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Re: Rant about Ice Ages and real science

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  • Rick Osmon
    Sorry it took so l ooong to get back to this. Been really, really busy. Clovis is not so much a culture as it is a technology. The gist of what the academics
    Message 1 of 22 , Aug 11, 2007
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      Sorry it took so l ooong to get back to this. Been really, really busy.

      "Clovis" is not so much a culture as it is a technology. The gist of what the academics are saying is that whatever catastrophic event wiped out the megafuana also was the demise of the people who knew how to make those points.

      The YDE deposits sit on top of Clovis sites, not under them.

      Also germane to this discussion and my hypothesis, is the description by the principle investigators  that the Michigan site is considered to be very near the main impact site.

      "Gainey, north of Detroit, Michigan, is a PaleoAmerican campsite that was located a few tens of kilometers from the southern margin of the Laurentide Ice Sheet at 12.9 ka. Gainey gave its name to the distinctive fluted point style found there, and Gainey sediments contained some of the highest abundances of YDB markers found, suggesting that the YD impact was centered nearby"

      Remember the Martian meteorite that supposedly had fossilized bacteria in it? It was found in Antarctica and dates to about the same time as the Younger Dryas event. But I never did find any information about how NASA knew it was of Martian origin, only how they dated it (ice cores). Somewhere around here, I have a photo of myself, my then Congressional Rep, and one of the NASA scientists who worked on that project. He couldn't answer my question either, since his specialty was other than astronomy.

      That age, 13,000 years, is also the age where C14 dating accuracy starts falling off drastically.

      If you consider that all that carbon, in places 5 mm thick, was in the atmosphere before settling over the entire northern 2/3rds of North America, you can see how much sunlight was blocked for some indeterminate period. My other major question is, does a corresponding layer sit atop the Siberian mammoths? Predominant winds pattern says "almost certainly", but I don't think anybody has actually looked for it.

      The other intriguing aspect of the timing is Plato's dating of Atlantis' demise...but I'll save that one for later.

      P.S. -- Geodes are fossilized hailstones

      Oz

      --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "bigalemc2" <puppet@...> wrote:
      >
      > Rick -
      >
      > Something to add to our discussion -
      >
      > This is about Clovis points, and has to do with their duration. (Are
      > Clovis points and their dissemination on-topic on this forum? I am not
      > at all sure where the line gets drawn. Are we mostly about the period
      > when there was likely commerce between North America and Europe? And if
      > so, how much afield can we go?)
      >
      > I was watching something on National Geographic (I believe) about a
      > theory that there was a cometary impact called the Younger Dryas Impact
      > Event that may have occurred shortly before the Clovis points started
      > showing up all over North America.
      >
      > They made the point that Clovis points are all found in a very narrow
      > time window, which is something I hadn't heard before.
      >
      > The scientists on the show actually were posing the Younger Dryas event
      > as a possible killer of the mammoths.
      >
      > Although TV science shows all point to humans as the exterminators of
      > the mammoths, in scientific circles it is NOT anything close to a
      > confirmed "kill". I've never considered it a remote possibility, partly
      > from an intuitive POV, but also thinking about how many mammoths there
      > were and how widespread they were, and to think that the very few humans
      > on the continent could have even located all of them seemed ludicrous.
      >
      > Now, to find out that Clovis was only around for a short time makes my
      > argument even stronger.
      >
      > And with the Younger Dryas impact event option out there, too, maybe the
      > humans killed all the mammoths fantasy can be laid to rest before too
      > long.
      >
      > Here is what Wikipedia -> Younger Dryas Impact Event
      > <> has to say
      > about the impact:
      >
      > The evidence for such an impact event is a layer of unusualmaterials
      > (Nanodiamonds, magnetic grains, carbon spherules, magnetic spherules,
      > charcoal, soot, fullerenesenriched in Helium 3, etc.) at the very bottom
      > of the "black mat" oforganic material that marks the beginning of the
      > Younger Dryas.
      >
      > It is hypothesized that this impact event brought about theextinction of
      > many North American large mammals. These animals included camels,
      > mammoths, the short-faced bear and numerous other species. The markers
      > for the impact event also appear at the end of the Clovis culture.
      > The "black mat", on the show, was explained as burned carbon, probably
      > from massive conflagrations set off by the impact, something they said
      > that had been thought to be possibility but not actually seen before.
      > All the Clovis points were in the layers just above that black mat.
      >
      > Wikipedia -> Clovis point <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clovis_points>
      > has these two passages:
      > The Clovis tradition "known as a sophisticated stone technology basedon
      > a point that was fastened to the end of hunting spear flourishedbetween
      > 12,000 and 11,000 B.P. in the central Plains, on their westernmargins,
      > and over a large area of what is now the eastern United States.
      >
      > ...At this time, there have been no Clovis points found in the Old World
      > or in Alaska. However, the Solutrean hypothesis suggests that Clovis
      > culture developed from the similar Solutreanof southwestern Europe, and
      > that the technology may have been broughtto America through migration
      > along the Atlantic pack ice edge usingsurvival skills similar to that of
      > modern Inuit people.
      > The duration is incredibly short, IMHO, suggesting to me some kind of
      > disruption ended the Clovis culture.
      >
      > I am familiar with the Solutrean hypothesis and think it is prima facie
      > evidence of European-American contact then, if not outright commerce.
      > (Yeah, this is certainly on-topic!)
      >
      > The timing of European-American contact so close to this Younger Dryas
      > event, as well as to the extermination of the mammoths makes for
      > interesting contemplations... Puzzles of this type are exciting to delve
      > into, knowing that the evidence available now is insufficient and that
      > as further developments come along the ideas will change. What will be
      > the end reality, I wonder?
      >
      > I imagine most of you know more than I do about this. Anyone want to
      > chip in?
      >
      > . . . . Steve
      >
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