## Old World Units of Measure.... at Newark earthworks in Ohio (Scherz)

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• Reply from Jim Scherz,Saturday, January 3, 2009 12:00 AM Hi, I am indeed familiar with Thom and the Megalithic Yard. His work inspired some of our first
Message 1 of 4 , Feb 14, 2012
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Saturday, January 3, 2009 12:00 AM

Hi,  I am indeed familiar with Thom and the Megalithic Yard.  His work inspired some of our first research into the geometry of the Indian mounds.  From compiling the length of the pace of hundreds of students, I can say that Thom's Yard corresponds to the average pace of a tall person, about 6 ft.  As such, it would have indeed been a convenient standard distance for ancient metrology.  But I have not found the Megalithic Yard in this country.  Instead, we find the geographic foot of about 1.01 of our feet, derived from a minute of latitude arc on the surface of the earth. This distance varies by about 1 % between the earth's equator and the poles.  The average value of a minute of latitude arc is still known as the nautical mile (6076 ft.).  The term mile (from mil) means 1000.  This means there are 1000 units of 6.076 ft in a nautical mile.  This is the ancient fathom, still used by sailors.

Each land (Egypt, Greece, Troy, etc.) measured the length of the minute of arc and derived their standard units of the foot.  But it was found that these varied from land to land.  And the units of volume and standard weights (weight of water in a given volume) also varied from land to land.  Therefore there were different ounces used for precious metals, such as gold.  The Troy ounce is still a standard in London banking houses, even though Troy fell long, long ago.  Although the written records probably went up in smoke when a fanatical Christian mob burned the library of Alexandria in about AD 400, we know that somewhere along the way the traders of precious metals standardized the foot to the statute (legal) foot .  This is the foot that we still use.   This is used to create the statute mile, the acre, and the chain of 66 ft.  (The acre is 10 square chains).  We find both the local geographic units (the geographic stade of about 606 ft.) as well as units of the statute foot (100 ft and 66 ft. etc.)  in the layout of ancient sacred sites in North America.

Yes, I am familiar with the research in Ohio.  We have done some ourselves.  The local geographic stade (1/10 of a minute of latitude arc) is indeed found in the Octagon Mound in Newark Ohio.  And our measurements are accurate to the nearest foot, so I can say that.  We also confirm the diameter of the small circle at the Octagon mound at about 1050 ft.  But here, the mound is very wide and our uncertainty is a couple of feet (maybe as much as 5 feet).  So we would say the diameter is 1050 + or - a few feet.  The geographical stade is 1/10 of the local nautical mile.  And it would follow that a statute stade would be 1/10 of a statude mile or 1/10 x 5280 ft.  This is 528 ft.  Note for a circle that has a diameter of 1050 ft + or - a few feet, that the radius would be 1050 / 2 or 525 + or - a few feet.  This might be a reason.  Or it might not.  We need to sift and winnow this a bit more.

The best reference to ancient metrology that I have found is by Prof. Stecchini in an appendix to Tompkin's book on the Great Pyramid.

Jim Scherz

--- In ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com, Pamela Giese <pamela_giese2000@ ...> wrote:

Hi All,

Welcome Jim! Good to have you on board!
The geometry and measurement of things has always interested me. Since coming to the U.K. I've begun studying the work of Alexander Thom who surveyed a number of sites in England and Scotland. Thom eventually derived a measure called the "Megalithic Yard", which he thought was at the basis for many of the Megalithic sites. In common terms, this is 2.72 feet.

Is there a full version of Jim's article online? If not, I can probably get it from the MES editor.
There's a lot of controversy about Thom's megalithic yard. I've also been reading from authors who believe that the geometry of British megalithic sites are evidence of proto-Pythagorean knowledge. I hope to do more investigating on this myself. Fortunately my new husband rarely goes anywheres without his ranging rods ---see attached photo.

Back to the states...another researcher who's done a lot of work on the unit of measure of the Hopewell and ancient Ohio people is William Romain. If you're interested in this subject, I highly recommend his book: "Mysteries of the Hopewell: Astronomers, Geometers, and Magicians of the Eastern Woodlands". Romain sees the similar unit of 1053 feet occuring across Hopewell sites. This is very close to Jim's 1050 feet in the article's abstract (that's why I thirst for more info). Romain further reduces this measure to a "Hopewell" yard of 2.106 feet. That's about 7.2 inches less than Thom's Megalithic yard.

Cheers!
 This article appeared in the Volume 16, Number 1, 2002 issue of the Midwestern Epigraphic Journal.html

 Midwestern Epigraphic Society tax exempt organization [501.C(3)] under IRS Regulations

# Old World Units of MeasureFound in the Layout Geometry of Prehistoric Earthworks at Newark, Ohio

## By Dr James P Scherz

[This article appeared in the Volume 16, Number 1, 2002 issue of the Midwestern Epigraphic Journal.]
___________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

--- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan" <beldingenglish@...> wrote:
>
> A few items here...
> corresponded with member Chris P. (of the Equinox Project) who had, with
> his permission, forwarded me his note and photos of a reportedly
> Carthaginian coin he found in the NW United States; and that he is
> having the coin and discovery site researched. I also forwarded his
> note to members Lee Pennington, Dr. Jim Scherz, and onlooker, Wayne May
> of Ancient American--- all of whom have published articles/booklets on
> ancient coins found in the U.S.
>
> While this group does not appraise, sell coins, artifacts, etc. I am
> sure many are interested in such potential discoveries and geographical
> locations. Should it be possible to determine authenticity and dating
> of anciencoinsn,it seems likely they would be found submerged or
> along the parameters of old waterways.
> ---I want to greet by name two members I missed last month, Rachel
> Treichler of Eco Books in New York, and J. Fletch. Welcome!
> The link to the following Early Canadiana Online on the Mound Builders
> may have been posted by one of uou earlier; all 20 pages of the
> 1884-1885 booklet are accessible here; pp. 15-16 includes data of
> possible early migrations or origins which some of you posting earlier
> might find interesting, though the dates suggested by the author, of
> course very conservative.The Mound Builders (1884-85) by Dr. George
> Bryce , Manitoba college and President of the Historical Society,
>
> --in response to a request by member, Pete trying to find one of our old
> Posts on Old Measures at Newark from the Midwestern Epigraphic Society,
> I include the link below. First part of the post are replies by Rev.
> pam Giese of England, and author of the article (Jim Scherz ) soon after
> he joined our group. Both Pam and Jim encouraged the founding of an
> Ancient Waterways Society years before we went online. Scroll down post
> for full article on Old World Measures and "layout geometry" of Newark
> earthworks in Ohio. Ancient Waterways member Larry Johns of the
> UNiversity of Wisconsin-Madison was also part of the survey of the
> Newark and many pre-historic earthworks in Ohio and Wisconsin.
> Midwestern Epigraphic Society
> Old World Units of Measure Found in the Layout Geometry of
> Prehistoric Earthworks at Newark, Ohio, by Dr James P Scherz
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ancient_waterways_society/message/745
> <http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ancient_waterways_society/message/74\
> 5>
>
• The unit Jim gives is the same as I found in Vermont at three different sites. This is an article I wrote for the NEARA Journal some years ago. ... From: Susan
Message 2 of 4 , Feb 14, 2012
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The unit Jim gives is the same as I found in Vermont at three different sites. This is an article I wrote for the NEARA Journal some years ago.

--- On Tue, 2/14/12, Susan <beldingenglish@...> wrote:

From: Susan <beldingenglish@...>
Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Old World Units of Measure.... at Newark earthworks in Ohio (Scherz)
To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
Date: Tuesday, February 14, 2012, 3:35 AM

Saturday, January 3, 2009 12:00 AM

Hi,  I am indeed familiar with Thom and the Megalithic Yard.  His work inspired some of our first research into the geometry of the Indian mounds.  From compiling the length of the pace of hundreds of students, I can say that Thom's Yard corresponds to the average pace of a tall person, about 6 ft.  As such, it would have indeed been a convenient standard distance for ancient metrology.  But I have not found the Megalithic Yard in this country.  Instead, we find the geographic foot of about 1.01 of our feet, derived from a minute of latitude arc on the surface of the earth. This distance varies by about 1 % between the earth's equator and the poles.  The average value of a minute of latitude arc is still known as the nautical mile (6076 ft.).  The term mile (from mil) means 1000.  This means there are 1000 units of 6.076 ft in a nautical mile.  This is the ancient fathom, still used by sailors.

Each land (Egypt, Greece, Troy, etc.) measured the length of the minute of arc and derived their standard units of the foot.  But it was found that these varied from land to land.  And the units of volume and standard weights (weight of water in a given volume) also varied from land to land.  Therefore there were different ounces used for precious metals, such as gold.  The Troy ounce is still a standard in London banking houses, even though Troy fell long, long ago.  Although the written records probably went up in smoke when a fanatical Christian mob burned the library of Alexandria in about AD 400, we know that somewhere along the way the traders of precious metals standardized the foot to the statute (legal) foot .  This is the foot that we still use.   This is used to create the statute mile, the acre, and the chain of 66 ft.  (The acre is 10 square chains).  We find both the local geographic units (the geographic stade of about 606 ft.) as well as units of the statute foot (100 ft and 66 ft. etc.)  in the layout of ancient sacred sites in North America.

Yes, I am familiar with the research in Ohio.  We have done some ourselves.  The local geographic stade (1/10 of a minute of latitude arc) is indeed found in the Octagon Mound in Newark Ohio.  And our measurements are accurate to the nearest foot, so I can say that.  We also confirm the diameter of the small circle at the Octagon mound at about 1050 ft.  But here, the mound is very wide and our uncertainty is a couple of feet (maybe as much as 5 feet).  So we would say the diameter is 1050 + or - a few feet.  The geographical stade is 1/10 of the local nautical mile.  And it would follow that a statute stade would be 1/10 of a statude mile or 1/10 x 5280 ft.  This is 528 ft.  Note for a circle that has a diameter of 1050 ft + or - a few feet, that the radius would be 1050 / 2 or 525 + or - a few feet.  This might be a reason.  Or it might not.  We need to sift and winnow this a bit more.

The best reference to ancient metrology that I have found is by Prof. Stecchini in an appendix to Tompkin's book on the Great Pyramid.

Jim Scherz

--- In ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com, Pamela Giese <pamela_giese2000@ ...> wrote:

Hi All,

Welcome Jim! Good to have you on board!
The geometry and measurement of things has always interested me. Since coming to the U.K. I've begun studying the work of Alexander Thom who surveyed a number of sites in England and Scotland. Thom eventually derived a measure called the "Megalithic Yard", which he thought was at the basis for many of the Megalithic sites. In common terms, this is 2.72 feet.

Is there a full version of Jim's article online? If not, I can probably get it from the MES editor.
There's a lot of controversy about Thom's megalithic yard. I've also been reading from authors who believe that the geometry of British megalithic sites are evidence of proto-Pythagorean knowledge. I hope to do more investigating on this myself. Fortunately my new husband rarely goes anywheres without his ranging rods ---see attached photo.

Back to the states...another researcher who's done a lot of work on the unit of measure of the Hopewell and ancient Ohio people is William Romain. If you're interested in this subject, I highly recommend his book: "Mysteries of the Hopewell: Astronomers, Geometers, and Magicians of the Eastern Woodlands". Romain sees the similar unit of 1053 feet occuring across Hopewell sites. This is very close to Jim's 1050 feet in the article's abstract (that's why I thirst for more info). Romain further reduces this measure to a "Hopewell" yard of 2.106 feet. That's about 7.2 inches less than Thom's Megalithic yard.

Cheers!
 This article appeared in the Volume 16, Number 1, 2002 issue of the Midwestern Epigraphic Journal.html

 Midwestern Epigraphic Society tax exempt organization [501.C(3)] under IRS Regulations

# Old World Units of MeasureFound in the Layout Geometry of Prehistoric Earthworks at Newark, Ohio

## By Dr James P Scherz

[This article appeared in the Volume 16, Number 1, 2002 issue of the Midwestern Epigraphic Journal.]
___________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

--- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan" <beldingenglish@...> wrote:
>
> A few items here...
> corresponded with member Chris P. (of the Equinox Project) who had, with
> his permission, forwarded me his note and photos of a reportedly
> Carthaginian coin he found in the NW United States; and that he is
> having the coin and discovery site researched. I also forwarded his
> note to members Lee Pennington, Dr. Jim Scherz, and onlooker, Wayne May
> of Ancient American--- all of whom have published articles/booklets on
> ancient coins found in the U.S.
>
> While this group does not appraise, sell coins, artifacts, etc. I am
> sure many are interested in such potential discoveries and geographical
> locations. Should it be possible to determine authenticity and dating
> of anciencoinsn,it seems likely they would be found submerged or
> along the parameters of old waterways.
> ---I want to greet by name two members I missed last month, Rachel
> Treichler of Eco Books in New York, and J. Fletch. Welcome!
> The link to the following Early Canadiana Online on the Mound Builders
> may have been posted by one of uou earlier; all 20 pages of the
> 1884-1885 booklet are accessible here; pp. 15-16 includes data of
> possible early migrations or origins which some of you posting earlier
> might find interesting, though the dates suggested by the author, of
> course very conservative.The Mound Builders (1884-85) by Dr. George
> Bryce , Manitoba college and President of the Historical Society,
>
> --in response to a request by member, Pete trying to find one of our old
> Posts on Old Measures at Newark from the Midwestern Epigraphic Society,
> I include the link below. First part of the post are replies by Rev.
> pam Giese of England, and author of the article (Jim Scherz ) soon after
> he joined our group. Both Pam and Jim encouraged the founding of an
> Ancient Waterways Society years before we went online. Scroll down post
> for full article on Old World Measures and "layout geometry" of Newark
> earthworks in Ohio. Ancient Waterways member Larry Johns of the
> UNiversity of Wisconsin-Madison was also part of the survey of the
> Newark and many pre-historic earthworks in Ohio and Wisconsin.
> Midwestern Epigraphic Society
> Old World Units of Measure Found in the Layout Geometry of
> Prehistoric Earthworks at Newark, Ohio, by Dr James P Scherz
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ancient_waterways_society/message/745
> <http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ancient_waterways_society/message/74\
> 5>
>
• Hello all, The subject of ancient metrology has met with the paradigms peculiar to isolationism in North America. John Michell has written extensively on the
Message 3 of 4 , Feb 14, 2012
• 0 Attachment
Hello all,
The subject of ancient metrology has met with the paradigms peculiar to isolationism in North America. John Michell has written extensively on the subject of world metrology in ancient times, although he avoided a discussion including the North American earthworks.. Assuming Jim Sherz is familiar with Michell as well as Thom, let's examine some other points of view.

James A. Marshall, a surveyor from Chicago, performed probably the most extensive revisiting of "Hopewell" sites after Squier & Davis and later Cyrus Thomas. Marshall came up with several units of measure for the earthworks of the Ohio and Mississippi Valleys, the most famous of which was 1056 feet. Ray Hively and Robert Horn came up with approximately 1054 feet, and William F. Romain decided on 1053 (non decimalize). All these measures were produced from approximations over sprawling earthwork structures, and, as each study suggests, are not definitive. Greater accuracies were admitted by these same authors when grids were placed, distinguishing the earthworks in a way peculiar to our modern love of precision. In 2001, I published The Mystery of the Serpent Mound (Random House) wherein is demonstrated, also through the use of thoroughly conceived grids, Alexander Thom's Megalithic Yard (MY. 2.72 feet) as well as his Megalithic Rod (6.8 feet) in association with the Serpent Mound. In that same publication, an in-depth discussion of the possible relationship of the MY to the units proposed by Marshall, Hively and Horn, and Romain is presented.

As a volunteer and caretaker at the Serpent Mound site, on a clear autumn afternoon about 4 years ago, and after we had just repaired a damaged path along the western cliffs of the effigy, we made an unusual discovery of an apparent megalithic-type standing stone. This discovery was published in Ancient American Magazine, volume 14, issue 89 (2011). Because we can now date the Serpent Mound by an astronomical method of association to the Middle Archaic Period (about 6-5000 years ago), and because we believe that standing stone (as illustrated in an animation video aired on the History Channel's Ancient Aliens series season opener last year, 2011), was a key to understanding the function of the Serpent Mound, we believe that Thoma's measure may apply to that site. In order to present this properly however, the paradigm of abject isolationism mys be removed, if only temporarily. We have seen the possibility of trade moving from the Great lakes Copper region tentatively to places far more distant than Hopewell or Adena trade routes allow. During this period of mining (about 5,000 years ago by approximation) it would seem that there may have been cultural influences from beyond American borders at work in the Ohio and Mississippi Valleys. For all we know with absolute certainty however, these influences dictating measure could just as well have moved from North America out. We just do not know what was going on anywhere in the world past 5,000 years ago, and I greatly suspect that our own ancient America may hold a grand key to grasping the architectures of ancient Britain, Mesoamerica, Greece, and Egypt as we progress with our researches.

Coming this summer: Star Mounds; Legacy of a Native American Mystery (North Atantic/Random House).

On Tue, Feb 14, 2012 at 3:35 AM, Susan wrote:

Saturday, January 3, 2009 12:00 AM

Hi,  I am indeed familiar with Thom and the Megalithic Yard.  His work inspired some of our first research into the geometry of the Indian mounds.  From compiling the length of the pace of hundreds of students, I can say that Thom's Yard corresponds to the average pace of a tall person, about 6 ft.  As such, it would have indeed been a convenient standard distance for ancient metrology.  But I have not found the Megalithic Yard in this country.  Instead, we find the geographic foot of about 1.01 of our feet, derived from a minute of latitude arc on the surface of the earth. This distance varies by about 1 % between the earth's equator and the poles.  The average value of a minute of latitude arc is still known as the nautical mile (6076 ft.).  The term mile (from mil) means 1000.  This means there are 1000 units of 6.076 ft in a nautical mile.  This is the ancient fathom, still used by sailors.

Each land (Egypt, Greece, Troy, etc.) measured the length of the minute of arc and derived their standard units of the foot.  But it was found that these varied from land to land.  And the units of volume and standard weights (weight of water in a given volume) also varied from land to land.  Therefore there were different ounces used for precious metals, such as gold.  The Troy ounce is still a standard in London banking houses, even though Troy fell long, long ago.  Although the written records probably went up in smoke when a fanatical Christian mob burned the library of Alexandria in about AD 400, we know that somewhere along the way the traders of precious metals standardized the foot to the statute (legal) foot .  This is the foot that we still use.   This is used to create the statute mile, the acre, and the chain of 66 ft.  (The acre is 10 square chains).  We find both the local geographic units (the geographic stade of about 606 ft.) as well as units of the statute foot (100 ft and 66 ft. etc.)  in the layout of ancient sacred sites in North America.

Yes, I am familiar with the research in Ohio.  We have done some ourselves.  The local geographic stade (1/10 of a minute of latitude arc) is indeed found in the Octagon Mound in Newark Ohio.  And our measurements are accurate to the nearest foot, so I can say that.  We also confirm the diameter of the small circle at the Octagon mound at about 1050 ft.  But here, the mound is very wide and our uncertainty is a couple of feet (maybe as much as 5 feet).  So we would say the diameter is 1050 + or - a few feet.  The geographical stade is 1/10 of the local nautical mile.  And it would follow that a statute stade would be 1/10 of a statude mile or 1/10 x 5280 ft.  This is 528 ft.  Note for a circle that has a diameter of 1050 ft + or - a few feet, that the radius would be 1050 / 2 or 525 + or - a few feet.  This might be a reason.  Or it might not.  We need to sift and winnow this a bit more.

The best reference to ancient metrology that I have found is by Prof. Stecchini in an appendix to Tompkin's book on the Great Pyramid.

Jim Scherz

--- In ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com, Pamela Giese <pamela_giese2000@ ...> wrote:

Hi All,

Welcome Jim! Good to have you on board!
The geometry and measurement of things has always interested me. Since coming to the U.K. I've begun studying the work of Alexander Thom who surveyed a number of sites in England and Scotland. Thom eventually derived a measure called the "Megalithic Yard", which he thought was at the basis for many of the Megalithic sites. In common terms, this is 2.72 feet.

Is there a full version of Jim's article online? If not, I can probably get it from the MES editor.
There's a lot of controversy about Thom's megalithic yard. I've also been reading from authors who believe that the geometry of British megalithic sites are evidence of proto-Pythagorean knowledge. I hope to do more investigating on this myself. Fortunately my new husband rarely goes anywheres without his ranging rods ---see attached photo.

Back to the states...another researcher who's done a lot of work on the unit of measure of the Hopewell and ancient Ohio people is William Romain. If you're interested in this subject, I highly recommend his book: "Mysteries of the Hopewell: Astronomers, Geometers, and Magicians of the Eastern Woodlands". Romain sees the similar unit of 1053 feet occuring across Hopewell sites. This is very close to Jim's 1050 feet in the article's abstract (that's why I thirst for more info). Romain further reduces this measure to a "Hopewell" yard of 2.106 feet. That's about 7.2 inches less than Thom's Megalithic yard.

Cheers!
 This article appeared in the Volume 16, Number 1, 2002 issue of the Midwestern Epigraphic Journal.html

 Midwestern Epigraphic Society tax exempt organization [501.C(3)] under IRS Regulations

# Old World Units of MeasureFound in the Layout Geometry of Prehistoric Earthworks at Newark, Ohio

## By Dr James P Scherz

[This article appeared in the Volume 16, Number 1, 2002 issue of the Midwestern Epigraphic Journal.]
___________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _

--- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan" <beldingenglish@...> wrote:
>
> A few items here...
> corresponded with member Chris P. (of the Equinox Project) who had, with
> his permission, forwarded me his note and photos of a reportedly
> Carthaginian coin he found in the NW United States; and that he is
> having the coin and discovery site researched. I also forwarded his
> note to members Lee Pennington, Dr. Jim Scherz, and onlooker, Wayne May
> of Ancient American--- all of whom have published articles/booklets on
> ancient coins found in the U.S.
>
> While this group does not appraise, sell coins, artifacts, etc. I am
> sure many are interested in such potential discoveries and geographical
> locations. Should it be possible to determine authenticity and dating
> of anciencoinsn,it seems likely they would be found submerged or
> along the parameters of old waterways.
> ---I want to greet by name two members I missed last month, Rachel
> Treichler of Eco Books in New York, and J. Fletch. Welcome!
> The link to the following Early Canadiana Online on the Mound Builders
> may have been posted by one of uou earlier; all 20 pages of the
> 1884-1885 booklet are accessible here; pp. 15-16 includes data of
> possible early migrations or origins which some of you posting earlier
> might find interesting, though the dates suggested by the author, of
> course very conservative.The Mound Builders (1884-85) by Dr. George
> Bryce , Manitoba college and President of the Historical Society,
>
> --in response to a request by member, Pete trying to find one of our old
> Posts on Old Measures at Newark from the Midwestern Epigraphic Society,
> I include the link below. First part of the post are replies by Rev.
> pam Giese of England, and author of the article (Jim Scherz ) soon after
> he joined our group. Both Pam and Jim encouraged the founding of an
> Ancient Waterways Society years before we went online. Scroll down post
> for full article on Old World Measures and "layout geometry" of Newark
> earthworks in Ohio. Ancient Waterways member Larry Johns of the
> UNiversity of Wisconsin-Madison was also part of the survey of the
> Newark and many pre-historic earthworks in Ohio and Wisconsin.
> Midwestern Epigraphic Society
> Old World Units of Measure Found in the Layout Geometry of
> Prehistoric Earthworks at Newark, Ohio, by Dr James P Scherz
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ancient_waterways_society/message/745
> <http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ancient_waterways_society/message/74\
> 5>
>

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