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  • Ted Sojka
    This is being shared on the Old Copper Complex site and Ancient Waterways. If you like old copper artifacts, look at the article below. Ted
    Message 1 of 16 , Sep 15, 2013
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      This is being shared on the Old Copper Complex site and Ancient
      Waterways. If you like old copper artifacts, look at the article below.
      Ted

      http://csasi.org/2003_summer_journal/red_metal_poundings.htm
    • Chris Patenaude
      I still think the Nebra Star Disc should be elementally compared with N.Amn/Gt.Lakes components. They computed the copper down, once, to compare it with Middle
      Message 2 of 16 , Sep 15, 2013
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        I still think the Nebra Star Disc should be elementally compared with N.Amn/Gt.Lakes components.
        They computed the copper down, once, to compare it with Middle Eastern/Egyptian copper resources.
        They found that it did not match those. But I feel the theory testing did not go far enough and include
        western Atlantic sources for the copper.
        My thots.
        -crispy



        From: Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...>
        To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2013 8:48 AM
        Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site

        This is being shared on the Old Copper Complex site and Ancient 
        Waterways.  If you like old copper artifacts, look at the article below.
        Ted

        http://csasi.org/2003_summer_journal/red_metal_poundings.htm


        ------------------------------------

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      • wmsmithrock1
        Chris You make a good point on the Nebra disc composition. If we had the results they claim to have we could do it ourselves. I see a lot of items that could
        Message 3 of 16 , Sep 23, 2013
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          Chris

            You make a good point on the Nebra disc composition. If we had the results they claim to have we could do it ourselves. I see a lot of items that could be better identified and dated if proper lab work was performed, however it seems like the funding for this is always the first to go in slow economic times. 



          --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

          I still think the Nebra Star Disc should be elementally compared with N.Amn/Gt.Lakes components.
          They computed the copper down, once, to compare it with Middle Eastern/Egyptian copper resources.
          They found that it did not match those. But I feel the theory testing did not go far enough and include
          western Atlantic sources for the copper.
          My thots.
          -crispy



          From: Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...>
          To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2013 8:48 AM
          Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site

          This is being shared on the Old Copper Complex site and Ancient 
          Waterways.  If you like old copper artifacts, look at the article below.
          Ted

          http://csasi.org/2003_summer_journal/red_metal_poundings.htm


          ------------------------------------

          Yahoo! Groups Links

          <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancient_waterways_society/

          <*> Your email settings:
              Individual Email | Traditional

          <*> To change settings online go to:
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancient_waterways_society/join
              (Yahoo! ID required)

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              ancient_waterways_society-digest@yahoogroups.com
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        • Chris Patenaude
          First the will and wish to find out needs to exist. The question must be posed in some kind of irresistible, curiosity-inducing communication to the general
          Message 4 of 16 , Sep 25, 2013
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            First the will and wish to find out needs to exist.
            The question must be posed in some kind of irresistible, curiosity-inducing communication to the general public.
            Then a specific narrowing of the focus to one, digestible bite...the results of which should generate profit to the sponsor.
            Funding follows the money.

            Scott Wolter may have push-me-pull-u struggles with his producers, and the resulting generalized TV programming fraught with mis-information,
            but he's got the formula down and the public is perking up its ears, at last.
            Lewis & Clark didn't get a lot of their journey right, their maps had major gaps,
            they almost died several times. But their names are forever forged in history.

            Barry Fell and Scott Wolter are pioneers in the field of diffusion and the New History. Others will surely come along and make far better progress for humanity's awareness. But the first ones are the names that are remembered.
            -c



            From: "wmsmithrock1@..." <wmsmithrock1@...>
            To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 10:07 AM
            Subject: RE: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site



            Chris
              You make a good point on the Nebra disc composition. If we had the results they claim to have we could do it ourselves. I see a lot of items that could be better identified and dated if proper lab work was performed, however it seems like the funding for this is always the first to go in slow economic times. 


            --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

            I still think the Nebra Star Disc should be elementally compared with N.Amn/Gt.Lakes components.
            They computed the copper down, once, to compare it with Middle Eastern/Egyptian copper resources.
            They found that it did not match those. But I feel the theory testing did not go far enough and include
            western Atlantic sources for the copper.
            My thots.
            -crispy



            From: Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...>
            To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2013 8:48 AM
            Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site

            This is being shared on the Old Copper Complex site and Ancient 
            Waterways.  If you like old copper artifacts, look at the article below.
            Ted

            http://csasi.org/2003_summer_journal/red_metal_poundings.htm


            ------------------------------------

            Yahoo! Groups Links

            <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancient_waterways_society/

            <*> Your email settings:
                Individual Email | Traditional

            <*> To change settings online go to:
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancient_waterways_society/join
                (Yahoo! ID required)

            <*> To change settings via email:
                ancient_waterways_society-digest@yahoogroups.com
                ancient_waterways_society-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

            <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                ancient_waterways_society-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

            <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
                http://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/







          • william smith
            Chris   It is ok to put Lewis and Clark, Fell and Wolter in the same class that states their name is forged into history, however Lewis and Clark as well as
            Message 5 of 16 , Sep 25, 2013
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              Chris
                It is ok to put Lewis and Clark, Fell and Wolter in the same class that states their name is forged into history, however Lewis and Clark as well as Fell worked with the academics and politics where Wolter speaks against them when they challenge his so called facts. Wolter offered the property owner $50,000 for the Kansas City Slater Rune Stone so he could link it to the Templars. It took the academics less than one day to determine this carving was made after 1888. How does Wolter explain the mechanical wear line on the KRS? On what December 21st will we see the sun shine through the south window of the Newport tower to highlight the oval stone? Why would he pick just a few mooring stone holes to find the exact location of the KRS and not use the 100s of others that exist? Are you aware that the Mystery stone of New Hampshire is like the one used in Admiral Sommers lodestone compass which is in a museum in Bermuda?

              From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
              To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2013 4:43 PM
              Subject: Re: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
               
              First the will and wish to find out needs to exist. The question must be posed in some kind of irresistible, curiosity-inducing communication to the general public. Then a specific narrowing of the focus to one, digestible bite...the results of which should generate profit to the sponsor. Funding follows the money. Scott Wolter may have push-me-pull-u struggles with his producers, and the resulting generalized TV programming fraught with mis-information, but he's got the formula down and the public is perking up its ears, at last. Lewis & Clark didn't get a lot of their journey right, their maps had major gaps, they almost died several times. But their names are forever forged in history. Barry Fell and Scott Wolter are pioneers in the field of diffusion and the New History. Others will surely come along and make far better progress for humanity's awareness. But the first ones are the names that are remembered. -c


              From: "wmsmithrock1@..." <wmsmithrock1@...>
              To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 10:07 AM
              Subject: RE: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
              Chris
                You make a good point on the Nebra disc composition. If we had the results they claim to have we could do it ourselves. I see a lot of items that could be better identified and dated if proper lab work was performed, however it seems like the funding for this is always the first to go in slow economic times. 
              --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
              I still think the Nebra Star Disc should be elementally compared with N.Amn/Gt.Lakes components. They computed the copper down, once, to compare it with Middle Eastern/Egyptian copper resources. They found that it did not match those. But I feel the theory testing did not go far enough and include western Atlantic sources for the copper. My thots. -crispy


              From: Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...>
              To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2013 8:48 AM
              Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
              This is being shared on the Old Copper Complex site and Ancient  Waterways.  If you like old copper artifacts, look at the article below. Ted http://csasi.org/2003_summer_journal/red_metal_poundings.htm ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancient_waterways_society/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancient_waterways_society/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     ancient_waterways_society-digest@yahoogroups.com     ancient_waterways_society-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     ancient_waterways_society-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/
            • David S Brody
              Careful, William. You are entitled to your own opinions (however much some of us may snicker), but you are not entitled to your own facts. Especially when
              Message 6 of 16 , Sep 25, 2013
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                Careful, William.  You are entitled to your own opinions (however much some of us may snicker), but you are not entitled to your own facts.  Especially when the assertion of those facts could be considered libelous.  Presumably you have evidence for your assertion that “Wolter offered the property owner $50,000 for the Kansas City Slater Rune Stone so he could link it to the Templars.”  If not, I suggest you may want to remove or redact this post…

                 


                From: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com [mailto: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of william smith
                Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2013 9:54 PM
                To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site

                 

                 

                Chris

                  It is ok to put Lewis and Clark, Fell and Wolter in the same class that states their name is forged into history, however Lewis and Clark as well as Fell worked with the academics and politics where Wolter speaks against them when they challenge his so called facts. Wolter offered the property owner $50,000 for the Kansas City Slater Rune Stone so he could link it to the Templars. It took the academics less than one day to determine this carving was made after 1888. How does Wolter explain the mechanical wear line on the KRS? On what December 21st will we see the sun shine through the south window of the Newport tower to highlight the oval stone? Why would he pick just a few mooring stone holes to find the exact location of the KRS and not use the 100s of others that exist? Are you aware that the Mystery stone of New Hampshire is like the one used in Admiral Sommers lodestone compass which is in a museum in Bermuda ?

                 

                From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
                To: " ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com " < ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com >
                Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2013 4:43 PM
                Subject: Re: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site

                 

                First the will and wish to find out needs to exist. The question must be posed in some kind of irresistible, curiosity-inducing communication to the general public. Then a specific narrowing of the focus to one, digestible bite...the results of which should generate profit to the sponsor. Funding follows the money. Scott Wolter may have push-me-pull-u struggles with his producers, and the resulting generalized TV programming fraught with mis-information, but he's got the formula down and the public is perking up its ears, at last. Lewis & Clark didn't get a lot of their journey right, their maps had major gaps, they almost died several times. But their names are forever forged in history. Barry Fell and Scott Wolter are pioneers in the field of diffusion and the New History. Others will surely come along and make far better progress for humanity's awareness. But the first ones are the names that are remembered. -c

                 

                 

                From: "wmsmithrock1@..." <wmsmithrock1@...>
                To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 10:07 AM
                Subject: RE: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site

                Chris

                  You make a good point on the Nebra disc composition. If we had the results they claim to have we could do it ourselves. I see a lot of items that could be better identified and dated if proper lab work was performed, however it seems like the funding for this is always the first to go in slow economic times. 

                --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com , < ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com > wrote:

                I still think the Nebra Star Disc should be elementally compared with N.Amn/Gt.Lakes components. They computed the copper down, once, to compare it with Middle Eastern/Egyptian copper resources. They found that it did not match those. But I feel the theory testing did not go far enough and include western Atlantic sources for the copper. My thots. -crispy

                 

                 

                From: Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...>
                To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2013 8:48 AM
                Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site

                This is being shared on the Old Copper Complex site and Ancient  Waterways.  If you like old copper artifacts, look at the article below. Ted http://csasi.org/2003_summer_journal/red_metal_poundings.htm ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancient_waterways_society/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancient_waterways_society/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     ancient_waterways_society-digest@yahoogroups.com     ancient_waterways_society-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     ancient_waterways_society-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/

              • Chris Patenaude
                I did not say, anywhere, that I agree with Scott s total findings. You knit-pick over the broader big picture I was referring to. Bottom line factoid we all
                Message 7 of 16 , Oct 3, 2013
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                  I did not say, anywhere, that I agree with Scott's total findings. You knit-pick over the broader "big picture" I was referring to.
                  Bottom line factoid we all agree on... History is NOT what has been taken for granted and dished up like propaganda in the state-run educational system.
                  It has taken 6 decades for the grassroots efforts to gain enough data to take a stand. MY point was that errors ARE made when a field of study or mission of enlightenment is initially undertaken. That's how we learn... by trial and error.

                  I do not class Scott Wolter on a level with the other names i mentioned as 'discoverers'... Scott is working with thoughts and ideas brought to him and his producers, by dozens of other avocational explorers. The point I am making is that Scott is a pioneer in the media awareness department, one of the first persons with the guts to put "it" out there and create enough noise that the PUBLIC, not the 'specialists' are finally hearing a new message. Everyone needs a conviction in order to feel they have a platform or deck to branch out from. I will not begrudge Wolter his own individual sense of starting point. It's what we do with the forward motion, that involves the others along our path, that will prove, in the end, where we have traveled. He's working out a labyrinth,  he's gonna bump into a few dead ends. In that way, we'll be making a map and know other ways to explore that he couldn't reach. We're all team in the learning curve.
                  -chris



                  From: william smith <wmsmithrock1@...>
                  To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2013 8:53 PM
                  Subject: Re: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site



                  Chris
                    It is ok to put Lewis and Clark, Fell and Wolter in the same class that states their name is forged into history, however Lewis and Clark as well as Fell worked with the academics and politics where Wolter speaks against them when they challenge his so called facts. Wolter offered the property owner $50,000 for the Kansas City Slater Rune Stone so he could link it to the Templars. It took the academics less than one day to determine this carving was made after 1888. How does Wolter explain the mechanical wear line on the KRS? On what December 21st will we see the sun shine through the south window of the Newport tower to highlight the oval stone? Why would he pick just a few mooring stone holes to find the exact location of the KRS and not use the 100s of others that exist? Are you aware that the Mystery stone of New Hampshire is like the one used in Admiral Sommers lodestone compass which is in a museum in Bermuda?

                  From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
                  To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2013 4:43 PM
                  Subject: Re: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
                   
                  First the will and wish to find out needs to exist. The question must be posed in some kind of irresistible, curiosity-inducing communication to the general public. Then a specific narrowing of the focus to one, digestible bite...the results of which should generate profit to the sponsor. Funding follows the money. Scott Wolter may have push-me-pull-u struggles with his producers, and the resulting generalized TV programming fraught with mis-information, but he's got the formula down and the public is perking up its ears, at last. Lewis & Clark didn't get a lot of their journey right, their maps had major gaps, they almost died several times. But their names are forever forged in history. Barry Fell and Scott Wolter are pioneers in the field of diffusion and the New History. Others will surely come along and make far better progress for humanity's awareness. But the first ones are the names that are remembered. -c


                  From: "wmsmithrock1@..." <wmsmithrock1@...>
                  To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 10:07 AM
                  Subject: RE: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
                  Chris
                    You make a good point on the Nebra disc composition. If we had the results they claim to have we could do it ourselves. I see a lot of items that could be better identified and dated if proper lab work was performed, however it seems like the funding for this is always the first to go in slow economic times. 
                  --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                  I still think the Nebra Star Disc should be elementally compared with N.Amn/Gt.Lakes components. They computed the copper down, once, to compare it with Middle Eastern/Egyptian copper resources. They found that it did not match those. But I feel the theory testing did not go far enough and include western Atlantic sources for the copper. My thots. -crispy


                  From: Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...>
                  To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2013 8:48 AM
                  Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
                  This is being shared on the Old Copper Complex site and Ancient  Waterways.  If you like old copper artifacts, look at the article below. Ted http://csasi.org/2003_summer_journal/red_metal_poundings.htm ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancient_waterways_society/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancient_waterways_society/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     ancient_waterways_society-digest@yahoogroups.com     ancient_waterways_society-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     ancient_waterways_society-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/




                • william smith
                  Hi Chris   I was not aware of any mistakes made by Lewis or Clark or for that matter Fell as you say. Can you explain what mistakes they made as compared to
                  Message 8 of 16 , Oct 3, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi Chris
                      I was not aware of any mistakes made by Lewis or Clark or for that matter Fell as you say. Can you explain what mistakes they made as compared to their mission objectives?
                     

                    From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
                    To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, October 3, 2013 5:14 PM
                    Subject: Re: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
                     
                    I did not say, anywhere, that I agree with Scott's total findings. You knit-pick over the broader "big picture" I was referring to. Bottom line factoid we all agree on... History is NOT what has been taken for granted and dished up like propaganda in the state-run educational system. It has taken 6 decades for the grassroots efforts to gain enough data to take a stand. MY point was that errors ARE made when a field of study or mission of enlightenment is initially undertaken. That's how we learn... by trial and error. I do not class Scott Wolter on a level with the other names i mentioned as 'discoverers'... Scott is working with thoughts and ideas brought to him and his producers, by dozens of other avocational explorers. The point I am making is that Scott is a pioneer in the media awareness department, one of the first persons with the guts to put "it" out there and create enough noise that the PUBLIC, not the 'specialists' are finally hearing a new message. Everyone needs a conviction in order to feel they have a platform or deck to branch out from. I will not begrudge Wolter his own individual sense of starting point. It's what we do with the forward motion, that involves the others along our path, that will prove, in the end, where we have traveled. He's working out a labyrinth,  he's gonna bump into a few dead ends. In that way, we'll be making a map and know other ways to explore that he couldn't reach. We're all team in the learning curve. -chris


                    From: william smith <wmsmithrock1@...>
                    To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2013 8:53 PM
                    Subject: Re: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
                    Chris
                      It is ok to put Lewis and Clark, Fell and Wolter in the same class that states their name is forged into history, however Lewis and Clark as well as Fell worked with the academics and politics where Wolter speaks against them when they challenge his so called facts. Wolter offered the property owner $50,000 for the Kansas City Slater Rune Stone so he could link it to the Templars. It took the academics less than one day to determine this carving was made after 1888. How does Wolter explain the mechanical wear line on the KRS? On what December 21st will we see the sun shine through the south window of the Newport tower to highlight the oval stone? Why would he pick just a few mooring stone holes to find the exact location of the KRS and not use the 100s of others that exist? Are you aware that the Mystery stone of New Hampshire is like the one used in Admiral Sommers lodestone compass which is in a museum in Bermuda?

                    From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
                    To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2013 4:43 PM
                    Subject: Re: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
                     
                    First the will and wish to find out needs to exist. The question must be posed in some kind of irresistible, curiosity-inducing communication to the general public. Then a specific narrowing of the focus to one, digestible bite...the results of which should generate profit to the sponsor. Funding follows the money. Scott Wolter may have push-me-pull-u struggles with his producers, and the resulting generalized TV programming fraught with mis-information, but he's got the formula down and the public is perking up its ears, at last. Lewis & Clark didn't get a lot of their journey right, their maps had major gaps, they almost died several times. But their names are forever forged in history. Barry Fell and Scott Wolter are pioneers in the field of diffusion and the New History. Others will surely come along and make far better progress for humanity's awareness. But the first ones are the names that are remembered. -c


                    From: "wmsmithrock1@..." <wmsmithrock1@...>
                    To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 10:07 AM
                    Subject: RE: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
                    Chris
                      You make a good point on the Nebra disc composition. If we had the results they claim to have we could do it ourselves. I see a lot of items that could be better identified and dated if proper lab work was performed, however it seems like the funding for this is always the first to go in slow economic times. 
                    --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                    I still think the Nebra Star Disc should be elementally compared with N.Amn/Gt.Lakes components. They computed the copper down, once, to compare it with Middle Eastern/Egyptian copper resources. They found that it did not match those. But I feel the theory testing did not go far enough and include western Atlantic sources for the copper. My thots. -crispy


                    From: Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...>
                    To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2013 8:48 AM
                    Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
                    This is being shared on the Old Copper Complex site and Ancient  Waterways.  If you like old copper artifacts, look at the article below. Ted http://csasi.org/2003_summer_journal/red_metal_poundings.htm ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancient_waterways_society/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancient_waterways_society/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     ancient_waterways_society-digest@yahoogroups.com     ancient_waterways_society-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     ancient_waterways_society-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/
                  • ozmanusaa
                    First, the Lewis and Clark Expedition (as we know it) was a MILITARY MISSION by the Corps of Discovery, outfitted salaried, and answering to Secretary of War,
                    Message 9 of 16 , Oct 5, 2013
                    • 0 Attachment

                      First, the Lewis and Clark Expedition (as we know it) was a MILITARY MISSION by the Corps of Discovery, outfitted salaried, and answering to Secretary of War, under Jefferson, Henry Knox. It had almost nothing to do with acquiring knowledge or reporting new species or any other "noble" purpose. It was to stake a claim on the Oregon Country and let the tribes along the way that those tribes now answered to a new power. 
                      In this case, the term "discovery" in Corps of Discovery was designed to comply with the legal meaning of land discovery and subsequent land claim in international circles. It was the first major step in the Doctrine of Discovery and Manifest Destiny.. .
                      Lewis carried passports received from the French and English ambassadors in case they were challenged near territories claimed by either country, but the Spanish ambassador refused to issue one and the Spanish sent 4 different military expeditions trying to find and detain the Corps of Discovery.
                      At the same time that Lewis and Clark were "exploring" in present day Idaho, Captain Albert Pike was planting a US flag on Pikes Peak in territory claimed by the Spanish, also under orders from Jefferson and Knox.
                      Lewis and Jefferson were planning the route for the Corps of Discovery in 1794, nearly a full decade before the Louisiana Purchase occurred. Yet we're taught Jefferson and Madison were surprised by Bonaparte's offer for the sale of that territory.
                      Bottom line: Don't believe everything in your history books



                      ---In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                      Hi Chris
                        I was not aware of any mistakes made by Lewis or Clark or for that matter Fell as you say. Can you explain what mistakes they made as compared to their mission objectives?
                       

                      From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
                      To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Thursday, October 3, 2013 5:14 PM
                      Subject: Re: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
                       
                      I did not say, anywhere, that I agree with Scott's total findings. You knit-pick over the broader "big picture" I was referring to. Bottom line factoid we all agree on... History is NOT what has been taken for granted and dished up like propaganda in the state-run educational system. It has taken 6 decades for the grassroots efforts to gain enough data to take a stand. MY point was that errors ARE made when a field of study or mission of enlightenment is initially undertaken. That's how we learn... by trial and error. I do not class Scott Wolter on a level with the other names i mentioned as 'discoverers'... Scott is working with thoughts and ideas brought to him and his producers, by dozens of other avocational explorers. The point I am making is that Scott is a pioneer in the media awareness department, one of the first persons with the guts to put "it" out there and create enough noise that the PUBLIC, not the 'specialists' are finally hearing a new message. Everyone needs a conviction in order to feel they have a platform or deck to branch out from. I will not begrudge Wolter his own individual sense of starting point. It's what we do with the forward motion, that involves the others along our path, that will prove, in the end, where we have traveled. He's working out a labyrinth,  he's gonna bump into a few dead ends. In that way, we'll be making a map and know other ways to explore that he couldn't reach. We're all team in the learning curve. -chris


                      From: william smith <wmsmithrock1@...>
                      To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2013 8:53 PM
                      Subject: Re: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
                      Chris
                        It is ok to put Lewis and Clark, Fell and Wolter in the same class that states their name is forged into history, however Lewis and Clark as well as Fell worked with the academics and politics where Wolter speaks against them when they challenge his so called facts. Wolter offered the property owner $50,000 for the Kansas City Slater Rune Stone so he could link it to the Templars. It took the academics less than one day to determine this carving was made after 1888. How does Wolter explain the mechanical wear line on the KRS? On what December 21st will we see the sun shine through the south window of the Newport tower to highlight the oval stone? Why would he pick just a few mooring stone holes to find the exact location of the KRS and not use the 100s of others that exist? Are you aware that the Mystery stone of New Hampshire is like the one used in Admiral Sommers lodestone compass which is in a museum in Bermuda?

                      From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
                      To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2013 4:43 PM
                      Subject: Re: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
                       
                      First the will and wish to find out needs to exist. The question must be posed in some kind of irresistible, curiosity-inducing communication to the general public. Then a specific narrowing of the focus to one, digestible bite...the results of which should generate profit to the sponsor. Funding follows the money. Scott Wolter may have push-me-pull-u struggles with his producers, and the resulting generalized TV programming fraught with mis-information, but he's got the formula down and the public is perking up its ears, at last. Lewis & Clark didn't get a lot of their journey right, their maps had major gaps, they almost died several times. But their names are forever forged in history. Barry Fell and Scott Wolter are pioneers in the field of diffusion and the New History. Others will surely come along and make far better progress for humanity's awareness. But the first ones are the names that are remembered. -c


                      From: "wmsmithrock1@..." <wmsmithrock1@...>
                      To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 10:07 AM
                      Subject: RE: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
                      Chris
                        You make a good point on the Nebra disc composition. If we had the results they claim to have we could do it ourselves. I see a lot of items that could be better identified and dated if proper lab work was performed, however it seems like the funding for this is always the first to go in slow economic times. 
                      --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                      I still think the Nebra Star Disc should be elementally compared with N.Amn/Gt.Lakes components. They computed the copper down, once, to compare it with Middle Eastern/Egyptian copper resources. They found that it did not match those. But I feel the theory testing did not go far enough and include western Atlantic sources for the copper. My thots. -crispy


                      From: Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...>
                      To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2013 8:48 AM
                      Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
                      This is being shared on the Old Copper Complex site and Ancient  Waterways.  If you like old copper artifacts, look at the article below. Ted http://csasi.org/2003_summer_journal/red_metal_poundings.htm ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancient_waterways_society/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancient_waterways_society/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     ancient_waterways_society-digest@yahoogroups.com     ancient_waterways_society-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     ancient_waterways_society-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/
                    • Ted Sojka
                      It was documented in Steven Ambrose s book that Jefferson wanted them to collect knowledge of medicine, birthing methods, treatments for diseases along his
                      Message 10 of 16 , Oct 5, 2013
                      • 0 Attachment
                        It was documented in Steven Ambrose's book that Jefferson wanted them to collect knowledge of medicine, birthing methods, treatments for diseases along his trip.  It was not their main mission but one they should not ignore as they travelled to the Pacific.  My college classmate and friend is a descendant of the two Ordways on the expedition.  John Ordway's journals fill out a lot of detail on days when Lewis was down with depression and the stress of the trip.   They are listed on the pay roll when the trip ended and they were back in St. Louis.

                        Ted
                        On Oct 5, 2013, at 4:57 PM, <ozman@...> wrote:

                         

                        First, the Lewis and Clark Expedition (as we know it) was a MILITARY MISSION by the Corps of Discovery, outfitted salaried, and answering to Secretary of War, under Jefferson, Henry Knox. It had almost nothing to do with acquiring knowledge or reporting new species or any other "noble" purpose. It was to stake a claim on the Oregon Country and let the tribes along the way that those tribes now answered to a new power. 
                        In this case, the term "discovery" in Corps of Discovery was designed to comply with the legal meaning of land discovery and subsequent land claim in international circles. It was the first major step in the Doctrine of Discovery and Manifest Destiny.. .
                        Lewis carried passports received from the French and English ambassadors in case they were challenged near territories claimed by either country, but the Spanish ambassador refused to issue one and the Spanish sent 4 different military expeditions trying to find and detain the Corps of Discovery.
                        At the same time that Lewis and Clark were "exploring" in present day Idaho, Captain Albert Pike was planting a US flag on Pikes Peak in territory claimed by the Spanish, also under orders from Jefferson and Knox.
                        Lewis and Jefferson were planning the route for the Corps of Discovery in 1794, nearly a full decade before the Louisiana Purchase occurred. Yet we're taught Jefferson and Madison were surprised by Bonaparte's offer for the sale of that territory.
                        Bottom line: Don't believe everything in your history books



                        ---In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                        Hi Chris
                          I was not aware of any mistakes made by Lewis or Clark or for that matter Fell as you say. Can you explain what mistakes they made as compared to their mission objectives?
                         

                        From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
                        To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Thursday, October 3, 2013 5:14 PM
                        Subject: Re: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
                         
                        I did not say, anywhere, that I agree with Scott's total findings. You knit-pick over the broader "big picture" I was referring to. Bottom line factoid we all agree on... History is NOT what has been taken for granted and dished up like propaganda in the state-run educational system. It has taken 6 decades for the grassroots efforts to gain enough data to take a stand. MY point was that errors ARE made when a field of study or mission of enlightenment is initially undertaken. That's how we learn... by trial and error. I do not class Scott Wolter on a level with the other names i mentioned as 'discoverers'... Scott is working with thoughts and ideas brought to him and his producers, by dozens of other avocational explorers. The point I am making is that Scott is a pioneer in the media awareness department, one of the first persons with the guts to put "it" out there and create enough noise that the PUBLIC, not the 'specialists' are finally hearing a new message. Everyone needs a conviction in order to feel they have a platform or deck to branch out from. I will not begrudge Wolter his own individual sense of starting point. It's what we do with the forward motion, that involves the others along our path, that will prove, in the end, where we have traveled. He's working out a labyrinth,  he's gonna bump into a few dead ends. In that way, we'll be making a map and know other ways to explore that he couldn't reach. We're all team in the learning curve. -chris


                        From: william smith <wmsmithrock1@...>
                        To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2013 8:53 PM
                        Subject: Re: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
                        Chris
                          It is ok to put Lewis and Clark, Fell and Wolter in the same class that states their name is forged into history, however Lewis and Clark as well as Fell worked with the academics and politics where Wolter speaks against them when they challenge his so called facts. Wolter offered the property owner $50,000 for the Kansas City Slater Rune Stone so he could link it to the Templars. It took the academics less than one day to determine this carving was made after 1888. How does Wolter explain the mechanical wear line on the KRS? On what December 21st will we see the sun shine through the south window of the Newport tower to highlight the oval stone? Why would he pick just a few mooring stone holes to find the exact location of the KRS and not use the 100s of others that exist? Are you aware that the Mystery stone of New Hampshire is like the one used in Admiral Sommers lodestone compass which is in a museum in Bermuda?

                        From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
                        To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2013 4:43 PM
                        Subject: Re: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
                         
                        First the will and wish to find out needs to exist. The question must be posed in some kind of irresistible, curiosity-inducing communication to the general public. Then a specific narrowing of the focus to one, digestible bite...the results of which should generate profit to the sponsor. Funding follows the money. Scott Wolter may have push-me-pull-u struggles with his producers, and the resulting generalized TV programming fraught with mis-information, but he's got the formula down and the public is perking up its ears, at last. Lewis & Clark didn't get a lot of their journey right, their maps had major gaps, they almost died several times. But their names are forever forged in history. Barry Fell and Scott Wolter are pioneers in the field of diffusion and the New History. Others will surely come along and make far better progress for humanity's awareness. But the first ones are the names that are remembered. -c


                        From: "wmsmithrock1@..." <wmsmithrock1@...>
                        To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 10:07 AM
                        Subject: RE: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
                        Chris
                          You make a good point on the Nebra disc composition. If we had the results they claim to have we could do it ourselves. I see a lot of items that could be better identified and dated if proper lab work was performed, however it seems like the funding for this is always the first to go in slow economic times. 
                        --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                        I still think the Nebra Star Disc should be elementally compared with N.Amn/Gt.Lakes components. They computed the copper down, once, to compare it with Middle Eastern/Egyptian copper resources. They found that it did not match those. But I feel the theory testing did not go far enough and include western Atlantic sources for the copper. My thots. -crispy


                        From: Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...>
                        To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2013 8:48 AM
                        Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
                        This is being shared on the Old Copper Complex site and Ancient  Waterways.  If you like old copper artifacts, look at the article below. Ted http://csasi.org/2003_summer_journal/red_metal_poundings.htm ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancient_waterways_society/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancient_waterways_society/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     ancient_waterways_society-digest@yahoogroups.com     ancient_waterways_society-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     ancient_waterways_society-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/


                      • Chris Finefrock
                        Hello, Sorry to chime in here as I have much to learn, but for fun am responding. Forgive me if I am incorrect in any of this but it s my understanding that
                        Message 11 of 16 , Oct 5, 2013
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hello,

                          Sorry to chime in here as I have much to learn, but for fun am responding. Forgive me if I am incorrect in any of this but it's my understanding that Dr. Fell did make some mistakes compared to his mission objectives. I own all of his books and he is obviously one of the most important people in our niche for his incredible contributions.

                          Dr. Fell received a couple of photos of Burrows Cave pieces, could not read the script, and immediately declared them a hoax. He did not examine the thousands of rock art themselves other than looking at a couple of photos.  His reaction was almost identical to a century earlier, a professor who glanced at a few photos of the Michigan Tablets and could not read them and declared them a fake.  Thank goodness for Henrietta Mertz's work!!!   This professor did the exact same thing as Dr. Fell and told his followers that the "Burrows Cave rocks" were modern forgeries, because he could not read the script. This is unfortunately "ipsi dicit" (unproven conclusions by someone in authority that is accepted without challenge). 

                          I had a dream a month ago and Dr. Barry Fell (yes it was 100% for sure Dr. Fell) was serving me a smoothy at a yogurt stand in a mall. We talked for what seemed like a minute but I don't remember what we talked about.  He looked young, healthy, about fifty and it was a dream I will never forget.  I have an INCREDIBLE amount of respect for what Dr. Fell has done for our niche, and would do ANYTHING to have met him, but like many of us, we make mistakes in life in sometimes thinking that we know everything, or if information doesn't jive with our beliefs we discard it. 

                          Any basic data must be looked into using the SCIENTIFIC METHOD. There is no room for dogma or ipsi dicit.  Evidence must not be discarded and data must not be filtered out if it does not fit our preconceived beliefs.  If the results of a thorough analysis contradicts out previous beliefs, we are obligated to change out beliefs. 

                          Thanks for allowing this email to be sent Ancient Waterways. Any feedback pro or con is appreciated.  

                          Sincerely,

                          Chris  

                          P.S. Thanks Dr. Jim for some of your very smart words.



                          On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 3:53 PM, Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...> wrote:
                           

                          It was documented in Steven Ambrose's book that Jefferson wanted them to collect knowledge of medicine, birthing methods, treatments for diseases along his trip.  It was not their main mission but one they should not ignore as they travelled to the Pacific.  My college classmate and friend is a descendant of the two Ordways on the expedition.  John Ordway's journals fill out a lot of detail on days when Lewis was down with depression and the stress of the trip.   They are listed on the pay roll when the trip ended and they were back in St. Louis.


                          Ted

                          On Oct 5, 2013, at 4:57 PM, <ozman@...> wrote:

                           

                          First, the Lewis and Clark Expedition (as we know it) was a MILITARY MISSION by the Corps of Discovery, outfitted salaried, and answering to Secretary of War, under Jefferson, Henry Knox. It had almost nothing to do with acquiring knowledge or reporting new species or any other "noble" purpose. It was to stake a claim on the Oregon Country and let the tribes along the way that those tribes now answered to a new power. 
                          In this case, the term "discovery" in Corps of Discovery was designed to comply with the legal meaning of land discovery and subsequent land claim in international circles. It was the first major step in the Doctrine of Discovery and Manifest Destiny.. .
                          Lewis carried passports received from the French and English ambassadors in case they were challenged near territories claimed by either country, but the Spanish ambassador refused to issue one and the Spanish sent 4 different military expeditions trying to find and detain the Corps of Discovery.
                          At the same time that Lewis and Clark were "exploring" in present day Idaho, Captain Albert Pike was planting a US flag on Pikes Peak in territory claimed by the Spanish, also under orders from Jefferson and Knox.
                          Lewis and Jefferson were planning the route for the Corps of Discovery in 1794, nearly a full decade before the Louisiana Purchase occurred. Yet we're taught Jefferson and Madison were surprised by Bonaparte's offer for the sale of that territory.
                          Bottom line: Don't believe everything in your history books



                          ---In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                          Hi Chris
                            I was not aware of any mistakes made by Lewis or Clark or for that matter Fell as you say. Can you explain what mistakes they made as compared to their mission objectives?
                           

                          From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
                          To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Thursday, October 3, 2013 5:14 PM
                          Subject: Re: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
                           
                          I did not say, anywhere, that I agree with Scott's total findings. You knit-pick over the broader "big picture" I was referring to. Bottom line factoid we all agree on... History is NOT what has been taken for granted and dished up like propaganda in the state-run educational system. It has taken 6 decades for the grassroots efforts to gain enough data to take a stand. MY point was that errors ARE made when a field of study or mission of enlightenment is initially undertaken. That's how we learn... by trial and error. I do not class Scott Wolter on a level with the other names i mentioned as 'discoverers'... Scott is working with thoughts and ideas brought to him and his producers, by dozens of other avocational explorers. The point I am making is that Scott is a pioneer in the media awareness department, one of the first persons with the guts to put "it" out there and create enough noise that the PUBLIC, not the 'specialists' are finally hearing a new message. Everyone needs a conviction in order to feel they have a platform or deck to branch out from. I will not begrudge Wolter his own individual sense of starting point. It's what we do with the forward motion, that involves the others along our path, that will prove, in the end, where we have traveled. He's working out a labyrinth,  he's gonna bump into a few dead ends. In that way, we'll be making a map and know other ways to explore that he couldn't reach. We're all team in the learning curve. -chris


                          From: william smith <wmsmithrock1@...>
                          To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2013 8:53 PM
                          Subject: Re: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
                          Chris
                            It is ok to put Lewis and Clark, Fell and Wolter in the same class that states their name is forged into history, however Lewis and Clark as well as Fell worked with the academics and politics where Wolter speaks against them when they challenge his so called facts. Wolter offered the property owner $50,000 for the Kansas City Slater Rune Stone so he could link it to the Templars. It took the academics less than one day to determine this carving was made after 1888. How does Wolter explain the mechanical wear line on the KRS? On what December 21st will we see the sun shine through the south window of the Newport tower to highlight the oval stone? Why would he pick just a few mooring stone holes to find the exact location of the KRS and not use the 100s of others that exist? Are you aware that the Mystery stone of New Hampshire is like the one used in Admiral Sommers lodestone compass which is in a museum in Bermuda?

                          From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
                          To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2013 4:43 PM
                          Subject: Re: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
                           
                          First the will and wish to find out needs to exist. The question must be posed in some kind of irresistible, curiosity-inducing communication to the general public. Then a specific narrowing of the focus to one, digestible bite...the results of which should generate profit to the sponsor. Funding follows the money. Scott Wolter may have push-me-pull-u struggles with his producers, and the resulting generalized TV programming fraught with mis-information, but he's got the formula down and the public is perking up its ears, at last. Lewis & Clark didn't get a lot of their journey right, their maps had major gaps, they almost died several times. But their names are forever forged in history. Barry Fell and Scott Wolter are pioneers in the field of diffusion and the New History. Others will surely come along and make far better progress for humanity's awareness. But the first ones are the names that are remembered. -c


                          From: "wmsmithrock1@..." <wmsmithrock1@...>
                          To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 10:07 AM
                          Subject: RE: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
                          Chris
                            You make a good point on the Nebra disc composition. If we had the results they claim to have we could do it ourselves. I see a lot of items that could be better identified and dated if proper lab work was performed, however it seems like the funding for this is always the first to go in slow economic times. 
                          --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                          I still think the Nebra Star Disc should be elementally compared with N.Amn/Gt.Lakes components. They computed the copper down, once, to compare it with Middle Eastern/Egyptian copper resources. They found that it did not match those. But I feel the theory testing did not go far enough and include western Atlantic sources for the copper. My thots. -crispy


                          From: Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...>
                          To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2013 8:48 AM
                          Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
                          This is being shared on the Old Copper Complex site and Ancient  Waterways.  If you like old copper artifacts, look at the article below. Ted http://csasi.org/2003_summer_journal/red_metal_poundings.htm ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancient_waterways_society/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancient_waterways_society/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     ancient_waterways_society-digest@yahoogroups.com     ancient_waterways_society-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     ancient_waterways_society-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/





                          --
                          Chris Finefrock
                          cfidevelopments@...
                          805.365.5101
                        • wmsmithrock1
                          Thanks Chris, Your respected opinion of Dr. Fell is shared by many academics. He has given many new insights into pre-Columbian activity as well as Emertis
                          Message 12 of 16 , Oct 6, 2013
                          • 0 Attachment

                            Thanks Chris, Your respected opinion of Dr. Fell is shared by many academics. He has given many new insights into pre-Columbian activity as well as Emertis degree from Harvard. I was very close to Fell in the late 70's and still have many of our hand written communications. I am aware of many topics Fell did not have all the facts, however I am not aware of any facts he modified to gain popularity. When my THOR group looked at the Burrows cave artifacts by grouping the number of symbols on 15 of the artifacts reported as authentic we found over 72 symbols that were called letters of the alphabet used in the many artifacts. Had we included more artifacts we would have likely had an alphabet with way over 100 letters of which each had a multiple use. This alone seems very odd because of the random use of symbols. The Burrows Cave artifacts if they are real, represent the most complicated alphabet ever used. The only current work on the Burrows Cave artifacts I am aware of is Wayne May's work.

                               Even when Lewis committed suicide by gun shot it took him two shots.

                               



                            ---In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                            Hello,

                            Sorry to chime in here as I have much to learn, but for fun am responding. Forgive me if I am incorrect in any of this but it's my understanding that Dr. Fell did make some mistakes compared to his mission objectives. I own all of his books and he is obviously one of the most important people in our niche for his incredible contributions.

                            Dr. Fell received a couple of photos of Burrows Cave pieces, could not read the script, and immediately declared them a hoax. He did not examine the thousands of rock art themselves other than looking at a couple of photos.  His reaction was almost identical to a century earlier, a professor who glanced at a few photos of the Michigan Tablets and could not read them and declared them a fake.  Thank goodness for Henrietta Mertz's work!!!   This professor did the exact same thing as Dr. Fell and told his followers that the "Burrows Cave rocks" were modern forgeries, because he could not read the script. This is unfortunately "ipsi dicit" (unproven conclusions by someone in authority that is accepted without challenge). 

                            I had a dream a month ago and Dr. Barry Fell (yes it was 100% for sure Dr. Fell) was serving me a smoothy at a yogurt stand in a mall. We talked for what seemed like a minute but I don't remember what we talked about.  He looked young, healthy, about fifty and it was a dream I will never forget.  I have an INCREDIBLE amount of respect for what Dr. Fell has done for our niche, and would do ANYTHING to have met him, but like many of us, we make mistakes in life in sometimes thinking that we know everything, or if information doesn't jive with our beliefs we discard it. 

                            Any basic data must be looked into using the SCIENTIFIC METHOD. There is no room for dogma or ipsi dicit.  Evidence must not be discarded and data must not be filtered out if it does not fit our preconceived beliefs.  If the results of a thorough analysis contradicts out previous beliefs, we are obligated to change out beliefs. 

                            Thanks for allowing this email to be sent Ancient Waterways. Any feedback pro or con is appreciated.  

                            Sincerely,

                            Chris  

                            P.S. Thanks Dr. Jim for some of your very smart words.



                            On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 3:53 PM, Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...> wrote:
                             

                            It was documented in Steven Ambrose's book that Jefferson wanted them to collect knowledge of medicine, birthing methods, treatments for diseases along his trip.  It was not their main mission but one they should not ignore as they travelled to the Pacific.  My college classmate and friend is a descendant of the two Ordways on the expedition.  John Ordway's journals fill out a lot of detail on days when Lewis was down with depression and the stress of the trip.   They are listed on the pay roll when the trip ended and they were back in St. Louis.


                            Ted

                            On Oct 5, 2013, at 4:57 PM, <ozman@...> wrote:

                             

                            First, the Lewis and Clark Expedition (as we know it) was a MILITARY MISSION by the Corps of Discovery, outfitted salaried, and answering to Secretary of War, under Jefferson, Henry Knox. It had almost nothing to do with acquiring knowledge or reporting new species or any other "noble" purpose. It was to stake a claim on the Oregon Country and let the tribes along the way that those tribes now answered to a new power. 
                            In this case, the term "discovery" in Corps of Discovery was designed to comply with the legal meaning of land discovery and subsequent land claim in international circles. It was the first major step in the Doctrine of Discovery and Manifest Destiny.. .
                            Lewis carried passports received from the French and English ambassadors in case they were challenged near territories claimed by either country, but the Spanish ambassador refused to issue one and the Spanish sent 4 different military expeditions trying to find and detain the Corps of Discovery.
                            At the same time that Lewis and Clark were "exploring" in present day Idaho, Captain Albert Pike was planting a US flag on Pikes Peak in territory claimed by the Spanish, also under orders from Jefferson and Knox.
                            Lewis and Jefferson were planning the route for the Corps of Discovery in 1794, nearly a full decade before the Louisiana Purchase occurred. Yet we're taught Jefferson and Madison were surprised by Bonaparte's offer for the sale of that territory.
                            Bottom line: Don't believe everything in your history books



                            ---In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                            Hi Chris
                              I was not aware of any mistakes made by Lewis or Clark or for that matter Fell as you say. Can you explain what mistakes they made as compared to their mission objectives?
                             

                            From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
                            To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Thursday, October 3, 2013 5:14 PM
                            Subject: Re: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
                             
                            I did not say, anywhere, that I agree with Scott's total findings. You knit-pick over the broader "big picture" I was referring to. Bottom line factoid we all agree on... History is NOT what has been taken for granted and dished up like propaganda in the state-run educational system. It has taken 6 decades for the grassroots efforts to gain enough data to take a stand. MY point was that errors ARE made when a field of study or mission of enlightenment is initially undertaken. That's how we learn... by trial and error. I do not class Scott Wolter on a level with the other names i mentioned as 'discoverers'... Scott is working with thoughts and ideas brought to him and his producers, by dozens of other avocational explorers. The point I am making is that Scott is a pioneer in the media awareness department, one of the first persons with the guts to put "it" out there and create enough noise that the PUBLIC, not the 'specialists' are finally hearing a new message. Everyone needs a conviction in order to feel they have a platform or deck to branch out from. I will not begrudge Wolter his own individual sense of starting point. It's what we do with the forward motion, that involves the others along our path, that will prove, in the end, where we have traveled. He's working out a labyrinth,  he's gonna bump into a few dead ends. In that way, we'll be making a map and know other ways to explore that he couldn't reach. We're all team in the learning curve. -chris


                            From: william smith <wmsmithrock1@...>
                            To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2013 8:53 PM
                            Subject: Re: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
                            Chris
                              It is ok to put Lewis and Clark, Fell and Wolter in the same class that states their name is forged into history, however Lewis and Clark as well as Fell worked with the academics and politics where Wolter speaks against them when they challenge his so called facts. Wolter offered the property owner $50,000 for the Kansas City Slater Rune Stone so he could link it to the Templars. It took the academics less than one day to determine this carving was made after 1888. How does Wolter explain the mechanical wear line on the KRS? On what December 21st will we see the sun shine through the south window of the Newport tower to highlight the oval stone? Why would he pick just a few mooring stone holes to find the exact location of the KRS and not use the 100s of others that exist? Are you aware that the Mystery stone of New Hampshire is like the one used in Admiral Sommers lodestone compass which is in a museum in Bermuda?

                            From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
                            To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2013 4:43 PM
                            Subject: Re: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
                             
                            First the will and wish to find out needs to exist. The question must be posed in some kind of irresistible, curiosity-inducing communication to the general public. Then a specific narrowing of the focus to one, digestible bite...the results of which should generate profit to the sponsor. Funding follows the money. Scott Wolter may have push-me-pull-u struggles with his producers, and the resulting generalized TV programming fraught with mis-information, but he's got the formula down and the public is perking up its ears, at last. Lewis & Clark didn't get a lot of their journey right, their maps had major gaps, they almost died several times. But their names are forever forged in history. Barry Fell and Scott Wolter are pioneers in the field of diffusion and the New History. Others will surely come along and make far better progress for humanity's awareness. But the first ones are the names that are remembered. -c


                            From: "wmsmithrock1@..." <wmsmithrock1@...>
                            To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 10:07 AM
                            Subject: RE: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
                            Chris
                              You make a good point on the Nebra disc composition. If we had the results they claim to have we could do it ourselves. I see a lot of items that could be better identified and dated if proper lab work was performed, however it seems like the funding for this is always the first to go in slow economic times. 
                            --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                            I still think the Nebra Star Disc should be elementally compared with N.Amn/Gt.Lakes components. They computed the copper down, once, to compare it with Middle Eastern/Egyptian copper resources. They found that it did not match those. But I feel the theory testing did not go far enough and include western Atlantic sources for the copper. My thots. -crispy


                            From: Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...>
                            To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2013 8:48 AM
                            Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
                            This is being shared on the Old Copper Complex site and Ancient  Waterways.  If you like old copper artifacts, look at the article below. Ted http://csasi.org/2003_summer_journal/red_metal_poundings.htm ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancient_waterways_society/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancient_waterways_society/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     ancient_waterways_society-digest@yahoogroups.com     ancient_waterways_society-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     ancient_waterways_society-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/





                            --
                            Chris Finefrock
                            cfidevelopments@...
                            805.365.5101
                          • Ted Sojka
                            On Oct 6, 2013, at 9:22 AM,
                            Message 13 of 16 , Oct 6, 2013
                            • 0 Attachment

                              On Oct 6, 2013, at 9:22 AM, <wmsmithrock1@...> <wmsmithrock1@...> wrote:

                               

                              Thanks Chris, Your respected opinion of Dr. Fell is shared by many academics. He has given many new insights into pre-Columbian activity as well as Emertis degree from Harvard. I was very close to Fell in the late 70's and still have many of our hand written communications. I am aware of many topics Fell did not have all the facts, however I am not aware of any facts he modified to gain popularity. When my THOR group looked at the Burrows cave artifacts by grouping the number of symbols on 15 of the artifacts reported as authentic we found over 72 symbols that were called letters of the alphabet used in the many artifacts. Had we included more artifacts we would have likely had an alphabet with way over 100 letters of which each had a multiple use. This alone seems very odd because of the random use of symbols. The Burrows Cave artifacts if they are real, represent the most complicated alphabet ever used. The only current work on the Burrows Cave artifacts I am aware of is Wayne May's work.

                                 Even when Lewis committed suicide by gun shot it took him two shots.

                              That is if it was suicide, and not robbery or murder for hire.  There are books that say that many were to benefit from his death on the way to Washington.  I think he was in charge of most of the territory north of St Louis to what is Fort Snelling, now the Twin Cities area.  

                              It is thought that he had information or suggestions which would have disrupted a few plans for those wanting concessions in parts of the territory that Lewis governed.
                              ted


                                 


                              ---In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                              Hello,

                              Sorry to chime in here as I have much to learn, but for fun am responding. Forgive me if I am incorrect in any of this but it's my understanding that Dr. Fell did make some mistakes compared to his mission objectives. I own all of his books and he is obviously one of the most important people in our niche for his incredible contributions.

                              Dr. Fell received a couple of photos of Burrows Cave pieces, could not read the script, and immediately declared them a hoax. He did not examine the thousands of rock art themselves other than looking at a couple of photos.  His reaction was almost identical to a century earlier, a professor who glanced at a few photos of the Michigan Tablets and could not read them and declared them a fake.  Thank goodness for Henrietta Mertz's work!!!   This professor did the exact same thing as Dr. Fell and told his followers that the "Burrows Cave rocks" were modern forgeries, because he could not read the script. This is unfortunately "ipsi dicit" (unproven conclusions by someone in authority that is accepted without challenge). 

                              I had a dream a month ago and Dr. Barry Fell (yes it was 100% for sure Dr. Fell) was serving me a smoothy at a yogurt stand in a mall. We talked for what seemed like a minute but I don't remember what we talked about.  He looked young, healthy, about fifty and it was a dream I will never forget.  I have an INCREDIBLE amount of respect for what Dr. Fell has done for our niche, and would do ANYTHING to have met him, but like many of us, we make mistakes in life in sometimes thinking that we know everything, or if information doesn't jive with our beliefs we discard it. 

                              Any basic data must be looked into using the SCIENTIFIC METHOD. There is no room for dogma or ipsi dicit.  Evidence must not be discarded and data must not be filtered out if it does not fit our preconceived beliefs.  If the results of a thorough analysis contradicts out previous beliefs, we are obligated to change out beliefs. 

                              Thanks for allowing this email to be sent Ancient Waterways. Any feedback pro or con is appreciated.  

                              Sincerely,

                              Chris  

                              P.S. Thanks Dr. Jim for some of your very smart words.



                              On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 3:53 PM, Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...> wrote:
                               

                              It was documented in Steven Ambrose's book that Jefferson wanted them to collect knowledge of medicine, birthing methods, treatments for diseases along his trip.  It was not their main mission but one they should not ignore as they travelled to the Pacific.  My college classmate and friend is a descendant of the two Ordways on the expedition.  John Ordway's journals fill out a lot of detail on days when Lewis was down with depression and the stress of the trip.   They are listed on the pay roll when the trip ended and they were back in St. Louis.


                              Ted

                              On Oct 5, 2013, at 4:57 PM, <ozman@...> wrote:

                               

                              First, the Lewis and Clark Expedition (as we know it) was a MILITARY MISSION by the Corps of Discovery, outfitted salaried, and answering to Secretary of War, under Jefferson, Henry Knox. It had almost nothing to do with acquiring knowledge or reporting new species or any other "noble" purpose. It was to stake a claim on the Oregon Country and let the tribes along the way that those tribes now answered to a new power. 
                              In this case, the term "discovery" in Corps of Discovery was designed to comply with the legal meaning of land discovery and subsequent land claim in international circles. It was the first major step in the Doctrine of Discovery and Manifest Destiny.. .
                              Lewis carried passports received from the French and English ambassadors in case they were challenged near territories claimed by either country, but the Spanish ambassador refused to issue one and the Spanish sent 4 different military expeditions trying to find and detain the Corps of Discovery.
                              At the same time that Lewis and Clark were "exploring" in present day Idaho, Captain Albert Pike was planting a US flag on Pikes Peak in territory claimed by the Spanish, also under orders from Jefferson and Knox.
                              Lewis and Jefferson were planning the route for the Corps of Discovery in 1794, nearly a full decade before the Louisiana Purchase occurred. Yet we're taught Jefferson and Madison were surprised by Bonaparte's offer for the sale of that territory.
                              Bottom line: Don't believe everything in your history books



                              ---In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                              Hi Chris
                                I was not aware of any mistakes made by Lewis or Clark or for that matter Fell as you say. Can you explain what mistakes they made as compared to their mission objectives?
                               

                              From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
                              To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Thursday, October 3, 2013 5:14 PM
                              Subject: Re: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
                               
                              I did not say, anywhere, that I agree with Scott's total findings. You knit-pick over the broader "big picture" I was referring to. Bottom line factoid we all agree on... History is NOT what has been taken for granted and dished up like propaganda in the state-run educational system. It has taken 6 decades for the grassroots efforts to gain enough data to take a stand. MY point was that errors ARE made when a field of study or mission of enlightenment is initially undertaken. That's how we learn... by trial and error. I do not class Scott Wolter on a level with the other names i mentioned as 'discoverers'... Scott is working with thoughts and ideas brought to him and his producers, by dozens of other avocational explorers. The point I am making is that Scott is a pioneer in the media awareness department, one of the first persons with the guts to put "it" out there and create enough noise that the PUBLIC, not the 'specialists' are finally hearing a new message. Everyone needs a conviction in order to feel they have a platform or deck to branch out from. I will not begrudge Wolter his own individual sense of starting point. It's what we do with the forward motion, that involves the others along our path, that will prove, in the end, where we have traveled. He's working out a labyrinth,  he's gonna bump into a few dead ends. In that way, we'll be making a map and know other ways to explore that he couldn't reach. We're all team in the learning curve. -chris


                              From: william smith <wmsmithrock1@...>
                              To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2013 8:53 PM
                              Subject: Re: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
                              Chris
                                It is ok to put Lewis and Clark, Fell and Wolter in the same class that states their name is forged into history, however Lewis and Clark as well as Fell worked with the academics and politics where Wolter speaks against them when they challenge his so called facts. Wolter offered the property owner $50,000 for the Kansas City Slater Rune Stone so he could link it to the Templars. It took the academics less than one day to determine this carving was made after 1888. How does Wolter explain the mechanical wear line on the KRS? On what December 21st will we see the sun shine through the south window of the Newport tower to highlight the oval stone? Why would he pick just a few mooring stone holes to find the exact location of the KRS and not use the 100s of others that exist? Are you aware that the Mystery stone of New Hampshire is like the one used in Admiral Sommers lodestone compass which is in a museum in Bermuda?

                              From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
                              To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2013 4:43 PM
                              Subject: Re: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
                               
                              First the will and wish to find out needs to exist. The question must be posed in some kind of irresistible, curiosity-inducing communication to the general public. Then a specific narrowing of the focus to one, digestible bite...the results of which should generate profit to the sponsor. Funding follows the money. Scott Wolter may have push-me-pull-u struggles with his producers, and the resulting generalized TV programming fraught with mis-information, but he's got the formula down and the public is perking up its ears, at last. Lewis & Clark didn't get a lot of their journey right, their maps had major gaps, they almost died several times. But their names are forever forged in history. Barry Fell and Scott Wolter are pioneers in the field of diffusion and the New History. Others will surely come along and make far better progress for humanity's awareness. But the first ones are the names that are remembered. -c


                              From: "wmsmithrock1@..." <wmsmithrock1@...>
                              To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 10:07 AM
                              Subject: RE: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
                              Chris
                                You make a good point on the Nebra disc composition. If we had the results they claim to have we could do it ourselves. I see a lot of items that could be better identified and dated if proper lab work was performed, however it seems like the funding for this is always the first to go in slow economic times. 
                              --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                              I still think the Nebra Star Disc should be elementally compared with N.Amn/Gt.Lakes components. They computed the copper down, once, to compare it with Middle Eastern/Egyptian copper resources. They found that it did not match those. But I feel the theory testing did not go far enough and include western Atlantic sources for the copper. My thots. -crispy


                              From: Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...>
                              To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2013 8:48 AM
                              Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
                              This is being shared on the Old Copper Complex site and Ancient  Waterways.  If you like old copper artifacts, look at the article below. Ted http://csasi.org/2003_summer_journal/red_metal_poundings.htm ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancient_waterways_society/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancient_waterways_society/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     ancient_waterways_society-digest@yahoogroups.com     ancient_waterways_society-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     ancient_waterways_society-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/





                              --
                              Chris Finefrock
                              cfidevelopments@...
                              805.365.5101


                            • william smith
                              They also say the money he had was gone when they found him. ________________________________ From: Ted Sojka To:
                              Message 14 of 16 , Oct 6, 2013
                              • 0 Attachment
                                They also say the money he had was gone when they found him.

                                From: Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...>
                                To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 6:56 PM
                                Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
                                 

                                On Oct 6, 2013, at 9:22 AM, <wmsmithrock1@...> <wmsmithrock1@...> wrote:
                                 

                                Thanks Chris, Your respected opinion of Dr. Fell is shared by many academics. He has given many new insights into pre-Columbian activity as well as Emertis degree from Harvard. I was very close to Fell in the late 70's and still have many of our hand written communications. I am aware of many topics Fell did not have all the facts, however I am not aware of any facts he modified to gain popularity. When my THOR group looked at the Burrows cave artifacts by grouping the number of symbols on 15 of the artifacts reported as authentic we found over 72 symbols that were called letters of the alphabet used in the many artifacts. Had we included more artifacts we would have likely had an alphabet with way over 100 letters of which each had a multiple use. This alone seems very odd because of the random use of symbols. The Burrows Cave artifacts if they are real, represent the most complicated alphabet ever used. The only current work on the Burrows Cave artifacts I am aware of is Wayne May's work.
                                   Even when Lewis committed suicide by gun shot it took him two shots.
                                That is if it was suicide, and not robbery or murder for hire.  There are books that say that many were to benefit from his death on the way to Washington.  I think he was in charge of most of the territory north of St Louis to what is Fort Snelling, now the Twin Cities area.  

                                It is thought that he had information or suggestions which would have disrupted a few plans for those wanting concessions in parts of the territory that Lewis governed.
                                ted

                                   
                                ---In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                Hello,

                                Sorry to chime in here as I have much to learn, but for fun am responding. Forgive me if I am incorrect in any of this but it's my understanding that Dr. Fell did make some mistakes compared to his mission objectives. I own all of his books and he is obviously one of the most important people in our niche for his incredible contributions.

                                Dr. Fell received a couple of photos of Burrows Cave pieces, could not read the script, and immediately declared them a hoax. He did not examine the thousands of rock art themselves other than looking at a couple of photos.  His reaction was almost identical to a century earlier, a professor who glanced at a few photos of the Michigan Tablets and could not read them and declared them a fake.  Thank goodness for Henrietta Mertz's work!!!   This professor did the exact same thing as Dr. Fell and told his followers that the "Burrows Cave rocks" were modern forgeries, because he could not read the script. This is unfortunately "ipsi dicit" (unproven conclusions by someone in authority that is accepted without challenge). 

                                I had a dream a month ago and Dr. Barry Fell (yes it was 100% for sure Dr. Fell) was serving me a smoothy at a yogurt stand in a mall. We talked for what seemed like a minute but I don't remember what we talked about.  He looked young, healthy, about fifty and it was a dream I will never forget.  I have an INCREDIBLE amount of respect for what Dr. Fell has done for our niche, and would do ANYTHING to have met him, but like many of us, we make mistakes in life in sometimes thinking that we know everything, or if information doesn't jive with our beliefs we discard it. 

                                Any basic data must be looked into using the SCIENTIFIC METHOD. There is no room for dogma or ipsi dicit.  Evidence must not be discarded and data must not be filtered out if it does not fit our preconceived beliefs.  If the results of a thorough analysis contradicts out previous beliefs, we are obligated to change out beliefs. 

                                Thanks for allowing this email to be sent Ancient Waterways. Any feedback pro or con is appreciated.  

                                Sincerely,

                                Chris  

                                P.S. Thanks Dr. Jim for some of your very smart words.

                                On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 3:53 PM, Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...> wrote:
                                 
                                It was documented in Steven Ambrose's book that Jefferson wanted them to collect knowledge of medicine, birthing methods, treatments for diseases along his trip.  It was not their main mission but one they should not ignore as they travelled to the Pacific.  My college classmate and friend is a descendant of the two Ordways on the expedition.  John Ordway's journals fill out a lot of detail on days when Lewis was down with depression and the stress of the trip.   They are listed on the pay roll when the trip ended and they were back in St. Louis.

                                Ted
                                On Oct 5, 2013, at 4:57 PM, <ozman@...> wrote:
                                 

                                First, the Lewis and Clark Expedition (as we know it) was a MILITARY MISSION by the Corps of Discovery, outfitted salaried, and answering to Secretary of War, under Jefferson, Henry Knox. It had almost nothing to do with acquiring knowledge or reporting new species or any other "noble" purpose. It was to stake a claim on the Oregon Country and let the tribes along the way that those tribes now answered to a new power. 
                                In this case, the term "discovery" in Corps of Discovery was designed to comply with the legal meaning of land discovery and subsequent land claim in international circles. It was the first major step in the Doctrine of Discovery and Manifest Destiny.. .
                                Lewis carried passports received from the French and English ambassadors in case they were challenged near territories claimed by either country, but the Spanish ambassador refused to issue one and the Spanish sent 4 different military expeditions trying to find and detain the Corps of Discovery.
                                At the same time that Lewis and Clark were "exploring" in present day Idaho, Captain Albert Pike was planting a US flag on Pikes Peak in territory claimed by the Spanish, also under orders from Jefferson and Knox.
                                Lewis and Jefferson were planning the route for the Corps of Discovery in 1794, nearly a full decade before the Louisiana Purchase occurred. Yet we're taught Jefferson and Madison were surprised by Bonaparte's offer for the sale of that territory.
                                Bottom line: Don't believe everything in your history books
                                ---In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                Hi Chris
                                  I was not aware of any mistakes made by Lewis or Clark or for that matter Fell as you say. Can you explain what mistakes they made as compared to their mission objectives?
                                 

                                From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
                                To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Thursday, October 3, 2013 5:14 PM
                                Subject: Re: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
                                 
                                I did not say, anywhere, that I agree with Scott's total findings. You knit-pick over the broader "big picture" I was referring to. Bottom line factoid we all agree on... History is NOT what has been taken for granted and dished up like propaganda in the state-run educational system. It has taken 6 decades for the grassroots efforts to gain enough data to take a stand. MY point was that errors ARE made when a field of study or mission of enlightenment is initially undertaken. That's how we learn... by trial and error. I do not class Scott Wolter on a level with the other names i mentioned as 'discoverers'... Scott is working with thoughts and ideas brought to him and his producers, by dozens of other avocational explorers. The point I am making is that Scott is a pioneer in the media awareness department, one of the first persons with the guts to put "it" out there and create enough noise that the PUBLIC, not the 'specialists' are finally hearing a new message. Everyone needs a conviction in order to feel they have a platform or deck to branch out from. I will not begrudge Wolter his own individual sense of starting point. It's what we do with the forward motion, that involves the others along our path, that will prove, in the end, where we have traveled. He's working out a labyrinth,  he's gonna bump into a few dead ends. In that way, we'll be making a map and know other ways to explore that he couldn't reach. We're all team in the learning curve. -chris


                                From: william smith <wmsmithrock1@...>
                                To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2013 8:53 PM
                                Subject: Re: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
                                Chris
                                  It is ok to put Lewis and Clark, Fell and Wolter in the same class that states their name is forged into history, however Lewis and Clark as well as Fell worked with the academics and politics where Wolter speaks against them when they challenge his so called facts. Wolter offered the property owner $50,000 for the Kansas City Slater Rune Stone so he could link it to the Templars. It took the academics less than one day to determine this carving was made after 1888. How does Wolter explain the mechanical wear line on the KRS? On what December 21st will we see the sun shine through the south window of the Newport tower to highlight the oval stone? Why would he pick just a few mooring stone holes to find the exact location of the KRS and not use the 100s of others that exist? Are you aware that the Mystery stone of New Hampshire is like the one used in Admiral Sommers lodestone compass which is in a museum in Bermuda?

                                From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
                                To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2013 4:43 PM
                                Subject: Re: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
                                 
                                First the will and wish to find out needs to exist. The question must be posed in some kind of irresistible, curiosity-inducing communication to the general public. Then a specific narrowing of the focus to one, digestible bite...the results of which should generate profit to the sponsor. Funding follows the money. Scott Wolter may have push-me-pull-u struggles with his producers, and the resulting generalized TV programming fraught with mis-information, but he's got the formula down and the public is perking up its ears, at last. Lewis & Clark didn't get a lot of their journey right, their maps had major gaps, they almost died several times. But their names are forever forged in history. Barry Fell and Scott Wolter are pioneers in the field of diffusion and the New History. Others will surely come along and make far better progress for humanity's awareness. But the first ones are the names that are remembered. -c


                                From: "wmsmithrock1@..." <wmsmithrock1@...>
                                To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 10:07 AM
                                Subject: RE: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
                                Chris
                                  You make a good point on the Nebra disc composition. If we had the results they claim to have we could do it ourselves. I see a lot of items that could be better identified and dated if proper lab work was performed, however it seems like the funding for this is always the first to go in slow economic times. 
                                --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                I still think the Nebra Star Disc should be elementally compared with N.Amn/Gt.Lakes components. They computed the copper down, once, to compare it with Middle Eastern/Egyptian copper resources. They found that it did not match those. But I feel the theory testing did not go far enough and include western Atlantic sources for the copper. My thots. -crispy


                                From: Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...>
                                To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2013 8:48 AM
                                Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
                                This is being shared on the Old Copper Complex site and Ancient  Waterways.  If you like old copper artifacts, look at the article below. Ted http://csasi.org/2003_summer_journal/red_metal_poundings.htm ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancient_waterways_society/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancient_waterways_society/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     ancient_waterways_society-digest@yahoogroups.com     ancient_waterways_society-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     ancient_waterways_society-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/




                                --
                                Chris Finefrock
                                cfidevelopments@...
                                805.365.5101

                              • Karla Akins
                                There were also pages missing from his journal and other papers. His relatives are trying to have him exhumed and studied. I found an interesting website
                                Message 15 of 16 , Oct 6, 2013
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  There were also pages missing from his journal and other papers. His relatives are trying to have him exhumed and studied. I found an interesting website devoted to nothing but investigating his death:  http://www.deathofmeriwetherlewis.com/ (I do not know how credible it is, just sharing what I found.)

                                  It is my belief that he had information that someone didn't want him to share. He knew something. And they silenced him. Who "they" are remains a mystery, too.




                                  On Sun, Oct 6, 2013 at 7:13 PM, william smith <wmsmithrock1@...> wrote:
                                   

                                  They also say the money he had was gone when they found him.

                                  Sent: Sunday, October 6, 2013 6:56 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
                                   

                                  On Oct 6, 2013, at 9:22 AM, <wmsmithrock1@...> <wmsmithrock1@...> wrote:
                                   

                                  Thanks Chris, Your respected opinion of Dr. Fell is shared by many academics. He has given many new insights into pre-Columbian activity as well as Emertis degree from Harvard. I was very close to Fell in the late 70's and still have many of our hand written communications. I am aware of many topics Fell did not have all the facts, however I am not aware of any facts he modified to gain popularity. When my THOR group looked at the Burrows cave artifacts by grouping the number of symbols on 15 of the artifacts reported as authentic we found over 72 symbols that were called letters of the alphabet used in the many artifacts. Had we included more artifacts we would have likely had an alphabet with way over 100 letters of which each had a multiple use. This alone seems very odd because of the random use of symbols. The Burrows Cave artifacts if they are real, represent the most complicated alphabet ever used. The only current work on the Burrows Cave artifacts I am aware of is Wayne May's work.
                                     Even when Lewis committed suicide by gun shot it took him two shots.
                                  That is if it was suicide, and not robbery or murder for hire.  There are books that say that many were to benefit from his death on the way to Washington.  I think he was in charge of most of the territory north of St Louis to what is Fort Snelling, now the Twin Cities area.  

                                  It is thought that he had information or suggestions which would have disrupted a few plans for those wanting concessions in parts of the territory that Lewis governed.
                                  ted

                                     
                                  ---In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                  Hello,

                                  Sorry to chime in here as I have much to learn, but for fun am responding. Forgive me if I am incorrect in any of this but it's my understanding that Dr. Fell did make some mistakes compared to his mission objectives. I own all of his books and he is obviously one of the most important people in our niche for his incredible contributions.

                                  Dr. Fell received a couple of photos of Burrows Cave pieces, could not read the script, and immediately declared them a hoax. He did not examine the thousands of rock art themselves other than looking at a couple of photos.  His reaction was almost identical to a century earlier, a professor who glanced at a few photos of the Michigan Tablets and could not read them and declared them a fake.  Thank goodness for Henrietta Mertz's work!!!   This professor did the exact same thing as Dr. Fell and told his followers that the "Burrows Cave rocks" were modern forgeries, because he could not read the script. This is unfortunately "ipsi dicit" (unproven conclusions by someone in authority that is accepted without challenge). 

                                  I had a dream a month ago and Dr. Barry Fell (yes it was 100% for sure Dr. Fell) was serving me a smoothy at a yogurt stand in a mall. We talked for what seemed like a minute but I don't remember what we talked about.  He looked young, healthy, about fifty and it was a dream I will never forget.  I have an INCREDIBLE amount of respect for what Dr. Fell has done for our niche, and would do ANYTHING to have met him, but like many of us, we make mistakes in life in sometimes thinking that we know everything, or if information doesn't jive with our beliefs we discard it. 

                                  Any basic data must be looked into using the SCIENTIFIC METHOD. There is no room for dogma or ipsi dicit.  Evidence must not be discarded and data must not be filtered out if it does not fit our preconceived beliefs.  If the results of a thorough analysis contradicts out previous beliefs, we are obligated to change out beliefs. 

                                  Thanks for allowing this email to be sent Ancient Waterways. Any feedback pro or con is appreciated.  

                                  Sincerely,

                                  Chris  

                                  P.S. Thanks Dr. Jim for some of your very smart words.

                                  On Sat, Oct 5, 2013 at 3:53 PM, Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...> wrote:
                                   
                                  It was documented in Steven Ambrose's book that Jefferson wanted them to collect knowledge of medicine, birthing methods, treatments for diseases along his trip.  It was not their main mission but one they should not ignore as they travelled to the Pacific.  My college classmate and friend is a descendant of the two Ordways on the expedition.  John Ordway's journals fill out a lot of detail on days when Lewis was down with depression and the stress of the trip.   They are listed on the pay roll when the trip ended and they were back in St. Louis.

                                  Ted
                                  On Oct 5, 2013, at 4:57 PM, <ozman@...> wrote:
                                   

                                  First, the Lewis and Clark Expedition (as we know it) was a MILITARY MISSION by the Corps of Discovery, outfitted salaried, and answering to Secretary of War, under Jefferson, Henry Knox. It had almost nothing to do with acquiring knowledge or reporting new species or any other "noble" purpose. It was to stake a claim on the Oregon Country and let the tribes along the way that those tribes now answered to a new power. 
                                  In this case, the term "discovery" in Corps of Discovery was designed to comply with the legal meaning of land discovery and subsequent land claim in international circles. It was the first major step in the Doctrine of Discovery and Manifest Destiny.. .
                                  Lewis carried passports received from the French and English ambassadors in case they were challenged near territories claimed by either country, but the Spanish ambassador refused to issue one and the Spanish sent 4 different military expeditions trying to find and detain the Corps of Discovery.
                                  At the same time that Lewis and Clark were "exploring" in present day Idaho, Captain Albert Pike was planting a US flag on Pikes Peak in territory claimed by the Spanish, also under orders from Jefferson and Knox.
                                  Lewis and Jefferson were planning the route for the Corps of Discovery in 1794, nearly a full decade before the Louisiana Purchase occurred. Yet we're taught Jefferson and Madison were surprised by Bonaparte's offer for the sale of that territory.
                                  Bottom line: Don't believe everything in your history books
                                  ---In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                  Hi Chris
                                    I was not aware of any mistakes made by Lewis or Clark or for that matter Fell as you say. Can you explain what mistakes they made as compared to their mission objectives?
                                   

                                  From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
                                  To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Thursday, October 3, 2013 5:14 PM
                                  Subject: Re: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
                                   
                                  I did not say, anywhere, that I agree with Scott's total findings. You knit-pick over the broader "big picture" I was referring to. Bottom line factoid we all agree on... History is NOT what has been taken for granted and dished up like propaganda in the state-run educational system. It has taken 6 decades for the grassroots efforts to gain enough data to take a stand. MY point was that errors ARE made when a field of study or mission of enlightenment is initially undertaken. That's how we learn... by trial and error. I do not class Scott Wolter on a level with the other names i mentioned as 'discoverers'... Scott is working with thoughts and ideas brought to him and his producers, by dozens of other avocational explorers. The point I am making is that Scott is a pioneer in the media awareness department, one of the first persons with the guts to put "it" out there and create enough noise that the PUBLIC, not the 'specialists' are finally hearing a new message. Everyone needs a conviction in order to feel they have a platform or deck to branch out from. I will not begrudge Wolter his own individual sense of starting point. It's what we do with the forward motion, that involves the others along our path, that will prove, in the end, where we have traveled. He's working out a labyrinth,  he's gonna bump into a few dead ends. In that way, we'll be making a map and know other ways to explore that he couldn't reach. We're all team in the learning curve. -chris


                                  From: william smith <wmsmithrock1@...>
                                  To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2013 8:53 PM
                                  Subject: Re: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
                                  Chris
                                    It is ok to put Lewis and Clark, Fell and Wolter in the same class that states their name is forged into history, however Lewis and Clark as well as Fell worked with the academics and politics where Wolter speaks against them when they challenge his so called facts. Wolter offered the property owner $50,000 for the Kansas City Slater Rune Stone so he could link it to the Templars. It took the academics less than one day to determine this carving was made after 1888. How does Wolter explain the mechanical wear line on the KRS? On what December 21st will we see the sun shine through the south window of the Newport tower to highlight the oval stone? Why would he pick just a few mooring stone holes to find the exact location of the KRS and not use the 100s of others that exist? Are you aware that the Mystery stone of New Hampshire is like the one used in Admiral Sommers lodestone compass which is in a museum in Bermuda?

                                  From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
                                  To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2013 4:43 PM
                                  Subject: Re: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
                                   
                                  First the will and wish to find out needs to exist. The question must be posed in some kind of irresistible, curiosity-inducing communication to the general public. Then a specific narrowing of the focus to one, digestible bite...the results of which should generate profit to the sponsor. Funding follows the money. Scott Wolter may have push-me-pull-u struggles with his producers, and the resulting generalized TV programming fraught with mis-information, but he's got the formula down and the public is perking up its ears, at last. Lewis & Clark didn't get a lot of their journey right, their maps had major gaps, they almost died several times. But their names are forever forged in history. Barry Fell and Scott Wolter are pioneers in the field of diffusion and the New History. Others will surely come along and make far better progress for humanity's awareness. But the first ones are the names that are remembered. -c


                                  From: "wmsmithrock1@..." <wmsmithrock1@...>
                                  To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 10:07 AM
                                  Subject: RE: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
                                  Chris
                                    You make a good point on the Nebra disc composition. If we had the results they claim to have we could do it ourselves. I see a lot of items that could be better identified and dated if proper lab work was performed, however it seems like the funding for this is always the first to go in slow economic times. 
                                  --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                  I still think the Nebra Star Disc should be elementally compared with N.Amn/Gt.Lakes components. They computed the copper down, once, to compare it with Middle Eastern/Egyptian copper resources. They found that it did not match those. But I feel the theory testing did not go far enough and include western Atlantic sources for the copper. My thots. -crispy


                                  From: Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...>
                                  To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2013 8:48 AM
                                  Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
                                  This is being shared on the Old Copper Complex site and Ancient  Waterways.  If you like old copper artifacts, look at the article below. Ted http://csasi.org/2003_summer_journal/red_metal_poundings.htm ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancient_waterways_society/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancient_waterways_society/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     ancient_waterways_society-digest@yahoogroups.com     ancient_waterways_society-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     ancient_waterways_society-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/




                                  --
                                  Chris Finefrock
                                  cfidevelopments@...
                                  805.365.5101


                                • ozmanusaa
                                  http://www.livestream.com/oopaloopacafe http://www.livestream.com/oopaloopacafe ... It was documented in Steven Ambrose s book that Jefferson wanted them to
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Oct 13, 2013
                                  • 0 Attachment

                                     http://www.livestream.com/oopaloopacafe



                                    ---In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                    It was documented in Steven Ambrose's book that Jefferson wanted them to collect knowledge of medicine, birthing methods, treatments for diseases along his trip.  It was not their main mission but one they should not ignore as they travelled to the Pacific.  My college classmate and friend is a descendant of the two Ordways on the expedition.  John Ordway's journals fill out a lot of detail on days when Lewis was down with depression and the stress of the trip.   They are listed on the pay roll when the trip ended and they were back in St. Louis.

                                    Ted
                                    On Oct 5, 2013, at 4:57 PM, <ozman@...> wrote:

                                     

                                    First, the Lewis and Clark Expedition (as we know it) was a MILITARY MISSION by the Corps of Discovery, outfitted salaried, and answering to Secretary of War, under Jefferson, Henry Knox. It had almost nothing to do with acquiring knowledge or reporting new species or any other "noble" purpose. It was to stake a claim on the Oregon Country and let the tribes along the way that those tribes now answered to a new power. 
                                    In this case, the term "discovery" in Corps of Discovery was designed to comply with the legal meaning of land discovery and subsequent land claim in international circles. It was the first major step in the Doctrine of Discovery and Manifest Destiny.. .
                                    Lewis carried passports received from the French and English ambassadors in case they were challenged near territories claimed by either country, but the Spanish ambassador refused to issue one and the Spanish sent 4 different military expeditions trying to find and detain the Corps of Discovery.
                                    At the same time that Lewis and Clark were "exploring" in present day Idaho, Captain Albert Pike was planting a US flag on Pikes Peak in territory claimed by the Spanish, also under orders from Jefferson and Knox.
                                    Lewis and Jefferson were planning the route for the Corps of Discovery in 1794, nearly a full decade before the Louisiana Purchase occurred. Yet we're taught Jefferson and Madison were surprised by Bonaparte's offer for the sale of that territory.
                                    Bottom line: Don't believe everything in your history books



                                    ---In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

                                    Hi Chris
                                      I was not aware of any mistakes made by Lewis or Clark or for that matter Fell as you say. Can you explain what mistakes they made as compared to their mission objectives?
                                     

                                    From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
                                    To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Thursday, October 3, 2013 5:14 PM
                                    Subject: Re: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
                                     
                                    I did not say, anywhere, that I agree with Scott's total findings. You knit-pick over the broader "big picture" I was referring to. Bottom line factoid we all agree on... History is NOT what has been taken for granted and dished up like propaganda in the state-run educational system. It has taken 6 decades for the grassroots efforts to gain enough data to take a stand. MY point was that errors ARE made when a field of study or mission of enlightenment is initially undertaken. That's how we learn... by trial and error. I do not class Scott Wolter on a level with the other names i mentioned as 'discoverers'... Scott is working with thoughts and ideas brought to him and his producers, by dozens of other avocational explorers. The point I am making is that Scott is a pioneer in the media awareness department, one of the first persons with the guts to put "it" out there and create enough noise that the PUBLIC, not the 'specialists' are finally hearing a new message. Everyone needs a conviction in order to feel they have a platform or deck to branch out from. I will not begrudge Wolter his own individual sense of starting point. It's what we do with the forward motion, that involves the others along our path, that will prove, in the end, where we have traveled. He's working out a labyrinth,  he's gonna bump into a few dead ends. In that way, we'll be making a map and know other ways to explore that he couldn't reach. We're all team in the learning curve. -chris


                                    From: william smith <wmsmithrock1@...>
                                    To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2013 8:53 PM
                                    Subject: Re: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
                                    Chris
                                      It is ok to put Lewis and Clark, Fell and Wolter in the same class that states their name is forged into history, however Lewis and Clark as well as Fell worked with the academics and politics where Wolter speaks against them when they challenge his so called facts. Wolter offered the property owner $50,000 for the Kansas City Slater Rune Stone so he could link it to the Templars. It took the academics less than one day to determine this carving was made after 1888. How does Wolter explain the mechanical wear line on the KRS? On what December 21st will we see the sun shine through the south window of the Newport tower to highlight the oval stone? Why would he pick just a few mooring stone holes to find the exact location of the KRS and not use the 100s of others that exist? Are you aware that the Mystery stone of New Hampshire is like the one used in Admiral Sommers lodestone compass which is in a museum in Bermuda?

                                    From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
                                    To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Wednesday, September 25, 2013 4:43 PM
                                    Subject: Re: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
                                     
                                    First the will and wish to find out needs to exist. The question must be posed in some kind of irresistible, curiosity-inducing communication to the general public. Then a specific narrowing of the focus to one, digestible bite...the results of which should generate profit to the sponsor. Funding follows the money. Scott Wolter may have push-me-pull-u struggles with his producers, and the resulting generalized TV programming fraught with mis-information, but he's got the formula down and the public is perking up its ears, at last. Lewis & Clark didn't get a lot of their journey right, their maps had major gaps, they almost died several times. But their names are forever forged in history. Barry Fell and Scott Wolter are pioneers in the field of diffusion and the New History. Others will surely come along and make far better progress for humanity's awareness. But the first ones are the names that are remembered. -c


                                    From: "wmsmithrock1@..." <wmsmithrock1@...>
                                    To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Monday, September 23, 2013 10:07 AM
                                    Subject: RE: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
                                    Chris
                                      You make a good point on the Nebra disc composition. If we had the results they claim to have we could do it ourselves. I see a lot of items that could be better identified and dated if proper lab work was performed, however it seems like the funding for this is always the first to go in slow economic times. 
                                    --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
                                    I still think the Nebra Star Disc should be elementally compared with N.Amn/Gt.Lakes components. They computed the copper down, once, to compare it with Middle Eastern/Egyptian copper resources. They found that it did not match those. But I feel the theory testing did not go far enough and include western Atlantic sources for the copper. My thots. -crispy


                                    From: Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...>
                                    To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Sunday, September 15, 2013 8:48 AM
                                    Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] from the Old Copper Complex site
                                    This is being shared on the Old Copper Complex site and Ancient  Waterways.  If you like old copper artifacts, look at the article below. Ted http://csasi.org/2003_summer_journal/red_metal_poundings.htm ------------------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Links <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancient_waterways_society/ <*> Your email settings:     Individual Email | Traditional <*> To change settings online go to:     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancient_waterways_society/join     (Yahoo! ID required) <*> To change settings via email:     ancient_waterways_society-digest@yahoogroups.com     ancient_waterways_society-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:     ancient_waterways_society-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:     http://info.yahoo.com/legal/us/yahoo/utos/terms/


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