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Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Private collections... Reply #2

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  • Chris Patenaude
    Thank you, Ryan, for the attachments and guidelines to establishing a new archy-site for protection. My own aforementioned farm-fields that have resulted in
    Message 1 of 15 , Jul 24, 2013
    • 0 Attachment
      Thank you, Ryan, for the attachments and guidelines to establishing a new archy-site for protection.

      My own aforementioned farm-fields that have resulted in bits of history into my own keeping are already designated MN sites with legit, recorded numbers with the  UofMN branches here in the region. I am not a freelancer artifact hunter. And only surface finds are rescued from the plowzone. I'm sparingly collecting with the knowledge and oversight of a local Archaeology prof. He's seen what I've gathered and says the sites have no intrinsic value, and is not worried about the broken shards of pottery and stone fragments. He has tons of the "same stuff", he says, in his records already. When I finish getting the assortment cataloged, it is promised to our County historical society's museum for public display and education.

      What I find fascinating about the items, beat up by the farm equipment as they are, is the correlation to the glacial-till deposits 15 miles east, and the bulk of the makers' "utensil" tool-kits. This was a nomadic meat-camp region... too cold to put in crops...a huge bulk of the artifacts are shaped and re-tooled hide scrapers. Busted hammerstones come in a close second. I'm flabbergasted to see what kinds of crap-rock they would stoop to shape into working tools, here in the Valley. In our floodlands, there are no stone materials to find... its the bottom of an archaic glacial-lake (Agassiz)... anything mineral spotted by eye in the dirt is 80% sure to be artifact. Intentionally brought in for some kind of use with the meat-packing industry they conducted for trade-goods farther south.

      My adrenalin-stirring thought is... exactly who were they making tons upon tons of Pemmican and jerky for... possibly trade to Cahokia via water routes from here. I'm convinced that Old World contact was being brought up the Mississippi at least to Cahokia, if not further. How did Ogham get onto that Catlinite disc, I keep pondering...
      -Chris P ... "Crispy"


      From: Ryan Howell <ryan.jayhowell@...>
      To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, July 2, 2013 7:45 AM
      Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Private collections and Arch Site Recording [2 Attachments]

      [Attachment(s) from Ryan Howell included below]

      Cal,

      I know what you are saying about owners being fearful of showing their collections. I have been told by land owners everything from fears that collecting on their own property is illegal (it is not, all artifacts excepting human burials fall legally under the same laws as mineral rights in US law), to fears that the state or Native American tribes can buy/take their land if they find artifacts (they can't). There is a lot of misunderstanding out there in this area.

      Your also right that most of these collections are disappearing rapidly, most were collected back in the days of animal-pulled plows when the farmer would notice what he/she was hitting or kicking up with the plow (one of the reason's I am working with the Menonite-Amish group is that they are still doing it this way). Nowadays with two-story sized tractors nobody would notice what they hit with the farm machinery unless it was huge, so modern artifacts are ignored or worse ground to dust under the machinery. Also as some of the original discoverer's die the information about where and when the collection was found die with them. Most of their kids either never get the story, or lack interest in it until it is too late. I can't count the number of times I have found great collections in local libraries or high-schools that were donated by unknown parties and say something like "Johnson Farm" on them. 

      Prior to the 1960's almost all archaeology that was known in my area (Minnesota/Wisconsin) was generated by local landowners, amateur historians and artifact collectors and the state historical societies simply recorded information that was sent to them. This work, performed almost exclusively by local interested citizens, formed the baseline that modern archaeology and historical site research works from nowadays in the area and we still go back to the old letters, artifact tracing and hand-drawn maps to learn about these sites.

      There are great artifact collecting societies in most states, along with state archaeological societies (for instance the Minnesota Archaeological Society http://mnarchsociety.org/ , or the Wisconsin Archaeological Society http://wiarcheologicalsociety.org/ -plus facebook pages). However, one doesn't need to belong to any group to record collections and sites, any citizen can record archaeological or historical sites. Simply photographing the artifacts found and recording as much information (location, date of collection, who collected, etc.) is great information and data for future local historians and archaeologists to use. Going one step further and sending these records to the State Archaeologist office in a state site form (every state has one, see attached Mn forms), will guarantee that the records are permanently archived and that the site/collection area is taken into consideration before most future construction or development projects that fall under the National Historic Preservation Act. You even get to name the site and be listed as the discover for all time... I find that pretty neat.

      The problem right now is organization, in tough economic times the state historical societies and state archaeologist offices have had to scale back on their public education and public relations budgets. To my knowledge, in the Midwest, only Iowa has maintained a full-time staff member to focus exclusively on the general public and organize local archaeological projects and training for interested citizen-scientists and site recorders (http://www.uiowa.edu/~osa/edu/edu.htm). So right now it's down to individual initiative, I guess.

      Good hunting,

      Ryan 


      From: C TRAYLOR <trayloroo@...>
      To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, July 1, 2013 11:44 PM
      Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Welcome newcomers; AAPS Conferemce update

       


      -- 
       Very interesting ... especially the ending and rowing in the same direction. There are many private collections. The owners are afraid to show them for fear of litigation.  What ever is out there may be lost, sent with a trash truck. Probably each of us know of such collections. 
       
      There needs to be a society or group of retirees that can.do this, the personnel need to have training in recording methods, and interviewing the owner about the location and context of each piece.      
      Any hope of this? 
       
      Cal  Traylor    
       
      This message is in English, thank our veterans
      for keeping the front lines .... over there.



      Attachment(s) from Ryan Howell
      2 of 2 File(s)



    • Ryan Howell
      Chris, I don t know how any archaeological materials have no intrinsic value . Each artifact and site is a piece of the puzzle, and future generations will
      Message 2 of 15 , Jul 24, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        Chris,

        I don't know how any archaeological materials "have no intrinsic value". Each artifact and site is a piece of the puzzle, and future generations will thank you for documenting them. I just finished working in the Erskine, Mn area in Glacial Lake Agassiz recently myself and I was struck by the lithic materials as well. I was finding alot of vein quartz and basalt flakes (things I would expect to find primarily in the Lake Superior basin in NE Minnesota). I talked to a geologist friend of mine and he said the Erskine Glacier pulled alot of material from the Superior basin and deposited in the moraines along the Red River of the North/ Glacial Lake Agassi. I was also struck by the dominance of Knife River Flint (KRF) we saw in almost every major formal tool; points, drills, etc. I was not expecting that much of a KRF signature that far east, but as you say the area is pretty "lithic-poor". We also saw alot of natural-death Bison bones in the plowzone, showing the major reason to come to the wet-prairie area prehistorically and historically.

        Certainly, the Red River/Coteau/Minnesota River waterway is an ancient trade route and would have been a major travel-route between groups on the Northern Plains and the Mississippi River to the east. We find "tribute" bundles of arrows at Cahokia from places as far west as the Republican River in Nebraska and as far north as Silver Mound (Black River Valley) near Hixton, WI. So Cahokia-based trade from the Red River is certain possible, if not probable. Unfortunately, perishables like pemmican or buffalo hides just don't preserve well in the archaeological record so finding their traces would be difficult.

        Happy Hunting,


        Ryan


         



        From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
        To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2013 5:51 PM
        Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Private collections... Reply #2

         
        Thank you, Ryan, for the attachments and guidelines to establishing a new archy-site for protection.

        My own aforementioned farm-fields that have resulted in bits of history into my own keeping are already designated MN sites with legit, recorded numbers with the  UofMN branches here in the region. I am not a freelancer artifact hunter. And only surface finds are rescued from the plowzone. I'm sparingly collecting with the knowledge and oversight of a local Archaeology prof. He's seen what I've gathered and says the sites have no intrinsic value, and is not worried about the broken shards of pottery and stone fragments. He has tons of the "same stuff", he says, in his records already. When I finish getting the assortment cataloged, it is promised to our County historical society's museum for public display and education.

        What I find fascinating about the items, beat up by the farm equipment as they are, is the correlation to the glacial-till deposits 15 miles east, and the bulk of the makers' "utensil" tool-kits. This was a nomadic meat-camp region... too cold to put in crops...a huge bulk of the artifacts are shaped and re-tooled hide scrapers. Busted hammerstones come in a close second. I'm flabbergasted to see what kinds of crap-rock they would stoop to shape into working tools, here in the Valley. In our floodlands, there are no stone materials to find... its the bottom of an archaic glacial-lake (Agassiz)... anything mineral spotted by eye in the dirt is 80% sure to be artifact. Intentionally brought in for some kind of use with the meat-packing industry they conducted for trade-goods farther south.

        My adrenalin-stirring thought is... exactly who were they making tons upon tons of Pemmican and jerky for... possibly trade to Cahokia via water routes from here. I'm convinced that Old World contact was being brought up the Mississippi at least to Cahokia, if not further. How did Ogham get onto that Catlinite disc, I keep pondering...
        -Chris P ... "Crispy"


        From: Ryan Howell <ryan.jayhowell@...>
        To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tuesday, July 2, 2013 7:45 AM
        Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Private collections and Arch Site Recording [2 Attachments]

        [Attachment(s) from Ryan Howell included below]

        Cal,

        I know what you are saying about owners being fearful of showing their collections. I have been told by land owners everything from fears that collecting on their own property is illegal (it is not, all artifacts excepting human burials fall legally under the same laws as mineral rights in US law), to fears that the state or Native American tribes can buy/take their land if they find artifacts (they can't). There is a lot of misunderstanding out there in this area.

        Your also right that most of these collections are disappearing rapidly, most were collected back in the days of animal-pulled plows when the farmer would notice what he/she was hitting or kicking up with the plow (one of the reason's I am working with the Menonite-Amish group is that they are still doing it this way). Nowadays with two-story sized tractors nobody would notice what they hit with the farm machinery unless it was huge, so modern artifacts are ignored or worse ground to dust under the machinery. Also as some of the original discoverer's die the information about where and when the collection was found die with them. Most of their kids either never get the story, or lack interest in it until it is too late. I can't count the number of times I have found great collections in local libraries or high-schools that were donated by unknown parties and say something like "Johnson Farm" on them. 

        Prior to the 1960's almost all archaeology that was known in my area (Minnesota/Wisconsin) was generated by local landowners, amateur historians and artifact collectors and the state historical societies simply recorded information that was sent to them. This work, performed almost exclusively by local interested citizens, formed the baseline that modern archaeology and historical site research works from nowadays in the area and we still go back to the old letters, artifact tracing and hand-drawn maps to learn about these sites.

        There are great artifact collecting societies in most states, along with state archaeological societies (for instance the Minnesota Archaeological Society http://mnarchsociety.org/ , or the Wisconsin Archaeological Society http://wiarcheologicalsociety.org/ -plus facebook pages). However, one doesn't need to belong to any group to record collections and sites, any citizen can record archaeological or historical sites. Simply photographing the artifacts found and recording as much information (location, date of collection, who collected, etc.) is great information and data for future local historians and archaeologists to use. Going one step further and sending these records to the State Archaeologist office in a state site form (every state has one, see attached Mn forms), will guarantee that the records are permanently archived and that the site/collection area is taken into consideration before most future construction or development projects that fall under the National Historic Preservation Act. You even get to name the site and be listed as the discover for all time... I find that pretty neat.

        The problem right now is organization, in tough economic times the state historical societies and state archaeologist offices have had to scale back on their public education and public relations budgets. To my knowledge, in the Midwest, only Iowa has maintained a full-time staff member to focus exclusively on the general public and organize local archaeological projects and training for interested citizen-scientists and site recorders (http://www.uiowa.edu/~osa/edu/edu.htm). So right now it's down to individual initiative, I guess.

        Good hunting,

        Ryan 


        From: C TRAYLOR <trayloroo@...>
        To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, July 1, 2013 11:44 PM
        Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Welcome newcomers; AAPS Conferemce update

         


        -- 
         Very interesting ... especially the ending and rowing in the same direction. There are many private collections. The owners are afraid to show them for fear of litigation.  What ever is out there may be lost, sent with a trash truck. Probably each of us know of such collections. 
         
        There needs to be a society or group of retirees that can.do this, the personnel need to have training in recording methods, and interviewing the owner about the location and context of each piece.      
        Any hope of this? 
         
        Cal  Traylor    
         
        This message is in English, thank our veterans
        for keeping the front lines .... over there.



        Attachment(s) from Ryan Howell
        2 of 2 File(s)





      • Ted Sojka
        Hello Ryan, Great thoughts to share. I have been to Silver Mound near Hixton, and not only is a source of lithic stone for tools, it has petroglyphs and
        Message 3 of 15 , Jul 24, 2013
        • 0 Attachment

          Hello Ryan,

          Great thoughts to share.  

          I have been to Silver Mound near Hixton, and not only is a source of lithic stone for tools, it has petroglyphs and pictographs of early people who came there to collect stone and leave a sign or offering for what they removed.  I have seen Hixton calcified sandstone points in collections a hundred or more miles away from that site.  They are identifiable.  

          Here along the Driftless area of the Mississippi we have found Knife River Flint, and obsidian point and flakes at excavated sites over the last 100 years.  We were on one of many trade routes called the Road of the Voyageurs on some of the early maps.  It went west and northward from here to Pipestone in Minnesota.  There are finds of copper from Superior, shells from the Gulf and Yucatan, in this area.  

          Trade routes were something people built over generations, marrying along the way and establishing family relationships with people. 1500 miles, I was told was a common length of one of these trade routes.

          Thanks also for your thoughts on identification and location of finds, without the context it just another piece of rock.  

          On Jul 24, 2013, at 9:58 PM, Ryan Howell wrote:

           

          Chris,

          I don't know how any archaeological materials "have no intrinsic value". Each artifact and site is a piece of the puzzle, and future generations will thank you for documenting them. I just finished working in the Erskine, Mn area in Glacial Lake Agassiz recently myself and I was struck by the lithic materials as well. I was finding alot of vein quartz and basalt flakes (things I would expect to find primarily in the Lake Superior basin in NE Minnesota). I talked to a geologist friend of mine and he said the Erskine Glacier pulled alot of material from the Superior basin and deposited in the moraines along the Red River of the North/ Glacial Lake Agassi. I was also struck by the dominance of Knife River Flint (KRF) we saw in almost every major formal tool; points, drills, etc. I was not expecting that much of a KRF signature that far east, but as you say the area is pretty "lithic-poor". We also saw alot of natural-death Bison bones in the plowzone, showing the major reason to come to the wet-prairie area prehistorically and historically.

          Certainly, the Red River/Coteau/Minnesota River waterway is an ancient trade route and would have been a major travel-route between groups on the Northern Plains and the Mississippi River to the east. We find "tribute" bundles of arrows at Cahokia from places as far west as the Republican River in Nebraska and as far north as Silver Mound (Black River Valley) near Hixton, WI. So Cahokia-based trade from the Red River is certain possible, if not probable. Unfortunately, perishables like pemmican or buffalo hides just don't preserve well in the archaeological record so finding their traces would be difficult.

          Happy Hunting,


          Ryan


           



          From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
          To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2013 5:51 PM
          Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Private collections... Reply #2

           
          Thank you, Ryan, for the attachments and guidelines to establishing a new archy-site for protection.

          My own aforementioned farm-fields that have resulted in bits of history into my own keeping are already designated MN sites with legit, recorded numbers with the  UofMN branches here in the region. I am not a freelancer artifact hunter. And only surface finds are rescued from the plowzone. I'm sparingly collecting with the knowledge and oversight of a local Archaeology prof. He's seen what I've gathered and says the sites have no intrinsic value, and is not worried about the broken shards of pottery and stone fragments. He has tons of the "same stuff", he says, in his records already. When I finish getting the assortment cataloged, it is promised to our County historical society's museum for public display and education.

          What I find fascinating about the items, beat up by the farm equipment as they are, is the correlation to the glacial-till deposits 15 miles east, and the bulk of the makers' "utensil" tool-kits. This was a nomadic meat-camp region... too cold to put in crops...a huge bulk of the artifacts are shaped and re-tooled hide scrapers. Busted hammerstones come in a close second. I'm flabbergasted to see what kinds of crap-rock they would stoop to shape into working tools, here in the Valley. In our floodlands, there are no stone materials to find... its the bottom of an archaic glacial-lake (Agassiz)... anything mineral spotted by eye in the dirt is 80% sure to be artifact. Intentionally brought in for some kind of use with the meat-packing industry they conducted for trade-goods farther south.

          My adrenalin-stirring thought is... exactly who were they making tons upon tons of Pemmican and jerky for... possibly trade to Cahokia via water routes from here. I'm convinced that Old World contact was being brought up the Mississippi at least to Cahokia, if not further. How did Ogham get onto that Catlinite disc, I keep pondering...
          -Chris P ... "Crispy"


          From: Ryan Howell <ryan.jayhowell@...>
          To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tuesday, July 2, 2013 7:45 AM
          Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Private collections and Arch Site Recording [2 Attachments]

          [Attachment(s) from Ryan Howell included below]

          Cal,

          I know what you are saying about owners being fearful of showing their collections. I have been told by land owners everything from fears that collecting on their own property is illegal (it is not, all artifacts excepting human burials fall legally under the same laws as mineral rights in US law), to fears that the state or Native American tribes can buy/take their land if they find artifacts (they can't). There is a lot of misunderstanding out there in this area.

          Your also right that most of these collections are disappearing rapidly, most were collected back in the days of animal-pulled plows when the farmer would notice what he/she was hitting or kicking up with the plow (one of the reason's I am working with the Menonite-Amish group is that they are still doing it this way). Nowadays with two-story sized tractors nobody would notice what they hit with the farm machinery unless it was huge, so modern artifacts are ignored or worse ground to dust under the machinery. Also as some of the original discoverer's die the information about where and when the collection was found die with them. Most of their kids either never get the story, or lack interest in it until it is too late. I can't count the number of times I have found great collections in local libraries or high-schools that were donated by unknown parties and say something like "Johnson Farm" on them. 

          Prior to the 1960's almost all archaeology that was known in my area (Minnesota/Wisconsin) was generated by local landowners, amateur historians and artifact collectors and the state historical societies simply recorded information that was sent to them. This work, performed almost exclusively by local interested citizens, formed the baseline that modern archaeology and historical site research works from nowadays in the area and we still go back to the old letters, artifact tracing and hand-drawn maps to learn about these sites.

          There are great artifact collecting societies in most states, along with state archaeological societies (for instance the Minnesota Archaeological Society http://mnarchsociety.org/ , or the Wisconsin Archaeological Society http://wiarcheologicalsociety.org/ -plus facebook pages). However, one doesn't need to belong to any group to record collections and sites, any citizen can record archaeological or historical sites. Simply photographing the artifacts found and recording as much information (location, date of collection, who collected, etc.) is great information and data for future local historians and archaeologists to use. Going one step further and sending these records to the State Archaeologist office in a state site form (every state has one, see attached Mn forms), will guarantee that the records are permanently archived and that the site/collection area is taken into consideration before most future construction or development projects that fall under the National Historic Preservation Act. You even get to name the site and be listed as the discover for all time... I find that pretty neat.

          The problem right now is organization, in tough economic times the state historical societies and state archaeologist offices have had to scale back on their public education and public relations budgets. To my knowledge, in the Midwest, only Iowa has maintained a full-time staff member to focus exclusively on the general public and organize local archaeological projects and training for interested citizen-scientists and site recorders (http://www.uiowa.edu/~osa/edu/edu.htm). So right now it's down to individual initiative, I guess.

          Good hunting,

          Ryan 


          From: C TRAYLOR <trayloroo@...>
          To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Monday, July 1, 2013 11:44 PM
          Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Welcome newcomers; AAPS Conferemce update

           


          -- 
           Very interesting ... especially the ending and rowing in the same direction. There are many private collections. The owners are afraid to show them for fear of litigation.  What ever is out there may be lost, sent with a trash truck. Probably each of us know of such collections. 
           
          There needs to be a society or group of retirees that can.do this, the personnel need to have training in recording methods, and interviewing the owner about the location and context of each piece.      
          Any hope of this? 
           
          Cal  Traylor    
           
          This message is in English, thank our veterans
          for keeping the front lines .... over there.



          Attachment(s) from Ryan Howell
          2 of 2 File(s)







        • Ryan Howell
          Ted, Yeah, Hixton SS is one of those lithic materials that certainly travels. The current record for that material going the distance that I know of is a few
          Message 4 of 15 , Jul 25, 2013
          • 0 Attachment
            Ted,

            Yeah, Hixton SS is one of those lithic materials that certainly travels. The current "record" for that material going the distance that I know of is a few that have been found in central Kentucky, nearly 650 miles as the crow flies! In the Driftless Area we have obsidian from Yellowstone and Knife River as you mention, but also the Hopewell-related mounds in western Wisconsin (the area I am most familiar with) have large bifaces from the Spanish Diggings orthoquartzite from near Hartville (east central Wyoming) and what look like agate and porcellanite from the Bighorn Mountains far to the north of that area.

            One of the most interesting sites I came across while working in Wyoming was the Hagen site on the Missouri River near the eastern Montana border with ND. The site was excavated early in the 1940-1950's by Bill Mulloy from Laramie and is not well known nowadays. It had burial mounds or what looked like mounds, highly unusual on the Plains, and in the mounds were dozens of obsidian blanks/bifaces cached up and ready to go. In my mind it is the best candidate for a "trading station" along what one would assume would be the main obsidian trade-route of the Missouri River. That may be an example of direct-trade, where large quantities of ready-made obsidian was being collected to ship down river or at least to the next middle-man. I think the last estimate that I heard for obsidian use by the Hopewell was 10-15 tons of material.

            Ryan


            From: Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...>
            To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2013 10:21 PM
            Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: ryan

             

            Hello Ryan,

            Great thoughts to share.  

            I have been to Silver Mound near Hixton, and not only is a source of lithic stone for tools, it has petroglyphs and pictographs of early people who came there to collect stone and leave a sign or offering for what they removed.  I have seen Hixton calcified sandstone points in collections a hundred or more miles away from that site.  They are identifiable.  

            Here along the Driftless area of the Mississippi we have found Knife River Flint, and obsidian point and flakes at excavated sites over the last 100 years.  We were on one of many trade routes called the Road of the Voyageurs on some of the early maps.  It went west and northward from here to Pipestone in Minnesota.  There are finds of copper from Superior, shells from the Gulf and Yucatan, in this area.  

            Trade routes were something people built over generations, marrying along the way and establishing family relationships with people. 1500 miles, I was told was a common length of one of these trade routes.

            Thanks also for your thoughts on identification and location of finds, without the context it just another piece of rock.  

            On Jul 24, 2013, at 9:58 PM, Ryan Howell wrote:

             

            Chris,

            I don't know how any archaeological materials "have no intrinsic value". Each artifact and site is a piece of the puzzle, and future generations will thank you for documenting them. I just finished working in the Erskine, Mn area in Glacial Lake Agassiz recently myself and I was struck by the lithic materials as well. I was finding alot of vein quartz and basalt flakes (things I would expect to find primarily in the Lake Superior basin in NE Minnesota). I talked to a geologist friend of mine and he said the Erskine Glacier pulled alot of material from the Superior basin and deposited in the moraines along the Red River of the North/ Glacial Lake Agassi. I was also struck by the dominance of Knife River Flint (KRF) we saw in almost every major formal tool; points, drills, etc. I was not expecting that much of a KRF signature that far east, but as you say the area is pretty "lithic-poor". We also saw alot of natural-death Bison bones in the plowzone, showing the major reason to come to the wet-prairie area prehistorically and historically.

            Certainly, the Red River/Coteau/Minnesota River waterway is an ancient trade route and would have been a major travel-route between groups on the Northern Plains and the Mississippi River to the east. We find "tribute" bundles of arrows at Cahokia from places as far west as the Republican River in Nebraska and as far north as Silver Mound (Black River Valley) near Hixton, WI. So Cahokia-based trade from the Red River is certain possible, if not probable. Unfortunately, perishables like pemmican or buffalo hides just don't preserve well in the archaeological record so finding their traces would be difficult.

            Happy Hunting,


            Ryan


             



            From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
            To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2013 5:51 PM
            Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Private collections... Reply #2

             
            Thank you, Ryan, for the attachments and guidelines to establishing a new archy-site for protection.

            My own aforementioned farm-fields that have resulted in bits of history into my own keeping are already designated MN sites with legit, recorded numbers with the  UofMN branches here in the region. I am not a freelancer artifact hunter. And only surface finds are rescued from the plowzone. I'm sparingly collecting with the knowledge and oversight of a local Archaeology prof. He's seen what I've gathered and says the sites have no intrinsic value, and is not worried about the broken shards of pottery and stone fragments. He has tons of the "same stuff", he says, in his records already. When I finish getting the assortment cataloged, it is promised to our County historical society's museum for public display and education.

            What I find fascinating about the items, beat up by the farm equipment as they are, is the correlation to the glacial-till deposits 15 miles east, and the bulk of the makers' "utensil" tool-kits. This was a nomadic meat-camp region... too cold to put in crops...a huge bulk of the artifacts are shaped and re-tooled hide scrapers. Busted hammerstones come in a close second. I'm flabbergasted to see what kinds of crap-rock they would stoop to shape into working tools, here in the Valley. In our floodlands, there are no stone materials to find... its the bottom of an archaic glacial-lake (Agassiz)... anything mineral spotted by eye in the dirt is 80% sure to be artifact. Intentionally brought in for some kind of use with the meat-packing industry they conducted for trade-goods farther south.

            My adrenalin-stirring thought is... exactly who were they making tons upon tons of Pemmican and jerky for... possibly trade to Cahokia via water routes from here. I'm convinced that Old World contact was being brought up the Mississippi at least to Cahokia, if not further. How did Ogham get onto that Catlinite disc, I keep pondering...
            -Chris P ... "Crispy"


            From: Ryan Howell <ryan.jayhowell@...>
            To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tuesday, July 2, 2013 7:45 AM
            Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Private collections and Arch Site Recording [2 Attachments]

            [Attachment(s) from Ryan Howell included below]

            Cal,

            I know what you are saying about owners being fearful of showing their collections. I have been told by land owners everything from fears that collecting on their own property is illegal (it is not, all artifacts excepting human burials fall legally under the same laws as mineral rights in US law), to fears that the state or Native American tribes can buy/take their land if they find artifacts (they can't). There is a lot of misunderstanding out there in this area.

            Your also right that most of these collections are disappearing rapidly, most were collected back in the days of animal-pulled plows when the farmer would notice what he/she was hitting or kicking up with the plow (one of the reason's I am working with the Menonite-Amish group is that they are still doing it this way). Nowadays with two-story sized tractors nobody would notice what they hit with the farm machinery unless it was huge, so modern artifacts are ignored or worse ground to dust under the machinery. Also as some of the original discoverer's die the information about where and when the collection was found die with them. Most of their kids either never get the story, or lack interest in it until it is too late. I can't count the number of times I have found great collections in local libraries or high-schools that were donated by unknown parties and say something like "Johnson Farm" on them. 

            Prior to the 1960's almost all archaeology that was known in my area (Minnesota/Wisconsin) was generated by local landowners, amateur historians and artifact collectors and the state historical societies simply recorded information that was sent to them. This work, performed almost exclusively by local interested citizens, formed the baseline that modern archaeology and historical site research works from nowadays in the area and we still go back to the old letters, artifact tracing and hand-drawn maps to learn about these sites.

            There are great artifact collecting societies in most states, along with state archaeological societies (for instance the Minnesota Archaeological Society http://mnarchsociety.org/ , or the Wisconsin Archaeological Society http://wiarcheologicalsociety.org/ -plus facebook pages). However, one doesn't need to belong to any group to record collections and sites, any citizen can record archaeological or historical sites. Simply photographing the artifacts found and recording as much information (location, date of collection, who collected, etc.) is great information and data for future local historians and archaeologists to use. Going one step further and sending these records to the State Archaeologist office in a state site form (every state has one, see attached Mn forms), will guarantee that the records are permanently archived and that the site/collection area is taken into consideration before most future construction or development projects that fall under the National Historic Preservation Act. You even get to name the site and be listed as the discover for all time... I find that pretty neat.

            The problem right now is organization, in tough economic times the state historical societies and state archaeologist offices have had to scale back on their public education and public relations budgets. To my knowledge, in the Midwest, only Iowa has maintained a full-time staff member to focus exclusively on the general public and organize local archaeological projects and training for interested citizen-scientists and site recorders (http://www.uiowa.edu/~osa/edu/edu.htm). So right now it's down to individual initiative, I guess.

            Good hunting,

            Ryan 


            From: C TRAYLOR <trayloroo@...>
            To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, July 1, 2013 11:44 PM
            Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Welcome newcomers; AAPS Conferemce update

             


            -- 
             Very interesting ... especially the ending and rowing in the same direction. There are many private collections. The owners are afraid to show them for fear of litigation.  What ever is out there may be lost, sent with a trash truck. Probably each of us know of such collections. 
             
            There needs to be a society or group of retirees that can.do this, the personnel need to have training in recording methods, and interviewing the owner about the location and context of each piece.      
            Any hope of this? 
             
            Cal  Traylor    
             
            This message is in English, thank our veterans
            for keeping the front lines .... over there.



            Attachment(s) from Ryan Howell
            2 of 2 File(s)









          • William Conner
            As an amateur archaeologist of long standing, my experience is that sites on private property are not subject to any law restricting their ownership of
            Message 5 of 15 , Jul 27, 2013
            • 0 Attachment
              As an amateur archaeologist of long standing, my experience is that sites on private property are not subject to any law restricting their ownership of whatever is found there.  I always had landowner permission to collect and keep the artifacts. 
               
              Two of my best sites once on private land are now on public parkland.  All of my sites are in south and central Ohio.  All of my artifacts in my collection are marked with initials of the name of the site as listed in my book, "Iron Age America: Before Columbus." 
               
              My wife inherited a collection of clearly native points and axes from grandparents' farmland turned up by the plow. 
               
              William Conner
              Columbus, O. 
               

              From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
              To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2013 6:21 PM
              Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Private collections and Arch Site Recording
               
              Hello, Cal Here's a tidbit just to fill in another corner of your data-maps, if it makes a diff... My avocational interest and dedicated self-study of Native traditions between Montana, ND & MN have been ongoing for the last 35 yrs. Also, only lagging behind by a handful of years has been my parallel curiosity with OOPAS in petroglyph, design, artifact and symbology which have been attributed to Native Americans... but if viewed with the open mind and eye...are of Old World basis and comparative origins. Petroglyph-carved script (aka 'scribble' to those without vision) across N. and S. Americas can be translated by mainstream dictionaries into old Semitics, Celtic and or Scandinavian vocabulary. There are a handful of farmer's fields, here in the northern Red River Valley, north of Moorhead, MN, that i've become quite familiar with, collecting just after spring planting and the first rain. Many samples of  Catlinite pipestone (southern MN), Knife River Flint (western ND) and a 'greasy' feeling, metamorphed green-stone from the eastern Great Lakes region bespeak of the trade network that flowed thru these waterways. One of my heart-thumping finds showed up early in my discovery of these fields as resource. It came to me in two pieces, found a year apart. Catlinite discoid, slightly triangular as a symbolic ax-shape, about 3.5" across the long direction, 3" across the short, about 5/8th in. thick. It was amassed with etched and re-cut figures laying across each other, indicating long possession with the original owner, at least 600 yrs ago. If not more.  A horned owl figure (like the symbol for Mercury; no stem) was deeply cut on one side, an arrow with rays above its shaft on the other side. But spider-webbed with many other animal or figure icons, and possible sight-lines for astronomy, laid on over generations. I was a rookie researcher. I had dear and close Native mentors from whom I was learning a new worldview. This piece of Catlinite was a powerful and ancient artifact that I felt too much respect to retain myself, and in honoring its obvious ceremonial use, I gifted it back to where I thought it belonged, my adopted "Good Uncle" Lekshi Washte, who was a healer and holyman in his tribe. Years later he passed on and the piece disappeared into his family. Sold? Given away? Dunno. Not a few months after that I began to recognize Celtic Ogham as a script and method of writing. My fist struck my forehead in a 'coulda hadda V8" moment. All around the periphery of the piece had been a blatant, probably legible, string of clear, Celtic Ogham script. To this day I do not even have a photo of it, and many a four-letter word has slipped my lips over that oversight! But there's the experience clip for your studies... with my own eyes I've seen portable Ogham here in the upper Red River Valley of the North. For what it's worth. (Ms.) Chris Patenaude,


              From: Ryan Howell <ryan.jayhowell@...>
              To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, July 2, 2013 7:45 AM
              Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Private collections and Arch Site Recording [2 Attachments]
              [Attachment(s) from Ryan Howell included below]
              Cal,

              I know what you are saying about owners being fearful of showing their collections. I have been told by land owners everything from fears that collecting on their own property is illegal (it is not, all artifacts excepting human burials fall legally under the same laws as mineral rights in US law), to fears that the state or Native American tribes can buy/take their land if they find artifacts (they can't). There is a lot of misunderstanding out there in this area.

              Your also right that most of these collections are disappearing rapidly, most were collected back in the days of animal-pulled plows when the farmer would notice what he/she was hitting or kicking up with the plow (one of the reason's I am working with the Menonite-Amish group is that they are still doing it this way). Nowadays with two-story sized tractors nobody would notice what they hit with the farm machinery unless it was huge, so modern artifacts are ignored or worse ground to dust under the machinery. Also as some of the original discoverer's die the information about where and when the collection was found die with them. Most of their kids either never get the story, or lack interest in it until it is too late. I can't count the number of times I have found great collections in local libraries or high-schools that were donated by unknown parties and say something like "Johnson Farm" on them. 

              Prior to the 1960's almost all archaeology that was known in my area (Minnesota/Wisconsin) was generated by local landowners, amateur historians and artifact collectors and the state historical societies simply recorded information that was sent to them. This work, performed almost exclusively by local interested citizens, formed the baseline that modern archaeology and historical site research works from nowadays in the area and we still go back to the old letters, artifact tracing and hand-drawn maps to learn about these sites.

              There are great artifact collecting societies in most states, along with state archaeological societies (for instance the Minnesota Archaeological Society http://mnarchsociety.org/ , or the Wisconsin Archaeological Society http://wiarcheologicalsociety.org/ -plus facebook pages). However, one doesn't need to belong to any group to record collections and sites, any citizen can record archaeological or historical sites. Simply photographing the artifacts found and recording as much information (location, date of collection, who collected, etc.) is great information and data for future local historians and archaeologists to use. Going one step further and sending these records to the State Archaeologist office in a state site form (every state has one, see attached Mn forms), will guarantee that the records are permanently archived and that the site/collection area is taken into consideration before most future construction or development projects that fall under the National Historic Preservation Act. You even get to name the site and be listed as the discover for all time... I find that pretty neat.

              The problem right now is organization, in tough economic times the state historical societies and state archaeologist offices have had to scale back on their public education and public relations budgets. To my knowledge, in the Midwest, only Iowa has maintained a full-time staff member to focus exclusively on the general public and organize local archaeological projects and training for interested citizen-scientists and site recorders (http://www.uiowa.edu/~osa/edu/edu.htm). So right now it's down to individual initiative, I guess.

              Good hunting,

              Ryan 

              From: C TRAYLOR <trayloroo@...>
              To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, July 1, 2013 11:44 PM
              Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Welcome newcomers; AAPS Conferemce update
               
              -- 
               Very interesting ... especially the ending and rowing in the same direction. There are many private collections. The owners are afraid to show them for fear of litigation.  What ever is out there may be lost, sent with a trash truck. Probably each of us know of such collections. 
               
              There needs to be a society or group of retirees that can.do this, the personnel need to have training in recording methods, and interviewing the owner about the location and context of each piece.      
              Any hope of this? 
               
              Cal  Traylor    
               
              This message is in English, thank our veterans
              for keeping the front lines .... over there.
              Attachment(s) from Ryan Howell
              2 of 2 File(s)
            • Chris Patenaude
              Hi Ryan.. you said: I don t know how any archaeological materials have no intrinsic value . Exactly. I kept a straight face when he said that, but even as
              Message 6 of 15 , Jul 29, 2013
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi Ryan..
                you said:
                "I don't know how any archaeological materials "have no intrinsic value"."
                Exactly. I kept a straight face when he said that, but even as an avocational, my internal jaw and respect for the man dropped to floor level.
                Indeed, I fully well know what kind of data is possibly presented by the gathering of these knap-chips, pottery shards and broken tools, even if it is 'just' plow-zone rescue chunks. It is for the future eye that I save these bits and pieces, not the one duddle in office now. He has to retire sooner or later. His younger replacement will, hopefully, be less self-absorbed. That archy I spoke with is also a firm believer in the "faux-hoax POV" surrounding the Kensington Runestone. Where as I helped a local researcher, Michael Zalar, do the graphix and layout of his book on it. I'm convinced of the KRS's authenticity.
                -c



                From: Ryan Howell <ryan.jayhowell@...>
                To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2013 9:58 PM
                Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Private collections... Reply #2



                Chris,

                I don't know how any archaeological materials "have no intrinsic value". Each artifact and site is a piece of the puzzle, and future generations will thank you for documenting them. I just finished working in the Erskine, Mn area in Glacial Lake Agassiz recently myself and I was struck by the lithic materials as well. I was finding alot of vein quartz and basalt flakes (things I would expect to find primarily in the Lake Superior basin in NE Minnesota). I talked to a geologist friend of mine and he said the Erskine Glacier pulled alot of material from the Superior basin and deposited in the moraines along the Red River of the North/ Glacial Lake Agassi. I was also struck by the dominance of Knife River Flint (KRF) we saw in almost every major formal tool; points, drills, etc. I was not expecting that much of a KRF signature that far east, but as you say the area is pretty "lithic-poor". We also saw alot of natural-death Bison bones in the plowzone, showing the major reason to come to the wet-prairie area prehistorically and historically.

                Certainly, the Red River/Coteau/Minnesota River waterway is an ancient trade route and would have been a major travel-route between groups on the Northern Plains and the Mississippi River to the east. We find "tribute" bundles of arrows at Cahokia from places as far west as the Republican River in Nebraska and as far north as Silver Mound (Black River Valley) near Hixton, WI. So Cahokia-based trade from the Red River is certain possible, if not probable. Unfortunately, perishables like pemmican or buffalo hides just don't preserve well in the archaeological record so finding their traces would be difficult.

                Happy Hunting,


                Ryan


                 



                From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
                To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2013 5:51 PM
                Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Private collections... Reply #2

                 
                Thank you, Ryan, for the attachments and guidelines to establishing a new archy-site for protection.

                My own aforementioned farm-fields that have resulted in bits of history into my own keeping are already designated MN sites with legit, recorded numbers with the  UofMN branches here in the region. I am not a freelancer artifact hunter. And only surface finds are rescued from the plowzone. I'm sparingly collecting with the knowledge and oversight of a local Archaeology prof. He's seen what I've gathered and says the sites have no intrinsic value, and is not worried about the broken shards of pottery and stone fragments. He has tons of the "same stuff", he says, in his records already. When I finish getting the assortment cataloged, it is promised to our County historical society's museum for public display and education.

                What I find fascinating about the items, beat up by the farm equipment as they are, is the correlation to the glacial-till deposits 15 miles east, and the bulk of the makers' "utensil" tool-kits. This was a nomadic meat-camp region... too cold to put in crops...a huge bulk of the artifacts are shaped and re-tooled hide scrapers. Busted hammerstones come in a close second. I'm flabbergasted to see what kinds of crap-rock they would stoop to shape into working tools, here in the Valley. In our floodlands, there are no stone materials to find... its the bottom of an archaic glacial-lake (Agassiz)... anything mineral spotted by eye in the dirt is 80% sure to be artifact. Intentionally brought in for some kind of use with the meat-packing industry they conducted for trade-goods farther south.

                My adrenalin-stirring thought is... exactly who were they making tons upon tons of Pemmican and jerky for... possibly trade to Cahokia via water routes from here. I'm convinced that Old World contact was being brought up the Mississippi at least to Cahokia, if not further. How did Ogham get onto that Catlinite disc, I keep pondering...
                -Chris P ... "Crispy"


                From: Ryan Howell <ryan.jayhowell@...>
                To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tuesday, July 2, 2013 7:45 AM
                Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Private collections and Arch Site Recording [2 Attachments]

                [Attachment(s) from Ryan Howell included below]

                Cal,

                I know what you are saying about owners being fearful of showing their collections. I have been told by land owners everything from fears that collecting on their own property is illegal (it is not, all artifacts excepting human burials fall legally under the same laws as mineral rights in US law), to fears that the state or Native American tribes can buy/take their land if they find artifacts (they can't). There is a lot of misunderstanding out there in this area.

                Your also right that most of these collections are disappearing rapidly, most were collected back in the days of animal-pulled plows when the farmer would notice what he/she was hitting or kicking up with the plow (one of the reason's I am working with the Menonite-Amish group is that they are still doing it this way). Nowadays with two-story sized tractors nobody would notice what they hit with the farm machinery unless it was huge, so modern artifacts are ignored or worse ground to dust under the machinery. Also as some of the original discoverer's die the information about where and when the collection was found die with them. Most of their kids either never get the story, or lack interest in it until it is too late. I can't count the number of times I have found great collections in local libraries or high-schools that were donated by unknown parties and say something like "Johnson Farm" on them. 

                Prior to the 1960's almost all archaeology that was known in my area (Minnesota/Wisconsin) was generated by local landowners, amateur historians and artifact collectors and the state historical societies simply recorded information that was sent to them. This work, performed almost exclusively by local interested citizens, formed the baseline that modern archaeology and historical site research works from nowadays in the area and we still go back to the old letters, artifact tracing and hand-drawn maps to learn about these sites.

                There are great artifact collecting societies in most states, along with state archaeological societies (for instance the Minnesota Archaeological Society http://mnarchsociety.org/ , or the Wisconsin Archaeological Society http://wiarcheologicalsociety.org/ -plus facebook pages). However, one doesn't need to belong to any group to record collections and sites, any citizen can record archaeological or historical sites. Simply photographing the artifacts found and recording as much information (location, date of collection, who collected, etc.) is great information and data for future local historians and archaeologists to use. Going one step further and sending these records to the State Archaeologist office in a state site form (every state has one, see attached Mn forms), will guarantee that the records are permanently archived and that the site/collection area is taken into consideration before most future construction or development projects that fall under the National Historic Preservation Act. You even get to name the site and be listed as the discover for all time... I find that pretty neat.

                The problem right now is organization, in tough economic times the state historical societies and state archaeologist offices have had to scale back on their public education and public relations budgets. To my knowledge, in the Midwest, only Iowa has maintained a full-time staff member to focus exclusively on the general public and organize local archaeological projects and training for interested citizen-scientists and site recorders (http://www.uiowa.edu/~osa/edu/edu.htm). So right now it's down to individual initiative, I guess.

                Good hunting,

                Ryan 


                From: C TRAYLOR <trayloroo@...>
                To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, July 1, 2013 11:44 PM
                Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Welcome newcomers; AAPS Conferemce update

                 


                -- 
                 Very interesting ... especially the ending and rowing in the same direction. There are many private collections. The owners are afraid to show them for fear of litigation.  What ever is out there may be lost, sent with a trash truck. Probably each of us know of such collections. 
                 
                There needs to be a society or group of retirees that can.do this, the personnel need to have training in recording methods, and interviewing the owner about the location and context of each piece.      
                Any hope of this? 
                 
                Cal  Traylor    
                 
                This message is in English, thank our veterans
                for keeping the front lines .... over there.



                Attachment(s) from Ryan Howell
                2 of 2 File(s)









              • Chris Patenaude
                yup, Knife River Flint was a huge trade item all across the northern tier, where ever the paddles, feet and packs went. Tons of it were quarried over thousands
                Message 7 of 15 , Jul 29, 2013
                • 0 Attachment
                  yup, Knife River Flint was a huge trade item all across the northern tier, where ever the paddles, feet and packs went. Tons of it were quarried over thousands of years and spread from Washington State to eastern Canada, south to Tennesee and west to Colorado or Utah. Can't mis-identify the stuff, it is so unique. Comes from central North Dakota along tributaries leading into the Missouri River, for those who have not seen it before. It is a moving 'tag' to mark the trade routes along the great and small waterways of the central continent. It is a buttery, burnt-caramel brown like solid light-molasses in color. Translucent around the edges. Gorgeous stuff to knap.
                  -c



                  From: Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...>
                  To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2013 10:21 PM
                  Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: ryan




                  Hello Ryan,

                  Great thoughts to share.  

                  I have been to Silver Mound near Hixton, and not only is a source of lithic stone for tools, it has petroglyphs and pictographs of early people who came there to collect stone and leave a sign or offering for what they removed.  I have seen Hixton calcified sandstone points in collections a hundred or more miles away from that site.  They are identifiable.  

                  Here along the Driftless area of the Mississippi we have found Knife River Flint, and obsidian point and flakes at excavated sites over the last 100 years.  We were on one of many trade routes called the Road of the Voyageurs on some of the early maps.  It went west and northward from here to Pipestone in Minnesota.  There are finds of copper from Superior, shells from the Gulf and Yucatan, in this area.  

                  Trade routes were something people built over generations, marrying along the way and establishing family relationships with people. 1500 miles, I was told was a common length of one of these trade routes.

                  Thanks also for your thoughts on identification and location of finds, without the context it just another piece of rock.  

                  On Jul 24, 2013, at 9:58 PM, Ryan Howell wrote:

                   

                  Chris,

                  I don't know how any archaeological materials "have no intrinsic value". Each artifact and site is a piece of the puzzle, and future generations will thank you for documenting them. I just finished working in the Erskine, Mn area in Glacial Lake Agassiz recently myself and I was struck by the lithic materials as well. I was finding alot of vein quartz and basalt flakes (things I would expect to find primarily in the Lake Superior basin in NE Minnesota). I talked to a geologist friend of mine and he said the Erskine Glacier pulled alot of material from the Superior basin and deposited in the moraines along the Red River of the North/ Glacial Lake Agassi. I was also struck by the dominance of Knife River Flint (KRF) we saw in almost every major formal tool; points, drills, etc. I was not expecting that much of a KRF signature that far east, but as you say the area is pretty "lithic-poor". We also saw alot of natural-death Bison bones in the plowzone, showing the major reason to come to the wet-prairie area prehistorically and historically.

                  Certainly, the Red River/Coteau/Minnesota River waterway is an ancient trade route and would have been a major travel-route between groups on the Northern Plains and the Mississippi River to the east. We find "tribute" bundles of arrows at Cahokia from places as far west as the Republican River in Nebraska and as far north as Silver Mound (Black River Valley) near Hixton, WI. So Cahokia-based trade from the Red River is certain possible, if not probable. Unfortunately, perishables like pemmican or buffalo hides just don't preserve well in the archaeological record so finding their traces would be difficult.

                  Happy Hunting,


                  Ryan


                   



                  From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
                  To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2013 5:51 PM
                  Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Private collections... Reply #2

                   
                  Thank you, Ryan, for the attachments and guidelines to establishing a new archy-site for protection.

                  My own aforementioned farm-fields that have resulted in bits of history into my own keeping are already designated MN sites with legit, recorded numbers with the  UofMN branches here in the region. I am not a freelancer artifact hunter. And only surface finds are rescued from the plowzone. I'm sparingly collecting with the knowledge and oversight of a local Archaeology prof. He's seen what I've gathered and says the sites have no intrinsic value, and is not worried about the broken shards of pottery and stone fragments. He has tons of the "same stuff", he says, in his records already. When I finish getting the assortment cataloged, it is promised to our County historical society's museum for public display and education.

                  What I find fascinating about the items, beat up by the farm equipment as they are, is the correlation to the glacial-till deposits 15 miles east, and the bulk of the makers' "utensil" tool-kits. This was a nomadic meat-camp region... too cold to put in crops...a huge bulk of the artifacts are shaped and re-tooled hide scrapers. Busted hammerstones come in a close second. I'm flabbergasted to see what kinds of crap-rock they would stoop to shape into working tools, here in the Valley. In our floodlands, there are no stone materials to find... its the bottom of an archaic glacial-lake (Agassiz)... anything mineral spotted by eye in the dirt is 80% sure to be artifact. Intentionally brought in for some kind of use with the meat-packing industry they conducted for trade-goods farther south.

                  My adrenalin-stirring thought is... exactly who were they making tons upon tons of Pemmican and jerky for... possibly trade to Cahokia via water routes from here. I'm convinced that Old World contact was being brought up the Mississippi at least to Cahokia, if not further. How did Ogham get onto that Catlinite disc, I keep pondering...
                  -Chris P ... "Crispy"


                  From: Ryan Howell <ryan.jayhowell@...>
                  To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Tuesday, July 2, 2013 7:45 AM
                  Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Private collections and Arch Site Recording [2 Attachments]

                  [Attachment(s) from Ryan Howell included below]

                  Cal,

                  I know what you are saying about owners being fearful of showing their collections. I have been told by land owners everything from fears that collecting on their own property is illegal (it is not, all artifacts excepting human burials fall legally under the same laws as mineral rights in US law), to fears that the state or Native American tribes can buy/take their land if they find artifacts (they can't). There is a lot of misunderstanding out there in this area.

                  Your also right that most of these collections are disappearing rapidly, most were collected back in the days of animal-pulled plows when the farmer would notice what he/she was hitting or kicking up with the plow (one of the reason's I am working with the Menonite-Amish group is that they are still doing it this way). Nowadays with two-story sized tractors nobody would notice what they hit with the farm machinery unless it was huge, so modern artifacts are ignored or worse ground to dust under the machinery. Also as some of the original discoverer's die the information about where and when the collection was found die with them. Most of their kids either never get the story, or lack interest in it until it is too late. I can't count the number of times I have found great collections in local libraries or high-schools that were donated by unknown parties and say something like "Johnson Farm" on them. 

                  Prior to the 1960's almost all archaeology that was known in my area (Minnesota/Wisconsin) was generated by local landowners, amateur historians and artifact collectors and the state historical societies simply recorded information that was sent to them. This work, performed almost exclusively by local interested citizens, formed the baseline that modern archaeology and historical site research works from nowadays in the area and we still go back to the old letters, artifact tracing and hand-drawn maps to learn about these sites.

                  There are great artifact collecting societies in most states, along with state archaeological societies (for instance the Minnesota Archaeological Society http://mnarchsociety.org/ , or the Wisconsin Archaeological Society http://wiarcheologicalsociety.org/ -plus facebook pages). However, one doesn't need to belong to any group to record collections and sites, any citizen can record archaeological or historical sites. Simply photographing the artifacts found and recording as much information (location, date of collection, who collected, etc.) is great information and data for future local historians and archaeologists to use. Going one step further and sending these records to the State Archaeologist office in a state site form (every state has one, see attached Mn forms), will guarantee that the records are permanently archived and that the site/collection area is taken into consideration before most future construction or development projects that fall under the National Historic Preservation Act. You even get to name the site and be listed as the discover for all time... I find that pretty neat.

                  The problem right now is organization, in tough economic times the state historical societies and state archaeologist offices have had to scale back on their public education and public relations budgets. To my knowledge, in the Midwest, only Iowa has maintained a full-time staff member to focus exclusively on the general public and organize local archaeological projects and training for interested citizen-scientists and site recorders (http://www.uiowa.edu/~osa/edu/edu.htm). So right now it's down to individual initiative, I guess.

                  Good hunting,

                  Ryan 


                  From: C TRAYLOR <trayloroo@...>
                  To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, July 1, 2013 11:44 PM
                  Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Welcome newcomers; AAPS Conferemce update

                   


                  -- 
                   Very interesting ... especially the ending and rowing in the same direction. There are many private collections. The owners are afraid to show them for fear of litigation.  What ever is out there may be lost, sent with a trash truck. Probably each of us know of such collections. 
                   
                  There needs to be a society or group of retirees that can.do this, the personnel need to have training in recording methods, and interviewing the owner about the location and context of each piece.      
                  Any hope of this? 
                   
                  Cal  Traylor    
                   
                  This message is in English, thank our veterans
                  for keeping the front lines .... over there.



                  Attachment(s) from Ryan Howell
                  2 of 2 File(s)











                • Chris Patenaude
                  Silicified Sandstone! THAT s what I ve got in my samples... only this one is an olive green and comes from Lake Erie region, last I could track down. I call it
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jul 29, 2013
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Silicified Sandstone! THAT's what I've got in my samples... only this one is an olive green and comes from Lake Erie region, last I could track down.
                    I call it my "greasy-green" because of the odd texture it gives between the fingers... textured, but smooth. Under a microscope, the sand-grains break THRU the crystals, showing some metamorphic heat was endured(?)  Do you have a name for it on the books? Also, under magnification, the sandgrains are multi-hued and originally from an assorted-mineral resource when first eroded and deposited who knows when. But to the naked eye, the colors are collapsed like printing pixels and we perceive it as a muddy green... but it glows around the edges just like the Hixon SS does in pictures.
                    https://www.google.com/search?q=hixton+silicified+sandstone&client=firefox-a&hs=sdy&sa=X&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&tbm=isch&tbo=u&source=univ&ei=t_72UbTAGsvyyAG3q4DoDQ&ved=0CDoQsAQ&biw=1280&bih=897
                    -crispy



                    From: Ryan Howell <ryan.jayhowell@...>
                    To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, July 25, 2013 10:49 AM
                    Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Hixton and Trade Routes



                    Ted,

                    Yeah, Hixton SS is one of those lithic materials that certainly travels. The current "record" for that material going the distance that I know of is a few that have been found in central Kentucky, nearly 650 miles as the crow flies! In the Driftless Area we have obsidian from Yellowstone and Knife River as you mention, but also the Hopewell-related mounds in western Wisconsin (the area I am most familiar with) have large bifaces from the Spanish Diggings orthoquartzite from near Hartville (east central Wyoming) and what look like agate and porcellanite from the Bighorn Mountains far to the north of that area.

                    One of the most interesting sites I came across while working in Wyoming was the Hagen site on the Missouri River near the eastern Montana border with ND. The site was excavated early in the 1940-1950's by Bill Mulloy from Laramie and is not well known nowadays. It had burial mounds or what looked like mounds, highly unusual on the Plains, and in the mounds were dozens of obsidian blanks/bifaces cached up and ready to go. In my mind it is the best candidate for a "trading station" along what one would assume would be the main obsidian trade-route of the Missouri River. That may be an example of direct-trade, where large quantities of ready-made obsidian was being collected to ship down river or at least to the next middle-man. I think the last estimate that I heard for obsidian use by the Hopewell was 10-15 tons of material.

                    Ryan


                    From: Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...>
                    To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2013 10:21 PM
                    Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: ryan

                     

                    Hello Ryan,

                    Great thoughts to share.  

                    I have been to Silver Mound near Hixton, and not only is a source of lithic stone for tools, it has petroglyphs and pictographs of early people who came there to collect stone and leave a sign or offering for what they removed.  I have seen Hixton calcified sandstone points in collections a hundred or more miles away from that site.  They are identifiable.  

                    Here along the Driftless area of the Mississippi we have found Knife River Flint, and obsidian point and flakes at excavated sites over the last 100 years.  We were on one of many trade routes called the Road of the Voyageurs on some of the early maps.  It went west and northward from here to Pipestone in Minnesota.  There are finds of copper from Superior, shells from the Gulf and Yucatan, in this area.  

                    Trade routes were something people built over generations, marrying along the way and establishing family relationships with people. 1500 miles, I was told was a common length of one of these trade routes.

                    Thanks also for your thoughts on identification and location of finds, without the context it just another piece of rock.  

                    On Jul 24, 2013, at 9:58 PM, Ryan Howell wrote:

                     

                    Chris,

                    I don't know how any archaeological materials "have no intrinsic value". Each artifact and site is a piece of the puzzle, and future generations will thank you for documenting them. I just finished working in the Erskine, Mn area in Glacial Lake Agassiz recently myself and I was struck by the lithic materials as well. I was finding alot of vein quartz and basalt flakes (things I would expect to find primarily in the Lake Superior basin in NE Minnesota). I talked to a geologist friend of mine and he said the Erskine Glacier pulled alot of material from the Superior basin and deposited in the moraines along the Red River of the North/ Glacial Lake Agassi. I was also struck by the dominance of Knife River Flint (KRF) we saw in almost every major formal tool; points, drills, etc. I was not expecting that much of a KRF signature that far east, but as you say the area is pretty "lithic-poor". We also saw alot of natural-death Bison bones in the plowzone, showing the major reason to come to the wet-prairie area prehistorically and historically.

                    Certainly, the Red River/Coteau/Minnesota River waterway is an ancient trade route and would have been a major travel-route between groups on the Northern Plains and the Mississippi River to the east. We find "tribute" bundles of arrows at Cahokia from places as far west as the Republican River in Nebraska and as far north as Silver Mound (Black River Valley) near Hixton, WI. So Cahokia-based trade from the Red River is certain possible, if not probable. Unfortunately, perishables like pemmican or buffalo hides just don't preserve well in the archaeological record so finding their traces would be difficult.

                    Happy Hunting,


                    Ryan


                     



                    From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
                    To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Wednesday, July 24, 2013 5:51 PM
                    Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Private collections... Reply #2

                     
                    Thank you, Ryan, for the attachments and guidelines to establishing a new archy-site for protection.

                    My own aforementioned farm-fields that have resulted in bits of history into my own keeping are already designated MN sites with legit, recorded numbers with the  UofMN branches here in the region. I am not a freelancer artifact hunter. And only surface finds are rescued from the plowzone. I'm sparingly collecting with the knowledge and oversight of a local Archaeology prof. He's seen what I've gathered and says the sites have no intrinsic value, and is not worried about the broken shards of pottery and stone fragments. He has tons of the "same stuff", he says, in his records already. When I finish getting the assortment cataloged, it is promised to our County historical society's museum for public display and education.

                    What I find fascinating about the items, beat up by the farm equipment as they are, is the correlation to the glacial-till deposits 15 miles east, and the bulk of the makers' "utensil" tool-kits. This was a nomadic meat-camp region... too cold to put in crops...a huge bulk of the artifacts are shaped and re-tooled hide scrapers. Busted hammerstones come in a close second. I'm flabbergasted to see what kinds of crap-rock they would stoop to shape into working tools, here in the Valley. In our floodlands, there are no stone materials to find... its the bottom of an archaic glacial-lake (Agassiz)... anything mineral spotted by eye in the dirt is 80% sure to be artifact. Intentionally brought in for some kind of use with the meat-packing industry they conducted for trade-goods farther south.

                    My adrenalin-stirring thought is... exactly who were they making tons upon tons of Pemmican and jerky for... possibly trade to Cahokia via water routes from here. I'm convinced that Old World contact was being brought up the Mississippi at least to Cahokia, if not further. How did Ogham get onto that Catlinite disc, I keep pondering...
                    -Chris P ... "Crispy"


                    From: Ryan Howell <ryan.jayhowell@...>
                    To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Tuesday, July 2, 2013 7:45 AM
                    Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Private collections and Arch Site Recording [2 Attachments]

                    [Attachment(s) from Ryan Howell included below]

                    Cal,

                    I know what you are saying about owners being fearful of showing their collections. I have been told by land owners everything from fears that collecting on their own property is illegal (it is not, all artifacts excepting human burials fall legally under the same laws as mineral rights in US law), to fears that the state or Native American tribes can buy/take their land if they find artifacts (they can't). There is a lot of misunderstanding out there in this area.

                    Your also right that most of these collections are disappearing rapidly, most were collected back in the days of animal-pulled plows when the farmer would notice what he/she was hitting or kicking up with the plow (one of the reason's I am working with the Menonite-Amish group is that they are still doing it this way). Nowadays with two-story sized tractors nobody would notice what they hit with the farm machinery unless it was huge, so modern artifacts are ignored or worse ground to dust under the machinery. Also as some of the original discoverer's die the information about where and when the collection was found die with them. Most of their kids either never get the story, or lack interest in it until it is too late. I can't count the number of times I have found great collections in local libraries or high-schools that were donated by unknown parties and say something like "Johnson Farm" on them. 

                    Prior to the 1960's almost all archaeology that was known in my area (Minnesota/Wisconsin) was generated by local landowners, amateur historians and artifact collectors and the state historical societies simply recorded information that was sent to them. This work, performed almost exclusively by local interested citizens, formed the baseline that modern archaeology and historical site research works from nowadays in the area and we still go back to the old letters, artifact tracing and hand-drawn maps to learn about these sites.

                    There are great artifact collecting societies in most states, along with state archaeological societies (for instance the Minnesota Archaeological Society http://mnarchsociety.org/ , or the Wisconsin Archaeological Society http://wiarcheologicalsociety.org/ -plus facebook pages). However, one doesn't need to belong to any group to record collections and sites, any citizen can record archaeological or historical sites. Simply photographing the artifacts found and recording as much information (location, date of collection, who collected, etc.) is great information and data for future local historians and archaeologists to use. Going one step further and sending these records to the State Archaeologist office in a state site form (every state has one, see attached Mn forms), will guarantee that the records are permanently archived and that the site/collection area is taken into consideration before most future construction or development projects that fall under the National Historic Preservation Act. You even get to name the site and be listed as the discover for all time... I find that pretty neat.

                    The problem right now is organization, in tough economic times the state historical societies and state archaeologist offices have had to scale back on their public education and public relations budgets. To my knowledge, in the Midwest, only Iowa has maintained a full-time staff member to focus exclusively on the general public and organize local archaeological projects and training for interested citizen-scientists and site recorders (http://www.uiowa.edu/~osa/edu/edu.htm). So right now it's down to individual initiative, I guess.

                    Good hunting,

                    Ryan 


                    From: C TRAYLOR <trayloroo@...>
                    To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Monday, July 1, 2013 11:44 PM
                    Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Welcome newcomers; AAPS Conferemce update

                     


                    -- 
                     Very interesting ... especially the ending and rowing in the same direction. There are many private collections. The owners are afraid to show them for fear of litigation.  What ever is out there may be lost, sent with a trash truck. Probably each of us know of such collections. 
                     
                    There needs to be a society or group of retirees that can.do this, the personnel need to have training in recording methods, and interviewing the owner about the location and context of each piece.      
                    Any hope of this? 
                     
                    Cal  Traylor    
                     
                    This message is in English, thank our veterans
                    for keeping the front lines .... over there.



                    Attachment(s) from Ryan Howell
                    2 of 2 File(s)













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