Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Remains of giants along upper waters of Missouri, Mississippi?

Expand Messages
  • Susan
    All, Chris, thank you for posting and updating us on The Equinox Project, and your thoughts and concerns in regard to the recent article Ted Sojka posted re:
    Message 1 of 11 , Dec 17, 2012
    • 0 Attachment
      All, 

      Chris, thank you for posting and updating us on The Equinox Project, and your thoughts and concerns in regard to the recent article Ted Sojka posted re: the total destruction of the particular California petroglyphs.  I forwarded your post and TEP web site to several interested petroglyph preservation people and an active Facebook group in Minnesota who occasionally follow our group's posts.

      On a different matter .... a subject I have been intrigued without end that has been brought up many times under a variety of topic headings.  
      I ran across an article from a Minnesota DNR publication about giant animal skeletal excavations and a discovery within a cave in Minnesota, all along or near the present Mississippi River.  I  take liberties here picking up a four year old series of AWS posts by several members re: giants, and particularly Steve Garcia's (bigalemc2) thought-provoking 'Questions...' and things to ponder when looking at research claims, data, evidence for authenticity vs. 'fakery'.  Such as giant human (and presumably  animal skeletons).  Steve's post from 2008 and others cascading below are what i am 'replying' from rather  than starting another new topic heading.  As one of your former co-founders and co-hosts here, i hope I may feel free to take such liberties, with the intent to continue possible thought/discussion many of you have started through the years, as members.  We have many excellent multi-post themes from this group in our archives that are easily retrievable (for me), so please see some of the old posts below my current letter here,  and Steve's letter about allegedly very, very old  giant human skeletal remains he examined as a newcomer.  AWS host Vince Barrows and Steve Garcia are both engineers, both grew up near Cahokia/St. Louis and the Mississippi River.  And both inspire me to learn to think more scientifically, critically...

      What I wish to post that I ran across today is this, from a Minnesota DNR newsletter about an alleged 22,500 year old giant saber tooth cat skeleton found in the SE 'driftless' area of SE Minnesota.  I know little of this driftless region not too far from where I live that was apparently unaffected by so-called glacial displacement, though I do not know uf that would include rebound or uplift.  but even more intriguingly within that srticle, to me, was what may have been an approx. 250# or black bear-sized beaver which co-existed among modern beaver discovered approx. 10,000 years ago near the St. Paul,Minnesota  area of the Mississippi River (practically in the neighborhood of where my son and his family live---they will find this fascinating, if none of you do !)

      http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/volunteer/marapr09/megafauna_history.html

      Susan English, central Wisconsin

      --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "bigalemc2"  wrote:
       
       Susan -
       
       First of all, I see that you have learned to format your posts nicely. 
       Excellent!
       
       As to this - mention of giants - I have a bit to say, nothing
       authoritative, but maybe worth throwing in here.
       
       I am not sure what your take on this extract was (did you read the
       entire article?), but I understood this specific mention to be somewhere
       along the James River in Virginia, but it seemed to me you are saying it
       was in the upper regions of the Missouri or Mississippi.  Can you
       clarify which was intended by the author?
       
       The mention specifically of the 'upper Missouri' along with 'giants'
       brought back a personal experience:
       
       In about 1978-9, I went to a traveling circus in Lake County, Illinois,
       somewhere near Gray's Lake or Wildwood.  On the midway one of the
       exhibits was something touted as a 10-foot human skeleton.  At the time
       I was not into any of this, but it was certainly worth 25 cents or so,
       so I went in and had a look.
       
       I was a newby at such things and don't pretend that my discernment was
       un-fool-able, but for all the close examination I could garner, I swear
       the thing was legitimate.  Here is what I saw:
       
       I was expecting to see some really fake set of bones.  I was wrong.
       
       As I recall, they claimed that the bones were found somewhere in the
       upper Missouri basin.  I have a 'Steve's-mind-produced' memory from that
       time of picturing it somewhere in southern Montana or somewhere in
       Wyoming or western Nebraska.
       
       I saw a (complete, as I recall) skeleton that was seated on the floor of
       the exhibit up against what I remember as a decent replica of a cave
       wall.  The knees were drawn up toward the chest somewhat.  I do not
       recall the position of the arms.  The shin bones were LONG, close to
       twice my own.  Guesstimating the length, I would say they were around
       40-45" long.  The shoulders were at a height from the floor very close
       to the top of the knees, possibly a bit higher, possibly a bit lower,
       but certainly in proportion.  How large the skull was I don't remember,
       but did not notice it being out of proportion.
       
       I estimated the height of the person at between 9'-6" and 11'-0".  I do
       remember comparing shin lengths and torso lengths to people coming
       through the exhibit.
       
       The build of the skeleton was not robust, but was much more like a
       basketball player than a football lineman.
       
       (Later when I read Otto Muck's Secret's of Atlantis, my ears perked up
       when he said that Cromagnon man averaged 6'-6" (Michael Jordan''s
       height), and that the women averaged 6'-0", and that they sometimes
       exceeded 8 feet, I thought back to that skeleton on the midway, and I
       wondered if Cromagnon man had lived in North America.)
       
       The coloration of the bones appeared as one might expect of ones that
       had been in the earth for some time, somewhat brown, with the coloration
       seeming to be absorbed into the bones to some extent.
       
       I looked long and hard to spot any obvious - to my then untrained eyes -
       fakery.  I did not merely walk in and walk out, but spent a good 20
       minutes or so looking for flaws in what they did.  I don't recall my
       exact thoughts, but do remember coming out thinking that if it was a
       fake it sure was done so well I could not detect how they did it.
       
       Questions I had then (and still have now) were (assuming fakery):
       
           1. Did they mold the bones out of plastic?  (Answer then: that is a
       LOT of molds to create just to fake ONE skeleton!)
       
           2. Were they made from larger bones carved down? (Answer then:  The
       surface of bones is not the same as the underlying cellular structure,
       so it seemed that it would have shown up.  But I could be fooled in this
       way.)
           3. How did they keep all the bones in proportion and so well
       carved/molded?  (Answer: They would have to be really expert in anatomy,
       plus be able to size all of them up to that scale from a normal sized
       skeleton.  This was before 3D computer and CAT scans and MRIs, etc., not
       to mention tomography.  Someone would have to be expert in anatomy AND
       sculpture - not likely, but not impossible.)
           4. Motive:  Why would anyone with any of the requisite skills to fake
       that spend their time on a 25-cent midway exhibit?  Their talents and
       experience would seem to be worth a hell of a lot more in forensics or
       biology or in creating museum exhibits.
       So, Steve could have been fooled, but Steve was trying his best not to
       be fooled.  If it was fake, I got taken in.  My impression was that it
       was - even though in a carny atmosphere/presentation - somehow,
       unpredictably,  genuine.
       
       I also recall back before then having heard that sometimes there are
       real finds that science hoots at (hence groups such as the present one),
       so the discoverers are left with no other way to capitalize on their
       finds other than to exhibit them in undignified ways.
       
       Ha, Ha!  Even then, it seems, I didn't take "science's" word for it on
       what was legitimate and what was not.
       
       Well, that is it.  Was it real?  I imagine I will go to my grave not
       knowing.  But I would sure like another go at it. With what I have
       learned in the 30 years since then, I would be able to form a much
       better opinion now...
       
       . . . . Steve
       
       I was doing a search for a couple of retired geologists and ran across
       the following articles; the first was from the upper waters of the
       Missouri and Mississippi Rivers. I haven't free access to JSTOR but 
       perhaps some of you will be able to view the full Jan-Mar,1913 article
       in American Anthropologist:
       
       Petroglyphs Representing the Imprint of the Human Foot
       [Written before 1705, the pictographs are still recognizable and faintly
       visible century and a half later]:
       
       `By the Fall of James River upon Colonial Byrd's Land, there lyes a Rock
       which I have seen, about a Mile from the River, wherein are fairly
       imprest several Marks like the Footprints of a gigantic Man, each Step
       being about five Foot asunder....These they aver to be the Track of 
       their God.'
       
       M. Susan English 

    • Susan
      Almost five years following your question about the ll Jan-Mar,1913 article in American Anthropologist: Petroglyphs Representing the Imprint of the Human
      Message 2 of 11 , Dec 17, 2012
      • 0 Attachment
        Almost five years following your question about the 'll Jan-Mar,1913 article
         in American Anthropologist:
         
        "Petroglyphs Representing the Imprint of the Human Foot"

        Here is the link, reprinted in 2009:

        http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1525/aa.1913.15.1.02a00030/abstract



      • C TRAYLOR
        Very interesting: That area, the falls, in 1711 the Crown tried to push the frontier westward. From England, about six hundred Huguenot refugees in three
        Message 3 of 11 , Dec 18, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          Very interesting:  That area, the falls, in 1711 the Crown tried to push the frontier westward.  From England, about six hundred Huguenot refugees in three ships from France were placed on the land between the fork of the river and above "falls."
           
          Important to the petroglyph subject:  This area had been an Indian town. 
           
          Within a few years the Huguenots learned of their companions in Charleston, SC, and slowly all relocated.  At about this time, the Huguenots of Charleston received their first ordained minister ... expelled from Calle, France..  Huguenots were pro-testants, protestants by faith, expelled by the Catholic king. 
           
          The river banks either side of the Falls rise about 50 feet to a plane, and then was wooded. It tends to be wooded today, even with homes in that area. 
           
          It might be an interesting project for locals of that area to try to locate these sites. 
           
          To add to the disruptive impact, during the Civil War there was a prisoner of war camp in the middle of the falls, that was near present downtown Richmond.  The "falls" is a rocky rapids over big boulders which ended the travel by ships.  A "ship" being designed for ocean use, a "boat" designed not for oceon use. 

          Cal 
          -- ================================

        • Ted Sojka
          My hometown of New Rochelle was settled by Hugenots who were excellent masons that built chruches, stone steeples, and some amazing roads across tidal areas
          Message 4 of 11 , Dec 18, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            My hometown of New Rochelle was settled by Hugenots who were excellent masons that built chruches, stone steeples, and some amazing roads across tidal areas that have been there since the 1600's though inundated by incoming and outgoing tides for hundreds of years.  Though they maintained good relation with the native population, there was always some cause for fear, and these roads went to small islands just off shore a few hundred yards where the governor of the colony lived.  

            We had many officials from the sister city in La Rochelle visit over the years when I lived there.  My parents place had a stone wall that crossed several properties in the neighborhood that were dry laid with no mortar and they were still together when I was a child when we played on them daily. 

            Thanks for the information, Cal
            ted
            On Dec 18, 2012, at 6:19 AM, C TRAYLOR wrote:

             

            Very interesting:  That area, the falls, in 1711 the Crown tried to push the frontier westward.  From England, about six hundred Huguenot refugees in three ships from France were placed on the land between the fork of the river and above "falls."
             
            Important to the petroglyph subject:  This area had been an Indian town. 
             
            Within a few years the Huguenots learned of their companions in Charleston, SC, and slowly all relocated.  At about this time, the Huguenots of Charleston received their first ordained minister ... expelled from Calle, France..  Huguenots were pro-testants, protestants by faith, expelled by the Catholic king. 
             
            The river banks either side of the Falls rise about 50 feet to a plane, and then was wooded. It tends to be wooded today, even with homes in that area. 
             
            It might be an interesting project for locals of that area to try to locate these sites. 
             
            To add to the disruptive impact, during the Civil War there was a prisoner of war camp in the middle of the falls, that was near present downtown Richmond.  The "falls" is a rocky rapids over big boulders which ended the travel by ships.  A "ship" being designed for ocean use, a "boat" designed not for oceon use. 

            Cal 
            -- ================================



          • trayloroo
            In the Internet select IMAGES enter --- Giant Skeletons Found. Cal ... All, Chris, thank you for posting and updating us on The Equinox Project, and your
            Message 5 of 11 , Dec 18, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              In the Internet select IMAGES enter --- Giant Skeletons Found.

              Cal

              ==========================

              --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan" wrote:

              All,
              Chris, thank you for posting and updating us on The Equinox Project, and
              your thoughts and concerns in regard to the recent article Ted Sojka
              posted re: the total destruction of the particular California
              petroglyphs. I forwarded your post and TEP web site to several
              interested petroglyph preservation people and an active Facebook group
              in Minnesota who occasionally follow our group's posts.
              On a different matter .... a subject I have been intrigued without end
              that has been brought up many times under a variety of topic headings.
              I ran across an article from a Minnesota DNR publication about giant
              animal skeletal excavations and a discovery within a cave in Minnesota,
              all along or near the present Mississippi River. I take liberties here
              picking up a four year old series of AWS posts by several members re:
              giants, and particularly Steve Garcia's (bigalemc2) thought-provoking
              'Questions...' and things to ponder when looking at research claims,
              data, evidence for authenticity vs. 'fakery'. Such as giant human (and
              presumably animal skeletons). Steve's post from 2008 and others
              cascading below are what i am 'replying' from rather than starting
              another new topic heading. As one of your former co-founders and
              co-hosts here, i hope I may feel free to take such liberties, with the
              intent to continue possible thought/discussion many of you have started
              through the years, as members. We have many excellent multi-post themes
              from this group in our archives that are easily retrievable (for me), so
              please see some of the old posts below my current letter here, and
              Steve's letter about allegedly very, very old giant human skeletal
              remains he examined as a newcomer. AWS host Vince Barrows and Steve
              Garcia are both engineers, both grew up near Cahokia/St. Louis and the
              Mississippi River. And both inspire me to learn to think more
              scientifically, critically...
              What I wish to post that I ran across today is this, from a Minnesota
              DNR newsletter about an alleged 22,500 year old giant saber tooth cat
              skeleton found in the SE 'driftless' area of SE Minnesota. I know
              little of this driftless region not too far from where I live that was
              apparently unaffected by so-called glacial displacement, though I do not
              know uf that would include rebound or uplift. but even more
              intriguingly within that srticle, to me, was what may have been an
              approx. 250# or black bear-sized beaver which co-existed among modern
              beaver discovered approx. 10,000 years ago near the St. Paul,Minnesota
              area of the Mississippi River (practically in the neighborhood of where
              my son and his family live---they will find this fascinating, if none of
              you do !)
              http://www.dnr.state.mn.us/volunteer/marapr09/megafauna_history.html
              Susan English, central Wisconsin
              --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "bigalemc2" wrote:
              Susan - First of all, I see that you have learned to format your posts
              nicely. Excellent! As to this - mention of giants - I have a bit to
              say, nothing authoritative, but maybe worth throwing in here. I am not
              sure what your take on this extract was (did you read the entire
              article?), but I understood this specific mention to be somewhere along
              the James River in Virginia, but it seemed to me you are saying it was
              in the upper regions of the Missouri or Mississippi. Can you clarify
              which was intended by the author? The mention specifically of the
              'upper Missouri' along with 'giants' brought back a personal experience:
              In about 1978-9, I went to a traveling circus in Lake County, Illinois,
              somewhere near Gray's Lake or Wildwood. On the midway one of the
              exhibits was something touted as a 10-foot human skeleton. At the time
              I was not into any of this, but it was certainly worth 25 cents or so,
              so I went in and had a look. I was a newby at such things and don't
              pretend that my discernment was un-fool-able, but for all the close
              examination I could garner, I swear the thing was legitimate. Here is
              what I saw: I was expecting to see some really fake set of bones. I
              was wrong. As I recall, they claimed that the bones were found
              somewhere in the upper Missouri basin. I have a 'Steve's-mind-produced'
              memory from that time of picturing it somewhere in southern Montana or
              somewhere in Wyoming or western Nebraska. I saw a (complete, as I
              recall) skeleton that was seated on the floor of the exhibit up against
              what I remember as a decent replica of a cave wall. The knees were
              drawn up toward the chest somewhat. I do not recall the position of the
              arms. The shin bones were LONG, close to twice my own. Guesstimating
              the length, I would say they were around 40-45" long. The shoulders
              were at a height from the floor very close to the top of the knees,
              possibly a bit higher, possibly a bit lower, but certainly in
              proportion. How large the skull was I don't remember, but did not
              notice it being out of proportion. I estimated the height of the person
              at between 9'-6" and 11'-0". I do remember comparing shin lengths and
              torso lengths to people coming through the exhibit. The build of the
              skeleton was not robust, but was much more like a basketball player than
              a football lineman. (Later when I read Otto Muck's Secret's of
              Atlantis, my ears perked up when he said that Cromagnon man averaged
              6'-6" (Michael Jordan''s height), and that the women averaged 6'-0", and
              that they sometimes exceeded 8 feet, I thought back to that skeleton on
              the midway, and I wondered if Cromagnon man had lived in North America.)
              The coloration of the bones appeared as one might expect of ones that
              had been in the earth for some time, somewhat brown, with the coloration
              seeming to be absorbed into the bones to some extent. I looked long and
              hard to spot any obvious - to my then untrained eyes - fakery. I did
              not merely walk in and walk out, but spent a good 20 minutes or so
              looking for flaws in what they did. I don't recall my exact thoughts,
              but do remember coming out thinking that if it was a fake it sure was
              done so well I could not detect how they did it. Questions I had then
              (and still have now) were (assuming fakery): 1. Did they mold the
              bones out of plastic? (Answer then: that is a LOT of molds to create
              just to fake ONE skeleton!) 2. Were they made from larger bones
              carved down? (Answer then: The surface of bones is not the same as the
              underlying cellular structure, so it seemed that it would have shown up.
              But I could be fooled in this way.) 3. How did they keep all the
              bones in proportion and so well carved/molded? (Answer: They would have
              to be really expert in anatomy, plus be able to size all of them up to
              that scale from a normal sized skeleton. This was before 3D computer
              and CAT scans and MRIs, etc., not to mention tomography. Someone would
              have to be expert in anatomy AND sculpture - not likely, but not
              impossible.) 4. Motive: Why would anyone with any of the requisite
              skills to fake that spend their time on a 25-cent midway exhibit? Their
              talents and experience would seem to be worth a hell of a lot more in
              forensics or biology or in creating museum exhibits. So, Steve could
              have been fooled, but Steve was trying his best not to be fooled. If it
              was fake, I got taken in. My impression was that it was - even though
              in a carny atmosphere/presentation - somehow, unpredictably, genuine.
              I also recall back before then having heard that sometimes there are
              real finds that science hoots at (hence groups such as the present one),
              so the discoverers are left with no other way to capitalize on their
              finds other than to exhibit them in undignified ways. Ha, Ha! Even
              then, it seems, I didn't take "science's" word for it on what was
              legitimate and what was not. Well, that is it. Was it real? I imagine
              I will go to my grave not knowing. But I would sure like another go at
              it. With what I have learned in the 30 years since then, I would be able
              to form a much better opinion now... . . . . Steve I was doing a
              search for a couple of retired geologists and ran across the following
              articles; the first was from the upper waters of the Missouri and
              Mississippi Rivers. I haven't free access to JSTOR but perhaps some of
              you will be able to view the full Jan-Mar,1913 article in American
              Anthropologist: Petroglyphs Representing the Imprint of the Human Foot
              [Written before 1705, the pictographs are still recognizable and faintly
              visible century and a half later]: `By the Fall of James River upon
              Colonial Byrd's Land, there lyes a Rock which I have seen, about a Mile
              from the River, wherein are fairly imprest several Marks like the
              Footprints of a gigantic Man, each Step being about five Foot
              asunder....These they aver to be the Track of their God.' M. Susan
              English
            Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.