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Re: clovis not first article

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  • bigalemc2
    Ted - You may know this, but in Europe being an amateur or hobbyist does not mean your finds are discounted, as they are in the USA. There, since they don t
    Message 1 of 9 , Jun 8, 2013
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      Ted -

      You may know this, but in Europe being an amateur or hobbyist does not mean your finds are discounted, as they are in the USA.  There, since they don't have the history of a Clovis First mindset (which still affects the way things are done here), when amateurs find artifacts, the academics immediately get involved, for all the reasons you can think of.  American archaeology is so screwed up by all the things they DO NOT want to find.  They concluded back in the 1800s what the history here was, and they WILL NOT allow any facts top come to light that are in disagreement.

      All this, in an area of study where they essentially don't know jack.  It is all similar to "the man behind the curtain" - the one we are not supposed to look behind - and neither are they.  Europe doe not have that insane curtain.

      BTW, if I haven't already, I HIGHLY recommend a book by Christopher Hardaker called  <B>The First American: The Suppressed Story of the People Who Discovered the New World</b> about the shenanigans  archaeology pulled at a site in Mexico, fully 50 years ago, due to their dogma dictating everything, no matter what the forensic science showed.  Hardaker himself is an archaeologist, and he things the episode is a very dark side of science.

      It doesn't literally talk about the first people here, because the location dictates that people landed elsewhere - but the evidence is that they were here so much earlier than we thought.  VERY much earlier...

      Steve

      --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Ted Sojka wrote:
      >
      > Any evidence of earlier than accepted finds is of interest to many.
      > Yes no mention was made of the finds in South America, or the more
      > recent finds on the Savanna River. It newspaper reporting. It is
      > always written by someone who may not have the full background
      > necessary for a scientific journal. Thanks for bringing up the points
      > you have in your e mail. I hope it will encourage others to do more
      > research in to all of what there is on a subject.
      >
      > The latest show on Neanderthals that aired on NOVA was most unusual
      > about a group skeletons found in a cave that were 49,000 yeas old. I
      > imagine it is online, a title something like "Cold Case for the
      > Neanderthals".
      >
      > Susan sent me the Old Copper Website, and they do have some
      > interesting articles, put many are from amateurs in archeology or
      > geology, and are just hobbyists. If it relates to early man and might
      > help a diffusionist argument, I put it on site.
      >
      > Thanks for your comments
      > On Jun 7, 2013, at 10:12 AM, bigalemc2 wrote:
      >
      > >
      > > Ted -
      > >
      > > I am confused. What is the connection to the Old Copper Complex?
      > >
      > > Also, the article did not anywhere that I saw acknowledge several
      > > things:
      > >
      > > 1. The Monte Verde site in Chile, the one that in 1997 broke the
      > > back of the Clovis First paradigm.
      > >
      > > 2. The work of Dennis Stanford (especially on the finds on the
      > > Delmarva Peninsula) showing that people were here as long ago as
      > > 22,000 years ago. And that they came from EUROPE. 14,000 years ago
      > > is like WAY late.
      > >
      > > 3. The fact that like 90% of Clovis sites are east of the
      > > Mississippi, with pretty good density.
      > >
      > > 4. There is a FIFTH haplotype (X), which came from they don't know
      > > where. This shows up in the mtDNA of the Iroquois and other NE
      > > Indian groups.
      > >
      > > I thought the article was Canadian-centric and fairly ill-informed.
      > > The comments were even worse - very ignorant for the most part. I
      > > ca never figure out why people who don't know jack about a subject
      > > feel the need to impose their ignorance upon anyone else.
      > >
      > > Steve
      > >
      > >
      > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Ted Sojka wrote:
      > > >
      > > > Another good site sent to me by Larry Furo on the Old Copper Complex
      > > > site.
      > > >
      > > > http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/story/2012/07/12/sci-paisley-caves-clovis.html
      > > >
      > > > this from CBC news about a point found in Oregon along with older
      > > DNA
      > > > evidence.
      > > > ted
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      >
    • Susan
      Steve (and Ted), Ancient Waterways Society member Robin Mueller Hammer from Minnesota started a new YahooGroup last year about this time called The Old Copper
      Message 2 of 9 , Jun 8, 2013
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        Steve (and Ted), 

        Ancient Waterways Society member Robin Mueller Hammer from Minnesota started a new YahooGroup last year about this time called The Old Copper Complex and Ancient Waterways America.  You fellows must have missed the message Robin sent to this group at that time with  information about the group which has grown quickly and Robin is doing an excellent job administering the site.   Vince Barrows and a number of members of our group here post there regularly. Here is Robin's post:  

         http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ancient_waterways_society/message/3080


        --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "bigalemc2" wrote:
        >
        > Ted -
        > I am confused. What is the connection to the Old Copper Complex?
        > Also, the article did not anywhere that I saw acknowledge several
        > things:
        > 1. The Monte Verde site in Chile, the one that in 1997 broke the back of
        > the Clovis First paradigm.
        > 2. The work of Dennis Stanford (especially on the finds on the Delmarva
        > Peninsula) showing that people were here as long ago as 22,000 years
        > ago. And that they came from EUROPE. 14,000 years ago is like WAY
        > late.
        > 3. The fact that like 90% of Clovis sites are east of the Mississippi,
        > with pretty good density.
        > 4. There is a FIFTH haplotype (X), which came from they don't know
        > where. This shows up in the mtDNA of the Iroquois and other NE Indian
        > groups.
        > I thought the article was Canadian-centric and fairly ill-informed. The
        > comments were even worse - very ignorant for the most part. I ca never
        > figure out why people who don't know jack about a subject feel the need
        > to impose their ignorance upon anyone else.
        > Steve
        >
        > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Ted Sojka wrote:
        > >
        > > Another good site sent to me by Larry Furo on the Old Copper Complex
        > > site.
        > >
        > >
        > http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/story/2012/07/12/sci-paisley-caves-clo\
        > vis.html
        > >
        > > this from CBC news about a point found in Oregon along with older DNA
        > > evidence.
        > > ted
        > >
        >
      • Susan English
        It is a Facebook site, not a YahooGroup. Susan English -- from my iPad
        Message 3 of 9 , Jun 8, 2013
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          It is a Facebook site, not a YahooGroup. 

          Susan English -- from my iPad

          On Jun 9, 2013, at 1:55 AM, "Susan" <beldingenglish@...> wrote:

           

          Steve (and Ted), 


          Ancient Waterways Society member Robin Mueller Hammer from Minnesota started a new YahooGroup last year about this time called The Old Copper Complex and Ancient Waterways America.  You fellows must have missed the message Robin sent to this group at that time with  information about the group which has grown quickly and Robin is doing an excellent job administering the site.   Vince Barrows and a number of members of our group here post there regularly. Here is Robin's post:  



          --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "bigalemc2" wrote:
          >
          > Ted -
          > I am confused. What is the connection to the Old Copper Complex?
          > Also, the article did not anywhere that I saw acknowledge several
          > things:
          > 1. The Monte Verde site in Chile, the one that in 1997 broke the back of
          > the Clovis First paradigm.
          > 2. The work of Dennis Stanford (especially on the finds on the Delmarva
          > Peninsula) showing that people were here as long ago as 22,000 years
          > ago. And that they came from EUROPE. 14,000 years ago is like WAY
          > late.
          > 3. The fact that like 90% of Clovis sites are east of the Mississippi,
          > with pretty good density.
          > 4. There is a FIFTH haplotype (X), which came from they don't know
          > where. This shows up in the mtDNA of the Iroquois and other NE Indian
          > groups.
          > I thought the article was Canadian-centric and fairly ill-informed. The
          > comments were even worse - very ignorant for the most part. I ca never
          > figure out why people who don't know jack about a subject feel the need
          > to impose their ignorance upon anyone else.
          > Steve
          >
          > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Ted Sojka wrote:
          > >
          > > Another good site sent to me by Larry Furo on the Old Copper Complex
          > > site.
          > >
          > >
          > http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/story/2012/07/12/sci-paisley-caves-clo\
          > vis.html
          > >
          > > this from CBC news about a point found in Oregon along with older DNA
          > > evidence.
          > > ted
          > >
          >

        • Ted Sojka
          Thanks Susan, and I do get Robin s e mails. It was a Larry Furo link from that site that Steve was commenting on in this exchange.
          Message 4 of 9 , Jun 9, 2013
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            Thanks Susan, and I do get Robin's e mails.  It was a Larry Furo link from that site that Steve was commenting on in this exchange.  
            On Jun 9, 2013, at 1:55 AM, Susan wrote:

             

            Steve (and Ted), 


            Ancient Waterways Society member Robin Mueller Hammer from Minnesota started a new YahooGroup last year about this time called The Old Copper Complex and Ancient Waterways America.  You fellows must have missed the message Robin sent to this group at that time with  information about the group which has grown quickly and Robin is doing an excellent job administering the site.   Vince Barrows and a number of members of our group here post there regularly. Here is Robin's post:  



            --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "bigalemc2" wrote:
            >
            > Ted -
            > I am confused. What is the connection to the Old Copper Complex?
            > Also, the article did not anywhere that I saw acknowledge several
            > things:
            > 1. The Monte Verde site in Chile, the one that in 1997 broke the back of
            > the Clovis First paradigm.
            > 2. The work of Dennis Stanford (especially on the finds on the Delmarva
            > Peninsula) showing that people were here as long ago as 22,000 years
            > ago. And that they came from EUROPE. 14,000 years ago is like WAY
            > late.
            > 3. The fact that like 90% of Clovis sites are east of the Mississippi,
            > with pretty good density.
            > 4. There is a FIFTH haplotype (X), which came from they don't know
            > where. This shows up in the mtDNA of the Iroquois and other NE Indian
            > groups.
            > I thought the article was Canadian-centric and fairly ill-informed. The
            > comments were even worse - very ignorant for the most part. I ca never
            > figure out why people who don't know jack about a subject feel the need
            > to impose their ignorance upon anyone else.
            > Steve
            >
            > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Ted Sojka wrote:
            > >
            > > Another good site sent to me by Larry Furo on the Old Copper Complex
            > > site.
            > >
            > >
            > http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/story/2012/07/12/sci-paisley-caves-clo\
            > vis.html
            > >
            > > this from CBC news about a point found in Oregon along with older DNA
            > > evidence.
            > > ted
            > >
            >


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