Great Pyramid of Giza, John Anthony West, & Steve Garcia 1970's travels to Egyp
- Ancient Waterways Society members,
One day within the next few years I will use my Northwest Parent Pass
and fly alone to the present Nile River and Great Pyramid of Giza. I
know little of it but am being tutored.
If all twenty members here (and addl onlookers in the background)
were sitting around a campfire together with time to get to know each
other better along the banks of the Nile River together, I would
like you know know this additional background about one of our
members, Steve Garcia.
Most of you know I am a member and occational contributer of the
Great Pyramid of Giza Research Association. Steve Garcia, Pam Giese
and perhaps some of you others here are also affiliated with that
group. I occasionally do a bit of PR correspondence with the director
of the association and a few association Board members there, more
offline than through the Message Board. Writer/world researcher John
Anthony West was kind enough to send three email responses to me last
week, as mentioned in a prior post. I hope he will occasionally click
into our web site and your posts to see the integrity and ideas
behind the name of our group and global association. Anyone
unfamiliar with him, his official website is:
One response from pertains to the underwater sites off Japan, esp.
Yonaguni, as mentioned in an earlier post here. He also addressed
the 'Grand Canyon of the old Nile' article I keep mentioning here and
elsewhere (see AWS posts 271, 148, and interesting insight about the
Nile and Cayce by AWS member, Jamey Clark, Post #143).
One of the personal notes from John Anthony West last week related to
I don't think I ever got that email referring to Yonaguni. As you
probably know, Schoch and I are pretty much 100% convinced that it is
(alas!) totally natural.
Thanks for that link to the Grand Canyon article. Interesting, but
most of it not relevant to our work ... except that the refs to the
Prenile Phase, just prior to 12,500 BC could well be worth
following. I've fwded that on to Schoch.
PS. Thanks, to, for the offer of a tour of the MI waterways, but as
you might imagine, that is well off my customary beaten track,
though -who knows?- something could bring me out there some day.
Steve Garcia, another engineer and a member of Ancient Waterways from
Central Illinois who many of you recall contributed several recent
and insightful posts indicating considerable first-hand experience in
his research. I hope Steve doesn't mind, but he wrote a fascinating
post to the Giza message board last week that I am going to paste
into this post; also see direct link w/other corresponding posts by
Chris Dunn and others:
Giza association home page web link w/list of board members at bottom
of page is: http://www.gizapyramid.com/ (Click into Message Board).
Steve's post was late in the discussion and far down the list (forty
posts were sent to the message board in a few days). Neverthless, I
want Steve's descripton of travels to Egypt during his early 20's and
his insights on ancient machining placed in this message board as a
continuing introduction to this member. If Steve protests my
inclusion of his letter and I am out of town, Stan, please delete the
Some of you interested in the Nile Plateau and Giza may find these
ideas interesting. Steve's friend Christopher Dunn will be speaking
at the Ohio conference, as listed on conference brochure:
'Christopher Dunn, Author/Engineer - From Egypt to America: The
engineering miracles of the ancients'
Steve's post, scanned from the Great Pyramid of Giza Research
Association, tells of his travels to the not so heavily touristed
area of the Giza Plateau, back in the early 70's....
"Re(1): Giza Plateau Tunnels
Posted on August 30, 2007 at 01:34:40 AM by Steve Garcia
Coming into this discussion late, but better later than never. . .
Could they have cut the passages with copper tools? Obviously not,
but here is why I think it is a ludicrous idea.
My first contact with Chris Dunn was in regards to some cutting marks
I'd seen back in 1971 on one particular vertical shaft. It was, as I
recall, east of the GP, and possibly a little south, but I don't
remember it being south. It was between the GP and the drop-off,
which is not a large area.
I am an engineer now, but was just 22 at the time, and worked in the
engineering office of a large steel fabricating company at the time,
but was yet really qualified to assess what I was looking at. What I
saw, though, startled me, and in all the years since then, I have not
figured out what the heck I was looking at on that bright December
This was when the Russians were there, and the number of tourists
then was downright miniscule. The Giza complex was pretty much ours
for as long as we wanted it.
We rented a house nearby for about two months, and had all day almost
every day to wander and observe and absorb. As we strolled about that
day, curiosity led me to this vertical shaft, and I looked down into
it, as we all do when there. To me, even at the time, square shafts
meant one thing primarily to my future engineer's mind: they were not
bored. To get those flat sides and square corners, they had to use
some non-rotating cutting tools/heads. Round ones would have left
So, standing there, blithely pondering just how they would have
accomplished it, I noticed that the cutting marks were really weird.
Here are the characteristics I saw:
1. The cutting marks were large-radius skives on the vertical walls.
2. The cutting bit/tool was apparently attached to a swinging arm.
3. The radius of the arcs (and by inference the swinging arm) was
nearly as large as the shaft was wide. From my recollection, they
would have been in the range of 20"-35" radius, possibly even larger.
4. The centers of the arcs appeared to be off-center of the shaft
wall, so that the top tangency points of the arcs were very near the
SE corner of the shaft. (All of my clear recollections are that I was
looking mostly at the south wall of the shaft.)
4. The cuts basically dead-headed right into the corner. THIS is the
feature that threw me. I'll explain later...
5. Each cut was obviously made in one sweep of the arm that held the
6. The vertical distance between sweeps of the cutting arm was about
3/4", possibly as small as 1/2".
7. The arcs were NOT concentric, which is what my brain expected them
to be at first glance. It was the non-concentricity that drew my
attention in the first place. It clearly appeared that the cutting
mechanism was being advanced straight up or down a set distance after
each cut in order to make the next cut.
8. The arcs overlapped, but not by a lot.
9. The arcs overlapped more toward the bottom of the sweep than at
the top. I do not recall much about the lower portion of the sweeps,
as my attention was focused on the corner and the arcs dead-heading
into the corner.
10. The cross-sectional shape of each cut was a scallop - a portion
of a radius, with the depth of the apparent cut being about 1/16"-
11. The shaft wall was left relatively rough, though certainly as
functional as if it had been smooth and flat.
My take at the time was "That is a very odd set of cutting marks, and
it must have been a weird cutting apparatus to make them - and why
did the arcs dead-head INTO the corner?" I mentioned all these
questions to those with me. They took note of my perplexity, but I
did not think they grokked fully my confusion.
The dead-headed cuts were so different than any cuts I'd ever seen
(in my admittedly limited experience). Why would they have arranged a
cutting head to swing up and toward the corner, and then,
essentially, whack into the corner? The arc radius was so large, it
also seemed that the arm would not - by itself - have any mechanical
stiffness with which to dig into the wall - yet, there were the
marks, dug quite healthily into the wall face.
Okay - now all of this applies to this thread because of one factor
It certainly appeared to me that each cut was made with ONE sweep.
Making a cut that deep into the limestone takes a LOT of 'normal'
force, a very substantial pushing force along the sweep of the arc, a
lot of leverage, and a very strong and hard cutting bit (to withstand
the resultant wear).
This is quite similar in that respect to Chris Dunn's ultrasonic
drilling where the tool apparently advances 0.100" or so with each
rotation, which made him conclude that normal drilling was not used.
Essentially, in these cutting marks I see evidence that normal
materials and methods just do not hack it. Maybe this was also done
with ultrasonic cutting, but not with the same kind of rotary action.
I can envision a mechanism that would be able to make those cuts in
soft material. When I ramp that concept up for the requirements
listed in the previous paragraph, the mechanism gets to be extremely
substantial in my mind's eye.
The one thing I cannot envision is a material as soft as copper
making even one sweeping cut without giving up the ghost - in seconds
if not milliseconds. The limestone would simply scour the copper into
Could it be done with gentler cuts? IMHO, it is not at all possible.
I will post here a bit more on that aspect soon, but have to get to
bed. For now, every bit of the engineering aspect of it says "no", as
far as I can see.
One possibility that comes to mind is that maybe Chris' observations
about the ultrasonic drilling digging into the hard material more
easily than into the soft material can be applied to using copper as
a cutting tip:
Could copper be used as a cutting tip for ultrasonic machining?
Could copper, being soft, transmit the energy without being itself