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Re: Ancient Canal Builders website & The Atlantic Dispersion Theory (Overview)

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  • Vince
    Please see the following link for native American contributions regarding canals. http://books.google.com/books?output=html_text&id=QIFTVWJH3doC&q=Canals
    Message 1 of 26 , Feb 13, 2012
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      Please see the following link for native American contributions regarding canals.

      http://books.google.com/books?output=html_text&id=QIFTVWJH3doC&q=Canals


      --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan" <beldingenglish@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Knock me over with a feather, Steve; sorry I made the assumption you
      > were still part of the Canalbuilders group. I do have the utmost
      > respect for you and what you have articulated since I met you at a
      > World Explorers Club Conf. in Central Illinois many years ago....adore
      > your dialogues at these web sites, your keen mind, and utmost integrity.
      > Your ideas about 'glaciers' in posts a few years ago kept me awake a
      > night or two trying to understand assumptions I'd always made, mainly
      > because much of what you said seemed to ring true.
      >
      > I will nevertheless keep an open mind that there may have been people in
      > 'ancient' rather than early historic times within the Americas who
      > created canals when portaging became too cumbersome...
      >
      > Are you going to attend the upcoming World Explorers Conference in Ill.
      > this June? No speakers listed yet but I am thinking of it and will
      > announce it here when details come on the WEX site. Main web site:
      > http://wexclub.com/ <http://wexclub.com/> I will go for sure if some
      > of the members from this group go there...cute Bed and Breakfast nearby.
      > Is held in a tiny farm town of 246 where David Hatcher Childress has his
      > main home (clubhouse) and bookstore. Fun, informal conference...
      >
      > Susan
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "bigalemc2"
      > <puppet@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Susan -
      > >
      > > I need to inform you that I am no longer part of John Jensen's Ancient
      > > Canal Builders project.
      > >
      > > In investigating the sources of the canals John found, I satisfied
      > > myself that there were modern explanations for them. I communicated
      > all
      > > my findings to John, and he has chosen to continue on with the project
      > > anyway. But I am content that the canals are not ancient. I wish they
      > > were, but I don't think so. It was worth looking into, certainly, but
      > > after looking closely at it, I have to disagree with John.
      > >
      > > The two main types of canals were the long straight ones in the Gulf
      > > coastal areas and the "irrigation" ones along the Eastern Seaboard.
      > >
      > > I learned that the long wide ones in the Gulf were dredged for oil
      > > exploration, mostly in the middle of the 20th century. I learned that
      > > the "irrigation" ones on the Atlantic coast were "mosquito ditches,"
      > dug
      > > to control mosquitos and make the Atlantic coast more habitable for
      > > humans. The "symbols" turned out to be muskrat dens and the channels
      > > they "dug" because they get around better in water than waddling
      > around
      > > on land. The "symbols" were totally an artifact of Google Earth and
      > the
      > > way the satellite images get flattened out.
      > >
      > > All these explanations came as surprises to me, but after I saw the
      > > evidence I was convinced. I am really surprised that John has decided
      > to
      > > keep going on this, because I don't see there is anything to it. I
      > > thought so, but now I don't. Facts convinced me.
      > >
      >
    • TRAYLOROO
       Tell me that book about canals  ... it has an index...... Right?             CAL     ===========================
      Message 2 of 26 , Feb 13, 2012
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         Tell me that book about canals  ... it has an index...... Right?            
         
        CAL 
         
         ===========================
         
        From: Vince <v_barrows@...>
        To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 9:14 PM
        Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Ancient Canal Builders website & The Atlantic Dispersion Theory (Overview)

         
        Please see the following link for native American contributions regarding canals.

        http://books.google.com/books?output=html_text&id=QIFTVWJH3doC&q=Canals

        --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan" <beldingenglish@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        > Knock me over with a feather, Steve; sorry I made the assumption you
        > were still part of the Canalbuilders group. I do have the utmost
        > respect for you and what you have articulated since I met you at a
        > World Explorers Club Conf. in Central Illinois many years ago....adore
        > your dialogues at these web sites, your keen mind, and utmost integrity.
        > Your ideas about 'glaciers' in posts a few years ago kept me awake a
        > night or two trying to understand assumptions I'd always made, mainly
        > because much of what you said seemed to ring true.
        >
        > I will nevertheless keep an open mind that there may have been people in
        > 'ancient' rather than early historic times within the Americas who
        > created canals when portaging became too cumbersome...
        >
        > Are you going to attend the upcoming World Explorers Conference in Ill.
        > this June? No speakers listed yet but I am thinking of it and will
        > announce it here when details come on the WEX site. Main web site:
        > http://wexclub.com/ <http://wexclub.com/> I will go for sure if some
        > of the members from this group go there...cute Bed and Breakfast nearby.
        > Is held in a tiny farm town of 246 where David Hatcher Childress has his
        > main home (clubhouse) and bookstore. Fun, informal conference...
        >
        > Susan
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "bigalemc2"
        > <puppet@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Susan -
        > >
        > > I need to inform you that I am no longer part of John Jensen's Ancient
        > > Canal Builders project.
        > >
        > > In investigating the sources of the canals John found, I satisfied
        > > myself that there were modern explanations for them. I communicated
        > all
        > > my findings to John, and he has chosen to continue on with the project
        > > anyway. But I am content that the canals are not ancient. I wish they
        > > were, but I don't think so. It was worth looking into, certainly, but
        > > after looking closely at it, I have to disagree with John.
        > >
        > > The two main types of canals were the long straight ones in the Gulf
        > > coastal areas and the "irrigation" ones along the Eastern Seaboard.
        > >
        > > I learned that the long wide ones in the Gulf were dredged for oil
        > > exploration, mostly in the middle of the 20th century. I learned that
        > > the "irrigation" ones on the Atlantic coast were "mosquito ditches,"
        > dug
        > > to control mosquitos and make the Atlantic coast more habitable for
        > > humans. The "symbols" turned out to be muskrat dens and the channels
        > > they "dug" because they get around better in water than waddling
        > around
        > > on land. The "symbols" were totally an artifact of Google Earth and
        > the
        > > way the satellite images get flattened out.
        > >
        > > All these explanations came as surprises to me, but after I saw the
        > > evidence I was convinced. I am really surprised that John has decided
        > to
        > > keep going on this, because I don't see there is anything to it. I
        > > thought so, but now I don't. Facts convinced me.
        > >
        >



      • Vincent Barrows
        Yes that book has an index, which begins on on page 367. It is also visible in the link provided....
        Message 3 of 26 , Feb 13, 2012
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          Yes that book has an index, which begins on on page 367. It is also visible in the link provided....


          ------------------------------
          On Mon, Feb 13, 2012 11:30 PM EST TRAYLOROO wrote:

          >
          >
          > Tell me that book about canals  ... it has an index...... Right?            
          >
          >CAL 

          > ===========================
          >
          >
          >________________________________
          > From: Vince <v_barrows@...>
          >To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
          >Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 9:14 PM
          >Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Ancient Canal Builders website & The Atlantic Dispersion Theory (Overview)
          >
          >
          >

          >
          >Please see the following link for native American contributions regarding canals.
          >
          >http://books.google.com/books?output=html_text&id=QIFTVWJH3doC&q=Canals
          >
          >--- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan" <beldingenglish@...> wrote:
          >>
          >>
          >> Knock me over with a feather, Steve; sorry I made the assumption you
          >> were still part of the Canalbuilders group. I do have the utmost
          >> respect for you and what you have articulated since I met you at a
          >> World Explorers Club Conf. in Central Illinois many years ago....adore
          >> your dialogues at these web sites, your keen mind, and utmost integrity.
          >> Your ideas about 'glaciers' in posts a few years ago kept me awake a
          >> night or two trying to understand assumptions I'd always made, mainly
          >> because much of what you said seemed to ring true.
          >>
          >> I will nevertheless keep an open mind that there may have been people in
          >> 'ancient' rather than early historic times within the Americas who
          >> created canals when portaging became too cumbersome...
          >>
          >> Are you going to attend the upcoming World Explorers Conference in Ill.
          >> this June? No speakers listed yet but I am thinking of it and will
          >> announce it here when details come on the WEX site. Main web site:
          >> http://wexclub.com/ <http://wexclub.com/> I will go for sure if some
          >> of the members from this group go there...cute Bed and Breakfast nearby.
          >> Is held in a tiny farm town of 246 where David Hatcher Childress has his
          >> main home (clubhouse) and bookstore. Fun, informal conference...
          >>
          >> Susan
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "bigalemc2"
          >> <puppet@> wrote:
          >> >
          >> > Susan -
          >> >
          >> > I need to inform you that I am no longer part of John Jensen's Ancient
          >> > Canal Builders project.
          >> >
          >> > In investigating the sources of the canals John found, I satisfied
          >> > myself that there were modern explanations for them. I communicated
          >> all
          >> > my findings to John, and he has chosen to continue on with the project
          >> > anyway. But I am content that the canals are not ancient. I wish they
          >> > were, but I don't think so. It was worth looking into, certainly, but
          >> > after looking closely at it, I have to disagree with John.
          >> >
          >> > The two main types of canals were the long straight ones in the Gulf
          >> > coastal areas and the "irrigation" ones along the Eastern Seaboard.
          >> >
          >> > I learned that the long wide ones in the Gulf were dredged for oil
          >> > exploration, mostly in the middle of the 20th century. I learned that
          >> > the "irrigation" ones on the Atlantic coast were "mosquito ditches,"
          >> dug
          >> > to control mosquitos and make the Atlantic coast more habitable for
          >> > humans. The "symbols" turned out to be muskrat dens and the channels
          >> > they "dug" because they get around better in water than waddling
          >> around
          >> > on land. The "symbols" were totally an artifact of Google Earth and
          >> the
          >> > way the satellite images get flattened out.
          >> >
          >> > All these explanations came as surprises to me, but after I saw the
          >> > evidence I was convinced. I am really surprised that John has decided
          >> to
          >> > keep going on this, because I don't see there is anything to it. I
          >> > thought so, but now I don't. Facts convinced me.
          >> >
          >>
          >
          >
          >
        • bigalemc2
          To all - Since her response is still showing up prominently in these last posts on Ancient Canal Builders and the Atlantic Dispersion Overview, I d like to
          Message 4 of 26 , Feb 15, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            To all -

            Since her response is still showing up prominently in these last posts on 'Ancient Canal Builders' and the Atlantic Dispersion Overview, I'd like to reiterate to Susan and to everyone else that John Jensen's Ancient Canal Builders site turned out to be wrong, flat out.

            I had joined up with John, and was all excited at his having found something amazing.  But, right in the middle of proving they were not modern, I found out that his WERE, in fact, modern.  Nothing ancient about them at all.

            Please trust me on this, Susan.  I probably have to be as much of an expert on this as anyone can be, and take my word for it:

            John Jensen's canals are not ancient.  Period.

            The IDEA of aquaculture in canals on marshland I DO think is not only a good one, but possibly a terrific source of nutrients and an efficient way of feeding a large population.  It would be flush-through, possibly even more so than modern fish farming, because nutrients come directly from rivers.

            However much I liked the idea, John's canals proved to not be what he thought they were.  They turned out to be three different types of modern canals/channels (in the order I found them out) - mosquito ditches, oil exploration canals for drilling platforms, and muskrat channels.

            On the other hand, looking at the book referenced, those are not the same thing, and without reading the book, I cannot have an opinion about them, other than hip shooting.

            I will make only one - mostly uninformed - observation, that the ones in Peru are in the areas of irrigation that have puzzled and impressed archeologists for a long time.  If so, irrigation canals are something different from what the 'Ancient Canal Builders' site is/was all about.

            Thanks for you patience, folks.


            Steve Garcia

            P.S.  NOTE TO MODERATOR, if we have one: 

            Is there any way to close out this Ancient Canal Builders thread and put these last two or three comments on a differently titled thread?

            S.

            --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, TRAYLOROO <trayloroo@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >
            >  Tell me that book about canals  ... it has an index...... Right?            
            >
            > CAL 
            >  
            >  ===========================
            >
            >
            > ________________________________
            > From: Vince v_barrows@...
            > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 9:14 PM
            > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Ancient Canal Builders website & The Atlantic Dispersion Theory (Overview)
            >
            >
            >
            >  
            >
            > Please see the following link for native American contributions regarding canals.
            >
            > http://books.google.com/books?output=html_text&id=QIFTVWJH3doC&q=Canals
            >
            > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan" beldingenglish@ wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > > Knock me over with a feather, Steve; sorry I made the assumption you
            > > were still part of the Canalbuilders group. I do have the utmost
            > > respect for you and what you have articulated since I met you at a
            > > World Explorers Club Conf. in Central Illinois many years ago....adore
            > > your dialogues at these web sites, your keen mind, and utmost integrity.
            > > Your ideas about 'glaciers' in posts a few years ago kept me awake a
            > > night or two trying to understand assumptions I'd always made, mainly
            > > because much of what you said seemed to ring true.
            > >
            > > I will nevertheless keep an open mind that there may have been people in
            > > 'ancient' rather than early historic times within the Americas who
            > > created canals when portaging became too cumbersome...
            > >
            > > Are you going to attend the upcoming World Explorers Conference in Ill.
            > > this June? No speakers listed yet but I am thinking of it and will
            > > announce it here when details come on the WEX site. Main web site:
            > > http://wexclub.com/ <http://wexclub.com/> I will go for sure if some
            > > of the members from this group go there...cute Bed and Breakfast nearby.
            > > Is held in a tiny farm town of 246 where David Hatcher Childress has his
            > > main home (clubhouse) and bookstore. Fun, informal conference...
            > >
            > > Susan
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "bigalemc2"
            > > <puppet@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Susan -
            > > >
            > > > I need to inform you that I am no longer part of John Jensen's Ancient
            > > > Canal Builders project.
            > > >
            > > > In investigating the sources of the canals John found, I satisfied
            > > > myself that there were modern explanations for them. I communicated
            > > all
            > > > my findings to John, and he has chosen to continue on with the project
            > > > anyway. But I am content that the canals are not ancient. I wish they
            > > > were, but I don't think so. It was worth looking into, certainly, but
            > > > after looking closely at it, I have to disagree with John.
            > > >
            > > > The two main types of canals were the long straight ones in the Gulf
            > > > coastal areas and the "irrigation" ones along the Eastern Seaboard.
            > > >
            > > > I learned that the long wide ones in the Gulf were dredged for oil
            > > > exploration, mostly in the middle of the 20th century. I learned that
            > > > the "irrigation" ones on the Atlantic coast were "mosquito ditches,"
            > > dug
            > > > to control mosquitos and make the Atlantic coast more habitable for
            > > > humans. The "symbols" turned out to be muskrat dens and the channels
            > > > they "dug" because they get around better in water than waddling
            > > around
            > > > on land. The "symbols" were totally an artifact of Google Earth and
            > > the
            > > > way the satellite images get flattened out.
            > > >
            > > > All these explanations came as surprises to me, but after I saw the
            > > > evidence I was convinced. I am really surprised that John has decided
            > > to
            > > > keep going on this, because I don't see there is anything to it. I
            > > > thought so, but now I don't. Facts convinced me.
            > > >
            > >
            >
          • Ted Sojka
            Thought on canals and lagoons and the future. The author of the book. Alcohol is a Gas was on the air last night and said that cattails were many times more
            Message 5 of 26 , Feb 15, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              Thought on canals and lagoons and the future.  

              The author of the book. "Alcohol is a Gas" was on the air last night and said that cattails were many times more efficient than corn in making ethanol.   It also purified waste water in sewage lagoons while turning the fluids into starch and sugar.  He said the Roman solider was paid in pieces of cattail stalks.  

              Cattail wine can be distilled into cattail brandy and into fuel to run your car.  E 85 cars could be adjusted to run on fuel made on your farm or acreage.  Wish I had a swamp on my property, but he said you could use drier soil and the plant and use the roots also, to make the alcohol.  The largest crop that is irrigated in the US is lawn.  Unfortunately it is tough stuff to turn into fuel.  Every town could do with cattails in their sewage lagoons.  Some folks that have wetland could easily grow more cattails on it.  Someone made a joke that Minnesota alone probably could power the country with their more than ten thousand lakes.

              He also talked about a small town in Germany that went completely off the grid for self sufficient energy.  Their surplus energy value last year was over 3 million dollars.  They had no government help and decided to do that as a town!  

              Ted
              On Feb 15, 2012, at 11:32 AM, bigalemc2 wrote:

               

              To all -

              Since her response is still showing up prominently in these last posts on 'Ancient Canal Builders' and the Atlantic Dispersion Overview, I'd like to reiterate to Susan and to everyone else that John Jensen's Ancient Canal Builders site turned out to be wrong, flat out.

              I had joined up with John, and was all excited at his having found something amazing.  But, right in the middle of proving they were not modern, I found out that his WERE, in fact, modern.  Nothing ancient about them at all.

              Please trust me on this, Susan.  I probably have to be as much of an expert on this as anyone can be, and take my word for it:

              John Jensen's canals are not ancient.  Period.

              The IDEA of aquaculture in canals on marshland I DO think is not only a good one, but possibly a terrific source of nutrients and an efficient way of feeding a large population.  It would be flush-through, possibly even more so than modern fish farming, because nutrients come directly from rivers.

              However much I liked the idea, John's canals proved to not be what he thought they were.  They turned out to be three different types of modern canals/channels (in the order I found them out) - mosquito ditches, oil exploration canals for drilling platforms, and muskrat channels.

              On the other hand, looking at the book referenced, those are not the same thing, and without reading the book, I cannot have an opinion about them, other than hip shooting.

              I will make only one - mostly uninformed - observation, that the ones in Peru are in the areas of irrigation that have puzzled and impressed archeologists for a long time.  If so, irrigation canals are something different from what the 'Ancient Canal Builders' site is/was all about.

              Thanks for you patience, folks.


              Steve Garcia

              P.S.  NOTE TO MODERATOR, if we have one: 

              Is there any way to close out this Ancient Canal Builders thread and put these last two or three comments on a differently titled thread?

              S.

              --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, TRAYLOROO <trayloroo@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >
              >  Tell me that book about canals  ... it has an index...... Right?            
              >
              > CAL 
              >  
              >  ===========================
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: Vince v_barrows@...
              > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 9:14 PM
              > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Ancient Canal Builders website & The Atlantic Dispersion Theory (Overview)
              >
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              > Please see the following link for native American contributions regarding canals.
              >
              > http://books.google.com/books?output=html_text&id=QIFTVWJH3doC&q=Canals
              >
              > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan" beldingenglish@ wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > Knock me over with a feather, Steve; sorry I made the assumption you
              > > were still part of the Canalbuilders group. I do have the utmost
              > > respect for you and what you have articulated since I met you at a
              > > World Explorers Club Conf. in Central Illinois many years ago....adore
              > > your dialogues at these web sites, your keen mind, and utmost integrity.
              > > Your ideas about 'glaciers' in posts a few years ago kept me awake a
              > > night or two trying to understand assumptions I'd always made, mainly
              > > because much of what you said seemed to ring true.
              > >
              > > I will nevertheless keep an open mind that there may have been people in
              > > 'ancient' rather than early historic times within the Americas who
              > > created canals when portaging became too cumbersome...
              > >
              > > Are you going to attend the upcoming World Explorers Conference in Ill.
              > > this June? No speakers listed yet but I am thinking of it and will
              > > announce it here when details come on the WEX site. Main web site:
              > > http://wexclub.com/ <http://wexclub.com/> I will go for sure if some
              > > of the members from this group go there...cute Bed and Breakfast nearby.
              > > Is held in a tiny farm town of 246 where David Hatcher Childress has his
              > > main home (clubhouse) and bookstore. Fun, informal conference...
              > >
              > > Susan
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "bigalemc2"
              > > <puppet@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Susan -
              > > >
              > > > I need to inform you that I am no longer part of John Jensen's Ancient
              > > > Canal Builders project.
              > > >
              > > > In investigating the sources of the canals John found, I satisfied
              > > > myself that there were modern explanations for them. I communicated
              > > all
              > > > my findings to John, and he has chosen to continue on with the project
              > > > anyway. But I am content that the canals are not ancient. I wish they
              > > > were, but I don't think so. It was worth looking into, certainly, but
              > > > after looking closely at it, I have to disagree with John.
              > > >
              > > > The two main types of canals were the long straight ones in the Gulf
              > > > coastal areas and the "irrigation" ones along the Eastern Seaboard.
              > > >
              > > > I learned that the long wide ones in the Gulf were dredged for oil
              > > > exploration, mostly in the middle of the 20th century. I learned that
              > > > the "irrigation" ones on the Atlantic coast were "mosquito ditches,"
              > > dug
              > > > to control mosquitos and make the Atlantic coast more habitable for
              > > > humans. The "symbols" turned out to be muskrat dens and the channels
              > > > they "dug" because they get around better in water than waddling
              > > around
              > > > on land. The "symbols" were totally an artifact of Google Earth and
              > > the
              > > > way the satellite images get flattened out.
              > > >
              > > > All these explanations came as surprises to me, but after I saw the
              > > > evidence I was convinced. I am really surprised that John has decided
              > > to
              > > > keep going on this, because I don't see there is anything to it. I
              > > > thought so, but now I don't. Facts convinced me.
              > > >
              > >
              >


            • Susan
              Steve, Vince and All, I try to be careful what headings and cascading posts I use when posting---- especially when replying to messages of other members here.
              Message 6 of 26 , Feb 15, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                Steve, Vince and All,

                I try to be careful what headings and cascading posts I use when posting---- especially when replying to messages of other members here.  I do occasionally resurrect old Posts and subject headings I believe hold merit or of may be of interest to a group such as ours.  Occasionally to support new material under a previously used subject heading, which I sometimes alter.  But i usually make reference to the older date. when including the cascade of older posts within an older thread on the same topic.  As I did last week when re-posting Jim Scherz' 'Old World Units of Measure....' MES article with his and Pam's 2009 supporting posts.  The reposting spawned the sharing of similar avenues of commendable research by Ross Hamilton, Larry Hancock, Vince Barrows, and hopefully,  ongoing commentary when this subject arises again.  So many old posts from this group exemplify dozens of individual members sharing years of insights and carefully documented reports (oftentimes unpatented) to public scrutiny.  Which demonstrate, to me, humility and courage perhaps inherent within the potential synergy of collaborative 'avocational' research.  And boosting the development of comprehensive,  broad-field research based upon scientific method.

                Steve,  you will see in the undated (April, 2011) post under Vince's recent post that I did take your word for the "canals" not being ancient.  Though for awhile, without comment to this group,  continued to follow The ACB web site and John Johnson's Facebook comments (I believe both are still active).  I started finding my own concerns within their work and the direction(s) they were, and may still be taking.   I also did Anot resurrect the Ancient Canal Builders posts, including my own,  from a year ago.  Yet I can  understand why Vince did when, in his post earlier this month, he brought in new material---a link on Native American canals--after undoubtedly doing a diligent search into the nearly 3000 AWS archived posts to find the old thread which included at least a dozen posts on ancient canals, titled under the "Ancient Canal Builders" heading.  Unfortunately, when lifting and writing atop old posts,  YahooGroup's  format does not include the dates of old posts.  So, my undated old post from a year ago beneath Vince's recent post looks as though it is current.  Then, two or three others replied, all under the heading of Ancient Canal Builders.  (i need to add that the Spring, 2011 "Ancient Canal Builders" heading  also included posts on subjects such as the alleged Viking ship-Tisch Mills site near Lake Michigan,  which should have had its own heading!)

                 I am all for bringing back old posts, especially because the YahooGroup Search Bar only goes back a year or so.  Many excellent, yet seemingly irretrievable posts, links, articles are very difficult to find amidst the archives of our group's several years.  Not intending to make a big deal of this matter, it may well serve to caution us all to pay heed to the headings and subject matter we are posting under. 

                Ted, very good letter to the Ohio newsletter and mounds groups.  Thank you also for submitting a couple more drawings.  I hope you are extending your fine artwork, experience and writings beyond these groups and further into the mainstream.

                Larry Hancock's initial post without the link to his NEARA article sent me to that site searching for it.  Which reminded me to mention here that one of our members, Terry Deveau from Halifax, Nova Scotia is webmaster of the large New England Antiquities Research Association.  I am including their main link and a mention that their Spring Meeting (conference?) is April 20-22, 2012 in Concord, New Hampshire.  http://www.neara.org/

                Larry had also submitted links to a 4 or 5 section report he wrote on  Ancient Vermont.  James Clark posted recently he was working on getting the immense report (with dozens of photos and illustrations) into our Links or Files section. I hope you will let us know when that occurs because, when clicking into the "1 New File (or Link)" notice that appears for one week  on our Home Page, we are brought to the main page.  Then have to search through all the files or links to find the new addition.  Another small flaw of the YahooGroup format!

                I earlier meant to post earlier my appreciation, Steve Garcia, for your candor once again in the Jan. 12, 2012 Post #2667 -- under the ANCIENT CHEROKEE ORIGINS heading.  You express from your experience a significant area of thought--and conscience--on the subject.  The straightforwardness of your last line really impacted me.  

                Please continue to post related events.   I don't like to over-post here.   Thanks again for all if your sharings and polite expression of oftentimes very diverse areas of research and personal viewpoints.

                Susan

                Sent from my iPad

                --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "bigalemc2" <puppet@...> wrote:
                >
                > To all -
                >
                > Since her response is still showing up prominently in these last posts
                > on 'Ancient Canal Builders' and the Atlantic Dispersion Overview, I'd
                > like to reiterate to Susan and to everyone else that John Jensen's
                > Ancient Canal Builders site turned out to be wrong, flat out.
                >
                > I had joined up with John, and was all excited at his having found
                > something amazing. But, right in the middle of proving they were not
                > modern, I found out that his WERE, in fact, modern. Nothing ancient
                > about them at all.
                >
                > Please trust me on this, Susan. I probably have to be as much of an
                > expert on this as anyone can be, and take my word for it:
                >
                > John Jensen's canals are not ancient. Period.
                >
                > The IDEA of aquaculture in canals on marshland I DO think is not only a
                > good one, but possibly a terrific source of nutrients and an efficient
                > way of feeding a large population. It would be flush-through, possibly
                > even more so than modern fish farming, because nutrients come directly
                > from rivers.
                >
                > However much I liked the idea, John's canals proved to not be what he
                > thought they were. They turned out to be three different types of
                > modern canals/channels (in the order I found them out) - mosquito
                > ditches, oil exploration canals for drilling platforms, and muskrat
                > channels.
                >
                > On the other hand, looking at the book referenced, those are not the
                > same thing, and without reading the book, I cannot have an opinion about
                > them, other than hip shooting.
                >
                > I will make only one - mostly uninformed - observation, that the ones in
                > Peru are in the areas of irrigation that have puzzled and impressed
                > archeologists for a long time. If so, irrigation canals are something
                > different from what the 'Ancient Canal Builders' site is/was all about.
                >
                > Thanks for you patience, folks.
                >
                >
                > Steve Garcia
                >
                > P.S. NOTE TO MODERATOR, if we have one:
                >
                > Is there any way to close out this Ancient Canal Builders thread and put
                > these last two or three comments on a differently titled thread?
                >
                > S.
                >
                > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, TRAYLOROO
                > trayloroo@ wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >  Tell me that book about canals ... it has an index......
                > Right?           Â
                > >
                > > CALÂ
                > > Â
                > > Â ===========================
                > >
                > >
                > > ________________________________
                > > From: Vince v_barrows@
                > > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                > > Sent: Monday, February 13, 2012 9:14 PM
                > > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Ancient Canal Builders
                > website & The Atlantic Dispersion Theory (Overview)
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Â
                > >
                > > Please see the following link for native American contributions
                > regarding canals.
                > >
                > >
                > http://books.google.com/books?output=html_text&id=QIFTVWJH3doC&q=Canals
                > >
                > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
                > beldingenglish@ wrote:
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Knock me over with a feather, Steve; sorry I made the assumption
                > you
                > > > were still part of the Canalbuilders group. I do have the utmost
                > > > respect for you and what you have articulated since I met you at a
                > > > World Explorers Club Conf. in Central Illinois many years
                > ago....adore
                > > > your dialogues at these web sites, your keen mind, and utmost
                > integrity.
                > > > Your ideas about 'glaciers' in posts a few years ago kept me awake a
                > > > night or two trying to understand assumptions I'd always made,
                > mainly
                > > > because much of what you said seemed to ring true.
                > > >
                > > > I will nevertheless keep an open mind that there may have been
                > people in
                > > > 'ancient' rather than early historic times within the Americas who
                > > > created canals when portaging became too cumbersome...
                > > >
                > > > Are you going to attend the upcoming World Explorers Conference in
                > Ill.
                > > > this June? No speakers listed yet but I am thinking of it and will
                > > > announce it here when details come on the WEX site. Main web site:
                > > > http://wexclub.com/ <http://wexclub.com/> I will go for sure if
                > some
                > > > of the members from this group go there...cute Bed and Breakfast
                > nearby.
                > > > Is held in a tiny farm town of 246 where David Hatcher Childress has
                > his
                > > > main home (clubhouse) and bookstore. Fun, informal conference...
                > > >
                > > > Susan
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "bigalemc2"
                > > > <puppet@> wrote:
                > > > >
                > > > > Susan -
                > > > >
                > > > > I need to inform you that I am no longer part of John Jensen's
                > Ancient
                > > > > Canal Builders project.
                > > > >
                > > > > In investigating the sources of the canals John found, I satisfied
                > > > > myself that there were modern explanations for them. I
                > communicated
                > > > all
                > > > > my findings to John, and he has chosen to continue on with the
                > project
                > > > > anyway. But I am content that the canals are not ancient. I wish
                > they
                > > > > were, but I don't think so. It was worth looking into, certainly,
                > but
                > > > > after looking closely at it, I have to disagree with John.
                > > > >
                > > > > The two main types of canals were the long straight ones in the
                > Gulf
                > > > > coastal areas and the "irrigation" ones along the Eastern
                > Seaboard.
                > > > >
                > > > > I learned that the long wide ones in the Gulf were dredged for oil
                > > > > exploration, mostly in the middle of the 20th century. I learned
                > that
                > > > > the "irrigation" ones on the Atlantic coast were "mosquito
                > ditches,"
                > > > dug
                > > > > to control mosquitos and make the Atlantic coast more habitable
                > for
                > > > > humans. The "symbols" turned out to be muskrat dens and the
                > channels
                > > > > they "dug" because they get around better in water than waddling
                > > > around
                > > > > on land. The "symbols" were totally an artifact of Google Earth
                > and
                > > > the
                > > > > way the satellite images get flattened out.
                > > > >
                > > > > All these explanations came as surprises to me, but after I saw
                > the
                > > > > evidence I was convinced. I am really surprised that John has
                > decided
                > > > to
                > > > > keep going on this, because I don't see there is anything to it. I
                > > > > thought so, but now I don't. Facts convinced me.
                > > > >
                > > >
                > >
                >
              • minnesotastan@yahoo.com
                P.S. NOTE TO MODERATOR, if we have one: Is there any way to close out this Ancient Canal Builders thread and put these last two or three comments on a
                Message 7 of 26 , Feb 16, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  "P.S.  NOTE TO MODERATOR, if we have one: Is there any way to close out this Ancient Canal Builders thread and put these last two or three comments on a differently titled thread?"

                  Susan and Vince and I are what are loosely termed "moderators" on this board (we don't do much actual "moderating" - more erasing of spam).  In answer to your question, I don't know of any way to alter old threads other than just deleting them, and personally I don't have time to go back and "clean up" the board regarding the various erroneous materials that have been posted. 

                  But I do remember the posting of the "ancient canal builders" perhaps a year or two ago, and I quite agree that it has been shown that the canals along the Eastern and Gulf shorelines are modern constructions - not evidence of an pre-contact society.

                  Stan



                  > Since her response is still showing up prominently in these last posts
                  > on 'Ancient Canal Builders' and the Atlantic Dispersion Overview, I'd
                  > like to reiterate to Susan and to everyone else that John Jensen's
                  > Ancient Canal Builders site turned out to be wrong, flat out.
                  >
                  > I had joined up with John, and was all excited at his having found
                  > something amazing.  But, right in the middle of proving they were not
                  > modern, I found out that his WERE, in fact, modern.  Nothing ancient
                  > about them at all.
                  >
                  > Please trust me on this, Susan.  I probably have to be as much of an
                  > expert on this as anyone can be, and take my word for it:
                  >
                  > John Jensen's canals are not ancient.  Period.
                • TRAYLOROO
                  A SUGGESTION  RE  MOVING POSTS TO A NEW THREAD =   Click FORWARD on the old thread Then highlight what you want to move - and leave it highlighted put
                  Message 8 of 26 , Feb 16, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    A SUGGESTION  RE  MOVING POSTS TO A NEW THREAD =
                     
                    Click FORWARD on the old thread
                    Then highlight what you want to move - and leave it highlighted
                    put cursor on highlighed area and click   COPY
                    Close the old thread
                     
                    Open a new thread and in  SUBJECT  line give it a NAME
                    then put cursor in text area and click   PASTE
                    and supposedly all you highlighted will  PASTE  into new text
                    then hit SEND
                     
                    Then I will check your new thread when it arrives here.
                     
                    Cheers
                     
                    Cousin Cal (AKA Cuz Cal)
                    Cousin? According to DNA regression theory, somewhere between now and back 220,000 years .... our family branches will merge into the trunk of the tree. That includes every bipedal humanoid on earth today, Cuz.
                     
                     =========================
                     
                     
                     
                    From: "minnesotastan@..." <minnesotastan@...>
                    To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thursday, February 16, 2012 8:32 PM
                    Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Ancient Canal Builders

                     

                    "P.S.  NOTE TO MODERATOR, if we have one: Is there any way to close out this Ancient Canal Builders thread and put these last two or three comments on a differently titled thread?"

                    Susan and Vince and I are what are loosely termed "moderators" on this board (we don't do much actual "moderating" - more erasing of spam).  In answer to your question, I don't know of any way to alter old threads other than just deleting them, and personally I don't have time to go back and "clean up" the board regarding the various erroneous materials that have been posted. 

                    But I do remember the posting of the "ancient canal builders" perhaps a year or two ago, and I quite agree that it has been shown that the canals along the Eastern and Gulf shorelines are modern constructions - not evidence of an pre-contact society.

                    Stan



                    > Since her response is still showing up prominently in these last
                    posts
                    > on 'Ancient Canal Builders' and the Atlantic Dispersion Overview, I'd
                    > like to reiterate to Susan and to everyone else that John Jensen's
                    > Ancient Canal Builders site turned out to be wrong, flat out.
                    >
                    > I had joined up with John, and was all excited at his having found
                    > something amazing.  But, right in the middle of proving they were not
                    > modern, I found out that his WERE, in fact, modern.  Nothing ancient
                    > about them at all.
                    >
                    > Please trust me on this, Susan.  I probably have to be as much of an
                    > expert on this as anyone can be, and take my word for it:
                    >
                    > John Jensen's canals are not ancient.  Period.


                  • Vincent Barrows
                    Native American contributions to modern society included canal technology, a point That the referenced book makes. This point recognizes much more Fundamental
                    Message 9 of 26 , Feb 18, 2012
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                      Native American contributions to modern society included canal technology, a point
                      That the referenced book makes. This point recognizes much more
                      Fundamental gift if the
                      Native canal building invention,  and does purport to claim that all Canals Were built by natives.
                      The canals that were discussed in the book about native American contributions to modern society confirms that canals were created, used, and maintained Among ancient native American cultures.  It is notable that without the native American contribution, modern culture would not have such advanced canals to use. This is as
                      Fundamental as acknowledging that the ancient native
                      American inventors of The concept Of canals are owed the acknowledgement for
                      Their important contribution to modern society. Native Americans
                      also gave us moderns notable
                      contributions such ad Corn And tobacco, and this message motions to give credit to the ancient native American engineers who contributed canal Technology. To Not allow such credit would be like claiming we invented corn and Tobacco.


                      From: minnesotastan@... <minnesotastan@...>;
                      To: <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>;
                      Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Ancient Canal Builders
                      Sent: Fri, Feb 17, 2012 3:32:54 AM

                       


                      "P.S.  NOTE TO MODERATOR, if we have one: Is there any way to close out this Ancient Canal Builders thread and put these last two or three comments on a differently titled thread?"

                      Susan and Vince and I are what are loosely termed "moderators" on this board (we don't do much actual "moderating" - more erasing of spam).  In answer to your question, I don't know of any way to alter old threads other than just deleting them, and personally I don't have time to go back and "clean up" the board regarding the various erroneous materials that have been posted. 

                      But I do remember the posting of the "ancient canal builders" perhaps a year or two ago, and I quite agree that it has been shown that the canals along the Eastern and Gulf shorelines are modern constructions - not evidence of an pre-contact society.

                      Stan



                      > Since her
                      response is still showing up prominently in these last posts
                      > on 'Ancient Canal Builders' and the Atlantic Dispersion Overview, I'd
                      > like to reiterate to Susan and to everyone else that John Jensen's
                      > Ancient Canal Builders site turned out to be wrong, flat out.
                      >
                      > I had joined up with John, and was all excited at his having found
                      > something amazing.  But, right in the middle of proving they were not
                      > modern, I found out that his WERE, in fact, modern.  Nothing ancient
                      > about them at all.
                      >
                      > Please trust me on this, Susan.  I probably have to be as much of an
                      > expert on this as anyone can be, and take my word for it:
                      >
                      > John Jensen's canals are not ancient.  Period.

                    • Ted Sojka
                      Hello all, I am sure the ditches that were discussed on this site last year that showed up on google earth images, are not ancient. But, It seems to me, in
                      Message 10 of 26 , Feb 18, 2012
                      • 0 Attachment

                        Hello all, 
                        I am sure the ditches that were discussed on this site last year that showed up on google earth images, are not ancient.  But, It seems to me, in the 4 corners region of states, there are irrigated fields that were used by the Asnazzi, Hopi, and Navajo, to use river water diverted to fields alongside the rivers.  Does this ring a bell with anyone?  I was taught that this allowed for farming in that dry area which allowed people to live in this places and grow abundances of food.

                        I have seen images of the ancient roads or trails that connect many of the sites which are created by removing stones from the desert floor and placing them along these walkways in long straight lines. Obviously they had survey techniques that allowed them to create these on the face of the earth.  

                        The discussion on this site led to the conclusion that the East Coast canals were later mosquito ditches dug much later than ancient times.  This was good for the group.  
                        ted

                        On Feb 18, 2012, at 2:48 AM, Vincent Barrows wrote:

                         

                        Native American contributions to modern society included canal technology, a point
                        That the referenced book makes. This point recognizes much more
                        Fundamental gift if the
                        Native canal building invention,  and does purport to claim that all Canals Were built by natives.
                        The canals that were discussed in the book about native American contributions to modern society confirms that canals were created, used, and maintained Among ancient native American cultures.  It is notable that without the native American contribution, modern culture would not have such advanced canals to use. This is as
                        Fundamental as acknowledging that the ancient native
                        American inventors of The concept Of canals are owed the acknowledgement for
                        Their important contribution to modern society. Native Americans
                        also gave us moderns notable
                        contributions such ad Corn And tobacco, and this message motions to give credit to the ancient native American engineers who contributed canal Technology. To Not allow such credit would be like claiming we invented corn and Tobacco.



                        From: minnesotastan@... <minnesotastan@...>;
                        To: <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>;
                        Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Ancient Canal Builders
                        Sent: Fri, Feb 17, 2012 3:32:54 AM

                         


                        "P.S.  NOTE TO MODERATOR, if we have one: Is there any way to close out this Ancient Canal Builders thread and put these last two or three comments on a differently titled thread?"

                        Susan and Vince and I are what are loosely termed "moderators" on this board (we don't do much actual "moderating" - more erasing of spam).  In answer to your question, I don't know of any way to alter old threads other than just deleting them, and personally I don't have time to go back and "clean up" the board regarding the various erroneous materials that have been posted. 

                        But I do remember the posting of the "ancient canal builders" perhaps a year or two ago, and I quite agree that it has been shown that the canals along the Eastern and Gulf shorelines are modern constructions - not evidence of an pre-contact society.

                        Stan



                        > Since her response is still showing up prominently in these last posts
                        > on 'Ancient Canal Builders' and the Atlantic Dispersion Overview, I'd
                        > like to reiterate to Susan and to everyone else that John Jensen's
                        > Ancient Canal Builders site turned out to be wrong, flat out.
                        >
                        > I had joined up with John, and was all excited at his having found
                        > something amazing.  But, right in the middle of proving they were not
                        > modern, I found out that his WERE, in fact, modern.  Nothing ancient
                        > about them at all.
                        >
                        > Please trust me on this, Susan.  I probably have to be as much of an
                        > expert on this as anyone can be, and take my word for it:
                        >
                        > John Jensen's canals are not ancient.  Period.



                      • Vincent Barrows
                        Once again, all canals are NOT ancient, but the canal technology was originally invented by Native Americans. It should be noted that some ancient canals have
                        Message 11 of 26 , Feb 18, 2012
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Once again, all canals are NOT ancient, but the canal technology was originally invented by Native Americans. It should be noted that some ancient canals have survived to modern day. These prehistoric canals include: Florida's Ortona canoe canals, snaketown canals in arizona canals, and Aztec village canals, among others.  There is an article in the group files about the snaketown canals. Floridas canals in central florida are well accepted as ancient native american contributions.
                           
                          The amount of ancient canals that may have existed in the midwest and east coast, but were destroyed through a series of later canal building events (including mosquito drainage canals) is also unknown and lost forever.
                           

                          From: Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...>
                          To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 10:19 AM
                          Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Ancient Canal Builders
                           

                          Hello all, 
                          I am sure the ditches that were discussed on this site last year that showed up on google earth images, are not ancient.  But, It seems to me, in the 4 corners region of states, there are irrigated fields that were used by the Asnazzi, Hopi, and Navajo, to use river water diverted to fields alongside the rivers.  Does this ring a bell with anyone?  I was taught that this allowed for farming in that dry area which allowed people to live in this places and grow abundances of food.

                          I have seen images of the ancient roads or trails that connect many of the sites which are created by removing stones from the desert floor and placing them along these walkways in long straight lines. Obviously they had survey techniques that allowed them to create these on the face of the earth.  

                          The discussion on this site led to the conclusion that the East Coast canals were later mosquito ditches dug much later than ancient times.  This was good for the group.  
                          ted
                          On Feb 18, 2012, at 2:48 AM, Vincent Barrows wrote:
                           
                          Native American contributions to modern society included canal technology, a point t hat the referenced book makes. This point recognizes much more f undamental gift of the Native canal building invention,  and does not purport to claim that all Canals Were built by natives.  The canals that were discussed in the book about native American contributions to modern society confirms that canals were created, used, and maintained Among ancient Native American cultures.  It is notable that without the native American contribution, modern culture would not have such advanced canals to use. This is as f undamental as acknowledging that the ancient native American inventors of the concept Of canals are owed the acknowledgement for t heir important contribution to modern society. Native Americans also gave us moderns notable contributions such as Corn And tobacco, and this message motions to give credit to the ancient native American engineers who contributed canal Technology. To Not allow such credit would be like claiming that we invented corn and Tobacco.
                          From: minnesotastan@... <minnesotastan@...>;
                          To: <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>;
                          Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Ancient Canal Builders
                          Sent: Fri, Feb 17, 2012 3:32:54 AM
                           

                          "P.S.  NOTE TO MODERATOR, if we have one: Is there any way to close out this Ancient Canal Builders thread and put these last two or three comments on a differently titled thread?"

                          Susan and Vince and I are what are loosely termed "moderators" on this board (we don't do much actual "moderating" - more erasing of spam).  In answer to your question, I don't know of any way to alter old threads other than just deleting them, and personally I don't have time to go back and "clean up" the board regarding the various erroneous materials that have been posted. 

                          But I do remember the posting of the "ancient canal builders" perhaps a year or two ago, and I quite agree that it has been shown that the canals along the Eastern and Gulf shorelines are modern constructions - not evidence of an pre-contact society.

                          Stan



                          > Since her response is still showing up prominently in these last posts
                          > on 'Ancient Canal Builders' and the Atlantic Dispersion Overview, I'd
                          > like to reiterate to Susan and to everyone else that John Jensen's
                          > Ancient Canal Builders site turned out to be wrong, flat out.
                          >
                          > I had joined up with John, and was all excited at his having found
                          > something amazing.  But, right in the middle of proving they were not
                          > modern, I found out that his WERE, in fact, modern.  Nothing ancient
                          > about them at all.
                          >
                          > Please trust me on this, Susan.  I probably have to be as much of an
                          > expert on this as anyone can be, and take my word for it:
                          >
                          > John Jensen's canals are not ancient.  Period.
                        • Deb Twigg
                          Sorry - new to this thread - but those of you interested might want to look into the HOHOKAM for ancient water diversion techniques in the southwest. Hope this
                          Message 12 of 26 , Feb 18, 2012
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Sorry - new to this thread - but those of you interested might want to look into the HOHOKAM for ancient water diversion techniques in the southwest. Hope this is helpful.

                            Deb Twigg
                            Executive Director
                            SRAC
                            607-727-3111
                            www.SRACenter.org
                          • TRAYLOROO
                            ANCIENT  CANALS  PERU --- much data if you use that as an Internet search question.  Example:    Evidence Found for Canals That Watered Ancient Peru -
                            Message 13 of 26 , Feb 18, 2012
                            • 0 Attachment
                               
                              ANCIENT  CANALS  PERU --- much data if you use that as an Internet search question.  Example:   
                              [Jan 3, 2006] RUNNING WATER The sites of ancient irrigation canals. People in Peru's Zaña Valley dug the canals as early as 6,700 years ago to divert river water 
                               
                              Cal
                              ================          

                               
                              From: Deb Twigg <deb_twigg@...>
                              To: "ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com" <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Saturday, February 18, 2012 12:09 PM
                              Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Ancient Canal Builders

                               
                              Sorry - new to this thread - but those of you interested might want to look into the HOHOKAM for ancient water diversion techniques in the southwest. Hope this is helpful.

                              Deb Twigg
                              Executive Director
                              SRAC
                              607-727-3111
                              www.SRACenter.org


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