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Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Vermont "bee-hive dwellings"

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  • ZHstar@...
    Good Luck ! If you find him I sure would like to talk to him about a field trip he did with Barry Fell . ZH In a message dated 2/24/2013 6:42:02 P.M.
    Message 1 of 16 , Feb 24, 2013
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      Good Luck !     If you find him I sure would like to talk to him about a field trip he did with Barry Fell . ZH
       
      In a message dated 2/24/2013 6:42:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jither@... writes:
       

      Thanks.  Last I knew there was a John Williams teaching (Stanford?), but it might not be the one.  IF it was, he’s retired by now.  I wonder if the original publisher might know?

      I have a few friends out in NM- but they probably don’t know Mr. Williams. Still, could check under that name via the Net, in NM.  Might be worth a shot.  I, too, would love to chat with him!

      From: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ZHstar@...
      Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2013 2:29 PM
      To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Vermont "bee-hive dwellings"

       

      Hi-  John Williams has disappeared.   I sure would like to talk to him.  The last I heard he moved to New Mexico and that's a few years  ago.    don't know  @ beehive chambers. ZH

      In a message dated 2/24/2013 8:13:00 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jither@... writes:

       

      Hi, and thanks again.

      Do you know anything  morel about the so-called “bee-hive dwellings” in Vermont?  As well, do you know anything about the John Williams who was Barry Fell’s field guide (at least, in Vermont)?  It is a common enough name that it gives me trouble trying to trace him.

       Agree with you regarding age/function being in the eye/mind of the beholder.

      From: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave Goudsward
      Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2013 10:02 PM
      To: ancient_ waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Vermont "bee-hive dwellings"

       


      I'm a firm believer in allowing everyone to have their opinion, regardless of how much (or little) I agree with that opinion. In this case, I see no reason why the chambers Neudorfer identifies as Type A can't be presumed colonial until proven otherwise. 

      I see the same sort of thing in Westford, where a researcher found a shallow cellar hole surrounded by alow stone wall. This he concluded m ust be Henry Sinclair's winter quarters. This was in spite of the fact the structure was in the old barnyard of a colonial farmstead, used English measurements, had a dried up stream in the middle of it. This by the way, is the exact description of a milk house left to ruin after the stream dried up.

      Alternatively, back in 1934, the Haverhill Evening Gazette ran a follow-up article where a a member of the Pattee family unequivocally stated her grandfather built the structures of the Mystery Hill site. She incorrectly identified the country of origin for her family, missed the family's date of immigration by a century and based upon her timeline, her grandfather would have built the structures a decade or more after her great-grandfather was already living in a house he had built on top of several of the structures.

      My point? Identification as Colonial or pre-Columbian is only as good as the researcher doing the work.  V ermont's Stone Chambers, regardless of the conclusions, is an excellent place to start research. I, for instance, would probably start with any given chamber and trace the land deeds  back to the pre-Vermont grants in NH or MA records. In a perfect world, a deed would mention the stone chamber.  However, more likely you end up with a chain of ownership that can be compared to tax records and wills to compare function and inventory. My interpretation of a chamber is going to be affected by its proximity to an apple orchard, compared to a grist mill operator.


      --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Jither" <jither@...> wrote:
      &g t;
      > Hi, Dave. Thank you for your email!
      >
      >
      >
      > Giovanna Peebles Neudorfer is very fixed in her ideas and could use a
      > massive dose of tolerance of new ideas and politeness to people with whom
      > she disagrees. I've been to Calendar II severa l times over the years: it
      > is NOT part of any stone wall! I'm curious: did she work on this survey as
      > a bureaucrat employee, then sell the info in book form? Hmmmm. Doesn't
      > sound quite right to me.
      >
      >
      >
      > But, in the spirit of honest investigation, I will track down that book.
      >
      >
      >
      > Thank you again! You gave me much food for thought.
      >
      >
      >
      > -Jither
      >
      > In Brrrmont
      >
      >
      >

    • Jither
      Will do. Bye. From: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ZHstar@aol.com Sent: Sunday,
      Message 2 of 16 , Feb 25, 2013
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        Will do.     Bye.

         

         

        From: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ZHstar@...
        Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2013 8:21 PM
        To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Vermont "bee-hive dwellings"

         

         

        Good Luck !     If you find him I sure would like to talk to him about a field trip he did with Barry Fell . ZH

         

        In a message dated 2/24/2013 6:42:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jither@... writes:

         

        Thanks.  Last I knew there was a John Williams teaching (Stanford?), but it might not be the one.  IF it was, he’s retired by now.  I wonder if the original publisher might know?

        I have a few friends out in NM- but they probably don’t know Mr. Williams. Still, could check under that name via the Net, in NM.  Might be worth a shot.  I, too, would love to chat with him!

        From: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ZHstar@...
        Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2013 2:29 PM
        To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Vermont "bee-hive dwellings"

         

        Hi-  John Williams has disappeared.   I sure would like to talk to him.  The last I heard he moved to New Mexico and that's a few years  ago.    don't know  @ beehive chambers. ZH

        In a message dated 2/24/2013 8:13:00 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jither@... writes:

         

        Hi, and thanks again.

        Do you know anything  morel about the so-called “bee-hive dwellings” in Vermont?  As well, do you know anything about the John Williams who was Barry Fell’s field guide (at least, in Vermont)?  It is a common enough name that it gives me trouble trying to trace him.

         Agree with you regarding age/function being in the eye/mind of the beholder.

        From: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave Goudsward
        Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2013 10:02 PM
        To: ancient_ waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Vermont "bee-hive dwellings"

         


        I'm a firm believer in allowing everyone to have their opinion, regardless of how much (or little) I agree with that opinion. In this case, I see no reason why the chambers Neudorfer identifies as Type A can't be presumed colonial until proven otherwise. 

        I see the same sort of thing in Westford, where a researcher found a shallow cellar hole surrounded by alow stone wall. This he concluded m ust be Henry Sinclair's winter quarters. This was in spite of the fact the structure was in the old barnyard of a colonial farmstead, used English measurements, had a dried up stream in the middle of it. This by the way, is the exact description of a milk house left to ruin after the stream dried up.

        Alternatively, back in 1934, the Haverhill Evening Gazette ran a follow-up article where a a member of the Pattee family unequivocally stated her grandfather built the structures of the Mystery Hill site. She incorrectly identified the country of origin for her family, missed the family's date of immigration by a century and based upon her timeline, her grandfather would have built the structures a decade or more after her great-grandfather was already living in a house he had built on top of several of the structures.

        My point? Identification as Colonial or pre-Columbian is only as good as the researcher doing the work.  V ermont's Stone Chambers, regardless of the conclusions, is an excellent place to start research. I, for instance, would probably start with any given chamber and trace the land deeds  back to the pre-Vermont grants in NH or MA records. In a perfect world, a deed would mention the stone chamber.  However, more likely you end up with a chain of ownership that can be compared to tax records and wills to compare function and inventory. My interpretation of a chamber is going to be affected by its proximity to an apple orchard, compared to a grist mill operator.


        --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Jither" <jither@...> wrote:
        &g t;
        > Hi, Dave. Thank you for your email!
        >
        >
        >
        > Giovanna Peebles Neudorfer is very fixed in her ideas and could use a
        > massive dose of tolerance of new ideas and politeness to people with whom
        > she disagrees. I've been to Calendar II severa l times over the years: it
        > is NOT part of any stone wall! I'm curious: did she work on this survey as
        > a bureaucrat employee, then sell the info in book form? Hmmmm. Doesn't
        > sound quite right to me.
        >
        >
        >
        > But, in the spirit of honest investigation, I will track down that book.
        >
        >
        >
        > Thank you again! You gave me much food for thought.
        >
        >
        >
        > -Jither
        >
        > In Brrrmont
        >
        >
        >

      • Susan
        I ve not seen a Post at Ancient Waterways Society from member Brad Olsen of California, but this link shoukd take you to one of his books, Sacred Dites North
        Message 3 of 16 , Feb 25, 2013
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          I've not seen a Post at Ancient Waterways Society from member Brad Olsen of California, but this link shoukd take you to one of his books, Sacred Dites North America anda age listing 41 beehive cairns orcstructures in Vemont.  I believe the email address Brad signed up at AWS has changed. 

          http://books.google.com/books?id=l4hTCuby90IC&pg=PA321&lpg=PA321&dq=beehive+dwellings+vermont&source=bl&ots=QWk8R6FIs6&sig=mHhcsMr9muwcp9EyxHByXXB2NMA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=nu0rUcmCBOyQyQHzvoHwBQ&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=beehive%20dwellings%20vermont&f=false




          --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Jither" <jither@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi, and thanks again.
          >
          > Do you know anything morel about the so-called "bee-hive dwellings" in
          > Vermont? As well, do you know anything about the John Williams who was
          > Barry Fell's field guide (at least, in Vermont)? It is a common enough name
          > that it gives me trouble trying to trace him.
          >
          > Agree with you regarding age/function being in the eye/mind of the
          > beholder.
          >
          > From: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
          > [mailto:ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave
          > Goudsward
          > Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2013 10:02 PM
          > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Vermont "bee-hive dwellings"
          >
          >
          > I'm a firm believer in allowing everyone to have their opinion, regardless
          > of how much (or little) I agree with that opinion. In this case, I see no
          > reason why the chambers Neudorfer identifies as Type A can't be presumed
          > colonial until proven otherwise.
          >
          > I see the same sort of thing in Westford, where a researcher found a shallow
          > cellar hole surrounded by alow stone wall. This he concluded must be Henry
          > Sinclair's winter quarters. This was in spite of the fact the structure was
          > in the old barnyard of a colonial farmstead, used English measurements, had
          > a dried up stream in the middle of it. This by the way, is the exact
          > description of a milk house left to ruin after the stream dried up.
          >
          > Alternatively, back in 1934, the Haverhill Evening Gazette ran a follow-up
          > article where a a member of the Pattee family unequivocally stated her
          > grandfather built the structures of the Mystery Hill site. She incorrectly
          > identified the country of origin for her family, missed the family's date of
          > immigration by a century and based upon her timeline, her grandfather would
          > have built the structures a decade or more after her great-grandfather was
          > already living in a house he had built on top of several of the structures.
          >
          > My point? Identification as Colonial or pre-Columbian is only as good as the
          > researcher doing the work. Vermont's Stone Chambers, regardless of the
          > conclusions, is an excellent place to start research. I, for instance, would
          > probably start with any given chamber and trace the land deeds back to the
          > pre-Vermont grants in NH or MA records. In a perfect world, a deed would
          > mention the stone chamber. However, more likely you end up with a chain of
          > ownership that can be compared to tax records and wills to compare function
          > and inventory. My interpretation of a chamber is going to be affected by its
          > proximity to an apple orchard, compared to a grist mill operator.
          >
          >
          > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Jither" jither@
          > wrote:
          > &g t;
          > > Hi, Dave. Thank you for your email!
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Giovanna Peebles Neudorfer is very fixed in her ideas and could use a
          > > massive dose of tolerance of new ideas and politeness to people with whom
          > > she disagrees. I've been to Calendar II several times over the years: it
          > > is NOT part of any stone wall! I'm curious: did she work on this survey as
          > > a bureaucrat employee, then sell the info in book form? Hmmmm. Doesn't
          > > sound quite right to me.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > But, in the spirit of honest investigation, I will track down that book.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Thank you again! You gave me much food for thought.
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > -Jither
          > >
          > > In Brrrmont
          > >
          > >
          > >
          >
        • Jither
          Thank you, Susan. Very kind of you. Wonderful. -Jither From: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com] On
          Message 4 of 16 , Feb 25, 2013
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            Thank you, Susan.  Very kind of you.  Wonderful.

             

            -Jither

             

             

            From: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Susan
            Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 6:10 PM
            To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Vermont "bee-hive dwellings"

             

             

            I've not seen a Post at Ancient Waterways Society from member Brad Olsen of California, but this link shoukd take you to one of his books, Sacred Dites North America anda age listing 41 beehive cairns orcstructures in Vemont.  I believe the email address Brad signed up at AWS has changed. 


            http://books.google.com/books?id=l4hTCuby90IC&pg=PA321&lpg=PA321&dq=beehive+dwellings+vermont&source=bl&ots=QWk8R6FIs6&sig=mHhcsMr9muwcp9EyxHByXXB2NMA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=nu0rUcmCBOyQyQHzvoHwBQ&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=beehive%20dwellings%20vermont&f=false

             

             


            --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Jither" <jither@...> wrote:
            >
            > Hi, and thanks again.
            >
            > Do you know anything morel about the so-called "bee-hive dwellings" in
            > Vermont? As well, do you know anything about the John Williams who was
            > Barry Fell's field guide (at least, in Vermont)? It is a common enough name
            > that it gives me trouble trying to trace him.
            >
            > Agree with you regarding age/function being in the eye/mind of the
            > beholder.
            >
            > From: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
            > [mailto:ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave
            > Goudsward
            > Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2013 10:02 PM
            > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Vermont "bee-hive dwellings"
            >
            >
            > I'm a firm believer in allowing everyone to have their opinion, regardless
            > of how much (or little) I agree with that opinion. In this case, I see no
            > reason why the chambers Neudorfer identifies as Type A can't be presumed
            > colonial until proven otherwise.
            >
            > I see the same sort of thing in Westford, where a researcher found a shall ow
            > cellar hole surrounded by alow stone wall. This he concluded must be Henry
            > Sinclair's winter quarters. This was in spite of the fact the structure was
            > in the old barnyard of a colonial farmstead, used English measurements, had
            > a dried up stream in the middle of it. This by the way, is the exact
            > description of a milk house left to ruin after the stream dried up.
            >
            > Alternatively, back in 1934, the Haverhill Evening Gazette ran a follow-up
            > article where a a member of the Pattee family unequivocally stated her
            > grandfather built the structures of the Mystery Hill site. She incorrectly
            > identified the country of origin for her family, missed the family's date of
            > immigration by a century and based upon her timeline, her grandfather would
            > have built the structures a decade or more after her great-grandfather was
            > already living in a house he had built on top of several of the structures.
            >
            > My point? Identification as Colonial or pre-Columbian is only as good as the
            > researcher doing the work. Vermont's Stone Chambers, regardless of the
            > conclusions, is an excellent place to start research. I, for instance, would
            > probably start with any given chamber and trace the land deeds back to the
            > pre-Vermont grants in NH or MA records. In a perfect world, a deed would
            > mention the stone chamber. However, more likely you end up with a chain of
            > ownership that can be compared to tax records and wills to compare function
            > and inventory. My interpretation of a chamber is going to be affected by its
            > proximity to an apple orchard, compared to a grist mill operator.
            >
            >
            > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Jither" jither@
            > wrote:
            > &g t;
            > > Hi, Dave. Thank you for your email!
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Giovanna Peebles Neudorfer is very fixed in her ideas and could use a
            > > massive dose of tolerance of new ideas and politeness to people with whom
            > > she disagrees. I've been to Calendar II several times over the years: it
            > > is NOT part of any stone wall! I'm curious: did she work on this survey as
            > > a bureaucrat employee, then sell the info in book form? Hmmmm. Doesn't
            > > sound quite right to me.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > But, in the spirit of honest investigation, I will track down that book.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Thank you again! You gave me much food for thought.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > -Jither
            > >
            > > In Brrrmont
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >

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