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Re: "The American Discovery of Europe"

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  • Rick Osmon
    Pam, As always, your insights are of extreme value. But the other end of that stick has some weight, too. Any diffusion, visitiation, trade or general contact
    Message 1 of 7 , Jul 13, 2007
      Pam,

      As always, your insights are of extreme value. But the other end of that
      stick has some weight, too. Any diffusion, visitiation, trade or general
      contact between the New and the Old would have been initiated by
      sailors, primarily for the purpose of trade. That may have been at the
      behest of the heads of state, but it was the sailors who actually went
      and they themselves may not have even been Egyptian. It would have been
      the sailors' beliefs (and genes) that diffused, not the state religion
      or royal blood. It was those sailors who knew how to traverse the seas,
      not the royal priests or Pharoe.

      Even up through the 18th century ce, sailors and land traders were very
      reticent about there routes, maps, trading partners, and navigational
      tools (e.g., French fur traders in Canada and Upper Midwest). The
      ancient Romans wanted Archimedes taken alive for his understanding of
      things navigational (and his knowledge of astronomy) even though he,
      personally, had been one of the biggest pains the Roman military had
      ever experienced. Capturing Portugese maps was a major priority for
      sailors of many other countries for more than a century and continued
      even after Lisbon was shaken to the ground.

      Keeping those "trade secrets" was the only way to maintain an advantage
      over your trading or military competitors.

      Sirius had significant religous importance for the Egyptians and that
      contributed greatly to the star's importance there, probabaly much
      moreso than its importance to navigation. The most difficult thing to
      export is religous belief and doing so successfully is usually the
      result of swinging a sword rather than trading stories, foodstuffs, or
      baubles. Sirius, even though it is a bright star and thus more easily
      seen and identified than some others, isn't always positioned all that
      well (i.e., close to the moon) for use in celestial navigation.

      Other evidence (e.g., the "cocaine mummies", tobacco, maize in ancient
      Egypt) seem pretty strong indicators of trans-Atlantic trade in that
      time. But it doesn't mean the Egyptians themselves did the sailing. That
      was more likely the predecessors of the Pheonicians, Mauritanians, and
      Senegalese. Find evidence of Poesidan worship on this side of the
      Atlantic, particularly along the coasts, and you'll find the major
      overseas trading ports of that era.

      Warm Regards

      Oz

      --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Pam Giese"
      <giese@...> wrote:
      >
      > Hi Vince and all ---
      >
      > Your point about Forbes linking "america to egypt in the new world is
      biased toward egyptian influece of everything" is something that's been
      bothering me of late...There's a lot of documentation around which stars
      were of major influence to the egyptians ---Sirius was of prime
      influence. If the egyptians travelled to the New World AND had a major
      influence here, you'd expect to see the same major stars (esp Sirius)
      showing up as alignments in the New World. This would be key evidence
      for navigational theories, afterall, if there was a diffusionist global
      navigation practice, there would be global navigation alignments or
      reference points. I've yet to see anything major referencing Sirius in
      this hemisphere. Given that there were active civilizations at similar
      lattitudes, I find this strange. It would seem to imply that there
      wasn't a sharing of archeoastronomical knowledge, yet this seems to have
      been a primary science in these culture. I think this is a shaky area
      of the diffusionist argument.
      >
      > Pam
      >
      > You wrote :
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: Vincent Barrows
      > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 9:11 AM
      > Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] "The American Discovery of
      Europe"
      >
      >
      >
      > Jack Forbes claims that the Bosnian Pyramid is "imaginary" in order
      to keep the false pretense that the egyptian pyramids are the biggest.
      His makes accusations about all inscriptions from Bosnian Pyramids as
      being modern fakes. Sound Familiar? He also says that all work on the
      pyramid being due to natural forces or WW1 soldiers. He also rejects the
      dates of 12000 years ago and says that the people lived in bosnia
      beginning 5000 years ago, without any evidence to support his claim. His
      book entitled "The American Discovery of Europe" links america to egypt
      in the new world is biased toward egyptian influence of everything.
      >
      >
      > minnesotastan minnesotastan@... wrote:
      > Has anyone read this book? (University of Illinois Press, 2007)
      >
      > The author is Jack D. Forbes, and an advertising blurb in this
      month's
      > Atlantic magazine says "Forbes makes an unusual and fascinating
      > contribution to the story of the New and Old Worlds and the links
      > between them, questioning in a welcome way the truth and
      ideological
      > sway of orthodox history."
      >
      > Sounds like prime material for diffusionists. The book is not
      > available in our library system. Has anyone in this group read it,
      > and can you offer either a review or a comment?
      >
      > Thanks in advance,
      >
      > Stan
      >
      > p.s. - Rick Osmon, maybe you should interview this author
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      ------------------------------------------------------------------------\
      ------
      > Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
      > Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at
      Yahoo! Games.
      >
    • Vincent Barrows
      Hi Pam and All; Stars of influence in the legends and mythology are very interesting connection in relating cultures. The site below shows one of my favorite
      Message 2 of 7 , Jul 13, 2007
        Hi Pam and All;
        Stars of influence in the legends and mythology are very interesting connection in relating cultures. The site below shows one of my favorite concepts that the stars were also incorporated into burial sites called Barrows as mirrors of the constallation images.
         
        Perhaps the "Barrows" from Europe and Egypt had the pre-linean concept of "What is above is also below" engineered into their sites.  What better way to incorporate burials into these mounds that are made to show constallations?
         
        I think that Forbes wanted to make it seem like Egypt is the biggest pyramid. I saw the photos of the Bosnian Pyramid on many sites and movies (check out you-tube). That bosnian pyramid is an amazing and recent discovery. It is disturbing that still today Forbes immediately wento on the attack of the Archeologists working there on his website. He used his strong backing in Egyptian archaology to downplay the significance of the Bosnian Pyramid. I think it is wrong to so quickly box any discovery without carefully considering all evidence.
         
        Vince
        Pam Giese <giese@...> wrote:
        Hi Vince  and all ---
         
        Your point about Forbes linking "america to egypt in the new world is biased toward egyptian influece of everything"  is something that's been bothering me of late...There' s a lot of documentation around which stars were of major influence to the egyptians ---Sirius was of prime influence.  If the egyptians travelled to the New World AND had a major influence here, you'd expect to see the same major stars (esp Sirius) showing up as alignments in the New World. This would be key evidence for navigational theories, afterall, if there was a diffusionist global navigation practice, there would be global navigation alignments or reference points.   I've yet to see anything major referencing Sirius in this hemisphere.  Given that there were active civilizations at similar lattitudes, I find this strange.  It would seem to imply that there wasn't a sharing of archeoastronomical knowledge, yet this seems to have been a primary science in these culture.  I think this is a shaky area of the diffusionist argument.
         
        Pam
         
        You wrote :
        ----- Original Message -----
        Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 9:11 AM
        Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_ society] "The American Discovery of Europe"

        Jack Forbes claims that the Bosnian Pyramid is "imaginary" in order to keep the false pretense that the egyptian pyramids are the biggest. His makes accusations about all inscriptions from Bosnian Pyramids as being modern fakes. Sound Familiar? He also says that all work on the pyramid being due to natural forces or WW1 soldiers. He also rejects the dates of 12000 years ago and says that the people lived in bosnia beginning 5000 years ago, without any evidence to support his claim. His book entitled "The American Discovery of Europe" links america to egypt in the new world is biased toward egyptian influence of everything.
         
         
         minnesotastan <minnesotastan@ yahoo.com> wrote:
        Has anyone read this book? (University of Illinois Press, 2007)

        The author is Jack D. Forbes, and an advertising blurb in this month's
        Atlantic magazine says "Forbes makes an unusual and fascinating
        contribution to the story of the New and Old Worlds and the links
        between them, questioning in a welcome way the truth and ideological
        sway of orthodox history."

        Sounds like prime material for diffusionists. The book is not
        available in our library system. Has anyone in this group read it,
        and can you offer either a review or a comment?

        Thanks in advance,

        Stan

        p.s. - Rick Osmon, maybe you should interview this author



        Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
        Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.


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      • Pam Giese
        Hi Vince, Rick and All, Thanks for the links on the Barrows as star maps. It reminds me of John Mitchell s theory that some of the North American animal
        Message 3 of 7 , Jul 14, 2007
          Hi Vince, Rick and All,
           
          Thanks for the links on the Barrows as star maps.  It reminds me of John Mitchell's theory that some of the North American animal effigy mound groups actually represented constellations.
           
          I also think there is a connection between the Barrows from Europoe and our "mounds".  When I visited Avebury Circle I was amazed that it was surrounded by a walled enclosure and an interior
          moat --just like Newark Circle.
           
          The Bosnian pyramid controversy reminds me of one time when I was visiting Aztalan with my mother.  We were standing on the "temple mound" and looking at the landscape.  The area is surrounded by drumlins and other hill-like glacial features.  My mother pointed to a high "hill" just a couple hundred yards away and said "You know, I wouldn't put my main temple here, I would put it there,  on the highest ground around."  And at that point we because aware of how many "natural" features maybe were not so natural afterall or that the site may have been more inclusive of its surroundings and not just limited to area within the stockade.
           
          Pam
           
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Friday, July 13, 2007 2:06 PM
          Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] "The American Discovery of Europe"

          Hi Pam and All;
          Stars of influence in the legends and mythology are very interesting connection in relating cultures. The site below shows one of my favorite concepts that the stars were also incorporated into burial sites called Barrows as mirrors of the constallation images.
           
          Perhaps the "Barrows" from Europe and Egypt had the pre-linean concept of "What is above is also below" engineered into their sites.  What better way to incorporate burials into these mounds that are made to show constallations?
           
          I think that Forbes wanted to make it seem like Egypt is the biggest pyramid. I saw the photos of the Bosnian Pyramid on many sites and movies (check out you-tube). That bosnian pyramid is an amazing and recent discovery. It is disturbing that still today Forbes immediately wento on the attack of the Archeologists working there on his website. He used his strong backing in Egyptian archaology to downplay the significance of the Bosnian Pyramid. I think it is wrong to so quickly box any discovery without carefully considering all evidence.
           
          Vince
          Pam Giese <giese@insightbb. com> wrote:
          Hi Vince  and all ---
           
          Your point about Forbes linking "america to egypt in the new world is biased toward egyptian influece of everything"  is something that's been bothering me of late...There' s a lot of documentation around which stars were of major influence to the egyptians ---Sirius was of prime influence.  If the egyptians travelled to the New World AND had a major influence here, you'd expect to see the same major stars (esp Sirius) showing up as alignments in the New World. This would be key evidence for navigational theories, afterall, if there was a diffusionist global navigation practice, there would be global navigation alignments or reference points.   I've yet to see anything major referencing Sirius in this hemisphere.  Given that there were active civilizations at similar lattitudes, I find this strange.  It would seem to imply that there wasn't a sharing of archeoastronomical knowledge, yet this seems to have been a primary science in these culture.  I think this is a shaky area of the diffusionist argument.
           
          Pam
           
          You wrote :
          ----- Original Message -----
          Sent: Thursday, July 12, 2007 9:11 AM
          Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_ society] "The American Discovery of Europe"

          Jack Forbes claims that the Bosnian Pyramid is "imaginary" in order to keep the false pretense that the egyptian pyramids are the biggest. His makes accusations about all inscriptions from Bosnian Pyramids as being modern fakes. Sound Familiar? He also says that all work on the pyramid being due to natural forces or WW1 soldiers. He also rejects the dates of 12000 years ago and says that the people lived in bosnia beginning 5000 years ago, without any evidence to support his claim. His book entitled "The American Discovery of Europe" links america to egypt in the new world is biased toward egyptian influence of everything.
           
           
           minnesotastan <minnesotastan@ yahoo.com> wrote:
          Has anyone read this book? (University of Illinois Press, 2007)

          The author is Jack D. Forbes, and an advertising blurb in this month's
          Atlantic magazine says "Forbes makes an unusual and fascinating
          contribution to the story of the New and Old Worlds and the links
          between them, questioning in a welcome way the truth and ideological
          sway of orthodox history."

          Sounds like prime material for diffusionists. The book is not
          available in our library system. Has anyone in this group read it,
          and can you offer either a review or a comment?

          Thanks in advance,

          Stan

          p.s. - Rick Osmon, maybe you should interview this author



          Boardwalk for $500? In 2007? Ha!
          Play Monopoly Here and Now (it's updated for today's economy) at Yahoo! Games.


          Get the free Yahoo! toolbar and rest assured with the added security of spyware protection.

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