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Re: Underwater "road" or "structure"?

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  • Susan
    Herb, A very well-written web site, Discovery of an Underwater Prehistoric Road in Northwest Wisconsin? , and the photographs absolutely knocked my socks off.
    Message 1 of 13 , Jan 12, 2008
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      Herb,

      A very well-written web site, "Discovery of an Underwater Prehistoric
      Road in Northwest Wisconsin?", and the photographs absolutely knocked
      my socks off.

      I moved to Hurley, WI/Ironwood, MI during the late 50's, later lived
      a short time in Superior, WI. I fished brushy trout streams and
      larger Lake Superior tributaries but never saw anything remotely
      resembling what is shown in your photographs.

      Except when helping with two Ancient American Magazine conferences
      out West late 80's, early 90's when viewing photographs that divers
      Dr. William Donato (Washington State)and Frank Joseph had depicting
      the underwater "Bimini Road" near the Bahamas. One or two of your
      photos reminded me of the precisely fitted rectangular blocks, though
      yours seem smaller in size.

      Herb, about how wide and long were some of the paved surfaces you
      uncovered and did any branch off or come to a dead end? Did you see
      anything that resembled burial sites, stone or earthen mounds, rock
      piles, stone walls, etc.? Are any of the structures out on higher
      ground where logging occurred?

      The reason I ask was, that a few years ago a friend was surveying in
      a very remote location northeast of where you are talking about and
      discovered (has been ever since trying to what remains of a number of
      old, possibly ancient stone walls on wilderness land off the beaten
      path of old logging roads. Every wall also had large, surrounding
      stone piles or mounds nearby.

      One stone wall, half-covered with earth, grass, overgrown brush leads
      eerily down and well into a fairly deep lake. I never looked to see
      if there was anything like a road under the thick overgrowth and
      swampy shoreline. The sites I have investigated with him since lie
      within a mile of present day Lake Superior shores. I practically had
      to take a blood oath of secrecy until protection can be given to the
      sites, undoubtedly could never find the areas again. I am urging that
      photographs and carbon-dating be done soon so data and reports can be
      put together and the knowledge put to public use.

      It seems wise at this time you are keeping the whereabouts of the
      location quiet and I applaud your reverent intent to maintain the
      integrity of landscape and waterways, as you portray and describe so
      beautifully on your web sites. Little true wilderness remains any
      more. Many of us know of even well-intended diffusionist researchers
      who have wrought irreversible damage on the landscape searching for
      and/or removing artifacts for public and private museums and displays.

      Web sites such as this help many of us continue considering
      possibilites by sharing and putting together clues to this larger
      landscape of human habitation, possibly extending our history of
      these areas far back not only into early historic but very ancient
      past. I hope others enjoy Herb's web sites as much as I and perhaps
      will speculate about the photos. Please keep us posted on this
      exploration.
      _________________

      I miss hearing recent updates from Georgian member Jamie Clark re:
      the hundreds of seemingly old/ancient stone bird heads discovered a
      year or two in caves and sinkholes on private property. He weemed to
      be doing an excellent job fielding questions for the landowner and
      maintaining anonymity of the site location.

      Thanks for keeping us informed, Herb.

      Susan English

      --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "herbswoods"
      <herbswoods@...> wrote:
      >
      > Group:
      >
      > Months ago I posted about an underwater discovery I made last summer
      > in Northern Wisconsin of a possible underwater road. I promised
      photos
      > and finally found time to whip up a webpage containing a few images
      of
      > this unusual feature. Please visit the following link and tell me
      what
      > you think. It's still in somewhat rough form, but I would like your
      > opinion on the following:
      >
      > Right now I'm calling it a "road" or "causeway." But upon
      > consideration I really don't know what it is, so maybe I should
      change
      > it to "possible structure of some kind" that looks like an ancient
      > road, although it may well have a natural explanation as I also
      state.
      >
      > Thanks!
      >
      > http://www.atthecreation.com/ROAD/UNDERWATER.RD.html
      >
    • herbswoods
      Susan and others: I ve changed the wording in the webpage from road to structure because really: What is it? I don t know the answer; perhaps other members
      Message 2 of 13 , Jan 13, 2008
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        Susan and others:

        I've changed the wording in the webpage from "road" to "structure"
        because really: What is it?

        I don't know the answer; perhaps other members can give their opinions
        and ideas.

        Upon looking at the photos some more, it occurs to me that if it is
        artificial in origin, it could be the TOP of a much larger and mostly
        buried structure. That is almost too extreme a position to take, but
        the possibility cannot be ignored.

        What I need to find are photos of actual human-built ruins or ancient
        roads that show similar "construction" to this site (in quotes
        because, again, it might well be natural in origin and probably is.)

        The overall size of the (exposed) portion of the site was relatively
        small, but I did not measure it. Trying to recall, I'd guess it was
        maybe 15-20 feet wide and maybe 30-50 feet long. Maybe larger. The
        stones were of various sizes, some large enough to be impossible for
        one man to move them, or even two men to move them, but that's just
        rough guesswork.

        I did not see anything else nearby: no mounds, pyramids, etc., but
        like I wrote, the surrounding area was dense vegetation and I did not
        explore it at all. My entire focus was on the "structure" itself. Nor
        did I explore the surrounding upland areas.

        If it's an artificial structure, somebody put a LOT of effort into
        building it and without any sign of modern tools or materials. One
        person could NOT have built it. If artificial, the purpose or intent
        of the site remains a puzzle and a mystery.

        H.W.



        --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
        <beldingenglish@...> wrote:
        >
        > Herb,
        >
        > A very well-written web site, "Discovery of an Underwater Prehistoric
        > Road in Northwest Wisconsin?", and the photographs absolutely knocked
        > my socks off.
        >
        > I moved to Hurley, WI/Ironwood, MI during the late 50's, later lived
        > a short time in Superior, WI. I fished brushy trout streams and
        > larger Lake Superior tributaries but never saw anything remotely
        > resembling what is shown in your photographs.
        >
        > Except when helping with two Ancient American Magazine conferences
        > out West late 80's, early 90's when viewing photographs that divers
        > Dr. William Donato (Washington State)and Frank Joseph had depicting
        > the underwater "Bimini Road" near the Bahamas. One or two of your
        > photos reminded me of the precisely fitted rectangular blocks, though
        > yours seem smaller in size.
        >
        > Herb, about how wide and long were some of the paved surfaces you
        > uncovered and did any branch off or come to a dead end? Did you see
        > anything that resembled burial sites, stone or earthen mounds, rock
        > piles, stone walls, etc.? Are any of the structures out on higher
        > ground where logging occurred?
        >
        > The reason I ask was, that a few years ago a friend was surveying in
        > a very remote location northeast of where you are talking about and
        > discovered (has been ever since trying to what remains of a number of
        > old, possibly ancient stone walls on wilderness land off the beaten
        > path of old logging roads. Every wall also had large, surrounding
        > stone piles or mounds nearby.
        >
        > One stone wall, half-covered with earth, grass, overgrown brush leads
        > eerily down and well into a fairly deep lake. I never looked to see
        > if there was anything like a road under the thick overgrowth and
        > swampy shoreline. The sites I have investigated with him since lie
        > within a mile of present day Lake Superior shores. I practically had
        > to take a blood oath of secrecy until protection can be given to the
        > sites, undoubtedly could never find the areas again. I am urging that
        > photographs and carbon-dating be done soon so data and reports can be
        > put together and the knowledge put to public use.
        >
        > It seems wise at this time you are keeping the whereabouts of the
        > location quiet and I applaud your reverent intent to maintain the
        > integrity of landscape and waterways, as you portray and describe so
        > beautifully on your web sites. Little true wilderness remains any
        > more. Many of us know of even well-intended diffusionist researchers
        > who have wrought irreversible damage on the landscape searching for
        > and/or removing artifacts for public and private museums and displays.
        >
        > Web sites such as this help many of us continue considering
        > possibilites by sharing and putting together clues to this larger
        > landscape of human habitation, possibly extending our history of
        > these areas far back not only into early historic but very ancient
        > past. I hope others enjoy Herb's web sites as much as I and perhaps
        > will speculate about the photos. Please keep us posted on this
        > exploration.
        > _________________
        >
        > I miss hearing recent updates from Georgian member Jamie Clark re:
        > the hundreds of seemingly old/ancient stone bird heads discovered a
        > year or two in caves and sinkholes on private property. He weemed to
        > be doing an excellent job fielding questions for the landowner and
        > maintaining anonymity of the site location.
        >
        > Thanks for keeping us informed, Herb.
        >
        > Susan English
        >
        > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "herbswoods"
        > <herbswoods@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Group:
        > >
        > > Months ago I posted about an underwater discovery I made last summer
        > > in Northern Wisconsin of a possible underwater road. I promised
        > photos
        > > and finally found time to whip up a webpage containing a few images
        > of
        > > this unusual feature. Please visit the following link and tell me
        > what
        > > you think. It's still in somewhat rough form, but I would like your
        > > opinion on the following:
        > >
        > > Right now I'm calling it a "road" or "causeway." But upon
        > > consideration I really don't know what it is, so maybe I should
        > change
        > > it to "possible structure of some kind" that looks like an ancient
        > > road, although it may well have a natural explanation as I also
        > state.
        > >
        > > Thanks!
        > >
        > > http://www.atthecreation.com/ROAD/UNDERWATER.RD.html
        > >
        >
      • Susan
        Herb, Last night I forwarded your website to a friend, Christopher Dunn whom I met through the World Explorer s Club in Kempton, Illinois (David Hatcher
        Message 3 of 13 , Jan 13, 2008
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          Herb,

          Last night I forwarded your website to a friend, Christopher Dunn
          whom I met through the World Explorer's Club in Kempton, Illinois
          (David Hatcher Childress who many feel is Thor Heyerdahl's (Kon Tiki)
          protege.) He and Dunn are close, longtime friends, as is engineer
          Steve Garcia from Ancient Waterways Society, who also expressed
          interest in your findings to me via email last evening.

          Dunn is a member of the impressive Board of Directors for the Great
          Pyramid of Giza Research Association (http://www.gizapyramid.com/)and
          has published a best-sellling book on the Great Pyramid, The Giza
          Power Plant-Technologies of Ancient Egypt". Of numerous magazine
          articles, one you might be particularly interested in is "Advanced
          Machining in Ancient Egypt".

          Christopher also drove over from his home in Danville, Illinois to
          the Ohio AAAPF/Thor/Midwest Epigraphic Society Conference last
          October as one of our speakers. If you or other Ancient Waterways
          Society members want to read more about Dunn, his web site is:

          http://www.gizapyramid.com/BIO-Dunn.htm

          I and many with whom I am affiliated have found Dunn to carry the
          utmost integrity, both personally and professionally.

          Anyway, I knew he would be interested in Herb's photographs and web
          site, so sent a note to him last night. This morning received the
          following reply w/inclusion of one of the green weedy photos. See if
          any of you can spot what he is referring to; I'd not noticed it, but
          can see the circle below the weeds. Herb, can you find that exact
          site again in your excursion back there next spring???

          Susan

          -----Original Message-----
          From: Chris Dunn <cdunn1546@...>
          To: SuzEnglish@...
          Sent: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 12:13 pm
          Subject: RE: Check out ancient_waterways_society : Message:
          Underwater "road" or "structur

          Hi Susan,

          Thanks for the links, they are very interesting. This photograph has
          a round depression in it that looks remarkably precise. Can you find
          out more?

          Thanks,

          Chris

          ------------------------------------------------------------
          From: SuzEnglish@... [mailto:SuzEnglish@...]
          Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 7:42 AM
          To: CDunn1546@...
          Subject: Check out ancient_waterways_society : Message:
          Underwater "road" or "structur

          Chris,

          Below is a web site w/underwater photos from one of our Ancient
          Waterways Society members (Herb Wagner) sent yesterday. He has
          discovered what has the appearance of a road in an extremely remote
          are of NW Wisconsin, near a Lake Superior to Mississippi River
          tributary. He is leaving it up to further investigation whether or
          not the site is natural or man-made. Many of us who lived (and trout
          fished) in the area for decades has ever seen or heard about anything
          like that up there before. The only other photos that seem to
          resemble it (to me) are the "Bimini Road" in the Bahamas, though on a
          much larger scale of stone 'block'.

          He has a number of excellent web sites you might enjoy, esp. if you
          and your family plan a trip up into that area (not far from Bayfield
          and the Apostle Islands, then westward along Lake Superior into the
          Porcupine Mts. and Keweenaw County Copper Country. Herb's
          Wisconsin's Ancient Copper Mines web site has many of us including
          the NW region of Wisconsin as also a significant part of ancient
          copper trade, and might prove likely to have been a significant
          entrance to a direct trade route to the Mississippi.

          If you see anything that resembles the appearance of something man-
          made, please let the group or Herb Wagner know. Or anyone who knows
          how one determines dating and whether or not stone structures as such
          are natural or man-made.

          Steve Garcia is also one of the 20 members of our group, as is
          engineer Vince Barrows who spoke on Cahokia at the Ohio conference
          and has been doing a lot of preservation of Monks Mound and advocacy
          there.

          I know you all are busy with careers and your own research, books,
          family etc.

          Herb's photos and web sites might intrigue you.

          Thanks again,
          Susan

          ________________
          Click here: ancient_waterways_society : Message: Underwater "road"
          or "structure"?

          "Group,
          Months ago I posted about an underwater discovery I made last summer
          in Northern Wisconsin of a possible underwater road. I promised
          photos and finally found time to whip up a webpage containing a few
          images of this unusual feature. Please visit the following link and
          tell me what you think. It's still in somewhat rough form, but I
          would like your opinion on the following:

          Right now I'm calling it a "road" or "causeway." But upon
          consideration I really don't know what it is, so maybe I should
          change it to "possible structure of some kind" that looks like an
          ancient road, although it may well have a natural explanation as I
          also state.

          Thanks!
          [Herb]

          http://www.atthecreation.com/ROAD/UNDERWATER.RD.html

          --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "herbswoods"
          <herbswoods@...> wrote:

          Susan and others:

          I've changed the wording in the webpage from "road" to "structure"
          because really: What is it?

          I don't know the answer; perhaps other members can give their
          opinions and ideas.

          Upon looking at the photos some more, it occurs to me that if it is
          artificial in origin, it could be the TOP of a much larger and mostly
          buried structure. That is almost too extreme a position to take, but
          the possibility cannot be ignored.

          What I need to find are photos of actual human-built ruins or ancient
          roads that show similar "construction" to this site (in quotes
          because, again, it might well be natural in origin and probably is.)

          The overall size of the (exposed) portion of the site was relatively
          small, but I did not measure it. Trying to recall, I'd guess it was
          maybe 15-20 feet wide and maybe 30-50 feet long. Maybe larger. The
          stones were of various sizes, some large enough to be impossible for
          one man to move them, or even two men to move them, but that's just
          rough guesswork.

          I did not see anything else nearby: no mounds, pyramids, etc., but
          like I wrote, the surrounding area was dense vegetation and I did not
          explore it at all. My entire focus was on the "structure" itself. Nor
          did I explore the surrounding upland areas.

          If it's an artificial structure, somebody put a LOT of effort into
          building it and without any sign of modern tools or materials. One
          person could NOT have built it. If artificial, the purpose or intent
          of the site remains a puzzle and a mystery.

          H.W.

          --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
          <beldingenglish@> wrote:

          Herb,

          A very well-written web site, "Discovery of an Underwater Prehistoric
          Road in Northwest Wisconsin?", and the photographs absolutely knocked
          my socks off.

          I moved to Hurley, WI/Ironwood, MI during the late 50's, later lived
          a short time in Superior, WI. I fished brushy trout streams and
          larger Lake Superior tributaries but never saw anything remotely
          resembling what is shown in your photographs.

          Except when helping with two Ancient American Magazine conferences
          out West late 80's, early 90's when viewing photographs that divers
          Dr. William Donato (Washington State)and Frank Joseph had depicting
          the underwater "Bimini Road" near the Bahamas. One or two of your
          photos reminded me of the precisely fitted rectangular blocks, though
          yours seem smaller in size.

          Herb, about how wide and long were some of the paved surfaces you
          uncovered and did any branch off or come to a dead end? Did you see
          anything that resembled burial sites, stone or earthen mounds, rock
          piles, stone walls, etc.? Are any of the structures out on higher
          ground where logging occurred?

          The reason I ask was, that a few years ago a friend was surveying in
          a very remote location northeast of where you are talking about and
          discovered (has been ever since trying to what remains of a number of
          old, possibly ancient stone walls on wilderness land off the beaten
          path of old logging roads. Every wall also had large, surrounding
          stone piles or mounds nearby.

          One stone wall, half-covered with earth, grass, overgrown brush leads
          eerily down and well into a fairly deep lake. I never looked to see
          if there was anything like a road under the thick overgrowth and
          swampy shoreline. The sites I have investigated with him since lie
          within a mile of present day Lake Superior shores. I practically had
          to take a blood oath of secrecy until protection can be given to the
          sites, undoubtedly could never find the areas again. I am urging that
          photographs and carbon-dating be done soon so data and reports can be
          put together and the knowledge put to public use.

          It seems wise at this time you are keeping the whereabouts of the
          location quiet and I applaud your reverent intent to maintain the
          integrity of landscape and waterways, as you portray and describe so
          beautifully on your web sites. Little true wilderness remains any
          more. Many of us know of even well-intended diffusionist researchers
          who have wrought irreversible damage on the landscape searching for
          and/or removing artifacts for public and private museums and displays.

          Web sites such as this help many of us continue considering
          possibilites by sharing and putting together clues to this larger
          landscape of human habitation, possibly extending our history of
          these areas far back not only into early historic but very ancient
          past. I hope others enjoy Herb's web sites as much as I and perhaps
          will speculate about the photos. Please keep us posted on this
          exploration.
          _________________

          I miss hearing recent updates from Georgian member Jamie Clark re:
          the hundreds of seemingly old/ancient stone bird heads discovered a
          year or two in caves and sinkholes on private property. He weemed to
          be doing an excellent job fielding questions for the landowner and
          maintaining anonymity of the site location.

          Thanks for keeping us informed, Herb.

          Susan English

          --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "herbswoods"
          <herbswoods@> wrote:

          Group:

          Months ago I posted about an underwater discovery I made last summer
          in Northern Wisconsin of a possible underwater road. I promised
          photos and finally found time to whip up a webpage containing a few
          images of this unusual feature. Please visit the following link and
          tell me what you think. It's still in somewhat rough form, but I
          would like your opinion on the following:

          Right now I'm calling it a "road" or "causeway." But upon
          consideration I really don't know what it is, so maybe I should
          change it to "possible structure of some kind" that looks like an
          ancient road, although it may well have a natural explanation as I
          also state.

          Thanks!

          http://www.atthecreation.com/ROAD/UNDERWATER.RD.html
        • Susan
          Herb, All, I am going to throw in a couple of web links here in response to your inquiry about possible links on ancient roads, ruins, etc. that relate to this
          Message 4 of 13 , Jan 13, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            Herb, All,

            I am going to throw in a couple of web links here in response to your
            inquiry about possible links on ancient roads, ruins, etc. that
            relate to this fun new NW Wisconsin mystery.

            1. I will let those interestedeted Google "Bimini Road" to check out
            photos...not very similar but a couple of photos I recall seeing a
            few years ago showed a more similar stretch of rectangular stones to
            Herb's photos. Rick "Oz" in our group interviewd William Donato on
            Oopa Loopa Cafe radio recently. I was on a Red Cross mission then
            and have not listened to the program from the archives. But Donato
            and Frank Joseph from Ancient American are both divers, longtime
            friends. I mentioned before Bill was at at least two Ancient American
            conference years ago out West; I saw some of his photos of Bimini
            then.

            But possibly more interesting, Herb and those of you who will be
            following his progress is the following article, listed under the
            title Ancient Archaeology, "BIMINI ROAD, ANALYSIS" from A SCIENTIFIC
            SELECTION OF WEB INFORMATION ON ANCIENT UNDERWATER RUINS AND OTHER
            REMARKABLE FINDS:

            http://www.altarcheologie.nl/index.html?
            underwater_ruins/bimini/bimini_analysis.htm

            Starts very interestingly: "Firstly one should not be confused by the
            word "road", this is only a convenient looking name given by the
            first discoverers. One should see the road initially just as what it
            is: a collection of stones. The question is: are the shape and
            arrangement of these stones such that they are artificial, made by
            man. The usual arguments for this are: regularity, straight lines
            (not circles, nature is pretty good at making circles), some kinds of
            symmetry (not all: natural crystals can also be symmetric, but they
            are usually not bigger than a decimeter), and the like."...

            I will let you read the rest. The article refers to an ocean rock
            structure but likely the same rules apply. (I feel as though I am in
            school again).

            2. Possibly not relative, but something to consider since the article
            stems from an area in close approximation to Herb's tributary of Lake
            Superior re: a wooden crib from the 1870's that washed up on a Duluth
            shore. It mentions something about a "stone road on top". To me, all
            diagrams, photos of rocks don't show anything that even resembles the
            precision of Herb's underwater pattern of large rectangular stones.

            Article is called "Duluth Chapter Helps With Washed Up Crib":

            http://www.glsps.org/crib_project/duluth_crib_project.htm

            What I think it does tell us, though, is that 1800's structures as
            such were likely partially or fully constructed of logs or wood.
            Another example along Lake Superior where I often am the only one
            camping is at Misery Bay was formerly called "Carver's Bay or Carver
            Bay" after explorer Jonathan Carver who Herb discusses in his web
            sites. There is also an Amazon.com book called "Misery Bay and Other
            Stories from Michigan's Upper Peninsula" listed under Mysteries &
            Horror. I'll vouch for that part when camping alone late some
            nights...where the Misery River and Misery Bay come together. I
            generally don't reveal my favorite private camping and kayak spots,
            but this link and photos will show you how remote and beautiful it
            is. Just before the road to Misery Bay turns gravel, on the left in
            front of an old wooden church (turned town hall), along the road is
            an open spigot of pure, artesian water continuously spewing out for
            anyone in the world to help themselves to, and I usually take up
            thirty or fory empty gallon bottles:

            http://hunts-upguide.com/toivola_misery_bay.html

            Misery Bay is one of the places I have mentioned before where I sit
            around a fire late at night, occasionally beneath the spell of Aurora
            Borealis and let 'Mother Nature' try to teach me to think more like
            the ancients who might have also taken refuge there overnight. At the
            entrance to the parking lot is a sign that tells of its origins and
            of Jonathan Carver being there, shipwrecks, terrific storms, earlier
            site of Indian battles, etc., hence later named "Misery" Bay. Very
            old U. of Michigan archaeological maps show even earlier ancient
            Indian habitation, burial sites. The reason I mention this site is
            that some springtimes when the snow and ice recede, old historic
            wooden pilings or skids? peek through the sands in the bay where
            ships were once pulled up or docked. I have stubbed my feet on the
            old pilings sometimes, the water so cold things don't decay fast in
            Lake Superior. Sand has filled the bay over time, but still no
            evidence whatever of any stone structures there. Perhaps a good idea
            to put on snorkeling gear (maybe) to get a better look-see in the
            Misery River, Firesteel and Flintsteel Rivers south toward Ontonagon.
            Below that is where I spent my teens toward Little Girls Point, MI
            and over to Saxon Harbor, Ashland, Bayfield, then farther over to
            Superior (WI)-Duluth (MN).

            None of my old woodsman, hunting and fishing friends from the area
            have ever seen rocks aligned like that anywhere, or even that shape
            anywhere up there and I am sure will also be follow the progress of
            Herb and you who get into this inquiry...

            Susan

            . --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
            <beldingenglish@...> wrote:
            >
            > Herb,
            >
            > Last night I forwarded your website to a friend, Christopher Dunn
            > whom I met through the World Explorer's Club in Kempton, Illinois
            > (David Hatcher Childress who many feel is Thor Heyerdahl's (Kon
            Tiki)
            > protege.) He and Dunn are close, longtime friends, as is engineer
            > Steve Garcia from Ancient Waterways Society, who also expressed
            > interest in your findings to me via email last evening.
            >
            > Dunn is a member of the impressive Board of Directors for the Great
            > Pyramid of Giza Research Association (http://www.gizapyramid.com/)
            and
            > has published a best-sellling book on the Great Pyramid, The Giza
            > Power Plant-Technologies of Ancient Egypt". Of numerous magazine
            > articles, one you might be particularly interested in is "Advanced
            > Machining in Ancient Egypt".
            >
            > Christopher also drove over from his home in Danville, Illinois to
            > the Ohio AAAPF/Thor/Midwest Epigraphic Society Conference last
            > October as one of our speakers. If you or other Ancient Waterways
            > Society members want to read more about Dunn, his web site is:
            >
            > http://www.gizapyramid.com/BIO-Dunn.htm
            >
            > I and many with whom I am affiliated have found Dunn to carry the
            > utmost integrity, both personally and professionally.
            >
            > Anyway, I knew he would be interested in Herb's photographs and web
            > site, so sent a note to him last night. This morning received the
            > following reply w/inclusion of one of the green weedy photos. See
            if
            > any of you can spot what he is referring to; I'd not noticed it,
            but
            > can see the circle below the weeds. Herb, can you find that exact
            > site again in your excursion back there next spring???
            >
            > Susan
            >
            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: Chris Dunn <cdunn1546@...>
            > To: SuzEnglish@...
            > Sent: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 12:13 pm
            > Subject: RE: Check out ancient_waterways_society : Message:
            > Underwater "road" or "structur
            >
            > Hi Susan,
            >
            > Thanks for the links, they are very interesting. This photograph
            has
            > a round depression in it that looks remarkably precise. Can you
            find
            > out more?
            >
            > Thanks,
            >
            > Chris
            >
            > ------------------------------------------------------------
            > From: SuzEnglish@... [mailto:SuzEnglish@...]
            > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 7:42 AM
            > To: CDunn1546@...
            > Subject: Check out ancient_waterways_society : Message:
            > Underwater "road" or "structur
            >
            > Chris,
            >
            > Below is a web site w/underwater photos from one of our Ancient
            > Waterways Society members (Herb Wagner) sent yesterday. He has
            > discovered what has the appearance of a road in an extremely remote
            > are of NW Wisconsin, near a Lake Superior to Mississippi River
            > tributary. He is leaving it up to further investigation whether or
            > not the site is natural or man-made. Many of us who lived (and
            trout
            > fished) in the area for decades has ever seen or heard about
            anything
            > like that up there before. The only other photos that seem to
            > resemble it (to me) are the "Bimini Road" in the Bahamas, though on
            a
            > much larger scale of stone 'block'.
            >
            > He has a number of excellent web sites you might enjoy, esp. if you
            > and your family plan a trip up into that area (not far from
            Bayfield
            > and the Apostle Islands, then westward along Lake Superior into the
            > Porcupine Mts. and Keweenaw County Copper Country. Herb's
            > Wisconsin's Ancient Copper Mines web site has many of us including
            > the NW region of Wisconsin as also a significant part of ancient
            > copper trade, and might prove likely to have been a significant
            > entrance to a direct trade route to the Mississippi.
            >
            > If you see anything that resembles the appearance of something man-
            > made, please let the group or Herb Wagner know. Or anyone who
            knows
            > how one determines dating and whether or not stone structures as
            such
            > are natural or man-made.
            >
            > Steve Garcia is also one of the 20 members of our group, as is
            > engineer Vince Barrows who spoke on Cahokia at the Ohio conference
            > and has been doing a lot of preservation of Monks Mound and
            advocacy
            > there.
            >
            > I know you all are busy with careers and your own research, books,
            > family etc.
            >
            > Herb's photos and web sites might intrigue you.
            >
            > Thanks again,
            > Susan
            >
            > ________________
            > Click here: ancient_waterways_society : Message: Underwater "road"
            > or "structure"?
            >
            > "Group,
            > Months ago I posted about an underwater discovery I made last
            summer
            > in Northern Wisconsin of a possible underwater road. I promised
            > photos and finally found time to whip up a webpage containing a few
            > images of this unusual feature. Please visit the following link and
            > tell me what you think. It's still in somewhat rough form, but I
            > would like your opinion on the following:
            >
            > Right now I'm calling it a "road" or "causeway." But upon
            > consideration I really don't know what it is, so maybe I should
            > change it to "possible structure of some kind" that looks like an
            > ancient road, although it may well have a natural explanation as I
            > also state.
            >
            > Thanks!
            > [Herb]
            >
            > http://www.atthecreation.com/ROAD/UNDERWATER.RD.html
            >
            > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "herbswoods"
            > <herbswoods@> wrote:
            >
            > Susan and others:
            >
            > I've changed the wording in the webpage from "road" to "structure"
            > because really: What is it?
            >
            > I don't know the answer; perhaps other members can give their
            > opinions and ideas.
            >
            > Upon looking at the photos some more, it occurs to me that if it is
            > artificial in origin, it could be the TOP of a much larger and
            mostly
            > buried structure. That is almost too extreme a position to take,
            but
            > the possibility cannot be ignored.
            >
            > What I need to find are photos of actual human-built ruins or
            ancient
            > roads that show similar "construction" to this site (in quotes
            > because, again, it might well be natural in origin and probably is.)
            >
            > The overall size of the (exposed) portion of the site was relatively
            > small, but I did not measure it. Trying to recall, I'd guess it was
            > maybe 15-20 feet wide and maybe 30-50 feet long. Maybe larger. The
            > stones were of various sizes, some large enough to be impossible for
            > one man to move them, or even two men to move them, but that's just
            > rough guesswork.
            >
            > I did not see anything else nearby: no mounds, pyramids, etc., but
            > like I wrote, the surrounding area was dense vegetation and I did
            not
            > explore it at all. My entire focus was on the "structure" itself.
            Nor
            > did I explore the surrounding upland areas.
            >
            > If it's an artificial structure, somebody put a LOT of effort into
            > building it and without any sign of modern tools or materials. One
            > person could NOT have built it. If artificial, the purpose or intent
            > of the site remains a puzzle and a mystery.
            >
            > H.W.
            >
            > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
            > <beldingenglish@> wrote:
            >
            > Herb,
            >
            > A very well-written web site, "Discovery of an Underwater
            Prehistoric
            > Road in Northwest Wisconsin?", and the photographs absolutely
            knocked
            > my socks off.
            >
            > I moved to Hurley, WI/Ironwood, MI during the late 50's, later
            lived
            > a short time in Superior, WI. I fished brushy trout streams and
            > larger Lake Superior tributaries but never saw anything remotely
            > resembling what is shown in your photographs.
            >
            > Except when helping with two Ancient American Magazine conferences
            > out West late 80's, early 90's when viewing photographs that divers
            > Dr. William Donato (Washington State)and Frank Joseph had depicting
            > the underwater "Bimini Road" near the Bahamas. One or two of your
            > photos reminded me of the precisely fitted rectangular blocks,
            though
            > yours seem smaller in size.
            >
            > Herb, about how wide and long were some of the paved surfaces you
            > uncovered and did any branch off or come to a dead end? Did you
            see
            > anything that resembled burial sites, stone or earthen mounds, rock
            > piles, stone walls, etc.? Are any of the structures out on higher
            > ground where logging occurred?
            >
            > The reason I ask was, that a few years ago a friend was surveying
            in
            > a very remote location northeast of where you are talking about and
            > discovered (has been ever since trying to what remains of a number
            of
            > old, possibly ancient stone walls on wilderness land off the beaten
            > path of old logging roads. Every wall also had large, surrounding
            > stone piles or mounds nearby.
            >
            > One stone wall, half-covered with earth, grass, overgrown brush
            leads
            > eerily down and well into a fairly deep lake. I never looked to see
            > if there was anything like a road under the thick overgrowth and
            > swampy shoreline. The sites I have investigated with him since lie
            > within a mile of present day Lake Superior shores. I practically
            had
            > to take a blood oath of secrecy until protection can be given to
            the
            > sites, undoubtedly could never find the areas again. I am urging
            that
            > photographs and carbon-dating be done soon so data and reports can
            be
            > put together and the knowledge put to public use.
            >
            > It seems wise at this time you are keeping the whereabouts of the
            > location quiet and I applaud your reverent intent to maintain the
            > integrity of landscape and waterways, as you portray and describe
            so
            > beautifully on your web sites. Little true wilderness remains any
            > more. Many of us know of even well-intended diffusionist
            researchers
            > who have wrought irreversible damage on the landscape searching for
            > and/or removing artifacts for public and private museums and
            displays.
            >
            > Web sites such as this help many of us continue considering
            > possibilites by sharing and putting together clues to this larger
            > landscape of human habitation, possibly extending our history of
            > these areas far back not only into early historic but very ancient
            > past. I hope others enjoy Herb's web sites as much as I and perhaps
            > will speculate about the photos. Please keep us posted on this
            > exploration.
            > _________________
            >
            > I miss hearing recent updates from Georgian member Jamie Clark re:
            > the hundreds of seemingly old/ancient stone bird heads discovered a
            > year or two in caves and sinkholes on private property. He weemed
            to
            > be doing an excellent job fielding questions for the landowner and
            > maintaining anonymity of the site location.
            >
            > Thanks for keeping us informed, Herb.
            >
            > Susan English
            >
            > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "herbswoods"
            > <herbswoods@> wrote:
            >
            > Group:
            >
            > Months ago I posted about an underwater discovery I made last summer
            > in Northern Wisconsin of a possible underwater road. I promised
            > photos and finally found time to whip up a webpage containing a few
            > images of this unusual feature. Please visit the following link and
            > tell me what you think. It's still in somewhat rough form, but I
            > would like your opinion on the following:
            >
            > Right now I'm calling it a "road" or "causeway." But upon
            > consideration I really don't know what it is, so maybe I should
            > change it to "possible structure of some kind" that looks like an
            > ancient road, although it may well have a natural explanation as I
            > also state.
            >
            > Thanks!
            >
            > http://www.atthecreation.com/ROAD/UNDERWATER.RD.html
            >
          • bigalemc2
            Herb - Great photos! Well, you certainly have turned up something unusual. It took me a while to look at these, finally, but I did and am glad to see them. I
            Message 5 of 13 , Jan 13, 2008
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              Herb -

              Great photos!

              Well, you certainly have turned up something unusual.

              It took me a while to look at these, finally, but I did and am glad to see them.

              I can hardly add anything to your speculations on them.  You've covered most of the possibilities.

              My POV on the photos is that you have good reason to think they are man-made.  They look more man-made than the Bimini road, to me.  The first photo was narrow enough that I thought it was a wash between man-made and natural, but in the latter ones the weight of the argument - IMHO - pushed over to the man-made end of the spectrum.

              Personally, what I like to do is to argue that they are what I DON'T want them to be, and see if that holds water - without getting bozo with speculation and diversion from Occam's Razor, which says that the simpler explanation that covers all the bases is probably the correct one.  More than a few little questions come to mind, so I will lay out what those are, for what it is worth.

              Numbering the photos from top to bottom #1 through #5:

              #1 questions and notes:
              1. What kind of stone is it?
              2. Is there any evidence that the stone(s) was not laid there naturally?
              3. Is the kind of stone present known to crack naturally in straight lines?
              4. Does this kind of stone also crack naturally in such a near-rectilinear fashion?  Some may, most would not seem to.
              5. This photo does not show right angles on all the cracks.
              6. How uniformly wide are the cracks? 
              7. If they were naturally formed, is there evidence that all the cracks might have been formed naturally at the same time, under the same forces or influences?
              8. How extensive is the entire stone area?
              9. Does the area extend under the aquatic vegetation upstream or down?
              10. Does the area extend under the river bank?
              11. Are the edges of the entire stone area natural-looking?
              12. How level is the top surface?
              13. How deep are the stones set into the river bottom?
              14. Is there more than one layer?  (This mirrors your idea that they may be the roof of a structure.)
              15. What underlies the stone area?
              16. Does the alignment follow along the bottom of the river bed?  Across it?  At an angle?
              Some of these are trite questions, but these and more need to be asked to determine if the formation is natural.

              Photo #2 and #3:  I do not see any stone in those.

              Photo #4 - all the same questions and comments apply as to photo #1, plus:
              1. This one raised my eyebrows.  A LOT.
              2. This pattern would be difficult to argue as natural
              3. The right angles are quite evident
              4. The alignment of the cross joints is amazing if naturally formed
              5. The two narrower stones have nearly aligned cracks on both sides, which make it hard to argue for natural formation
              6. The crack between the larger stone and the one 'above' it seems not to have parallel sides, which would tend to argue it is naturally formed
              7. The top surface does seem to be essentially flat, if not level
              Photo #5 - all the same questions and comments apply as to photo #1 and #4, plus:
              1. The pattern is definitely rectilinear
              2. This seems to suggest a long, linear pattern to the area, similar to a road or a paved ford
              3. Are the long cracks parallel?  If so, to what degree?
              4. The 'roadway' seems to be crowned.  Is that an illusion or true?
              5. One stone in the top of the photo does not match up crack-to-crack with those around it, in the simplest rectilinear pattern.  The mating one on the right is actually two stones.  Does this occur elsewhere?  (This seems to suggest that natural forces did not crack the two on the right, since the natural force would also have been trying to crack the single one, too.)
              Photos #4 and #5 are pretty amazing.

              Old maps would seem to be the order of the day, to see if any show any road here known to early settlers or to known industries in the area.

              You have to show that these are not known to anyone at any earlier time.  I suggest reading this book: The Island of Seven Cities: Where the Chinese Settled When They Discovered AmericaThe author went through the same kind of proving out - to himself - that your site will pretty much need to do.  He assumed that the site he'd found was known to earlier settlers, then exhausted every one of those possibilities.  What was left was not what he had ever considered possible, but it turned out to be the probable answer.

              I do not profess to have covered all the possible questions, nor to have any great insight into anything about this.  If any of the above helps you in your thinking, Herb, go for it.

              Steve Garcia
            • herbswoods
              Susan, Thanks for the Bimini road websites. Of course I ve heard of that locale before, but have never studied it and I ll do so now. Notice how I fell into
              Message 6 of 13 , Jan 15, 2008
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                Susan,

                Thanks for the Bimini "road" websites. Of course I've heard of that
                locale before, but have never studied it and I'll do so now.

                Notice how I fell into the same first response mentioned there to call
                my discovery a "road." But after thinking about it, while it does
                rather look like a road, I don't that's what it is or that it's not
                natural. For now the webpage is done, but I might go back and change
                it upon more study.

                Yes, I too have seen old structures and pilings around Superior Bay,
                mouth of Amnicon River, and in the U.P. Never have visited Misery Bay,
                but am familiar with the story behind the name. I have also seen old
                bridge footings and pilings in area streams, but the site I discovered
                doesn't look at all like that stuff. Unique and strikingly different
                from anything else.

                Also, your colleague Chris asked remarked: "This photograph
                has a round depression in it that looks remarkably precise."

                Which photo was he referring to? Not sure what "round depression" he's
                talking about but I'm interested.

                Thanks!
                HW

                --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
                <beldingenglish@...> wrote:
                >
                > Herb, All,
                >
                > I am going to throw in a couple of web links here in response to your
                > inquiry about possible links on ancient roads, ruins, etc. that
                > relate to this fun new NW Wisconsin mystery.
                >
                > 1. I will let those interestedeted Google "Bimini Road" to check out
                > photos...not very similar but a couple of photos I recall seeing a
                > few years ago showed a more similar stretch of rectangular stones to
                > Herb's photos. Rick "Oz" in our group interviewd William Donato on
                > Oopa Loopa Cafe radio recently. I was on a Red Cross mission then
                > and have not listened to the program from the archives. But Donato
                > and Frank Joseph from Ancient American are both divers, longtime
                > friends. I mentioned before Bill was at at least two Ancient American
                > conference years ago out West; I saw some of his photos of Bimini
                > then.
                >
                > But possibly more interesting, Herb and those of you who will be
                > following his progress is the following article, listed under the
                > title Ancient Archaeology, "BIMINI ROAD, ANALYSIS" from A SCIENTIFIC
                > SELECTION OF WEB INFORMATION ON ANCIENT UNDERWATER RUINS AND OTHER
                > REMARKABLE FINDS:
                >
                > http://www.altarcheologie.nl/index.html?
                > underwater_ruins/bimini/bimini_analysis.htm
                >
                > Starts very interestingly: "Firstly one should not be confused by the
                > word "road", this is only a convenient looking name given by the
                > first discoverers. One should see the road initially just as what it
                > is: a collection of stones. The question is: are the shape and
                > arrangement of these stones such that they are artificial, made by
                > man. The usual arguments for this are: regularity, straight lines
                > (not circles, nature is pretty good at making circles), some kinds of
                > symmetry (not all: natural crystals can also be symmetric, but they
                > are usually not bigger than a decimeter), and the like."...
                >
                > I will let you read the rest. The article refers to an ocean rock
                > structure but likely the same rules apply. (I feel as though I am in
                > school again).
                >
                > 2. Possibly not relative, but something to consider since the article
                > stems from an area in close approximation to Herb's tributary of Lake
                > Superior re: a wooden crib from the 1870's that washed up on a Duluth
                > shore. It mentions something about a "stone road on top". To me, all
                > diagrams, photos of rocks don't show anything that even resembles the
                > precision of Herb's underwater pattern of large rectangular stones.
                >
                > Article is called "Duluth Chapter Helps With Washed Up Crib":
                >
                > http://www.glsps.org/crib_project/duluth_crib_project.htm
                >
                > What I think it does tell us, though, is that 1800's structures as
                > such were likely partially or fully constructed of logs or wood.
                > Another example along Lake Superior where I often am the only one
                > camping is at Misery Bay was formerly called "Carver's Bay or Carver
                > Bay" after explorer Jonathan Carver who Herb discusses in his web
                > sites. There is also an Amazon.com book called "Misery Bay and Other
                > Stories from Michigan's Upper Peninsula" listed under Mysteries &
                > Horror. I'll vouch for that part when camping alone late some
                > nights...where the Misery River and Misery Bay come together. I
                > generally don't reveal my favorite private camping and kayak spots,
                > but this link and photos will show you how remote and beautiful it
                > is. Just before the road to Misery Bay turns gravel, on the left in
                > front of an old wooden church (turned town hall), along the road is
                > an open spigot of pure, artesian water continuously spewing out for
                > anyone in the world to help themselves to, and I usually take up
                > thirty or fory empty gallon bottles:
                >
                > http://hunts-upguide.com/toivola_misery_bay.html
                >
                > Misery Bay is one of the places I have mentioned before where I sit
                > around a fire late at night, occasionally beneath the spell of Aurora
                > Borealis and let 'Mother Nature' try to teach me to think more like
                > the ancients who might have also taken refuge there overnight. At the
                > entrance to the parking lot is a sign that tells of its origins and
                > of Jonathan Carver being there, shipwrecks, terrific storms, earlier
                > site of Indian battles, etc., hence later named "Misery" Bay. Very
                > old U. of Michigan archaeological maps show even earlier ancient
                > Indian habitation, burial sites. The reason I mention this site is
                > that some springtimes when the snow and ice recede, old historic
                > wooden pilings or skids? peek through the sands in the bay where
                > ships were once pulled up or docked. I have stubbed my feet on the
                > old pilings sometimes, the water so cold things don't decay fast in
                > Lake Superior. Sand has filled the bay over time, but still no
                > evidence whatever of any stone structures there. Perhaps a good idea
                > to put on snorkeling gear (maybe) to get a better look-see in the
                > Misery River, Firesteel and Flintsteel Rivers south toward Ontonagon.
                > Below that is where I spent my teens toward Little Girls Point, MI
                > and over to Saxon Harbor, Ashland, Bayfield, then farther over to
                > Superior (WI)-Duluth (MN).
                >
                > None of my old woodsman, hunting and fishing friends from the area
                > have ever seen rocks aligned like that anywhere, or even that shape
                > anywhere up there and I am sure will also be follow the progress of
                > Herb and you who get into this inquiry...
                >
                > Susan
                >
                > . --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
                > <beldingenglish@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Herb,
                > >
                > > Last night I forwarded your website to a friend, Christopher Dunn
                > > whom I met through the World Explorer's Club in Kempton, Illinois
                > > (David Hatcher Childress who many feel is Thor Heyerdahl's (Kon
                > Tiki)
                > > protege.) He and Dunn are close, longtime friends, as is engineer
                > > Steve Garcia from Ancient Waterways Society, who also expressed
                > > interest in your findings to me via email last evening.
                > >
                > > Dunn is a member of the impressive Board of Directors for the Great
                > > Pyramid of Giza Research Association (http://www.gizapyramid.com/)
                > and
                > > has published a best-sellling book on the Great Pyramid, The Giza
                > > Power Plant-Technologies of Ancient Egypt". Of numerous magazine
                > > articles, one you might be particularly interested in is "Advanced
                > > Machining in Ancient Egypt".
                > >
                > > Christopher also drove over from his home in Danville, Illinois to
                > > the Ohio AAAPF/Thor/Midwest Epigraphic Society Conference last
                > > October as one of our speakers. If you or other Ancient Waterways
                > > Society members want to read more about Dunn, his web site is:
                > >
                > > http://www.gizapyramid.com/BIO-Dunn.htm
                > >
                > > I and many with whom I am affiliated have found Dunn to carry the
                > > utmost integrity, both personally and professionally.
                > >
                > > Anyway, I knew he would be interested in Herb's photographs and web
                > > site, so sent a note to him last night. This morning received the
                > > following reply w/inclusion of one of the green weedy photos. See
                > if
                > > any of you can spot what he is referring to; I'd not noticed it,
                > but
                > > can see the circle below the weeds. Herb, can you find that exact
                > > site again in your excursion back there next spring???
                > >
                > > Susan
                > >
                > > -----Original Message-----
                > > From: Chris Dunn <cdunn1546@>
                > > To: SuzEnglish@
                > > Sent: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 12:13 pm
                > > Subject: RE: Check out ancient_waterways_society : Message:
                > > Underwater "road" or "structur
                > >
                > > Hi Susan,
                > >
                > > Thanks for the links, they are very interesting. This photograph
                > has
                > > a round depression in it that looks remarkably precise. Can you
                > find
                > > out more?
                > >
                > > Thanks,
                > >
                > > Chris
                > >
                > > ------------------------------------------------------------
                > > From: SuzEnglish@ [mailto:SuzEnglish@]
                > > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 7:42 AM
                > > To: CDunn1546@
                > > Subject: Check out ancient_waterways_society : Message:
                > > Underwater "road" or "structur
                > >
                > > Chris,
                > >
                > > Below is a web site w/underwater photos from one of our Ancient
                > > Waterways Society members (Herb Wagner) sent yesterday. He has
                > > discovered what has the appearance of a road in an extremely remote
                > > are of NW Wisconsin, near a Lake Superior to Mississippi River
                > > tributary. He is leaving it up to further investigation whether or
                > > not the site is natural or man-made. Many of us who lived (and
                > trout
                > > fished) in the area for decades has ever seen or heard about
                > anything
                > > like that up there before. The only other photos that seem to
                > > resemble it (to me) are the "Bimini Road" in the Bahamas, though on
                > a
                > > much larger scale of stone 'block'.
                > >
                > > He has a number of excellent web sites you might enjoy, esp. if you
                > > and your family plan a trip up into that area (not far from
                > Bayfield
                > > and the Apostle Islands, then westward along Lake Superior into the
                > > Porcupine Mts. and Keweenaw County Copper Country. Herb's
                > > Wisconsin's Ancient Copper Mines web site has many of us including
                > > the NW region of Wisconsin as also a significant part of ancient
                > > copper trade, and might prove likely to have been a significant
                > > entrance to a direct trade route to the Mississippi.
                > >
                > > If you see anything that resembles the appearance of something man-
                > > made, please let the group or Herb Wagner know. Or anyone who
                > knows
                > > how one determines dating and whether or not stone structures as
                > such
                > > are natural or man-made.
                > >
                > > Steve Garcia is also one of the 20 members of our group, as is
                > > engineer Vince Barrows who spoke on Cahokia at the Ohio conference
                > > and has been doing a lot of preservation of Monks Mound and
                > advocacy
                > > there.
                > >
                > > I know you all are busy with careers and your own research, books,
                > > family etc.
                > >
                > > Herb's photos and web sites might intrigue you.
                > >
                > > Thanks again,
                > > Susan
                > >
                > > ________________
                > > Click here: ancient_waterways_society : Message: Underwater "road"
                > > or "structure"?
                > >
                > > "Group,
                > > Months ago I posted about an underwater discovery I made last
                > summer
                > > in Northern Wisconsin of a possible underwater road. I promised
                > > photos and finally found time to whip up a webpage containing a few
                > > images of this unusual feature. Please visit the following link and
                > > tell me what you think. It's still in somewhat rough form, but I
                > > would like your opinion on the following:
                > >
                > > Right now I'm calling it a "road" or "causeway." But upon
                > > consideration I really don't know what it is, so maybe I should
                > > change it to "possible structure of some kind" that looks like an
                > > ancient road, although it may well have a natural explanation as I
                > > also state.
                > >
                > > Thanks!
                > > [Herb]
                > >
                > > http://www.atthecreation.com/ROAD/UNDERWATER.RD.html
                > >
                > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "herbswoods"
                > > <herbswoods@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Susan and others:
                > >
                > > I've changed the wording in the webpage from "road" to "structure"
                > > because really: What is it?
                > >
                > > I don't know the answer; perhaps other members can give their
                > > opinions and ideas.
                > >
                > > Upon looking at the photos some more, it occurs to me that if it is
                > > artificial in origin, it could be the TOP of a much larger and
                > mostly
                > > buried structure. That is almost too extreme a position to take,
                > but
                > > the possibility cannot be ignored.
                > >
                > > What I need to find are photos of actual human-built ruins or
                > ancient
                > > roads that show similar "construction" to this site (in quotes
                > > because, again, it might well be natural in origin and probably is.)
                > >
                > > The overall size of the (exposed) portion of the site was relatively
                > > small, but I did not measure it. Trying to recall, I'd guess it was
                > > maybe 15-20 feet wide and maybe 30-50 feet long. Maybe larger. The
                > > stones were of various sizes, some large enough to be impossible for
                > > one man to move them, or even two men to move them, but that's just
                > > rough guesswork.
                > >
                > > I did not see anything else nearby: no mounds, pyramids, etc., but
                > > like I wrote, the surrounding area was dense vegetation and I did
                > not
                > > explore it at all. My entire focus was on the "structure" itself.
                > Nor
                > > did I explore the surrounding upland areas.
                > >
                > > If it's an artificial structure, somebody put a LOT of effort into
                > > building it and without any sign of modern tools or materials. One
                > > person could NOT have built it. If artificial, the purpose or intent
                > > of the site remains a puzzle and a mystery.
                > >
                > > H.W.
                > >
                > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
                > > <beldingenglish@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Herb,
                > >
                > > A very well-written web site, "Discovery of an Underwater
                > Prehistoric
                > > Road in Northwest Wisconsin?", and the photographs absolutely
                > knocked
                > > my socks off.
                > >
                > > I moved to Hurley, WI/Ironwood, MI during the late 50's, later
                > lived
                > > a short time in Superior, WI. I fished brushy trout streams and
                > > larger Lake Superior tributaries but never saw anything remotely
                > > resembling what is shown in your photographs.
                > >
                > > Except when helping with two Ancient American Magazine conferences
                > > out West late 80's, early 90's when viewing photographs that divers
                > > Dr. William Donato (Washington State)and Frank Joseph had depicting
                > > the underwater "Bimini Road" near the Bahamas. One or two of your
                > > photos reminded me of the precisely fitted rectangular blocks,
                > though
                > > yours seem smaller in size.
                > >
                > > Herb, about how wide and long were some of the paved surfaces you
                > > uncovered and did any branch off or come to a dead end? Did you
                > see
                > > anything that resembled burial sites, stone or earthen mounds, rock
                > > piles, stone walls, etc.? Are any of the structures out on higher
                > > ground where logging occurred?
                > >
                > > The reason I ask was, that a few years ago a friend was surveying
                > in
                > > a very remote location northeast of where you are talking about and
                > > discovered (has been ever since trying to what remains of a number
                > of
                > > old, possibly ancient stone walls on wilderness land off the beaten
                > > path of old logging roads. Every wall also had large, surrounding
                > > stone piles or mounds nearby.
                > >
                > > One stone wall, half-covered with earth, grass, overgrown brush
                > leads
                > > eerily down and well into a fairly deep lake. I never looked to see
                > > if there was anything like a road under the thick overgrowth and
                > > swampy shoreline. The sites I have investigated with him since lie
                > > within a mile of present day Lake Superior shores. I practically
                > had
                > > to take a blood oath of secrecy until protection can be given to
                > the
                > > sites, undoubtedly could never find the areas again. I am urging
                > that
                > > photographs and carbon-dating be done soon so data and reports can
                > be
                > > put together and the knowledge put to public use.
                > >
                > > It seems wise at this time you are keeping the whereabouts of the
                > > location quiet and I applaud your reverent intent to maintain the
                > > integrity of landscape and waterways, as you portray and describe
                > so
                > > beautifully on your web sites. Little true wilderness remains any
                > > more. Many of us know of even well-intended diffusionist
                > researchers
                > > who have wrought irreversible damage on the landscape searching for
                > > and/or removing artifacts for public and private museums and
                > displays.
                > >
                > > Web sites such as this help many of us continue considering
                > > possibilites by sharing and putting together clues to this larger
                > > landscape of human habitation, possibly extending our history of
                > > these areas far back not only into early historic but very ancient
                > > past. I hope others enjoy Herb's web sites as much as I and perhaps
                > > will speculate about the photos. Please keep us posted on this
                > > exploration.
                > > _________________
                > >
                > > I miss hearing recent updates from Georgian member Jamie Clark re:
                > > the hundreds of seemingly old/ancient stone bird heads discovered a
                > > year or two in caves and sinkholes on private property. He weemed
                > to
                > > be doing an excellent job fielding questions for the landowner and
                > > maintaining anonymity of the site location.
                > >
                > > Thanks for keeping us informed, Herb.
                > >
                > > Susan English
                > >
                > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "herbswoods"
                > > <herbswoods@> wrote:
                > >
                > > Group:
                > >
                > > Months ago I posted about an underwater discovery I made last summer
                > > in Northern Wisconsin of a possible underwater road. I promised
                > > photos and finally found time to whip up a webpage containing a few
                > > images of this unusual feature. Please visit the following link and
                > > tell me what you think. It's still in somewhat rough form, but I
                > > would like your opinion on the following:
                > >
                > > Right now I'm calling it a "road" or "causeway." But upon
                > > consideration I really don't know what it is, so maybe I should
                > > change it to "possible structure of some kind" that looks like an
                > > ancient road, although it may well have a natural explanation as I
                > > also state.
                > >
                > > Thanks!
                > >
                > > http://www.atthecreation.com/ROAD/UNDERWATER.RD.html
                > >
                >
              • Susan
                Herb, Steve, and All, When I first opened the email reply from Christopher it had on the page one of your little photos. Now it isn t and it boggles my mind.
                Message 7 of 13 , Jan 15, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  Herb, Steve, and All,

                  When I first opened the email reply from Christopher it had on the
                  page one of your little photos. Now it isn't and it boggles my mind.
                  But I see what he was referreing to. Maybe Steve Garcia does, too.
                  He is an engineer and long into ancient studies. Steve is a longtime
                  personal friend of Christopher Dunn, Hatcher Childress and some of
                  their associates while I am more an acquaintence through conferences.

                  Do you fellows and members at this message board see the circle
                  within the green reedy photo on Herb's new web page (within the
                  paragraph "That day, chilled by the...")?

                  Dunn had written..."This photograph has a round depression in it that
                  looks remarkably precise. Can you find out more? Thanks, Chris"
                  _________________

                  Susan





                  --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "herbswoods"
                  <herbswoods@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Susan,
                  >
                  > Thanks for the Bimini "road" websites. Of course I've heard of that
                  > locale before, but have never studied it and I'll do so now.
                  >
                  > Notice how I fell into the same first response mentioned there to
                  call
                  > my discovery a "road." But after thinking about it, while it does
                  > rather look like a road, I don't that's what it is or that it's not
                  > natural. For now the webpage is done, but I might go back and change
                  > it upon more study.
                  >
                  > Yes, I too have seen old structures and pilings around Superior Bay,
                  > mouth of Amnicon River, and in the U.P. Never have visited Misery
                  Bay,
                  > but am familiar with the story behind the name. I have also seen old
                  > bridge footings and pilings in area streams, but the site I
                  discovered
                  > doesn't look at all like that stuff. Unique and strikingly different
                  > from anything else.
                  >
                  > Also, your colleague Chris asked remarked: "This photograph
                  > has a round depression in it that looks remarkably precise."
                  >
                  > Which photo was he referring to? Not sure what "round depression"
                  he's
                  > talking about but I'm interested.
                  >
                  > Thanks!
                  > HW
                  >
                  > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
                  > <beldingenglish@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Herb, All,
                  > >
                  > > I am going to throw in a couple of web links here in response to
                  your
                  > > inquiry about possible links on ancient roads, ruins, etc. that
                  > > relate to this fun new NW Wisconsin mystery.
                  > >
                  > > 1. I will let those interestedeted Google "Bimini Road" to check
                  out
                  > > photos...not very similar but a couple of photos I recall seeing
                  a
                  > > few years ago showed a more similar stretch of rectangular stones
                  to
                  > > Herb's photos. Rick "Oz" in our group interviewd William Donato
                  on
                  > > Oopa Loopa Cafe radio recently. I was on a Red Cross mission
                  then
                  > > and have not listened to the program from the archives. But
                  Donato
                  > > and Frank Joseph from Ancient American are both divers, longtime
                  > > friends. I mentioned before Bill was at at least two Ancient
                  American
                  > > conference years ago out West; I saw some of his photos of Bimini
                  > > then.
                  > >
                  > > But possibly more interesting, Herb and those of you who will be
                  > > following his progress is the following article, listed under the
                  > > title Ancient Archaeology, "BIMINI ROAD, ANALYSIS" from A
                  SCIENTIFIC
                  > > SELECTION OF WEB INFORMATION ON ANCIENT UNDERWATER RUINS AND
                  OTHER
                  > > REMARKABLE FINDS:
                  > >
                  > > http://www.altarcheologie.nl/index.html?
                  > > underwater_ruins/bimini/bimini_analysis.htm
                  > >
                  > > Starts very interestingly: "Firstly one should not be confused by
                  the
                  > > word "road", this is only a convenient looking name given by the
                  > > first discoverers. One should see the road initially just as what
                  it
                  > > is: a collection of stones. The question is: are the shape and
                  > > arrangement of these stones such that they are artificial, made
                  by
                  > > man. The usual arguments for this are: regularity, straight lines
                  > > (not circles, nature is pretty good at making circles), some
                  kinds of
                  > > symmetry (not all: natural crystals can also be symmetric, but
                  they
                  > > are usually not bigger than a decimeter), and the like."...
                  > >
                  > > I will let you read the rest. The article refers to an ocean rock
                  > > structure but likely the same rules apply. (I feel as though I
                  am in
                  > > school again).
                  > >
                  > > 2. Possibly not relative, but something to consider since the
                  article
                  > > stems from an area in close approximation to Herb's tributary of
                  Lake
                  > > Superior re: a wooden crib from the 1870's that washed up on a
                  Duluth
                  > > shore. It mentions something about a "stone road on top". To me,
                  all
                  > > diagrams, photos of rocks don't show anything that even resembles
                  the
                  > > precision of Herb's underwater pattern of large rectangular
                  stones.
                  > >
                  > > Article is called "Duluth Chapter Helps With Washed Up Crib":
                  > >
                  > > http://www.glsps.org/crib_project/duluth_crib_project.htm
                  > >
                  > > What I think it does tell us, though, is that 1800's structures
                  as
                  > > such were likely partially or fully constructed of logs or wood.
                  > > Another example along Lake Superior where I often am the only one
                  > > camping is at Misery Bay was formerly called "Carver's Bay or
                  Carver
                  > > Bay" after explorer Jonathan Carver who Herb discusses in his web
                  > > sites. There is also an Amazon.com book called "Misery Bay and
                  Other
                  > > Stories from Michigan's Upper Peninsula" listed under Mysteries &
                  > > Horror. I'll vouch for that part when camping alone late some
                  > > nights...where the Misery River and Misery Bay come together. I
                  > > generally don't reveal my favorite private camping and kayak
                  spots,
                  > > but this link and photos will show you how remote and beautiful
                  it
                  > > is. Just before the road to Misery Bay turns gravel, on the left
                  in
                  > > front of an old wooden church (turned town hall), along the road
                  is
                  > > an open spigot of pure, artesian water continuously spewing out
                  for
                  > > anyone in the world to help themselves to, and I usually take up
                  > > thirty or fory empty gallon bottles:
                  > >
                  > > http://hunts-upguide.com/toivola_misery_bay.html
                  > >
                  > > Misery Bay is one of the places I have mentioned before where I
                  sit
                  > > around a fire late at night, occasionally beneath the spell of
                  Aurora
                  > > Borealis and let 'Mother Nature' try to teach me to think more
                  like
                  > > the ancients who might have also taken refuge there overnight. At
                  the
                  > > entrance to the parking lot is a sign that tells of its origins
                  and
                  > > of Jonathan Carver being there, shipwrecks, terrific storms,
                  earlier
                  > > site of Indian battles, etc., hence later named "Misery" Bay.
                  Very
                  > > old U. of Michigan archaeological maps show even earlier ancient
                  > > Indian habitation, burial sites. The reason I mention this site
                  is
                  > > that some springtimes when the snow and ice recede, old historic
                  > > wooden pilings or skids? peek through the sands in the bay where
                  > > ships were once pulled up or docked. I have stubbed my feet on
                  the
                  > > old pilings sometimes, the water so cold things don't decay fast
                  in
                  > > Lake Superior. Sand has filled the bay over time, but still no
                  > > evidence whatever of any stone structures there. Perhaps a good
                  idea
                  > > to put on snorkeling gear (maybe) to get a better look-see in the
                  > > Misery River, Firesteel and Flintsteel Rivers south toward
                  Ontonagon.
                  > > Below that is where I spent my teens toward Little Girls Point,
                  MI
                  > > and over to Saxon Harbor, Ashland, Bayfield, then farther over to
                  > > Superior (WI)-Duluth (MN).
                  > >
                  > > None of my old woodsman, hunting and fishing friends from the
                  area
                  > > have ever seen rocks aligned like that anywhere, or even that
                  shape
                  > > anywhere up there and I am sure will also be follow the progress
                  of
                  > > Herb and you who get into this inquiry...
                  > >
                  > > Susan
                  > >
                  > > . --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
                  > > <beldingenglish@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Herb,
                  > > >
                  > > > Last night I forwarded your website to a friend, Christopher
                  Dunn
                  > > > whom I met through the World Explorer's Club in Kempton,
                  Illinois
                  > > > (David Hatcher Childress who many feel is Thor Heyerdahl's (Kon
                  > > Tiki)
                  > > > protege.) He and Dunn are close, longtime friends, as is
                  engineer
                  > > > Steve Garcia from Ancient Waterways Society, who also expressed
                  > > > interest in your findings to me via email last evening.
                  > > >
                  > > > Dunn is a member of the impressive Board of Directors for the
                  Great
                  > > > Pyramid of Giza Research Association
                  (http://www.gizapyramid.com/)
                  > > and
                  > > > has published a best-sellling book on the Great Pyramid, The
                  Giza
                  > > > Power Plant-Technologies of Ancient Egypt". Of numerous
                  magazine
                  > > > articles, one you might be particularly interested in
                  is "Advanced
                  > > > Machining in Ancient Egypt".
                  > > >
                  > > > Christopher also drove over from his home in Danville, Illinois
                  to
                  > > > the Ohio AAAPF/Thor/Midwest Epigraphic Society Conference last
                  > > > October as one of our speakers. If you or other Ancient
                  Waterways
                  > > > Society members want to read more about Dunn, his web site is:
                  > > >
                  > > > http://www.gizapyramid.com/BIO-Dunn.htm
                  > > >
                  > > > I and many with whom I am affiliated have found Dunn to carry
                  the
                  > > > utmost integrity, both personally and professionally.
                  > > >
                  > > > Anyway, I knew he would be interested in Herb's photographs and
                  web
                  > > > site, so sent a note to him last night. This morning received
                  the
                  > > > following reply w/inclusion of one of the green weedy photos.
                  See
                  > > if
                  > > > any of you can spot what he is referring to; I'd not noticed
                  it,
                  > > but
                  > > > can see the circle below the weeds. Herb, can you find that
                  exact
                  > > > site again in your excursion back there next spring???
                  > > >
                  > > > Susan
                  > > >
                  > > > -----Original Message-----
                  > > > From: Chris Dunn <cdunn1546@>
                  > > > To: SuzEnglish@
                  > > > Sent: Sun, 13 Jan 2008 12:13 pm
                  > > > Subject: RE: Check out ancient_waterways_society : Message:
                  > > > Underwater "road" or "structur
                  > > >
                  > > > Hi Susan,
                  > > >
                  > > > Thanks for the links, they are very interesting. This
                  photograph
                  > > has
                  > > > a round depression in it that looks remarkably precise. Can you
                  > > find
                  > > > out more?
                  > > >
                  > > > Thanks,
                  > > >
                  > > > Chris
                  > > >
                  > > > ------------------------------------------------------------
                  > > > From: SuzEnglish@ [mailto:SuzEnglish@]
                  > > > Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2008 7:42 AM
                  > > > To: CDunn1546@
                  > > > Subject: Check out ancient_waterways_society : Message:
                  > > > Underwater "road" or "structur
                  > > >
                  > > > Chris,
                  > > >
                  > > > Below is a web site w/underwater photos from one of our Ancient
                  > > > Waterways Society members (Herb Wagner) sent yesterday. He has
                  > > > discovered what has the appearance of a road in an extremely
                  remote
                  > > > are of NW Wisconsin, near a Lake Superior to Mississippi River
                  > > > tributary. He is leaving it up to further investigation
                  whether or
                  > > > not the site is natural or man-made. Many of us who lived (and
                  > > trout
                  > > > fished) in the area for decades has ever seen or heard about
                  > > anything
                  > > > like that up there before. The only other photos that seem to
                  > > > resemble it (to me) are the "Bimini Road" in the Bahamas,
                  though on
                  > > a
                  > > > much larger scale of stone 'block'.
                  > > >
                  > > > He has a number of excellent web sites you might enjoy, esp. if
                  you
                  > > > and your family plan a trip up into that area (not far from
                  > > Bayfield
                  > > > and the Apostle Islands, then westward along Lake Superior into
                  the
                  > > > Porcupine Mts. and Keweenaw County Copper Country. Herb's
                  > > > Wisconsin's Ancient Copper Mines web site has many of us
                  including
                  > > > the NW region of Wisconsin as also a significant part of
                  ancient
                  > > > copper trade, and might prove likely to have been a significant
                  > > > entrance to a direct trade route to the Mississippi.
                  > > >
                  > > > If you see anything that resembles the appearance of something
                  man-
                  > > > made, please let the group or Herb Wagner know. Or anyone who
                  > > knows
                  > > > how one determines dating and whether or not stone structures
                  as
                  > > such
                  > > > are natural or man-made.
                  > > >
                  > > > Steve Garcia is also one of the 20 members of our group, as is
                  > > > engineer Vince Barrows who spoke on Cahokia at the Ohio
                  conference
                  > > > and has been doing a lot of preservation of Monks Mound and
                  > > advocacy
                  > > > there.
                  > > >
                  > > > I know you all are busy with careers and your own research,
                  books,
                  > > > family etc.
                  > > >
                  > > > Herb's photos and web sites might intrigue you.
                  > > >
                  > > > Thanks again,
                  > > > Susan
                  > > >
                  > > > ________________
                  > > > Click here: ancient_waterways_society : Message:
                  Underwater "road"
                  > > > or "structure"?
                  > > >
                  > > > "Group,
                  > > > Months ago I posted about an underwater discovery I made last
                  > > summer
                  > > > in Northern Wisconsin of a possible underwater road. I promised
                  > > > photos and finally found time to whip up a webpage containing a
                  few
                  > > > images of this unusual feature. Please visit the following link
                  and
                  > > > tell me what you think. It's still in somewhat rough form, but
                  I
                  > > > would like your opinion on the following:
                  > > >
                  > > > Right now I'm calling it a "road" or "causeway." But upon
                  > > > consideration I really don't know what it is, so maybe I should
                  > > > change it to "possible structure of some kind" that looks like
                  an
                  > > > ancient road, although it may well have a natural explanation
                  as I
                  > > > also state.
                  > > >
                  > > > Thanks!
                  > > > [Herb]
                  > > >
                  > > > http://www.atthecreation.com/ROAD/UNDERWATER.RD.html
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "herbswoods"
                  > > > <herbswoods@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Susan and others:
                  > > >
                  > > > I've changed the wording in the webpage from "road"
                  to "structure"
                  > > > because really: What is it?
                  > > >
                  > > > I don't know the answer; perhaps other members can give their
                  > > > opinions and ideas.
                  > > >
                  > > > Upon looking at the photos some more, it occurs to me that if
                  it is
                  > > > artificial in origin, it could be the TOP of a much larger and
                  > > mostly
                  > > > buried structure. That is almost too extreme a position to
                  take,
                  > > but
                  > > > the possibility cannot be ignored.
                  > > >
                  > > > What I need to find are photos of actual human-built ruins or
                  > > ancient
                  > > > roads that show similar "construction" to this site (in quotes
                  > > > because, again, it might well be natural in origin and probably
                  is.)
                  > > >
                  > > > The overall size of the (exposed) portion of the site was
                  relatively
                  > > > small, but I did not measure it. Trying to recall, I'd guess it
                  was
                  > > > maybe 15-20 feet wide and maybe 30-50 feet long. Maybe larger.
                  The
                  > > > stones were of various sizes, some large enough to be
                  impossible for
                  > > > one man to move them, or even two men to move them, but that's
                  just
                  > > > rough guesswork.
                  > > >
                  > > > I did not see anything else nearby: no mounds, pyramids, etc.,
                  but
                  > > > like I wrote, the surrounding area was dense vegetation and I
                  did
                  > > not
                  > > > explore it at all. My entire focus was on the "structure"
                  itself.
                  > > Nor
                  > > > did I explore the surrounding upland areas.
                  > > >
                  > > > If it's an artificial structure, somebody put a LOT of effort
                  into
                  > > > building it and without any sign of modern tools or materials.
                  One
                  > > > person could NOT have built it. If artificial, the purpose or
                  intent
                  > > > of the site remains a puzzle and a mystery.
                  > > >
                  > > > H.W.
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
                  > > > <beldingenglish@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Herb,
                  > > >
                  > > > A very well-written web site, "Discovery of an Underwater
                  > > Prehistoric
                  > > > Road in Northwest Wisconsin?", and the photographs absolutely
                  > > knocked
                  > > > my socks off.
                  > > >
                  > > > I moved to Hurley, WI/Ironwood, MI during the late 50's, later
                  > > lived
                  > > > a short time in Superior, WI. I fished brushy trout streams and
                  > > > larger Lake Superior tributaries but never saw anything
                  remotely
                  > > > resembling what is shown in your photographs.
                  > > >
                  > > > Except when helping with two Ancient American Magazine
                  conferences
                  > > > out West late 80's, early 90's when viewing photographs that
                  divers
                  > > > Dr. William Donato (Washington State)and Frank Joseph had
                  depicting
                  > > > the underwater "Bimini Road" near the Bahamas. One or two of
                  your
                  > > > photos reminded me of the precisely fitted rectangular blocks,
                  > > though
                  > > > yours seem smaller in size.
                  > > >
                  > > > Herb, about how wide and long were some of the paved surfaces
                  you
                  > > > uncovered and did any branch off or come to a dead end? Did
                  you
                  > > see
                  > > > anything that resembled burial sites, stone or earthen mounds,
                  rock
                  > > > piles, stone walls, etc.? Are any of the structures out on
                  higher
                  > > > ground where logging occurred?
                  > > >
                  > > > The reason I ask was, that a few years ago a friend was
                  surveying
                  > > in
                  > > > a very remote location northeast of where you are talking about
                  and
                  > > > discovered (has been ever since trying to what remains of a
                  number
                  > > of
                  > > > old, possibly ancient stone walls on wilderness land off the
                  beaten
                  > > > path of old logging roads. Every wall also had large,
                  surrounding
                  > > > stone piles or mounds nearby.
                  > > >
                  > > > One stone wall, half-covered with earth, grass, overgrown brush
                  > > leads
                  > > > eerily down and well into a fairly deep lake. I never looked to
                  see
                  > > > if there was anything like a road under the thick overgrowth
                  and
                  > > > swampy shoreline. The sites I have investigated with him since
                  lie
                  > > > within a mile of present day Lake Superior shores. I
                  practically
                  > > had
                  > > > to take a blood oath of secrecy until protection can be given
                  to
                  > > the
                  > > > sites, undoubtedly could never find the areas again. I am
                  urging
                  > > that
                  > > > photographs and carbon-dating be done soon so data and reports
                  can
                  > > be
                  > > > put together and the knowledge put to public use.
                  > > >
                  > > > It seems wise at this time you are keeping the whereabouts of
                  the
                  > > > location quiet and I applaud your reverent intent to maintain
                  the
                  > > > integrity of landscape and waterways, as you portray and
                  describe
                  > > so
                  > > > beautifully on your web sites. Little true wilderness remains
                  any
                  > > > more. Many of us know of even well-intended diffusionist
                  > > researchers
                  > > > who have wrought irreversible damage on the landscape searching
                  for
                  > > > and/or removing artifacts for public and private museums and
                  > > displays.
                  > > >
                  > > > Web sites such as this help many of us continue considering
                  > > > possibilites by sharing and putting together clues to this
                  larger
                  > > > landscape of human habitation, possibly extending our history
                  of
                  > > > these areas far back not only into early historic but very
                  ancient
                  > > > past. I hope others enjoy Herb's web sites as much as I and
                  perhaps
                  > > > will speculate about the photos. Please keep us posted on this
                  > > > exploration.
                  > > > _________________
                  > > >
                  > > > I miss hearing recent updates from Georgian member Jamie Clark
                  re:
                  > > > the hundreds of seemingly old/ancient stone bird heads
                  discovered a
                  > > > year or two in caves and sinkholes on private property. He
                  weemed
                  > > to
                  > > > be doing an excellent job fielding questions for the landowner
                  and
                  > > > maintaining anonymity of the site location.
                  > > >
                  > > > Thanks for keeping us informed, Herb.
                  > > >
                  > > > Susan English
                  > > >
                  > > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "herbswoods"
                  > > > <herbswoods@> wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > > Group:
                  > > >
                  > > > Months ago I posted about an underwater discovery I made last
                  summer
                  > > > in Northern Wisconsin of a possible underwater road. I promised
                  > > > photos and finally found time to whip up a webpage containing a
                  few
                  > > > images of this unusual feature. Please visit the following link
                  and
                  > > > tell me what you think. It's still in somewhat rough form, but
                  I
                  > > > would like your opinion on the following:
                  > > >
                  > > > Right now I'm calling it a "road" or "causeway." But upon
                  > > > consideration I really don't know what it is, so maybe I should
                  > > > change it to "possible structure of some kind" that looks like
                  an
                  > > > ancient road, although it may well have a natural explanation
                  as I
                  > > > also state.
                  > > >
                  > > > Thanks!
                  > > >
                  > > > http://www.atthecreation.com/ROAD/UNDERWATER.RD.html
                  > > >
                  > >
                  >
                • herbswoods
                  Steve: Thanks for the thoughtful response. I agree with everything you said and all those things need to be done. Photos #4 & 5 are pretty amazing, esp. #5
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jan 15, 2008
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                    Steve:

                    Thanks for the thoughtful response. I agree with everything you said
                    and all those things need to be done. Photos #4 & 5 are pretty
                    amazing, esp. #5 which shows very precise alignment.

                    You asked if the stucture has a crown to it From the photo it does
                    look like it, but in memory it seems that the structure was level. I
                    could be wrong, however, as I was not there very long. I didn't even
                    try to dislodge or move a block or otherwise test anything. It just
                    didn't occur to me at the time to test anything. All I wanted was to
                    obtain photographs and happily I was able to do.

                    It's probably of natural origin, but it's fun to speculate as the
                    region is a legend-haunted one.

                    HW


                    --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "bigalemc2"
                    <puppet@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Herb -
                    >
                    > Great photos!
                    >
                    > Well, you certainly have turned up something unusual.
                    >
                    > It took me a while to look at these, finally, but I did and am glad to
                    > see them.
                    >
                    > I can hardly add anything to your speculations on them. You've covered
                    > most of the possibilities.
                    >
                    > My POV on the photos is that you have good reason to think they are
                    > man-made. They look more man-made than the Bimini road, to me. The
                    > first photo was narrow enough that I thought it was a wash between
                    > man-made and natural, but in the latter ones the weight of the argument
                    > - IMHO - pushed over to the man-made end of the spectrum.
                    >
                    > Personally, what I like to do is to argue that they are what I DON'T
                    > want them to be, and see if that holds water - without getting bozo with
                    > speculation and diversion from Occam's Razor, which says that the
                    > simpler explanation that covers all the bases is probably the correct
                    > one. More than a few little questions come to mind, so I will lay out
                    > what those are, for what it is worth.
                    >
                    > Numbering the photos from top to bottom #1 through #5:
                    >
                    > #1 questions and notes:
                    >
                    > 1. What kind of stone is it?
                    > 2. Is there any evidence that the stone(s) was not laid there
                    > naturally?
                    > 3. Is the kind of stone present known to crack naturally in straight
                    > lines?
                    > 4. Does this kind of stone also crack naturally in such a
                    > near-rectilinear fashion? Some may, most would not seem to.
                    > 5. This photo does not show right angles on all the cracks.
                    > 6. How uniformly wide are the cracks?
                    >
                    > 7. If they were naturally formed, is there evidence that all the
                    > cracks might have been formed naturally at the same time, under the same
                    > forces or influences?
                    >
                    > 8. How extensive is the entire stone area?
                    > 9. Does the area extend under the aquatic vegetation upstream or
                    > down?
                    > 10. Does the area extend under the river bank?
                    >
                    > 11. Are the edges of the entire stone area natural-looking?
                    > 12. How level is the top surface?
                    > 13. How deep are the stones set into the river bottom?
                    > 14. Is there more than one layer? (This mirrors your idea that they
                    > may be the roof of a structure.)
                    >
                    > 15. What underlies the stone area?
                    >
                    > 16. Does the alignment follow along the bottom of the river bed?
                    > Across it? At an angle?
                    > Some of these are trite questions, but these and more need to be asked
                    > to determine if the formation is natural.
                    >
                    > Photo #2 and #3: I do not see any stone in those.
                    >
                    > Photo #4 - all the same questions and comments apply as to photo #1,
                    > plus:
                    >
                    > 1. This one raised my eyebrows. A LOT.
                    > 2. This pattern would be difficult to argue as natural
                    > 3. The right angles are quite evident
                    > 4. The alignment of the cross joints is amazing if naturally formed
                    > 5. The two narrower stones have nearly aligned cracks on both sides,
                    > which make it hard to argue for natural formation
                    > 6. The crack between the larger stone and the one 'above' it seems
                    > not to have parallel sides, which would tend to argue it is naturally
                    > formed
                    > 7. The top surface does seem to be essentially flat, if not level
                    > Photo #5 - all the same questions and comments apply as to photo #1 and
                    > #4, plus:
                    >
                    > 1. The pattern is definitely rectilinear
                    > 2. This seems to suggest a long, linear pattern to the area, similar
                    > to a road or a paved ford
                    > 3. Are the long cracks parallel? If so, to what degree?
                    > 4. The 'roadway' seems to be crowned. Is that an illusion or true?
                    > 5. One stone in the top of the photo does not match up
                    crack-to-crack
                    > with those around it, in the simplest rectilinear pattern. The mating
                    > one on the right is actually two stones. Does this occur elsewhere?
                    > (This seems to suggest that natural forces did not crack the two on the
                    > right, since the natural force would also have been trying to crack the
                    > single one, too.)
                    >
                    > Photos #4 and #5 are pretty amazing.
                    >
                    > Old maps would seem to be the order of the day, to see if any show any
                    > road here known to early settlers or to known industries in the area.
                    >
                    > You have to show that these are not known to anyone at any earlier time.
                    > I suggest reading this book: The Island of Seven Cities: Where the
                    > Chinese Settled When They Discovered America
                    >
                    <http://www.amazon.com/Island-Seven-Cities-Chinese-Discovered/dp/0312362\
                    > 056/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200295531&sr=8-1> . The
                    > author went through the same kind of proving out - to himself - that
                    > your site will pretty much need to do. He assumed that the site he'd
                    > found was known to earlier settlers, then exhausted every one of those
                    > possibilities. What was left was not what he had ever considered
                    > possible, but it turned out to be the probable answer.
                    >
                    > I do not profess to have covered all the possible questions, nor to have
                    > any great insight into anything about this. If any of the above helps
                    > you in your thinking, Herb, go for it.
                    >
                    > Steve Garcia
                    >
                  • Susan
                    Steve, Excellent letter you wrote to Herb...and you are right that Herb s photos look more man-made that the Bimini Road. Herb, I d probably not even spend
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jan 15, 2008
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                      Steve,

                      Excellent letter you wrote to Herb...and you are right that Herb's
                      photos look more man-made that the Bimini Road. Herb, I'd probably
                      not even spend much time looking at Bimini. That was the only
                      underwater I'd seen I felt was similar.

                      The little archeological web site I sent, and even moreso, Steve's
                      astute ideas and insights in his post below have provided a finer
                      knowledge base of things to look for than hours of web sites, old
                      literature I glanced at. Likely divers David Hatcher-Childress, Frank
                      Joseph, and Wayne have sites more similar to those in your photo.I
                      just sent them your links, too. All of these fellows are friends yet
                      also complimentary magazine competitors (Ancient American and
                      Adventures Unlimited), and I hope will watch the site and do a bit of
                      research along with those here who are intriqued, and especially be
                      following Herb's progress, come Spring.

                      Susan

                      --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "bigalemc2"
                      <puppet@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Herb -
                      >
                      > Great photos!
                      >
                      > Well, you certainly have turned up something unusual.
                      >
                      > It took me a while to look at these, finally, but I did and am glad
                      to
                      > see them.
                      >
                      > I can hardly add anything to your speculations on them. You've
                      covered
                      > most of the possibilities.
                      >
                      > My POV on the photos is that you have good reason to think they are
                      > man-made. They look more man-made than the Bimini road, to me. The
                      > first photo was narrow enough that I thought it was a wash between
                      > man-made and natural, but in the latter ones the weight of the
                      argument
                      > - IMHO - pushed over to the man-made end of the spectrum.
                      >
                      > Personally, what I like to do is to argue that they are what I DON'T
                      > want them to be, and see if that holds water - without getting bozo
                      with
                      > speculation and diversion from Occam's Razor, which says that the
                      > simpler explanation that covers all the bases is probably the
                      correct
                      > one. More than a few little questions come to mind, so I will lay
                      out
                      > what those are, for what it is worth.
                      >
                      > Numbering the photos from top to bottom #1 through #5:
                      >
                      > #1 questions and notes:
                      >
                      > 1. What kind of stone is it?
                      > 2. Is there any evidence that the stone(s) was not laid there
                      > naturally?
                      > 3. Is the kind of stone present known to crack naturally in
                      straight
                      > lines?
                      > 4. Does this kind of stone also crack naturally in such a
                      > near-rectilinear fashion? Some may, most would not seem to.
                      > 5. This photo does not show right angles on all the cracks.
                      > 6. How uniformly wide are the cracks?
                      >
                      > 7. If they were naturally formed, is there evidence that all the
                      > cracks might have been formed naturally at the same time, under the
                      same
                      > forces or influences?
                      >
                      > 8. How extensive is the entire stone area?
                      > 9. Does the area extend under the aquatic vegetation upstream or
                      > down?
                      > 10. Does the area extend under the river bank?
                      >
                      > 11. Are the edges of the entire stone area natural-looking?
                      > 12. How level is the top surface?
                      > 13. How deep are the stones set into the river bottom?
                      > 14. Is there more than one layer? (This mirrors your idea that
                      they
                      > may be the roof of a structure.)
                      >
                      > 15. What underlies the stone area?
                      >
                      > 16. Does the alignment follow along the bottom of the river bed?
                      > Across it? At an angle?
                      > Some of these are trite questions, but these and more need to be
                      asked
                      > to determine if the formation is natural.
                      >
                      > Photo #2 and #3: I do not see any stone in those.
                      >
                      > Photo #4 - all the same questions and comments apply as to photo #1,
                      > plus:
                      >
                      > 1. This one raised my eyebrows. A LOT.
                      > 2. This pattern would be difficult to argue as natural
                      > 3. The right angles are quite evident
                      > 4. The alignment of the cross joints is amazing if naturally
                      formed
                      > 5. The two narrower stones have nearly aligned cracks on both
                      sides,
                      > which make it hard to argue for natural formation
                      > 6. The crack between the larger stone and the one 'above' it
                      seems
                      > not to have parallel sides, which would tend to argue it is
                      naturally
                      > formed
                      > 7. The top surface does seem to be essentially flat, if not
                      level
                      > Photo #5 - all the same questions and comments apply as to photo #1
                      and
                      > #4, plus:
                      >
                      > 1. The pattern is definitely rectilinear
                      > 2. This seems to suggest a long, linear pattern to the area,
                      similar
                      > to a road or a paved ford
                      > 3. Are the long cracks parallel? If so, to what degree?
                      > 4. The 'roadway' seems to be crowned. Is that an illusion or
                      true?
                      > 5. One stone in the top of the photo does not match up crack-to-
                      crack
                      > with those around it, in the simplest rectilinear pattern. The
                      mating
                      > one on the right is actually two stones. Does this occur
                      elsewhere?
                      > (This seems to suggest that natural forces did not crack the two on
                      the
                      > right, since the natural force would also have been trying to crack
                      the
                      > single one, too.)
                      >
                      > Photos #4 and #5 are pretty amazing.
                      >
                      > Old maps would seem to be the order of the day, to see if any show
                      any
                      > road here known to early settlers or to known industries in the
                      area.
                      >
                      > You have to show that these are not known to anyone at any earlier
                      time.
                      > I suggest reading this book: The Island of Seven Cities: Where the
                      > Chinese Settled When They Discovered America
                      > <http://www.amazon.com/Island-Seven-Cities-Chinese-
                      Discovered/dp/0312362\
                      > 056/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1200295531&sr=8-1> . The
                      > author went through the same kind of proving out - to himself - that
                      > your site will pretty much need to do. He assumed that the site
                      he'd
                      > found was known to earlier settlers, then exhausted every one of
                      those
                      > possibilities. What was left was not what he had ever considered
                      > possible, but it turned out to be the probable answer.
                      >
                      > I do not profess to have covered all the possible questions, nor to
                      have
                      > any great insight into anything about this. If any of the above
                      helps
                      > you in your thinking, Herb, go for it.
                      >
                      > Steve Garcia
                      >
                    • Stephen Garcia
                      Susan - I noted the comment by Chris and that particular photo, too, but - maybe it is my old fogy eyes - all I see is a long leaf curled up. I saw the round
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jan 15, 2008
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                        Susan -

                        I noted the comment by Chris and that particular photo, too, but - maybe it is my old fogy eyes - all I see is a long leaf curled up.  I saw the round thing and wanted to see something there, but that is all I see.  Is it actually something IN the stone?  Or is it an optical illusion?

                        I mean, it seems essentially the same color as the undersides of the other leaves in the photo.

                        At the same time, I DID wonder why Herb took the picture.  If not for that, then what for?  My only guess was to show the tangle he had to swim through.

                        But if it is a really something in the stone, that is, of course, a different story.

                        ***
                        Okay:  I saved the  image to my hard drive, then opened it in a graphics program and zoomed in on that 'circle'.  It appears to me to be a loop in a continuation - the end - of the long, slender leaf that stretches diagonally across the image in a slightly sinuous pattern from the lower left.  I can even follow the leaf between the two - the sinuous part and the loop at the end.

                        There even seems to be another leaf below it.

                        Here is the enlargement of that area:




                        Somebody tell me I am wrong...

                        Herb?  Did you actually see something there?  Was this something on the photo when you saw it later?

                        Steve Garcia



                        Susan wrote:

                        Herb, Steve, and All,

                        When I first opened the email reply from Christopher it had on the
                        page one of your little photos. Now it isn't and it boggles my mind.
                        But I see what he was referreing to. Maybe Steve Garcia does, too.
                        He is an engineer and long into ancient studies. Steve is a longtime
                        personal friend of Christopher Dunn, Hatcher Childress and some of
                        their associates while I am more an acquaintence through conferences.

                        Do you fellows and members at this message board see the circle
                        within the green reedy photo on Herb's new web page (within the
                        paragraph "That day, chilled by the...")?

                        Dunn had written..."This photograph has a round depression in it that
                        looks remarkably precise. Can you find out more? Thanks, Chris"
                        __





                      • bigalemc2
                        Herb - Yeah, you got an enigma on your hands, Dude. Good find! Yes, it might be natural, but I am leaning to it being something man made from a relatively
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jan 15, 2008
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                          Herb -

                          Yeah, you got an enigma on your hands, Dude. Good find!

                          Yes, it might be natural, but I am leaning to it being something man
                          made from a relatively recent time period. To me, that is the Occam's
                          razor on this. It makes what the images show make sense in the simplest
                          way. Oh, it would be lovely if it is something from the copper age,
                          but. . .

                          From the images, it would certainly seem to be man made, rather than
                          naturally occurring. Those cracks being at 90 degrees (mostly) is one
                          point in favor of man made. Nature tends to not do things in 90-degree
                          patterns - though one can't rule it out.

                          That non-continuous crack in that one spot seem to rule out nature; if
                          there were stresses in the stone that caused it to crack along some
                          crystalline fault (like a diamond would do), I would expect the crack to
                          extend across the entirety, IMHO. I can speculate on ways that the
                          break wouldn't be fully across the area, but they have problems in
                          themselves, so I threw them out of the argument.

                          I think it best to find old records, preferably maps. If man made, this
                          will show up there. No one builds without leaving some record. Roads
                          of whatever kind are labor intensive, so no one would go to that trouble
                          and then not put it on a map.

                          I'd recommend also to see how long it extends, as soon as possible. If
                          it is a road, there will be much more of it. If it is a stone bottom
                          put in for a post-Columbian ford, then there should be some remnants of
                          a real road on both sides of the river. It may not appear obvious right
                          near the bank, due to erosion, occasional flooding, etc., so looking
                          many feet away from the banks might give the best results.

                          All this is speculation and - like your thoughts on the web page - can
                          get you going in all kinds of directions. A few more facts can cut that
                          all way down. The best way to narrow down the possibilities is to go
                          get more facts. Take more photos, make some measurements, search under
                          and around the vegetation, blah, blah, blah.

                          Time to do some detective work...

                          Steve
                          --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "herbswoods"
                          <herbswoods@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Steve:
                          >
                          > Thanks for the thoughtful response. I agree with everything you said
                          > and all those things need to be done. Photos #4 & 5 are pretty
                          > amazing, esp. #5 which shows very precise alignment.
                          >
                          > You asked if the stucture has a crown to it From the photo it does
                          > look like it, but in memory it seems that the structure was level. I
                          > could be wrong, however, as I was not there very long. I didn't even
                          > try to dislodge or move a block or otherwise test anything. It just
                          > didn't occur to me at the time to test anything. All I wanted was to
                          > obtain photographs and happily I was able to do.
                          >
                          > It's probably of natural origin, but it's fun to speculate as the
                          > region is a legend-haunted one.
                          >
                          > HW
                        • Susan
                          Steve Garcia., Herb, and All I see from the enlargement in your (Steve G. s) email what you are referring to and perhaps send the enlargement to Herb s
                          Message 12 of 13 , Jan 15, 2008
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                            Steve Garcia., Herb, and All

                            I see from the enlargement in your (Steve G.'s) email what you are
                            referring to and perhaps send the enlargement to Herb's emailbox, too.
                            With the imprint of the green into the circle on the unenlarged photo
                            on Herb's web site, I am wondering if Herb might have laid a circular
                            tripod or other poles into silt/mud into the river bottom at that
                            spot to cause the imbedded circular 'ring' since Herb has the photos
                            and was there. Herb, is there a lot of silt in parts of the river,
                            and what do you think? I was snorkeling at Rock Lake near Madison
                            years ago after a sweat lodge by a bunch of New Agers after reading
                            Frank Jospeh's Pyramids of Rock Lake book. Deep, deep silt, and he
                            speaks of the difficulty of investigating rock or any other
                            structures beneath deep, still water such as lakes, esp. in
                            agricultural or urban areas.

                            Sorry I am posting so much but at a dormant time away
                            from 'fieldwork' and most of us are up at least to our knees in snow,
                            isn't this armchair line of inquiry interesting? Remember that some
                            of this group's data can be applied to other, future leads and
                            avenues of investigation.

                            Welcome new member Richard from MA (Maine or Massechucetts?)

                            Susan

                            --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Garcia
                            <puppet@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Susan -
                            >
                            > I noted the comment by Chris and that particular photo, too, but -
                            maybe
                            > it is my old fogy eyes - all I see is a long leaf curled up. I saw
                            the
                            > round thing and wanted to see something there, but that is all I
                            see.
                            > Is it actually something IN the stone? Or is it an optical
                            illusion?
                            >
                            > I mean, it seems essentially the same color as the undersides of
                            the
                            > other leaves in the photo.
                            >
                            > At the same time, I DID wonder why Herb took the picture. If not
                            for
                            > that, then what for? My only guess was to show the tangle he had
                            to
                            > swim through.
                            >
                            > But if it is a really something in the stone, that is, of course, a
                            > different story.
                            >
                            > ***
                            > Okay: I saved the image to my hard drive, then opened it in a
                            graphics
                            > program and zoomed in on that 'circle'. It appears to me to be a
                            loop
                            > in a continuation - the end - of the long, slender leaf that
                            stretches
                            > diagonally across the image in a slightly sinuous pattern from the
                            lower
                            > left. I can even follow the leaf between the two - the sinuous
                            part and
                            > the loop at the end.
                            >
                            > There even seems to be another leaf below it.
                            >
                            > Here is the enlargement of that area:
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Somebody tell me I am wrong...
                            >
                            > Herb? Did you actually see something there? Was this something on
                            the
                            > photo when you saw it later?
                            >
                            > Steve Garcia
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Susan wrote:
                            > >
                            > > Herb, Steve, and All,
                            > >
                            > > When I first opened the email reply from Christopher it had on the
                            > > page one of your little photos. Now it isn't and it boggles my
                            mind.
                            > > But I see what he was referreing to. Maybe Steve Garcia does, too.
                            > > He is an engineer and long into ancient studies. Steve is a
                            longtime
                            > > personal friend of Christopher Dunn, Hatcher Childress and some of
                            > > their associates while I am more an acquaintence through
                            conferences.
                            > >
                            > > Do you fellows and members at this message board see the circle
                            > > within the green reedy photo on Herb's new web page (within the
                            > > paragraph "That day, chilled by the...")?
                            > >
                            > > Dunn had written..."This photograph has a round depression in it
                            that
                            > > looks remarkably precise. Can you find out more? Thanks, Chris"
                            > > __
                            > >
                            >
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