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Re: ojibwe.org

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  • Ross Hamilton
    I have a great deal of respct for the people of the Great Lakes, and can appreciate the effort that must have gone into producing this series. In fact, I
    Message 1 of 9 , Dec 16, 2011
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      I have a great deal of respct for the people of the Great Lakes, and can appreciate the effort that must have gone into producing this series. In fact, I intend to watch the whole thing when I can afford to buy the DVD.
       
      Regarding the Walum Olum however, even the Lenape themselves no longer endose its authenticity. The controversy beween they who wish to believe and they who have shown evidence contradicting its authorship (it is believed to have been authored by a white man in the early nineteenth century) has raged on for many years and will probably continue to do so.
       
      On February 11, 1997, the Oklahoma Lenape, who represent the official seat of Lenape government in the United States today, declared the Walum Olum a hoax and forgery. It's not so much that the ancient Lenape did not have their history intact (the writings of John Heckwelder provide ample backing for the antiquity and influence of the Lenape race), it is that a single man, Constantine Rafinesque, apparently sought to translate English into Lenape in order to gain credit for the preservation of something that only the Morovian missionaris of New Philadelphia, Ohio should have been given credit for--i.e. the real preservation of Lenape migration history.
       
      The real issue here is not what certain current research efforts including the sincere testimonies of living people mean, rather it is a further underscoring of how damaging the European influence has been of Native America from the Spanish on.
    • Vincent Barrows
      I am familiar with the claims made by Oestricher about the Walam Olum being a hoax by Rafinesque, but the real story of its discovery does not add and
      Message 2 of 9 , Dec 16, 2011
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        I am familiar with the claims made by Oestricher about the Walam Olum being a hoax by Rafinesque, but the real story of its discovery does not add and this document is surely a Native american literarary epic.  Oestreicher presented this opinion in 1994 in an effort to debunk the Walam Olum, which has re-written 200 years of scholarly reseach that have supported the documents authenticity. Oestreicher's attempt to re-write history was part of the Post-Modern movement, and should be considered Pseudohistory. The following evidence refutes the prima facie substance of Oestricher's claims.
         
        1. The document was written by Native American Lekhibit according to the text of the Wallum Olum. 
         
        2. The document was first handled by white settler/ Natural History doctorate Malthus A Ward. It was handed in 1820 to Rafinesque by Ward because Rafinesque expressed interest in translating the document.
         
        3. Rafinesque translated the document, at his own admission, from the sources available by 1836. He did not translate from English to Lenape, but instead from the english-lenape disctionaries that were sparsely available.
         
        3. Squier interviewed Ojibway Chief George Copway, who bore testimony to authenticity of the transaltion, and the birchbark and engraved sticks from which it came, as well as the Wallum Olum itself.
         
        4. It was customary for the Ojibway to burn the original document at the end of life.
         
        5. Oestricher claimed in 1994 that Joe Napora has "Recanted" upon hearing Oestrichers opinion on the Walam Olum, including Joe Napora. However, Napora stated "I never recanted anything. But I have always had doubts about Rafinesque. Anyone would. One of my plans, one that will never be realized, is to do a book on Rafinesque. I see him as a sort of European trickster figure. I also had serious reservations about working with the Walam Olum if it was a part of Delaware sacred ritual. Of course it's not always clear in a tribal culture what is sacred and what is not since there is not that clear (and false) division that we have in western cultures. Joe Bruchac assured me that it wasn't, and he, too, had reservations about Raf. But, if the question is, do I think that the Walam Olum as reported (reconstructed or even constructed) by Rafiinesque to be a viable reflection of Delaware culture, then yes I agree. Did Raf create parts of the WO? Almost certainly. I think that he was trying to impose a syntax where it was not in the originals. I think that people, like Oestreicher, placed way too much emphasis on the narrative structure, which, I believe, Raf put in order. If the question is is the WO as represented by Rafinesque a real translation of original graphics in the order that he received them, that were given him by that Doctor Ward who may or may not have existed, I don't think so. Perhaps I'm just splitting hairs in order to not take a stance one way or the other, but it's a stance that seems besides the point. And I don't think that the point has been clarified. I also question the good faith of Oestreicher."
         
        5.  in 1994, Gerald Vizenor points out that Native American literatures "have been overburdened with critical interpretations based on structuralism and other social science theories" that mis-represent the culture those literatures come from. Worse, "Native American Indian imagination and the pleasures of language games are disheartened in the manifest manners of documentation and the imposition of cultural representation".
         
        6. The Lenape in Oklahoma did not have the birchbark scrolls that the ojibwe did. The DVD/ Book set clearly states that the Walam Olum
         
        So, I believe that the Native American Literatures should be continue to be read as literature and epic poetry. They are a worthy subject to students of aboriginal history. 

         

        From: Ross Hamilton <d.ross.hamilton@...>
        To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, December 16, 2011 8:08 AM
        Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: ojibwe.org

         
         
         
        I have a great deal of respct for the people of the Great Lakes, and can appreciate the effort that must have gone into producing this series. In fact, I intend to watch the whole thing when I can afford to buy the DVD.
         
        Regarding the Walum Olum however, even the Lenape themselves no longer endose its authenticity. The controversy beween they who wish to believe and they who have shown evidence contradicting its authorship (it is believed to have been authored by a white man in the early nineteenth century) has raged on for many years and will probably continue to do so.
         
        On February 11, 1997, the Oklahoma Lenape, who represent the official seat of Lenape government in the United States today, declared the Walum Olum a hoax and forgery. It's not so much that the ancient Lenape did not have their history intact (the writings of John Heckwelder provide ample backing for the antiquity and influence of the Lenape race), it is that a single man, Constantine Rafinesque, apparently sought to translate English into Lenape in order to gain credit for the preservation of something that only the Morovian missionaris of New Philadelphia, Ohio should have been given credit for--i.e. the real preservation of Lenape migration history.
         
        The real issue here is not what certain current research efforts including the sincere testimonies of living people mean, rather it is a further underscoring of how damaging the European influence has been of Native America from the Spanish on.
         
         
         
        ----------
         
         
        The Lenni Lenapi are identified as the ancient ancestors of the Ojibwe and the Wallum Olum is identified as the oldest written record in North America by the Lenni Lenapi which dates back prior to 1600 BC, according to 2002 PBS documentary and companion book, Ojibwe Waasa Inaabidaa.
        The Ojibwe published the Waasa Inaabidaa in 2002. It is a six part PBS series which won five (5) emmy awards. The Companion Book Ojibwe: Waasa Inaabidaa, We look in all directions is an outstanding example of First Nations history from the Native perspective. Thomas Peacock is an Ojibwe educator and writer from Fond du Lac Band of Lake Superior Ojibwe. He is also an associate professor of education at the University of Minnesota Duluth. This book is a personal history as well as a Nation's history told in a well-documented and informative style. The chapters begin with the author's personal anecdotes that relate to the topic. The first chapter is Ojibwemowin: Ojibwe Oral Tradition and it describes the importance of language, the oral tradition, storytelling, and the story of creation. The author relies on the Delaware Nation's Wallum Olum as a key source for Ojibwe history and origins. http://www.ojibwe.org/ The sources detail the Red Score/ Wallum Olum. This source has been reverted for the third time on the Walam Olum page. However, the Wallum Olum is specifically attributed to the Ojibwe Ancestors (Lenni Lenape) in these sources.
        Suggest looking at the overview description about the Ojibwe documentatary here http://www.ojibwe.org/home/overview_description.html It should be sourced to show that "PBS Waasa Inaabidaa…We Look In All Directions is a six-part television documentary series produced by WDSE in Duluth, Minn., about the second largest tribe in North America, the Anishinaabe/Ojibwe (Chippewa) nation of the upper Great Lakes region. The series includes more than one hundred (100) interviews with tribal elders, historians, youth and leaders from the ninteen (19) Ojibwe bands in Michigan, Wisconsin and Minnesota. These interviews, along with 3,000 archival photographs, interviews with academic historians, original and historic artwork, and dramatic re-enactments, illustrate the Ojibwe people, culture and language through the past two centuries."... As stated in the Waasa Inaabidaa, the Lenni Lenape were the ancient ancestors of the Ojibwe. "An Epic Story of migration, known as the Wallum Olum, Was told by our ancient ancestors, the Lenni Lenape."



      • quarefremeruntgentes7@yahoo.com
        Did the Iroquois always occupy the New York / Pennsylvania region, or did they migrate there from further South at some point in time? While I appreciate this
        Message 3 of 9 , Jan 8, 2012
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          Did the Iroquois always occupy the New York / Pennsylvania region, or did they migrate there from further South at some point in time?

          While I appreciate this information, I find myself attempting to remember Native histories and prehistories that I studied at Rutgers 25 years ago. Presumably, the Lene Lenape covered more territory than just the Delaware Valley prior to the onset of hostilities between them and the Iroquois.

          Jeff

          Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

          -----Original Message-----
          From: "Vince" <v_barrows@...>
          Sender: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 18:45:28
          To: <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
          Reply-To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] ojibwe.org

          The Lenni Lenapi are identified as the ancient ancestors of the Ojibwe and the Wallum Olum is identified as the oldest written record in North America by the Lenni Lenapi which dates back prior to 1600 BC, according to 2002 PBS documentary and companion book, Ojibwe Waasa Inaabidaa.

          The Ojibwe published the Waasa Inaabidaa in 2002. It is a six part PBS series which won five (5) emmy awards. The Companion Book Ojibwe: Waasa Inaabidaa, We look in all directions is an outstanding example of First Nations history from the Native perspective. Thomas Peacock is an Ojibwe educator and writer from Fond du Lac Band of Lake Superior Ojibwe. He is also an associate professor of education at the University of Minnesota Duluth. This book is a personal history as well as a Nation's history told in a well-documented and informative style. The chapters begin with the author's personal anecdotes that relate to the topic. The first chapter is Ojibwemowin: Ojibwe Oral Tradition and it describes the importance of language, the oral tradition, storytelling, and the story of creation. The author relies on the Delaware Nation's Wallum Olum as a key source for Ojibwe history and origins. http://www.ojibwe.org/ The sources detail the Red Score/ Wallum Olum. This source has been reverted for the third time on the Walam Olum page. However, the Wallum Olum is specifically attributed to the Ojibwe Ancestors (Lenni Lenape) in these sources.

          Suggest looking at the overview description about the Ojibwe documentatary here http://www.ojibwe.org/home/overview_description.html It should be sourced to show that "PBS Waasa Inaabidaa…We Look In All Directions is a six-part television documentary series produced by WDSE in Duluth, Minn., about the second largest tribe in North America, the Anishinaabe/Ojibwe (Chippewa) nation of the upper Great Lakes region. The series includes more than one hundred (100) interviews with tribal elders, historians, youth and leaders from the ninteen (19) Ojibwe bands in Michigan, Wisconsin and Minnesota. These interviews, along with 3,000 archival photographs, interviews with academic historians, original and historic artwork, and dramatic re-enactments, illustrate the Ojibwe people, culture and language through the past two centuries."... As stated in the Waasa Inaabidaa, the Lenni Lenape were the ancient ancestors of the Ojibwe. "An Epic Story of migration, known as the Wallum Olum, Was told by our ancient ancestors, the Lenni Lenape."




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        • Vincent Barrows
          In 1570, the Mohawk, Seneca, Onondaga, Oneida, and Cayuga formed a confederacy called the League of the Iroquois. This governing body was made up of 50
          Message 4 of 9 , Jan 9, 2012
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            In 1570, the Mohawk, Seneca, Onondaga, Oneida, and Cayuga formed a confederacy called the League of the Iroquois. This governing body was made up of 50 members whose task was to confer about problems with outside tribes.


            From: quarefremeruntgentes7@... <quarefremeruntgentes7@...>;
            To: <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>;
            Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] ojibwe.org
            Sent: Mon, Jan 9, 2012 4:23:56 AM

            Did the Iroquois always occupy the New York / Pennsylvania region, or did they migrate there from further South at some point in time?

            While I appreciate this information, I find myself attempting to remember Native histories and prehistories that I studied at Rutgers 25 years ago. Presumably, the Lene Lenape covered more territory than just the Delaware Valley prior to the onset of hostilities between them and the Iroquois.

            Jeff

            Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

            -----Original Message-----
            From: "Vince" <v_barrows@...>
            Sender: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 18:45:28
            To: <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
            Reply-To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] ojibwe.org

            The Lenni Lenapi are identified as the ancient ancestors of the Ojibwe and the Wallum Olum is identified as the oldest written record in North America by the Lenni Lenapi which dates back prior to 1600 BC, according to 2002 PBS documentary and companion book, Ojibwe Waasa Inaabidaa.

            The Ojibwe published the Waasa Inaabidaa in 2002. It is a six part PBS series which won five (5) emmy awards. The Companion Book Ojibwe: Waasa Inaabidaa, We look in all directions is an outstanding example of First Nations history from the Native perspective. Thomas Peacock is an Ojibwe educator and writer from Fond du Lac Band of Lake Superior Ojibwe. He is also an associate professor of education at the University of Minnesota Duluth. This book is a personal history as well as a Nation's history told in a well-documented and informative style. The chapters begin with the author's personal anecdotes that relate to the topic. The first chapter is Ojibwemowin: Ojibwe Oral Tradition and it describes the importance of language, the oral tradition, storytelling, and the story of creation. The author relies on the Delaware Nation's Wallum Olum as a key source for Ojibwe history and origins. http://www.ojibwe.org/ The sources detail the Red Score/ Wallum Olum. This source has been reverted for the third time on the Walam Olum page. However, the Wallum Olum is specifically attributed to the Ojibwe Ancestors (Lenni Lenape) in these sources.

            Suggest looking at the overview description about the Ojibwe documentatary here http://www.ojibwe.org/home/overview_description.html It should be sourced to show that "PBS Waasa Inaabidaa…We Look In All Directions is a six-part television documentary series produced by WDSE in Duluth, Minn., about the second largest tribe in North America, the Anishinaabe/Ojibwe (Chippewa) nation of the upper Great Lakes region. The series includes more than one hundred (100) interviews with tribal elders, historians, youth and leaders from the ninteen (19) Ojibwe bands in Michigan, Wisconsin and Minnesota. These interviews, along with 3,000 archival photographs, interviews with academic historians, original and historic artwork, and dramatic re-enactments, illustrate the Ojibwe people, culture and language through the past two centuries."... As stated in the Waasa Inaabidaa, the Lenni Lenape were the ancient ancestors of the Ojibwe. "An Epic Story of migration, known as the Wallum Olum, Was told by our ancient ancestors, the Lenni Lenape."




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          • Larry Hancock
            While I do not have the reference any longer, years ago I read somewhere that the Iriquois winter count recorded that they migrated from somewhere south all
            Message 5 of 9 , Jan 10, 2012
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              While I do not have the reference any longer, years ago I read somewhere that the Iriquois winter count recorded that they migrated from somewhere south all the way up into Canada then were forced back to New York state, driving a wedge between the Objibwa and more eastern Algonquian peoples. I also read that the Objibwa language is more closely related to the Algonkian languages of Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine on East than to Algonkian languages farther south. 

              --- On Mon, 1/9/12, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...> wrote:

              From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
              Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] ojibwe.org
              To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Monday, January 9, 2012, 11:14 PM

               
              In 1570, the Mohawk, Seneca, Onondaga, Oneida, and Cayuga formed a confederacy called the League of the Iroquois. This governing body was made up of 50 members whose task was to confer about problems with outside tribes.


              From: quarefremeruntgentes7@... <quarefremeruntgentes7@...>;
              To: <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>;
              Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] ojibwe.org
              Sent: Mon, Jan 9, 2012 4:23:56 AM

              Did the Iroquois always occupy the New York / Pennsylvania region, or did they migrate there from further South at some point in time?

              While I appreciate this information, I find myself attempting to remember Native histories and prehistories that I studied at Rutgers 25 years ago. Presumably, the Lene Lenape covered more territory than just the Delaware Valley prior to the onset of hostilities between them and the Iroquois.

              Jeff

              Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

              -----Original Message-----
              From: "Vince" <v_barrows@...>
              Sender: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 18:45:28
              To: <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
              Reply-To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] ojibwe.org

              The Lenni Lenapi are identified as the ancient ancestors of the Ojibwe and the Wallum Olum is identified as the oldest written record in North America by the Lenni Lenapi which dates back prior to 1600 BC, according to 2002 PBS documentary and companion book, Ojibwe Waasa Inaabidaa.

              The Ojibwe published the Waasa Inaabidaa in 2002. It is a six part PBS series which won five (5) emmy awards. The Companion Book Ojibwe: Waasa Inaabidaa, We look in all directions is an outstanding example of First Nations history from the Native perspective. Thomas Peacock is an Ojibwe educator and writer from Fond du Lac Band of Lake Superior Ojibwe. He is also an associate professor of education at the University of Minnesota Duluth. This book is a personal history as well as a Nation's history told in a well-documented and informative style. The chapters begin with the author's personal anecdotes that relate to the topic. The first chapter is Ojibwemowin: Ojibwe Oral Tradition and it describes the importance of language, the oral tradition, storytelling, and the story of creation. The author relies on the Delaware Nation's Wallum Olum as a key source for Ojibwe history and origins. http://www.ojibwe.org/ The sources detail the Red Score/ Wallum Olum. This source has been reverted for the third time on the Walam Olum page. However, the Wallum Olum is specifically attributed to the Ojibwe Ancestors (Lenni Lenape) in these sources.

              Suggest looking at the overview description about the Ojibwe documentatary here http://www.ojibwe.org/home/overview_description.html It should be sourced to show that "PBS Waasa Inaabidaa…We Look In All Directions is a six-part television documentary series produced by WDSE in Duluth, Minn., about the second largest tribe in North America, the Anishinaabe/Ojibwe (Chippewa) nation of the upper Great Lakes region. The series includes more than one hundred (100) interviews with tribal elders, historians, youth and leaders from the ninteen (19) Ojibwe bands in Michigan, Wisconsin and Minnesota. These interviews, along with 3,000 archival photographs, interviews with academic historians, original and historic artwork, and dramatic re-enactments, illustrate the Ojibwe people, culture and language through the past two centuries."... As stated in the Waasa Inaabidaa, the Lenni Lenape were the ancient ancestors of the Ojibwe. "An Epic Story of migration, known as the Wallum Olum, Was told by our ancient ancestors, the Lenni Lenape."




              ------------------------------------

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              ------------------------------------

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                  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ancient_waterways_society/

              <*> Your email settings:
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            • martincarriere@rocketmail.com
              In their own tellings the Iroquois did not hold a memory of snow until after they had travelled north. They had no traditions of winter clothing, snow shoes or
              Message 6 of 9 , Jan 11, 2012
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                In their own tellings the Iroquois did not hold a memory of snow until after they had travelled north. They had no traditions of winter clothing, snow shoes or how to function outdoors in the snow. They basically remained snowbound in their lodgings till the spring. It is our understanding that the northern territories were occupied by the Huron confederacy families at that time not the Ojibwa.

                Best,
                Martin Carriere


                --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Larry Hancock <hancocklarry40@...> wrote:
                >
                > While I do not have the reference any longer, years ago I read somewhere that the Iriquois winter count recorded that they migrated from somewhere south all the way up into Canada then were forced back to New York state, driving a wedge between the Objibwa and more eastern Algonquian peoples. I also read that the Objibwa language is more closely related to the Algonkian languages of Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine on East than to Algonkian languages farther south. 
                >
                > --- On Mon, 1/9/12, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
                > Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] ojibwe.org
                > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                > Date: Monday, January 9, 2012, 11:14 PM
                >
                >
                >
                >  
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > In 1570, the Mohawk, Seneca, Onondaga, Oneida, and Cayuga formed a confederacy called the League of the Iroquois. This governing body was made up of 50 members whose task was to confer about problems with outside tribes.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > From: quarefremeruntgentes7@... <quarefremeruntgentes7@...>;
                > To: <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>;
                > Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] ojibwe.org
                > Sent: Mon, Jan 9, 2012 4:23:56 AM
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > Did the Iroquois always occupy the New York / Pennsylvania region, or did they migrate there from further South at some point in time?
                >
                > While I appreciate this information, I find myself attempting to remember Native histories and prehistories that I studied at Rutgers 25 years ago. Presumably, the Lene Lenape covered more territory than just the Delaware Valley prior to the onset of hostilities between them and the Iroquois.
                >
                > Jeff
                >
                > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
                >
                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: "Vince" <v_barrows@...>
                > Sender: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 18:45:28
                > To: <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                > Reply-To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] ojibwe.org
                >
                > The Lenni Lenapi are identified as the ancient ancestors of the Ojibwe and the Wallum Olum is identified as the oldest written record in North America by the Lenni Lenapi which dates back prior to 1600 BC, according to 2002 PBS documentary and companion book, Ojibwe Waasa Inaabidaa.
                >
                > The Ojibwe published the Waasa Inaabidaa in 2002. It is a six part PBS series which won five (5) emmy awards. The Companion Book Ojibwe: Waasa Inaabidaa, We look in all directions is an outstanding example of First Nations history from the Native perspective. Thomas Peacock is an Ojibwe educator and writer from Fond du Lac Band of Lake Superior Ojibwe. He is also an associate professor of education at the University of Minnesota Duluth. This book is a personal history as well as a Nation's history told in a well-documented and informative style. The chapters begin with the author's personal anecdotes that relate to the topic. The first chapter is Ojibwemowin: Ojibwe Oral Tradition and it describes the importance of language, the oral tradition, storytelling, and the story of creation. The author relies on the Delaware Nation's Wallum Olum as a key source for Ojibwe history and origins. http://www.ojibwe.org/ The sources detail the Red Score/ Wallum Olum.
                > This source has been reverted for the third time on the Walam Olum page. However, the Wallum Olum is specifically attributed to the Ojibwe Ancestors (Lenni Lenape) in these sources.
                >
                > Suggest looking at the overview description about the Ojibwe documentatary here http://www.ojibwe.org/home/overview_description.html It should be sourced to show that "PBS Waasa Inaabidaa…We Look In All Directions is a six-part television documentary series produced by WDSE in Duluth, Minn., about the second largest tribe in North America, the Anishinaabe/Ojibwe (Chippewa) nation of the upper Great Lakes region. The series includes more than one hundred (100) interviews with tribal elders, historians, youth and leaders from the ninteen (19) Ojibwe bands in Michigan, Wisconsin and Minnesota. These interviews, along with 3,000 archival photographs, interviews with academic historians, original and historic artwork, and dramatic re-enactments, illustrate the Ojibwe people, culture and language through the past two centuries."... As stated in the Waasa Inaabidaa, the Lenni Lenape were the ancient ancestors of the Ojibwe. "An Epic Story of migration, known
                > as the Wallum Olum, Was told by our ancient ancestors, the Lenni Lenape."
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
              • Ted Sojka
                I am sure glad for the information you all have sent to Jeff. Jeff, it is very good to learn from all these great people on line. I have sent a few comments to
                Message 7 of 9 , Jan 11, 2012
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                  I am sure glad for the information you all have sent to Jeff.

                  Jeff, it is very good to learn from all these great people on line.  

                  I have sent a few comments to him as not to bore you all with my wit and wisdom, or lack of it!
                  I think traditional education might have a leg up with an entire community was devoted to teaching children history, myth, and legend.  For those in the dominant society who think we do no have myths, think of Washington's cherry tree, or Daniel Boone and the killing of the bear when he was only three?   Washington crossing the Deleware is now in a new version without the stars and stripes, which was not produced until a year after the event. He rode a ferry type barge rather than the row boat in our common memory.  
                  Gathering fish in the spring floods by Ted Sojka

                  Does someone out there have a spare computer to send to Susan our ailing moderator who has recovered from her surgery, but did tell me that he computer did not survive!

                  ted

                  Someone please educate us all on the Chippewa and Ojibway.  Some locals here were moved to land in between the Sioux and Ojibway in Minnesota around 1862.  They had to fight both for awhile.  Coming Thunder was one of these fellows.  An insult added to injury as he and his followers were first put into a DMZ in between the Sac and Fox and the Sioux of Wabasha's band.  

                  Coming Thunder photographed at Fort Snelling where he was being held in "protective custody"  at Fort Snelling Minnesota during the 1862 Sioux uprising.   He wears the peace medal given out at the treaty of 1825.  

                  There was an artist present at this treaty and this may be a portrait painted at that time at Fort Crawford at Prarie du Chien.  
                  Thanks to Professor David Faldet who wrote a book called "Oneota Flow" and
                  has taken the time to know many of the descendants of this Ho Chunk leader.

                  .
                  On Jan 11, 2012, at 2:06 PM, martincarriere@... wrote:

                   

                  In their own tellings the Iroquois did not hold a memory of snow until after they had travelled north. They had no traditions of winter clothing, snow shoes or how to function outdoors in the snow. They basically remained snowbound in their lodgings till the spring. It is our understanding that the northern territories were occupied by the Huron confederacy families at that time not the Ojibwa.

                  Best,
                  Martin Carriere

                  --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Larry Hancock <hancocklarry40@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > While I do not have the reference any longer, years ago I read somewhere that the Iriquois winter count recorded that they migrated from somewhere south all the way up into Canada then were forced back to New York state, driving a wedge between the Objibwa and more eastern Algonquian peoples. I also read that the Objibwa language is more closely related to the Algonkian languages of Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine on East than to Algonkian languages farther south. 
                  >
                  > --- On Mon, 1/9/12, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...>
                  > Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] ojibwe.org
                  > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Monday, January 9, 2012, 11:14 PM
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >  
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > In 1570, the Mohawk, Seneca, Onondaga, Oneida, and Cayuga formed a confederacy called the League of the Iroquois. This governing body was made up of 50 members whose task was to confer about problems with outside tribes.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > From: quarefremeruntgentes7@... <quarefremeruntgentes7@...>;
                  > To: <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>;
                  > Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] ojibwe.org
                  > Sent: Mon, Jan 9, 2012 4:23:56 AM
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Did the Iroquois always occupy the New York / Pennsylvania region, or did they migrate there from further South at some point in time?
                  >
                  > While I appreciate this information, I find myself attempting to remember Native histories and prehistories that I studied at Rutgers 25 years ago. Presumably, the Lene Lenape covered more territory than just the Delaware Valley prior to the onset of hostilities between them and the Iroquois.
                  >
                  > Jeff
                  >
                  > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: "Vince" <v_barrows@...>
                  > Sender: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 18:45:28
                  > To: <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Reply-To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] ojibwe.org
                  >
                  > The Lenni Lenapi are identified as the ancient ancestors of the Ojibwe and the Wallum Olum is identified as the oldest written record in North America by the Lenni Lenapi which dates back prior to 1600 BC, according to 2002 PBS documentary and companion book, Ojibwe Waasa Inaabidaa.
                  >
                  > The Ojibwe published the Waasa Inaabidaa in 2002. It is a six part PBS series which won five (5) emmy awards. The Companion Book Ojibwe: Waasa Inaabidaa, We look in all directions is an outstanding example of First Nations history from the Native perspective. Thomas Peacock is an Ojibwe educator and writer from Fond du Lac Band of Lake Superior Ojibwe. He is also an associate professor of education at the University of Minnesota Duluth. This book is a personal history as well as a Nation's history told in a well-documented and informative style. The chapters begin with the author's personal anecdotes that relate to the topic. The first chapter is Ojibwemowin: Ojibwe Oral Tradition and it describes the importance of language, the oral tradition, storytelling, and the story of creation. The author relies on the Delaware Nation's Wallum Olum as a key source for Ojibwe history and origins. http://www.ojibwe.org/ The sources detail the Red Score/ Wallum Olum.
                  > This source has been reverted for the third time on the Walam Olum page. However, the Wallum Olum is specifically attributed to the Ojibwe Ancestors (Lenni Lenape) in these sources.
                  >
                  > Suggest looking at the overview description about the Ojibwe documentatary here http://www.ojibwe.org/home/overview_description.html It should be sourced to show that "PBS Waasa Inaabidaa…We Look In All Directions is a six-part television documentary series produced by WDSE in Duluth, Minn., about the second largest tribe in North America, the Anishinaabe/Ojibwe (Chippewa) nation of the upper Great Lakes region. The series includes more than one hundred (100) interviews with tribal elders, historians, youth and leaders from the ninteen (19) Ojibwe bands in Michigan, Wisconsin and Minnesota. These interviews, along with 3,000 archival photographs, interviews with academic historians, original and historic artwork, and dramatic re-enactments, illustrate the Ojibwe people, culture and language through the past two centuries."... As stated in the Waasa Inaabidaa, the Lenni Lenape were the ancient ancestors of the Ojibwe. "An Epic Story of migration, known
                  > as the Wallum Olum, Was told by our ancient ancestors, the Lenni Lenape."
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >


                • james m clark jr
                  Hey Martin, AWS, That seems to be an observant prespective that would otherwise seem nearly impossible to have beem overlook perhaps by other authors on
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jan 25, 2012
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hey Martin, AWS,

                    That seems to be an observant prespective that would otherwise seem nearly impossible to have beem overlook perhaps by other authors on Indigenious peoples; especially the Iroquois and the relationship with the Cherokee Nation. I admit that it has been for me in times past, had, and still has been, rather difficult as even up to now to distinguish various links of what little I have tried to graps at times among customs and tellings of the Elders. Trying to absorb the Southeasten perspective of the Cheorkee often seems to have made me disregard those in the west or north as it didn't seem to help much later prefering Indigenious authors as oppossed to either older books with more of a colonialist vibe or what most would consider a modern norm.

                    I had considered deleting message #2675 at AWS and adding it to this thread regarding some of the statments and formerly finding myself at a dead end since 2007. However, it is online already which may serve more as a note to self that overall even the following perhaps should be regarded as among the Inca and that I am not as knowedgable of the Huron confederacy families as I would like to be.

                    Until now, I have not considered the Wari being connected to the Huron confederacy families but had perhaps been consistant in this error reguarding the Huari Empire as well.

                    Who Was Who in the Huari Empire*
                    Institute of Andean Studies 33rd annual meeting, January 8-9,
                    1993, UC-Berkeley © Patricia Knobloch, 1993
                    http://www-rohan.sdsu.edu/~bharley/WWWIAS93Paper.html

                    At any rate, Huari Titu Capac listed as the 83 ruler in A.D. 225 in precolumbian/preIncan times toward the end of the "true Florescent Era" according to Dr. Hoeh, although links about 9 eras perviously in the same list lists before this era, makes mention of a Burmese Arakan people before the Cultist era at the time of [39.] Capac Raymi Amauta -- 1000 bce- others had also migrated to the Russian Steppes.

                    37. Tchinchi Roca Amauta 20 1040
                    38. Tupac Amaru Amauta 25 1020
                    39. Capac Raymi Amauta -- 1000

                    The late Dr. Hoeh reguarding Capac Raymi Amauta:

                    This ruler instituted certain festivals in his name. He is parallel
                    with the time of Odin I of Denmark and of Solomon. He was the
                    mainspring behind the development of what archaeologists call the
                    Cultist Era. This Era is illustrative of the contact between Old and
                    New World during certain significant ages. (Hoeh 1963).

                    40. IllJa Tupac 3 --
                    --
                    41. Tupac Amauta 3 990
                    42. Huanacauri I 4 --

                    be well,
                    jamey

                    --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "martincarriere@..." <martincarriere@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > In their own tellings the Iroquois did not hold a memory of snow until after they had travelled north. They had no traditions of winter clothing, snow shoes or how to function outdoors in the snow. They basically remained snowbound in their lodgings till the spring. It is our understanding that the northern territories were occupied by the Huron confederacy families at that time not the Ojibwa.
                    >
                    > Best,
                    > Martin Carriere
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Larry Hancock <hancocklarry40@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > > While I do not have the reference any longer, years ago I read somewhere that the Iriquois winter count recorded that they migrated from somewhere south all the way up into Canada then were forced back to New York state, driving a wedge between the Objibwa and more eastern Algonquian peoples. I also read that the Objibwa language is more closely related to the Algonkian languages of Vermont, New Hampshire, Maine on East than to Algonkian languages farther south. 
                    > >
                    > > --- On Mon, 1/9/12, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@> wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > From: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@>
                    > > Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] ojibwe.org
                    > > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Date: Monday, January 9, 2012, 11:14 PM
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >  
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > In 1570, the Mohawk, Seneca, Onondaga, Oneida, and Cayuga formed a confederacy called the League of the Iroquois. This governing body was made up of 50 members whose task was to confer about problems with outside tribes.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > From: quarefremeruntgentes7@ <quarefremeruntgentes7@>;
                    > > To: <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>;
                    > > Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] ojibwe.org
                    > > Sent: Mon, Jan 9, 2012 4:23:56 AM
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Did the Iroquois always occupy the New York / Pennsylvania region, or did they migrate there from further South at some point in time?
                    > >
                    > > While I appreciate this information, I find myself attempting to remember Native histories and prehistories that I studied at Rutgers 25 years ago. Presumably, the Lene Lenape covered more territory than just the Delaware Valley prior to the onset of hostilities between them and the Iroquois.
                    > >
                    > > Jeff
                    > >
                    > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
                    > >
                    > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > From: "Vince" <v_barrows@>
                    > > Sender: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Date: Tue, 13 Dec 2011 18:45:28
                    > > To: <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                    > > Reply-To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] ojibwe.org
                    > >
                    > > The Lenni Lenapi are identified as the ancient ancestors of the Ojibwe and the Wallum Olum is identified as the oldest written record in North America by the Lenni Lenapi which dates back prior to 1600 BC, according to 2002 PBS documentary and companion book, Ojibwe Waasa Inaabidaa.
                    > >
                    > > The Ojibwe published the Waasa Inaabidaa in 2002. It is a six part PBS series which won five (5) emmy awards. The Companion Book Ojibwe: Waasa Inaabidaa, We look in all directions is an outstanding example of First Nations history from the Native perspective. Thomas Peacock is an Ojibwe educator and writer from Fond du Lac Band of Lake Superior Ojibwe. He is also an associate professor of education at the University of Minnesota Duluth. This book is a personal history as well as a Nation's history told in a well-documented and informative style. The chapters begin with the author's personal anecdotes that relate to the topic. The first chapter is Ojibwemowin: Ojibwe Oral Tradition and it describes the importance of language, the oral tradition, storytelling, and the story of creation. The author relies on the Delaware Nation's Wallum Olum as a key source for Ojibwe history and origins. http://www.ojibwe.org/ The sources detail the Red Score/ Wallum Olum.
                    > > This source has been reverted for the third time on the Walam Olum page. However, the Wallum Olum is specifically attributed to the Ojibwe Ancestors (Lenni Lenape) in these sources.
                    > >
                    > > Suggest looking at the overview description about the Ojibwe documentatary here http://www.ojibwe.org/home/overview_description.html It should be sourced to show that "PBS Waasa Inaabidaa…We Look In All Directions is a six-part television documentary series produced by WDSE in Duluth, Minn., about the second largest tribe in North America, the Anishinaabe/Ojibwe (Chippewa) nation of the upper Great Lakes region. The series includes more than one hundred (100) interviews with tribal elders, historians, youth and leaders from the ninteen (19) Ojibwe bands in Michigan, Wisconsin and Minnesota. These interviews, along with 3,000 archival photographs, interviews with academic historians, original and historic artwork, and dramatic re-enactments, illustrate the Ojibwe people, culture and language through the past two centuries."... As stated in the Waasa Inaabidaa, the Lenni Lenape were the ancient ancestors of the Ojibwe. "An Epic Story of migration, known
                    > > as the Wallum Olum, Was told by our ancient ancestors, the Lenni Lenape."
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ------------------------------------
                    > >
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ------------------------------------
                    > >
                    > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    > >
                    >
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