide.com/toivola_misery_bay.html
              >
              > Misery Bay is one of the places I have mentioned before where I sit
              > around a fire late at night, occasionally beneath the spell of Aurora
              > Borealis and let 'Mother Nature' try to teach me to think more like
              > the ancients who might have also taken refuge there overnight. At the
              > entrance to the parking lot is a sign that tells of its origins and
              > of Jonathan Carver being there, shipwrecks, terrific storms, earlier
              > site of Indian battles, etc., hence later named "Misery" Bay. Very
              > old U. of Michigan archaeological maps show even earlier ancient
              > Indian habitation, burial sites. The reason I mention this site is
              > that some springtimes when the snow and ice recede, old historic
              > wooden pilings or skids? peek through the sands in the bay where
              > ships were once pulled up or docked. I have stubbed my feet on the
              > old pilings sometimes, the water so cold things don't decay fast in
              > Lake Superior. Sand has filled the bay over time, but still no
              > evidence whatever of any stone structures there. Perhaps a good idea
              > to put on snorkeling gear (maybe) to get a better look-see in the
              > Misery River, Firesteel and Flintsteel Rivers south toward Ontonagon.
              > Below that is where I spent my teens toward Little Girls Point, MI
              > and over to Saxon Harbor, Ashland, Bayfield, then farther over to
              > Superior (WI)-Duluth (MN).
              >
              > None of my old woodsman, hunting and fishing friends from the area
              > have ever seen rocks aligned like that anywhere, or even that shape
              > anywhere up there and I am sure will also be follow the progress of
              > Herb and you who get into this inquiry...
              >
              > Susan
              >
              > . --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
              > <beldingenglish@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Herb,
              > >
              > > Last night I forwarded your website to a friend, Christopher Dunn
              > > whom I met through the World Explorer's Club in Kempton, Illinois
              > > (David Hatcher Childress who many feel is Thor Heyerdahl's (Kon
              > Tiki)
              > > protege.) He and Dunn are close, longtime friends, as is engineer
              > > Steve Garcia from Ancient Waterways Society, who also expressed
              > > interest in your findings to me via email last evening.
              > >
              > > Dunn is a member of the impressive Board of Directors for the Great
              > > Pyramid of Giza Research Association (http://www.gizapyramid.com/)
              > and
              > > has published a best-sellling book on the Great Pyramid, The Giza
              > > Power Plant-Technologies of Ancient Egypt". Of numerous magazine
              > > articles, one you might be particularly interested in is "Advanced
              > > Machining in Ancient Egypt".
              > >
              > > Christopher also drove over from his home in Danville, Illinois to
              > > the Ohio AAAPF/Thor/Midwest Epigraphic Society Conference last
              > > October as one of our speakers. If you or other Ancient Waterways
              > > Society members want to read more about Dunn, his web site is:
              > >
              > > http://www.gizapyramid.com/BIO-Dunn.htm
              > >
              > > I and many with whom I am affiliated have found Dunn to carry the
              > > utmost integrity, both personally and professionally.
              > >
              > > Anyway, I knew he would be interested in Herb's photographs and web
              > > site, so sent a note to him last night. This morning received the
              > > following reply w/inclusion of one of the green weedy photos. See
              > if
              > > any of you can spot what he is referring to; I'd not noticed it,
              > but
              > > can see the circle below the weeds. Herb, can you find that exact
              > > site again in your excursion back there next spring???
              > >
              > > Susan
              > >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: Chris Dunn <cdunn1546@>
              > > To: SuzEnglish@
              > > Sent: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 12:13 pm
              > > Subject: RE: Check out ancient_waterways_society : Message:
              > > Underwater "road" or "structur
              > >
              > > Hi Susan,
              > >
              > > Thanks for the links, they are very interesting. This photograph
              > has
              > > a round depression in it that looks remarkably precise. Can you
              > find
              > > out more?
              > >
              > > Thanks,
              > >
              > > Chris
              > >
              > > ------------------------------------------------------------
              > > From: SuzEnglish@ [mailto:SuzEnglish@]
              > > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 7:42 AM
              > > To: CDunn1546@
              > > Subject: Check out ancient_waterways_society : Message:
              > > Underwater "road" or "structur
              > >
              > > Chris,
              > >
              > > Below is a web site w/underwater photos from one of our Ancient
              > > Waterways Society members (Herb Wagner) sent yesterday. He has
              > > discovered what has the appearance of a road in an extremely remote
              > > are of NW Wisconsin, near a Lake Superior to Mississippi River
              > > tributary. He is leaving it up to further investigation whether or
              > > not the site is natural or man-made. Many of us who lived (and
              > trout
              > > fished) in the area for decades has ever seen or heard about
              > anything
              > > like that up there before. The only other photos that seem to
              > > resemble it (to me) are the "Bimini Road" in the Bahamas, though on
              > a
              > > much larger scale of stone 'block'.
              > >
              > > He has a number of excellent web sites you might enjoy, esp. if you
              > > and your family plan a trip up into that area (not far from
              > Bayfield
              > > and the Apostle Islands, then westward along Lake Superior into the
              > > Porcupine Mts. and Keweenaw County Copper Country. Herb's
              > > Wisconsin's Ancient Copper Mines web site has many of us including
              > > the NW region of Wisconsin as also a significant part of ancient
              > > copper trade, and might prove likely to have been a significant
              > > entrance to a direct trade route to the Mississippi.
              > >
              > > If you see anything that resembles the appearance of something man-
              > > made, please let the group or Herb Wagner know. Or anyone who
              > knows
              > > how one determines dating and whether or not stone structures as
              > such
              > > are natural or man-made.
              > >
              > > Steve Garcia is also one of the 20 members of our group, as is
              > > engineer Vince Barrows who spoke on Cahokia at the Ohio conference
              > > and has been doing a lot of preservation of Monks Mound and
              > advocacy
              > > there.
              > >
              > > I know you all are busy with careers and your own research, books,
              > > family etc.
              > >
              > > Herb's photos and web sites might intrigue you.
              > >
              > > Thanks again,
              > > Susan
              > >
              > > ________________
              > > Click here: ancient_waterways_society : Message: Underwater "road"
              > > or "structure"?
              > >
              > > "Group,
              > > Months ago I posted about an underwater discovery I made last
              > summer
              > > in Northern Wisconsin of a possible underwater road. I promised
              > > photos and finally found time to whip up a webpage containing a few
              > > images of this unusual feature. Please visit the following link and
              > > tell me what you think. It's still in somewhat rough form, but I
              > > would like your opinion on the following:
              > >
              > > Right now I'm calling it a "road" or "causeway." But upon
              > > consideration I really don't know what it is, so maybe I should
              > > change it to "possible structure of some kind" that looks like an
              > > ancient road, although it may well have a natural explanation as I
              > > also state.
              > >
              > > Thanks!
              > > [Herb]
              > >
              > > http://www.atthecreation.com/ROAD/UNDERWATER.RD.html
              > >
              > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "herbswoods"
              > > <herbswoods@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Susan and others:
              > >
              > > I've changed the wording in the webpage from "road" to "structure"
              > > because really: What is it?
              > >
              > > I don't know the answer; perhaps other members can give their
              > > opinions and ideas.
              > >
              > > Upon looking at the photos some more, it occurs to me that if it is
              > > artificial in origin, it could be the TOP of a much larger and
              > mostly
              > > buried structure. That is almost too extreme a position to take,
              > but
              > > the possibility cannot be ignored.
              > >
              > > What I need to find are photos of actual human-built ruins or
              > ancient
              > > roads that show similar "construction" to this site (in quotes
              > > because, again, it might well be natural in origin and probably is.)
              > >
              > > The overall size of the (exposed) portion of the site was relatively
              > > small, but I did not measure it. Trying to recall, I'd guess it was
              > > maybe 15-20 feet wide and maybe 30-50 feet long. Maybe larger. The
              > > stones were of various sizes, some large enough to be impossible for
              > > one man to move them, or even two men to move them, but that's just
              > > rough guesswork.
              > >
              > > I did not see anything else nearby: no mounds, pyramids, etc., but
              > > like I wrote, the surrounding area was dense vegetation and I did
              > not
              > > explore it at all. My entire focus was on the "structure" itself.
              > Nor
              > > did I explore the surrounding upland areas.
              > >
              > > If it's an artificial structure, somebody put a LOT of effort into
              > > building it and without any sign of modern tools or materials. One
              > > person could NOT have built it. If artificial, the purpose or intent
              > > of the site remains a puzzle and a mystery.
              > >
              > > H.W.
              > >
              > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
              > > <beldingenglish@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Herb,
              > >
              > > A very well-written web site, "Discovery of an Underwater
              > Prehistoric
              > > Road in Northwest Wisconsin?", and the photographs absolutely
              > knocked
              > > my socks off.
              > >
              > > I moved to Hurley, WI/Ironwood, MI during the late 50's, later
              > lived
              > > a short time in Superior, WI. I fished brushy trout streams and
              > > larger Lake Superior tributaries but never saw anything remotely
              > > resembling what is shown in your photographs.
              > >
              > > Except when helping with two Ancient American Magazine conferences
              > > out West late 80's, early 90's when viewing photographs that divers
              > > Dr. William Donato (Washington State)and Frank Joseph had depicting
              > > the underwater "Bimini Road" near the Bahamas. One or two of your
              > > photos reminded me of the precisely fitted rectangular blocks,
              > though
              > > yours seem smaller in size.
              > >
              > > Herb, about how wide and long were some of the paved surfaces you
              > > uncovered and did any branch off or come to a dead end? Did you
              > see
              > > anything that resembled burial sites, stone or earthen mounds, rock
              > > piles, stone walls, etc.? Are any of the structures out on higher
              > > ground where logging occurred?
              > >
              > > The reason I ask was, that a few years ago a friend was surveying
              > in
              > > a very remote location northeast of where you are talking about and
              > > discovered (has been ever since trying to what remains of a number
              > of
              > > old, possibly ancient stone walls on wilderness land off the beaten
              > > path of old logging roads. Every wall also had large, surrounding
              > > stone piles or mounds nearby.
              > >
              > > One stone wall, half-covered with earth, grass, overgrown brush
              > leads
              > > eerily down and well into a fairly deep lake. I never looked to see
              > > if there was anything like a road under the thick overgrowth and
              > > swampy shoreline. The sites I have investigated with him since lie
              > > within a mile of present day Lake Superior shores. I practically
              > had
              > > to take a blood oath of secrecy until protection can be given to
              > the
              > > sites, undoubtedly could never find the areas again. I am urging
              > that
              > > photographs and carbon-dating be done soon so data and reports can
              > be
              > > put together and the knowledge put to public use.
              > >
              > > It seems wise at this time you are keeping the whereabouts of the
              > > location quiet and I applaud your reverent intent to maintain the
              > > integrity of landscape and waterways, as you portray and describe
              > so
              > > beautifully on your web sites. Little true wilderness remains any
              > > more. Many of us know of even well-intended diffusionist
              > researchers
              > > who have wrought irreversible damage on the landscape searching for
              > > and/or removing artifacts for public and private museums and
              > displays.
              > >
              > > Web sites such as this help many of us continue considering
              > > possibilites by sharing and putting together clues to this larger
              > > landscape of human habitation, possibly extending our history of
              > > these areas far back not only into early historic but very ancient
              > > past. I hope others enjoy Herb's web sites as much as I and perhaps
              > > will speculate about the photos. Please keep us posted on this
              > > exploration.
              > > _________________
              > >
              > > I miss hearing recent updates from Georgian member Jamie Clark re:
              > > the hundreds of seemingly old/ancient stone bird heads discovered a
              > > year or two in caves and sinkholes on private property. He weemed
              > to
              > > be doing an excellent job fielding questions for the landowner and
              > > maintaining anonymity of the site location.
              > >
              > > Thanks for keeping us informed, Herb.
              > >
              > > Susan English
              > >
              > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "herbswoods"
              > > <herbswoods@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Group:
              > >
              > > Months ago I posted about an underwater discovery I made last summer
              > > in Northern Wisconsin of a possible underwater road. I promised
              > > photos and finally found time to whip up a webpage containing a few
              > > images of this unusual feature. Please visit the following link and
              > > tell me what you think. It's still in somewhat rough form, but I
              > > would like your opinion on the following:
              > >
              > > Right now I'm calling it a "road" or "causeway." But upon
              > > consideration I really don't know what it is, so maybe I should
              > > change it to "possible structure of some kind" that looks like an
              > > ancient road, although it may well have a natural explanation as I
              > > also state.
              > >
              > > Thanks!
              > >
              > > http://www.atthecreation.com/ROAD/UNDERWATER.RD.html
              > >
              >
            • Susan
              Herb, Steve, and All, When I first opened the email reply from Christopher it had on the page one of your little photos. Now it isn t and it boggles my mind.
              Message 6 of 13 , Jan 15, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                Herb, Steve, and All,

                When I first opened the email reply from Christopher it had on the
                page one of your little photos. Now it isn't and it boggles my mind.
                But I see what he was referreing to. Maybe Steve Garcia does, too.
                He is an engineer and long into ancient studies. Steve is a longtime
                personal friend of Christopher Dunn, Hatcher Childress and some of
                their associates while I am more an acquaintence through conferences.

                Do you fellows and members at this message board see the circle
                within the green reedy photo on Herb's new web page (within the
                paragraph "That day, chilled by the...")?

                Dunn had written..."This photograph has a round depression in it that
                looks remarkably precise. Can you find out more? Thanks, Chris"
                _________________

                Susan





                --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "herbswoods"
                <herbswoods@...> wrote:
                >
                > Susan,
                >
                > Thanks for the Bimini "road" websites. Of course I've heard of that
                > locale before, but have never studied it and I'll do so now.
                >
                > Notice how I fell into the same first response mentioned there to
                call
                > my discovery a "road." But after thinking about it, while it does
                > rather look like a road, I don't that's what it is or that it's not
                > natural. For now the webpage is done, but I might go back and change
                > it upon more study.
                >
                > Yes, I too have seen old structures and pilings around Superior Bay,
                > mouth of Amnicon River, and in the U.P. Never have visited Misery
                Bay,
                > but am familiar with the story behind the name. I have also seen old
                > bridge footings and pilings in area streams, but the site I
                discovered
                > doesn't look at all like that stuff. Unique and strikingly different
                > from anything else.
                >
                > Also, your colleague Chris asked remarked: "This photograph
                > has a round depression in it that looks remarkably precise."
                >
                > Which photo was he referring to? Not sure what "round depression"
                he's
                > talking about but I'm interested.
                >
                > Thanks!
                > HW
                >
                > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
                > <beldingenglish@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Herb, All,
                > >
                > > I am going to throw in a couple of web links here in response to
                your
                > > inquiry about possible links on ancient roads, ruins, etc. that
                > > relate to this fun new NW Wisconsin mystery.
                > >
                > > 1. I will let those interestedeted Google "Bimini Road" to check
                out
                > > photos...not very similar but a couple of photos I recall seeing
                a
                > > few years ago showed a more similar stretch of rectangular stones
                to
                > > Herb's photos. Rick "Oz" in our group interviewd William Donato
                on
                > > Oopa Loopa Cafe radio recently. I was on a Red Cross mission
                then
                > > and have not listened to the program from the archives. But
                Donato
                > > and Frank Joseph from Ancient American are both divers, longtime
                > > friends. I mentioned before Bill was at at least two Ancient
                American
                > > conference years ago out West; I saw some of his photos of Bimini
                > > then.
                > >
                > > But possibly more interesting, Herb and those of you who will be
                > > following his progress is the following article, listed under the
                > > title Ancient Archaeology, "BIMINI ROAD, ANALYSIS" from A
                SCIENTIFIC
                > > SELECTION OF WEB INFORMATION ON ANCIENT UNDERWATER RUINS AND
                OTHER
                > > REMARKABLE FINDS:
                > >
                > > http://www.altarcheologie.nl/index.html?
                > > underwater_ruins/bimini/bimini_analysis.htm
                > >
                > > Starts very interestingly: "Firstly one should not be confused by
                the
                > > word "road", this is only a convenient looking name given by the
                > > first discoverers. One should see the road initially just as what
                it
                > > is: a collection of stones. The question is: are the shape and
                > > arrangement of these stones such that they are artificial, made
                by
                > > man. The usual arguments for this are: regularity, straight lines
                > > (not circles, nature is pretty good at making circles), some
                kinds of
                > > symmetry (not all: natural crystals can also be symmetric, but
                they
                > > are usually not bigger than a decimeter), and the like."...
                > >
                > > I will let you read the rest. The article refers to an ocean rock
                > > structure but likely the same rules apply. (I feel as though I
                am in
                > > school again).
                > >
                > > 2. Possibly not relative, but something to consider since the
                article
                > > stems from an area in close approximation to Herb's tributary of
                Lake
                > > Superior re: a wooden crib from the 1870's that washed up on a
                Duluth
                > > shore. It mentions something about a "stone road on top". To me,
                all
                > > diagrams, photos of rocks don't show anything that even resembles
                the
                > > precision of Herb's underwater pattern of large rectangular
                stones.
                > >
                > > Article is called "Duluth Chapter Helps With Washed Up Crib":
                > >
                > > http://www.glsps.org/crib_project/duluth_crib_project.htm
                > >
                > > What I think it does tell us, though, is that 1800's structures
                as
                > > such were likely partially or fully constructed of logs or wood.
                > > Another example along Lake Superior where I often am the only one
                > > camping is at Misery Bay was formerly called "Carver's Bay or
                Carver
                > > Bay" after explorer Jonathan Carver who Herb discusses in his web
                > > sites. There is also an Amazon.com book called "Misery Bay and
                Other
                > > Stories from Michigan's Upper Peninsula" listed under Mysteries &
                > > Horror. I'll vouch for that part when camping alone late some
                > > nights...where the Misery River and Misery Bay come together. I
                > > generally don't reveal my favorite private camping and kayak
                spots,
                > > but this link and photos will show you how remote and beautiful
                it
                > > is. Just before the road to Misery Bay turns gravel, on the left
                in
                > > front of an old wooden church (turned town hall), along the road
                is
                > > an open spigot of pure, artesian water continuously spewing out
                for
                > > anyone in the world to help themselves to, and I usually take up
                > > thirty or fory empty gallon bottles:
                > >
                > > http://hunts-upguide.com/toivola_misery_bay.html
                > >
                > > Misery Bay is one of the places I have mentioned before where I
                sit
                > > around a fire late at night, occasionally beneath the spell of
                Aurora
                > > Borealis and let 'Mother Nature' try to teach me to think more
                like
                > > the ancients who might have also taken refuge there overnight. At
                the
                > > entrance to the parking lot is a sign that tells of its origins
                and
                > > of Jonathan Carver being there, shipwrecks, terrific storms,
                earlier
                > > site of Indian battles, etc., hence later named "Misery" Bay.
                Very
                > > old U. of Michigan archaeological maps show even earlier ancient
                > > Indian habitation, burial sites. The reason I mention this site
                is
                > > that some springtimes when the snow and ice recede, old historic
                > > wooden pilings or skids? peek through the sands in the bay where
                > > ships were once pulled up or docked. I have stubbed my feet on
                the
                > > old pilings sometimes, the water so cold things don't decay fast
                in
                > > Lake Superior. Sand has filled the bay over time, but still no
                > > evidence whatever of any stone structures there. Perhaps a good
                idea
                > > to put on snorkeling gear (maybe) to get a better look-see in the
                > > Misery River, Firesteel and Flintsteel Rivers south toward
                Ontonagon.
                > > Below that is where I spent my teens toward Little Girls Point,
                MI
                > > and over to Saxon Harbor, Ashland, Bayfield, then farther over to
                > > Superior (WI)-Duluth (MN).
                > >
                > > None of my old woodsman, hunting and fishing friends from the
                area
                > > have ever seen rocks aligned like that anywhere, or even that
                shape
                > > anywhere up there and I am sure will also be follow the progress
                of
                > > Herb and you who get into this inquiry...
                > >
                > > Susan
                > >
                > > . --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
                > > <beldingenglish@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Herb,
                > > >
                > > > Last night I forwarded your website to a friend, Christopher
                Dunn
                > > > whom I met through the World Explorer's Club in Kempton,
                Illinois
                > > > (David Hatcher Childress who many feel is Thor Heyerdahl's (Kon
                > > Tiki)
                > > > protege.) He and Dunn are close, longtime friends, as is
                engineer
                > > > Steve Garcia from Ancient Waterways Society, who also expressed
                > > > interest in your findings to me via email last evening.
                > > >
                > > > Dunn is a member of the impressive Board of Directors for the
                Great
                > > > Pyramid of Giza Research Association
                (http://www.gizapyramid.com/)
                > > and
                > > > has published a best-sellling book on the Great Pyramid, The
                Giza
                > > > Power Plant-Technologies of Ancient Egypt". Of numerous
                magazine
                > > > articles, one you might be particularly interested in
                is "Advanced
                > > > Machining in Ancient Egypt".
                > > >
                > > > Christopher also drove over from his home in Danville, Illinois
                to
                > > > the Ohio AAAPF/Thor/Midwest Epigraphic Society Conference last
                > > > October as one of our speakers. If you or other Ancient
                Waterways
                > > > Society members want to read more about Dunn, his web site is:
                > > >
                > > > http://www.gizapyramid.com/BIO-Dunn.htm
                > > >
                > > > I and many with whom I am affiliated have found Dunn to carry
                the
                > > > utmost integrity, both personally and professionally.
                > > >
                > > > Anyway, I knew he would be interested in Herb's photographs and
                web
                > > > site, so sent a note to him last night. This morning received
                the
                > > > following reply w/inclusion of one of the green weedy photos.
                See
                > > if
                > > > any of you can spot what he is referring to; I'd not noticed
                it,
                > > but
                > > > can see the circle below the weeds. Herb, can you find that
                exact
                > > > site again in your excursion back there next spring???
                > > >
                > > > Susan
                > > >
                > > > -----Original Message-----
                > > > From: Chris Dunn <cdunn1546@>
                > > > To: SuzEnglish@
                > > > Sent: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 12:13 pm
                > > > Subject: RE: Check out ancient_waterways_society : Message:
                > > > Underwater "road" or "structur
                > > >
                > > > Hi Susan,
                > > >
                > > > Thanks for the links, they are very interesting. This
                photograph
                > > has
                > > > a round depression in it that looks remarkably precise. Can you
                > > find
                > > > out more?
                > > >
                > > > Thanks,
                > > >
                > > > Chris
                > > >
                > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
                > > > From: SuzEnglish@ [mailto:SuzEnglish@]
                > > > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 7:42 AM
                > > > To: CDunn1546@
                > > > Subject: Check out ancient_waterways_society : Message:
                > > > Underwater "road" or "structur
                > > >
                > > > Chris,
                > > >
                > > > Below is a web site w/underwater photos from one of our Ancient
                > > > Waterways Society members (Herb Wagner) sent yesterday. He has
                > > > discovered what has the appearance of a road in an extremely
                remote
                > > > are of NW Wisconsin, near a Lake Superior to Mississippi River
                > > > tributary. He is leaving it up to further investigation
                whether or
                > > > not the site is natural or man-made. Many of us who lived (and
                > > trout
                > > > fished) in the area for decades has ever seen or heard about
                > > anything
                > > > like that up there before. The only other photos that seem to
                > > > resemble it (to me) are the "Bimini Road" in the Bahamas,
                though on
                > > a
                > > > much larger scale of stone 'block'.
                > > >
                > > > He has a number of excellent web sites you might enjoy, esp. if
                you
                > > > and your family plan a trip up into that area (not far from
                > > Bayfield
                > > > and the Apostle Islands, then westward along Lake Superior into
                the
                > > > Porcupine Mts. and Keweenaw County Copper Country. Herb's
                > > > Wisconsin's Ancient Copper Mines web site has many of us
                including
                > > > the NW region of Wisconsin as also a significant part of
                ancient
                > > > copper trade, and might prove likely to have been a significant
                > > > entrance to a direct trade route to the Mississippi.
                > > >
                > > > If you see anything that resembles the appearance of something
                man-
                > > > made, please let the group or Herb Wagner know. Or anyone who
                > > knows
                > > > how one determines dating and whether or not stone structures
                as
                > > such
                > > > are natural or man-made.
                > > >
                > > > Steve Garcia is also one of the 20 members of our group, as is
                > > > engineer Vince Barrows who spoke on Cahokia at the Ohio
                conference
                > > > and has been doing a lot of preservation of Monks Mound and
                > > advocacy
                > > > there.
                > > >
                > > > I know you all are busy with careers and your own research,
                books,
                > > > family etc.
                > > >
                > > > Herb's photos and web sites might intrigue you.
                > > >
                > > > Thanks again,
                > > > Susan
                > > >
                > > > ________________
                > > > Click here: ancient_waterways_society : Message:
                Underwater "road"
                > > > or "structure"?
                > > >
                > > > "Group,
                > > > Months ago I posted about an underwater discovery I made last
                > > summer
                > > > in Northern Wisconsin of a possible underwater road. I promised
                > > > photos and finally found time to whip up a webpage containing a
                few
                > > > images of this unusual feature. Please visit the following link
                and
                > > > tell me what you think. It's still in somewhat rough form, but
                I
                > > > would like your opinion on the following:
                > > >
                > > > Right now I'm calling it a "road" or "causeway." But upon
                > > > consideration I really don't know what it is, so maybe I should
                > > > change it to "possible structure of some kind" that looks like
                an
                > > > ancient road, although it may well have a natural explanation
                as I
                > > > also state.
                > > >
                > > > Thanks!
                > > > [Herb]
                > > >
                > > > http://www.atthecreation.com/ROAD/UNDERWATER.RD.html
                > > >
                > > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "herbswoods"
                > > > <herbswoods@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Susan and others:
                > > >
                > > > I've changed the wording in the webpage from "road"
                to "structure"
                > > > because really: What is it?
                > > >
                > > > I don't know the answer; perhaps other members can give their
                > > > opinions and ideas.
                > > >
                > > > Upon looking at the photos some more, it occurs to me that if
                it is
                > > > artificial in origin, it could be the TOP of a much larger and
                > > mostly
                > > > buried structure. That is almost too extreme a position to
                take,
                > > but
                > > > the possibility cannot be ignored.
                > > >
                > > > What I need to find are photos of actual human-built ruins or
                > > ancient
                > > > roads that show similar "construction" to this site (in quotes
                > > > because, again, it might well be natural in origin and probably
                is.)
                > > >
                > > > The overall size of the (exposed) portion of the site was
                relatively
                > > > small, but I did not measure it. Trying to recall, I'd guess it
                was
                > > > maybe 15-20 feet wide and maybe 30-50 feet long. Maybe larger.
                The
                > > > stones were of various sizes, some large enough to be
                impossible for
                > > > one man to move them, or even two men to move them, but that's
                just
                > > > rough guesswork.
                > > >
                > > > I did not see anything else nearby: no mounds, pyramids, etc.,
                but
                > > > like I wrote, the surrounding area was dense vegetation and I
                did
                > > not
                > > > explore it at all. My entire focus was on the "structure"
                itself.
                > > Nor
                > > > did I explore the surrounding upland areas.
                > > >
                > > > If it's an artificial structure, somebody put a LOT of effort
                into
                > > > building it and without any sign of modern tools or materials.
                One
                > > > person could NOT have built it. If artificial, the purpose or
                intent
                > > > of the site remains a puzzle and a mystery.
                > > >
                > > > H.W.
                > > >
                > > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
                > > > <beldingenglish@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Herb,
                > > >
                > > > A very well-written web site, "Discovery of an Underwater
                > > Prehistoric
                > > > Road in Northwest Wisconsin?", and the photographs absolutely
                > > knocked
                > > > my socks off.
                > > >
                > > > I moved to Hurley, WI/Ironwood, MI during the late 50's, later
                > > lived
                > > > a short time in Superior, WI. I fished brushy trout streams and
                > > > larger Lake Superior tributaries but never saw anything
                remotely
                > > > resembling what is shown in your photographs.
                > > >
                > > > Except when helping with two Ancient American Magazine
                conferences
                > > > out West late 80's, early 90's when viewing photographs that
                divers
                > > > Dr. William Donato (Washington State)and Frank Joseph had
                depicting
                > > > the underwater "Bimini Road" near the Bahamas. One or two of
                your
                > > > photos reminded me of the precisely fitted rectangular blocks,
                > > though
                > > > yours seem smaller in size.
                > > >
                > > > Herb, about how wide and long were some of the paved surfaces
                you
                > > > uncovered and did any branch off or come to a dead end? Did
                you
                > > see
                > > > anything that resembled burial sites, stone or earthen mounds,
                rock
                > > > piles, stone walls, etc.? Are any of the structures out on
                higher
                > > > ground where logging occurred?
                > > >
                > > > The reason I ask was, that a few years ago a friend was
                surveying
                > > in
                > > > a very remote location northeast of where you are talking about
                and
                > > > discovered (has been ever since trying to what remains of a
                number
                > > of
                > > > old, possibly ancient stone walls on wilderness land off the
                beaten
                > > > path of old logging roads. Every wall also had large,
                surrounding
                > > > stone piles or mounds nearby.
                > > >
                > > > One stone wall, half-covered with earth, grass, overgrown brush
                > > leads
                > > > eerily down and well into a fairly deep lake. I never looked to
                see
                > > > if there was anything like a road under the thick overgrowth
                and
                > > > swampy shoreline. The sites I have investigated with him since
                lie
                > > > within a mile of present day Lake Superior shores. I
                practically
                > > had
                > > > to take a blood oath of secrecy until protection can be given
                to
                > > the
                > > > sites, undoubtedly could never find the areas again. I am
                urging
                > > that
                > > > photographs and carbon-dating be done soon so data and reports
                can
                > > be
                > > > put together and the knowledge put to public use.
                > > >
                > > > It seems wise at this time you are keeping the whereabouts of
                the
                > > > location quiet and I applaud your reverent intent to maintain
                the
                > > > integrity of landscape and waterways, as you portray and
                describe
                > > so
                > > > beautifully on your web sites. Little true wilderness remains
                any
                > > > more. Many of us know of even well-intended diffusionist
                > > researchers
                > > > who have wrought irreversible damage on the landscape searching
                for
                > > > and/or removing artifacts for public and private museums and
                > > displays.
                > > >
                > > > Web sites such as this help many of us continue considering
                > > > possibilites by sharing and putting together clues to this
                larger
                > > > landscape of human habitation, possibly extending our history
                of
                > > > these areas far back not only into early historic but very
                ancient
                > > > past. I hope others enjoy Herb's web sites as much as I and
                perhaps
                > > > will speculate about the photos. Please keep us posted on this
                > > > exploration.
                > > > _________________
                > > >
                > > > I miss hearing recent updates from Georgian member Jamie Clark
                re:
                > > > the hundreds of seemingly old/ancient stone bird heads
                discovered a
                > > > year or two in caves and sinkholes on private property. He
                weemed
                > > to
                > > > be doing an excellent job fielding questions for the landowner
                and
                > > > maintaining anonymity of the site location.
                > > >
                > > > Thanks for keeping us informed, Herb.
                > > >
                > > > Susan English
                > > >
                > > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "herbswoods"
                > > > <herbswoods@> wrote:
                > > >
                > > > Group:
                > > >
                > > > Months ago I posted about an underwater discovery I made last
                summer
                > > > in Northern Wisconsin of a possible underwater road. I promised
                > > > photos and finally found time to whip up a webpage containing a
                few
                > > > images of this unusual feature. Please visit the following link
                and
                > > > tell me what you think. It's still in somewhat rough form, but
                I
                > > > would like your opinion on the following:
                > > >
                > > > Right now I'm calling it a "road" or "causeway." But upon
                > > > consideration I really don't know what it is, so maybe I should
                > > > change it to "possible structure of some kind" that looks like
                an
                > > > ancient road, although it may well have a natural explanation
                as I
                > > > also state.
                > > >
                > > > Thanks!
                > > >
                > > > http://www.atthecreation.com/ROAD/UNDERWATER.RD.html
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • herbswoods
                Steve: Thanks for the thoughtful response. I agree with everything you said and all those things need to be done. Photos #4 & 5 are pretty amazing, esp. #5
                Message 7 of 13 , Jan 15, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  Steve:

                  Thanks for the thoughtful response. I agree with everything you said
                  and all those things need to be done. Photos #4 & 5 are pretty
                  amazing, esp. #5 which shows very precise alignment.

                  You asked if the stucture has a crown to it From the photo it does
                  look like it, but in memory it seems that the structure was level. I
                  could be wrong, however, as I was not there very long. I didn't even
                  try to dislodge or move a block or otherwise test anything. It just
                  didn't occur to me at the time to test anything. All I wanted was to
                  obtain photographs and happily I was able to do.

                  It's probably of natural origin, but it's fun to speculate as the
                  region is a legend-haunted one.

                  HW


                  --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "bigalemc2"
                  <puppet@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Herb -
                  >
                  > Great photos!
                  >
                  > Well, you certainly have turned up something unusual.
                  >
                  > It took me a while to look at these, finally, but I did and am glad to
                  > see them.
                  >
                  > I can hardly add anything to your speculations on them. You've covered
                  > most of the possibilities.
                  >
                  > My POV on the photos is that you have good reason to think they are
                  > man-made. They look more man-made than the Bimini road, to me. The
                  > first photo was narrow enough that I thought it was a wash between
                  > man-made and natural, but in the latter ones the weight of the argument
                  > - IMHO - pushed over to the man-made end of the spectrum.
                  >
                  > Personally, what I like to do is to argue that they are what I DON'T
                  > want them to be, and see if that holds water - without getting bozo with
                  > speculation and diversion from Occam's Razor, which says that the
                  > simpler explanation that covers all the bases is probably the correct
                  > one. More than a few little questions come to mind, so I will lay out
                  > what those are, for what it is worth.
                  >
                  > Numbering the photos from top to bottom #1 through #5:
                  >
                  > #1 questions and notes:
                  >
                  > 1. What kind of stone is it?
                  > 2. Is there any evidence that the stone(s) was not laid there
                  > naturally?
                  > 3. Is the kind of stone present known to crack naturally in straight
                  > lines?
                  > 4. Does this kind of stone also crack naturally in such a
                  > near-rectilinear fashion? Some may, most would not seem to.
                  > 5. This photo does not show right angles on all the cracks.
                  > 6. How uniformly wide are the cracks?
                  >
                  > 7. If they were naturally formed, is there evidence that all the
                  > cracks might have been formed naturally at the same time, under the same
                  > forces or influences?
                  >
                  > 8. How extensive is the entire stone area?
                  > 9. Does the area extend under the aquatic vegetation upstream or
                  > down?
                  > 10. Does the area extend under the river bank?
                  >
                  > 11. Are the edges of the entire stone area natural-looking?
                  > 12. How level is the top surface?
                  > 13. How deep are the stones set into the river bottom?
                  > 14. Is there more than one layer? (This mirrors your idea that they
                  > may be the roof of a structure.)
                  >
                  > 15. What underlies the stone area?
                  >
                  > 16. Does the alignment follow along the bottom of the river bed?
                  > Across it? At an angle?
                  > Some of these are trite questions, but these and more need to be asked
                  > to determine if the formation is natural.
                  >
                  > Photo #2 and #3: I do not see any stone in those.
                  >
                  > Photo #4 - all the same questions and comments apply as to photo #1,
                  > plus:
                  >
                  > 1. This one raised my eyebrows. A LOT.
                  > 2. This pattern would be difficult to argue as natural
                  > 3. The right angles are quite evident
                  > 4. The alignment of the cross joints is amazing if naturally formed
                  > 5. The two narrower stones have nearly aligned cracks on both sides,
                  > which make it hard to argue for natural formation
                  > 6. The crack between the larger stone and the one 'above' it seems
                  > not to have parallel sides, which would tend to argue it is naturally
                  > formed
                  > 7. The top surface does seem to be essentially flat, if not level
                  > Photo #5 - all the same questions and comments apply as to photo #1 and
                  > #4, plus:
                  >
                  > 1. The pattern is definitely rectilinear
                  > 2. This seems to suggest a long, linear pattern to the area, similar
                  > to a road or a paved ford
                  > 3. Are the long cracks parallel? If so, to what degree?
                  > 4. The 'roadway' seems to be crowned. Is that an illusion or true?
                  > 5. One stone in the top of the photo does not match up
                  crack-to-crack
                  > with those around it, in the simplest rectilinear pattern. The mating
                  > one on the right is actually two stones. Does this occur elsewhere?
                  > (This seems to suggest that natural forces did not crack the two on the
                  > right, since the natural force would also have been trying to crack the
                  > single one, too.)
                  >
                  > Photos #4 and #5 are pretty amazing.
                  >
                  > Old maps would seem to be the order of the day, to see if any show any
                  > road here known to early settlers or to known industries in the area.
                  >
                  > You have to show that these are not known to anyone at any earlier time.
                  > I suggest reading this book: The Island of Seven Cities: Where the
                  > Chinese Settled When They Discovered America
                  >
                  <http://www.amazon.com/Island-Seven-Cities-Chinese-Discovered/dp/0312362\
                  > 056/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200295531&sr=8-1> . The
                  > author went through the same kind of proving out - to himself - that
                  > your site will pretty much need to do. He assumed that the site he'd
                  > found was known to earlier settlers, then exhausted every one of those
                  > possibilities. What was left was not what he had ever considered
                  > possible, but it turned out to be the probable answer.
                  >
                  > I do not profess to have covered all the possible questions, nor to have
                  > any great insight into anything about this. If any of the above helps
                  > you in your thinking, Herb, go for it.
                  >
                  > Steve Garcia
                  >
                • Susan
                  Steve, Excellent letter you wrote to Herb...and you are right that Herb s photos look more man-made that the Bimini Road. Herb, I d probably not even spend
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jan 15, 2008
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                    Steve,

                    Excellent letter you wrote to Herb...and you are right that Herb's
                    photos look more man-made that the Bimini Road. Herb, I'd probably
                    not even spend much time looking at Bimini. That was the only
                    underwater I'd seen I felt was similar.

                    The little archeological web site I sent, and even moreso, Steve's
                    astute ideas and insights in his post below have provided a finer
                    knowledge base of things to look for than hours of web sites, old
                    literature I glanced at. Likely divers David Hatcher-Childress, Frank
                    Joseph, and Wayne have sites more similar to those in your photo.I
                    just sent them your links, too. All of these fellows are friends yet
                    also complimentary magazine competitors (Ancient American and
                    Adventures Unlimited), and I hope will watch the site and do a bit of
                    research along with those here who are intriqued, and especially be
                    following Herb's progress, come Spring.

                    Susan

                    --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "bigalemc2"
                    <puppet@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Herb -
                    >
                    > Great photos!
                    >
                    > Well, you certainly have turned up something unusual.
                    >
                    > It took me a while to look at these, finally, but I did and am glad
                    to
                    > see them.
                    >
                    > I can hardly add anything to your speculations on them. You've
                    covered
                    > most of the possibilities.
                    >
                    > My POV on the photos is that you have good reason to think they are
                    > man-made. They look more man-made than the Bimini road, to me. The
                    > first photo was narrow enough that I thought it was a wash between
                    > man-made and natural, but in the latter ones the weight of the
                    argument
                    > - IMHO - pushed over to the man-made end of the spectrum.
                    >
                    > Personally, what I like to do is to argue that they are what I DON'T
                    > want them to be, and see if that holds water - without getting bozo
                    with
                    > speculation and diversion from Occam's Razor, which says that the
                    > simpler explanation that covers all the bases is probably the
                    correct
                    > one. More than a few little questions come to mind, so I will lay
                    out
                    > what those are, for what it is worth.
                    >
                    > Numbering the photos from top to bottom #1 through #5:
                    >
                    > #1 questions and notes:
                    >
                    > 1. What kind of stone is it?
                    > 2. Is there any evidence that the stone(s) was not laid there
                    > naturally?
                    > 3. Is the kind of stone present known to crack naturally in
                    straight
                    > lines?
                    > 4. Does this kind of stone also crack naturally in such a
                    > near-rectilinear fashion? Some may, most would not seem to.
                    > 5. This photo does not show right angles on all the cracks.
                    > 6. How uniformly wide are the cracks?
                    >
                    > 7. If they were naturally formed, is there evidence that all the
                    > cracks might have been formed naturally at the same time, under the
                    same
                    > forces or influences?
                    >
                    > 8. How extensive is the entire stone area?
                    > 9. Does the area extend under the aquatic vegetation upstream or
                    > down?
                    > 10. Does the area extend under the river bank?
                    >
                    > 11. Are the edges of the entire stone area natural-looking?
                    > 12. How level is the top surface?
                    > 13. How deep are the stones set into the river bottom?
                    > 14. Is there more than one layer? (This mirrors your idea that
                    they
                    > may be the roof of a structure.)
                    >
                    > 15. What underlies the stone area?
                    >
                    > 16. Does the alignment follow along the bottom of the river bed?
                    > Across it? At an angle?
                    > Some of these are trite questions, but these and more need to be
                    asked
                    > to determine if the formation is natural.
                    >
                    > Photo #2 and #3: I do not see any stone in those.
                    >
                    > Photo #4 - all the same questions and comments apply as to photo #1,
                    > plus:
                    >
                    > 1. This one raised my eyebrows. A LOT.
                    > 2. This pattern would be difficult to argue as natural
                    > 3. The right angles are quite evident
                    > 4. The alignment of the cross joints is amazing if naturally
                    formed
                    > 5. The two narrower stones have nearly aligned cracks on both
                    sides,
                    > which make it hard to argue for natural formation
                    > 6. The crack between the larger stone and the one 'above' it
                    seems
                    > not to have parallel sides, which would tend to argue it is
                    naturally
                    > formed
                    > 7. The top surface does seem to be essentially flat, if not
                    level
                    > Photo #5 - all the same questions and comments apply as to photo #1
                    and
                    > #4, plus:
                    >
                    > 1. The pattern is definitely rectilinear
                    > 2. This seems to suggest a long, linear pattern to the area,
                    similar
                    > to a road or a paved ford
                    > 3. Are the long cracks parallel? If so, to what degree?
                    > 4. The 'roadway' seems to be crowned. Is that an illusion or
                    true?
                    > 5. One stone in the top of the photo does not match up crack-to-
                    crack
                    > with those around it, in the simplest rectilinear pattern. The
                    mating
                    > one on the right is actually two stones. Does this occur
                    elsewhere?
                    > (This seems to suggest that natural forces did not crack the two on
                    the
                    > right, since the natural force would also have been trying to crack
                    the
                    > single one, too.)
                    >
                    > Photos #4 and #5 are pretty amazing.
                    >
                    > Old maps would seem to be the order of the day, to see if any show
                    any
                    > road here known to early settlers or to known industries in the
                    area.
                    >
                    > You have to show that these are not known to anyone at any earlier
                    time.
                    > I suggest reading this book: The Island of Seven Cities: Where the
                    > Chinese Settled When They Discovered America
                    > <http://www.amazon.com/Island-Seven-Cities-Chinese-
                    Discovered/dp/0312362\
                    > 056/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200295531&sr=8-1> . The
                    > author went through the same kind of proving out - to himself - that
                    > your site will pretty much need to do. He assumed that the site
                    he'd
                    > found was known to earlier settlers, then exhausted every one of
                    those
                    > possibilities. What was left was not what he had ever considered
                    > possible, but it turned out to be the probable answer.
                    >
                    > I do not profess to have covered all the possible questions, nor to
                    have
                    > any great insight into anything about this. If any of the above
                    helps
                    > you in your thinking, Herb, go for it.
                    >
                    > Steve Garcia
                    >
                  • Stephen Garcia
                    Susan - I noted the comment by Chris and that particular photo, too, but - maybe it is my old fogy eyes - all I see is a long leaf curled up. I saw the round
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jan 15, 2008
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                      Susan -

                      I noted the comment by Chris and that particular photo, too, but - maybe it is my old fogy eyes - all I see is a long leaf curled up.  I saw the round thing and wanted to see something there, but that is all I see.  Is it actually something IN the stone?  Or is it an optical illusion?

                      I mean, it seems essentially the same color as the undersides of the other leaves in the photo.

                      At the same time, I DID wonder why Herb took the picture.  If not for that, then what for?  My only guess was to show the tangle he had to swim through.

                      But if it is a really something in the stone, that is, of course, a different story.

                      ***
                      Okay:  I saved the  image to my hard drive, then opened it in a graphics program and zoomed in on that 'circle'.  It appears to me to be a loop in a continuation - the end - of the long, slender leaf that stretches diagonally across the image in a slightly sinuous pattern from the lower left.  I can even follow the leaf between the two - the sinuous part and the loop at the end.

                      There even seems to be another leaf below it.

                      Here is the enlargement of that area:




                      Somebody tell me I am wrong...

                      Herb?  Did you actually see something there?  Was this something on the photo when you saw it later?

                      Steve Garcia



                      Susan wrote:

                      Herb, Steve, and All,

                      When I first opened the email reply from Christopher it had on the
                      page one of your little photos. Now it isn't and it boggles my mind.
                      But I see what he was referreing to. Maybe Steve Garcia does, too.
                      He is an engineer and long into ancient studies. Steve is a longtime
                      personal friend of Christopher Dunn, Hatcher Childress and some of
                      their associates while I am more an acquaintence through conferences.

                      Do you fellows and members at this message board see the circle
                      within the green reedy photo on Herb's new web page (within the
                      paragraph "That day, chilled by the...")?

                      Dunn had written..."This photograph has a round depression in it that
                      looks remarkably precise. Can you find out more? Thanks, Chris"
                      __





                    • bigalemc2
                      Herb - Yeah, you got an enigma on your hands, Dude. Good find! Yes, it might be natural, but I am leaning to it being something man made from a relatively
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jan 15, 2008
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                        Herb -

                        Yeah, you got an enigma on your hands, Dude. Good find!

                        Yes, it might be natural, but I am leaning to it being something man
                        made from a relatively recent time period. To me, that is the Occam's
                        razor on this. It makes what the images show make sense in the simplest
                        way. Oh, it would be lovely if it is something from the copper age,
                        but. . .

                        From the images, it would certainly seem to be man made, rather than
                        naturally occurring. Those cracks being at 90 degrees (mostly) is one
                        point in favor of man made. Nature tends to not do things in 90-degree
                        patterns - though one can't rule it out.

                        That non-continuous crack in that one spot seem to rule out nature; if
                        there were stresses in the stone that caused it to crack along some
                        crystalline fault (like a diamond would do), I would expect the crack to
                        extend across the entirety, IMHO. I can speculate on ways that the
                        break wouldn't be fully across the area, but they have problems in
                        themselves, so I threw them out of the argument.

                        I think it best to find old records, preferably maps. If man made, this
                        will show up there. No one builds without leaving some record. Roads
                        of whatever kind are labor intensive, so no one would go to that trouble
                        and then not put it on a map.

                        I'd recommend also to see how long it extends, as soon as possible. If
                        it is a road, there will be much more of it. If it is a stone bottom
                        put in for a post-Columbian ford, then there should be some remnants of
                        a real road on both sides of the river. It may not appear obvious right
                        near the bank, due to erosion, occasional flooding, etc., so looking
                        many feet away from the banks might give the best results.

                        All this is speculation and - like your thoughts on the web page - can
                        get you going in all kinds of directions. A few more facts can cut that
                        all way down. The best way to narrow down the possibilities is to go
                        get more facts. Take more photos, make some measurements, search under
                        and around the vegetation, blah, blah, blah.

                        Time to do some detective work...

                        Steve
                        --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "herbswoods"
                        <herbswoods@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Steve:
                        >
                        > Thanks for the thoughtful response. I agree with everything you said
                        > and all those things need to be done. Photos #4 & 5 are pretty
                        > amazing, esp. #5 which shows very precise alignment.
                        >
                        > You asked if the stucture has a crown to it From the photo it does
                        > look like it, but in memory it seems that the structure was level. I
                        > could be wrong, however, as I was not there very long. I didn't even
                        > try to dislodge or move a block or otherwise test anything. It just
                        > didn't occur to me at the time to test anything. All I wanted was to
                        > obtain photographs and happily I was able to do.
                        >
                        > It's probably of natural origin, but it's fun to speculate as the
                        > region is a legend-haunted one.
                        >
                        > HW
                      • Susan
                        Steve Garcia., Herb, and All I see from the enlargement in your (Steve G. s) email what you are referring to and perhaps send the enlargement to Herb s
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jan 15, 2008
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                          Steve Garcia., Herb, and All

                          I see from the enlargement in your (Steve G.'s) email what you are
                          referring to and perhaps send the enlargement to Herb's emailbox, too.
                          With the imprint of the green into the circle on the unenlarged photo
                          on Herb's web site, I am wondering if Herb might have laid a circular
                          tripod or other poles into silt/mud into the river bottom at that
                          spot to cause the imbedded circular 'ring' since Herb has the photos
                          and was there. Herb, is there a lot of silt in parts of the river,
                          and what do you think? I was snorkeling at Rock Lake near Madison
                          years ago after a sweat lodge by a bunch of New Agers after reading
                          Frank Jospeh's Pyramids of Rock Lake book. Deep, deep silt, and he
                          speaks of the difficulty of investigating rock or any other
                          structures beneath deep, still water such as lakes, esp. in
                          agricultural or urban areas.

                          Sorry I am posting so much but at a dormant time away
                          from 'fieldwork' and most of us are up at least to our knees in snow,
                          isn't this armchair line of inquiry interesting? Remember that some
                          of this group's data can be applied to other, future leads and
                          avenues of investigation.

                          Welcome new member Richard from MA (Maine or Massechucetts?)

                          Susan

                          --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Garcia
                          <puppet@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Susan -
                          >
                          > I noted the comment by Chris and that particular photo, too, but -
                          maybe
                          > it is my old fogy eyes - all I see is a long leaf curled up. I saw
                          the
                          > round thing and wanted to see something there, but that is all I
                          see.
                          > Is it actually something IN the stone? Or is it an optical
                          illusion?
                          >
                          > I mean, it seems essentially the same color as the undersides of
                          the
                          > other leaves in the photo.
                          >
                          > At the same time, I DID wonder why Herb took the picture. If not
                          for
                          > that, then what for? My only guess was to show the tangle he had
                          to
                          > swim through.
                          >
                          > But if it is a really something in the stone, that is, of course, a
                          > different story.
                          >
                          > ***
                          > Okay: I saved the image to my hard drive, then opened it in a
                          graphics
                          > program and zoomed in on that 'circle'. It appears to me to be a
                          loop
                          > in a continuation - the end - of the long, slender leaf that
                          stretches
                          > diagonally across the image in a slightly sinuous pattern from the
                          lower
                          > left. I can even follow the leaf between the two - the sinuous
                          part and
                          > the loop at the end.
                          >
                          > There even seems to be another leaf below it.
                          >
                          > Here is the enlargement of that area:
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Somebody tell me I am wrong...
                          >
                          > Herb? Did you actually see something there? Was this something on
                          the
                          > photo when you saw it later?
                          >
                          > Steve Garcia
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Susan wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Herb, Steve, and All,
                          > >
                          > > When I first opened the email reply from Christopher it had on the
                          > > page one of your little photos. Now it isn't and it boggles my
                          mind.
                          > > But I see what he was referreing to. Maybe Steve Garcia does, too.
                          > > He is an engineer and long into ancient studies. Steve is a
                          longtime
                          > > personal friend of Christopher Dunn, Hatcher Childress and some of
                          > > their associates while I am more an acquaintence through
                          conferences.
                          > >
                          > > Do you fellows and members at this message board see the circle
                          > > within the green reedy photo on Herb's new web page (within the
                          > > paragraph "That day, chilled by the...")?
                          > >
                          > > Dunn had written..."This photograph has a round depression in it
                          that
                          > > looks remarkably precise. Can you find out more? Thanks, Chris"
                          > > __
                          > >
                          >
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