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Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Vermont "bee-hive dwellings"

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  • ZHstar@...
    Hi- Check out Donna Martin- a NEARA member who wrote a book with Warren Dexter on ancient Vermont. Also check out the Vermont chapter of NEARA, ZH In a
    Message 1 of 16 , Feb 23, 2013
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      Hi- Check out Donna Martin- a NEARA member  who wrote a book with Warren Dexter on ancient Vermont.  Also check out  the Vermont chapter of NEARA,  ZH
       
      In a message dated 2/23/2013 12:44:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jither@... writes:
       

      Hi, all-

      I'm in Vermont and was a member of NEARA (New England Antiquities Research Assoc'n) and no one in that group has any knowledge of these structures.

      In my old Atlas of Vermont there is a note about "bee hive dwellings" of unknown age, made of stone. There is a pointer to a general area, nothing precise. I imagine them to be similar to the "oratory" style in Western Ireland, and am in contact with an archaeolgical society there, also.

      According to an old government report out of Boston (it was online), traveling on the nearby river, you could see these structures; I contacted the author of the report, who claims no knowledge whatsoever, witch I thought rather disenguous for a public employee ... He directed me to the Vt Museum, in Montpelier. But I decline.

      Does anyone know anything about these stone structures???? I cannot see them from aerial photos!

      Please help. The town officers also know nothing!

      Thank you,
      Jither
      PS: These structures look to be within 1 mile of "Calendar I".

    • Larry Hancock
      Twenty or so years ago I went looking for these bee-hive: chambers. I talked to several people in the area including one man born and raised on that hill who
      Message 2 of 16 , Feb 23, 2013
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        Twenty or so years ago I went looking for these "bee-hive:' chambers. I talked to several people in the area including one man born and raised on that hill who had hunted every inch of that area--man and boy--and had never seen anything of that description.

        --- On Sat, 2/23/13, ZHstar@... <ZHstar@...> wrote:

        From: ZHstar@... <ZHstar@...>
        Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Vermont "bee-hive dwellings"
        To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Saturday, February 23, 2013, 12:56 PM

         

        Hi- Check out Donna Martin- a NEARA member  who wrote a book with Warren Dexter on ancient Vermont.  Also check out  the Vermont chapter of NEARA,  ZH
         
        In a message dated 2/23/2013 12:44:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jither@... writes:
         

        Hi, all-

        I'm in Vermont and was a member of NEARA (New England Antiquities Research Assoc'n) and no one in that group has any knowledge of these structures.

        In my old Atlas of Vermont there is a note about "bee hive dwellings" of unknown age, made of stone. There is a pointer to a general area, nothing precise. I imagine them to be similar to the "oratory" style in Western Ireland, and am in contact with an archaeolgical society there, also.

        According to an old government report out of Boston (it was online), traveling on the nearby river, you could see these structures; I contacted the author of the report, who claims no knowledge whatsoever, witch I thought rather disenguous for a public employee ... He directed me to the Vt Museum, in Montpelier. But I decline.

        Does anyone know anything about these stone structures???? I cannot see them from aerial photos!

        Please help. The town officers also know nothing!

        Thank you,
        Jither
        PS: These structures look to be within 1 mile of "Calendar I".

      • ZHstar@...
        Dear Larry- Thankyou. ZH In a message dated 2/23/2013 1:06:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, hancocklarry40@yahoo.com writes: Twenty or so years ago I went
        Message 3 of 16 , Feb 23, 2013
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          Dear Larry-  Thankyou. ZH
           
          In a message dated 2/23/2013 1:06:01 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, hancocklarry40@... writes:
           

          Twenty or so years ago I went looking for these "bee-hive:' chambers. I talked to several people in the area including one man born and raised on that hill who had hunted every inch of that area--man and boy--and had never seen anything of that description.

          --- On Sat, 2/23/13, ZHstar@... <ZHstar@...> wrote:

          From: ZHstar@... <ZHstar@...>
          Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Vermont "bee-hive dwellings"
          To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Saturday, February 23, 2013, 12:56 PM

           

          Hi- Check out Donna Martin- a NEARA member  who wrote a book with Warren Dexter on ancient Vermont.  Also check out  the Vermont chapter of NEARA,  ZH
           
          In a message dated 2/23/2013 12:44:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jither@... writes:
           

          Hi, all-

          I'm in Vermont and was a member of NEARA (New England Antiquities Research Assoc'n) and no one in that group has any knowledge of these structures.

          In my old Atlas of Vermont there is a note about "bee hive dwellings" of unknown age, made of stone. There is a pointer to a general area, nothing precise. I imagine them to be similar to the "oratory" style in Western Ireland, and am in contact with an archaeolgical society there, also.

          According to an old government report out of Boston (it was online), traveling on the nearby river, you could see these structures; I contacted the author of the report, who claims no knowledge whatsoever, witch I thought rather disenguous for a public employee ... He directed me to the Vt Museum, in Montpelier. But I decline.

          Does anyone know anything about these stone structures???? I cannot see them from aerial photos!

          Please help. The town officers also know nothing!

          Thank you,
          Jither
          PS: These structures look to be within 1 mile of "Calendar I".

        • Jither
          Hi. Yes, I need to see if Donna is still around. I read her co-authored work (w/ Dexter) but there was nothing re bee-hive structures. It’s an old book,
          Message 4 of 16 , Feb 23, 2013
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            Hi.   Yes, I need to see if Donna is still around.  I read her co-authored work (w/ Dexter) but there was nothing re bee-hive structures.  It’s an old book, tho.  I’ve been in touch with Vermont members of NEARA, also, but no one has any info.

            Thanks for the ideas, tho.

             

             

            From: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ZHstar@...
            Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2013 12:56 PM
            To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Vermont "bee-hive dwellings"

             

             

            Hi- Check out Donna Martin- a NEARA member  who wrote a book with Warren Dexter on ancient Vermont.  Also check out  the Vermont chapter of NEARA,  ZH

             

            In a message dated 2/23/2013 12:44:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jither@... writes:

             

            Hi, all-

            I'm in Vermont and was a member of NEARA (New England Antiquities Research Assoc'n) and no one in that group has any knowledge of these structures.

            In my old Atlas of Vermont there is a note about "bee hive dwellings" of unknown age, made of stone. There is a pointer to a general area, nothing precise. I imagine them to be similar to the "oratory" style in Western Ireland, and am in contact with an archaeolgical society there, also.

            According to an old government report out of Boston (it was online), traveling on the nearby river, you could see these structures; I contacted the author of the report, who claims no knowledge whatsoever, witch I thought rather disenguous for a public employee ... He directed me to the Vt Museum, in Montpelier. But I decline.

            Does anyone know anything about these stone structures???? I cannot see them from aerial photos!

            Please help. The town officers also know nothing!

            Thank you,
            Jither
            PS: These structures look to be within 1 mile of "Calendar I".

          • Jither
            Hi, and thanks. It’s a real mystery! Maybe I should contact Brad Melzer? No, that would blow open a huge hole for an influx of ‘seekers’ into my tiny,
            Message 5 of 16 , Feb 23, 2013
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              Hi, and thanks.  It’s a real mystery!  Maybe I should contact Brad Melzer?  No, that would blow open a huge hole for an influx of ‘seekers’ into my tiny, quiet state.

               

              If you don’t mind telling me:  where did you read/hear about these chambers?  I know the hill, but only from the map.  I’ve talked to a man who grew up just across the river and who hunted all over the area, and he didn’t know anything, either.

               

              Thank you.

              PS:  I’m talking Gee Hill.  Are you?

               

               

               

              From: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Larry Hancock
              Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2013 1:06 PM
              To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Vermont "bee-hive dwellings"

               

               

              Twenty or so years ago I went looking for these "bee-hive:' chambers. I talked to several people in the area including one man born and raised on that hill who had hunted every inch of that area--man and boy--and had never seen anything of that description.

              --- On Sat, 2/23/13, ZHstar@... <ZHstar@...> wrote:


              From: ZHstar@... <ZHstar@...>
              Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Vermont "bee-hive dwellings"
              To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Saturday, February 23, 2013, 12:56 PM

               

              Hi- Check out Donna Martin- a NEARA member  who wrote a book with Warren Dexter on ancient Vermont.  Also check out  the Vermont chapter of NEARA,  ZH

               

              In a message dated 2/23/2013 12:44:00 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jither@... writes:

               

              Hi, all-

              I'm in Vermont and was a member of NEARA (New England Antiquities Research Assoc'n) and no one in that group has any knowledge of these structures.

              In my old Atlas of Vermont there is a note about "bee hive dwellings" of unknown age, made of stone. There is a pointer to a general area, nothing precise. I imagine them to be similar to the "oratory" style in Western Ireland, and am in contact with an archaeolgical society there, also.

              According to an old government report out of Boston (it was online), traveling on the nearby river, you could see these structures; I contacted the author of the report, who claims no knowledge whatsoever, witch I thought rather disenguous for a public employee ... He directed me to the Vt Museum, in Montpelier. But I decline.

              Does anyone know anything about these stone structures???? I cannot see them from aerial photos!

              Please help. The town officers also know nothing!

              Thank you,
              Jither
              PS: These structures look to be within 1 mile of "Calendar I".

            • Dave Goudsward
              You may also want to track down a copy of Vermont s Stone Chambers by Vermont State Archaeologist Giovanna Neudorfer. Not surprisingly, Neudorfer interprets
              Message 6 of 16 , Feb 23, 2013
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                You may also want to track down a copy of Vermont's Stone Chambers by Vermont State Archaeologist Giovanna Neudorfer.

                Not surprisingly, Neudorfer interprets the chambers as unquestionably colonial in origin. In spite of this I recommend the book for the comparative tables of topology, lgeology and measurements.

                After Barry Fell's book hit the NYT bestseller list, there was so much trespassing, theft and vandalism  that Neudorfer and the Vermont Division for Historic Preservation began a study of the chambers that was released as the 1980 book.  According to her survey, there were fifty-two stone chambers located in twenty-one towns across five counties in the state.

                Neudorfer noted the cultural context of some of the structures included proximity to cellar holes and cisterns.  and divided sites into two categories: Type A and Type B.  Neudorfer identified fourteen chambers as Type A, identified by the structure's integration into the stonework of an existing structure or foundation hole, or its location as part of another structure or cellar hole.

                The Type B chambers are built into hillsides or freestanding structure that may or may not be covered with earth. This, from the perspective of the study, merely indicated they were no longer associated with a structure that would identify original use, not that they were pre-colonial. 

                Neudorfer notes that ten of the Type B chambers exhibited vent holes comparable to those described in documented root cellars and that the vent in the Calendar II chamber, which Dix had initially suggested as evidence of the European "megalithic yard" in use at the Vermont sites, was the same dimensions of root cellar vents recommended in an 1825 issue of New England Farmer and Horticultural Journal.  Calendar II was  therefore classified as Type A by Neudorfer based on being within a stone wall enclosure which  is located near cellar holes and a colonial cistern.

                I don't necessarily agree with her findings, but Giovanna Neudorfer's work raises some serious questions but her issues have not been addressed by other authors on ths topic.  Her name doesn't appear in any of Fell's books. Mavor and Dix do not mention the Neudorfer work either,  and Trento mentions Neudorfer's report (but not her name) in passing in his 1997 book.
              • Jither
                Hi, Dave. Thank you for your email! Giovanna Peebles Neudorfer is very fixed in her ideas and could use a massive dose of tolerance of new ideas and
                Message 7 of 16 , Feb 23, 2013
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                  Hi, Dave.  Thank you for your email!

                   

                  Giovanna Peebles Neudorfer is very fixed in her ideas and could use a massive dose of tolerance of new ideas and politeness to people with whom she disagrees.   I’ve been to Calendar II several times over the years: it is NOT part of any stone wall!  I’m curious:  did she work on this survey as a bureaucrat employee, then sell the info in book form?   Hmmmm.  Doesn’t sound quite right to me. 

                   

                  But, in the spirit of honest investigation, I will track down that book.

                   

                  Thank you again!   You gave me much food for thought.

                   

                  -Jither

                  In  Brrrmont

                   

                   

                  From: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave Goudsward
                  Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2013 4:54 PM
                  To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Vermont "bee-hive dwellings"

                   

                   

                  You may also want to track down a copy of Vermont's Stone Chambers by Vermont State Archaeologist Giovanna Neudorfer.

                  Not surprisingly, Neudorfer interprets the chambers as unquestionably colonial in origin. In spite of this I recommend the book for the comparative tables of topology, lgeology and measurements.

                  After Barry Fell's book hit the NYT bestseller list, there was so much trespassing, theft and vandalism  that Neudorfer and the Vermont Division for Historic Preservation began a study of the chambers that was released as the 1980 book.  According to her survey, there were fifty-two stone chambers located in twenty-one towns across five counties in the state.

                  Neudorfer noted the cultural context of some of the structures included proximity to cellar holes and cisterns.  and divided sites into two categories: Type A and Type B.  Neudorfer identified fourteen chambers as Type A, identified by the structure's integration into the stonework of an existing structure or foundation hole, or its location as part of another structure or cellar hole.

                  The Type B chambers are built into hillsides or freestanding structure that may or may not be covered with earth. This, from the perspective of the study, merely indicated they were no longer associated with a structure that would identify original use, not that they were pre-colonial. 

                  Neudorfer notes that ten of the Type B chambers exhibited vent holes comparable to those described in documented root cellars and that the vent in the Calendar II chamber, which Dix had initially suggested as evidence of the European "megalithic yard" in use at the Vermont sites, was the same dimensions of root cellar vents recommended in an 1825 issue of New England Farmer and Horticultural Journal.  Calendar II was  therefore classified as Type A by Neudorfer based on being within a stone wall enclosure which  is located near cellar holes and a colonial cistern.

                  I don't necessaril y agree with her findings, but Giovanna Neudorfer's work raises some serious questions but her issues have not been addressed by other authors on ths topic.  Her name doesn't appear in any of Fell's books. Mavor and Dix do not mention the Neudorfer work either,  and Trento mentions Neudorfer's report (but not her name) in passing in his 1997 book.

                • Dave Goudsward
                  I m a firm believer in allowing everyone to have their opinion, regardless of how much (or little) I agree with that opinion. In this case, I see no reason why
                  Message 8 of 16 , Feb 23, 2013
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                    I'm a firm believer in allowing everyone to have their opinion, regardless of how much (or little) I agree with that opinion. In this case, I see no reason why the chambers Neudorfer identifies as Type A can't be presumed colonial until proven otherwise. 

                    I see the same sort of thing in Westford, where a researcher found a shallow cellar hole surrounded by alow stone wall. This he concluded must be Henry Sinclair's winter quarters. This was in spite of the fact the structure was in the old barnyard of a colonial farmstead, used English measurements, had a dried up stream in the middle of it. This by the way, is the exact description of a milk house left to ruin after the stream dried up.

                    Alternatively, back in 1934, the Haverhill Evening Gazette ran a follow-up article where a a member of the Pattee family unequivocally stated her grandfather built the structures of the Mystery Hill site. She incorrectly identified the country of origin for her family, missed the family's date of immigration by a century and based upon her timeline, her grandfather would have built the structures a decade or more after her great-grandfather was already living in a house he had built on top of several of the structures.

                    My point? Identification as Colonial or pre-Columbian is only as good as the researcher doing the work.  Vermont's Stone Chambers, regardless of the conclusions, is an excellent place to start research. I, for instance, would probably start with any given chamber and trace the land deeds  back to the pre-Vermont grants in NH or MA records. In a perfect world, a deed would mention the stone chamber.  However, more likely you end up with a chain of ownership that can be compared to tax records and wills to compare function and inventory. My interpretation of a chamber is going to be affected by its proximity to an apple orchard, compared to a grist mill operator.


                    --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Jither" <jither@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi, Dave. Thank you for your email!
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Giovanna Peebles Neudorfer is very fixed in her ideas and could use a
                    > massive dose of tolerance of new ideas and politeness to people with whom
                    > she disagrees. I've been to Calendar II several times over the years: it
                    > is NOT part of any stone wall! I'm curious: did she work on this survey as
                    > a bureaucrat employee, then sell the info in book form? Hmmmm. Doesn't
                    > sound quite right to me.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > But, in the spirit of honest investigation, I will track down that book.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Thank you again! You gave me much food for thought.
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > -Jither
                    >
                    > In Brrrmont
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • Jither
                    Hi, and thanks again. Do you know anything morel about the so-called bee-hive dwellings in Vermont? As well, do you know anything about the John Williams
                    Message 9 of 16 , Feb 24, 2013
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                      Hi, and thanks again.

                       

                      Do you know anything  morel about the so-called “bee-hive dwellings” in Vermont?  As well, do you know anything about the John Williams who was Barry Fell’s field guide (at least, in Vermont)?  It is a common enough name that it gives me trouble trying to trace him.

                       Agree with you regarding age/function being in the eye/mind of the beholder.

                       

                       

                      From: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave Goudsward
                      Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2013 10:02 PM
                      To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Vermont "bee-hive dwellings"

                       

                       


                      I'm a firm believer in allowing everyone to have their opinion, regardless of how much (or little) I agree with that opinion. In this case, I see no reason why the chambers Neudorfer identifies as Type A can't be presumed colonial until proven otherwise. 

                      I see the same sort of thing in Westford, where a researcher found a shallow cellar hole surrounded by alow stone wall. This he concluded must be Henry Sinclair's winter quarters. This was in spite of the fact the structure was in the old barnyard of a colonial farmstead, used English measurements, had a dried up stream in the middle of it. This by the way, is the exact description of a milk house left to ruin after the stream dried up.

                      Alternatively, back in 1934, the Haverhill Evening Gazette ran a follow-up article where a a member of the Pattee family unequivocally stated her grandfather built the structures of the Mystery Hill site. She incorrectly identified the country of origin for her family, missed the family's date of immigration by a century and based upon her timeline, her grandfather would have built the structures a decade or more after her great-grandfather was already living in a house he had built on top of several of the structures.

                      My point? Identification as Colonial or pre-Columbian is only as good as the researcher doing the work.  Vermont's Stone Chambers, regardless of the conclusions, is an excellent place to start research. I, for instance, would probably start with any given chamber and trace the land deeds  back to the pre-Vermont grants in NH or MA records. In a perfect world, a deed would mention the stone chamber.  However, more likely you end up with a chain of ownership that can be compared to tax records and wills to compare function and inventory. My interpretation of a chamber is going to be affected by its proximity to an apple orchard, compared to a grist mill operator.


                      --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Jither" <jither@...> wrote:
                      &g t;
                      > Hi, Dave. Thank you for your email!
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Giovanna Peebles Neudorfer is very fixed in her ideas and could use a
                      > massive dose of tolerance of new ideas and politeness to people with whom
                      > she disagrees. I've been to Calendar II several times over the years: it
                      > is NOT part of any stone wall! I'm curious: did she work on this survey as
                      > a bureaucrat employee, then sell the info in book form? Hmmmm. Doesn't
                      > sound quite right to me.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > But, in the spirit of honest investigation, I will track down that book.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Thank you again! You gave me much food for thought.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > -Jither
                      >
                      > In Brrrmont
                      >
                      >
                      >

                    • ZHstar@...
                      Hi- John Williams has disappeared. I sure would like to talk to him. The last I heard he moved to New Mexico and that s a few years ago. don t know @
                      Message 10 of 16 , Feb 24, 2013
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                        Hi-  John Williams has disappeared.   I sure would like to talk to him.  The last I heard he moved to New Mexico and that's a few years  ago.    don't know  @ beehive chambers. ZH
                         
                        In a message dated 2/24/2013 8:13:00 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jither@... writes:
                         

                        Hi, and thanks again.

                        Do you know anything  morel about the so-called “bee-hive dwellings” in Vermont?  As well, do you know anything about the John Williams who was Barry Fell’s field guide (at least, in Vermont)?  It is a common enough name that it gives me trouble trying to trace him.

                         Agree with you regarding age/function being in the eye/mind of the beholder.

                        From: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave Goudsward
                        Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2013 10:02 PM
                        To: ancient_ waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Vermont "bee-hive dwellings"

                         


                        I'm a firm believer in allowing everyone to have their opinion, regardless of how much (or little) I agree with that opinion. In this case, I see no reason why the chambers Neudorfer identifies as Type A can't be presumed colonial until proven otherwise. 

                        I see the same sort of thing in Westford, where a researcher found a shallow cellar hole surrounded by alow stone wall. This he concluded m ust be Henry Sinclair's winter quarters. This was in spite of the fact the structure was in the old barnyard of a colonial farmstead, used English measurements, had a dried up stream in the middle of it. This by the way, is the exact description of a milk house left to ruin after the stream dried up.

                        Alternatively, back in 1934, the Haverhill Evening Gazette ran a follow-up article where a a member of the Pattee family unequivocally stated her grandfather built the structures of the Mystery Hill site. She incorrectly identified the country of origin for her family, missed the family's date of immigration by a century and based upon her timeline, her grandfather would have built the structures a decade or more after her great-grandfather was already living in a house he had built on top of several of the structures.

                        My point? Identification as Colonial or pre-Columbian is only as good as the researcher doing the work.  V ermont's Stone Chambers, regardless of the conclusions, is an excellent place to start research. I, for instance, would probably start with any given chamber and trace the land deeds  back to the pre-Vermont grants in NH or MA records. In a perfect world, a deed would mention the stone chamber.  However, more likely you end up with a chain of ownership that can be compared to tax records and wills to compare function and inventory. My interpretation of a chamber is going to be affected by its proximity to an apple orchard, compared to a grist mill operator.


                        --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Jither" <jither@...> wrote:
                        &g t;
                        > Hi, Dave. Thank you for your email!
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Giovanna Peebles Neudorfer is very fixed in her ideas and could use a
                        > massive dose of tolerance of new ideas and politeness to people with whom
                        > she disagrees. I've been to Calendar II severa l times over the years: it
                        > is NOT part of any stone wall! I'm curious: did she work on this survey as
                        > a bureaucrat employee, then sell the info in book form? Hmmmm. Doesn't
                        > sound quite right to me.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > But, in the spirit of honest investigation, I will track down that book.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Thank you again! You gave me much food for thought.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > -Jither
                        >
                        > In Brrrmont
                        >
                        >
                        >

                      • Jither
                        Thanks. Last I knew there was a John Williams teaching (Stanford?), but it might not be the one. IF it was, he’s retired by now. I wonder if the original
                        Message 11 of 16 , Feb 24, 2013
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                          Thanks.  Last I knew there was a John Williams teaching (Stanford?), but it might not be the one.  IF it was, he’s retired by now.  I wonder if the original publisher might know?

                           

                          I have a few friends out in NM- but they probably don’t know Mr. Williams. Still, could check under that name via the Net, in NM.  Might be worth a shot.  I, too, would love to chat with him!

                           

                           

                           

                          From: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ZHstar@...
                          Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2013 2:29 PM
                          To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Vermont "bee-hive dwellings"

                           

                           

                          Hi-  John Williams has disappeared.   I sure would like to talk to him.  The last I heard he moved to New Mexico and that's a few years  ago.    don't know  @ beehive chambers. ZH

                           

                          In a message dated 2/24/2013 8:13:00 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jither@... writes:

                           

                          Hi, and thanks again.

                          Do you know anything  morel about the so-called “bee-hive dwellings” in Vermont?  As well, do you know anything about the John Williams who was Barry Fell’s field guide (at least, in Vermont)?  It is a common enough name that it gives me trouble trying to trace him.

                           Agree with you regarding age/function being in the eye/mind of the beholder.

                          From: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave Goudsward
                          Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2013 10:02 PM
                          To: ancient_ waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Vermont "bee-hive dwellings"

                           


                          I'm a firm believer in allowing everyone to have their opinion, regardless of how much (or little) I agree with that opinion. In this case, I see no reason why the chambers Neudorfer identifies as Type A can't be presumed colonial until proven otherwise. 

                          I see the same sort of thing in Westford, where a researcher found a shallow cellar hole surrounded by alow stone wall. This he concluded m ust be Henry Sinclair's winter quarters. This was in spite of the fact the structure was in the old barnyard of a colonial farmstead, used English measurements, had a dried up stream in the middle of it. This by the way, is the exact description of a milk house left to ruin after the stream dried up.

                          Alternatively, back in 1934, the Haverhill Evening Gazette ran a follow-up article where a a member of the Pattee family unequivocally stated her grandfather built the structures of the Mystery Hill site. She incorrectly identified the country of origin for her family, missed the family's date of immigration by a century and based upon her timeline, her grandfather would have built the structures a decade or more after her great-grandfather was already living in a house he had built on top of several of the structures.

                          My point? Identification as Colonial or pre-Columbian is only as good as the researcher doing the work.  V ermont's Stone Chambers, regardless of the conclusions, is an excellent place to start research. I, for instance, would probably start with any given chamber and trace the land deeds  back to the pre-Vermont grants in NH or MA records. In a perfect world, a deed would mention the stone chamber.  However, more likely you end up with a chain of ownership that can be compared to tax records and wills to compare function and inventory. My interpretation of a chamber is going to be affected by its proximity to an apple orchard, compared to a grist mill operator.


                          --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Jither" <jither@...> wrote:
                          &g t;
                          > Hi, Dave. Thank you for your email!
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Giovanna Peebles Neudorfer is very fixed in her ideas and could use a
                          > massive dose of tolerance of new ideas and politeness to people with whom
                          > she disagrees. I've been to Calendar II severa l times over the years: it
                          > is NOT part of any stone wall! I'm curious: did she work on this survey as
                          > a bureaucrat employee, then sell the info in book form? Hmmmm. Doesn't
                          > sound quite right to me.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > But, in the spirit of honest investigation, I will track down that book.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Thank you again! You gave me much food for thought.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > -Jither
                          >
                          > In Brrrmont
                          >
                          >
                          >

                        • ZHstar@...
                          Good Luck ! If you find him I sure would like to talk to him about a field trip he did with Barry Fell . ZH In a message dated 2/24/2013 6:42:02 P.M.
                          Message 12 of 16 , Feb 24, 2013
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Good Luck !     If you find him I sure would like to talk to him about a field trip he did with Barry Fell . ZH
                             
                            In a message dated 2/24/2013 6:42:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jither@... writes:
                             

                            Thanks.  Last I knew there was a John Williams teaching (Stanford?), but it might not be the one.  IF it was, he’s retired by now.  I wonder if the original publisher might know?

                            I have a few friends out in NM- but they probably don’t know Mr. Williams. Still, could check under that name via the Net, in NM.  Might be worth a shot.  I, too, would love to chat with him!

                            From: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ZHstar@...
                            Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2013 2:29 PM
                            To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Vermont "bee-hive dwellings"

                             

                            Hi-  John Williams has disappeared.   I sure would like to talk to him.  The last I heard he moved to New Mexico and that's a few years  ago.    don't know  @ beehive chambers. ZH

                            In a message dated 2/24/2013 8:13:00 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jither@... writes:

                             

                            Hi, and thanks again.

                            Do you know anything  morel about the so-called “bee-hive dwellings” in Vermont?  As well, do you know anything about the John Williams who was Barry Fell’s field guide (at least, in Vermont)?  It is a common enough name that it gives me trouble trying to trace him.

                             Agree with you regarding age/function being in the eye/mind of the beholder.

                            From: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave Goudsward
                            Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2013 10:02 PM
                            To: ancient_ waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Vermont "bee-hive dwellings"

                             


                            I'm a firm believer in allowing everyone to have their opinion, regardless of how much (or little) I agree with that opinion. In this case, I see no reason why the chambers Neudorfer identifies as Type A can't be presumed colonial until proven otherwise. 

                            I see the same sort of thing in Westford, where a researcher found a shallow cellar hole surrounded by alow stone wall. This he concluded m ust be Henry Sinclair's winter quarters. This was in spite of the fact the structure was in the old barnyard of a colonial farmstead, used English measurements, had a dried up stream in the middle of it. This by the way, is the exact description of a milk house left to ruin after the stream dried up.

                            Alternatively, back in 1934, the Haverhill Evening Gazette ran a follow-up article where a a member of the Pattee family unequivocally stated her grandfather built the structures of the Mystery Hill site. She incorrectly identified the country of origin for her family, missed the family's date of immigration by a century and based upon her timeline, her grandfather would have built the structures a decade or more after her great-grandfather was already living in a house he had built on top of several of the structures.

                            My point? Identification as Colonial or pre-Columbian is only as good as the researcher doing the work.  V ermont's Stone Chambers, regardless of the conclusions, is an excellent place to start research. I, for instance, would probably start with any given chamber and trace the land deeds  back to the pre-Vermont grants in NH or MA records. In a perfect world, a deed would mention the stone chamber.  However, more likely you end up with a chain of ownership that can be compared to tax records and wills to compare function and inventory. My interpretation of a chamber is going to be affected by its proximity to an apple orchard, compared to a grist mill operator.


                            --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Jither" <jither@...> wrote:
                            &g t;
                            > Hi, Dave. Thank you for your email!
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Giovanna Peebles Neudorfer is very fixed in her ideas and could use a
                            > massive dose of tolerance of new ideas and politeness to people with whom
                            > she disagrees. I've been to Calendar II severa l times over the years: it
                            > is NOT part of any stone wall! I'm curious: did she work on this survey as
                            > a bureaucrat employee, then sell the info in book form? Hmmmm. Doesn't
                            > sound quite right to me.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > But, in the spirit of honest investigation, I will track down that book.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Thank you again! You gave me much food for thought.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > -Jither
                            >
                            > In Brrrmont
                            >
                            >
                            >

                          • Jither
                            Will do. Bye. From: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ZHstar@aol.com Sent: Sunday,
                            Message 13 of 16 , Feb 25, 2013
                            • 0 Attachment

                              Will do.     Bye.

                               

                               

                              From: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ZHstar@...
                              Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2013 8:21 PM
                              To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Vermont "bee-hive dwellings"

                               

                               

                              Good Luck !     If you find him I sure would like to talk to him about a field trip he did with Barry Fell . ZH

                               

                              In a message dated 2/24/2013 6:42:02 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, jither@... writes:

                               

                              Thanks.  Last I knew there was a John Williams teaching (Stanford?), but it might not be the one.  IF it was, he’s retired by now.  I wonder if the original publisher might know?

                              I have a few friends out in NM- but they probably don’t know Mr. Williams. Still, could check under that name via the Net, in NM.  Might be worth a shot.  I, too, would love to chat with him!

                              From: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of ZHstar@...
                              Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2013 2:29 PM
                              To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Vermont "bee-hive dwellings"

                               

                              Hi-  John Williams has disappeared.   I sure would like to talk to him.  The last I heard he moved to New Mexico and that's a few years  ago.    don't know  @ beehive chambers. ZH

                              In a message dated 2/24/2013 8:13:00 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, jither@... writes:

                               

                              Hi, and thanks again.

                              Do you know anything  morel about the so-called “bee-hive dwellings” in Vermont?  As well, do you know anything about the John Williams who was Barry Fell’s field guide (at least, in Vermont)?  It is a common enough name that it gives me trouble trying to trace him.

                               Agree with you regarding age/function being in the eye/mind of the beholder.

                              From: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave Goudsward
                              Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2013 10:02 PM
                              To: ancient_ waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Vermont "bee-hive dwellings"

                               


                              I'm a firm believer in allowing everyone to have their opinion, regardless of how much (or little) I agree with that opinion. In this case, I see no reason why the chambers Neudorfer identifies as Type A can't be presumed colonial until proven otherwise. 

                              I see the same sort of thing in Westford, where a researcher found a shallow cellar hole surrounded by alow stone wall. This he concluded m ust be Henry Sinclair's winter quarters. This was in spite of the fact the structure was in the old barnyard of a colonial farmstead, used English measurements, had a dried up stream in the middle of it. This by the way, is the exact description of a milk house left to ruin after the stream dried up.

                              Alternatively, back in 1934, the Haverhill Evening Gazette ran a follow-up article where a a member of the Pattee family unequivocally stated her grandfather built the structures of the Mystery Hill site. She incorrectly identified the country of origin for her family, missed the family's date of immigration by a century and based upon her timeline, her grandfather would have built the structures a decade or more after her great-grandfather was already living in a house he had built on top of several of the structures.

                              My point? Identification as Colonial or pre-Columbian is only as good as the researcher doing the work.  V ermont's Stone Chambers, regardless of the conclusions, is an excellent place to start research. I, for instance, would probably start with any given chamber and trace the land deeds  back to the pre-Vermont grants in NH or MA records. In a perfect world, a deed would mention the stone chamber.  However, more likely you end up with a chain of ownership that can be compared to tax records and wills to compare function and inventory. My interpretation of a chamber is going to be affected by its proximity to an apple orchard, compared to a grist mill operator.


                              --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Jither" <jither@...> wrote:
                              &g t;
                              > Hi, Dave. Thank you for your email!
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Giovanna Peebles Neudorfer is very fixed in her ideas and could use a
                              > massive dose of tolerance of new ideas and politeness to people with whom
                              > she disagrees. I've been to Calendar II severa l times over the years: it
                              > is NOT part of any stone wall! I'm curious: did she work on this survey as
                              > a bureaucrat employee, then sell the info in book form? Hmmmm. Doesn't
                              > sound quite right to me.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > But, in the spirit of honest investigation, I will track down that book.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Thank you again! You gave me much food for thought.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > -Jither
                              >
                              > In Brrrmont
                              >
                              >
                              >

                            • Susan
                              I ve not seen a Post at Ancient Waterways Society from member Brad Olsen of California, but this link shoukd take you to one of his books, Sacred Dites North
                              Message 14 of 16 , Feb 25, 2013
                              • 0 Attachment
                                I've not seen a Post at Ancient Waterways Society from member Brad Olsen of California, but this link shoukd take you to one of his books, Sacred Dites North America anda age listing 41 beehive cairns orcstructures in Vemont.  I believe the email address Brad signed up at AWS has changed. 

                                http://books.google.com/books?id=l4hTCuby90IC&pg=PA321&lpg=PA321&dq=beehive+dwellings+vermont&source=bl&ots=QWk8R6FIs6&sig=mHhcsMr9muwcp9EyxHByXXB2NMA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=nu0rUcmCBOyQyQHzvoHwBQ&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=beehive%20dwellings%20vermont&f=false




                                --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Jither" <jither@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Hi, and thanks again.
                                >
                                > Do you know anything morel about the so-called "bee-hive dwellings" in
                                > Vermont? As well, do you know anything about the John Williams who was
                                > Barry Fell's field guide (at least, in Vermont)? It is a common enough name
                                > that it gives me trouble trying to trace him.
                                >
                                > Agree with you regarding age/function being in the eye/mind of the
                                > beholder.
                                >
                                > From: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                                > [mailto:ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave
                                > Goudsward
                                > Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2013 10:02 PM
                                > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                                > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Vermont "bee-hive dwellings"
                                >
                                >
                                > I'm a firm believer in allowing everyone to have their opinion, regardless
                                > of how much (or little) I agree with that opinion. In this case, I see no
                                > reason why the chambers Neudorfer identifies as Type A can't be presumed
                                > colonial until proven otherwise.
                                >
                                > I see the same sort of thing in Westford, where a researcher found a shallow
                                > cellar hole surrounded by alow stone wall. This he concluded must be Henry
                                > Sinclair's winter quarters. This was in spite of the fact the structure was
                                > in the old barnyard of a colonial farmstead, used English measurements, had
                                > a dried up stream in the middle of it. This by the way, is the exact
                                > description of a milk house left to ruin after the stream dried up.
                                >
                                > Alternatively, back in 1934, the Haverhill Evening Gazette ran a follow-up
                                > article where a a member of the Pattee family unequivocally stated her
                                > grandfather built the structures of the Mystery Hill site. She incorrectly
                                > identified the country of origin for her family, missed the family's date of
                                > immigration by a century and based upon her timeline, her grandfather would
                                > have built the structures a decade or more after her great-grandfather was
                                > already living in a house he had built on top of several of the structures.
                                >
                                > My point? Identification as Colonial or pre-Columbian is only as good as the
                                > researcher doing the work. Vermont's Stone Chambers, regardless of the
                                > conclusions, is an excellent place to start research. I, for instance, would
                                > probably start with any given chamber and trace the land deeds back to the
                                > pre-Vermont grants in NH or MA records. In a perfect world, a deed would
                                > mention the stone chamber. However, more likely you end up with a chain of
                                > ownership that can be compared to tax records and wills to compare function
                                > and inventory. My interpretation of a chamber is going to be affected by its
                                > proximity to an apple orchard, compared to a grist mill operator.
                                >
                                >
                                > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Jither" jither@
                                > wrote:
                                > &g t;
                                > > Hi, Dave. Thank you for your email!
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Giovanna Peebles Neudorfer is very fixed in her ideas and could use a
                                > > massive dose of tolerance of new ideas and politeness to people with whom
                                > > she disagrees. I've been to Calendar II several times over the years: it
                                > > is NOT part of any stone wall! I'm curious: did she work on this survey as
                                > > a bureaucrat employee, then sell the info in book form? Hmmmm. Doesn't
                                > > sound quite right to me.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > But, in the spirit of honest investigation, I will track down that book.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > Thank you again! You gave me much food for thought.
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > -Jither
                                > >
                                > > In Brrrmont
                                > >
                                > >
                                > >
                                >
                              • Jither
                                Thank you, Susan. Very kind of you. Wonderful. -Jither From: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com] On
                                Message 15 of 16 , Feb 25, 2013
                                • 0 Attachment

                                  Thank you, Susan.  Very kind of you.  Wonderful.

                                   

                                  -Jither

                                   

                                   

                                  From: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com [mailto:ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Susan
                                  Sent: Monday, February 25, 2013 6:10 PM
                                  To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                                  Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Vermont "bee-hive dwellings"

                                   

                                   

                                  I've not seen a Post at Ancient Waterways Society from member Brad Olsen of California, but this link shoukd take you to one of his books, Sacred Dites North America anda age listing 41 beehive cairns orcstructures in Vemont.  I believe the email address Brad signed up at AWS has changed. 


                                  http://books.google.com/books?id=l4hTCuby90IC&pg=PA321&lpg=PA321&dq=beehive+dwellings+vermont&source=bl&ots=QWk8R6FIs6&sig=mHhcsMr9muwcp9EyxHByXXB2NMA&hl=en&sa=X&ei=nu0rUcmCBOyQyQHzvoHwBQ&ved=0CDwQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=beehive%20dwellings%20vermont&f=false

                                   

                                   


                                  --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Jither" <jither@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hi, and thanks again.
                                  >
                                  > Do you know anything morel about the so-called "bee-hive dwellings" in
                                  > Vermont? As well, do you know anything about the John Williams who was
                                  > Barry Fell's field guide (at least, in Vermont)? It is a common enough name
                                  > that it gives me trouble trying to trace him.
                                  >
                                  > Agree with you regarding age/function being in the eye/mind of the
                                  > beholder.
                                  >
                                  > From: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                                  > [mailto:ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dave
                                  > Goudsward
                                  > Sent: Saturday, February 23, 2013 10:02 PM
                                  > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                                  > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Vermont "bee-hive dwellings"
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > I'm a firm believer in allowing everyone to have their opinion, regardless
                                  > of how much (or little) I agree with that opinion. In this case, I see no
                                  > reason why the chambers Neudorfer identifies as Type A can't be presumed
                                  > colonial until proven otherwise.
                                  >
                                  > I see the same sort of thing in Westford, where a researcher found a shall ow
                                  > cellar hole surrounded by alow stone wall. This he concluded must be Henry
                                  > Sinclair's winter quarters. This was in spite of the fact the structure was
                                  > in the old barnyard of a colonial farmstead, used English measurements, had
                                  > a dried up stream in the middle of it. This by the way, is the exact
                                  > description of a milk house left to ruin after the stream dried up.
                                  >
                                  > Alternatively, back in 1934, the Haverhill Evening Gazette ran a follow-up
                                  > article where a a member of the Pattee family unequivocally stated her
                                  > grandfather built the structures of the Mystery Hill site. She incorrectly
                                  > identified the country of origin for her family, missed the family's date of
                                  > immigration by a century and based upon her timeline, her grandfather would
                                  > have built the structures a decade or more after her great-grandfather was
                                  > already living in a house he had built on top of several of the structures.
                                  >
                                  > My point? Identification as Colonial or pre-Columbian is only as good as the
                                  > researcher doing the work. Vermont's Stone Chambers, regardless of the
                                  > conclusions, is an excellent place to start research. I, for instance, would
                                  > probably start with any given chamber and trace the land deeds back to the
                                  > pre-Vermont grants in NH or MA records. In a perfect world, a deed would
                                  > mention the stone chamber. However, more likely you end up with a chain of
                                  > ownership that can be compared to tax records and wills to compare function
                                  > and inventory. My interpretation of a chamber is going to be affected by its
                                  > proximity to an apple orchard, compared to a grist mill operator.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Jither" jither@
                                  > wrote:
                                  > &g t;
                                  > > Hi, Dave. Thank you for your email!
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Giovanna Peebles Neudorfer is very fixed in her ideas and could use a
                                  > > massive dose of tolerance of new ideas and politeness to people with whom
                                  > > she disagrees. I've been to Calendar II several times over the years: it
                                  > > is NOT part of any stone wall! I'm curious: did she work on this survey as
                                  > > a bureaucrat employee, then sell the info in book form? Hmmmm. Doesn't
                                  > > sound quite right to me.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > But, in the spirit of honest investigation, I will track down that book.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Thank you again! You gave me much food for thought.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > -Jither
                                  > >
                                  > > In Brrrmont
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  >

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