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Azores

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  • kbs2244
    I get a kick out of how various places, including the entire Western Hemisphere, were discovered when they were shown on maps the discovers were using and
    Message 1 of 10 , Nov 15, 2012
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      I get a kick out of how various places, including the entire Western Hemisphere, were "discovered" when they were shown on maps the "discovers" were using and often were populated.
      That population pretty clearly had "discovered" the place before the historical "discovers."

      Columbus is a classic case.
      He had maps.
      He mentions them in his logs.
    • Ted Sojka
      A wonderful point! As Charles M Russell the artist from Montana said more or less, the only true American was the native, he had one god that was the sun, no
      Message 2 of 10 , Nov 15, 2012
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        A wonderful point!  As Charles M Russell the artist from Montana said more or less, the only true American was the native, he had one god that was the sun, no Sunday, as all days belonged to the creator, no church as the outdoors was his worship house, and their only book was nature, but they knew all it's pages.

        He is the only statue of an artist in the capitol rotunda with all the other politicians so honored there.  I have always enjoyed his letters in a book  called "Paper Talk" , a collection of his illustrated letters to friends through his career.  

        He painted scenes along the Missouri and the Judith rivers in Montana and one of his paintings, is the "Indians Discovering Lewis and Clark"!   He also has a huge mural in the statehouse of Montana called the Flat Head Indians Meeting Lewis and Clark".  

        Maybe perspective comes easier to artists?

        ted
        On Nov 15, 2012, at 11:44 AM, kbs2244 wrote:

         

        I get a kick out of how various places, including the entire Western Hemisphere, were "discovered" when they were shown on maps the "discovers" were using and often were populated.
        That population pretty clearly had "discovered" the place before the historical "discovers."

        Columbus is a classic case.
        He had maps.
        He mentions them in his logs.


      • william smith
        Hi Ted   Glad to hear from you and the improvement in your health. If we listen to the people on shore when our ship lands we can learn a lot. The true
        Message 3 of 10 , Nov 15, 2012
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          Hi Ted
            Glad to hear from you and the improvement in your health. If we listen to the people on shore when our ship lands we can learn a lot. The true explorers of the new lands respected the existing population and their religious beliefs without trying to convert them. Our history is not a good story in many journeys from the old to the new. Their motives is what made them bad and greed overcame good Christian beliefs or Native American beliefs as well.
          William

          --- On Thu, 11/15/12, Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...> wrote:

          From: Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...>
          Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Azores
          To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Thursday, November 15, 2012, 1:10 PM

           
          A wonderful point!  As Charles M Russell the artist from Montana said more or less, the only true American was the native, he had one god that was the sun, no Sunday, as all days belonged to the creator, no church as the outdoors was his worship house, and their only book was nature, but they knew all it's pages.

          He is the only statue of an artist in the capitol rotunda with all the other politicians so honored there.  I have always enjoyed his letters in a book  called "Paper Talk" , a collection of his illustrated letters to friends through his career.  

          He painted scenes along the Missouri and the Judith rivers in Montana and one of his paintings, is the "Indians Discovering Lewis and Clark"!   He also has a huge mural in the statehouse of Montana called the Flat Head Indians Meeting Lewis and Clark".  

          Maybe perspective comes easier to artists?

          ted
          On Nov 15, 2012, at 11:44 AM, kbs2244 wrote:

           
          I get a kick out of how various places, including the entire Western Hemisphere, were "discovered" when they were shown on maps the "discovers" were using and often were populated.
          That population pretty clearly had "discovered" the place before the historical "discovers."

          Columbus is a classic case.
          He had maps.
          He mentions them in his logs.


        • william smith
          A very good point. Many books can and have been published about the falce information we were not given in school. Much of this is being corrected, however it
          Message 4 of 10 , Nov 15, 2012
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            A very good point. Many books can and have been published about the falce information we were not given in school. Much of this is being corrected, however it takes a long time for wounds to heal.
              Columbus was Portuguese - Proven with DNA and other work by the late Dr. DaSilva. Columbus had to keep two sets of log books. One for the Spanish and Queen Isabelle and one for the Portuguese crew of two of his ships in order for the Portuguese to not mutny. Had they not saw a land bird a few days before land the Portuguese would have aborted Mr Columbus and turned their ships toward the north west to the cod fishing waters and land they had mapped. Columbus so called sailed to the west to find China. He was 940 miles south of his latitude when he saw land. He never found the USA mainland in his 4 voyages. I think this was because the Portuguese refused to sail with him after his first voyage. His second voyage had a cartographor (Ponce DeLeon) who made maps but did not continue with Christopher in his later voyages.
              In talking to the late DaSilva, most of the truth is hidden in Rome. (Vatigan). It may come out one day just like the current investigation of our CIA and the scrambling of its leaders. I will bet you the truth will only be known when the rats are gone.


            --- On Thu, 11/15/12, kbs2244 <kbs2244@...> wrote:

            From: kbs2244 <kbs2244@...>
            Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Azores
            To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Thursday, November 15, 2012, 12:44 PM

             
            I get a kick out of how various places, including the entire Western Hemisphere, were "discovered" when they were shown on maps the "discovers" were using and often were populated.
            That population pretty clearly had "discovered" the place before the historical "discovers."

            Columbus is a classic case.
            He had maps.
            He mentions them in his logs.

          • C TRAYLOR
            Columbus as a Child worked in a map room, or store, or cartographer shop or ... Is that right? -- Cal * * ** *This message is in English, thank our veterans *
            Message 5 of 10 , Nov 15, 2012
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              Columbus as a Child worked in a map room, or store, or cartographer shop or ... Is that right?

              -- 
                   Cal  
               

              This message is in English, thank our veterans

              for keeping the front lines .... over there.


            • william smith
              Hi Cal   I am not sure of Columbus early activities. I have heard that he was saved at sea by Portuguese fisherman in his early life. I also heard he was
              Message 6 of 10 , Nov 15, 2012
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                Hi Cal
                  I am not sure of Columbus early activities. I have heard that he was saved at sea by Portuguese fisherman in his early life. I also heard he was rejected by Queen Isabelle on his first attempt to get funding for his first voyage. He then went to a bar and received a map from Michael Cort real that showed the eastern shore of the USA and the cod fish. When he showed this to the queen she supported his voyage.
                  It has been speculated that as a young man he spent a lot of time hearing the stories of the returning cod fishermen. As fisherman they were relunctent to tell and show where they were fishing. We may better understand the explorers to the new world before Columbus if we understood the when, where, why and what he received from his menters.
                Where did he get a compass?
                Why did he keep log books?
                Where did he learn about the round earth?
                Who did he associate with?
                What school of navigation did he go to?
                Why did he live near the same city in Portugal as the Cort reals?
                Was the name of his Portuguese child hood city (Altamora)?
                Was Altamora the home town of Josh Cort real 20 years before Columbus?
                Why could he not hold a crew together more than one voyage at a time?
                   I know Dr. DaSilvas wife worked with him in his last book (Christopher Columbus was Portuguese) and a lot of research material has been gathered. If she shares this information we may be able to answer many questions that seem to cast light on the real Columbus.
                William

                --- On Thu, 11/15/12, C TRAYLOR <trayloroo@...> wrote:

                From: C TRAYLOR <trayloroo@...>
                Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Azores
                To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Thursday, November 15, 2012, 5:50 PM

                 
                Columbus as a Child worked in a map room, or store, or cartographer shop or ... Is that right?

                -- 
                     Cal  
                 
                This message is in English, thank our veterans
                for keeping the front lines .... over there.

              • William Conner
                Reply to William Smith, re. Columbus: I have a copy of the 1942 book about Columbus Admiral of the Ocean Sea by admiral Samuel E. Morrison.  The book covers
                Message 7 of 10 , Nov 15, 2012
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                  Reply to William Smith, re. Columbus:
                   
                  I have a copy of the 1942 book about Columbus "Admiral of the Ocean Sea" by admiral Samuel E. Morrison.  The book covers the life of Columbus as well as any other I've ever read.  Years ago I had another copy and sold it to a dealer for $50.  My asking price for my remaining copy is $200.   You could get answers to your question from this book.  No doubt some libraries have a copy of this book you could check out to read.  You will find that if you read this book, many of your questions will be answered.
                   
                  William Conner,
                  Columbus, OH


                  From: william smith <wmsmithrock1@...>
                  To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Thu, November 15, 2012 6:40:11 PM
                  Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Azores

                   

                  Hi Cal
                    I am not sure of Columbus early activities. I have heard that he was saved at sea by Portuguese fisherman in his early life. I also heard he was rejected by Queen Isabelle on his first attempt to get funding for his first voyage. He then went to a bar and received a map from Michael Cort real that showed the eastern shore of the USA and the cod fish. When he showed this to the queen she supported his voyage.
                    It has been speculated that as a young man he spent a lot of time hearing the stories of the returning cod fishermen. As fisherman they were relunctent to tell and show where they were fishing. We may better understand the explorers to the new world before Columbus if we understood the when, where, why and what he received from his menters.
                  Where did he get a compass?
                  Why did he keep log books?
                  Where did he learn about the round earth?
                  Who did he associate with?
                  What school of navigation did he go to?
                  Why did he live near the same city in Portugal as the Cort reals?
                  Was the name of his Portuguese child hood city (Altamora)?
                  Was Altamora the home town of Josh Cort real 20 years before Columbus?
                  Why could he not hold a crew together more than one voyage at a time?
                     I know Dr. DaSilvas wife worked with him in his last book (Christopher Columbus was Portuguese) and a lot of research material has been gathered. If she shares this information we may be able to answer many questions that seem to cast light on the real Columbus.
                  William

                  --- On Thu, 11/15/12, C TRAYLOR <trayloroo@...> wrote:

                  From: C TRAYLOR <trayloroo@...>
                  Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Azores
                  To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Thursday, November 15, 2012, 5:50 PM

                   
                  Columbus as a Child worked in a map room, or store, or cartographer shop or ... Is that right?

                  -- 
                       Cal  
                   
                  This message is in English, thank our veterans
                  for keeping the front lines .... over there.

                • william smith
                  Hi Bill   Thanks for the info and offer for a book about Columbus. I am not to interested in Columbus history because he never set foot on USA mainland in his
                  Message 8 of 10 , Nov 16, 2012
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                    Hi Bill
                      Thanks for the info and offer for a book about Columbus. I am not to interested in Columbus history because he never set foot on USA mainland in his 4 voyages. Many trips were made from Europe to America before Columbus.

                    --- On Thu, 11/15/12, William Conner <conner6343@...> wrote:

                    From: William Conner <conner6343@...>
                    Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Azores
                    To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Thursday, November 15, 2012, 10:55 PM

                     
                    Reply to William Smith, re. Columbus:
                     
                    I have a copy of the 1942 book about Columbus "Admiral of the Ocean Sea" by admiral Samuel E. Morrison.  The book covers the life of Columbus as well as any other I've ever read.  Years ago I had another copy and sold it to a dealer for $50.  My asking price for my remaining copy is $200.   You could get answers to your question from this book.  No doubt some libraries have a copy of this book you could check out to read.  You will find that if you read this book, many of your questions will be answered.
                     
                    William Conner,
                    Columbus, OH


                    From: william smith <wmsmithrock1@...>
                    To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thu, November 15, 2012 6:40:11 PM
                    Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Azores

                     
                    Hi Cal
                      I am not sure of Columbus early activities. I have heard that he was saved at sea by Portuguese fisherman in his early life. I also heard he was rejected by Queen Isabelle on his first attempt to get funding for his first voyage. He then went to a bar and received a map from Michael Cort real that showed the eastern shore of the USA and the cod fish. When he showed this to the queen she supported his voyage.
                      It has been speculated that as a young man he spent a lot of time hearing the stories of the returning cod fishermen. As fisherman they were relunctent to tell and show where they were fishing. We may better understand the explorers to the new world before Columbus if we understood the when, where, why and what he received from his menters.
                    Where did he get a compass?
                    Why did he keep log books?
                    Where did he learn about the round earth?
                    Who did he associate with?
                    What school of navigation did he go to?
                    Why did he live near the same city in Portugal as the Cort reals?
                    Was the name of his Portuguese child hood city (Altamora)?
                    Was Altamora the home town of Josh Cort real 20 years before Columbus?
                    Why could he not hold a crew together more than one voyage at a time?
                       I know Dr. DaSilvas wife worked with him in his last book (Christopher Columbus was Portuguese) and a lot of research material has been gathered. If she shares this information we may be able to answer many questions that seem to cast light on the real Columbus.
                    William

                    --- On Thu, 11/15/12, C TRAYLOR <trayloroo@...> wrote:

                    From: C TRAYLOR <trayloroo@...>
                    Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Azores
                    To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Thursday, November 15, 2012, 5:50 PM

                     
                    Columbus as a Child worked in a map room, or store, or cartographer shop or ... Is that right?

                    -- 
                         Cal  
                     
                    This message is in English, thank our veterans
                    for keeping the front lines .... over there.

                  • kbs2244
                    Since we have gotten off track and onto Columbus……….. It is true that he favored the Portuguese . He had made trips into the North Atlantic around
                    Message 9 of 10 , Nov 16, 2012
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                      Since we have gotten off track and onto Columbus………..
                      It is true that he favored the Portuguese .
                      He had made trips into the North Atlantic around Iceland and Greenland for Henry the Navigator.
                      I believe he got north of the Artic Circle.

                      He first attempted to get Henry's backing for his westward trip.
                      But in perhaps the worst case of bad timing in Western History, the day of his appointment to see the King was the day that the expedition that went around the Cape of Good Hope sailed back into port.

                      Just a little bit of excitement in town.

                      Poor Columbus was lost in the news that we can get to the spices by going around Africa.
                      With his appointment canceled, he had to go to the competition in Madrid.
                    • Bill
                      Henry the navigator was born in 1394 and died in 1460, He was the highest in command of the Knights of Christ. Christopher Columbus was born in 1451 and died
                      Message 10 of 10 , Nov 16, 2012
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                        Henry the navigator was born in 1394 and died in 1460, He was the highest in command of the Knights of Christ. Christopher Columbus was born in 1451 and died in 1506.
                        Are you saying that Christopher was only 9 years old when he was sailing for Henry?
                        I have not read where Christopher ever attended the school of navigation which was founded by Henry. I have read where Henry made trips in his younger years to Arabia where he gathered much sailing knowledge related to navigation. The Caravel ship design which allowed sailing into the wind, the design of fish traps to catch cod at high tide, the lodestone compass which allowed reading longitude position by measuring magnetic declination.
                        Evidence of this type of navigation is available in the USA, including the first maps that showed longitude markings and the compass rose were from Portugal.
                        If this information is off track and not the subject of this web site I need an explanation?


                        --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "kbs2244" <kbs2244@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Since we have gotten off track and onto Columbus………..
                        > It is true that he favored the Portuguese .
                        > He had made trips into the North Atlantic around Iceland and Greenland for Henry the Navigator.
                        > I believe he got north of the Artic Circle.
                        >
                        > He first attempted to get Henry's backing for his westward trip.
                        > But in perhaps the worst case of bad timing in Western History, the day of his appointment to see the King was the day that the expedition that went around the Cape of Good Hope sailed back into port.
                        >
                        > Just a little bit of excitement in town.
                        >
                        > Poor Columbus was lost in the news that we can get to the spices by going around Africa.
                        > With his appointment canceled, he had to go to the competition in Madrid.
                        >
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