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Re: Stone Builders, Mound Builders & the Giants of Ancient America /Jim Vieira

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  • bigalemc2
    Gumbo mentioned the REAL hoax of 20th century anthropology/archeology. The Clovis Barrier was a far bigger a hoax than Piltdown man or archeoraptor. It set
    Message 1 of 10 , Dec 23, 2012
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      Gumbo mentioned the REAL hoax of 20th century anthropology/archeology.  The Clovis Barrier was a far bigger a hoax than Piltdown man or archeoraptor.  It set back both fields in the Americas by 70 years.  And there are still hard-headed academics who still argue its reality.

      Clovis even hurts those fields more than  seven decades, because they are still trying to fit older findings into a "Clovis was the MAIN incursion" meme, selling Clovis as still important.

      But Clovis DIED OUT along with mammoths, at the beginning of the Younger-Dryas Stadial at 12.9 kya, and humans were all but missing from North America for 1,200 years after that.  Thus, if ANY main incursion occurred it was more than a millennium after Clovis all died out.  They all need to get their stories straight.

      Steve Garcia




      --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Rick O" wrote:
      >
      > Good call, Steve! One exception: Piltdown man was a 20th century event
      > (that has never been radio carbon dated to actually determine by
      > scientific method whether it was a hoax- it was "assessed" as a hoax).
      > And, yes, showmanship or newspaper sales are both possible motivations
      > in at least some of the accounts. However, many accounts, including the
      > one I investigated thoroughly, include the names of the discovers. In
      > the local case, I was able to verify that two of the folks named were
      > real and contemporary to the news item. One was the acting Justice of
      > the Peace at the time.
      > http://youtu.be/o-JFrKsasUU
      >
      > For a video account of the initial investigation
      >
      >
      > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "bigalemc2" wrote:
      > >
      > > Susan -
      > > Steve Garcia here. I don't post comments here very often at all,
      > > because I don't have much to contribute. But there is at least one
      > > issue Vierira addresses that I will contend with. I think Vierira is
      > > pulling off a speculative hipshooting on the issue of the giants.
      > > Ed Grondine's book, "Man and Impact in the Americas" discusses the
      > > Indian accounts of the giants and giant skeletons found by settlers.
      > > They are sober accounts, with very little if any P.T. Barnum in any of
      > > them. Vierira is simply doing the arky 'sweep it under the carpet'
      > > hoping everyone will bow to his supposed expertise. But he shows he
      > > doesn't even know what he is talking about. Keep your eye on the pea.
      > > Vierira never talks about the giants in the areas where giants really
      > > did have remains found - with measurements in some cases.
      > > Vierira:You share newspaper clippings from the 19th century,
      > > including quotes from Abraham Lincoln, and claim they are evidence of
      > > giants. In fact, as one of our experts writes, "Skeletal hoaxes were
      > > common in the 19th century (e.g., Piltdown Man, the Cardiff Giant, and
      > > Barnum & Bailey Fiji mermaids [now at Harvard's Peabody Museum]). If
      > > (and this is a big if) the 8-foot skeleton is real, it could be a case
      > > of medical gigantism, but it is more likely a case of exaggeration."6.
      > > With respect to the theories of gigantism, the TEDx fact checkers
      > spoke
      > > to an expert who researched Middle Woodland and Mississippian skeletal
      > > collections at the Center for American Archaeology (CAA), based in
      > > Kampsville, IL, in 2007. The CAA is one of the largest repositories of
      > > excavated Woodland and Mississippian skeletal remains in the nation,
      > and
      > > their osteological collections are available for student and scholarly
      > > study. One expert stated "I can assure you that the archaeological
      > > Woodland and Mississippian populations were not giants. In some cases,
      > > one can observe a slight decrease in average height (a few
      > centimeters)
      > > with the transition from hunting and gathering to agriculture. This is
      > a
      > > trend that is observed in many cultures that undergo an agricultural
      > > transition, and is likely related to shorter nursing times and
      > increased
      > > early childhood grain consumption (maximum height is highly correlated
      > > to childhood protein consumption, so a high reliance on grain during
      > > childhood tends to result in shorter stature)."
      > > The first thing Vierira does is discount all the news accounts as
      > "19th
      > > century" as if that makes them written by a bunch of country bumpkins
      > > who wouldn't know a large skeleton from a tree.
      > > Then he makes another sweeping statement piling all the accounts into
      > > one pile - with P.T. Barnum (show biz and much later in the 19th
      > > century) and Piltdown Man (England). "Skeletal hoaxes were common in
      > > the 19th century" - what is wrong with this? It is a wave-of-the-hand
      > > generality that means nothing. My money says he did not put ONE
      > > second's effort into researching "the 19th century" (a generality in
      > > itself) and its scams - and then broadly includes the entire world in
      > > his entire 19th century. This is a common modern hubris in science -
      > > that people - even scientists - in earlier times were not as capable
      > as
      > > modern people to observe evidence clearly, thus that earlier evidence
      > > should be discounted. By this kind (Vierira) of "scientific review"
      > all
      > > the work of Maxwell, Faraday, Davy, Watt and thousands of other
      > > scientists can be included in the doubtful "19th century" scams. By
      > > associating these in his ill-informed under-the-rug move, he hopes to
      > > convince people that all 19th century evidence is unreliable - based
      > on
      > > nothing more than his say so. If I am not mistaken, Vierira never
      > > looked at ONE of the newspaper accounts himself - which is a
      > scientific
      > > strategy but a scientific scam, which goes, "I am the authority, so
      > > listen to everything I myself say and ignore anything I tell you to
      > > ignore." They do this without doing ONE bit of actual research on the
      > > specific subject.
      > > He even admits he has not looked at the evidence when he says, "If
      > (and
      > > this is a big if) the 8-foot skeleton is real." Then he really puolls
      > a
      > > boner, when he says, "it could be a case of medical gigantism." Why a
      > > boner? Because he is frankly admitting he is speculating (using the
      > > word "could"). He follow up that speculation with another: "but it is
      > > more likely a case of exaggeration." "More likely" means that he
      > again
      > > did not even look at the evidence, but is pulling this out of
      > > you-know-where - and expecting you the reader to just sit down, listen
      > > and shut up.
      > > In the following I will leave out the numerous other references to
      > > skeletons or skulls of enormous stature or size. I accept the word of
      > > the many common people from many locations far afield of each other,
      > and
      > > with no axe to grind, that when they say a skeleton is enormous or
      > > gigantic, they will be comparing the remains with their general
      > > experience and would not mention extraordinary size unless it was
      > > remarkable. :
      > > From Ed's book (p 117) "[]...the skeletons of eight persons...
      > measuring
      > > eight feet from head to toe. . . the leg bone extended six inches
      > above
      > > his knee." I will ask what some member of the Warren Commission asked
      > > about the autopsy of JFK: "Do you accept that the person was capable
      > of
      > > reading the numbers on a ruler"? (footnote available on request)
      > > (p 124) "[Ashtabula, OH] ...This land at one time was owned by Mr.
      > Peleg
      > > Sweet, who was a man of large size and full features; and it is
      > narrated
      > > that at one time he, in digging, came upon a skull and jaw which were
      > of
      > > such size that the skull would cover his head, and the jw could be
      > > easily slipped over his face, as though the head of the giant were
      > > enveloping his..."
      > > (p 127) "[Erie, PA] ...Amongst the skeletons was one of a giant, side
      > by
      > > side with a smaller one, probably his wife. The arm and legs of this
      > > [N]ative American Goliath were about one-half longer than those of the
      > > tallest man among the laborers; the skull was immensely large' the
      > lower
      > > jawbone easily slipped over the face and whiskers of a full faced
      > > man..."
      > > Ed has such accounts - footnoted - in several of his chapters, of what
      > > he calls the Copper Trading Giants, because they play a part over some
      > > time period, until they are killed off by other tribes.
      > > I recommend the book "Man and Impact in the Americas" both as good
      > > reading and as a reference. It is only available in soft cover, and
      > > only from Ed himself. See his listing at cosmictusk.com for how to
      > get
      > > a copy.
      > > Steve Garcia
      > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan" wrote:
      > > >
      > > > (Cal, i was stirred deeply by your last letter...recalled how lucky
      > i
      > > > was to have et you at a conference in Provo or Salt Lake City maybe
      > > > almost two decades ago)
      > > > Ancient Waterways friends. Happy Holidays!
      > > > Minnesota researcher Larry Furo sent an update today to another
      > group
      > > I
      > > > have great interest in. It is a lengthy, but sincere, well-written
      > > > letter and the latest word from Ashfield, Massachuetts stonemason,
      > > James
      > > > Vieira who has been mentioned at AWS before by some of you, though i
      > > > think his last name at our site was spelled incorrectly. At least
      > two
      > > > members know him personally and have expressed great respect for
      > him.
      > > > Again, a broad subject and lengthy letter from him. But I and many
      > > here
      > > > and diffusionists as well as many academics as well have long held
      > > much
      > > > interest and may find it well worth stepping further into the
      > diligent
      > > > efforts of James Vierira.
      > > > First, a somewhat random link about him first (i fell on blue ice
      > > > covered with right inches of snow in a blizzard this AM trying to
      > pick
      > > > up a Christmas tree before my children from three states come north
      > > for
      > > > our weekend holiday celebration. I hurt my neck something fierce,
      > > > waived off an ambulance and cannot linger long here). Next, i hope
      > > will
      > > > follow his most recent public letter he posted at his Facebook page
      > > > under this title: Stone Builders, Mound Builders and the Giants of
      > > > Ancient America | Jim Vieira
      > > >
      > >
      > http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2012/12/stone-builders-mound-builde\
      > \
      > > \
      > > > rs-and-the-giants-of-ancient-america-jim-vieira-2506330.html
      > > > > ers-and-the-giants-of-ancient-america-jim-vieira-2506330.html>
      > > > Scanned, for those not signed into FB, from James E. Vieira, his
      > > > response to recent censorship, etc.:
      > > > "After 120,000 views, the #1 most watched tedx video in the world
      > > during
      > > > the month it was up, my talk has been removed. I am posting the
      > resons
      > > > given and my response. A long but interesting read about how
      > > censorship
      > > > can happen. Thanks JimAt 2:03 -- You claim: "These structures are so
      > > > staggering that people don't even think they exist still." In
      > > > fact, there is a general archaeological consensus about the
      > impressive
      > > > civilization demonstrated by the moundbuilders in Cahokia and
      > similar
      > > > sites.2. At 4:05 -- You claim: "The moundbuilders who built all
      > > > kinds of structures." All evidence for the moundbuilders'
      > > > architecture suggests that they built with sod packets and wood.3.
      > At
      > > > 4:19 -- You mention carbon-dating but do not specify what was
      > > > carbon-dated. You cannot carbon-date stone. Again at 6:00.4. At 7:26
      > > --
      > > > You mention Mayan theories. Since the recent deciphering of almost
      > the
      > > > full Mayan script, the astronomical preoccupation attributed to
      > Mayan
      > > > writings has been largely discredited. Most of the numbers found in
      > > the
      > > > Mayan script are now believed to be dates of births, coronations and
      > > > wars.5. At 9:15 -- You share newspaper clippings from the 19th
      > > century,
      > > > including quotes from Abraham Lincoln, and claim they are evidence
      > of
      > > > giants. In fact, as one of our experts writes, "Skeletal hoaxes were
      > > > common in the 19th century (e.g., Piltdown Man, the Cardiff Giant,
      > and
      > > > Barnum & Bailey Fiji mermaids [now at Harvard's Peabody Museum]). If
      > > > (and this is a big if) the 8-foot skeleton is real, it could be a
      > case
      > > > of medical gigantism, but it is more likely a case of
      > exaggeration."6.
      > > > With respect to the theories of gigantism, the TEDx fact checkers
      > > spoke
      > > > to an expert who researched Middle Woodland and Mississippian
      > skeletal
      > > > collections at the Center for American Archaeology (CAA), based in
      > > > Kampsville, IL, in 2007. The CAA is one of the largest repositories
      > of
      > > > excavated Woodland and Mississippian skeletal remains in the nation,
      > > and
      > > > their osteological collections are available for student and
      > scholarly
      > > > study. One expert stated "I can assure you that the archaeological
      > > > Woodland and Mississippian populations were not giants. In some
      > cases,
      > > > one can observe a slight decrease in average height (a few
      > > centimeters)
      > > > with the transition from hunting and gathering to agriculture. This
      > is
      > > a
      > > > trend that is observed in many cultures that undergo an agricultural
      > > > transition, and is likely related to shorter nursing times and
      > > increased
      > > > early childhood grain consumption (maximum height is highly
      > correlated
      > > > to childhood protein consumption, so a high reliance on grain during
      > > > childhood tends to result in shorter stature)."7. At 12:49 -- "Bones
      > > > crumbled away because they weren't mummified." Skeletal
      > > > preservation and mummification are unrelated processes. Plenty of
      > > > skeletons survive in New England, and the disappearance of any and
      > all
      > > > skeletons that could lend evidence to these claims today is highly
      > > > suspect.8. With respect to repeated claims that the Smithsonian is
      > > > hiding or covering up evidence, the fact checkers also heard this,
      > as
      > > > well: "In 2007 I was a visiting scientist at the Smithsonian Museum
      > > > Support Center, and while it is full of amazing and bizarre material
      > > > (e.g., an entire herd of elephants that Teddy Roosevelt shot
      > occupies
      > > > one floor), there is no conspiracy to cover up or hide Native
      > American
      > > > giant skeletons or artifacts. Like most museums, the Smithsonian
      > > > displays less than 1% of its collections at any given time, meaning
      > > that
      > > > a lot of material spends decades (or sadly centuries) in its vaults
      > > > awaiting exhibition. We can debate whether or not this is
      > responsible
      > > > stewardship (a debate that would also have to include a discussion
      > of
      > > > the chronic underfunding of public museums and the economics of
      > public
      > > > education), but to portray the Smithsonian today as part of some
      > sort
      > > of
      > > > a conspiracy of `misinformation and corruption' to cover up
      > > > Native American history by hiding giant moundbuilder skeletons
      > > excavated
      > > > in the 19th century is ridiculous. Smithsonian physical
      > > anthropologists
      > > > have published an impressive body of literature on the analysis of
      > > their
      > > > collections."I am writing to respond to the stated reasons why my
      > TEDX
      > > > talk was removed. 1. My assertion is that the staggering structures
      > of
      > > > the Mound Builders are largely unknown by the general public. I did
      > > not
      > > > state that Archaeologists were unaware of this, I simply stated that
      > > the
      > > > large majority of the population has no idea that they existed. I
      > have
      > > > presented to thousands of people and always ask if anyone has ever
      > > heard
      > > > of the Mound Builders and their creations; no more than a handful
      > has
      > > > said yes. Despite the astounding engineering feats and widespread
      > > > construction of mind-boggling earthen pyramids and geometric forms
      > in
      > > > Ancient America this is barely discussed in high school or college
      > > > education. The TED Board's assertion is a transparent attempt to
      > > portray
      > > > me as lacking a basic understanding of Archaeological theory.2. This
      > > > statement is false. Actually, this helps prove my point that the
      > works
      > > > of the Mound Builders are poorly understood, even by the experts .
      > The
      > > > Mound Builders are well known for building with stone. There is
      > > > absolutely an archaeological consensus for this. The Adena ,
      > Hopewell
      > > > and Fort Ancient cultures built massive stone wall complexes, stone
      > > > mounds and often stone temple chambers within earthen mounds. The
      > > Butler
      > > > Co. site, Miami Co. site, Fort Hill, Spruce Hill and the Old Stone
      > > Fort
      > > > at Tennessee are a few of the well known and universally accepted
      > > stone
      > > > works of Ancient America. Spruce Hill was a 140 acre hilltop with a
      > > two
      > > > and a quarter mile-long stone wall around the perimeter. A map of
      > the
      > > > site is listed in the Smithsonian's 12th annual ethnology report by
      > > the
      > > > respected Cyrus Thomas who also mapped the stone fort at Flint
      > ridge.
      > > > All this info can be seen in Norman Mueller's Glenford Stone Fort
      > and
      > > > other Stone Constructions in Ohio and Beyond. From the History of
      > > Perry
      > > > County Ohio 1902 is a description of the Adena stone hilltop
      > enclosure
      > > > and stone burial mound. "Archeologists from all over the land have
      > > > visited here and the consensus of opinion is that the Glenford site
      > is
      > > > one of the most wonderful of fortifications....it is a fraction over
      > > 27
      > > > acres. It is made entirely of stone." Also from Gerard Fowke's
      > > > Antiquities of MO. 1902 pg 65, "So far as the ability to work in
      > stone
      > > > is concerned, some stone chambers which exist in Pike County MO.
      > have
      > > > been mentioned as examples of the skill of the Mound Builders in
      > this
      > > > respect." Fowkes work is widely known and published in Smithsonian
      > > > Ethnology Reports. There is complete consensus within mainstream
      > > > archaeology that the Mound Builders built many structures of stone.
      > > > Looks like you might have to vet your experts a little better. 3. To
      > > > state to me that you cannot carbon date stone is insulting , clearly
      > > > only organic material such as charcoal and bone fragments can be
      > > carbon
      > > > dated. I in fact read a report in my talk from highly respected and
      > > > award winning Geochrom labs in Massachusetts about the Mystery Hill
      > > site
      > > > in New Hampshire. May 30th 1966 sample # GX-1608 submitted by Robert
      > > > Stone as given by Archaeologist Jim Whitall. Harold W. Kruger
      > > technical
      > > > director of Geochron states "you have found something very
      > interesting
      > > > from this site with a rather old date of 2995 B.P." Kruger states
      > that
      > > > there is a quite an adequate amount of material for dating. Date was
      > > > 2995 B.P. +/- 180 C-14 years. Whitall also excavated carbon remains
      > > from
      > > > the Putney VT. stone chamber that yielded a date of 492 A.D. and
      > > > excavated one of the oldest burial mound sites in the country, the
      > > > Morrill Point site in Salisbury Ma. He found three human skeletons
      > and
      > > > artifacts as well as conclusively proving a stone wall at the site
      > > > through carbon dating of layers of organic material is at least 900
      > > > years old. The Maritime Archaic site at Morrill Point proved to be
      > > 7500
      > > > years old and before Mr. Whitall passed away he was joined by Dr.
      > > Bruce
      > > > Bourque and the highly regarded Dr. William Fitzhugh of the
      > > Smithsonian
      > > > to make sure he received credit for his amazing discovery. The
      > L'Anse
      > > > Amour stone burial mound in Labrador was expertly dated and
      > > universally
      > > > recognized as being built 7500 years ago proving that stonework in
      > the
      > > > northeast goes back at least this far. All this information is
      > readily
      > > > available for anyone to see. I know a story about a bit of
      > > > pseudoscience. How about the Clovis Barrier, the crowning
      > achievement
      > > of
      > > > Archaeology, rammed down our throat for 70 years now proven
      > > > incontrovertibly false. If you questioned this for years you were
      > > > considered a crank and a fool. Do you think a possible revaluation
      > of
      > > > other theories that are riddled with unexplained anomalies may
      > happen
      > > > soon. The only thing I ask for a fair and open discussion of
      > anomalies
      > > > but the system always demonizes the one who points these out,
      > engages
      > > in
      > > > personal attacks and a misdirection away from the evidence. Does
      > > anyone
      > > > have Galileo's email address?4. I stated that some researchers
      > believe
      > > > that the mound builder culture that started in Watson Brake La. in
      > > > roughly 3400 B.C. may have been influenced by contact with societies
      > > in
      > > > the Yucatan or actual migrations northward by members of that
      > > > civilization. In fact there is conclusive proof of trade routes
      > > covering
      > > > thousands of miles in Ancient America as evidence from artifact
      > finds
      > > at
      > > > Hopewell sites in Illinois. Mississippian era earthen pyramid temple
      > > > building clearly resembles Mesoamerican stone pyramids and huge
      > plazas
      > > > such as the one at Cahokia make it perfectly reasonable to assume a
      > > > possible, more southerly influence at some time. The geometry and
      > > > astronomical orientations of the Mound Builders are widely accepted-
      > > see
      > > > Bradley Leper the curator of Archaeology at the Ohio Historical
      > > > Societies work and Lively and Horn's research on the Newark Octagon.
      > > 5.
      > > > I, along with many other researchers who have written books on this
      > > > matter have collected thousands of accounts in town histories, NYT
      > > > articles, the Smithsonian's Ethnology reports, Scientific American
      > and
      > > > American Antiquarian of giant skeletal remains being discovered.
      > Many
      > > of
      > > > these with anatomic anomalies such as double rows of teeth. This
      > > occurs
      > > > not just in 1840 but through decades of time and across thousands of
      > > > miles. The discoveries continued throughout the 1920's, 30's, 40's
      > and
      > > > into the 60's. Don Dragoo was directly affiliated with the Carnegie
      > > > museum of Natural History from the years 1952-1977. He is considered
      > > the
      > > > last of the great Adena scholars and by the end of his career was
      > > named
      > > > curator of the Carnegie's Section of Anthropology. The following is
      > a
      > > > quote from his Mounds for the Dead. "Two outstanding traits have
      > been
      > > > noted repeatedly for this group. One is the protruding and massive
      > > chin
      > > > often with prominent bilateral protrusions. (Webb and Snow, 1959 pg.
      > > > 37). The second is the large size of many of the males and some of
      > the
      > > > females. A male of six feet was common and some individuals
      > > approaching
      > > > seven feet have been found. Not only were these Adena people tall
      > but
      > > > the massiveness of the bones indicates powerfully built individuals.
      > > The
      > > > head was generally big with a large cranial capacity." Warren K.
      > > > Morehead the " Dean of American Archaeology" unearthed giant
      > skeletons
      > > > in Illinois, Connecticut and Pennsylvania. I showed accounts of all
      > > > three in my presentation. At Tioga Point Pennsylvania. he uncovered
      > 68
      > > > skeletons averaging over 7 feet with many much larger, specimens
      > were
      > > > sent to the American Investigating Museum where they were later
      > > reported
      > > > stolen. Ralph Glidden working for the Heye Foundation unearthed
      > 3,781
      > > > skeletons averaging 7 feet with the largest 9 foot 2 inches on
      > > Catalina
      > > > Island CA. I have numerous pictures of these finds including a
      > picture
      > > > from the Santa Barbara museum in 1959 of these giant skeleton finds.
      > > > This is not a case of gigantism, countless accounts speak of dozens
      > of
      > > > skeletons being uncovered, often with bizarre anatomic anomalies.
      > Alex
      > > > Hrdlicka, the first head of the Smithsonian Division of Anthropology
      > > > starting in 1903 closed the door on the matter of giant skeletal
      > finds
      > > > being reported. He guided the Smithsonian to attack and marginalize
      > > all
      > > > this information but he could not erase the Smithsonian's own
      > > Ethnology
      > > > reports so he claimed that "giants are no more" and that an
      > inability
      > > to
      > > > measure correctly and understand human anatomy properly was the
      > reason
      > > > why these things were previously reported. Hrdlicka believed in
      > > Pre-Nazi
      > > > eugenics, thought no civilization existed in America before 4000
      > years
      > > > ago and zealously attacked and intimidated anyone who challenged
      > these
      > > > ideas- calling Louis Leaky a heretic to his face and destroying the
      > > > career of Warren K. Morehead. Hrdlicka is quoted in the Science News
      > > > Letter v13 #353 1928 p21 as claiming "the greatest danger before the
      > > > American people is the blending of the Negro tenth of the population
      > > > into the superior blood of the white race." In 1937 he published
      > > > findings in his Journal of Physical Anthropology to "prove that the
      > > > negro race is phylogenetically a closer approach to primitive man
      > than
      > > > the white race." And just for good measure in 1927 endorsed findings
      > > > comparing African babies with young apes. Before Hrdlicka's reign
      > > there
      > > > were no denials of giant skeleton finds. Hrdlicka along with many of
      > > his
      > > > white supremacist colleagues at the Institution purged new evidence
      > > and
      > > > marginalized and intimidated all who stood in the way of portraying
      > > the
      > > > races of Ancient America as anything other than unsophisticated.
      > > Through
      > > > cranial measurement Hrdlicka concluded that Native Americans along
      > > with
      > > > African Americans were inferior to the white race. As geologist Kirk
      > > > Bryan told his students during the reign of Hrdrickla "if you ever
      > > find
      > > > evidence of human life in a context which is ancient, bury it
      > > carefully
      > > > but do not forget about it."(from The First American: A study of
      > North
      > > > American Archaeology 1971.) Anthropologists and Archaeologists do
      > not
      > > > recognize this phenomena, they are reading texts and scientific
      > > journals
      > > > that have been censored of these accounts. Professionals read over
      > and
      > > > over again about normal sized accounts and rightfully think the
      > whole
      > > > thing is preposterous. I never claimed that all the Mound Builders
      > > were
      > > > giants or that they were the architects of the mounds. I am simply
      > > > stating that there were thousands of giant skeletal remains
      > uncovered
      > > in
      > > > Ancient America oftentimes in the burial mounds such as the Grave
      > > Creek
      > > > mound in WV. From the Charleston Daily Mail October 22nd 1922,
      > > > "Archaeologists investigating the mound dug out a skeleton of a
      > > female.
      > > > The skeleton was 7 foot 4 inches tall and the jawbone would easily
      > fit
      > > > over the face of a man weighing 160 pounds. An 8 foot male skeleton
      > > was
      > > > also found." Once again, this strange anatomic anomaly of a massive
      > > > jawbone like I found throughout the town histories of New England.6
      > I
      > > > believe response 5 also answers 6, I will say however you mention
      > > > redditskeptic as a source of your investigation. The site
      > specializes
      > > in
      > > > a series of ad hominem attacks, bad faith arguments, invisible
      > battles
      > > > with straw men and personal insults. Essentially an endless stream
      > of
      > > > infantile drivel, it is not a place for objective and open-minded
      > > > evaluation of evidence by anyone's standards. They continually
      > assail
      > > > Deepak Chopra for scientifically unproven theories such as the
      > reality
      > > > of "Chakras". By your new standards I suppose you will have to take
      > > down
      > > > his talks also, he certainly endorses theories determined
      > > > pseudoscientific by professionals.7 Bones crumbling to dust is
      > > something
      > > > to be found over and over again in the historical literature
      > including
      > > > the Smithsonian's own Ethnology reports. I was reaching for words
      > such
      > > > as mummification or preservation trying to theorize why some bones
      > > > crumbled to dust and others didn't. I was just trying to share that
      > > many
      > > > remains were measured, examined often determined to have strange
      > > > anatomic anomalies before they crumbled to dust, some but by no
      > means
      > > > all.8 Did the expert who visited the Smithsonian's museums support
      > > > center happen to make it over to the David H. Koch's Hall of Human
      > > > Origins permanent installation, where an interactive game tells us
      > > that
      > > > in the future humans may adapt to climate change by "building
      > > > underground cities, growing short compact bodies with curved spines
      > to
      > > > better move around in tight spaces." I am not talking about mermaids
      > > and
      > > > Barnum and Bailey hoaxes, were there over one hundred mermaid
      > accounts
      > > > from leading scientists of the time published in the New York Times?
      > I
      > > > am talking about thousands of accounts from the likes of Moorehead,
      > > > Webb, Dragoo, Norris, other Anthropologists, Archaeologists,
      > > Professors,
      > > > Doctors, Chief Justices and ordinary citizens. They were reporting
      > > what
      > > > they saw before their own eyes not a discussion of their religious
      > and
      > > > political beliefs. How do you tell someone who puts a skull over
      > their
      > > > head, fits a jawbone over their face or reports double rows of teeth
      > > > that they don't understand human anatomy? Your reasons for pulling
      > my
      > > > video are an attempt to portray me as an unsophisticated amateur
      > that
      > > > was taken in by some grand hoax. What I did was read through a
      > series
      > > of
      > > > town history, Smithsonian Ethnology and NYT reports. I was not
      > > > advocating a tricky, dangerous and unproven health cure but just
      > > trying
      > > > to share interesting information from the leading and most respected
      > > > Scientific Journals and sources of the time. Any disinterested
      > > teenager
      > > > can assemble a hundred of these accounts over a weekend with the
      > help
      > > of
      > > > Google books. I have a large number of accounts that state that the
      > > > Smithsonian in fact received many of these giant skeletal remains.
      > So,
      > > > why again was my video taken down? The bottom line is that I guess
      > > this
      > > > is not an idea worth sharing because it reveals corruption and
      > > cover-ups
      > > > at an institution whose misguided actions are open for anyone to see
      > > > with a little historical detective work. Not wanting to speak with
      > me
      > > or
      > > > allow me to debate these reasons before removing the video is very
      > > > troubling. I would hope you would do me the professional courtesy of
      > > > whenever or wherever you list the reasons my talk was taken down you
      > > > also allow people to see my response. "When a well packaged web of
      > > lies
      > > > has been sold gradually to the masses over generations, the truth
      > will
      > > > seem utterly preposterous and it's speaker a raving lunatic."
      > Dresden
      > > > James. Thank you,James E. Vieira"
      > > >
      > >
      > http://www.facebook.com/pages/Stone-Builders-Mound-Builders-and-the-Gian\
      > \
      > > \
      > > > ts-of-Ancient-America/556606251021542?ref=stream
      > > >
      > > > Susan English -- sent from my iPad
      > > >
      > >
      >
    • bigalemc2
      Perhaps the proper term for Clovis is Clovis Interruptus. Seriously. Steve Garcia ... And ... from ... They
      Message 2 of 10 , Dec 23, 2012
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        Perhaps the proper term for Clovis is "Clovis Interruptus."  Seriously.

        Steve Garcia


        --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "bigalemc2" wrote:
        >
        > Gumbo mentioned the REAL hoax of 20th century anthropology/archeology.
        > The Clovis Barrier was a far bigger a hoax than Piltdown man or
        > archeoraptor. It set back both fields in the Americas by 70 years. And
        > there are still hard-headed academics who still argue its reality.
        > Clovis even hurts those fields more than seven decades, because they
        > are still trying to fit older findings into a "Clovis was the MAIN
        > incursion" meme, selling Clovis as still important.
        > But Clovis DIED OUT along with mammoths, at the beginning of the
        > Younger-Dryas Stadial at 12.9 kya, and humans were all but missing from
        > North America for 1,200 years after that. Thus, if ANY main incursion
        > occurred it was more than a millennium after Clovis all died out. They
        > all need to get their stories straight.
        > Steve Garcia
        >
      • Rick O
        I retained an archival copy of the TEDX. Glad I did... ... http://tedxshelburnefalls.wordpress.com/2012/12/14/jim-vieiras-talk-remo ... giant ... papers,
        Message 3 of 10 , Dec 24, 2012
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          I retained an archival copy of the TEDX. 
          Glad I did...

          --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "bigalemc2" wrote:
          >
          > Note to all:
          > I received the following in an email. I trust I have permission to
          > paste it in here:On 12/22/2012 3:35 PM, Gumba wrote:
          > With all due respect Mr. Garcia, I believe you may have mis-read what
          > Jim Vieira has said. The quotations you cite, are actually Stacy
          > Kontrabecki from the TEDx venue. She was asked to remove the TEDx talk
          > Jim Vieira gave in November, after archaeologists and the Smithsonian
          > were furious about his presentation.
          > http://tedxshelburnefalls.wordpress.com/2012/12/14/jim-vieiras-talk-remo\
          > ved-from-internet/
          > > oved-from-internet/> Jim has compiled thousands of accounts of giant
          > skeleton discoveries, sober accounts and written records in News papers,
          > historical journals, and the Smithsonian ethnology reports. This is the
          > video which TEDx removed, after it had become viral in 2 weeks, getting
          > 120,000 views. Luckily someone re-uploaded it for the third time. TEDx
          > is actively hunting down and deleting any re-uploads of the video,
          > citing copyright violations. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d_FSmvBgHUc
          > The cover-up of this
          > information is in full swing. Jim was recently on Coast to Coast AM
          > radio with George Noory discussing the reports of gigantic Indians,
          > skeletons, and stone and mound structures and the Smithsonian cover-ups
          > under Ales Hrdlicka which continues to this day. J.S. I apologize to
          > Viera (spelling included - I still am not sure of the spelling, but
          > think it is "Viera"). If this was from Stacy Kontrabecki, I still can't
          > find that name in there, but accept that Gumbo is correct.
          > So, those reading my long comment should replace Viera's name with
          > Kontrabecki's name.
          > I completely agree with anyone who shakes his/her head at the Nazi
          > tactics of Hrdlicka, the biggest jaggoff in the history of anthropology,
          > and one who has injured it immensely and set it back/held it back by
          > many decades. His dictatorial thinking and actions have blocked so much
          > and cost USA anthropology so many thousands of valid artifacts which
          > have - because of him, specifically, and his book-burner-like followers
          > - not been preserved and are now lost forever.
          > Hopefully the true history can overcome the Hrdlicka Affect and still be
          > reconstructed.
          > Steve Garcia
          > P.S. ---- Rick O., yes, Piltdown has NEVER been - and never will, now
          > - be forensically proven one way or another. And I did not remember it
          > was after 1900, so thanks for that.
          > ....From the sober tone of the articles I've seen quoted, I cannot
          > credit any broad generalizations of 'hoax' in 19th century accounts.
          > Mention in news articles is not exactly a way of making money. America
          > has always had many entrepreneurs who have tried many 'come-ons' - but
          > being mentioned in news articles is not a superhighway to riches. Most
          > come-ons I have ever seen or heard of have been roadside signs and
          > cheesy displays in ramshackle stands - that earn meager incomes not
          > worth much.
          > But to glomp ALL mentions of giant skeletons/skulls from ALL locations
          > in several states over several decades makes the accuser look dumber
          > than George W Bush and more tinfoil than UFOs. For academics to adopt
          > that position is farcical. The real hoax is theirs, in the end.
          >
          > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Rick O" wrote:
          > >
          > > Good call, Steve! One exception: Piltdown man was a 20th century event
          > > (that has never been radio carbon dated to actually determine by
          > > scientific method whether it was a hoax- it was "assessed" as a hoax).
          > > And, yes, showmanship or newspaper sales are both possible motivations
          > > in at least some of the accounts. However, many accounts, including
          > the
          > > one I investigated thoroughly, include the names of the discovers. In
          > > the local case, I was able to verify that two of the folks named were
          > > real and contemporary to the news item. One was the acting Justice of
          > > the Peace at the time.
          > > http://youtu.be/o-JFrKsasUU
          > >
          > > For a video account of the initial investigation
          > >
          > >
          > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "bigalemc2" wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Susan -
          > > > Steve Garcia here. I don't post comments here very often at all,
          > > > because I don't have much to contribute. But there is at least one
          > > > issue Vierira addresses that I will contend with. I think Vierira
          > is
          > > > pulling off a speculative hipshooting on the issue of the giants.
          > > > Ed Grondine's book, "Man and Impact in the Americas" discusses the
          > > > Indian accounts of the giants and giant skeletons found by settlers.
          > > > They are sober accounts, with very little if any P.T. Barnum in any
          > of
          > > > them. Vierira is simply doing the arky 'sweep it under the carpet'
          > > > hoping everyone will bow to his supposed expertise. But he shows he
          > > > doesn't even know what he is talking about. Keep your eye on the
          > pea.
          > > > Vierira never talks about the giants in the areas where giants
          > really
          > > > did have remains found - with measurements in some cases.
          > > > Vierira:You share newspaper clippings from the 19th century,
          > > > including quotes from Abraham Lincoln, and claim they are evidence
          > of
          > > > giants. In fact, as one of our experts writes, "Skeletal hoaxes were
          > > > common in the 19th century (e.g., Piltdown Man, the Cardiff Giant,
          > and
          > > > Barnum & Bailey Fiji mermaids [now at Harvard's Peabody Museum]). If
          > > > (and this is a big if) the 8-foot skeleton is real, it could be a
          > case
          > > > of medical gigantism, but it is more likely a case of
          > exaggeration."6.
          > > > With respect to the theories of gigantism, the TEDx fact checkers
          > > spoke to an expert who researched Middle Woodland and Mississippian
          > skeletal
          > > > collections at the Center for American Archaeology (CAA), based in
          > > > Kampsville, IL, in 2007. The CAA is one of the largest repositories
          > of
          > > > excavated Woodland and Mississippian skeletal remains in the nation,
          > > and their osteological collections are available for student and
          > scholarly
          > > > study. One expert stated "I can assure you that the archaeological
          > > > Woodland and Mississippian populations were not giants. In some
          > cases,
          > > > one can observe a slight decrease in average height (a few
          > > centimeters)
          > > > with the transition from hunting and gathering to agriculture. This
          > is
          > > a trend that is observed in many cultures that undergo an agricultural
          > > > transition, and is likely related to shorter nursing times and
          > > increased early childhood grain consumption (maximum height is highly
          > correlated
          > > > to childhood protein consumption, so a high reliance on grain during
          > > > childhood tends to result in shorter stature)."
          > > > The first thing Vierira does is discount all the news accounts as
          > > "19th century" as if that makes them written by a bunch of country
          > bumpkins
          > > > who wouldn't know a large skeleton from a tree.
          > > > Then he makes another sweeping statement piling all the accounts
          > into
          > > > one pile - with P.T. Barnum (show biz and much later in the 19th
          > > > century) and Piltdown Man (England). "Skeletal hoaxes were common
          > in
          > > > the 19th century" - what is wrong with this? It is a
          > wave-of-the-hand
          > > > generality that means nothing. My money says he did not put ONE
          > > > second's effort into researching "the 19th century" (a generality in
          > > > itself) and its scams - and then broadly includes the entire world
          > in
          > > > his entire 19th century. This is a common modern hubris in science
          > -
          > > > that people - even scientists - in earlier times were not as capable
          > > as modern people to observe evidence clearly, thus that earlier
          > evidence
          > > > should be discounted. By this kind (Vierira) of "scientific review"
          > > all the work of Maxwell, Faraday, Davy, Watt and thousands of other
          > > > scientists can be included in the doubtful "19th century" scams. By
          > > > associating these in his ill-informed under-the-rug move, he hopes
          > to
          > > > convince people that all 19th century evidence is unreliable - based
          > > on nothing more than his say so. If I am not mistaken, Vierira never
          > > > looked at ONE of the newspaper accounts himself - which is a
          > > scientific strategy but a scientific scam, which goes, "I am the
          > authority, so
          > > > listen to everything I myself say and ignore anything I tell you to
          > > > ignore." They do this without doing ONE bit of actual research on
          > the
          > > > specific subject.
          > > > He even admits he has not looked at the evidence when he says, "If
          > > (and this is a big if) the 8-foot skeleton is real." Then he really
          > pulls
          > > a boner, when he says, "it could be a case of medical gigantism." Why
          > a
          > > > boner? Because he is frankly admitting he is speculating (using the
          > > > word "could"). He follows up that speculation with another: "but it
          > is
          > > > more likely a case of exaggeration." "More likely" means that he
          > > again did not even look at the evidence, but is pulling this out of
          > > > you-know-where - and expecting you the reader to just sit down,
          > listen
          > > > and shut up.
          > > > In the following I will leave out the numerous other references
          > to
          > > > skeletons or skulls of enormous stature or size. I accept the word
          > of
          > > > the many common people from many locations far afield of each other,
          > > and with no axe to grind, that when they say a skeleton is enormous or
          > > > gigantic, they will be comparing the remains with their general
          > > > experience and would not mention extraordinary size unless it was
          > > > remarkable. :
          > > > From Ed's book (p 117) "[]...the skeletons of eight persons...
          > > measuring eight feet from head to toe. . . the leg bone extended six
          > inches
          > > above his knee." I will ask what some member of the Warren Commission
          > asked
          > > > about the autopsy of JFK: "Do you accept that the person was capable
          > > of reading the numbers on a ruler"? (footnote available on request)
          > > > (p 124) "[Ashtabula, OH] ...This land at one time was owned by Mr.
          > > Peleg Sweet, who was a man of large size and full features; and it is
          > > narrated that at one time he, in digging, came upon a skull and jaw
          > which were
          > > of such size that the skull would cover his head, and the jaw could be
          > > > easily slipped over his face, as though the head of the giant were
          > > > enveloping his..."
          > > > (p 127) "[Erie, PA] ...Amongst the skeletons was one of a giant,
          > side
          > > by side with a smaller one, probably his wife. The arm and legs of
          > this
          > > > [N]ative American Goliath were about one-half longer than those of
          > the
          > > > tallest man among the laborers; the skull was immensely large' the
          > > lower jawbone easily slipped over the face and whiskers of a full
          > faced man..."
          > > > Ed has such accounts - footnoted - in several of his chapters, of
          > what
          > > > he calls the Copper Trading Giants, because they play a part over
          > some
          > > > time period, until they are killed off by other tribes.
          > > > I recommend the book "Man and Impact in the Americas" both as good
          > > > reading and as a reference. It is only available in soft cover, and
          > > > only from Ed himself. See his listing at cosmictusk.com for how to
          > > get a copy.
          > > > Steve Garcia
          > > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan" wrote:
          > > > >
          > > > > (Cal, i was stirred deeply by your last letter...recalled how
          > lucky
          > > > > I was to have met you at a conference in Provo or Salt Lake City
          > maybe
          > > > > almost two decades ago)
          > > > > Ancient Waterways friends. Happy Holidays!
          > > > > Minnesota researcher Larry Furo sent an update today to another
          > > group I have great interest in. It is a lengthy, but sincere,
          > well-written
          > > > > letter and the latest word from Ashfield, Massachuetts stonemason,
          > > > James Vieira who has been mentioned at AWS before by some of you,
          > though i
          > > > > think his last name at our site was spelled incorrectly. At least
          > > two members know him personally and have expressed great respect for
          > > him. Again, a broad subject and lengthy letter from him. But I and
          > many
          > > > here and diffusionists as well as many academics as well have long
          > held
          > > > much interest and may find it well worth stepping further into the
          > > diligent efforts of James Vierira.
          > > > > First, a somewhat random link about him first (i fell on blue ice
          > > > > covered with right inches of snow in a blizzard this AM trying to
          > > pick up a Christmas tree before my children from three states come
          > north
          > > > for our weekend holiday celebration. I hurt my neck something
          > fierce,
          > > > > waived off an ambulance and cannot linger long here). Next, i hope
          > > > will follow his most recent public letter he posted at his Facebook
          > page
          > > > > under this title: Stone Builders, Mound Builders and the Giants
          > of
          > > > > Ancient America | Jim Vieira
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative/2012/12/stone-builders-mound-builde\
          > rs-and-the-giants-of-ancient-america-jim-vieira-2506330.html
          > > > >
          > > > > Scanned, for those not signed into FB, from James E. Vieira, his
          > > > > response to recent censorship, etc.:
          > > > > "After 120,000 views, the #1 most watched tedx video in the world
          > > > during the month it was up, my talk has been removed. I am posting
          > the
          > > resons given and my response. A long but interesting read about how
          > > > censorship can happen. Thanks JimAt 2:03 -- You claim: "These
          > structures are so
          > > > > staggering that people don't even think they exist still." In
          > > > > fact, there is a general archaeological consensus about the
          > > impressive civilization demonstrated by the moundbuilders in Cahokia
          > and
          > > similar sites.2. At 4:05 -- You claim: "The moundbuilders who built
          > all
          > > > > kinds of structures." All evidence for the moundbuilders'
          > > > > architecture suggests that they built with sod packets and wood.3.
          > > At 4:19 -- You mention carbon-dating but do not specify what was
          > > > > carbon-dated. You cannot carbon-date stone. Again at 6:00.4. At
          > 7:26
          > > > -- You mention Mayan theories. Since the recent deciphering of
          > almost
          > > the full Mayan script, the astronomical preoccupation attributed to
          > > Mayan writings has been largely discredited. Most of the numbers found
          > in
          > > > the Mayan script are now believed to be dates of births, coronations
          > and
          > > > > wars.5. At 9:15 -- You share newspaper clippings from the 19th
          > > > century, including quotes from Abraham Lincoln, and claim they are
          > evidence
          > > of giants. In fact, as one of our experts writes, "Skeletal hoaxes
          > were
          > > > > common in the 19th century (e.g., Piltdown Man, the Cardiff Giant,
          > > and Barnum & Bailey Fiji mermaids [now at Harvard's Peabody Museum]).
          > If
          > > > > (and this is a big if) the 8-foot skeleton is real, it could be a
          > > case of medical gigantism, but it is more likely a case of
          > > exaggeration."6. With respect to the theories of gigantism, the TEDx
          > fact checkers
          > > > spoke to an expert who researched Middle Woodland and Mississippian
          > > skeletal collections at the Center for American Archaeology (CAA),
          > based in
          > > > > Kampsville, IL, in 2007. The CAA is one of the largest
          > repositories
          > > of excavated Woodland and Mississippian skeletal remains in the
          > nation,
          > > > and their osteological collections are available for student and
          > > scholarly study. One expert stated "I can assure you that the
          > archaeological
          > > > > Woodland and Mississippian populations were not giants. In some
          > > cases, one can observe a slight decrease in average height (a few
          > > > centimeters) with the transition from hunting and gathering to
          > agriculture. This
          > > is a trend that is observed in many cultures that undergo an
          > agricultural
          > > > > transition, and is likely related to shorter nursing times and
          > > > increased early childhood grain consumption (maximum height is
          > highly
          > > correlated to childhood protein consumption, so a high reliance on
          > grain during
          > > > > childhood tends to result in shorter stature)."7. At 12:49 --
          > "Bones
          > > > > crumbled away because they weren't mummified." Skeletal
          > > > > preservation and mummification are unrelated processes. Plenty of
          > > > > skeletons survive in New England, and the disappearance of any and
          > > all skeletons that could lend evidence to these claims today is highly
          > > > > suspect.8. With respect to repeated claims that the Smithsonian is
          > > > > hiding or covering up evidence, the fact checkers also heard this,
          > > as well: "In 2007 I was a visiting scientist at the Smithsonian Museum
          > > > > Support Center, and while it is full of amazing and bizarre
          > material
          > > > > (e.g., an entire herd of elephants that Teddy Roosevelt shot
          > > occupies one floor), there is no conspiracy to cover up or hide Native
          > > American giant skeletons or artifacts. Like most museums, the
          > Smithsonian
          > > > > displays less than 1% of its collections at any given time,
          > meaning
          > > > that a lot of material spends decades (or sadly centuries) in its
          > vaults
          > > > > awaiting exhibition. We can debate whether or not this is
          > > responsible stewardship (a debate that would also have to include a
          > discussion
          > > of the chronic underfunding of public museums and the economics of
          > > public education), but to portray the Smithsonian today as part of
          > some
          > > sort of a conspiracy of `misinformation and corruption' to cover up
          > > > > Native American history by hiding giant moundbuilder skeletons
          > > > excavated in the 19th century is ridiculous. Smithsonian physical
          > > > anthropologists have published an impressive body of literature on
          > the analysis of
          > > > their collections."I am writing to respond to the stated reasons why
          > my
          > > TEDX talk was removed. 1. My assertion is that the staggering
          > structures
          > > of the Mound Builders are largely unknown by the general public. I did
          > > > not state that Archaeologists were unaware of this, I simply stated
          > that
          > > > the large majority of the population has no idea that they existed.
          > I
          > > have presented to thousands of people and always ask if anyone has
          > ever
          > > > heard of the Mound Builders and their creations; no more than a
          > handful
          > > has said yes. Despite the astounding engineering feats and widespread
          > > > > construction of mind-boggling earthen pyramids and geometric forms
          > > in Ancient America this is barely discussed in high school or college
          > > > > education. The TED Board's assertion is a transparent attempt to
          > > > portray me as lacking a basic understanding of Archaeological
          > theory.2. This
          > > > > statement is false. Actually, this helps prove my point that the
          > > works of the Mound Builders are poorly understood, even by the experts
          > .
          > > The Mound Builders are well known for building with stone. There is
          > > > > absolutely an archaeological consensus for this. The Adena ,
          > > Hopewell and Fort Ancient cultures built massive stone wall complexes,
          > stone
          > > > > mounds and often stone temple chambers within earthen mounds. The
          > > > Butler Co. site, Miami Co. site, Fort Hill, Spruce Hill and the Old
          > Stone
          > > > Fort at Tennessee are a few of the well known and universally
          > accepted
          > > > stone works of Ancient America. Spruce Hill was a 140 acre hilltop
          > with a
          > > > two and a quarter mile-long stone wall around the perimeter. A map
          > of
          > > the site is listed in the Smithsonian's 12th annual ethnology report
          > by
          > > > the respected Cyrus Thomas who also mapped the stone fort at Flint
          > > ridge.
          > > > > All this info can be seen in Norman Mueller's Glenford Stone Fort
          > > and other Stone Constructions in Ohio and Beyond. From the History of
          > > > Perry County Ohio 1902 is a description of the Adena stone hilltop
          > > enclosure and stone burial mound. "Archeologists from all over the
          > land have
          > > > > visited here and the consensus of opinion is that the Glenford
          > site
          > > is> one of the most wonderful of fortifications....it is a fraction
          > over
          > > > 27 acres. It is made entirely of stone." Also from Gerard Fowke's
          > > > > Antiquities of MO. 1902 pg 65, "So far as the ability to work in
          > > stone is concerned, some stone chambers which exist in Pike County MO.
          > > have been mentioned as examples of the skill of the Mound Builders in
          > > this respect." Fowkes work is widely known and published in
          > Smithsonian
          > > > > Ethnology Reports. There is complete consensus within mainstream
          > > > > archaeology that the Mound Builders built many structures of
          > stone.
          > > > > Looks like you might have to vet your experts a little better. 3.
          > To
          > > > > state to me that you cannot carbon date stone is insulting ,
          > clearly
          > > > > only organic material such as charcoal and bone fragments can be
          > > > > carbon dated. I in fact read a report in my talk from highly
          > respected and
          > > > > award winning Geochrom labs in Massachusetts about the Mystery
          > Hill
          > > > > site in New Hampshire. May 30th 1966 sample # GX-1608 submitted by
          > Robert
          > > > > Stone as given by Archaeologist Jim Whitall. Harold W. Kruger
          > > > > technical director of Geochron states "you have found something
          > very
          > > interesting from this site with a rather old date of 2995 B.P." Kruger
          > states
          > > that there is a quite an adequate amount of material for dating. Date
          > was
          > > > > 2995 B.P. +/- 180 C-14 years. Whitall also excavated carbon
          > remains
          > > > from the Putney VT. stone chamber that yielded a date of 492 A.D.
          > and
          > > > > excavated one of the oldest burial mound sites in the country, the
          > > > > Morrill Point site in Salisbury Ma. He found three human skeletons
          > > and artifacts as well as conclusively proving a stone wall at the site
          > > > > through carbon dating of layers of organic material is at least
          > 900
          > > > > years old. The Maritime Archaic site at Morrill Point proved to be
          > > > 7500 years old and before Mr. Whitall passed away he was joined by
          > Dr.
          > > > Bruce Bourque and the highly regarded Dr. William Fitzhugh of the
          > > > Smithsonian to make sure he received credit for his amazing
          > discovery. The
          > > L'Anse Amour stone burial mound in Labrador was expertly dated and
          > > > universally recognized as being built 7500 years ago proving that
          > stonework in
          > > the northeast goes back at least this far. All this information is
          > > readily available for anyone to see. I know a story about a bit of
          > > > > pseudoscience. How about the Clovis Barrier, the crowning
          > > achievement of Archaeology, rammed down our throat for 70 years now
          > proven
          > > > > incontrovertibly false. If you questioned this for years you were
          > > > > considered a crank and a fool. Do you think a possible revaluation
          > > > > of other theories that are riddled with unexplained anomalies may
          > > happen soon. The only thing I ask for a fair and open discussion of
          > > anomalies but the system always demonizes the one who points these
          > out,
          > > engages in personal attacks and a misdirection away from the evidence.
          > Does
          > > > anyone have Galileo's email address?4. I stated that some
          > researchers
          > > believe that the mound builder culture that started in Watson Brake
          > La. in
          > > > > roughly 3400 B.C. may have been influenced by contact with
          > societies
          > > > in the Yucatan or actual migrations northward by members of that
          > > > > civilization. In fact there is conclusive proof of trade routes
          > > > covering thousands of miles in Ancient America as evidence from
          > artifact
          > > finds at Hopewell sites in Illinois. Mississippian era earthen pyramid
          > temple
          > > > > building clearly resembles Mesoamerican stone pyramids and huge
          > > plazas such as the one at Cahokia make it perfectly reasonable to
          > assume a
          > > > > possible, more southerly influence at some time. The geometry and
          > > > > astronomical orientations of the Mound Builders are widely
          > accepted-
          > > > see Bradley Leper the curator of Archaeology at the Ohio Historical
          > > > > Societies work and Lively and Horn's research on the Newark
          > Octagon.5
          > > > I, along with many other researchers who have written books on this
          > > > > matter have collected thousands of accounts in town histories, NYT
          > > > > articles, the Smithsonian's Ethnology reports, Scientific American
          > > and American Antiquarian of giant skeletal remains being discovered.
          > > Many of these with anatomic anomalies such as double rows of teeth.
          > This
          > > > occurs not just in 1840 but through decades of time and across
          > thousands of
          > > > > miles. The discoveries continued throughout the 1920's, 30's, 40's
          > > and into the 60's. Don Dragoo was directly affiliated with the
          > Carnegie
          > > > > museum of Natural History from the years 1952-1977. He is
          > considered
          > > > the last of the great Adena scholars and by the end of his career
          > was
          > > > named curator of the Carnegie's Section of Anthropology. The
          > following is
          > > a quote from his Mounds for the Dead. "Two outstanding traits have
          > > been noted repeatedly for this group. One is the protruding and
          > massive
          > > > chin often with prominent bilateral protrusions. (Webb and Snow,
          > 1959 pg.
          > > > > 37). The second is the large size of many of the males and some of
          > > the females. A male of six feet was common and some individuals
          > > > approaching seven feet have been found. Not only were these Adena
          > people tall
          > > but the massiveness of the bones indicates powerfully built
          > individuals.
          > > > The head was generally big with a large cranial capacity." Warren K.
          > > > > Morehead the " Dean of American Archaeology" unearthed giant
          > > skeletons in Illinois, Connecticut and Pennsylvania. I showed accounts
          > of all
          > > > > three in my presentation. At Tioga Point Pennsylvania. he
          > uncovered
          > > 68 skeletons averaging over 7 feet with many much larger, specimens
          > > were sent to the American Investigating Museum where they were later
          > > > reported stolen. Ralph Glidden working for the Heye Foundation
          > unearthed
          > > 3,781 skeletons averaging 7 feet with the largest 9 foot 2 inches on
          > > > Catalina Island CA. I have numerous pictures of these finds
          > including a
          > > picture from the Santa Barbara museum in 1959 of these giant skeleton
          > finds.
          > > > > This is not a case of gigantism, countless accounts speak of
          > dozens
          > > of skeletons being uncovered, often with bizarre anatomic anomalies.
          > > Alex Hrdlicka, the first head of the Smithsonian Division of
          > Anthropology
          > > > > starting in 1903 closed the door on the matter of giant skeletal
          > > finds being reported. He guided the Smithsonian to attack and
          > marginalize
          > > > all this information but he could not erase the Smithsonian's own
          > > > Ethnology reports so he claimed that "giants are no more" and that
          > an
          > > inability to measure correctly and understand human anatomy properly
          > was the
          > > reason why these things were previously reported. Hrdlicka believed in
          > > > Pre-Nazi eugenics, thought no civilization existed in America before
          > 4000
          > > years ago and zealously attacked and intimidated anyone who challenged
          > > these ideas- calling Louis Leaky a heretic to his face and destroying
          > the
          > > > > career of Warren K. Morehead. Hrdlicka is quoted in the Science
          > News
          > > > > Letter v13 #353 1928 p21 as claiming "the greatest danger before
          > the
          > > > > American people is the blending of the Negro tenth of the
          > population
          > > > > into the superior blood of the white race." In 1937 he published
          > > > > findings in his Journal of Physical Anthropology to "prove that
          > the
          > > > > negro race is phylogenetically a closer approach to primitive man
          > > than the white race." And just for good measure in 1927 endorsed
          > findings
          > > > > comparing African babies with young apes. Before Hrdlicka's reign
          > > > there were no denials of giant skeleton finds. Hrdlicka along with
          > many of
          > > > his white supremacist colleagues at the Institution purged new
          > evidence
          > > > and marginalized and intimidated all who stood in the way of
          > portraying
          > > > the races of Ancient America as anything other than unsophisticated.
          > > > Through cranial measurement Hrdlicka concluded that Native Americans
          > along
          > > > with African Americans were inferior to the white race. As geologist
          > Kirk
          > > > > Bryan told his students during the reign of Hrdrickla "if you ever
          > > > find evidence of human life in a context which is ancient, bury it
          > > > carefully but do not forget about it."(from The First American: A
          > study of
          > > North American Archaeology 1971.) Anthropologists and Archaeologists
          > do
          > > not recognize this phenomena, they are reading texts and scientific
          > > > journals that have been censored of these accounts. Professionals
          > read over
          > > and over again about normal sized accounts and rightfully think the
          > > whole thing is preposterous. I never claimed that all the Mound
          > Builders
          > > > were giants or that they were the architects of the mounds. I am
          > simply
          > > > > stating that there were thousands of giant skeletal remains
          > > uncovered in Ancient America oftentimes in the burial mounds such as
          > the Grave
          > > > Creek mound in WV. From the Charleston Daily Mail October 22nd 1922,
          > > > > "Archaeologists investigating the mound dug out a skeleton of a
          > > > female. The skeleton was 7 foot 4 inches tall and the jawbone would
          > easily
          > > fit over the face of a man weighing 160 pounds. An 8 foot male
          > skeleton
          > > > was also found." Once again, this strange anatomic anomaly of a
          > massive
          > > > > jawbone like I found throughout the town histories of New
          > England.6
          > > I believe response 5 also answers 6, I will say however you mention
          > > > > redditskeptic as a source of your investigation. The site
          > > specializes in a series of ad hominem attacks, bad faith arguments,
          > invisible
          > > battles with straw men and personal insults. Essentially an endless
          > stream
          > > of infantile drivel, it is not a place for objective and open-minded
          > > > > evaluation of evidence by anyone's standards. They continually
          > > assail Deepak Chopra for scientifically unproven theories such as the
          > > reality of "Chakras". By your new standards I suppose you will have to
          > take
          > > > down his talks also, he certainly endorses theories determined
          > > > > pseudoscientific by professionals.7 Bones crumbling to dust is
          > > > something to be found over and over again in the historical
          > literature
          > > including the Smithsonian's own Ethnology reports. I was reaching for
          > words
          > > such as mummification or preservation trying to theorize why some
          > bones
          > > > > crumbled to dust and others didn't. I was just trying to share
          > that
          > > > many remains were measured, examined often determined to have
          > strange
          > > > > anatomic anomalies before they crumbled to dust, some but by no
          > > means all.8 Did the expert who visited the Smithsonian's museums
          > support
          > > > > center happen to make it over to the David H. Koch's Hall of Human
          > > > > Origins permanent installation, where an interactive game tells us
          > > > that in the future humans may adapt to climate change by "building
          > > > > underground cities, growing short compact bodies with curved
          > spines
          > > to better move around in tight spaces." I am not talking about
          > mermaids
          > > > and Barnum and Bailey hoaxes, were there over one hundred mermaid
          > > accounts from leading scientists of the time published in the New York
          > Times?
          > > I am talking about thousands of accounts from the likes of Moorehead,
          > > > > Webb, Dragoo, Norris, other Anthropologists, Archaeologists,
          > > > Professors, Doctors, Chief Justices and ordinary citizens. They were
          > reporting
          > > > what they saw before their own eyes not a discussion of their
          > religious
          > > and political beliefs. How do you tell someone who puts a skull over
          > > their head, fits a jawbone over their face or reports double rows of
          > teeth
          > > > > that they don't understand human anatomy? Your reasons for pulling
          > > my video are an attempt to portray me as an unsophisticated amateur
          > > that was taken in by some grand hoax. What I did was read through a
          > > series of town history, Smithsonian Ethnology and NYT reports. I was
          > not
          > > > > advocating a tricky, dangerous and unproven health cure but just
          > > > trying to share interesting information from the leading and most
          > respected
          > > > > Scientific Journals and sources of the time. Any disinterested
          > > > teenager can assemble a hundred of these accounts over a weekend
          > with the
          > > help of Google books. I have a large number of accounts that state
          > that the
          > > > > Smithsonian in fact received many of these giant skeletal remains.
          > > So, why again was my video taken down? The bottom line is that I guess
          > > > this is not an idea worth sharing because it reveals corruption and
          > > > cover-ups at an institution whose misguided actions are open for
          > anyone to see
          > > > > with a little historical detective work. Not wanting to speak with
          > > me or allow me to debate these reasons before removing the video is
          > very
          > > > > troubling. I would hope you would do me the professional courtesy
          > of
          > > > > whenever or wherever you list the reasons my talk was taken down
          > you
          > > > > also allow people to see my response. "When a well packaged web of
          > > > lies has been sold gradually to the masses over generations, the
          > truth
          > > will seem utterly preposterous and it's speaker a raving lunatic."
          > > Dresden James. Thank you,James E. Vieira"
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > http://www.facebook.com/pages/Stone-Builders-Mound-Builders-and-the-Gian\
          > ts-of-Ancient-America/556606251021542?ref=stream
          > > > >
          > > > > Susan English -- sent from my iPad
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          >
        • C TRAYLOR
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          Message 4 of 10 , Dec 26, 2012
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