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Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Michigan Copper

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  • Larry Hancock
    Thanks. I ll check it out. There is also some who believe the copper trade was using the Connecticut River to access copper deposits in Vermont, and that a
    Message 1 of 5 , Mar 3, 2012
      Thanks. I'll check it out. There is also some who believe the copper trade was using the Connecticut River to access copper deposits in Vermont, and that a water route was open into Canada in the far past. However, no float copper has been found in Vermont, but if it ever existed it would have been on top and first removed. I do not know enough about smelting copper, but perhaps someone can tell me when producing copper from ore began. I found one reference to a cast copper axe head in the Vermont archaeological record, an artifact placed in the University of Vermont collection. I wrote a letter asking about it and was told it was "lost." Perhaps they were lying because I was not an academic, or perhaps they are just bad record-keepers.

      --- On Sat, 3/3/12, kbs2244 <kbs2244@...> wrote:

      From: kbs2244 <kbs2244@...>
      Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Michigan Copper
      To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Saturday, March 3, 2012, 12:18 PM

       

      Menzies is not the first to come up with the Michigan to Minoan copper trade concept.
      The idea has been around for a long time.
      The basic argument is that there wasn't enough copper in Europe and Asia to make all the bronze the Minoans were famous for. They had to be getting it from somewhere secret.

      Two major routes for the copper are commonly considered.
      One eastward across Lake Superior and Huron, a portage across the peninsula to Lake Erie, another portage around Niagara Fall and the onto ocean going boats.

      The other route is southward and inland. It made use of various Wisconsin and Illinois rivers to get to the Mississippi. Again a transfer to sea going boats anywhere form the river mouth to St Louis.

      There seems to be plenty of evidence that both routes were used extensively for a long time and then the trade just stopped. (Maybe because the end use customer blew up?)

      A fellow by the name of James P. Grimes from Michigan was a long time student of the concept. He wrote a historical novel called "The Incredible Bronze Age Journey" (ISBN 0-7414-1071-0) in which he relates the trials a tribulations of a young Minoan prince as he goes to Michigan to see if there is some way the Minoans could cut out some of the middle men in the trade.
      It is novel, but the author ties in technical details in word and illustrations to the point that it is almost a textbook.

      I would recommend it to anyone interested in this subject.
      It is an easy read and you will learn a lot.

    • kbs2244
      Recent archeology discoveries have found copper ore and smelting sites in the Sinai Peninsula that date back to before10 BC.
      Message 2 of 5 , Mar 4, 2012
        Recent archeology discoveries have found copper ore and smelting sites in the Sinai Peninsula that date back to before10 BC.

        http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/10/081027174545.htm

        There is some suggestion that "King Solomon's Mines" were copper mines, not gold.

        So copper smelting is not a new technology.
        But float copper avoids the whole expensive, dirty process.
        So it would be worth wile to take advantage of it.

        I do not know of any "Old World" float copper sites.
      • Susan
        Nice submissions in recent posts, KBS. Here is study w/photos by amateur archaelogist, Dr. E. J. Nieburger which may include examples of early copper
        Message 3 of 5 , Mar 6, 2012
          Nice submissions in recent posts, KBS.   Here is study w/photos by amateur archaelogist, Dr. E. J. Nieburger which may include  examples of early copper melting and casting from the "Riverside site" in Menomonie, Michigan:

          http://www.arrowheads.com/index.php/component/content/article/366-the-copper-of-the-riverside-site

          William Connor's 11/14/11 Iron Age America blog also includes an article by Dr. E.  J. Nieburger about copper casting and Hopewell Forced Air Furnaces from the Turner Mound Group in Ohio at the junction of the Ohio and Zlittle Miami Rivers (see diagrams):

          http://ironageamerica.blogspot.com/


          Sent from my iPad 
          --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "kbs2244" <kbs2244@...> wrote:
          >
          > Recent archeology discoveries have found copper ore and smelting sites in the Sinai Peninsula that date back to before10 BC.
          >
          > http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/10/081027174545.htm
          >
          > There is some suggestion that "King Solomon's Mines" were copper mines, not gold.
          >
          > So copper smelting is not a new technology.
          > But float copper avoids the whole expensive, dirty process.
          > So it would be worth wile to take advantage of it.
          >
          > I do not know of any "Old World" float copper sites.
          >
        • Susan
          Great stuff here, so many of you discussing the ancient intercontinental copper and metals trade (and the obvious tremendous cross-culturalcooperation and
          Message 4 of 5 , Mar 8, 2012
            Great stuff here, so many of you discussing the ancient intercontinental copper  and metals trade (and the obvious tremendous cross-culturalcooperation and diffusion that took  place over a great span of time).  Thanks Rick--another  early member of this group--- for taking time to share your wisdom and experience; haven't heard from you for a time and i know you  have been busier than ever.  I am curious  to know if you ever got our old  Viking researcher friend, Marion Dahm's plane repaired and off the ground?  (Rick pulled it behind his car through downtown Minneapolis-St.Paul on his way back to his Southern Indiana home after Mr. Dahm died unexpectedly of West NileVirus.)

            I wasn't  sure under what to title the following link, but there is a lot of information within this 7-8 page Graham Hancock forum (message board info  on the last pages some if you might wish to sign up for). .  Renoud deJong's co-author, JayWakefield is  featured on the first page. 

            Many of us here know  Alex Fagotti from Prospectors Paradise Rock Shop on highway 26/31 in Allouez, Michigan.  Ancient Waterways had an in expensive, informal 3 day weekend gathering near there a few years ago.  Alex is photographed within the hancock forum....the rock shop us a friendly place to stop for free coffee and chat.  I sometimes sleep in their parking lot in my car and use the shop's shower facilities.  If any of you go up into that area, I would like  to hear your 'take' on what many refer to as a 'vortex'- like anomaly back behind the metal pole building/ rock shop.  Evergreen trees grow into odd configurations very similar to  juniper trees  in some areas around Sedona, Arizona...that many refer to as energy vortexes...if there is such a thing.  Those sites also seem to coincide with ancient Sacred Sites, but then,  that is another topic.  If  anyone  wants to talk about about vortexes, ley lines,  or sacred sites sometime, please title your message as such for easier reference. 

            Page 4 of the following Forum----Mediterranean shipwreck and copper trade w/more photos of copper oxhides:

            http://www.grahamhancock.com/forum/WakefieldJS1.php?p=4



            Sent from my iPadhttp://www.grahamhancock.com/forum/WakefieldJS1.php?p=2


            Sent from my iPad
            --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "kbs2244" <kbs2244@...> wrote:
            >
            > Recent archeology discoveries have found copper ore and smelting sites in the Sinai Peninsula that date back to before10 BC.
            >
            > http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2008/10/081027174545.htm
            >
            > There is some suggestion that "King Solomon's Mines" were copper mines, not gold.
            >
            > So copper smelting is not a new technology.
            > But float copper avoids the whole expensive, dirty process.
            > So it would be worth wile to take advantage of it.
            >
            > I do not know of any "Old World" float copper sites.
            >
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