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elephants

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  • Ted Sojka
    ELEPHANTS IN AMERICA In view of the large number of mastodon and mammoth bones and skeletons found in various places of North America WB Scott has composed a
    Message 1 of 12 , Apr 5 5:11 PM
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      ELEPHANTS IN AMERICA



      In view of the large number of mastodon and mammoth bones and
      skeletons found in various places of North America WB Scott has
      composed a short illustrated article American Elephant Myths in the
      new periodical called Scribners Magazine for April 1887 pp 469 478 The
      author gives no decided opinion of his own whether the elephant or
      mammoth has existed in America in Columbus time or since then but the
      elephant heads found on basso relievos in Yucatan are indeed very
      puzzling for the unbelievers We are sorry to say that Mr Scott forgot
      to quote the only author and traveller who ever personally saw
      elephants in the eastern parts of what is now the United States This
      is Davyd Ingram who in 1 568 1 569 travelled from the Rio de Minas on
      the Gulph of Mexico to Cape Breton in Acadia and whose Relation is
      printed in the rare book of Col Chas Jennett Weston Documents
      connected with the history of South Carolina London 1856 4 vo pp 5 24
      The places which he names are unidentifiable except perhaps Norumbega
      and elephants are mentioned among other quadrupeds seen by him and
      those who uphold the truthfulness of his record can prove through him
      that the present Indian race and the explorers of the white race as
      well were coeval with the elephants The animals seen by Davyd Ingram
      who was a sailor and travelled with two companions only were p 14
      buffes beares horses kyne wolves foxes 6ezre goates shcepe hares and
      conyes and the following will give a further idea of his marvelous
      sights and discoveries p 15
    • Jither
      Regarding elephants in Old America, at least in these (Vermont) environs: either an elephant s or a mamoth s bones were found, I believe in Victorian times,
      Message 2 of 12 , Apr 6 6:51 AM
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        Regarding elephants in Old America, at least in these (Vermont) environs:  either an elephant’s or a mamoth’s bones were found, I believe in Victorian times, near the RR tracks, in Charlotte, Vermont (just east of Lake Champlain);  age unknown.  Also, there are some curious place names: Elephant Valley/Elephant Hill, in So. Royalton, Vt (home of the Beehive Domes-   another mystery).

         

        It’s extremely interesting that any (wild) elephant would be sighted by anyone in historic times in No. America!  Would the temperatures/environment allow for that?  I don’t think so.  Could it possibly be a remnant of a type of elephant that ‘evolved’ over here, to live in what must, for it, have been an impossible climate, and then died out?  If so, there must be remains that could be dated, all over the place!

         

        And then there are the remains of the tropical/palm forests that have been dug up in Alaska.  Hmmmm. 

         

        -Jither (in Vermont, USA)

         

         

      • Ted Sojka
        Jither The elephant hill is a place also in Northeast Iowa also, and looks like an elephant in profile. I also was told that long after mammoths were around,
        Message 3 of 12 , Apr 6 7:06 AM
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          Jither
          The elephant hill is a place also in Northeast Iowa also, and looks like an elephant in profile.  I also was told that long after mammoths were around, the shape of their hide was made from other animal skins for certain get together-s, and reunions of parts of tribes long separated.   
          ted

          On Apr 6, 2013, at 8:51 AM, Jither wrote:

           

          Regarding elephants in Old America, at least in these (Vermont) environs:  either an elephant’s or a mamoth’s bones were found, I believe in Victorian times, near the RR tracks, in Charlotte, Vermont (just east of Lake Champlain);  age unknown.  Also, there are some curious place names: Elephant Valley/Elephant Hill, in So. Royalton, Vt (home of the Beehive Domes-   another mystery).

           

          It’s extremely interesting that any (wild) elephant would be sighted by anyone in historic times in No. America!  Would the temperatures/environment allow for that?  I don’t think so.  Could it possibly be a remnant of a type of elephant that ‘evolved’ over here, to live in what must, for it, have been an impossible climate, and then died out?  If so, there must be remains that could be dated, all over the place!

           

          And then there are the remains of the tropical/palm forests that have been dug up in Alaska.  Hmmmm. 

           

          -Jither (in Vermont, USA)

           

           



        • Larry Hancock
          Elephant Hill in S. Royalton is aptly named, but I doubt it has anything to do with elephants in ancient times.  ... From: Ted Sojka
          Message 4 of 12 , Apr 6 7:25 AM
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          Elephant Hill in S. Royalton is aptly named, but I doubt it has anything to do with elephants in ancient times. 

          --- On Sat, 4/6/13, Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...> wrote:

          From: Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...>
          Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: elephants
          To: "Jither" <jither@...>
          Cc: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Saturday, April 6, 2013, 10:06 AM

           

          Jither
          The elephant hill is a place also in Northeast Iowa also, and looks like an elephant in profile.  I also was told that long after mammoths were around, the shape of their hide was made from other animal skins for certain get together-s, and reunions of parts of tribes long separated.   
          ted

          On Apr 6, 2013, at 8:51 AM, Jither wrote:

           

          Regarding elephants in Old America, at least in these (Vermont) environs:  either an elephant’s or a mamoth’s bones were found, I believe in Victorian times, near the RR tracks, in Charlotte, Vermont (just east of Lake Champlain);  age unknown.  Also, there are some curious place names: Elephant Valley/Elephant Hill, in So. Royalton, Vt (home of the Beehive Domes-   another mystery).

           

          It’s extremely interesting that any (wild) elephant would be sighted by anyone in historic times in No. America!  Would the temperatures/environment allow for that?  I don’t think so.  Could it possibly be a remnant of a type of elephant that ‘evolved’ over here, to live in what must, for it, have been an impossible climate, and then died out?  If so, there must be remains that could be dated, all over the place!

           

          And then there are the remains of the tropical/palm forests that have been dug up in Alaska.  Hmmmm. 

           

          -Jither (in Vermont, USA)

           

           



        • Jither
          Larry- Why do you say Elephant Hill in S. Royalton is aptly named? From: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
          Message 5 of 12 , Apr 7 4:47 PM
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            Larry-   Why do you say Elephant Hill in S. Royalton is aptly named?

             

             

            From: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry Hancock
            Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 10:26 AM
            To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: elephants [2 Attachments]

             

             

            [Attachment(s) from Larry Hancock included below]

            Elephant Hill in S. Royalton is aptly named, but I doubt it has anything to do with elephants in ancient times. 

            --- On Sat, 4/6/13, Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...> wrote:


            From: Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...>
            Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: elephants
            To: "Jither" <jither@...>
            Cc: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Saturday, April 6, 2013, 10:06 AM

             

            Jither

            The elephant hill is a place also in Northeast Iowa also, and looks like an elephant in profile.  I also was told that long after mammoths were around, the shape of their hide was made from other animal skins for certain get together-s, and reunions of parts of tribes long separated.   

            ted

             

            On Apr 6, 2013, at 8:51 AM, Jither wrote:



             

             

            Regarding elephants in Old America, at least in these (Vermont) environs:  either an elephant’s or a mamoth’s bones were found, I believe in Victorian times, near the RR tracks, in Charlotte, Vermont (just east of Lake Champlain);  age unknown.  Also, there are some curious place names: Elephant Valley/Elephant Hill, in So. Royalton, Vt (home of the Beehive Domes-   another mystery).

             

            It’s extremely interesting that any (wild) elephant would be sighted by anyone in historic times in No. America!  Would the temperatures/environment allow for that?  I don’t think so.  Could it possibly be a remnant of a type of elephant that ‘evolved’ over here, to live in what must, for it, have been an impossible climate, and then died out?  If so, there must be remains that could be dated, all over the place!

             

            And then there are the remains of the tropical/palm forests that have been dug up in Alaska.  Hmmmm. 

             

            -Jither (in Vermont, USA)

             

             

            Error! Filename not specified.

             

          • Larry Hancock
            Because it looks like an elephant. ... From: Jither Subject: RE: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: elephants To:
            Message 6 of 12 , Apr 7 5:23 PM
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              Because it looks like an elephant.

              --- On Sun, 4/7/13, Jither <jither@...> wrote:

              From: Jither <jither@...>
              Subject: RE: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: elephants
              To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Sunday, April 7, 2013, 7:47 PM

               

              Larry-   Why do you say Elephant Hill in S. Royalton is aptly named?

               

               

              From: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry Hancock
              Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 10:26 AM
              To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: elephants [2 Attachments]

               

               

              [Attachment(s) from Larry Hancock included below]

              Elephant Hill in S. Royalton is aptly named, but I doubt it has anything to do with elephants in ancient times. 

              --- On Sat, 4/6/13, Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...> wrote:


              From: Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...>
              Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: elephants
              To: "Jither" <jither@...>
              Cc: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Saturday, April 6, 2013, 10:06 AM

               

              Jither

              The elephant hill is a place also in Northeast Iowa also, and looks like an elephant in profile.  I also was told that long after mammoths were around, the shape of their hide was made from other animal skins for certain get together-s, and reunions of parts of tribes long separated.   

              ted

               

              On Apr 6, 2013, at 8:51 AM, Jither wrote:



               

               

              Regarding elephants in Old America, at least in these (Vermont) environs:  either an elephant’s or a mamoth’s bones were found, I believe in Victorian times, near the RR tracks, in Charlotte, Vermont (just east of Lake Champlain);  age unknown.  Also, there are some curious place names: Elephant Valley/Elephant Hill, in So. Royalton, Vt (home of the Beehive Domes-   another mystery).

               

              It’s extremely interesting that any (wild) elephant would be sighted by anyone in historic times in No. America!  Would the temperatures/environment allow for that?  I don’t think so.  Could it possibly be a remnant of a type of elephant that ‘evolved’ over here, to live in what must, for it, have been an impossible climate, and then died out?  If so, there must be remains that could be dated, all over the place!

               

              And then there are the remains of the tropical/palm forests that have been dug up in Alaska.  Hmmmm. 

               

              -Jither (in Vermont, USA)

               

               

              Error! Filename not specified.

               

            • C TRAYLOR
              -- Try this in your search window: pygmy elephant california =========================== * *
              Message 7 of 12 , Apr 7 6:21 PM
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              • Jither
                Oh. You mean it looks like it has a trunk and tusks? Can you find a pic, and paste it into an email (I don’t open attachments- they rarely work for me
                Message 8 of 12 , Apr 8 6:40 AM
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                  Oh.  You mean it looks like it has a trunk and tusks?  Can you find a pic, and paste it into an email (I don’t open attachments-  they rarely work for me when I try).  We have a mountain in Vermont, called Camel’s Hump, but no way does it look like a camel or a camel’s hump.  No one seems to be able to figure out the name.

                   

                  I’ve been to and driven by Elephant Hill in So. Royalton, Vt many times and no way does it look like any kind of animal, so I don’t know why you said it’s aptly named.  Nonsensical, to me, at least.  I was thinking perhaps someone found elephant bones there (as in Charlotte, Vt), but you want to insist the hill looks like an elephant.  Jeesh.

                   

                   

                  From: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry Hancock
                  Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 8:24 PM
                  To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: elephants

                   

                   

                  Because it looks like an elephant.

                  --- On Sun, 4/7/13, Jither <jither@...> wrote:


                  From: Jither <jither@...>
                  Subject: RE: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: elephants
                  To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Sunday, April 7, 2013, 7:47 PM

                   

                  Larry-   Why do you say Elephant Hill in S. Royalton is aptly named?

                   

                   

                  From: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry Hancock
                  Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 10:26 AM
                  To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: elephants [2 Attachments]

                   

                   

                  [Attachment(s) from Larry Hancock included below]

                  Elephant Hill in S. Royalton is aptly named, but I doubt it has anything to do with elephants in ancient times. 

                  --- On Sat, 4/6/13, Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...> wrote:


                  From: Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...>
                  Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: elephants
                  To: "Jither" <jither@...>
                  Cc: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Saturday, April 6, 2013, 10:06 AM

                   

                  Jither

                  The elephant hill is a place also in Northeast Iowa also, and looks like an elephant in profile.  I also was told that long after mammoths were around, the shape of their hide was made from other animal skins for certain get together-s, and reunions of parts of tribes long separated.   

                  ted

                   

                  On Apr 6, 2013, at 8:51 AM, Jither wrote:

                   

                   

                   

                  Regarding elephants in Old America, at least in these (Vermont) environs:  either an elephant’s or a mamoth’s bones were found, I believe in Victorian times, near the RR tracks, in Charlotte, Vermont (just east of Lake Champlain);  age unknown.  Also, there are some curious place names: Elephant Valley/Elephant Hill, in So. Royalton, Vt (home of the Beehive Domes-   another mystery).

                   

                  It’s extremely interesting that any (wild) elephant would be sighted by anyone in historic times in No. America!  Would the temperatures/environment allow for that?  I don’t think so.  Could it possibly be a remnant of a type of elephant that ‘evolved’ over here, to live in what must, for it, have been an impossible climate, and then died out?  If so, there must be remains that could be dated, all over the place!

                   

                  And then there are the remains of the tropical/palm forests that have been dug up in Alaska.  Hmmmm. 

                   

                  -Jither (in Vermont, USA)

                   

                   

                  Error! Filename not specified.

                   

                • Jither
                  Thank you!!!! Never heard of these pygmy elephants! I read the Wiki article on them. Seems these California Channel Island pygmy elephants were still
                  Message 9 of 12 , Apr 8 6:52 AM
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                    Thank you!!!!  Never heard of these pygmy elephants!   I read the Wiki article on them.  Seems these California Channel Island pygmy elephants were still living around 10,000 to 11,000 years ago-  indeed, prehistoric.  But historically, could some type of elephant or mammoth been alive in No. America?  That is, even pre-Columbus?  There were northern traders (mainly French) and fishermen (Eng/Irish/Norse) for many years before Columbus came over, in the St Lawrence watershed area, and continuing down the coast of New England;  the Grand Banks, for example, was fished for cod long before Columbus.  So, maybe these European folk sighted elephants?   I still don’t think so, just because the climate would not allow. 

                     

                    Your thoughts?

                     

                     

                    From: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of C TRAYLOR
                    Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 9:21 PM
                    To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: elephants

                     

                     



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                           pygmy elephant california      

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                  • Larry Hancock
                    I posted Google Earth photos originally. Complete elephant from tail to trunk, but legless. The S. Royalton tag is in the middle of the body. ... From: Jither
                    Message 10 of 12 , Apr 8 7:21 AM
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                      I posted Google Earth photos originally. Complete elephant from tail to trunk, but legless. The S. Royalton tag is in the middle of the body.

                      --- On Mon, 4/8/13, Jither <jither@...> wrote:

                      From: Jither <jither@...>
                      Subject: RE: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: elephants
                      To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Monday, April 8, 2013, 9:40 AM

                       

                      Oh.  You mean it looks like it has a trunk and tusks?  Can you find a pic, and paste it into an email (I don’t open attachments-  they rarely work for me when I try).  We have a mountain in Vermont, called Camel’s Hump, but no way does it look like a camel or a camel’s hump.  No one seems to be able to figure out the name.

                       

                      I’ve been to and driven by Elephant Hill in So. Royalton, Vt many times and no way does it look like any kind of animal, so I don’t know why you said it’s aptly named.  Nonsensical, to me, at least.  I was thinking perhaps someone found elephant bones there (as in Charlotte, Vt), but you want to insist the hill looks like an elephant.  Jeesh.

                       

                       

                      From: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry Hancock
                      Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 8:24 PM
                      To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: elephants

                       

                       

                      Because it looks like an elephant.

                      --- On Sun, 4/7/13, Jither <jither@...> wrote:


                      From: Jither <jither@...>
                      Subject: RE: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: elephants
                      To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Sunday, April 7, 2013, 7:47 PM

                       

                      Larry-   Why do you say Elephant Hill in S. Royalton is aptly named?

                       

                       

                      From: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry Hancock
                      Sent: Saturday, April 06, 2013 10:26 AM
                      To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: elephants [2 Attachments]

                       

                       

                      [Attachment(s) from Larry Hancock included below]

                      Elephant Hill in S. Royalton is aptly named, but I doubt it has anything to do with elephants in ancient times. 

                      --- On Sat, 4/6/13, Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...> wrote:


                      From: Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...>
                      Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: elephants
                      To: "Jither" <jither@...>
                      Cc: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Saturday, April 6, 2013, 10:06 AM

                       

                      Jither

                      The elephant hill is a place also in Northeast Iowa also, and looks like an elephant in profile.  I also was told that long after mammoths were around, the shape of their hide was made from other animal skins for certain get together-s, and reunions of parts of tribes long separated.   

                      ted

                       

                      On Apr 6, 2013, at 8:51 AM, Jither wrote:

                       

                       

                       

                      Regarding elephants in Old America, at least in these (Vermont) environs:  either an elephant’s or a mamoth’s bones were found, I believe in Victorian times, near the RR tracks, in Charlotte, Vermont (just east of Lake Champlain);  age unknown.  Also, there are some curious place names: Elephant Valley/Elephant Hill, in So. Royalton, Vt (home of the Beehive Domes-   another mystery).

                       

                      It’s extremely interesting that any (wild) elephant would be sighted by anyone in historic times in No. America!  Would the temperatures/environment allow for that?  I don’t think so.  Could it possibly be a remnant of a type of elephant that ‘evolved’ over here, to live in what must, for it, have been an impossible climate, and then died out?  If so, there must be remains that could be dated, all over the place!

                       

                      And then there are the remains of the tropical/palm forests that have been dug up in Alaska.  Hmmmm. 

                       

                      -Jither (in Vermont, USA)

                       

                       

                      Error! Filename not specified.

                       

                    • Ted Sojka
                      They are referring to Mammoths and Mastodons in most cases in pre history. One entire group of skeletons is being excavated in Iowa in recent years that was
                      Message 11 of 12 , Apr 8 7:21 AM
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                        They are referring to Mammoths and Mastodons in most cases in pre history.  One entire group of skeletons is being excavated in Iowa in recent years that was found in the banks of a stream.  One famous finds was found in the banks of the Kickappoo River in Wisconsin and is now a display at the University of Wisconsin in Madison. 

                        Vince Barrow shared a newspaper article of a mammoth bone in Florida near Vero Beach. It had a drawing of a mammoth etched in the bone when it was fresh.  

                        Names have been given to hills and rocks that resemble other things in many places.  

                        PS The pigmy mammoth was also found on Wrangle Island north of Siberia.  Reports say that as the population of them grew, their size was reduced to lack of food.  The large ones died out and the small survived.  National Geographic has some stories on these animals including the ones found in the channel islands along with tools of those who hunted them.   

                        Be well all
                        ted
                        On Apr 8, 2013, at 8:52 AM, Jither wrote:

                         

                        Thank you!!!!  Never heard of these pygmy elephants!   I read the Wiki article on them.  Seems these California Channel Island pygmy elephants were still living around 10,000 to 11,000 years ago-  indeed, prehistoric.  But historically, could some type of elephant or mammoth been alive in No. America?  That is, even pre-Columbus?  There were northern traders (mainly French) and fishermen (Eng/Irish/Norse) for many years before Columbus came over, in the St Lawrence watershed area, and continuing down the coast of New England;  the Grand Banks, for example, was fished for cod long before Columbus.  So, maybe these European folk sighted elephants?   I still don’t think so, just because the climate would not allow. 

                         

                        Your thoughts?

                         

                         

                        From: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of C TRAYLOR
                        Sent: Sunday, April 07, 2013 9:21 PM
                        To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: elephants

                         

                         



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                      • Susan
                        Welcome to the new members. What I find most intriguing after reading several articles on the dwarf elephant or mammoth in and around the Channel Islands is
                        Message 12 of 12 , Apr 8 11:29 AM
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                          Welcome to the new members.

                          What I find most intriguing after reading several articles on the  dwarf elephant or mammoth in and around the Channel Islands is the possibility of its existance 20,000-47,000 + years ago and it alleged abilities as a distance swimmer.  One such article below.  Good comments, and thanks for beinging up this subject again.

                          http://www.mednscience.org/sites/default/files/products/Agenbroad_Mammoths_Humans_0.pdf

                          I like to search the Ancient Waterways archives here as know many members  have taken time to post  thoughtful comments and brought forward previous research subjects as this.  Just under "elephant" alone, for example ---not even including "mastadon" or "mammoth" --- are  thirty-nine posts from this group dating  back to 2007:

                          http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ancient_waterways_society/msearch?query=Elephants&pos=30&cnt=10

                          Susan

                          --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, C TRAYLOR <trayloroo@...> wrote:
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