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Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Underwater Ruins in Northwest Wisconsin?

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  • Pam Giese
    I saw some of the Bimini Road while snorkling in Bimini. They re also waterworn. I think that would be expected. The waterlevel of lakes and rivers in
    Message 1 of 8 , Jul 28, 2007
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      I saw some of the Bimini Road while snorkling in Bimini.  They're also waterworn.  I think that would be expected. 
       
      The waterlevel of lakes and rivers in Wisconsin have changed considerly in the past 10000 years or so.  There have been some interesting simulations of how different the terrain may have been.  And then of course, there's theories like Frank Joseph's regarding Rock Lake ---that the lake was purposely flooded to hide evidence of occupation and copper smelting...
       
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2007 12:16 PM
      Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Underwater Ruins in Northwest Wisconsin?

      Hi Pam,

      I'm not sure yet what I'll do with these photos. They're too good not
      to do something with them. The stones are water-worn but perfectly
      fitted together similar to an ancient Roman road. But why underwater?

      --- In ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com, "Pam Giese"
      <giese@...> wrote:
      >
      > Sounds interesting ---Can you post the pictures?
      >
      > Pam
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: herbswoods
      > To: ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com
      > Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 12:33 PM
      > Subject: [ancient_waterways_ society] Underwater Ruins in Northwest
      Wisconsin?
      >
      >
      > This is no joke. I was recently snorkeling in a remote waterbody in
      > Northwest Wisconsin and came across an amazing sight. On the bottom in
      > a weedy area was a perfectly laid out pavement of stones carefully
      > fitted together as if constructed by human hands but at a earlier
      > stage of technology than our own.
      >
      > It was an amazing sight and I did get photos!
      >
      > What I can't tell for sure is if this flat stone "pavement" is natural
      > or human-made. It sure looks human-made but sometimes looks can be
      > deceiving. In any case it was very intriguing and I've never seen
      > anything else like it.
      >

    • bigalemc2
      herbswoods - If they are natural, there is nothing of great interest to them. Or They are artificial, which brings up the following questions: 1. Who built
      Message 2 of 8 , Jul 28, 2007
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        herbswoods -

        If they are natural, there is nothing of great interest to them.

        Or

        They are artificial, which brings up the following questions:
        1. Who built them?
        2. Why were they built?
        3. When were they built?
        4. The who will to some degree determine the when, and/or vice versa
        5. When were they submerged?
          • After the end of the ice age*
            • This would be problematic, since they are under a lake that supposedly was formed by the retreat of the last ice age and no road-building culture existed there since then, until recent times (that we know of).
            • If they are Roman, per your impression, then they can begin to be connected to any other Roman artifacts or evidence, but if so, when was the road submerged?
            • The lake has many sister lakes in that widespread region that almost certainly have the same genesis, so whatever explanation for submerging that lake would have to be shown to have caused them also.
          • Before the last ice age*
            • This is also problematic, since any glaciation existing for thousands of years would have scoured the road, and almost certainly have destroyed it.
              • Is there any evidence of striations on the exposed surfaces?
            • Coming up with this explanation would be the least easy to float, since no one was supposed to have been there before the last ice age.
        6. You don't say where they are, and I won't press you on that at this time, but is their location possibly connected to the copper mining on the U.P.?
          • Could they have been part of a road system tied to the Mississippi and a southern route between the mines and the ocean?  (I don't know much about the era, but the preferred route to Europe would seem to have been via the St. Lawrence to the Atlantic, but that route was closed in winter during most years.  The very basis of this group, of course is that topic, and I am pretty new to it all and bow to the knowledge that is here...)
        * I refer to the ice ages not because I accept them, but as a devil's advocate.

        . . . . Steve

        - The search for answers is really a search for questions.  As one question is answered, new ones present themselves.  Like peeling an onion, each answer reveals more below, and when the last question is able to be asked, the end answer becomes obvious... Getting to that last question, though, is the real quest.
      • Susan
        Herb, Pam, Steve, All, Regardless of whether there was movement of massive amounts of glacial ice, the weight of polar ice and lowering then rising of sea
        Message 3 of 8 , Jul 29, 2007
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          Herb, Pam, Steve, All,

          Regardless of whether there was movement of massive amounts of
          glacial ice, the weight of polar ice and lowering then rising of sea
          levels in and around what we call the Great Lakes and tributaries to
          and from would still presumably be a factor.

          I have read/heard little mention of Lake Agassiz, and if anyone at
          this site has studied the phenomenom, it might be of much interest to
          the group.

          UW Madison Dr. James Scherz speaks often of past and continuing
          isostatic rebound of the Great Lakes affecting the surrounding
          waterways. See previous article Pondering the possibility of an
          ancient (possibly very ancient) road, I am looking for reason(s) why
          this structure, if of human construction, could still be underwater.
          See Post #82; halfway down I had inserted verbatum, with Dr. Scherz
          permission, part of his paper on ""Old Water Levels & Waterways
          During the Ancient Copper Mining Era (about 3000 BC to 1000 BC)".
          This would pertain to a period up to 5000 years ago, yet Dr. Scherz
          and many here are open to the possiblities of another, far earlier
          global copper/metals trade in the region.

          I lived in Superior and Fargo-Moorhead for short times a few decades
          ago--prior to my interest in such things as now takes much of my time-
          -so paid little heed to the waterways or terraine there. Please
          excuse this post if it is very elementary to others here.

          Regardless whether there was glacial movement or not, the weight and
          continuing melt of subsurface polar ice would still affect that area
          of the northern and western Great Lakes and tributaries. I don't
          know if these areas are where your particular lake is, Herb, but I am
          listing two articles I found interesting:

          http://www.und.edu/instruct/eng/fkarner/pages/rebound.htm

          "Earthscapes: The Red River Valley-Tilted Shorelines and Rebounding
          Lake Beds" (Don McCollar)
          ________________
          and from:
          http://homepages.cae.wisc.edu/~chinwu/GLE401/web/Bruce/caseone.html

          scroll down to see examples of variance in drift, sedimentation, etc.
          in an area which I recall was great trout fishing, in NW Wisconsin:

          ..."Today, dominant northwest longshore drift of from the Bad and
          Kakagon Rivers continues to feed Long Island and Chequamegon Point.
          The sediment is predominantly sand with small amounts of gravel,
          probably of glacial origin. While there is one area of erosion about
          3 km from its lakeward tip, Long Island is prograding at a rate of
          1.1 meters per year, and a series of east-west beach ridges and bog-
          filled swales are relics of previous shoreline locations. Over the
          last 200 years, Long Island has experienced periods of detachment to
          Chequamegon Point, but it eventually reestablishes its connection to
          the mainland. It is currently joined with Chequamegon Point (Bona,
          1990)."
          ___________
          Herb, It would be terrific if you could bring the photos and other
          research material you wish to share to the Ohio AAAPF conference this
          October. Pam is one of the persons helping put on this conference, I
          and other AWS members will be attending. For more information, here
          is web link and access to registration info at that site:

          http://www.aaapf.org/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=37

          Per my inquiry about Little Miami-Ft. Ancient rustic campgrounds
          prior to the conference, William Smith just emailed back that Ft.
          Ancient is about seven miles from Ft. Ancient, and he will send addl
          info later.

          Susan

          --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "herbswoods"
          <herbswoods@...> wrote:
          >
          > Hi Pam,
          >
          > I'm not sure yet what I'll do with these photos. They're too good
          not
          > to do something with them. The stones are water-worn but perfectly
          > fitted together similar to an ancient Roman road. But why
          underwater?
          >
          > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Pam Giese"
          > <giese@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Sounds interesting ---Can you post the pictures?
          > >
          > > Pam
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > From: herbswoods
          > > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
          > > Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 12:33 PM
          > > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Underwater Ruins in
          Northwest
          > Wisconsin?
          > >
          > >
          > > This is no joke. I was recently snorkeling in a remote
          waterbody in
          > > Northwest Wisconsin and came across an amazing sight. On the
          bottom in
          > > a weedy area was a perfectly laid out pavement of stones
          carefully
          > > fitted together as if constructed by human hands but at a
          earlier
          > > stage of technology than our own.
          > >
          > > It was an amazing sight and I did get photos!
          > >
          > > What I can't tell for sure is if this flat stone "pavement" is
          natural
          > > or human-made. It sure looks human-made but sometimes looks can
          be
          > > deceiving. In any case it was very intriguing and I've never
          seen
          > > anything else like it.
          > >
          >
        • Susan
          Herb, As Pam mentioned last month, and you suggested, I and others here are hoping you will post photos of the NW Wisconsin underwater paved stones--natural or
          Message 4 of 8 , Aug 16, 2007
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            Herb,

            As Pam mentioned last month, and you suggested, I and others here are
            hoping you will post photos of the NW Wisconsin underwater paved
            stones--natural or not.

            You are quite a photographer, as I note in your web sites, a couple
            of which I shall list here. Not listed here, I also see three new
            sites for 2007 on your At the Creation page:

            The Totagotic River:
            The http://www.atthecreation.com/TOGATIG/TOGA.html

            Wisconsin's Ancient Copper Mines:
            http://www.atthecreation.com/wis.anc/%20cu.mines.html

            Otherwise, if we don't hear futher from you, curiosity might get the
            best of at least one here who could end up plunging into the Wild
            Totogotic for a look-see.

            Susan

            --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Pam Giese"
            <giese@...> wrote:
            >
            > Sounds interesting ---Can you post the pictures?
            >
            > Pam
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: herbswoods
            > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 12:33 PM
            > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Underwater Ruins in
            Northwest Wisconsin?
            >
            >
            > This is no joke. I was recently snorkeling in a remote waterbody
            in
            > Northwest Wisconsin and came across an amazing sight. On the
            bottom in
            > a weedy area was a perfectly laid out pavement of stones carefully
            > fitted together as if constructed by human hands but at a earlier
            > stage of technology than our own.
            >
            > It was an amazing sight and I did get photos!
            >
            > What I can't tell for sure is if this flat stone "pavement" is
            natural
            > or human-made. It sure looks human-made but sometimes looks can be
            > deceiving. In any case it was very intriguing and I've never seen
            > anything else like it.
            >
          • herbswoods
            Hi Susan, I do plan to post a photo of the underwater stone highway that I discovered and photographed this summer in NW Wis. But as my previous post tells,
            Message 5 of 8 , Aug 17, 2007
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              Hi Susan,

              I do plan to post a photo of the underwater stone "highway" that I
              discovered and photographed this summer in NW Wis. But as my previous
              post tells, I just got back from a another trip of discovery and have
              lots to do. But I will post a photo on my website to obtain input and
              opinions from you and other members.

              Herb

              --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
              <beldingenglish@...> wrote:
              >
              > Herb,
              >
              > As Pam mentioned last month, and you suggested, I and others here are
              > hoping you will post photos of the NW Wisconsin underwater paved
              > stones--natural or not.
              >
              > You are quite a photographer, as I note in your web sites, a couple
              > of which I shall list here. Not listed here, I also see three new
              > sites for 2007 on your At the Creation page:
              >
              > The Totagotic River:
              > The http://www.atthecreation.com/TOGATIG/TOGA.html
              >
              > Wisconsin's Ancient Copper Mines:
              > http://www.atthecreation.com/wis.anc/%20cu.mines.html
              >
              > Otherwise, if we don't hear futher from you, curiosity might get the
              > best of at least one here who could end up plunging into the Wild
              > Totogotic for a look-see.
              >
              > Susan
              >
              > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Pam Giese"
              > <giese@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Sounds interesting ---Can you post the pictures?
              > >
              > > Pam
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: herbswoods
              > > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
              > > Sent: Thursday, July 26, 2007 12:33 PM
              > > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Underwater Ruins in
              > Northwest Wisconsin?
              > >
              > >
              > > This is no joke. I was recently snorkeling in a remote waterbody
              > in
              > > Northwest Wisconsin and came across an amazing sight. On the
              > bottom in
              > > a weedy area was a perfectly laid out pavement of stones carefully
              > > fitted together as if constructed by human hands but at a earlier
              > > stage of technology than our own.
              > >
              > > It was an amazing sight and I did get photos!
              > >
              > > What I can't tell for sure is if this flat stone "pavement" is
              > natural
              > > or human-made. It sure looks human-made but sometimes looks can be
              > > deceiving. In any case it was very intriguing and I've never seen
              > > anything else like it.
              > >
              >
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