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Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz [1 Attachment]

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  • Vincent Barrows
    Ross; An artifact was found at Cahokia that closely matches the grid you have shown (please see link below).  
    Message 1 of 20 , Feb 14, 2012
    • 0 Attachment
      Ross;
      An artifact was found at Cahokia that closely matches the grid you have shown (please see link below).
       
       

      From: Ross Hamilton <d.ross.hamilton@...>
      To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 11:18 AM
      Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz [1 Attachment]

       
      Hello All,

      The subject of ancient metrology in North America  has met with the paradigms peculiar to archaeological isolationism. Britain's John Michell wrote extensively on the subject of world metrology in ancient times, although he avoided a discussion including the North American earthworks.I cannot help but wonder about the fact that trying to measure out earthworks seems too risky a proposal when so many other places around the world offer plenty of opportunities for more precise, quantitative study by stone.  Assuming Jim Sherz is familiar with Michell as well as Thom, let's examine some other points of view.
       
      James A. Marshall, a surveyor from Chicago, performed probably the most extensive revisiting of "Hopewell" sites after Squier & Davis and later Cyrus Thomas. Marshall came up with several units of measure for the earthworks of the Ohio and Mississippi Valleys, the most famous of which was 1056 feet. Ray Hively and Robert Horn came up with approximately 1054 feet, and William F. Romain decided on 1053 (non decimalize). All these measures were produced from approximations over sprawling earthwork structures, and, as each study suggests, are not definitive. Greater accuracies were admitted by these same authors when grids were placed, distinguishing the earthworks in a way peculiar to our modern love of precision. In 2001, I published The Mystery of the Serpent Mound (Random House) wherein is demonstrated, also through the use of thoroughly conceived grids, Alexander Thom's Megalithic Yard (MY. 2.72 feet) as well as his Megalithic Rod (6.8 feet) in association with the Serpent Mound. In that same publication, an in-depth discussion of the possible relationship of the MY to the units proposed by Marshall, Hively and Horn, and Romain is presented.
       
      In the attached figure, the Serpent Mound rests upon a hexagonal grid, the perimeter of which is 720 of Thom's MY. Note the way the Serpent's measurements can be defined by Thom's measure due to the alnost cunning way the Serpent "fits" into the hexagonal matrix.
       
      As a volunteer and caretaker at the Serpent Mound site, on a clear autumn afternoon about 4 years ago, and after we had just repaired a damaged path along the western cliffs of the effigy, we made an unusual discovery of an apparent megalithic-type standing stone. This discovery was published in Ancient American Magazine, volume 14, issue 89 (2011). Because we can now date the Serpent Mound by an astronomical method of association to the Middle Archaic Period (about 6-5000 years ago), and because we believe that standing stone (as illustrated in an animation video aired on the History Channel's Ancient Aliens series season opener last year, 2011), was a key to understanding the function of the Serpent Mound, we believe that Thom's measure may apply to that site. In order to present this properly however, the paradigm of abject isolationism must be removed, if only temporarily. We have seen the possibility of trade moving from the Great lakes Copper region tentatively to places far more distant than Hopewell or Adena trade routes allow. During this period of mining (about 5,000 years ago by approximation) it would seem that there may have been cultural influences from beyond American borders at work in the Ohio and Mississippi Valleys. For all we know with absolute certainty however, these influences dictating measure could just as well have moved from North America out. We just do not know what was going on anywhere in the world past 5,000 years ago, and I greatly suspect that our own ancient America may hold a grand key to grasping the architectures of ancient Britain, Mesoamerica, Greece, and Egypt as we progress with our researches.
       
      Coming this summer: Star Mounds; Legacy of a Native American Mystery (North Atantic/Random House).
       
       


    • Chris Patenaude
      What pees me off more n a tad are these fad TV shows about any mystery at all linked to Aliens Aliens!  I m angered and insulted as a human to think somebody
      Message 2 of 20 , Feb 21, 2012
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        What pees me off more'n a tad are these fad TV shows about any mystery at all linked to Aliens Aliens!  I'm angered and insulted as a human to think somebody in a media castle has figured out how to dumb down the US Public even further and make money doing it! Claiming every fantastic, phenomenal wisdom our ancestors figured out all on their li'l lonesomes is completely due to reptilian or birdmen from outer space, is denegrating to the spectacular potential our species posesses. WE did it. WE figured out the geometry and the grids and the spatial abstractions to create wonderful works of engineering. Not some martian.
         
        Just because we've denied the proper educational challenges to our children, and we're reaping the results with a retarded generation of dull minds who can't think up anything on their own... that's no reason to turn to fantasy to explain why we can't imagine how these things were done in the past. It's the new superstition.
        Ach, I'll get off my soap box now. But reeeeeely! Aliens. pah! We did it by ourselves and continue to create marvelous things. Thank heavens there's a hundered other channels to watch on the boob toob. Better yet, turn it off and go walk a mound.
        -cp

        --- On Tue, 2/14/12, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...> wrote:

        From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
        Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
        To: "d.ross.hamilton@..." <d.ross.hamilton@...>
        Cc: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
        Date: Tuesday, February 14, 2012, 4:25 PM



        Ross;
        An artifact was found at Cahokia that closely matches the grid you have shown (please see link below).
         
         

        From: Ross Hamilton <d.ross.hamilton@...>
        To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 11:18 AM
        Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz [1 Attachment]

         
        Hello All,

        The subject of ancient metrology in North America  has met with the paradigms peculiar to archaeological isolationism. Britain's John Michell wrote extensively on the subject of world metrology in ancient times, although he avoided a discussion including the North American earthworks.I cannot help but wonder about the fact that trying to measure out earthworks seems too risky a proposal when so many other places around the world offer plenty of opportunities for more precise, quantitative study by stone.  Assuming Jim Sherz is familiar with Michell as well as Thom, let's examine some other points of view.
         
        James A. Marshall, a surveyor from Chicago, performed probably the most extensive revisiting of "Hopewell" sites after Squier & Davis and later Cyrus Thomas. Marshall came up with several units of measure for the earthworks of the Ohio and Mississippi Valleys, the most famous of which was 1056 feet. Ray Hively and Robert Horn came up with approximately 1054 feet, and William F. Romain decided on 1053 (non decimalize). All these measures were produced from approximations over sprawling earthwork structures, and, as each study suggests, are not definitive. Greater accuracies were admitted by these same authors when grids were placed, distinguishing the earthworks in a way peculiar to our modern love of precision. In 2001, I published The Mystery of the Serpent Mound (Random House) wherein is demonstrated, also through the use of thoroughly conceived grids, Alexander Thom's Megalithic Yard (MY. 2.72 feet) as well as his Megalithic Rod (6.8 feet) in association with the Serpent Mound. In that same publication, an in-depth discussion of the possible relationship of the MY to the units proposed by Marshall, Hively and Horn, and Romain is presented.
         
        In the attached figure, the Serpent Mound rests upon a hexagonal grid, the perimeter of which is 720 of Thom's MY. Note the way the Serpent's measurements can be defined by Thom's measure due to the alnost cunning way the Serpent "fits" into the hexagonal matrix.
         
        As a volunteer and caretaker at the Serpent Mound site, on a clear autumn afternoon about 4 years ago, and after we had just repaired a damaged path along the western cliffs of the effigy, we made an unusual discovery of an apparent megalithic-type standing stone. This discovery was published in Ancient American Magazine, volume 14, issue 89 (2011). Because we can now date the Serpent Mound by an astronomical method of association to the Middle Archaic Period (about 6-5000 years ago), and because we believe that standing stone (as illustrated in an animation video aired on the History Channel's Ancient Aliens series season opener last year, 2011), was a key to understanding the function of the Serpent Mound, we believe that Thom's measure may apply to that site. In order to present this properly however, the paradigm of abject isolationism must be removed, if only temporarily. We have seen the possibility of trade moving from the Great lakes Copper region tentatively to places far more distant than Hopewell or Adena trade routes allow. During this period of mining (about 5,000 years ago by approximation) it would seem that there may have been cultural influences from beyond American borders at work in the Ohio and Mississippi Valleys. For all we know with absolute certainty however, these influences dictating measure could just as well have moved from North America out. We just do not know what was going on anywhere in the world past 5,000 years ago, and I greatly suspect that our own ancient America may hold a grand key to grasping the architectures of ancient Britain, Mesoamerica, Greece, and Egypt as we progress with our researches.
         
        Coming this summer: Star Mounds; Legacy of a Native American Mystery (North Atantic/Random House).
         
         




      • TRAYLOROO
        BACK  TO  BASICS   continue the below thread                =================         ... approximately 1054 feet, and William F. Romain
        Message 3 of 20 , Feb 21, 2012
        • 0 Attachment
          BACK  TO  BASICS   continue the below thread              
           
           =================
           
           
           
           

          From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
          Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
          To: "d.ross.hamilton@..." <d.ross.hamilton@...>
          Cc: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
          Date: Tuesday, February 14, 2012, 4:25 PM

          Ross;
          An artifact was found at Cahokia that closely matches the grid you have shown (please see link below).
           
           
          From: Ross Hamilton <d.ross.hamilton@...>
          To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 11:18 AM
          Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz [1 Attachment]
           
          Hello All,
          The subject of ancient metrology in North America  has met with the paradigms peculiar to archaeological isolationism. Britain's John Michell wrote extensively on the subject of world metrology in ancient times, although he avoided a discussion including the North American earthworks.I cannot help but wonder about the fact that trying to measure out earthworks seems too risky a proposal when so many other places around the world offer plenty of opportunities for more precise, quantitative study by stone.  Assuming Jim Sherz is familiar with Michell as well as Thom, let's examine some other points of view.   James A. Marshall, a surveyor from Chicago, performed probably the most extensive revisiting of "Hopewell" sites after Squier & Davis and later Cyrus Thomas. Marshall came up with several units of measure for the earthworks of the Ohio and Mississippi Valleys, the most famous of which was 1056 feet. Ray Hively and Robert Horn came up with approximately 1054 feet, and William F. Romain decided on 1053 (non decimalize). All these measures were produced from approximations over sprawling earthwork structures, and, as each study suggests, are not definitive. Greater accuracies were admitted by these same authors when grids were placed, distinguishing the earthworks in a way peculiar to our modern love of precision. In 2001, I published The Mystery of the Serpent Mound (Random House) wherein is demonstrated, also through the use of thoroughly conceived grids, Alexander Thom's Megalithic Yard (MY. 2.72 feet) as well as his Megalithic Rod (6.8 feet) in association with the Serpent Mound. In that same publication, an in-depth discussion of the possible relationship of the MY to the units proposed by Marshall, Hively and Horn, and Romain is presented.
           
          In the attached figure, the Serpent Mound rests upon a hexagonal grid, the perimeter of which is 720 of Thom's MY. Note the way the Serpent's measurements can be defined by Thom's measure due to the alnost cunning way the Serpent "fits" into the hexagonal matrix.   As a volunteer and caretaker at the Serpent Mound site, on a clear autumn afternoon about 4 years ago, and after we had just repaired a damaged path along the western cliffs of the effigy, we made an unusual discovery of an apparent megalithic-type standing stone. This discovery was published in Ancient American Magazine, volume 14, issue 89 (2011). Because we can now date the Serpent Mound by an astronomical method of association to the Middle Archaic Period (about 6-5000 years ago), and because we believe that standing stone (as illustrated in an animation video aired on the History Channel's Ancient Aliens series season opener last year, 2011), was a key to understanding the function of the Serpent Mound, we believe that Thom's measure may apply to that site. In order to present this properly however, the paradigm of abject isolationism must be removed, if only temporarily. We have seen the possibility of trade moving from the Great lakes Copper region tentatively to places far more distant than Hopewell or Adena trade routes allow. During this period of mining (about 5,000 years ago by approximation) it would seem that there may have been cultural influences from beyond American borders at work in the Ohio and Mississippi Valleys. For all we know with absolute certainty however, these influences dictating measure could just as well have moved from North America out. We just do not know what was going on anywhere in the world past 5,000 years ago, and I greatly suspect that our own ancient America may hold a grand key to grasping the architectures of ancient Britain, Mesoamerica, Greece, and Egypt as we progress with our researches.   Coming this summer: Star Mounds; Legacy of a Native American Mystery (North Atantic/Random House).
           
           
        • lar7436@aol.com
          Well said Chris! Glad to see someone take a stand. My sentiments exactly. ~ Larry Gallant
          Message 4 of 20 , Feb 21, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            Well said Chris! Glad to see someone take a stand. My sentiments exactly.  ~  Larry Gallant
          • Vincent Barrows
            Agree with you Chris! It is an insult to our humabs to dumb down the facts.  We are humans and not martiankind.   However, time would be better spent
            Message 5 of 20 , Feb 21, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              Agree with you Chris! It is an insult to our humabs to dumb down the facts.  We are humans and not martiankind.
               
              However, time would be better spent researching native wisdom on astronomy and the connections with mythology.
               
              There is a lot of evidence that natives spent stargazing and contributed in ancient times to the present-day constellation names, configurations, and legends.

              From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
              To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 2:11 AM
              Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
               
              What pees me off more'n a tad are these fad TV shows about any mystery at all linked to Aliens Aliens!  I'm angered and insulted as a human to think somebody in a media castle has figured out how to dumb down the US Public even further and make money doing it! Claiming every fantastic, phenomenal wisdom our ancestors figured out all on their li'l lonesomes is completely due to reptilian or birdmen from outer space, is denegrating to the spectacular potential our species posesses. WE did it. WE figured out the geometry and the grids and the spatial abstractions to create wonderful works of engineering. Not some martian.
               
              Just because we've denied the proper educational challenges to our children, and we're reaping the results with a retarded generation of dull minds who can't think up anything on their own... that's no reason to turn to fantasy to explain why we can't imagine how these things were done in the past. It's the new superstition.
              Ach, I'll get off my soap box now. But reeeeeely! Aliens. pah! We did it by ourselves and continue to create marvelous things. Thank heavens there's a hundered other channels to watch on the boob toob. Better yet, turn it off and go walk a mound.
              -cp
              --- On Tue, 2/14/12, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...> wrote:

              From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
              Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
              To: "d.ross.hamilton@..." <d.ross.hamilton@...>
              Cc: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
              Date: Tuesday, February 14, 2012, 4:25 PM

              Ross;
              An artifact was found at Cahokia that closely matches the grid you have shown (please see link below).
               
               
              From: Ross Hamilton <d.ross.hamilton@...>
              To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 11:18 AM
              Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz [1 Attachment]
               
              Hello All,
              The subject of ancient metrology in North America  has met with the paradigms peculiar to archaeological isolationism. Britain's John Michell wrote extensively on the subject of world metrology in ancient times, although he avoided a discussion including the North American earthworks.I cannot help but wonder about the fact that trying to measure out earthworks seems too risky a proposal when so many other places around the world offer plenty of opportunities for more precise, quantitative study by stone.  Assuming Jim Sherz is familiar with Michell as well as Thom, let's examine some other points of view.   James A. Marshall, a surveyor from Chicago, performed probably the most extensive revisiting of "Hopewell" sites after Squier & Davis and later Cyrus Thomas. Marshall came up with several units of measure for the earthworks of the Ohio and Mississippi Valleys, the most famous of which was 1056 feet. Ray Hively and Robert Horn came up with approximately 1054 feet, and William F. Romain decided on 1053 (non decimalize). All these measures were produced from approximations over sprawling earthwork structures, and, as each study suggests, are not definitive. Greater accuracies were admitted by these same authors when grids were placed, distinguishing the earthworks in a way peculiar to our modern love of precision. In 2001, I published The Mystery of the Serpent Mound (Random House) wherein is demonstrated, also through the use of thoroughly conceived grids, Alexander Thom's Megalithic Yard (MY. 2.72 feet) as well as his Megalithic Rod (6.8 feet) in association with the Serpent Mound. In that same publication, an in-depth discussion of the possible relationship of the MY to the units proposed by Marshall, Hively and Horn, and Romain is presented.
               
              In the attached figure, the Serpent Mound rests upon a hexagonal grid, the perimeter of which is 720 of Thom's MY. Note the way the Serpent's measurements can be defined by Thom's measure due to the alnost cunning way the Serpent "fits" into the hexagonal matrix.   As a volunteer and caretaker at the Serpent Mound site, on a clear autumn afternoon about 4 years ago, and after we had just repaired a damaged path along the western cliffs of the effigy, we made an unusual discovery of an apparent megalithic-type standing stone. This discovery was published in Ancient American Magazine, volume 14, issue 89 (2011). Because we can now date the Serpent Mound by an astronomical method of association to the Middle Archaic Period (about 6-5000 years ago), and because we believe that standing stone (as illustrated in an animation video aired on the History Channel's Ancient Aliens series season opener last year, 2011), was a key to understanding the function of the Serpent Mound, we believe that Thom's measure may apply to that site. In order to present this properly however, the paradigm of abject isolationism must be removed, if only temporarily. We have seen the possibility of trade moving from the Great lakes Copper region tentatively to places far more distant than Hopewell or Adena trade routes allow. During this period of mining (about 5,000 years ago by approximation) it would seem that there may have been cultural influences from beyond American borders at work in the Ohio and Mississippi Valleys. For all we know with absolute certainty however, these influences dictating measure could just as well have moved from North America out. We just do not know what was going on anywhere in the world past 5,000 years ago, and I greatly suspect that our own ancient America may hold a grand key to grasping the architectures of ancient Britain, Mesoamerica, Greece, and Egypt as we progress with our researches.   Coming this summer: Star Mounds; Legacy of a Native American Mystery (North Atantic/Random House).
               
               
            • charles bruns
              one aspect of these creations which can only me seen from the air is they hint the viewer is somewhere high overhead.  my Indian (dot) friend says it was for
              Message 6 of 20 , Feb 21, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                one aspect of these creations which can only me seen from the air is they hint the viewer is somewhere high overhead.  my Indian (dot) friend says it was for those who rode flying carpets in a civilization long ago.  chb

                From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
                To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 11:28 AM
                Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                 
                Agree with you Chris! It is an insult to our humabs to dumb down the facts.  We are humans and not martiankind.
                 
                However, time would be better spent researching native wisdom on astronomy and the connections with mythology.
                 
                There is a lot of evidence that natives spent stargazing and contributed in ancient times to the present-day constellation names, configurations, and legends.

                From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
                To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 2:11 AM
                Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                 
                What pees me off more'n a tad are these fad TV shows about any mystery at all linked to Aliens Aliens!  I'm angered and insulted as a human to think somebody in a media castle has figured out how to dumb down the US Public even further and make money doing it! Claiming every fantastic, phenomenal wisdom our ancestors figured out all on their li'l lonesomes is completely due to reptilian or birdmen from outer space, is denegrating to the spectacular potential our species posesses. WE did it. WE figured out the geometry and the grids and the spatial abstractions to create wonderful works of engineering. Not some martian.
                 
                Just because we've denied the proper educational challenges to our children, and we're reaping the results with a retarded generation of dull minds who can't think up anything on their own... that's no reason to turn to fantasy to explain why we can't imagine how these things were done in the past. It's the new superstition.
                Ach, I'll get off my soap box now. But reeeeeely! Aliens. pah! We did it by ourselves and continue to create marvelous things. Thank heavens there's a hundered other channels to watch on the boob toob. Better yet, turn it off and go walk a mound.
                -cp
                --- On Tue, 2/14/12, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...> wrote:

                From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
                Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                To: "d.ross.hamilton@..." <d.ross.hamilton@...>
                Cc: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                Date: Tuesday, February 14, 2012, 4:25 PM

                Ross;
                An artifact was found at Cahokia that closely matches the grid you have shown (please see link below).
                 
                 
                From: Ross Hamilton <d.ross.hamilton@...>
                To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 11:18 AM
                Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz [1 Attachment]
                 
                Hello All,
                The subject of ancient metrology in North America  has met with the paradigms peculiar to archaeological isolationism. Britain's John Michell wrote extensively on the subject of world metrology in ancient times, although he avoided a discussion including the North American earthworks.I cannot help but wonder about the fact that trying to measure out earthworks seems too risky a proposal when so many other places around the world offer plenty of opportunities for more precise, quantitative study by stone.  Assuming Jim Sherz is familiar with Michell as well as Thom, let's examine some other points of view.   James A. Marshall, a surveyor from Chicago, performed probably the most extensive revisiting of "Hopewell" sites after Squier & Davis and later Cyrus Thomas. Marshall came up with several units of measure for the earthworks of the Ohio and Mississippi Valleys, the most famous of which was 1056 feet. Ray Hively and Robert Horn came up with approximately 1054 feet, and William F. Romain decided on 1053 (non decimalize). All these measures were produced from approximations over sprawling earthwork structures, and, as each study suggests, are not definitive. Greater accuracies were admitted by these same authors when grids were placed, distinguishing the earthworks in a way peculiar to our modern love of precision. In 2001, I published The Mystery of the Serpent Mound (Random House) wherein is demonstrated, also through the use of thoroughly conceived grids, Alexander Thom's Megalithic Yard (MY. 2.72 feet) as well as his Megalithic Rod (6.8 feet) in association with the Serpent Mound. In that same publication, an in-depth discussion of the possible relationship of the MY to the units proposed by Marshall, Hively and Horn, and Romain is presented.
                 
                In the attached figure, the Serpent Mound rests upon a hexagonal grid, the perimeter of which is 720 of Thom's MY. Note the way the Serpent's measurements can be defined by Thom's measure due to the alnost cunning way the Serpent "fits" into the hexagonal matrix.   As a volunteer and caretaker at the Serpent Mound site, on a clear autumn afternoon about 4 years ago, and after we had just repaired a damaged path along the western cliffs of the effigy, we made an unusual discovery of an apparent megalithic-type standing stone. This discovery was published in Ancient American Magazine, volume 14, issue 89 (2011). Because we can now date the Serpent Mound by an astronomical method of association to the Middle Archaic Period (about 6-5000 years ago), and because we believe that standing stone (as illustrated in an animation video aired on the History Channel's Ancient Aliens series season opener last year, 2011), was a key to understanding the function of the Serpent Mound, we believe that Thom's measure may apply to that site. In order to present this properly however, the paradigm of abject isolationism must be removed, if only temporarily. We have seen the possibility of trade moving from the Great lakes Copper region tentatively to places far more distant than Hopewell or Adena trade routes allow. During this period of mining (about 5,000 years ago by approximation) it would seem that there may have been cultural influences from beyond American borders at work in the Ohio and Mississippi Valleys. For all we know with absolute certainty however, these influences dictating measure could just as well have moved from North America out. We just do not know what was going on anywhere in the world past 5,000 years ago, and I greatly suspect that our own ancient America may hold a grand key to grasping the architectures of ancient Britain, Mesoamerica, Greece, and Egypt as we progress with our researches.   Coming this summer: Star Mounds; Legacy of a Native American Mystery (North Atantic/Random House).
                 
                 
              • Vincent Barrows
                The Nazca lines comes to mind in regard to this. Why did they bother making imagery that could only be seen from high up? How did they get the porportions
                Message 7 of 20 , Feb 21, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  The "Nazca lines" comes to mind in regard to this. Why did they bother making imagery that could only be seen from high up? How did they get the porportions for these images correct? I have heard the rumour that they used hot-air balloons?

                  From: charles bruns <charbruns@...>
                  To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 12:02 PM
                  Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                   
                  one aspect of these creations which can only me seen from the air is they hint the viewer is somewhere high overhead.  my Indian (dot) friend says it was for those who rode flying carpets in a civilization long ago.  chb

                  From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
                  To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 11:28 AM
                  Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                   
                  Agree with you Chris! It is an insult to our humans to dumb down the facts.  We are humans and not martiankind.
                   
                  However, time would be better spent researching native wisdom on astronomy and the connections with mythology.
                   
                  There is a lot of evidence that natives spent stargazing and contributed in ancient times to the present-day constellation names, configurations, and legends.

                  From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
                  To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 2:11 AM
                  Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                   
                  What pees me off more'n a tad are these fad TV shows about any mystery at all linked to Aliens Aliens!  I'm angered and insulted as a human to think somebody in a media castle has figured out how to dumb down the US Public even further and make money doing it! Claiming every fantastic, phenomenal wisdom our ancestors figured out all on their li'l lonesomes is completely due to reptilian or birdmen from outer space, is denegrating to the spectacular potential our species posesses. WE did it. WE figured out the geometry and the grids and the spatial abstractions to create wonderful works of engineering. Not some martian.
                   
                  Just because we've denied the proper educational challenges to our children, and we're reaping the results with a retarded generation of dull minds who can't think up anything on their own... that's no reason to turn to fantasy to explain why we can't imagine how these things were done in the past. It's the new superstition.
                  Ach, I'll get off my soap box now. But reeeeeely! Aliens. pah! We did it by ourselves and continue to create marvelous things. Thank heavens there's a hundered other channels to watch on the boob toob. Better yet, turn it off and go walk a mound.
                  -cp
                  --- On Tue, 2/14/12, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...> wrote:

                  From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
                  Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                  To: "d.ross.hamilton@..." <d.ross.hamilton@...>
                  Cc: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                  Date: Tuesday, February 14, 2012, 4:25 PM

                  Ross;
                  An artifact was found at Cahokia that closely matches the grid you have shown (please see link below).
                   
                   
                  From: Ross Hamilton <d.ross.hamilton@...>
                  To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 11:18 AM
                  Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz [1 Attachment]
                   
                  Hello All,
                  The subject of ancient metrology in North America  has met with the paradigms peculiar to archaeological isolationism. Britain's John Michell wrote extensively on the subject of world metrology in ancient times, although he avoided a discussion including the North American earthworks.I cannot help but wonder about the fact that trying to measure out earthworks seems too risky a proposal when so many other places around the world offer plenty of opportunities for more precise, quantitative study by stone.  Assuming Jim Sherz is familiar with Michell as well as Thom, let's examine some other points of view.   James A. Marshall, a surveyor from Chicago, performed probably the most extensive revisiting of "Hopewell" sites after Squier & Davis and later Cyrus Thomas. Marshall came up with several units of measure for the earthworks of the Ohio and Mississippi Valleys, the most famous of which was 1056 feet. Ray Hively and Robert Horn came up with approximately 1054 feet, and William F. Romain decided on 1053 (non decimalize). All these measures were produced from approximations over sprawling earthwork structures, and, as each study suggests, are not definitive. Greater accuracies were admitted by these same authors when grids were placed, distinguishing the earthworks in a way peculiar to our modern love of precision. In 2001, I published The Mystery of the Serpent Mound (Random House) wherein is demonstrated, also through the use of thoroughly conceived grids, Alexander Thom's Megalithic Yard (MY. 2.72 feet) as well as his Megalithic Rod (6.8 feet) in association with the Serpent Mound. In that same publication, an in-depth discussion of the possible relationship of the MY to the units proposed by Marshall, Hively and Horn, and Romain is presented.
                   
                  In the attached figure, the Serpent Mound rests upon a hexagonal grid, the perimeter of which is 720 of Thom's MY. Note the way the Serpent's measurements can be defined by Thom's measure due to the alnost cunning way the Serpent "fits" into the hexagonal matrix.   As a volunteer and caretaker at the Serpent Mound site, on a clear autumn afternoon about 4 years ago, and after we had just repaired a damaged path along the western cliffs of the effigy, we made an unusual discovery of an apparent megalithic-type standing stone. This discovery was published in Ancient American Magazine, volume 14, issue 89 (2011). Because we can now date the Serpent Mound by an astronomical method of association to the Middle Archaic Period (about 6-5000 years ago), and because we believe that standing stone (as illustrated in an animation video aired on the History Channel's Ancient Aliens series season opener last year, 2011), was a key to understanding the function of the Serpent Mound, we believe that Thom's measure may apply to that site. In order to present this properly however, the paradigm of abject isolationism must be removed, if only temporarily. We have seen the possibility of trade moving from the Great lakes Copper region tentatively to places far more distant than Hopewell or Adena trade routes allow. During this period of mining (about 5,000 years ago by approximation) it would seem that there may have been cultural influences from beyond American borders at work in the Ohio and Mississippi Valleys. For all we know with absolute certainty however, these influences dictating measure could just as well have moved from North America out. We just do not know what was going on anywhere in the world past 5,000 years ago, and I greatly suspect that our own ancient America may hold a grand key to grasping the architectures of ancient Britain, Mesoamerica, Greece, and Egypt as we progress with our researches.   Coming this summer: Star Mounds; Legacy of a Native American Mystery (North Atantic/Random House).
                   
                   
                • Ted Sojka
                  One may not need the flying carpet at all, and those who sought visions were not always limited to the surface of the earth. Remember ones religion is another
                  Message 8 of 20 , Feb 21, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    One may not need the flying carpet at all, and those who sought visions were not always limited to the surface of the earth.  Remember ones religion is another man's superstition.  

                    If you read the shamanistic book, "Black Elk Speaks", you might be opened minded to the thought of out of body travel and visions.  I see no problem with things on the ground that relate to the sky, whether anyone is actually supposed to see them from above, or not.  When they stopped by heart while doing my bypasses, I was on the ceiling looking down.  Wonderful drugs they give you for that sun dance ceremony under the operating lights.  

                    Yes, there is no insult intended for those of the earth, but whether it is spirits or entities that never lived here, what difference does that make except to a narrow belief system.  Some believe that spirits from elsewhere are helping us all the time, whether you believe in guardian angels or other dimensional beings.  No offense to the sciences meant!

                    Way out there today,
                    ted

                    PS Thanks to Jim Sherz for starting this thread and communicating with the group again.  
                    On Feb 21, 2012, at 12:02 PM, charles bruns wrote:

                     

                    one aspect of these creations which can only me seen from the air is they hint the viewer is somewhere high overhead.  my Indian (dot) friend says it was for those who rode flying carpets in a civilization long ago.  chb

                    From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
                    To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 11:28 AM
                    Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                     
                    Agree with you Chris! It is an insult to our humabs to dumb down the facts.  We are humans and not martiankind.
                     
                    However, time would be better spent researching native wisdom on astronomy and the connections with mythology.
                     
                    There is a lot of evidence that natives spent stargazing and contributed in ancient times to the present-day constellation names, configurations, and legends.

                    From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
                    To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 2:11 AM
                    Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                     
                    What pees me off more'n a tad are these fad TV shows about any mystery at all linked to Aliens Aliens!  I'm angered and insulted as a human to think somebody in a media castle has figured out how to dumb down the US Public even further and make money doing it! Claiming every fantastic, phenomenal wisdom our ancestors figured out all on their li'l lonesomes is completely due to reptilian or birdmen from outer space, is denegrating to the spectacular potential our species posesses. WE did it. WE figured out the geometry and the grids and the spatial abstractions to create wonderful works of engineering. Not some martian.
                     
                    Just because we've denied the proper educational challenges to our children, and we're reaping the results with a retarded generation of dull minds who can't think up anything on their own... that's no reason to turn to fantasy to explain why we can't imagine how these things were done in the past. It's the new superstition.
                    Ach, I'll get off my soap box now. But reeeeeely! Aliens. pah! We did it by ourselves and continue to create marvelous things. Thank heavens there's a hundered other channels to watch on the boob toob. Better yet, turn it off and go walk a mound.
                    -cp
                    --- On Tue, 2/14/12, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...> wrote:

                    From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
                    Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                    To: "d.ross.hamilton@..." <d.ross.hamilton@...>
                    Cc: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                    Date: Tuesday, February 14, 2012, 4:25 PM

                    Ross;
                    An artifact was found at Cahokia that closely matches the grid you have shown (please see link below).
                     
                     
                    From: Ross Hamilton <d.ross.hamilton@...>
                    To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 11:18 AM
                    Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz [1 Attachment]
                     
                    Hello All,
                    The subject of ancient metrology in North America  has met with the paradigms peculiar to archaeological isolationism. Britain's John Michell wrote extensively on the subject of world metrology in ancient times, although he avoided a discussion including the North American earthworks.I cannot help but wonder about the fact that trying to measure out earthworks seems too risky a proposal when so many other places around the world offer plenty of opportunities for more precise, quantitative study by stone.  Assuming Jim Sherz is familiar with Michell as well as Thom, let's examine some other points of view.   James A. Marshall, a surveyor from Chicago, performed probably the most extensive revisiting of "Hopewell" sites after Squier & Davis and later Cyrus Thomas. Marshall came up with several units of measure for the earthworks of the Ohio and Mississippi Valleys, the most famous of which was 1056 feet. Ray Hively and Robert Horn came up with approximately 1054 feet, and William F. Romain decided on 1053 (non decimalize). All these measures were produced from approximations over sprawling earthwork structures, and, as each study suggests, are not definitive. Greater accuracies were admitted by these same authors when grids were placed, distinguishing the earthworks in a way peculiar to our modern love of precision. In 2001, I published The Mystery of the Serpent Mound (Random House) wherein is demonstrated, also through the use of thoroughly conceived grids, Alexander Thom's Megalithic Yard (MY. 2.72 feet) as well as his Megalithic Rod (6.8 feet) in association with the Serpent Mound. In that same publication, an in-depth discussion of the possible relationship of the MY to the units proposed by Marshall, Hively and Horn, and Romain is presented.
                     
                    In the attached figure, the Serpent Mound rests upon a hexagonal grid, the perimeter of which is 720 of Thom's MY. Note the way the Serpent's measurements can be defined by Thom's measure due to the alnost cunning way the Serpent "fits" into the hexagonal matrix.   As a volunteer and caretaker at the Serpent Mound site, on a clear autumn afternoon about 4 years ago, and after we had just repaired a damaged path along the western cliffs of the effigy, we made an unusual discovery of an apparent megalithic-type standing stone. This discovery was published in Ancient American Magazine, volume 14, issue 89 (2011). Because we can now date the Serpent Mound by an astronomical method of association to the Middle Archaic Period (about 6-5000 years ago), and because we believe that standing stone (as illustrated in an animation video aired on the History Channel's Ancient Aliens series season opener last year, 2011), was a key to understanding the function of the Serpent Mound, we believe that Thom's measure may apply to that site. In order to present this properly however, the paradigm of abject isolationism must be removed, if only temporarily. We have seen the possibility of trade moving from the Great lakes Copper region tentatively to places far more distant than Hopewell or Adena trade routes allow. During this period of mining (about 5,000 years ago by approximation) it would seem that there may have been cultural influences from beyond American borders at work in the Ohio and Mississippi Valleys. For all we know with absolute certainty however, these influences dictating measure could just as well have moved from North America out. We just do not know what was going on anywhere in the world past 5,000 years ago, and I greatly suspect that our own ancient America may hold a grand key to grasping the architectures of ancient Britain, Mesoamerica, Greece, and Egypt as we progress with our researches.   Coming this summer: Star Mounds; Legacy of a Native American Mystery (North Atantic/Random House).
                     
                     


                  • charles bruns
                    Kites? chb From: Vincent Barrows To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com Sent:
                    Message 9 of 20 , Feb 21, 2012
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Kites? chb

                      From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
                      To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 12:12 PM
                      Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                       
                      The "Nazca lines" comes to mind in regard to this. Why did they bother making imagery that could only be seen from high up? How did they get the porportions for these images correct? I have heard the rumour that they used hot-air balloons?

                      From: charles bruns <charbruns@...>
                      To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 12:02 PM
                      Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                       
                      one aspect of these creations which can only me seen from the air is they hint the viewer is somewhere high overhead.  my Indian (dot) friend says it was for those who rode flying carpets in a civilization long ago.  chb

                      From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
                      To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 11:28 AM
                      Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                       
                      Agree with you Chris! It is an insult to our humans to dumb down the facts.  We are humans and not martiankind.
                       
                      However, time would be better spent researching native wisdom on astronomy and the connections with mythology.
                       
                      There is a lot of evidence that natives spent stargazing and contributed in ancient times to the present-day constellation names, configurations, and legends.

                      From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
                      To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 2:11 AM
                      Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                       
                      What pees me off more'n a tad are these fad TV shows about any mystery at all linked to Aliens Aliens!  I'm angered and insulted as a human to think somebody in a media castle has figured out how to dumb down the US Public even further and make money doing it! Claiming every fantastic, phenomenal wisdom our ancestors figured out all on their li'l lonesomes is completely due to reptilian or birdmen from outer space, is denegrating to the spectacular potential our species posesses. WE did it. WE figured out the geometry and the grids and the spatial abstractions to create wonderful works of engineering. Not some martian.
                       
                      Just because we've denied the proper educational challenges to our children, and we're reaping the results with a retarded generation of dull minds who can't think up anything on their own... that's no reason to turn to fantasy to explain why we can't imagine how these things were done in the past. It's the new superstition.
                      Ach, I'll get off my soap box now. But reeeeeely! Aliens. pah! We did it by ourselves and continue to create marvelous things. Thank heavens there's a hundered other channels to watch on the boob toob. Better yet, turn it off and go walk a mound.
                      -cp
                      --- On Tue, 2/14/12, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...> wrote:

                      From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
                      Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                      To: "d.ross.hamilton@..." <d.ross.hamilton@...>
                      Cc: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                      Date: Tuesday, February 14, 2012, 4:25 PM

                      Ross;
                      An artifact was found at Cahokia that closely matches the grid you have shown (please see link below).
                       
                       
                      From: Ross Hamilton <d.ross.hamilton@...>
                      To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 11:18 AM
                      Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz [1 Attachment]
                       
                      Hello All,
                      The subject of ancient metrology in North America  has met with the paradigms peculiar to archaeological isolationism. Britain's John Michell wrote extensively on the subject of world metrology in ancient times, although he avoided a discussion including the North American earthworks.I cannot help but wonder about the fact that trying to measure out earthworks seems too risky a proposal when so many other places around the world offer plenty of opportunities for more precise, quantitative study by stone.  Assuming Jim Sherz is familiar with Michell as well as Thom, let's examine some other points of view.   James A. Marshall, a surveyor from Chicago, performed probably the most extensive revisiting of "Hopewell" sites after Squier & Davis and later Cyrus Thomas. Marshall came up with several units of measure for the earthworks of the Ohio and Mississippi Valleys, the most famous of which was 1056 feet. Ray Hively and Robert Horn came up with approximately 1054 feet, and William F. Romain decided on 1053 (non decimalize). All these measures were produced from approximations over sprawling earthwork structures, and, as each study suggests, are not definitive. Greater accuracies were admitted by these same authors when grids were placed, distinguishing the earthworks in a way peculiar to our modern love of precision. In 2001, I published The Mystery of the Serpent Mound (Random House) wherein is demonstrated, also through the use of thoroughly conceived grids, Alexander Thom's Megalithic Yard (MY. 2.72 feet) as well as his Megalithic Rod (6.8 feet) in association with the Serpent Mound. In that same publication, an in-depth discussion of the possible relationship of the MY to the units proposed by Marshall, Hively and Horn, and Romain is presented.
                       
                      In the attached figure, the Serpent Mound rests upon a hexagonal grid, the perimeter of which is 720 of Thom's MY. Note the way the Serpent's measurements can be defined by Thom's measure due to the alnost cunning way the Serpent "fits" into the hexagonal matrix.   As a volunteer and caretaker at the Serpent Mound site, on a clear autumn afternoon about 4 years ago, and after we had just repaired a damaged path along the western cliffs of the effigy, we made an unusual discovery of an apparent megalithic-type standing stone. This discovery was published in Ancient American Magazine, volume 14, issue 89 (2011). Because we can now date the Serpent Mound by an astronomical method of association to the Middle Archaic Period (about 6-5000 years ago), and because we believe that standing stone (as illustrated in an animation video aired on the History Channel's Ancient Aliens series season opener last year, 2011), was a key to understanding the function of the Serpent Mound, we believe that Thom's measure may apply to that site. In order to present this properly however, the paradigm of abject isolationism must be removed, if only temporarily. We have seen the possibility of trade moving from the Great lakes Copper region tentatively to places far more distant than Hopewell or Adena trade routes allow. During this period of mining (about 5,000 years ago by approximation) it would seem that there may have been cultural influences from beyond American borders at work in the Ohio and Mississippi Valleys. For all we know with absolute certainty however, these influences dictating measure could just as well have moved from North America out. We just do not know what was going on anywhere in the world past 5,000 years ago, and I greatly suspect that our own ancient America may hold a grand key to grasping the architectures of ancient Britain, Mesoamerica, Greece, and Egypt as we progress with our researches.   Coming this summer: Star Mounds; Legacy of a Native American Mystery (North Atantic/Random House).
                       
                       
                    • Ted Sojka
                      (For consideration and thought) Something like a hot air ballon is on a piece of pottery down there in South America, and someone built a model with a tight
                      Message 10 of 20 , Feb 21, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment
                        (For consideration and thought)

                        Something like a hot air ballon is on a piece of pottery down there in South America, and someone built a model with a tight woven fabric available to the culture.  It rose with hot air.   It was like Jules Verne meets Thor Heyerdahl.  

                        It is easier explained with that metaphysical tool,  astral projection, that lightness of being stuff?   As to who was meant to see these, some of those South American ancient drinks made from mushrooms and other brewed plants could get the mind off the ground a bit, and way before the Wright brother's invention. 

                        I think the survey stick, or someone who has put in a row of fence posts knows you make a fairly good and long straight line by simply using the last couple of post as a guide.    If indeed it was meant to be seen from above like the Effigy Mounds in Iowa, I am also reminded of the chalk cut giant horse and Giant Man of Kent in England that were huge engravings on the earth.  

                        I am sure the Great Serpent Mound tied things under the Earth and with the sky.  If you look at photos or engravings of the cliff face near the head of the Serpent it does look like the cliff has a Serpent's head, with a row of teeth in a different strata, and maybe an eye where it should be located.    

                        The high ceiling Cathedrals were designed to get our thoughts upward and to heaven, no?

                        ted 


                        On Feb 21, 2012, at 12:12 PM, Vincent Barrows wrote:

                         

                        The "Nazca lines" comes to mind in regard to this. Why did they bother making imagery that could only be seen from high up? How did they get the porportions for these images correct? I have heard the rumour that they used hot-air balloons?

                        From: charles bruns <charbruns@...>
                        To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 12:02 PM
                        Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                         
                        one aspect of these creations which can only me seen from the air is they hint the viewer is somewhere high overhead.  my Indian (dot) friend says it was for those who rode flying carpets in a civilization long ago.  chb

                        From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
                        To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 11:28 AM
                        Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                         
                        Agree with you Chris! It is an insult to our humans to dumb down the facts.  We are humans and not martiankind.
                         
                        However, time would be better spent researching native wisdom on astronomy and the connections with mythology.
                         
                        There is a lot of evidence that natives spent stargazing and contributed in ancient times to the present-day constellation names, configurations, and legends.

                        From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
                        To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 2:11 AM
                        Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                         
                        What pees me off more'n a tad are these fad TV shows about any mystery at all linked to Aliens Aliens!  I'm angered and insulted as a human to think somebody in a media castle has figured out how to dumb down the US Public even further and make money doing it! Claiming every fantastic, phenomenal wisdom our ancestors figured out all on their li'l lonesomes is completely due to reptilian or birdmen from outer space, is denegrating to the spectacular potential our species posesses. WE did it. WE figured out the geometry and the grids and the spatial abstractions to create wonderful works of engineering. Not some martian.
                         
                        Just because we've denied the proper educational challenges to our children, and we're reaping the results with a retarded generation of dull minds who can't think up anything on their own... that's no reason to turn to fantasy to explain why we can't imagine how these things were done in the past. It's the new superstition.
                        Ach, I'll get off my soap box now. But reeeeeely! Aliens. pah! We did it by ourselves and continue to create marvelous things. Thank heavens there's a hundered other channels to watch on the boob toob. Better yet, turn it off and go walk a mound.
                        -cp
                        --- On Tue, 2/14/12, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...> wrote:

                        From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
                        Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                        To: "d.ross.hamilton@..." <d.ross.hamilton@...>
                        Cc: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                        Date: Tuesday, February 14, 2012, 4:25 PM

                        Ross;
                        An artifact was found at Cahokia that closely matches the grid you have shown (please see link below).
                         
                         
                        From: Ross Hamilton <d.ross.hamilton@...>
                        To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 11:18 AM
                        Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz [1 Attachment]
                         
                        Hello All,
                        The subject of ancient metrology in North America  has met with the paradigms peculiar to archaeological isolationism. Britain's John Michell wrote extensively on the subject of world metrology in ancient times, although he avoided a discussion including the North American earthworks.I cannot help but wonder about the fact that trying to measure out earthworks seems too risky a proposal when so many other places around the world offer plenty of opportunities for more precise, quantitative study by stone.  Assuming Jim Sherz is familiar with Michell as well as Thom, let's examine some other points of view.   James A. Marshall, a surveyor from Chicago, performed probably the most extensive revisiting of "Hopewell" sites after Squier & Davis and later Cyrus Thomas. Marshall came up with several units of measure for the earthworks of the Ohio and Mississippi Valleys, the most famous of which was 1056 feet. Ray Hively and Robert Horn came up with approximately 1054 feet, and William F. Romain decided on 1053 (non decimalize). All these measures were produced from approximations over sprawling earthwork structures, and, as each study suggests, are not definitive. Greater accuracies were admitted by these same authors when grids were placed, distinguishing the earthworks in a way peculiar to our modern love of precision. In 2001, I published The Mystery of the Serpent Mound (Random House) wherein is demonstrated, also through the use of thoroughly conceived grids, Alexander Thom's Megalithic Yard (MY. 2.72 feet) as well as his Megalithic Rod (6.8 feet) in association with the Serpent Mound. In that same publication, an in-depth discussion of the possible relationship of the MY to the units proposed by Marshall, Hively and Horn, and Romain is presented.
                         
                        In the attached figure, the Serpent Mound rests upon a hexagonal grid, the perimeter of which is 720 of Thom's MY. Note the way the Serpent's measurements can be defined by Thom's measure due to the alnost cunning way the Serpent "fits" into the hexagonal matrix.   As a volunteer and caretaker at the Serpent Mound site, on a clear autumn afternoon about 4 years ago, and after we had just repaired a damaged path along the western cliffs of the effigy, we made an unusual discovery of an apparent megalithic-type standing stone. This discovery was published in Ancient American Magazine, volume 14, issue 89 (2011). Because we can now date the Serpent Mound by an astronomical method of association to the Middle Archaic Period (about 6-5000 years ago), and because we believe that standing stone (as illustrated in an animation video aired on the History Channel's Ancient Aliens series season opener last year, 2011), was a key to understanding the function of the Serpent Mound, we believe that Thom's measure may apply to that site. In order to present this properly however, the paradigm of abject isolationism must be removed, if only temporarily. We have seen the possibility of trade moving from the Great lakes Copper region tentatively to places far more distant than Hopewell or Adena trade routes allow. During this period of mining (about 5,000 years ago by approximation) it would seem that there may have been cultural influences from beyond American borders at work in the Ohio and Mississippi Valleys. For all we know with absolute certainty however, these influences dictating measure could just as well have moved from North America out. We just do not know what was going on anywhere in the world past 5,000 years ago, and I greatly suspect that our own ancient America may hold a grand key to grasping the architectures of ancient Britain, Mesoamerica, Greece, and Egypt as we progress with our researches.   Coming this summer: Star Mounds; Legacy of a Native American Mystery (North Atantic/Random House).
                         
                         


                      • Larry Hancock
                        Whether or not something is designed to be seen from the air, it still had to be constructed on the ground. I cannot quite picture someone hanging over the
                        Message 11 of 20 , Feb 21, 2012
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Whether or not something is designed to be seen from the air, it still had to be constructed on the ground. I cannot quite picture someone hanging over the edge of the basket of a hot air balloon yelling "Move it that way. No, the other way." Or the same while suspended in a hallucinogenic trance. I would prefer to think no matter how it was designed to be viewed, someone with exceptional surveying skills was doing the actual work.

                          --- On Tue, 2/21/12, charles bruns <charbruns@...> wrote:

                          From: charles bruns <charbruns@...>
                          Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                          To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                          Date: Tuesday, February 21, 2012, 2:16 PM

                           

                          Kites? chb

                          From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
                          To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 12:12 PM
                          Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                           
                          The "Nazca lines" comes to mind in regard to this. Why did they bother making imagery that could only be seen from high up? How did they get the porportions for these images correct? I have heard the rumour that they used hot-air balloons?

                          From: charles bruns <charbruns@...>
                          To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 12:02 PM
                          Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                           
                          one aspect of these creations which can only me seen from the air is they hint the viewer is somewhere high overhead.  my Indian (dot) friend says it was for those who rode flying carpets in a civilization long ago.  chb

                          From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
                          To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 11:28 AM
                          Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                           
                          Agree with you Chris! It is an insult to our humans to dumb down the facts.  We are humans and not martiankind.
                           
                          However, time would be better spent researching native wisdom on astronomy and the connections with mythology.
                           
                          There is a lot of evidence that natives spent stargazing and contributed in ancient times to the present-day constellation names, configurations, and legends.

                          From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
                          To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 2:11 AM
                          Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                           
                          What pees me off more'n a tad are these fad TV shows about any mystery at all linked to Aliens Aliens!  I'm angered and insulted as a human to think somebody in a media castle has figured out how to dumb down the US Public even further and make money doing it! Claiming every fantastic, phenomenal wisdom our ancestors figured out all on their li'l lonesomes is completely due to reptilian or birdmen from outer space, is denegrating to the spectacular potential our species posesses. WE did it. WE figured out the geometry and the grids and the spatial abstractions to create wonderful works of engineering. Not some martian.
                           
                          Just because we've denied the proper educational challenges to our children, and we're reaping the results with a retarded generation of dull minds who can't think up anything on their own... that's no reason to turn to fantasy to explain why we can't imagine how these things were done in the past. It's the new superstition.
                          Ach, I'll get off my soap box now. But reeeeeely! Aliens. pah! We did it by ourselves and continue to create marvelous things. Thank heavens there's a hundered other channels to watch on the boob toob. Better yet, turn it off and go walk a mound.
                          -cp
                          --- On Tue, 2/14/12, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...> wrote:

                          From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
                          Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                          To: "d.ross.hamilton@..." <d.ross.hamilton@...>
                          Cc: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                          Date: Tuesday, February 14, 2012, 4:25 PM

                          Ross;
                          An artifact was found at Cahokia that closely matches the grid you have shown (please see link below).
                           
                           
                          From: Ross Hamilton <d.ross.hamilton@...>
                          To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 11:18 AM
                          Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz [1 Attachment]
                           
                          Hello All,
                          The subject of ancient metrology in North America  has met with the paradigms peculiar to archaeological isolationism. Britain's John Michell wrote extensively on the subject of world metrology in ancient times, although he avoided a discussion including the North American earthworks.I cannot help but wonder about the fact that trying to measure out earthworks seems too risky a proposal when so many other places around the world offer plenty of opportunities for more precise, quantitative study by stone.  Assuming Jim Sherz is familiar with Michell as well as Thom, let's examine some other points of view.   James A. Marshall, a surveyor from Chicago, performed probably the most extensive revisiting of "Hopewell" sites after Squier & Davis and later Cyrus Thomas. Marshall came up with several units of measure for the earthworks of the Ohio and Mississippi Valleys, the most famous of which was 1056 feet. Ray Hively and Robert Horn came up with approximately 1054 feet, and William F. Romain decided on 1053 (non decimalize). All these measures were produced from approximations over sprawling earthwork structures, and, as each study suggests, are not definitive. Greater accuracies were admitted by these same authors when grids were placed, distinguishing the earthworks in a way peculiar to our modern love of precision. In 2001, I published The Mystery of the Serpent Mound (Random House) wherein is demonstrated, also through the use of thoroughly conceived grids, Alexander Thom's Megalithic Yard (MY. 2.72 feet) as well as his Megalithic Rod (6.8 feet) in association with the Serpent Mound. In that same publication, an in-depth discussion of the possible relationship of the MY to the units proposed by Marshall, Hively and Horn, and Romain is presented.
                           
                          In the attached figure, the Serpent Mound rests upon a hexagonal grid, the perimeter of which is 720 of Thom's MY. Note the way the Serpent's measurements can be defined by Thom's measure due to the alnost cunning way the Serpent "fits" into the hexagonal matrix.   As a volunteer and caretaker at the Serpent Mound site, on a clear autumn afternoon about 4 years ago, and after we had just repaired a damaged path along the western cliffs of the effigy, we made an unusual discovery of an apparent megalithic-type standing stone. This discovery was published in Ancient American Magazine, volume 14, issue 89 (2011). Because we can now date the Serpent Mound by an astronomical method of association to the Middle Archaic Period (about 6-5000 years ago), and because we believe that standing stone (as illustrated in an animation video aired on the History Channel's Ancient Aliens series season opener last year, 2011), was a key to understanding the function of the Serpent Mound, we believe that Thom's measure may apply to that site. In order to present this properly however, the paradigm of abject isolationism must be removed, if only temporarily. We have seen the possibility of trade moving from the Great lakes Copper region tentatively to places far more distant than Hopewell or Adena trade routes allow. During this period of mining (about 5,000 years ago by approximation) it would seem that there may have been cultural influences from beyond American borders at work in the Ohio and Mississippi Valleys. For all we know with absolute certainty however, these influences dictating measure could just as well have moved from North America out. We just do not know what was going on anywhere in the world past 5,000 years ago, and I greatly suspect that our own ancient America may hold a grand key to grasping the architectures of ancient Britain, Mesoamerica, Greece, and Egypt as we progress with our researches.   Coming this summer: Star Mounds; Legacy of a Native American Mystery (North Atantic/Random House).
                           
                           
                        • TRAYLOROO
                          Meanwhile, back on earth, we made a small model.    We then expanded that to a power of  10 .... or 20 .... or 40 ....               Where are
                          Message 12 of 20 , Feb 21, 2012
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Meanwhile, back on earth, we made a small model. 
                             
                            We then expanded that to a power of  10 .... or 20 .... or 40 ....              
                             
                            Where are your children tonight? 
                            A MUST-SEE VIDEO  click: 
                            From: Larry Hancock <hancocklarry40@...>
                            To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 2:30 PM
                            Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                             
                            Whether or not something is designed to be seen from the air, it still had to be constructed on the ground. I cannot quite picture someone hanging over the edge of the basket of a hot air balloon yelling "Move it that way. No, the other way." Or the same while suspended in a hallucinogenic trance. I would prefer to think no matter how it was designed to be viewed, someone with exceptional surveying skills was doing the actual work.

                            --- On Tue, 2/21/12, charles bruns <charbruns@...> wrote:

                            From: charles bruns <charbruns@...>
                            Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                            To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                            Date: Tuesday, February 21, 2012, 2:16 PM

                             
                            Kites? chb
                            From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
                            To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 12:12 PM
                            Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                             
                            The "Nazca lines" comes to mind in regard to this. Why did they bother making imagery that could only be seen from high up? How did they get the porportions for these images correct? I have heard the rumour that they used hot-air balloons?
                            From: charles bruns <charbruns@...>
                            To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 12:02 PM
                            Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                             
                            one aspect of these creations which can only me seen from the air is they hint the viewer is somewhere high overhead.  my Indian (dot) friend says it was for those who rode flying carpets in a civilization long ago.  chb
                            From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
                            To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 11:28 AM
                            Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                             
                            Agree with you Chris! It is an insult to our humans to dumb down the facts.  We are humans and not martiankind.
                             
                            However, time would be better spent researching native wisdom on astronomy and the connections with mythology.
                             
                            There is a lot of evidence that natives spent stargazing and contributed in ancient times to the present-day constellation names, configurations, and legends.
                            From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
                            To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 2:11 AM
                            Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                             
                            What pees me off more'n a tad are these fad TV shows about any mystery at all linked to Aliens Aliens!  I'm angered and insulted as a human to think somebody in a media castle has figured out how to dumb down the US Public even further and make money doing it! Claiming every fantastic, phenomenal wisdom our ancestors figured out all on their li'l lonesomes is completely due to reptilian or birdmen from outer space, is denegrating to the spectacular potential our species posesses. WE did it. WE figured out the geometry and the grids and the spatial abstractions to create wonderful works of engineering. Not some martian.
                             
                            Just because we've denied the proper educational challenges to our children, and we're reaping the results with a retarded generation of dull minds who can't think up anything on their own... that's no reason to turn to fantasy to explain why we can't imagine how these things were done in the past. It's the new superstition.
                            Ach, I'll get off my soap box now. But reeeeeely! Aliens. pah! We did it by ourselves and continue to create marvelous things. Thank heavens there's a hundered other channels to watch on the boob toob. Better yet, turn it off and go walk a mound.
                            -cp
                            --- On Tue, 2/14/12, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...> wrote:

                            From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
                            Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                            To: "d.ross.hamilton@..." <d.ross.hamilton@...>
                            Cc: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                            Date: Tuesday, February 14, 2012, 4:25 PM

                            Ross;
                            An artifact was found at Cahokia that closely matches the grid you have shown (please see link below).
                             
                             
                            From: Ross Hamilton <d.ross.hamilton@...>
                            To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 11:18 AM
                            Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz [1 Attachment]
                             
                            Hello All,
                            The subject of ancient metrology in North America  has met with the paradigms peculiar to archaeological isolationism. Britain's John Michell wrote extensively on the subject of world metrology in ancient times, although he avoided a discussion including the North American earthworks.I cannot help but wonder about the fact that trying to measure out earthworks seems too risky a proposal when so many other places around the world offer plenty of opportunities for more precise, quantitative study by stone.  Assuming Jim Sherz is familiar with Michell as well as Thom, let's examine some other points of view.   James A. Marshall, a surveyor from Chicago, performed probably the most extensive revisiting of "Hopewell" sites after Squier & Davis and later Cyrus Thomas. Marshall came up with several units of measure for the earthworks of the Ohio and Mississippi Valleys, the most famous of which was 1056 feet. Ray Hively and Robert Horn came up with approximately 1054 feet, and William F. Romain decided on 1053 (non decimalize). All these measures were produced from approximations over sprawling earthwork structures, and, as each study suggests, are not definitive. Greater accuracies were admitted by these same authors when grids were placed, distinguishing the earthworks in a way peculiar to our modern love of precision. In 2001, I published The Mystery of the Serpent Mound (Random House) wherein is demonstrated, also through the use of thoroughly conceived grids, Alexander Thom's Megalithic Yard (MY. 2.72 feet) as well as his Megalithic Rod (6.8 feet) in association with the Serpent Mound. In that same publication, an in-depth discussion of the possible relationship of the MY to the units proposed by Marshall, Hively and Horn, and Romain is presented.
                             
                            In the attached figure, the Serpent Mound rests upon a hexagonal grid, the perimeter of which is 720 of Thom's MY. Note the way the Serpent's measurements can be defined by Thom's measure due to the alnost cunning way the Serpent "fits" into the hexagonal matrix.   As a volunteer and caretaker at the Serpent Mound site, on a clear autumn afternoon about 4 years ago, and after we had just repaired a damaged path along the western cliffs of the effigy, we made an unusual discovery of an apparent megalithic-type standing stone. This discovery was published in Ancient American Magazine, volume 14, issue 89 (2011). Because we can now date the Serpent Mound by an astronomical method of association to the Middle Archaic Period (about 6-5000 years ago), and because we believe that standing stone (as illustrated in an animation video aired on the History Channel's Ancient Aliens series season opener last year, 2011), was a key to understanding the function of the Serpent Mound, we believe that Thom's measure may apply to that site. In order to present this properly however, the paradigm of abject isolationism must be removed, if only temporarily. We have seen the possibility of trade moving from the Great lakes Copper region tentatively to places far more distant than Hopewell or Adena trade routes allow. During this period of mining (about 5,000 years ago by approximation) it would seem that there may have been cultural influences from beyond American borders at work in the Ohio and Mississippi Valleys. For all we know with absolute certainty however, these influences dictating measure could just as well have moved from North America out. We just do not know what was going on anywhere in the world past 5,000 years ago, and I greatly suspect that our own ancient America may hold a grand key to grasping the architectures of ancient Britain, Mesoamerica, Greece, and Egypt as we progress with our researches.   Coming this summer: Star Mounds; Legacy of a Native American Mystery (North Atantic/Random House).
                             
                             
                          • charles bruns
                            lots can be accomplished with a string, rocks, & sticks.  chb     From: TRAYLOROO To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                            Message 13 of 20 , Feb 21, 2012
                            • 0 Attachment
                              lots can be accomplished with a string, rocks, & sticks.  chb
                               
                               

                              From: TRAYLOROO <trayloroo@...>
                              To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 3:54 PM
                              Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                               
                              Meanwhile, back on earth, we made a small model. 
                               
                              We then expanded that to a power of  10 .... or 20 .... or 40 ....              
                               
                              Where are your children tonight? 
                              A MUST-SEE VIDEO  click: 
                              From: Larry Hancock <hancocklarry40@...>
                              To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 2:30 PM
                              Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                               
                              Whether or not something is designed to be seen from the air, it still had to be constructed on the ground. I cannot quite picture someone hanging over the edge of the basket of a hot air balloon yelling "Move it that way. No, the other way." Or the same while suspended in a hallucinogenic trance. I would prefer to think no matter how it was designed to be viewed, someone with exceptional surveying skills was doing the actual work.

                              --- On Tue, 2/21/12, charles bruns <charbruns@...> wrote:

                              From: charles bruns <charbruns@...>
                              Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                              To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                              Date: Tuesday, February 21, 2012, 2:16 PM

                               
                              Kites? chb
                              From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
                              To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 12:12 PM
                              Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                               
                              The "Nazca lines" comes to mind in regard to this. Why did they bother making imagery that could only be seen from high up? How did they get the porportions for these images correct? I have heard the rumour that they used hot-air balloons?
                              From: charles bruns <charbruns@...>
                              To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 12:02 PM
                              Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                               
                              one aspect of these creations which can only me seen from the air is they hint the viewer is somewhere high overhead.  my Indian (dot) friend says it was for those who rode flying carpets in a civilization long ago.  chb
                              From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
                              To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 11:28 AM
                              Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                               
                              Agree with you Chris! It is an insult to our humans to dumb down the facts.  We are humans and not martiankind.
                               
                              However, time would be better spent researching native wisdom on astronomy and the connections with mythology.
                               
                              There is a lot of evidence that natives spent stargazing and contributed in ancient times to the present-day constellation names, configurations, and legends.
                              From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
                              To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 2:11 AM
                              Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                               
                              What pees me off more'n a tad are these fad TV shows about any mystery at all linked to Aliens Aliens!  I'm angered and insulted as a human to think somebody in a media castle has figured out how to dumb down the US Public even further and make money doing it! Claiming every fantastic, phenomenal wisdom our ancestors figured out all on their li'l lonesomes is completely due to reptilian or birdmen from outer space, is denegrating to the spectacular potential our species posesses. WE did it. WE figured out the geometry and the grids and the spatial abstractions to create wonderful works of engineering. Not some martian.
                               
                              Just because we've denied the proper educational challenges to our children, and we're reaping the results with a retarded generation of dull minds who can't think up anything on their own... that's no reason to turn to fantasy to explain why we can't imagine how these things were done in the past. It's the new superstition.
                              Ach, I'll get off my soap box now. But reeeeeely! Aliens. pah! We did it by ourselves and continue to create marvelous things. Thank heavens there's a hundered other channels to watch on the boob toob. Better yet, turn it off and go walk a mound.
                              -cp
                              --- On Tue, 2/14/12, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...> wrote:

                              From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
                              Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                              To: "d.ross.hamilton@..." <d.ross.hamilton@...>
                              Cc: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                              Date: Tuesday, February 14, 2012, 4:25 PM

                              Ross;
                              An artifact was found at Cahokia that closely matches the grid you have shown (please see link below).
                               
                               
                              From: Ross Hamilton <d.ross.hamilton@...>
                              To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 11:18 AM
                              Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz [1 Attachment]
                               
                              Hello All,
                              The subject of ancient metrology in North America  has met with the paradigms peculiar to archaeological isolationism. Britain's John Michell wrote extensively on the subject of world metrology in ancient times, although he avoided a discussion including the North American earthworks.I cannot help but wonder about the fact that trying to measure out earthworks seems too risky a proposal when so many other places around the world offer plenty of opportunities for more precise, quantitative study by stone.  Assuming Jim Sherz is familiar with Michell as well as Thom, let's examine some other points of view.   James A. Marshall, a surveyor from Chicago, performed probably the most extensive revisiting of "Hopewell" sites after Squier & Davis and later Cyrus Thomas. Marshall came up with several units of measure for the earthworks of the Ohio and Mississippi Valleys, the most famous of which was 1056 feet. Ray Hively and Robert Horn came up with approximately 1054 feet, and William F. Romain decided on 1053 (non decimalize). All these measures were produced from approximations over sprawling earthwork structures, and, as each study suggests, are not definitive. Greater accuracies were admitted by these same authors when grids were placed, distinguishing the earthworks in a way peculiar to our modern love of precision. In 2001, I published The Mystery of the Serpent Mound (Random House) wherein is demonstrated, also through the use of thoroughly conceived grids, Alexander Thom's Megalithic Yard (MY. 2.72 feet) as well as his Megalithic Rod (6.8 feet) in association with the Serpent Mound. In that same publication, an in-depth discussion of the possible relationship of the MY to the units proposed by Marshall, Hively and Horn, and Romain is presented.
                               
                              In the attached figure, the Serpent Mound rests upon a hexagonal grid, the perimeter of which is 720 of Thom's MY. Note the way the Serpent's measurements can be defined by Thom's measure due to the alnost cunning way the Serpent "fits" into the hexagonal matrix.   As a volunteer and caretaker at the Serpent Mound site, on a clear autumn afternoon about 4 years ago, and after we had just repaired a damaged path along the western cliffs of the effigy, we made an unusual discovery of an apparent megalithic-type standing stone. This discovery was published in Ancient American Magazine, volume 14, issue 89 (2011). Because we can now date the Serpent Mound by an astronomical method of association to the Middle Archaic Period (about 6-5000 years ago), and because we believe that standing stone (as illustrated in an animation video aired on the History Channel's Ancient Aliens series season opener last year, 2011), was a key to understanding the function of the Serpent Mound, we believe that Thom's measure may apply to that site. In order to present this properly however, the paradigm of abject isolationism must be removed, if only temporarily. We have seen the possibility of trade moving from the Great lakes Copper region tentatively to places far more distant than Hopewell or Adena trade routes allow. During this period of mining (about 5,000 years ago by approximation) it would seem that there may have been cultural influences from beyond American borders at work in the Ohio and Mississippi Valleys. For all we know with absolute certainty however, these influences dictating measure could just as well have moved from North America out. We just do not know what was going on anywhere in the world past 5,000 years ago, and I greatly suspect that our own ancient America may hold a grand key to grasping the architectures of ancient Britain, Mesoamerica, Greece, and Egypt as we progress with our researches.   Coming this summer: Star Mounds; Legacy of a Native American Mystery (North Atantic/Random House).
                               
                               
                            • Pamela Giese
                              John Michell and later Paul Deveraux proposed that the Nazca lines (and animal effigy mound groups) were constucted for shamanic travel --i.e. constructed on
                              Message 14 of 20 , Feb 21, 2012
                              • 0 Attachment
                                John Michell and later Paul Deveraux proposed that the Nazca lines (and animal effigy mound groups) were constucted for shamanic travel --i.e. constructed on the ground but as part of shamanic trance "viewed" from the air.   Similarly, astro-archaeologist Anthony Aveni researched the Nazca lines, expecting some sort of astronomical feature, but instead found a modern day culture with social dances that stepped out the patterns found in local weaving motifs.  This sounds a bit far fetched, unless you've woven or otherwise artistically created the same motifs again and again.
                                 
                                Like Anthony Aveni, I think it's important to visit a site before jumping to theories and conclusions.  I think of a friend of mine who had all sorts of theories about the Ohio Serpent Mound --most based on the assumption that it could only be viewed from aircraft.  When I pointed out how wrong the assumption was ---that you can see/envision the full serpent from the ground and only a slight rise (platform or tree) lets you see the entire serpent, this theories shattered...

                                --- On Tue, 21/2/12, Larry Hancock <hancocklarry40@...> wrote:

                                From: Larry Hancock <hancocklarry40@...>
                                Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                                To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Tuesday, 21 February, 2012, 21:30

                                 
                                Whether or not something is designed to be seen from the air, it still had to be constructed on the ground. I cannot quite picture someone hanging over the edge of the basket of a hot air balloon yelling "Move it that way. No, the other way." Or the same while suspended in a hallucinogenic trance. I would prefer to think no matter how it was designed to be viewed, someone with exceptional surveying skills was doing the actual work.

                                --- On Tue, 2/21/12, charles bruns <charbruns@...> wrote:

                                From: charles bruns <charbruns@...>
                                Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                                To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                                Date: Tuesday, February 21, 2012, 2:16 PM

                                 
                                Kites? chb

                                From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
                                To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 12:12 PM
                                Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                                 
                                The "Nazca lines" comes to mind in regard to this. Why did they bother making imagery that could only be seen from high up? How did they get the porportions for these images correct? I have heard the rumour that they used hot-air balloons?

                                From: charles bruns <charbruns@...>
                                To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 12:02 PM
                                Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                                 
                                one aspect of these creations which can only me seen from the air is they hint the viewer is somewhere high overhead.  my Indian (dot) friend says it was for those who rode flying carpets in a civilization long ago.  chb

                                From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
                                To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 11:28 AM
                                Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                                 
                                Agree with you Chris! It is an insult to our humans to dumb down the facts.  We are humans and not martiankind.
                                 
                                However, time would be better spent researching native wisdom on astronomy and the connections with mythology.
                                 
                                There is a lot of evidence that natives spent stargazing and contributed in ancient times to the present-day constellation names, configurations, and legends.

                                From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
                                To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 2:11 AM
                                Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                                 
                                What pees me off more'n a tad are these fad TV shows about any mystery at all linked to Aliens Aliens!  I'm angered and insulted as a human to think somebody in a media castle has figured out how to dumb down the US Public even further and make money doing it! Claiming every fantastic, phenomenal wisdom our ancestors figured out all on their li'l lonesomes is completely due to reptilian or birdmen from outer space, is denegrating to the spectacular potential our species posesses. WE did it. WE figured out the geometry and the grids and the spatial abstractions to create wonderful works of engineering. Not some martian.
                                 
                                Just because we've denied the proper educational challenges to our children, and we're reaping the results with a retarded generation of dull minds who can't think up anything on their own... that's no reason to turn to fantasy to explain why we can't imagine how these things were done in the past. It's the new superstition.
                                Ach, I'll get off my soap box now. But reeeeeely! Aliens. pah! We did it by ourselves and continue to create marvelous things. Thank heavens there's a hundered other channels to watch on the boob toob. Better yet, turn it off and go walk a mound.
                                -cp
                                --- On Tue, 2/14/12, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...> wrote:

                                From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
                                Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                                To: "d.ross.hamilton@..." <d.ross.hamilton@...>
                                Cc: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                                Date: Tuesday, February 14, 2012, 4:25 PM

                                Ross;
                                An artifact was found at Cahokia that closely matches the grid you have shown (please see link below).
                                 
                                 
                                From: Ross Hamilton <d.ross.hamilton@...>
                                To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 11:18 AM
                                Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz [1 Attachment]
                                 
                                Hello All,
                                The subject of ancient metrology in North America  has met with the paradigms peculiar to archaeological isolationism. Britain's John Michell wrote extensively on the subject of world metrology in ancient times, although he avoided a discussion including the North American earthworks.I cannot help but wonder about the fact that trying to measure out earthworks seems too risky a proposal when so many other places around the world offer plenty of opportunities for more precise, quantitative study by stone.  Assuming Jim Sherz is familiar with Michell as well as Thom, let's examine some other points of view.   James A. Marshall, a surveyor from Chicago, performed probably the most extensive revisiting of "Hopewell" sites after Squier & Davis and later Cyrus Thomas. Marshall came up with several units of measure for the earthworks of the Ohio and Mississippi Valleys, the most famous of which was 1056 feet. Ray Hively and Robert Horn came up with approximately 1054 feet, and William F. Romain decided on 1053 (non decimalize). All these measures were produced from approximations over sprawling earthwork structures, and, as each study suggests, are not definitive. Greater accuracies were admitted by these same authors when grids were placed, distinguishing the earthworks in a way peculiar to our modern love of precision. In 2001, I published The Mystery of the Serpent Mound (Random House) wherein is demonstrated, also through the use of thoroughly conceived grids, Alexander Thom's Megalithic Yard (MY. 2.72 feet) as well as his Megalithic Rod (6.8 feet) in association with the Serpent Mound. In that same publication, an in-depth discussion of the possible relationship of the MY to the units proposed by Marshall, Hively and Horn, and Romain is presented.
                                 
                                In the attached figure, the Serpent Mound rests upon a hexagonal grid, the perimeter of which is 720 of Thom's MY. Note the way the Serpent's measurements can be defined by Thom's measure due to the alnost cunning way the Serpent "fits" into the hexagonal matrix.   As a volunteer and caretaker at the Serpent Mound site, on a clear autumn afternoon about 4 years ago, and after we had just repaired a damaged path along the western cliffs of the effigy, we made an unusual discovery of an apparent megalithic-type standing stone. This discovery was published in Ancient American Magazine, volume 14, issue 89 (2011). Because we can now date the Serpent Mound by an astronomical method of association to the Middle Archaic Period (about 6-5000 years ago), and because we believe that standing stone (as illustrated in an animation video aired on the History Channel's Ancient Aliens series season opener last year, 2011), was a key to understanding the function of the Serpent Mound, we believe that Thom's measure may apply to that site. In order to present this properly however, the paradigm of abject isolationism must be removed, if only temporarily. We have seen the possibility of trade moving from the Great lakes Copper region tentatively to places far more distant than Hopewell or Adena trade routes allow. During this period of mining (about 5,000 years ago by approximation) it would seem that there may have been cultural influences from beyond American borders at work in the Ohio and Mississippi Valleys. For all we know with absolute certainty however, these influences dictating measure could just as well have moved from North America out. We just do not know what was going on anywhere in the world past 5,000 years ago, and I greatly suspect that our own ancient America may hold a grand key to grasping the architectures of ancient Britain, Mesoamerica, Greece, and Egypt as we progress with our researches.   Coming this summer: Star Mounds; Legacy of a Native American Mystery (North Atantic/Random House).
                                 
                                 
                              • Ted Sojka
                                Good thoughts Pamela, and thanks for adding to the discussion. Wonderful sharing of observations and connections. It is the thread that keeps us all weaving
                                Message 15 of 20 , Feb 21, 2012
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Good thoughts Pamela, and thanks for adding to the discussion.   Wonderful sharing of observations and connections. It is the thread that keeps us all weaving our thoughts.
                                  ted 
                                  On Feb 21, 2012, at 4:14 PM, Pamela Giese wrote:

                                   

                                  John Michell and later Paul Deveraux proposed that the Nazca lines (and animal effigy mound groups) were constucted for shamanic travel --i.e. constructed on the ground but as part of shamanic trance "viewed" from the air.   Similarly, astro-archaeologist Anthony Aveni researched the Nazca lines, expecting some sort of astronomical feature, but instead found a modern day culture with social dances that stepped out the patterns found in local weaving motifs.  This sounds a bit far fetched, unless you've woven or otherwise artistically created the same motifs again and again.
                                   
                                  Like Anthony Aveni, I think it's important to visit a site before jumping to theories and conclusions.  I think of a friend of mine who had all sorts of theories about the Ohio Serpent Mound --most based on the assumption that it could only be viewed from aircraft.  When I pointed out how wrong the assumption was ---that you can see/envision the full serpent from the ground and only a slight rise (platform or tree) lets you see the entire serpent, this theories shattered...

                                  --- On Tue, 21/2/12, Larry Hancock <hancocklarry40@...> wrote:

                                  From: Larry Hancock <hancocklarry40@...>
                                  Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                                  To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Tuesday, 21 February, 2012, 21:30

                                   
                                  Whether or not something is designed to be seen from the air, it still had to be constructed on the ground. I cannot quite picture someone hanging over the edge of the basket of a hot air balloon yelling "Move it that way. No, the other way." Or the same while suspended in a hallucinogenic trance. I would prefer to think no matter how it was designed to be viewed, someone with exceptional surveying skills was doing the actual work.

                                  --- On Tue, 2/21/12, charles bruns <charbruns@...> wrote:

                                  From: charles bruns <charbruns@...>
                                  Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                                  To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Date: Tuesday, February 21, 2012, 2:16 PM

                                   
                                  Kites? chb

                                  From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
                                  To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 12:12 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                                   
                                  The "Nazca lines" comes to mind in regard to this. Why did they bother making imagery that could only be seen from high up? How did they get the porportions for these images correct? I have heard the rumour that they used hot-air balloons?

                                  From: charles bruns <charbruns@...>
                                  To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 12:02 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                                   
                                  one aspect of these creations which can only me seen from the air is they hint the viewer is somewhere high overhead.  my Indian (dot) friend says it was for those who rode flying carpets in a civilization long ago.  chb

                                  From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
                                  To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 11:28 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                                   
                                  Agree with you Chris! It is an insult to our humans to dumb down the facts.  We are humans and not martiankind.
                                   
                                  However, time would be better spent researching native wisdom on astronomy and the connections with mythology.
                                   
                                  There is a lot of evidence that natives spent stargazing and contributed in ancient times to the present-day constellation names, configurations, and legends.

                                  From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
                                  To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 2:11 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                                   
                                  What pees me off more'n a tad are these fad TV shows about any mystery at all linked to Aliens Aliens!  I'm angered and insulted as a human to think somebody in a media castle has figured out how to dumb down the US Public even further and make money doing it! Claiming every fantastic, phenomenal wisdom our ancestors figured out all on their li'l lonesomes is completely due to reptilian or birdmen from outer space, is denegrating to the spectacular potential our species posesses. WE did it. WE figured out the geometry and the grids and the spatial abstractions to create wonderful works of engineering. Not some martian.
                                   
                                  Just because we've denied the proper educational challenges to our children, and we're reaping the results with a retarded generation of dull minds who can't think up anything on their own... that's no reason to turn to fantasy to explain why we can't imagine how these things were done in the past. It's the new superstition.
                                  Ach, I'll get off my soap box now. But reeeeeely! Aliens. pah! We did it by ourselves and continue to create marvelous things. Thank heavens there's a hundered other channels to watch on the boob toob. Better yet, turn it off and go walk a mound.
                                  -cp
                                  --- On Tue, 2/14/12, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...> wrote:

                                  From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
                                  Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                                  To: "d.ross.hamilton@..." <d.ross.hamilton@...>
                                  Cc: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Date: Tuesday, February 14, 2012, 4:25 PM

                                  Ross;
                                  An artifact was found at Cahokia that closely matches the grid you have shown (please see link below).
                                   
                                   
                                  From: Ross Hamilton <d.ross.hamilton@...>
                                  To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 11:18 AM
                                  Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz [1 Attachment]
                                   
                                  Hello All,
                                  The subject of ancient metrology in North America  has met with the paradigms peculiar to archaeological isolationism. Britain's John Michell wrote extensively on the subject of world metrology in ancient times, although he avoided a discussion including the North American earthworks.I cannot help but wonder about the fact that trying to measure out earthworks seems too risky a proposal when so many other places around the world offer plenty of opportunities for more precise, quantitative study by stone.  Assuming Jim Sherz is familiar with Michell as well as Thom, let's examine some other points of view.   James A. Marshall, a surveyor from Chicago, performed probably the most extensive revisiting of "Hopewell" sites after Squier & Davis and later Cyrus Thomas. Marshall came up with several units of measure for the earthworks of the Ohio and Mississippi Valleys, the most famous of which was 1056 feet. Ray Hively and Robert Horn came up with approximately 1054 feet, and William F. Romain decided on 1053 (non decimalize). All these measures were produced from approximations over sprawling earthwork structures, and, as each study suggests, are not definitive. Greater accuracies were admitted by these same authors when grids were placed, distinguishing the earthworks in a way peculiar to our modern love of precision. In 2001, I published The Mystery of the Serpent Mound (Random House) wherein is demonstrated, also through the use of thoroughly conceived grids, Alexander Thom's Megalithic Yard (MY. 2.72 feet) as well as his Megalithic Rod (6.8 feet) in association with the Serpent Mound. In that same publication, an in-depth discussion of the possible relationship of the MY to the units proposed by Marshall, Hively and Horn, and Romain is presented.
                                   
                                  In the attached figure, the Serpent Mound rests upon a hexagonal grid, the perimeter of which is 720 of Thom's MY. Note the way the Serpent's measurements can be defined by Thom's measure due to the alnost cunning way the Serpent "fits" into the hexagonal matrix.   As a volunteer and caretaker at the Serpent Mound site, on a clear autumn afternoon about 4 years ago, and after we had just repaired a damaged path along the western cliffs of the effigy, we made an unusual discovery of an apparent megalithic-type standing stone. This discovery was published in Ancient American Magazine, volume 14, issue 89 (2011). Because we can now date the Serpent Mound by an astronomical method of association to the Middle Archaic Period (about 6-5000 years ago), and because we believe that standing stone (as illustrated in an animation video aired on the History Channel's Ancient Aliens series season opener last year, 2011), was a key to understanding the function of the Serpent Mound, we believe that Thom's measure may apply to that site. In order to present this properly however, the paradigm of abject isolationism must be removed, if only temporarily. We have seen the possibility of trade moving from the Great lakes Copper region tentatively to places far more distant than Hopewell or Adena trade routes allow. During this period of mining (about 5,000 years ago by approximation) it would seem that there may have been cultural influences from beyond American borders at work in the Ohio and Mississippi Valleys. For all we know with absolute certainty however, these influences dictating measure could just as well have moved from North America out. We just do not know what was going on anywhere in the world past 5,000 years ago, and I greatly suspect that our own ancient America may hold a grand key to grasping the architectures of ancient Britain, Mesoamerica, Greece, and Egypt as we progress with our researches.   Coming this summer: Star Mounds; Legacy of a Native American Mystery (North Atantic/Random House).
                                   
                                   


                                • Larry Hancock
                                  Ancient surveying tool. ... From: charles bruns Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Feb 21, 2012
                                  Ancient surveying tool.

                                  --- On Tue, 2/21/12, charles bruns <charbruns@...> wrote:

                                  From: charles bruns <charbruns@...>
                                  Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                                  To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Date: Tuesday, February 21, 2012, 2:16 PM

                                   

                                  Kites? chb

                                  From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
                                  To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 12:12 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                                   
                                  The "Nazca lines" comes to mind in regard to this. Why did they bother making imagery that could only be seen from high up? How did they get the porportions for these images correct? I have heard the rumour that they used hot-air balloons?

                                  From: charles bruns <charbruns@...>
                                  To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 12:02 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                                   
                                  one aspect of these creations which can only me seen from the air is they hint the viewer is somewhere high overhead.  my Indian (dot) friend says it was for those who rode flying carpets in a civilization long ago.  chb

                                  From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
                                  To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 11:28 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                                   
                                  Agree with you Chris! It is an insult to our humans to dumb down the facts.  We are humans and not martiankind.
                                   
                                  However, time would be better spent researching native wisdom on astronomy and the connections with mythology.
                                   
                                  There is a lot of evidence that natives spent stargazing and contributed in ancient times to the present-day constellation names, configurations, and legends.

                                  From: Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...>
                                  To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Tuesday, February 21, 2012 2:11 AM
                                  Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                                   
                                  What pees me off more'n a tad are these fad TV shows about any mystery at all linked to Aliens Aliens!  I'm angered and insulted as a human to think somebody in a media castle has figured out how to dumb down the US Public even further and make money doing it! Claiming every fantastic, phenomenal wisdom our ancestors figured out all on their li'l lonesomes is completely due to reptilian or birdmen from outer space, is denegrating to the spectacular potential our species posesses. WE did it. WE figured out the geometry and the grids and the spatial abstractions to create wonderful works of engineering. Not some martian.
                                   
                                  Just because we've denied the proper educational challenges to our children, and we're reaping the results with a retarded generation of dull minds who can't think up anything on their own... that's no reason to turn to fantasy to explain why we can't imagine how these things were done in the past. It's the new superstition.
                                  Ach, I'll get off my soap box now. But reeeeeely! Aliens. pah! We did it by ourselves and continue to create marvelous things. Thank heavens there's a hundered other channels to watch on the boob toob. Better yet, turn it off and go walk a mound.
                                  -cp
                                  --- On Tue, 2/14/12, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...> wrote:

                                  From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
                                  Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                                  To: "d.ross.hamilton@..." <d.ross.hamilton@...>
                                  Cc: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Date: Tuesday, February 14, 2012, 4:25 PM

                                  Ross;
                                  An artifact was found at Cahokia that closely matches the grid you have shown (please see link below).
                                   
                                   
                                  From: Ross Hamilton <d.ross.hamilton@...>
                                  To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 11:18 AM
                                  Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz [1 Attachment]
                                   
                                  Hello All,
                                  The subject of ancient metrology in North America  has met with the paradigms peculiar to archaeological isolationism. Britain's John Michell wrote extensively on the subject of world metrology in ancient times, although he avoided a discussion including the North American earthworks.I cannot help but wonder about the fact that trying to measure out earthworks seems too risky a proposal when so many other places around the world offer plenty of opportunities for more precise, quantitative study by stone.  Assuming Jim Sherz is familiar with Michell as well as Thom, let's examine some other points of view.   James A. Marshall, a surveyor from Chicago, performed probably the most extensive revisiting of "Hopewell" sites after Squier & Davis and later Cyrus Thomas. Marshall came up with several units of measure for the earthworks of the Ohio and Mississippi Valleys, the most famous of which was 1056 feet. Ray Hively and Robert Horn came up with approximately 1054 feet, and William F. Romain decided on 1053 (non decimalize). All these measures were produced from approximations over sprawling earthwork structures, and, as each study suggests, are not definitive. Greater accuracies were admitted by these same authors when grids were placed, distinguishing the earthworks in a way peculiar to our modern love of precision. In 2001, I published The Mystery of the Serpent Mound (Random House) wherein is demonstrated, also through the use of thoroughly conceived grids, Alexander Thom's Megalithic Yard (MY. 2.72 feet) as well as his Megalithic Rod (6.8 feet) in association with the Serpent Mound. In that same publication, an in-depth discussion of the possible relationship of the MY to the units proposed by Marshall, Hively and Horn, and Romain is presented.
                                   
                                  In the attached figure, the Serpent Mound rests upon a hexagonal grid, the perimeter of which is 720 of Thom's MY. Note the way the Serpent's measurements can be defined by Thom's measure due to the alnost cunning way the Serpent "fits" into the hexagonal matrix.   As a volunteer and caretaker at the Serpent Mound site, on a clear autumn afternoon about 4 years ago, and after we had just repaired a damaged path along the western cliffs of the effigy, we made an unusual discovery of an apparent megalithic-type standing stone. This discovery was published in Ancient American Magazine, volume 14, issue 89 (2011). Because we can now date the Serpent Mound by an astronomical method of association to the Middle Archaic Period (about 6-5000 years ago), and because we believe that standing stone (as illustrated in an animation video aired on the History Channel's Ancient Aliens series season opener last year, 2011), was a key to understanding the function of the Serpent Mound, we believe that Thom's measure may apply to that site. In order to present this properly however, the paradigm of abject isolationism must be removed, if only temporarily. We have seen the possibility of trade moving from the Great lakes Copper region tentatively to places far more distant than Hopewell or Adena trade routes allow. During this period of mining (about 5,000 years ago by approximation) it would seem that there may have been cultural influences from beyond American borders at work in the Ohio and Mississippi Valleys. For all we know with absolute certainty however, these influences dictating measure could just as well have moved from North America out. We just do not know what was going on anywhere in the world past 5,000 years ago, and I greatly suspect that our own ancient America may hold a grand key to grasping the architectures of ancient Britain, Mesoamerica, Greece, and Egypt as we progress with our researches.   Coming this summer: Star Mounds; Legacy of a Native American Mystery (North Atantic/Random House).
                                   
                                   
                                • Ross Hamilton
                                  Hi Chris, I cited the Ancient Aliens show on that segment because the subject was not attributed to aliens, but to Native Americans. I think you might enjoy
                                  Message 17 of 20 , Feb 22, 2012
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hi Chris,
                                     
                                    I cited the Ancient Aliens show on that segment because the subject was not attributed to aliens, but to Native Americans. I think you might enjoy watching it. It's just the name of the show--not necessarily the content for all segments.
                                    Also, I've noticed that only Vince commented on subject. Thanks Vince.
                                    Ross

                                    On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 3:11 AM, Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...> wrote:
                                     

                                    What pees me off more'n a tad are these fad TV shows about any mystery at all linked to Aliens Aliens!  I'm angered and insulted as a human to think somebody in a media castle has figured out how to dumb down the US Public even further and make money doing it! Claiming every fantastic, phenomenal wisdom our ancestors figured out all on their li'l lonesomes is completely due to reptilian or birdmen from outer space, is denegrating to the spectacular potential our species posesses. WE did it. WE figured out the geometry and the grids and the spatial abstractions to create wonderful works of engineering. Not some martian.
                                     
                                    Just because we've denied the proper educational challenges to our children, and we're reaping the results with a retarded generation of dull minds who can't think up anything on their own... that's no reason to turn to fantasy to explain why we can't imagine how these things were done in the past. It's the new superstition.
                                    Ach, I'll get off my soap box now. But reeeeeely! Aliens. pah! We did it by ourselves and continue to create marvelous things. Thank heavens there's a hundered other channels to watch on the boob toob. Better yet, turn it off and go walk a mound.
                                    -cp

                                    --- On Tue, 2/14/12, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...> wrote:

                                    From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
                                    Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz
                                    To: "d.ross.hamilton@..." <d.ross.hamilton@...>
                                    Cc: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Date: Tuesday, February 14, 2012, 4:25 PM



                                    Ross;
                                    An artifact was found at Cahokia that closely matches the grid you have shown (please see link below).
                                     
                                     

                                    From: Ross Hamilton <d.ross.hamilton@...>
                                    To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Tuesday, February 14, 2012 11:18 AM
                                    Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re: James Sherz [1 Attachment]

                                     
                                    Hello All,

                                    The subject of ancient metrology in North America  has met with the paradigms peculiar to archaeological isolationism. Britain's John Michell wrote extensively on the subject of world metrology in ancient times, although he avoided a discussion including the North American earthworks.I cannot help but wonder about the fact that trying to measure out earthworks seems too risky a proposal when so many other places around the world offer plenty of opportunities for more precise, quantitative study by stone.  Assuming Jim Sherz is familiar with Michell as well as Thom, let's examine some other points of view.
                                     
                                    James A. Marshall, a surveyor from Chicago, performed probably the most extensive revisiting of "Hopewell" sites after Squier & Davis and later Cyrus Thomas. Marshall came up with several units of measure for the earthworks of the Ohio and Mississippi Valleys, the most famous of which was 1056 feet. Ray Hively and Robert Horn came up with approximately 1054 feet, and William F. Romain decided on 1053 (non decimalize). All these measures were produced from approximations over sprawling earthwork structures, and, as each study suggests, are not definitive. Greater accuracies were admitted by these same authors when grids were placed, distinguishing the earthworks in a way peculiar to our modern love of precision. In 2001, I published The Mystery of the Serpent Mound (Random House) wherein is demonstrated, also through the use of thoroughly conceived grids, Alexander Thom's Megalithic Yard (MY. 2.72 feet) as well as his Megalithic Rod (6.8 feet) in association with the Serpent Mound. In that same publication, an in-depth discussion of the possible relationship of the MY to the units proposed by Marshall, Hively and Horn, and Romain is presented.
                                     
                                    In the attached figure, the Serpent Mound rests upon a hexagonal grid, the perimeter of which is 720 of Thom's MY. Note the way the Serpent's measurements can be defined by Thom's measure due to the alnost cunning way the Serpent "fits" into the hexagonal matrix.
                                     
                                    As a volunteer and caretaker at the Serpent Mound site, on a clear autumn afternoon about 4 years ago, and after we had just repaired a damaged path along the western cliffs of the effigy, we made an unusual discovery of an apparent megalithic-type standing stone. This discovery was published in Ancient American Magazine, volume 14, issue 89 (2011). Because we can now date the Serpent Mound by an astronomical method of association to the Middle Archaic Period (about 6-5000 years ago), and because we believe that standing stone (as illustrated in an animation video aired on the History Channel's Ancient Aliens series season opener last year, 2011), was a key to understanding the function of the Serpent Mound, we believe that Thom's measure may apply to that site. In order to present this properly however, the paradigm of abject isolationism must be removed, if only temporarily. We have seen the possibility of trade moving from the Great lakes Copper region tentatively to places far more distant than Hopewell or Adena trade routes allow. During this period of mining (about 5,000 years ago by approximation) it would seem that there may have been cultural influences from beyond American borders at work in the Ohio and Mississippi Valleys. For all we know with absolute certainty however, these influences dictating measure could just as well have moved from North America out. We just do not know what was going on anywhere in the world past 5,000 years ago, and I greatly suspect that our own ancient America may hold a grand key to grasping the architectures of ancient Britain, Mesoamerica, Greece, and Egypt as we progress with our researches.
                                     
                                    Coming this summer: Star Mounds; Legacy of a Native American Mystery (North Atantic/Random House).
                                     
                                     





                                  • jpscherz
                                    All, Picking up an old thread titled Metrology in Ancient America, weeks ago I I intended to, but did not get around to commenting on a very well written post
                                    Message 18 of 20 , Apr 20, 2012
                                    • 0 Attachment

                                      All,


                                      Picking up an old thread titled Metrology in Ancient America, weeks ago I I intended to, but did not get around to commenting on a very well written post sent to this group by member Ross Hamilton that only received one comment (see post and comments at the base of this message).

                                       The DVR on my television automatically records pre-selected programs on the History Channel, PBS, BBC, etc., and with several research friends who stopped by recently, we watched the Ancient Aliens (& the Old West) program on the History Channel, Episode #21, referred to in the comment.   Beginning 46 minutes into the program (including commercials) is footage of the Great Serpent Mound in Adams County, Ohio  and interviews of AWS member Ross Hamilton as well as a number of representatives of various tribes speaking about petroglyphs, legends about possibilities of ancient 'aliens'  or 'star peoples'.  Not long ago (after the weather turned unseasonably summer-like when it was still winter here), I re-started attending outdoor campfire meetings with recovering Native friends on various reservation  lands east of here, not far from Lake Michigan.  No one there scoffs at legends of star beings within their traditions.  I also see no contradictions about my own ancestry coming  here by way of the seas and the stars, either. I do not by any means believe my own lineage to be at the pinnacle of or exemplify socio-cultural 'advancement', either, nor technologically wise in how we have interacted with Nature and fellow human beings over the millinnea.  This belief has played a major role in my search and why I earnestly step out of my comfort zones to enjoy the privilege of being able to civilly engaging with people and groups such as I can here at Ancient global Waterways.  And in my helping with conferences around the world that are open to possibilities based strongly within the Sciences, yet given life--- enspirited from ancient teachings of wisdom keepers aound the world who maintain reverence with the Earth and it's inhabitants.


                                      Anyway, toward the top of my bucket list is a longtime desire to spend a few days at the Great Serpent Mound in Ohio.  So this week searching the Internet this week for a primitive camp site in a natural setting very close to the Serpent Mound, I ran a cross information about a 2012 Summer Solstice event there, which I am considering attending if my old car can make it that far by then.

                                      Below too is a link to the Friends of Serpent Mounds association and, to my surprise, information I discovered about the May 1st release of Ross Hamilton's new book.  Please, all of you members here, keep this group posted specifically and with subject headings on things you members do that relate to each other and/or this YahooGroup!  Especially your related events, publications, radio interviews, television programs, conferences, and specific details as to what part of the world/nearby waterway you are referring.  Keeping members informed of each other and interconnecting intra- and intercontinental waterway localities is one of the main intentions I carried at the top of my bucket list years ago in being one of the original founders of this society of international researchers and friends. I have had a wooden sign on the back window of my car for at least a decade or two "ancient Waterways Society".  And another wooden sign at my kitchen door,  "Ancient Waterways Cafe" that faces the mighty Wisconsin River across the street.  This sign too is the starting point in my relationship with all who stop here for a meal or an overnight.  And seems to be at the roots of who I have become since my children have all moved away. 

                                      Below, too, I scanned and pasted reviews of Ross' book by Robert Bauval and others.  Another post is coming your way soon as i can get to it that I accidently discovered last night after Prof. jim Scherz left.  It is a blogtalkradio interview of member Martin Carriere by member Will Blue Otter.

                                      I do hope you members are interested in each other regardless of what part of the world you reside.  Are we not all inter-related, after these many years together?  Or, as Cal so aptly put it a few weeks ago in a post, are we not all linked way, way back within our human origins?

                                      Poor momma here.  Just think how much we are missing of other members' efforts and accomplishments within this Society, along ancient global waterways.... I think many of  our ancestors knew the old waterway highways over great distances and those they paddled upon more intimately than we busy contemporaries do.

                                      If there is inexpensive camping in a pristine setting near the Ohio Serpent Mound, perhaps one or more of you might wish to meet me there for a few days for the Summer Solstice gathering, or in the fall...

                                      Susan

                                      Summer Solstice Celebration 2012 at the Great Serpent Mound in Ohio:
                                      http://www.serpentmound.org/festival.html

                                      Friends of Serpent Mounds 2012 Events Page:

                                      http://www.serpentmound.org/events.html

                                      Star Mounds: Legacy of a Native American Mystery [Paperback]
                                      Ross Hamilton (Author)

                                      List Price:$29.95
                                      Price:$19.37 & eligible for FREE Super Saver Shippingon orders over $25. Details
                                      You Save:$10.58 (35%)
                                      Pre-order Price Guarantee. Learn more.
                                      This title will be released on May 1, 2012.
                                      Pre-order now!
                                      Ships from and sold by Amazon.com. Gift-wrap available.

                                      Book Description

                                      Publication Date: May 1, 2012
                                      Star Mounds is a full-color illustrated study of the precolonial monuments of the greater Ohio Valley, woven together with over fifty "medicine stories" inspired by Native American mythology that demonstrate the depth of the knowledge held by indigenous peoples about the universe they lived in.
                                       
                                      The earthworks of the region have long mystified and intrigued scholars, archeologists, and anthropologists with their impressive size and design. The landscape practices of pioneer families destroyed much of them in the 1700s, but, during the first half of the 1800s, some serious mapmaking expeditions were able to record their locations. Utilizing many nineteenth-century maps as a base—including those of the gentlemen explorers Ephraim Squier and Edwin Davis—author Ross Hamilton reveals the meaning and purpose of these antique monuments.
                                       
                                      Together with these maps, Hamilton applies new theories and geometrical formulas to the earthworks to demonstrate that the Ohio Valley was the setting of a manitou system, an interactive organization of specially shaped villages that was home to a sophisticated society of architects and astronomers. The author retells over fifty ancient stories based on Native American myth such as "The One-Eyed Man" and "The Story of How Mischief Became Hare" that clearly indicate how knowledgeable the valley's inhabitants were about the constellations and the movement of the stars. Finally, Hamilton relates the spiritual culture of the valley's early inhabitants to a kind of golden age of humanity when people lived in harmony with the Earth and Sky, and looks forward to a time when our own culture can foster a similar "spiritual technology" and life-giving relationship with nature.

                                      Special Offers and Product Promotions

                                      • Pre-order Price Guarantee! Order now and if the Amazon.com price decreases between your order time and the end of the day of the release date, you'll receive the lowest price. Here's how (restrictions apply)E O. 1850-1919 RandallPaperback. 

                                      Editorial Reviews

                                      Review

                                      "Ross Hamilton's Star Mounds: Legacy of a Native American Mystery is a must-read for all who are interested in ancient star lores."—Robert Bauval, author of Black Genesis: The Prehistoric Origins of Ancient Egypt 
                                       "Ross Hamilton's Star Mounds is a unique, rich study of America's mysterious earthworks and the brilliant insights built into them by the geniuses who lived here in ancient times. This book's very existence and the fact that someone had the tenacity, vision, and understanding—born of a lifetime of study—to produce such an unprecedented work, excites me to the core. The artistry of the presentation, the astronomical and geomantic diagrams, and the beautiful stories are a feast for those who truly want to understand the soul of ancient America. This book is the key! I look forward to years of reading and rereading this amazing book."—John Major Jenkins, author of The 2012 Story: The Myths, Fallacies, and Truth Behind the Most Intriguing Date in History
                                      "There is an old Lakota story that says `always count the stars, for if we stop counting the stars we will cease to exist.' As beings of prescience, we must bring the inherent star knowledge above to Mother Earth below. Relationships come and go, but the knowledge, language, and imagination of Turtle Island's wisdom is never lost, however oblivious many are to its presence. Star Mounds: Legacy of a Native American Mystery has lit a fire for those who yearn for their originations."—Tiokasin Ghosthorse, Lakota leader and host of First Voices Indigenous Radio on WBAI New York/Pacifica Radio
                                      "In the long-awaited sequel to The Mystery of the Serpent Mound, Ross Hamilton delves deeper into the spiritual science and sacred geometry of the Ohio Valley of millennia past. Focusing on the Great Serpent effigy as hub and power center, Hamilton extends his meticulous research to include the surrounding earthworks that together form a cosmological zodiac. In the spirit of `as above, so below,' this `holy machine' once facilitated interactions between energies of earth and sky to ultimately allow for communion with the star ancestors. In language lucid and poetic, … his book details solar, lunar, and stellar alignments and roots them in time through the precession of the equinoxes. Star Mounds is a huge leap forward for archaeoastronomy and a crucial key to understanding the complex beauty of these enigmatic earthworks.—Gary A. David, author of The Kivas of Heaven: Ancient Hopi Starlore
                                      "Ross Hamilton's poetic analysis of the earthworks of the Ohio landscape is unique, inquisitive, and carried out in a gentle and respectful manner, with an emphasis on Native American mythology. Only the late John Michell could have created such a visionary report into the geometry, geomancy, astronomy, and mythology of this mysterious prehistoric landscape. Serpent Mound chose a wise representative to reveal her innermost secrets; many of her mysteries, long lost in the depths of time, have been bought back into the light. Star Mounds has also reopened the debate on ancient American history and reveals a lost enchanted landscape spread out over a wide area (even in present-day golf courses and residential areas). It gives the reader an insight into the prehistoric minds and hearts of a sophisticated team of intelligent, thoughtful and inspired architects, whose engineering and energetic fingerprints are still evident in the land thousands of years later."—Hugh Newman, organizer of the Megalithomania Conferences and author of Earth Grids: The Secret Patterns of Gaia's Sacred Sites
                                      "Ross revives the wisdom of a forgotten tradition.… It is my hope that Ross's work and its success will reenergize these sites, so they can shine like the stars they were linked with."—Philip Coppens, author of The Ancient Alien Question: A New Inquiry Into the Existence, Evidence, and Influence of Ancient Visitors

                                      About the Author

                                      Born in 1948 on Long Island, New York, Ross Hamilton has lived in the greater Cincinnati, Ohio area since the age of seven. Fascinated by American Indian history from childhood, Hamilton has devoted his life to bringing to light the lost history of the North American continent. He has worked with activist Vine Deloria Jr., the former executive director of the National Congress of American Indians; Floyd "Red Crow" Westerman; and Iroquois chief Jake Swamp. He frequently gives interviews on the subject of the star mounds, most recently on the History Channel show Ancient Aliens (http://bit.ly/qNVsKE).

                                      --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Ross Hamilton <d.ross.hamilton@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Hi Chris,
                                      >
                                      > I cited the Ancient Aliens show on that segment because the subject was not
                                      > attributed to aliens, but to Native Americans. I think you might enjoy
                                      > watching it. It's just the name of the show--not necessarily the content
                                      > for all segments.
                                      > Also, I've noticed that only Vince commented on subject. Thanks Vince.
                                      > Ross
                                      >
                                      > On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 3:11 AM, Chris Patenaude
                                      > yacrispyubetcha@...wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > **
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > What pees me off more'n a tad are these fad TV shows about any mystery
                                      > > at all linked to Aliens Aliens! I'm angered and insulted as a human to
                                      > > think somebody in a media castle has figured out how to dumb down the US
                                      > > Public even further and make money doing it! Claiming every fantastic,
                                      > > phenomenal wisdom our ancestors figured out *all on their li'l lonesomes*is completely due to reptilian or birdmen from outer space, is denegrating
                                      > > to the spectacular potential our species posesses. WE did it. WE figured
                                      > > out the geometry and the grids and the spatial abstractions to create
                                      > > wonderful works of engineering. Not some martian.
                                      > >
                                      > > Just because we've denied the proper educational challenges to our
                                      > > children, and we're reaping the results with a retarded generation of dull
                                      > > minds who can't think up anything on their own... that's no reason to turn
                                      > > to fantasy to explain why we can't imagine how these things were done in
                                      > > the past. It's the new superstition.
                                      > > Ach, I'll get off my soap box now. But reeeeeely! Aliens. pah! We did it
                                      > > by ourselves and continue to create marvelous things. Thank heavens there's
                                      > > a hundered other channels to watch on the boob toob. Better yet, turn it
                                      > > off and go walk a mound.
                                      > > -cp
                                      > >
                                      > > --- On *Tue, 2/14/12, Vincent Barrows v_barrows@...* wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > From: Vincent Barrows v_barrows@...
                                      > > Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re:
                                      > > James Sherz
                                      > > To: "d.ross.hamilton@..." d.ross.hamilton@...
                                      > > Cc: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <
                                      > > ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > Date: Tuesday, February 14, 2012, 4:25 PM
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Ross;
                                      > > An artifact was found at Cahokia that closely matches the grid you have
                                      > > shown (please see link below).
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/TABLETS/Cahokia/11MS1330/?start=all
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > *From:* Ross Hamilton d.ross.hamilton@...
                                      > > *To:* ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > *Sent:* Tuesday, February 14, 2012 11:18 AM
                                      > > *Subject:* [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re:
                                      > > James Sherz [1 Attachment]
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Hello All,
                                      > >
                                      > > The subject of ancient metrology in North America has met with the
                                      > > paradigms peculiar to archaeological isolationism. Britain's John
                                      > > Michell wrote extensively on the subject of world metrology in ancient
                                      > > times, although he avoided a discussion including the North American
                                      > > earthworks.I cannot help but wonder about the fact that trying to measure
                                      > > out earthworks seems too risky a proposal when so many other places around
                                      > > the world offer plenty of opportunities for more precise, quantitative
                                      > > study by stone. Assuming Jim Sherz is familiar with Michell as well as
                                      > > Thom, let's examine some other points of view.
                                      > >
                                      > > James A. Marshall, a surveyor from Chicago, performed probably the most
                                      > > extensive revisiting of "Hopewell" sites after Squier & Davis and later
                                      > > Cyrus Thomas. Marshall came up with several units of measure for the
                                      > > earthworks of the Ohio and Mississippi Valleys, the most famous of which
                                      > > was 1056 feet. Ray Hively and Robert Horn came up with approximately 1054
                                      > > feet, and William F. Romain decided on 1053 (non decimalize). All these
                                      > > measures were produced from approximations over sprawling earthwork
                                      > > structures, and, as each study suggests, are not definitive. Greater
                                      > > accuracies were admitted by these same authors when grids were placed,
                                      > > distinguishing the earthworks in a way peculiar to our modern love of
                                      > > precision. In 2001, I published The Mystery of the Serpent Mound (Random
                                      > > House) wherein is demonstrated, also through the use of thoroughly
                                      > > conceived grids, Alexander Thom's Megalithic Yard (MY. 2.72 feet) as well
                                      > > as his Megalithic Rod (6.8 feet) in association with the Serpent Mound. In
                                      > > that same publication, an in-depth discussion of the possible relationship
                                      > > of the MY to the units proposed by Marshall, Hively and Horn, and Romain is
                                      > > presented.
                                      > >
                                      > > In the attached figure, the Serpent Mound rests upon a hexagonal grid, the
                                      > > perimeter of which is 720 of Thom's MY. Note the way the Serpent's
                                      > > measurements can be defined by Thom's measure due to the alnost cunning
                                      > > way the Serpent "fits" into the hexagonal matrix.
                                      > >
                                      > > As a volunteer and caretaker at the Serpent Mound site, on a clear autumn
                                      > > afternoon about 4 years ago, and after we had just repaired a damaged path
                                      > > along the western cliffs of the effigy, we made an unusual discovery of an
                                      > > apparent megalithic-type standing stone. This discovery was published in
                                      > > Ancient American Magazine, volume 14, issue 89 (2011). Because we can now
                                      > > date the Serpent Mound by an astronomical method of association to the
                                      > > Middle Archaic Period (about 6-5000 years ago), and because we believe that
                                      > > standing stone (as illustrated in an animation video aired on the History
                                      > > Channel's Ancient Aliens series season opener last year, 2011), was a key
                                      > > to understanding the function of the Serpent Mound, we believe that Thom's
                                      > > measure may apply to that site. In order to present this properly however,
                                      > > the paradigm of abject isolationism must be removed, if only temporarily.
                                      > > We have seen the possibility of trade moving from the Great lakes Copper
                                      > > region tentatively to places far more distant than Hopewell or Adena trade
                                      > > routes allow. During this period of mining (about 5,000 years ago by
                                      > > approximation) it would seem that there may have been cultural influences
                                      > > from beyond American borders at work in the Ohio and Mississippi Valleys.
                                      > > For all we know with absolute certainty however, these influences dictating
                                      > > measure could just as well have moved from North America out. We just do
                                      > > not know what was going on anywhere in the world past 5,000 years ago, and
                                      > > I greatly suspect that our own ancient America may hold a grand key to
                                      > > grasping the architectures of ancient Britain, Mesoamerica, Greece, and
                                      > > Egypt as we progress with our researches.
                                      > >
                                      > > Coming this summer: Star Mounds; Legacy of a Native American Mystery
                                      > > (North Atantic/Random House).
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                    • Pamela Giese
                                      Hello Jim & Susan,   If you re going to the Great Serpent Mound for Summer Solstice, try to catch the Solstice Sun Rise at Fort Ancient, about 30 miles
                                      Message 19 of 20 , Apr 20, 2012
                                      • 1 Attachment
                                      • 594 KB
                                      Hello Jim & Susan,
                                       
                                      If you're going to the Great Serpent Mound for Summer Solstice, try to catch the Solstice Sun Rise at Fort Ancient, about 30 miles away.  The Serpent Mound has a sunset alignment, so you won't miss anything by catching the sunrise at Fort Ancient.
                                       
                                      I've seen some of the major Mayan sunrise alignments, and only they compare with Fort Ancient (nothing like it here in the U.K.).  The way the sunrise skims across the alignment mounds and blazes is really spectacular.  Sorry my attached image isn't better.  There's always a small crowd at the Fort Ancient site to see the sunrise.  There's both  summer and winter alignments.   In recent years, a calendar woodhenge-type wheel and serpent mound effigies have been found at Fort Ancient ---so it's definitely a place with a lot more mystery left to unfold.
                                       
                                      For me, I'll probably be seeing in the summer solstice in Northumbria, probably the Goat Stones stone circle.   If anyone will be up here Newcastle, UK ways, drop me a line.
                                       
                                      Pam
                                      --- On Fri, 20/4/12, jpscherz <jpscherz@...> wrote:

                                      From: jpscherz <jpscherz@...>
                                      Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] A late comment re: the Great Serpent mound and Ross' earlier post
                                      To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                                      Date: Friday, 20 April, 2012, 21:24

                                       

                                      All,


                                      Picking up an old thread titled Metrology in Ancient America, weeks ago I I intended to, but did not get around to commenting on a very well written post sent to this group by member Ross Hamilton that only received one comment (see post and comments at the base of this message).

                                       The DVR on my television automatically records pre-selected programs on the History Channel, PBS, BBC, etc., and with several research friends who stopped by recently, we watched the Ancient Aliens (& the Old West) program on the History Channel, Episode #21, referred to in the comment.   Beginning 46 minutes into the program (including commercials) is footage of the Great Serpent Mound in Adams County, Ohio  and interviews of AWS member Ross Hamilton as well as a number of representatives of various tribes speaking about petroglyphs, legends about possibilities of ancient 'aliens'  or 'star peoples'.  Not long ago (after the weather turned unseasonably summer-like when it was still winter here), I re-started attending outdoor campfire meetings with recovering Native friends on various reservation  lands east of here, not far from Lake Michigan.  No one there scoffs at legends of star beings within their traditions.  I also see no contradictions about my own ancestry coming  here by way of the seas and the stars, either. I do not by any means believe my own lineage to be at the pinnacle of or exemplify socio-cultural 'advancement', either, nor technologically wise in how we have interacted with Nature and fellow human beings over the millinnea.  This belief has played a major role in my search and why I earnestly step out of my comfort zones to enjoy the privilege of being able to civilly engaging with people and groups such as I can here at Ancient global Waterways.  And in my helping with conferences around the world that are open to possibilities based strongly within the Sciences, yet given life--- enspirited from ancient teachings of wisdom keepers aound the world who maintain reverence with the Earth and it's inhabitants.


                                      Anyway, toward the top of my bucket list is a longtime desire to spend a few days at the Great Serpent Mound in Ohio.  So this week searching the Internet this week for a primitive camp site in a natural setting very close to the Serpent Mound, I ran a cross information about a 2012 Summer Solstice event there, which I am considering attending if my old car can make it that far by then.

                                      Below too is a link to the Friends of Serpent Mounds association and, to my surprise, information I discovered about the May 1st release of Ross Hamilton's new book.  Please, all of you members here, keep this group posted specifically and with subject headings on things you members do that relate to each other and/or this YahooGroup!  Especially your related events, publications, radio interviews, television programs, conferences, and specific details as to what part of the world/nearby waterway you are referring.  Keeping members informed of each other and interconnecting intra- and intercontinental waterway localities is one of the main intentions I carried at the top of my bucket list years ago in being one of the original founders of this society of international researchers and friends. I have had a wooden sign on the back window of my car for at least a decade or two "ancient Waterways Society".  And another wooden sign at my kitchen door,  "Ancient Waterways Cafe" that faces the mighty Wisconsin River across the street.  This sign too is the starting point in my relationship with all who stop here for a meal or an overnight.  And seems to be at the roots of who I have become since my children have all moved away. 

                                      Below, too, I scanned and pasted reviews of Ross' book by Robert Bauval and others.  Another post is coming your way soon as i can get to it that I accidently discovered last night after Prof. jim Scherz left.  It is a blogtalkradio interview of member Martin Carriere by member Will Blue Otter.

                                      I do hope you members are interested in each other regardless of what part of the world you reside.  Are we not all inter-related, after these many years together?  Or, as Cal so aptly put it a few weeks ago in a post, are we not all linked way, way back within our human origins?

                                      Poor momma here.  Just think how much we are missing of other members' efforts and accomplishments within this Society, along ancient global waterways.... I think many of  our ancestors knew the old waterway highways over great distances and those they paddled upon more intimately than we busy contemporaries do.

                                      If there is inexpensive camping in a pristine setting near the Ohio Serpent Mound, perhaps one or more of you might wish to meet me there for a few days for the Summer Solstice gathering, or in the fall...

                                      Susan

                                      Summer Solstice Celebration 2012 at the Great Serpent Mound in Ohio:
                                      http://www.serpentmound.org/festival.html

                                      Friends of Serpent Mounds 2012 Events Page:

                                      http://www.serpentmound.org/events.html

                                      Star Mounds: Legacy of a Native American Mystery [Paperback]
                                      Ross Hamilton (Author)

                                      List Price:$29.95
                                      Price:$19.37 & eligible for FREE Super Saver Shippingon orders over $25. Details
                                      You Save:$10.58 (35%)
                                      Pre-order Price Guarantee. Learn more.
                                      This title will be released on May 1, 2012.
                                      Pre-order now!
                                      Ships from and sold by Amazon.com. Gift-wrap available.

                                      Book Description

                                      Publication Date: May 1, 2012
                                      Star Mounds is a full-color illustrated study of the precolonial monuments of the greater Ohio Valley, woven together with over fifty "medicine stories" inspired by Native American mythology that demonstrate the depth of the knowledge held by indigenous peoples about the universe they lived in.
                                       
                                      The earthworks of the region have long mystified and intrigued scholars, archeologists, and anthropologists with their impressive size and design. The landscape practices of pioneer families destroyed much of them in the 1700s, but, during the first half of the 1800s, some serious mapmaking expeditions were able to record their locations. Utilizing many nineteenth-century maps as a base—including those of the gentlemen explorers Ephraim Squier and Edwin Davis—author Ross Hamilton reveals the meaning and purpose of these antique monuments.
                                       
                                      Together with these maps, Hamilton applies new theories and geometrical formulas to the earthworks to demonstrate that the Ohio Valley was the setting of a manitou system, an interactive organization of specially shaped villages that was home to a sophisticated society of architects and astronomers. The author retells over fifty ancient stories based on Native American myth such as "The One-Eyed Man" and "The Story of How Mischief Became Hare" that clearly indicate how knowledgeable the valley's inhabitants were about the constellations and the movement of the stars. Finally, Hamilton relates the spiritual culture of the valley's early inhabitants to a kind of golden age of humanity when people lived in harmony with the Earth and Sky, and looks forward to a time when our own culture can foster a similar "spiritual technology" and life-giving relationship with nature.

                                      Special Offers and Product Promotions

                                      • Pre-order Price Guarantee! Order now and if the Amazon.com price decreases between your order time and the end of the day of the release date, you'll receive the lowest price. Here's how (restrictions apply)E O. 1850-1919 RandallPaperback. 

                                      Editorial Reviews

                                      Review

                                      "Ross Hamilton's Star Mounds: Legacy of a Native American Mystery is a must-read for all who are interested in ancient star lores."—Robert Bauval, author of Black Genesis: The Prehistoric Origins of Ancient Egypt 
                                       "Ross Hamilton's Star Mounds is a unique, rich study of America's mysterious earthworks and the brilliant insights built into them by the geniuses who lived here in ancient times. This book's very existence and the fact that someone had the tenacity, vision, and understanding—born of a lifetime of study—to produce such an unprecedented work, excites me to the core. The artistry of the presentation, the astronomical and geomantic diagrams, and the beautiful stories are a feast for those who truly want to understand the soul of ancient America. This book is the key! I look forward to years of reading and rereading this amazing book."—John Major Jenkins, author of The 2012 Story: The Myths, Fallacies, and Truth Behind the Most Intriguing Date in History
                                      "There is an old Lakota story that says `always count the stars, for if we stop counting the stars we will cease to exist.' As beings of prescience, we must bring the inherent star knowledge above to Mother Earth below. Relationships come and go, but the knowledge, language, and imagination of Turtle Island's wisdom is never lost, however oblivious many are to its presence. Star Mounds: Legacy of a Native American Mystery has lit a fire for those who yearn for their originations."—Tiokasin Ghosthorse, Lakota leader and host of First Voices Indigenous Radio on WBAI New York/Pacifica Radio
                                      "In the long-awaited sequel to The Mystery of the Serpent Mound, Ross Hamilton delves deeper into the spiritual science and sacred geometry of the Ohio Valley of millennia past. Focusing on the Great Serpent effigy as hub and power center, Hamilton extends his meticulous research to include the surrounding earthworks that together form a cosmological zodiac. In the spirit of `as above, so below,' this `holy machine' once facilitated interactions between energies of earth and sky to ultimately allow for communion with the star ancestors. In language lucid and poetic, … his book details solar, lunar, and stellar alignments and roots them in time through the precession of the equinoxes. Star Mounds is a huge leap forward for archaeoastronomy and a crucial key to understanding the complex beauty of these enigmatic earthworks.—Gary A. David, author of The Kivas of Heaven: Ancient Hopi Starlore
                                      "Ross Hamilton's poetic analysis of the earthworks of the Ohio landscape is unique, inquisitive, and carried out in a gentle and respectful manner, with an emphasis on Native American mythology. Only the late John Michell could have created such a visionary report into the geometry, geomancy, astronomy, and mythology of this mysterious prehistoric landscape. Serpent Mound chose a wise representative to reveal her innermost secrets; many of her mysteries, long lost in the depths of time, have been bought back into the light. Star Mounds has also reopened the debate on ancient American history and reveals a lost enchanted landscape spread out over a wide area (even in present-day golf courses and residential areas). It gives the reader an insight into the prehistoric minds and hearts of a sophisticated team of intelligent, thoughtful and inspired architects, whose engineering and energetic fingerprints are still evident in the land thousands of years later."—Hugh Newman, organizer of the Megalithomania Conferences and author of Earth Grids: The Secret Patterns of Gaia's Sacred Sites
                                      "Ross revives the wisdom of a forgotten tradition.… It is my hope that Ross's work and its success will reenergize these sites, so they can shine like the stars they were linked with."—Philip Coppens, author of The Ancient Alien Question: A New Inquiry Into the Existence, Evidence, and Influence of Ancient Visitors

                                      About the Author

                                      Born in 1948 on Long Island, New York, Ross Hamilton has lived in the greater Cincinnati, Ohio area since the age of seven. Fascinated by American Indian history from childhood, Hamilton has devoted his life to bringing to light the lost history of the North American continent. He has worked with activist Vine Deloria Jr., the former executive director of the National Congress of American Indians; Floyd "Red Crow" Westerman; and Iroquois chief Jake Swamp. He frequently gives interviews on the subject of the star mounds, most recently on the History Channel show Ancient Aliens (http://bit.ly/qNVsKE).

                                      --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Ross Hamilton <d.ross.hamilton@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Hi Chris,
                                      >
                                      > I cited the Ancient Aliens show on that segment because the subject was not
                                      > attributed to aliens, but to Native Americans. I think you might enjoy
                                      > watching it. It's just the name of the show--not necessarily the content
                                      > for all segments.
                                      > Also, I've noticed that only Vince commented on subject. Thanks Vince.
                                      > Ross
                                      >
                                      > On Tue, Feb 21, 2012 at 3:11 AM, Chris Patenaude
                                      > yacrispyubetcha@...wrote:
                                      >
                                      > > **
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > What pees me off more'n a tad are these fad TV shows about any mystery
                                      > > at all linked to Aliens Aliens! I'm angered and insulted as a human to
                                      > > think somebody in a media castle has figured out how to dumb down the US
                                      > > Public even further and make money doing it! Claiming every fantastic,
                                      > > phenomenal wisdom our ancestors figured out *all on their li'l lonesomes*is completely due to reptilian or birdmen from outer space, is denegrating
                                      > > to the spectacular potential our species posesses. WE did it. WE figured
                                      > > out the geometry and the grids and the spatial abstractions to create
                                      > > wonderful works of engineering. Not some martian.
                                      > >
                                      > > Just because we've denied the proper educational challenges to our
                                      > > children, and we're reaping the results with a retarded generation of dull
                                      > > minds who can't think up anything on their own... that's no reason to turn
                                      > > to fantasy to explain why we can't imagine how these things were done in
                                      > > the past. It's the new superstition.
                                      > > Ach, I'll get off my soap box now. But reeeeeely! Aliens. pah! We did it
                                      > > by ourselves and continue to create marvelous things. Thank heavens there's
                                      > > a hundered other channels to watch on the boob toob. Better yet, turn it
                                      > > off and go walk a mound.
                                      > > -cp
                                      > >
                                      > > --- On *Tue, 2/14/12, Vincent Barrows v_barrows@...* wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > From: Vincent Barrows v_barrows@...
                                      > > Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re:
                                      > > James Sherz
                                      > > To: "d.ross.hamilton@..." d.ross.hamilton@...
                                      > > Cc: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <
                                      > > ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > Date: Tuesday, February 14, 2012, 4:25 PM
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Ross;
                                      > > An artifact was found at Cahokia that closely matches the grid you have
                                      > > shown (please see link below).
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/TABLETS/Cahokia/11MS1330/?start=all
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > *From:* Ross Hamilton d.ross.hamilton@...
                                      > > *To:* ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > *Sent:* Tuesday, February 14, 2012 11:18 AM
                                      > > *Subject:* [ancient_waterways_society] Metrology in Ancient America, re:
                                      > > James Sherz [1 Attachment]
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > Hello All,
                                      > >
                                      > > The subject of ancient metrology in North America has met with the
                                      > > paradigms peculiar to archaeological isolationism. Britain's John
                                      > > Michell wrote extensively on the subject of world metrology in ancient
                                      > > times, although he avoided a discussion including the North American
                                      > > earthworks.I cannot help but wonder about the fact that trying to measure
                                      > > out earthworks seems too risky a proposal when so many other places around
                                      > > the world offer plenty of opportunities for more precise, quantitative
                                      > > study by stone. Assuming Jim Sherz is familiar with Michell as well as
                                      > > Thom, let's examine some other points of view.
                                      > >
                                      > > James A. Marshall, a surveyor from Chicago, performed probably the most
                                      > > extensive revisiting of "Hopewell" sites after Squier & Davis and later
                                      > > Cyrus Thomas. Marshall came up with several units of measure for the
                                      > > earthworks of the Ohio and Mississippi Valleys, the most famous of which
                                      > > was 1056 feet. Ray Hively and Robert Horn came up with approximately 1054
                                      > > feet, and William F. Romain decided on 1053 (non decimalize). All these
                                      > > measures were produced from approximations over sprawling earthwork
                                      > > structures, and, as each study suggests, are not definitive. Greater
                                      > > accuracies were admitted by these same authors when grids were placed,
                                      > > distinguishing the earthworks in a way peculiar to our modern love of
                                      > > precision. In 2001, I published The Mystery of the Serpent Mound (Random
                                      > > House) wherein is demonstrated, also through the use of thoroughly
                                      > > conceived grids, Alexander Thom's Megalithic Yard (MY. 2.72 feet) as well
                                      > > as his Megalithic Rod (6.8 feet) in association with the Serpent Mound. In
                                      > > that same publication, an in-depth discussion of the possible relationship
                                      > > of the MY to the units proposed by Marshall, Hively and Horn, and Romain is
                                      > > presented.
                                      > >
                                      > > In the attached figure, the Serpent Mound rests upon a hexagonal grid, the
                                      > > perimeter of which is 720 of Thom's MY. Note the way the Serpent's
                                      > > measurements can be defined by Thom's measure due to the alnost cunning
                                      > > way the Serpent "fits" into the hexagonal matrix.
                                      > >
                                      > > As a volunteer and caretaker at the Serpent Mound site, on a clear autumn
                                      > > afternoon about 4 years ago, and after we had just repaired a damaged path
                                      > > along the western cliffs of the effigy, we made an unusual discovery of an
                                      > > apparent megalithic-type standing stone. This discovery was published in
                                      > > Ancient American Magazine, volume 14, issue 89 (2011). Because we can now
                                      > > date the Serpent Mound by an astronomical method of association to the
                                      > > Middle Archaic Period (about 6-5000 years ago), and because we believe that
                                      > > standing stone (as illustrated in an animation video aired on the History
                                      > > Channel's Ancient Aliens series season opener last year, 2011), was a key
                                      > > to understanding the function of the Serpent Mound, we believe that Thom's
                                      > > measure may apply to that site. In order to present this properly however,
                                      > > the paradigm of abject isolationism must be removed, if only temporarily.
                                      > > We have seen the possibility of trade moving from the Great lakes Copper
                                      > > region tentatively to places far more distant than Hopewell or Adena trade
                                      > > routes allow. During this period of mining (about 5,000 years ago by
                                      > > approximation) it would seem that there may have been cultural influences
                                      > > from beyond American borders at work in the Ohio and Mississippi Valleys.
                                      > > For all we know with absolute certainty however, these influences dictating
                                      > > measure could just as well have moved from North America out. We just do
                                      > > not know what was going on anywhere in the world past 5,000 years ago, and
                                      > > I greatly suspect that our own ancient America may hold a grand key to
                                      > > grasping the architectures of ancient Britain, Mesoamerica, Greece, and
                                      > > Egypt as we progress with our researches.
                                      > >
                                      > > Coming this summer: Star Mounds; Legacy of a Native American Mystery
                                      > > (North Atantic/Random House).
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      >
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