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Monks Mound

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  • Vincent Barrows
    Hi Rick; Thanks for talking with me again, and great show as always. The monks Mound response from the professional community is located here:
    Message 1 of 2 , Jan 3, 2008
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      Hi Rick;
      Thanks for talking with me again, and great show as always. The monks Mound response from the professional community is located here:
       
      Here is a copy and paste of their specific repsonse.
      My Notes on the Monk’s Mound Discussions at the Annual Conference:
      Paula Cross of IHPA was given the opportunity to address the IAS Board at our meeting of 14 September and she graciously accepted the charge. First, she noted that IHPA’s slump stabilization plan was carefully worked out over a period of several years. This observation was well documented in the Saturday morning presentations as was the need for such a plan. Secondly, she observed that no “permitting” requirements had been violated and that in fact “permitting” did not apply to government agencies working on government land. Instead there is a protocol of “approval” that is required and that IHPA was very careful to comply with the protocol. Thirdly, her only concession to the voiced concerns of some Board members was that she allowed as how, from the perspective of IHPA, greater prior communication with the IAS would have been useful. Because Paula appeared to work hard at not directly responding to questions about a re-established Cahokia Committee, I suggested that in the future IHPA offer a brief summary of planned events at the IAS annual meetings. She indicated that it was not within the range of her job description to provide such communications and that maybe we should talk to Anne Hacker of IHPA.
      Mark Wagner inquired when a final publication of results could be expected and the response was, “In a year of two.” When no answer was extended to the question of where the material was to be published, I suggested that we offer a dedicated volume of IA in 2009 as a publication vehicle.
      The operational or field decisions regarding control over the activity of the hoe operator and how much and which of the undisturbed mound fill to remove remained glossed with the assertion that, “We had someone there all of the time keeping an eye on the mechanical excavation.” The response to the question of whether this was at times only Dr. Kidder’s graduate student volunteer was, “Yes.”
      The determination of not screening the undisturbed matrix was explained by the statement that “…over 90% of what was removed was material that had been deposited during previous mound slump repair activities.” Apparently all of the material removed from the mound has been isolated and stockpiled, although there is no plan to screen it.
      It does appear that the geotechnic run-up to the ultimate choice of strategy of repair was well crafted. Also after the hoe work was completed, the hand work and data collection proceeded in accordance with IHPA published standards.
      At the Saturday morning paper session there was some further discussion of the Cahokia Committee. While Paula Cross did not contribute, Fellows Mark Esarey and John Kelly were pressed very hard by colleagues bearing concerns over the slump stabilization strategy and methodology. On balance, Kelly noted that if we, or anybody, wanted to know what was happening at Cahokia, we should join the Cahokia Museum Society. However, the IAS’s discussions and issues are with IHPA and not the project contractor and it is not clear whether this was an agency position statement or a personal, visceral response. Actually, as nearly as I could determine, IHPA really did not directly respond to questions and thoughts regarding re-establishing the Cahokia Committee. Questions were somehow just re-directed and thereby avoided.
      On review, my conclusion is that IHPA is opposed to the concept of the Cahokia Committee and would not willingly participate in its installation or respond to its recommendations. In fairness, as several Fellows have noted to me, no state or federal agency would willingly endorse an external oversight committee. I don’t know how the IAS could compel IHPA’s acquiescence to such a committee’s presence. Given the current relatively apolitical posture of the IAS, it seems to me that participation would be entirely at IHPA’ s pleasure and discretion. Lastly, in all truthfulness, the IAS, as a voluntary association, is likely not capable of adequately and correctly assuming such responsibilities. Just look at the situation with our standing committees and their need to be recreated almost every time they are called to action. Let me state in conclusion that I fail to see how the IAS could force the IHPA (or IDOT, or IDNR, or the Shawnee National Forest, or the COE) to accept an external, archaeological oversight committee. I think that such a feat is theoretically possible, but it would require concerted political activity for which the organization has, in my perception, neither the heart, patience, nor skill.
      Our Board is continuing its discussions of the situation and will likely have a proposal available for comment in the near future.
      Stelle, President
       
      ---
       
       Incidentally, my review of the fiasco was recently published in the Wotanging Ikche, on Nanews.org in the Dec 15th issue.
       
      Thank you;
      VInce Barrows


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    • Susan
      Vince, Rick, and All, Despite current inactivity of the group, thanks Rick for continuing announcement about Oopa Loopa Cafe. Being on the road for some time
      Message 2 of 2 , Jan 10, 2008
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        Vince, Rick, and All,

        Despite current inactivity of the group, thanks Rick for continuing
        announcement about Oopa Loopa Cafe. Being on the road for some time
        volunteering with Red Cross and paid traveling nurse assignment, I've
        missed all programs since the conference. Looking forward to hearing
        the Michael Cremo program; many are amazed you have been able to book
        such varied, interesting, oftentimes renowned speakers to your weekly
        radio programs.

        Vince, thanks for keeping this site up to day with your latestt notes
        and link re: the effects upon the professional community in lieu of
        your and others' continuing work at Cahokia and Monks Mound. I only
        briefly visited the area off-season years ago on a day Pam Giese from
        this group also happened to be there. The grounds are so vast neither
        of us knew the other was there. Pam, are you living in England now?

        Rick, I need to contact you about obtaining a copy of Vince Burrow's
        very professionally done, yet impromptu talk and Powerpoint (?)
        presentation on Cahokia at the Ohio conference. Members here should
        know know that, by the end of the talk, there was was standing room
        only. Several attending the lecture in the other room are also
        interested in viewing my copy soon as it gets here.

        I need to re-visit Cahokia sometime, was hoping in the very near
        future one of our affiliate organizations would host a conference,
        symposium or preferably, small, earthy and informal field trips,
        perhaps campfire "study group" on Cahokia and nearby ancient
        waterways/diffusion. If I can get down there, I shall phone ahead,
        perhaps bring down writer-researcher David Hoffman and others to meet
        for a possible personal tour, mini "Ancient Waterways Society" open
        meeting. Anyone else is welcome; I am always available for relevant
        mini-meetings anywhere. Will serve whomever comes to homemade soup,
        bread, dessert--campfire style within the context of the nearest
        natural setting campground.

        Rick,
        A mini meeting down in Indiana might be fun too; I hear you live near
        that cave I took a boat ride through in total blackness...everything
        in there was albino. Just like the nearby albino squirrels that are
        famous in Olney, Illinois near the supposed Burrows Cave.
        Would be a fun long weekend, informal camping deal. I'd flea makret
        a day ahead for travel money and set up camp, food. You can do tour
        directing and help lead campfire talks to whoever shows up. Doesn't
        have to be a big group nor bear anyone expenses beyond travel costs.

        Whereever one, two people or a dozen amicable and noncompetitive
        persons are gathered....this makes a fine meeting. And progresses our
        globally-oriented, ecologically sound diffusion work in times which
        call for increasing haste to synergize our work.

        I suggest a profound book which might call to you, from the 80's:
        Apache-descendant, Ken Carey's "Return of the Bird Tribes". Perhaps
        you may find yourself in such quantum realms. I've no doubt many
        within our small ancient waterways group are in many ways affiliated
        with the return of teaching, leadaership and wisdom of these
        descendants.

        SisterSuz, Future Wise Elders of America

        --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Vincent Barrows
        <v_barrows@...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi Rick;
        > Thanks for talking with me again, and great show as always. The
        monks Mound response from the professional community is located here:
        >
        http://virtual.parkland.edu/ias/member_com/announcements/announcements
        .htm
        >
        > Here is a copy and paste of their specific repsonse.
        >
        > My Notes on the Monk's Mound Discussions at the Annual
        Conference: Paula Cross of IHPA was given the opportunity to address
        the IAS Board at our meeting of 14 September and she graciously
        accepted the charge. First, she noted that IHPA's slump stabilization
        plan was carefully worked out over a period of several years. This
        observation was well documented in the Saturday morning presentations
        as was the need for such a plan. Secondly, she observed that
        no "permitting" requirements had been violated and that in
        fact "permitting" did not apply to government agencies working on
        government land. Instead there is a protocol of "approval" that is
        required and that IHPA was very careful to comply with the protocol.
        Thirdly, her only concession to the voiced concerns of some Board
        members was that she allowed as how, from the perspective of IHPA,
        greater prior communication with the IAS would have been useful.
        Because Paula appeared to work hard at not directly responding to
        > questions about a re-established Cahokia Committee, I suggested
        that in the future IHPA offer a brief summary of planned events at
        the IAS annual meetings. She indicated that it was not within the
        range of her job description to provide such communications and that
        maybe we should talk to Anne Hacker of IHPA. Mark Wagner inquired
        when a final publication of results could be expected and the
        response was, "In a year of two." When no answer was extended to the
        question of where the material was to be published, I suggested that
        we offer a dedicated volume of IA in 2009 as a publication vehicle.
        The operational or field decisions regarding control over the
        activity of the hoe operator and how much and which of the
        undisturbed mound fill to remove remained glossed with the assertion
        that, "We had someone there all of the time keeping an eye on the
        mechanical excavation." The response to the question of whether this
        was at times only Dr. Kidder's graduate student volunteer
        > was, "Yes." The determination of not screening the undisturbed
        matrix was explained by the statement that "…over 90% of what was
        removed was material that had been deposited during previous mound
        slump repair activities." Apparently all of the material removed from
        the mound has been isolated and stockpiled, although there is no plan
        to screen it. It does appear that the geotechnic run-up to the
        ultimate choice of strategy of repair was well crafted. Also after
        the hoe work was completed, the hand work and data collection
        proceeded in accordance with IHPA published standards. At the
        Saturday morning paper session there was some further discussion of
        the Cahokia Committee. While Paula Cross did not contribute, Fellows
        Mark Esarey and John Kelly were pressed very hard by colleagues
        bearing concerns over the slump stabilization strategy and
        methodology. On balance, Kelly noted that if we, or anybody, wanted
        to know what was happening at Cahokia, we should join the
        > Cahokia Museum Society. However, the IAS's discussions and issues
        are with IHPA and not the project contractor and it is not clear
        whether this was an agency position statement or a personal, visceral
        response. Actually, as nearly as I could determine, IHPA really did
        not directly respond to questions and thoughts regarding re-
        establishing the Cahokia Committee. Questions were somehow just re-
        directed and thereby avoided. On review, my conclusion is that IHPA
        is opposed to the concept of the Cahokia Committee and would not
        willingly participate in its installation or respond to its
        recommendations. In fairness, as several Fellows have noted to me, no
        state or federal agency would willingly endorse an external oversight
        committee. I don't know how the IAS could compel IHPA's acquiescence
        to such a committee's presence. Given the current relatively
        apolitical posture of the IAS, it seems to me that participation
        would be entirely at IHPA' s pleasure and discretion. Lastly,
        > in all truthfulness, the IAS, as a voluntary association, is
        likely not capable of adequately and correctly assuming such
        responsibilities. Just look at the situation with our standing
        committees and their need to be recreated almost every time they are
        called to action. Let me state in conclusion that I fail to see how
        the IAS could force the IHPA (or IDOT, or IDNR, or the Shawnee
        National Forest, or the COE) to accept an external, archaeological
        oversight committee. I think that such a feat is theoretically
        possible, but it would require concerted political activity for which
        the organization has, in my perception, neither the heart, patience,
        nor skill. Our Board is continuing its discussions of the situation
        and will likely have a proposal available for comment in the near
        future. Stelle, President
        >
        > ---
        >
        > Incidentally, my review of the fiasco was recently published in
        the Wotanging Ikche, on Nanews.org in the Dec 15th issue.
        >
        > Thank you;
        > VInce Barrows
        >
        >
        > ---------------------------------
        > Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile.
        Try it now.
        >
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