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Re: The Prince of Wales in 1170-1190 Madoc/Madog

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  • james m clark jr
    I think I ve always suspected visitors to the Americas, namely South America. The mentality I once had in regards to a degree major in Ancient history that
    Message 1 of 23 , Apr 3, 2011
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      I think I've always suspected visitors to the Americas, namely South America. The mentality I once had in regards to a degree major in Ancient history that quickly became a reality that I'd never be able to reach the recomended academic level yet I was to excel in was not to reassuring. I was stunded and bacically the anthropology of North Amercria and a total reality check regarding Indigenous peoples was just to much to ignore considering the reputitious reminder that this or that needs to be reconsidered over and over again, but rarely it seems that progress is ever really made and when it is finally it seems to always be a form of delay and procratination, like a grant that will always be owed on borrowed time. Regarding Religion that is another matter as an aclaimed Unitarian Monothesis yet Islamic esorticism is perhaps along with understanding various Indigenous cultures seems to be as deep and as wide as the Sea itself which I intend limit myself due to much that isn't translated clearly in the english language but it's getting there.

      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-12851772

      It seems Mr. Welsh [Wikiipedia] is up on the latest hype right in the mix of the latest media hype. According to ixquick, this is the second most read article regarding the latest buzz, claims, and hoax informants.

      http://news.yahoo.com/s/yblog_thelookout/20110330/ts_yblog_thelookout/could-lead\\-codices-prove-the-major-discovery-of-christian-history

      Perhaps soon some will suggest that these tablets were made for or by lepers that labored in lead mines.

      jmcjr

      --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Chris Patenaude <yacrispyubetcha@...> wrote:
      >
      > Replying to the first post of this thread.
      > In the link, noticed the very famous Moundville hand-eye. Had in my own net-clips file the Eye Hand Gorget. Found the Haida Hand Eye from the Pacific NW. (See attached)
      >
      > Compare with ancient Indian symbology such as the White Tara, goddess of Compassion. She has 7 eyes, three in her face (two natural and one in her forehead) two in her palms and two in the soles of her feet.
      >
      > Compare with the Hamsa tradition of the Muslim and Hebrew cultures:
      > >  
      >
      > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamsa%c2%a0%c2%a0 <
      >
      > How can people continue to shrug these "coincidences" off and ignore the signs of cross global contact?
      > -c
      >
      > --- On Tue, 3/22/11, james m clark jr <jameyboy@...> wrote:
      >
      > From: james m clark jr <jameyboy@...>
      > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] The Prince of Wales in 1170-1190 Madoc/Madog
      > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Tuesday, March 22, 2011, 8:32 AM
      >
      > Before comming across carnavals theories of diffusion a simular story was found at Valdosta State Musuem in 2002 burried in the authors online book that contains over 6000 pages on a verity of topics besides transAtlantic theories which has been updated and I haven't had time to browse yet other than not recalling the term moon eyed people.
      >
      > http://www.valdostamuseum.org/hamsmith/EtowahMounds.html
      >
      >
      >
      > Regarding "Madoc" and a Cherokee Chief's [sorry I don't recall the Chief's name] statement that is said to be burried in the archives of the state of Georgia that I'd yet to have found evident, for these sources seem to be elsuive once again as if it's privliged only to some sacred order or society of control freeks although it was in Georgia Fort Hawkins was established as the main trading post for the Ohio for a spell.
      >
      > The Cherokee Chief that sopposedly gives an acount regarding the friends of the Cherokee, other wise known as the blue eyed people is said at the time was a heavy drinker who gives the account that seems to be widely spread among English and perhaps Scottish. Not only is it it the Mandan the Blue eyed people are also said to be desendants of the Yuchi also who had homes of plaster walls and floors at the former Yuchi Town which now is Uncle Sams Fort Benning Georgia. In 1776 the Federal Government even had a flag promoting Yuchi Town but ironically the Federal Government never reconized the Yuchi peoples as a nation.   
      >
      > Wales 1170 - 1190 AD - Prince Madog Ab Owain Gwynedd
      > Prince Madog sailed from Abergwili in Wales in 1170 with 10 ships and settled near Mobile, Alabama. He had returned a year earlier with his discovery and saw the journey as an escape from the constant battles between his 18 brothers and sisters. After some battles with the Cheyenne, they built forts resembling their Dolwyddelan Castle and integrated with a tribe called Mandans. They retained their dialect and built villages with streets and squares. They existed till 1837 when they were  wiped out by a smallpox epidemic introduced by traders.
      >
      > http://www.carnaval.com/columbus/diffusion.htm
      >
      > jmcjr
      >
      > tip:
      >
      > If you have Adobe Acrobat 9 you can save the link as a pdf an compare it with any other document and editoral notes and other editorsal tools used to edit a document in most cases will pop up if they have not been removed. It is quit revealing when seaching deveopmental phases.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
    • james m clark jr
      I may have to eventually do just that if no one has yet. Still considering Rick s suggestion also in AWS message #2203; Larry s Divine Vermont notes, and Mr.
      Message 2 of 23 , May 23, 2011
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        I may have to eventually do just that if no one has yet. Still considering Rick's suggestion also in AWS message #2203; Larry's Divine Vermont notes, and Mr. Conner's Iron Axe perhaps a connection to the desendants of the Welsh Silures.

        As much as I hate to admit it I'm almost glad I was wrong in suggesting that Madoc wasn't of royal maternal decent although there seems to be the allusion that appears to be a long list of Kings in his genology. If I'm understanding the following correctly

        http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/bim1/bim1078.htm

        Madoc may have been either the 76th or 77th in line in the preceeding pedigree according to the 1862 Barddas of lolo Morganwg Vol. I [pdf]page 112 in which notes that Queen Elizabeth I; who obtained rights later in Wales through inheritance or birthright not war although there had been a few classic soap oprea's between the boys.



        Acording to the text just removed from Ancient Waterways Society Yahoo! Group - Online Journals & Text folder - which is an English translation for the Welsh Mss Society now in public domain worldwide; perhaps then, a more inovatative folder should be within the AWS Online Journals and Text folder. After futher review this book may be well recieved at AWS from a verity of perspectives (suggested folder name would be helpful).

        The Coelbren of the Bards discription is somewhat hard to picture not having ever seen one of the devices myself (pdf p.101...). http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/bim1/bim1063.htm

        It is among the Bards that a maternal birthright seems to be consistant.

        http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/bim1/bim1064.htm

        The numeric or numeral symbol of the ancient Cymbi for 100 may also be of interest.

        http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/bim1/bim1059.htm

        And out on a limb the custom of the Inca women braiding daughters hair exactly 100 braids seems rather an odd tradition out of place but there again you find trade in unlikely places.

        http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/bim1/bim1075.htm

        be well,
        jamey


        Particularly what interests me as always are two schools of thought.

        Druids and Bards


        We have entered upon this subject at some length, because the supposed antagonism between Classical Druidism and British Bardism, is one of the principal grounds on which our literary sceptics found their denial of the genuineness of our traditions, and hence it becomes our strict duty to examine how far their position in this respect is really tenable. It is to be hoped that our comparative analysis will convince every unprejudiced person that, whilst the apparent discrepancy, which existed between the two systems.

        http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/bim1/bim1014.htm

         


        --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...> wrote:
        >
        > You should write to Gerard Baker, a Mandan descendant of the family
        > that took in Lewis and Clark for the Winter of 1803-04. Having house
        > guests for a weekend we can all relate to, but 40 explorers and their
        > big Newfoundland dog must have been a challenge. Their towns do
        > resemble medieval forts when you see them in the paintings of Karl
        > Bodmer and others. He was the painter that went along on Prince
        > Maximillian's expedition in the 1830's, with hired painters to
        > document the voyage, much like Cousteau did with film when he went up
        > the Mississippi in the Calypso.
        >
        > Gerard is featured in several of the Ken Burns documentaries, and the
        > book by Dayton Duncan who is one of the researchers for the National
        > Parks series. Mr. Baker was at Custer Battlefield as Supt. of the
        > Park , the re-creaton of the Lewis and Clark expedition, and most
        > recently as Supt. of Mt. Rushmore. Tough places to work as a first
        > nation person. You might get an address from National Park Service, as
        > he has just recently retired.
        > Ted
        > PS
        > The Mandans make jokes about the Arikara like Norwegians tell about
        > Swedes.
        >
        >
        > On Mar 23, 2011, at 12:35 PM, Prophecykeepers Foundation wrote:
        >
        > >
        > > You are welcome...
        > >
        > > and I forgot to say that John Sevier investigated the sandbar where
        > > Oconostota told him a battle against the Welsh occured, and found
        > > artifacts with dolphin inscription, indicating Welsh origins.
        > >
        > > I met a Mandan/Arkara fellow back in 1998, whose grandmother was one
        > > of the last two or three native speakers of their language, which
        > > she was helping to transcribe... and he said they all take for
        > > granted the Madoc story.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > From: james m clark jr jameyboy@...
        > > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
        > > Sent: Wed, March 23, 2011 10:40:54 AM
        > > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: The Prince of Wales in
        > > 1170-1190 Madoc/Madog
        > >
        > >
        > > Thanks for all info and the links
        > >
        > > I am almost 100% certain the heavy drinker accusation which may have
        > > been removed was once state at valdostamuseum.org or still could be
        > > there.
        > >
        > > jmcjr
        > >
        > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Prophecykeepers
        > > Foundation prophecykeepersdotcom@ wrote:
        > > >
        > > > The chief's name was Oconostota. He told Governor John Sevier of
        > > the fight on a
        > > > sandbar against Madoc's people. Sevier wrote a letter in 1810
        > > mentioning the
        > > > interview with Oconostota.
        > > >
        > > > see
        > > >
        > > > http://tinyurl.com/4oo6c33
        > > >
        > > > http://www.appalachianhistory.net/2010/05/they-were-a-people-called-welsh-and-they-had-crossed-the-great-water.html
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > http://ancientlosttreasures.yuku.com/topic/6604
        > > >
        > > > Oconostota inherited my 7th great grandfather Savanooka's position
        > > as heir to
        > > > the seat of the Cherokee Nation. I have never read that he was a
        > > "heavy
        > > > drinker"
        > > >
        > > > How the heck are the blue-eyed Mandan supposed to be the
        > > descendants of probably
        > > > the darkest skinned Indians in the southeast?
        > > >
        > > > As I recall, by the time the USA got around to making treaties,
        > > the Yuchi had
        > > > already been absorbed by the Cherokee.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > ________________________________
        > > > From: james m clark jr jameyboy@
        > > > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
        > > > Sent: Tue, March 22, 2011 8:32:16 AM
        > > > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] The Prince of Wales in
        > > 1170-1190
        > > > Madoc/Madog
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Before comming across carnavals theories of diffusion a simular
        > > story was found
        > > > at Valdosta State Musuem in 2002 burried in the authors online
        > > book that
        > > > contains over 6000 pages on a verity of topics besides
        > > transAtlantic theories
        > > > which has been updated and I haven't had time to browse yet other
        > > than not
        > > > recalling the term moon eyed people.
        > > >
        > > > http://www.valdostamuseum.org/hamsmith/EtowahMounds.html
        > > >
        > > > Regarding "Madoc" and a Cherokee Chief's [sorry I don't recall the
        > > Chief's name]
        > > > statement that is said to be burried in the archives of the state
        > > of Georgia
        > > > that I'd yet to have found evident, for these sources seem to be
        > > elsuive once
        > > > again as if it's privliged only to some sacred order or society of
        > > control
        > > > freeks although it was in Georgia Fort Hawkins was established as
        > > the main
        > > > trading post for the Ohio for a spell.
        > > >
        > > > The Cherokee Chief that sopposedly gives an acount regarding the
        > > friends of the
        > > > Cherokee, other wise known as the blue eyed people is said at the
        > > time was a
        > > > heavy drinker who gives the account that seems to be widely spread
        > > among English
        > > > and perhaps Scottish. Not only is it it the Mandan the Blue eyed
        > > people are also
        > > > said to be desendants of the Yuchi also who had homes of plaster
        > > walls and
        > > > floors at the former Yuchi Town which now is Uncle Sams Fort
        > > Benning Georgia. In
        > > > 1776 the Federal Government even had a flag promoting Yuchi Town
        > > but ironically
        > > > the Federal Government never reconized the Yuchi peoples as a
        > > nation.
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Wales 1170 - 1190 AD - Prince Madog Ab Owain Gwynedd
        > > > Prince Madog sailed from Abergwili in Wales in 1170 with 10 ships
        > > and settled
        > > > near Mobile, Alabama. He had returned a year earlier with his
        > > discovery and saw
        > > > the journey as an escape from the constant battles between his 18
        > > brothers and
        > > > sisters. After some battles with the Cheyenne, they built forts
        > > resembling their
        > > > Dolwyddelan Castle and integrated with a tribe called Mandans.
        > > They retained
        > > > their dialect and built villages with streets and squares. They
        > > existed till
        > > > 1837 when they were wiped out by a smallpox epidemic introduced by
        > > traders.
        > > >
        > > > http://www.carnaval.com/columbus/diffusion.htm
        > > >
        > > > jmcjr
        > > >
        > > > tip:
        > > >
        > > > If you have Adobe Acrobat 9 you can save the link as a pdf an
        > > compare it with
        > > > any other document and editoral notes and other editorsal tools
        > > used to edit a
        > > > document in most cases will pop up if they have not been removed.
        > > It is quit
        > > > revealing when seaching deveopmental phases.
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >

      • quarefremeruntgentes7@yahoo.com
        Hi, I noticed your reference to Karl Bodmer s documentaries, and am wondering whether he has any presence on the internet, or YouTube. Warm Regards, Jeff Lewin
        Message 3 of 23 , Apr 2, 2012
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          Hi, I noticed your reference to Karl Bodmer's documentaries, and am wondering whether he has any presence on the internet, or YouTube.

          Warm Regards,

          Jeff Lewin
          Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

          From: Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...>
          Sender: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 14:45:59 -0500
          To: <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>; Prophecykeepers Foundation<prophecykeepersdotcom@...>
          ReplyTo: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: The Prince of Wales in 1170-1190 Madoc/Madog

          You should write to Gerard Baker, a Mandan descendant of the family that took in Lewis and Clark for the Winter of 1803-04.  Having house guests for a weekend we can all relate to, but 40 explorers and their big Newfoundland dog must have been a challenge.  Their towns do resemble medieval forts when you see them in the paintings of Karl Bodmer and others.  He was the painter that went along on Prince Maximillian's expedition in the 1830's, with hired painters to document the voyage, much like Cousteau did with film when he went up the Mississippi in the Calypso.  

          Gerard is featured in several of the Ken Burns documentaries, and the book by Dayton Duncan who is one of the researchers for the National Parks series.   Mr. Baker was at Custer Battlefield as Supt. of the Park , the re-creaton of the Lewis and Clark expedition, and most recently as Supt. of Mt. Rushmore.   Tough places to work as a first nation person. You might get an address from National Park Service, as he has just recently retired.   
          Ted
          PS
          The Mandans make jokes about the Arikara like Norwegians tell about Swedes.   


          On Mar 23, 2011, at 12:35 PM, Prophecykeepers Foundation wrote:


          You are welcome...

          and I forgot to say that John Sevier investigated the sandbar where Oconostota told him a battle against the Welsh occured, and found artifacts with dolphin inscription, indicating Welsh origins.

          I met a Mandan/Arkara fellow back in 1998, whose grandmother was one of the last two or three native speakers of their language, which she was helping to transcribe... and he said they all take for granted the Madoc story.




          From: james m clark jr <jameyboy@...>
          To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wed, March 23, 2011 10:40:54 AM
          Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: The Prince of Wales in 1170-1190 Madoc/Madog

           

          Thanks for all info and the links

          I am almost 100% certain the heavy drinker accusation which may have been removed was once state at valdostamuseum.org or still could be there.

          jmcjr

          --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Prophecykeepers Foundation <prophecykeepersdotcom@...> wrote:
          >
          > The chief's name was Oconostota. He told Governor John Sevier of the fight on a 
          > sandbar against Madoc's people. Sevier wrote a letter in 1810 mentioning the 
          > interview with Oconostota.
          > 
          > see
          > 
          > http://tinyurl.com/4oo6c33
          > 
          > http://www.appalachianhistory.net/2010/05/they-were-a-people-called-welsh-and-they-had-crossed-the-great-water.html
          > 
          > 
          > http://ancientlosttreasures.yuku.com/topic/6604
          > 
          > Oconostota inherited my 7th great grandfather Savanooka's position as heir to 
          > the seat of the Cherokee Nation. I have never read that he was a "heavy 
          > drinker"
          > 
          > How the heck are the blue-eyed Mandan supposed to be the descendants of probably 
          > the darkest skinned Indians in the southeast?
          > 
          > As I recall, by the time the USA got around to making treaties, the Yuchi had 
          > already been absorbed by the Cherokee.
          > 
          > 
          > 
          > 
          > 
          > 
          > 
          > ________________________________
          > From: james m clark jr <jameyboy@...>
          > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Tue, March 22, 2011 8:32:16 AM
          > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] The Prince of Wales in 1170-1190 
          > Madoc/Madog
          > 
          > 
          > Before comming across carnavals theories of diffusion a simular story was found 
          > at Valdosta State Musuem in 2002 burried in the authors online book that 
          > contains over 6000 pages on a verity of topics besides transAtlantic theories 
          > which has been updated and I haven't had time to browse yet other than not 
          > recalling the term moon eyed people.
          > 
          > http://www.valdostamuseum.org/hamsmith/EtowahMounds.html
          > 
          > Regarding "Madoc" and a Cherokee Chief's [sorry I don't recall the Chief's name] 
          > statement that is said to be burried in the archives of the state of Georgia 
          > that I'd yet to have found evident, for these sources seem to be elsuive once 
          > again as if it's privliged only to some sacred order or society of control 
          > freeks although it was in Georgia Fort Hawkins was established as the main 
          > trading post for the Ohio for a spell.
          > 
          > The Cherokee Chief that sopposedly gives an acount regarding the friends of the 
          > Cherokee, other wise known as the blue eyed people is said at the time was a 
          > heavy drinker who gives the account that seems to be widely spread among English 
          > and perhaps Scottish. Not only is it it the Mandan the Blue eyed people are also 
          > said to be desendants of the Yuchi also who had homes of plaster walls and 
          > floors at the former Yuchi Town which now is Uncle Sams Fort Benning Georgia. In 
          > 1776 the Federal Government even had a flag promoting Yuchi Town but ironically 
          > the Federal Government never reconized the Yuchi peoples as a nation. 
          > 
          > 
          > Wales 1170 - 1190 AD - Prince Madog Ab Owain Gwynedd
          > Prince Madog sailed from Abergwili in Wales in 1170 with 10 ships and settled 
          > near Mobile, Alabama. He had returned a year earlier with his discovery and saw 
          > the journey as an escape from the constant battles between his 18 brothers and 
          > sisters. After some battles with the Cheyenne, they built forts resembling their 
          > Dolwyddelan Castle and integrated with a tribe called Mandans. They retained 
          > their dialect and built villages with streets and squares. They existed till 
          > 1837 when they were wiped out by a smallpox epidemic introduced by traders.
          > 
          > http://www.carnaval.com/columbus/diffusion.htm
          > 
          > jmcjr
          > 
          > tip:
          > 
          > If you have Adobe Acrobat 9 you can save the link as a pdf an compare it with 
          > any other document and editoral notes and other editorsal tools used to edit a 
          > document in most cases will pop up if they have not been removed. It is quit 
          > revealing when seaching deveopmental phases.
          >




        • Ted Sojka
          Dear Jeff, The largest collection of Karl Bodmer s work is in the Joslyn Art Museum in Omaha. A book you might get at your library is called, People of the
          Message 4 of 23 , Apr 2, 2012
          • 0 Attachment
            Dear Jeff,

            The largest collection of Karl Bodmer's work is in the Joslyn Art Museum in Omaha.   

            A book you might get at your library is called, "People of the First Man", that contains a good record of the journey.

            It was a Cousteau style expedition in the early 1800's up the Missouri River where Bodmer served as the artist to record the wildlife, the scenery, and the people he met. No cameras back then, and if you see the watercolors he did of the white cliffs of the Missouri or the Great Falls, and the "castle" of white rock along the banks of the river.  He did a scene of countless bison crossing the river and caused the steamboat they rode to stop for fear of clogging its paddle wheel.   it is a time machine to get back to that era.  The portraits are particularly wonderful.  They are more than pictures of the people, and a record of the change that was overcoming their societies.  Bull boats made from bison hides at Fort Mandan is a great picture to view.  When one considers it was not long after the Lewis and Clark expedition, there is a lot of change in evidence.  I visited the late sculpture of the Crazy Horse memorial and he had a great collection of portraits from the previous century, one that comes to mind is young woman named,"Mint".  

            The Steven Ambrose books on the Missouri tell of many things that went under water when the great dams were built on this river in Montana and North and South Dakotas.  

            Bodmer's works were stored in a castle in Germany, along with buffalo robes with Winter Counts painted on them,and a great variety of clothing he traded for on the expedition.  At the end of the Second World War, the residents and the heirs to Prince Maximilian, who financed the expedition thought they should be given back to America.  It is quite a collection.  A time capsule of sorts.  The castle had been used by the SS during the war but the artifacts were not harmed.  

            I once met Gerard Baker who was Superintendent of the Custer Battlefield, Mount Rushmore, and the 200th Anniversary of the Lewis and Clark expedition, said he owed a debt to the painter and the art teachers who introduced him to relatives from long ago.  He is the highest ranking first nation person in the National Parks Service, and a good friend of Dayton Duncan and Ken Burns.   One of his relatives hosted Lewis and Clark in the Mandan village in which they wintered over the 1304-05 years.  The Hidatsa and Mandan both built towns and may have been the remnants of what are called the Oneota, according to some people.  That word in Sioux means the town builders or those that make the towns, and I think I heard that from Allison Hedge Coke.  She is  a first nation educator and poet and has written of this time from am area that was called Blood Run, on the Iowa and South Dakota border.
            I introduced Mr. Baker to a descendant of the two Ordways who were on the Lewis and Clark expedition, one of them was elected to the post of sergeant by the men, when Sergeant Floyd died of what is thought appendicitis near Sioux City, Iowa.  

            Ted Sojka
            Native Earthworks Preservation-Iowa

            On Apr 2, 2012, at 8:33 PM, quarefremeruntgentes7@... wrote:

             

            Hi, I noticed your reference to Karl Bodmer's documentaries, and am wondering whether he has any presence on the internet, or YouTube.

            Warm Regards,

            Jeff Lewin

            Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

            From: Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...>
            Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 14:45:59 -0500
            Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: The Prince of Wales in 1170-1190 Madoc/Madog

            You should write to Gerard Baker, a Mandan descendant of the family that took in Lewis and Clark for the Winter of 1803-04.  Having house guests for a weekend we can all relate to, but 40 explorers and their big Newfoundland dog must have been a challenge.  Their towns do resemble medieval forts when you see them in the paintings of Karl Bodmer and others.  He was the painter that went along on Prince Maximillian's expedition in the 1830's, with hired painters to document the voyage, much like Cousteau did with film when he went up the Mississippi in the Calypso.  

            Gerard is featured in several of the Ken Burns documentaries, and the book by Dayton Duncan who is one of the researchers for the National Parks series.   Mr. Baker was at Custer Battlefield as Supt. of the Park , the re-creaton of the Lewis and Clark expedition, and most recently as Supt. of Mt. Rushmore.   Tough places to work as a first nation person. You might get an address from National Park Service, as he has just recently retired.   
            Ted
            PS
            The Mandans make jokes about the Arikara like Norwegians tell about Swedes.   


            On Mar 23, 2011, at 12:35 PM, Prophecykeepers Foundation wrote:


            You are welcome...

            and I forgot to say that John Sevier investigated the sandbar where Oconostota told him a battle against the Welsh occured, and found artifacts with dolphin inscription, indicating Welsh origins.

            I met a Mandan/Arkara fellow back in 1998, whose grandmother was one of the last two or three native speakers of their language, which she was helping to transcribe... and he said they all take for granted the Madoc story.




            From: james m clark jr <jameyboy@...>
            To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wed, March 23, 2011 10:40:54 AM
            Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: The Prince of Wales in 1170-1190 Madoc/Madog

             

            Thanks for all info and the links

            I am almost 100% certain the heavy drinker accusation which may have been removed was once state at valdostamuseum.org or still could be there.

            jmcjr

            --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Prophecykeepers Foundation <prophecykeepersdotcom@...> wrote:
            >
            > The chief's name was Oconostota. He told Governor John Sevier of the fight on a 
            > sandbar against Madoc's people. Sevier wrote a letter in 1810 mentioning the 
            > interview with Oconostota.
            > 
            > see
            > 
            > http://tinyurl.com/4oo6c33
            > 
            > http://www.appalachianhistory.net/2010/05/they-were-a-people-called-welsh-and-they-had-crossed-the-great-water.html
            > 
            > 
            > http://ancientlosttreasures.yuku.com/topic/6604
            > 
            > Oconostota inherited my 7th great grandfather Savanooka's position as heir to 
            > the seat of the Cherokee Nation. I have never read that he was a "heavy 
            > drinker"
            > 
            > How the heck are the blue-eyed Mandan supposed to be the descendants of probably 
            > the darkest skinned Indians in the southeast?
            > 
            > As I recall, by the time the USA got around to making treaties, the Yuchi had 
            > already been absorbed by the Cherokee.
            > 
            > 
            > 
            > 
            > 
            > 
            > 
            > ________________________________
            > From: james m clark jr <jameyboy@...>
            > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Tue, March 22, 2011 8:32:16 AM
            > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] The Prince of Wales in 1170-1190 
            > Madoc/Madog
            > 
            > 
            > Before comming across carnavals theories of diffusion a simular story was found 
            > at Valdosta State Musuem in 2002 burried in the authors online book that 
            > contains over 6000 pages on a verity of topics besides transAtlantic theories 
            > which has been updated and I haven't had time to browse yet other than not 
            > recalling the term moon eyed people.
            > 
            > http://www.valdostamuseum.org/hamsmith/EtowahMounds.html
            > 
            > Regarding "Madoc" and a Cherokee Chief's [sorry I don't recall the Chief's name] 
            > statement that is said to be burried in the archives of the state of Georgia 
            > that I'd yet to have found evident, for these sources seem to be elsuive once 
            > again as if it's privliged only to some sacred order or society of control 
            > freeks although it was in Georgia Fort Hawkins was established as the main 
            > trading post for the Ohio for a spell.
            > 
            > The Cherokee Chief that sopposedly gives an acount regarding the friends of the 
            > Cherokee, other wise known as the blue eyed people is said at the time was a 
            > heavy drinker who gives the account that seems to be widely spread among English 
            > and perhaps Scottish. Not only is it it the Mandan the Blue eyed people are also 
            > said to be desendants of the Yuchi also who had homes of plaster walls and 
            > floors at the former Yuchi Town which now is Uncle Sams Fort Benning Georgia. In 
            > 1776 the Federal Government even had a flag promoting Yuchi Town but ironically 
            > the Federal Government never reconized the Yuchi peoples as a nation. 
            > 
            > 
            > Wales 1170 - 1190 AD - Prince Madog Ab Owain Gwynedd
            > Prince Madog sailed from Abergwili in Wales in 1170 with 10 ships and settled 
            > near Mobile, Alabama. He had returned a year earlier with his discovery and saw 
            > the journey as an escape from the constant battles between his 18 brothers and 
            > sisters. After some battles with the Cheyenne, they built forts resembling their 
            > Dolwyddelan Castle and integrated with a tribe called Mandans. They retained 
            > their dialect and built villages with streets and squares. They existed till 
            > 1837 when they were wiped out by a smallpox epidemic introduced by traders.
            > 
            > http://www.carnaval.com/columbus/diffusion.htm
            > 
            > jmcjr
            > 
            > tip:
            > 
            > If you have Adobe Acrobat 9 you can save the link as a pdf an compare it with 
            > any other document and editoral notes and other editorsal tools used to edit a 
            > document in most cases will pop up if they have not been removed. It is quit 
            > revealing when seaching deveopmental phases.
            >






          • james m clark jr
            I couldn t believe it but this title is actually listed in the Georgia Pines Library System Catlaog. But there is no statement as to which or if any branch
            Message 5 of 23 , Apr 3, 2012
            • 0 Attachment
              I couldn't believe it but this title is actually listed in the Georgia Pines Library System Catlaog. But there is no statement as to which or if any branch currently has it or if it is merely a request.
              Perhaps it is avalable upon request from a University loaners program such as Mercery University. They have donated many books from Jstor in times past but hardback books are a liitle more valuable than they use to be regarding collectables or new... assuming that if this is so, it's perhaps the best news I can imagine in recent years.

              Thanks guys,
              jamey

              --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...> wrote:
              >
              > Dear Jeff,
              >
              > The largest collection of Karl Bodmer's work is in the Joslyn Art
              > Museum in Omaha.
              >
              > A book you might get at your library is called, "People of the First
              > Man", that contains a good record of the journey.
              >
              > It was a Cousteau style expedition in the early 1800's up the Missouri
              > River where Bodmer served as the artist to record the wildlife, the
              > scenery, and the people he met. No cameras back then, and if you see
              > the watercolors he did of the white cliffs of the Missouri or the
              > Great Falls, and the "castle" of white rock along the banks of the
              > river. He did a scene of countless bison crossing the river and
              > caused the steamboat they rode to stop for fear of clogging its paddle
              > wheel. it is a time machine to get back to that era. The portraits
              > are particularly wonderful. They are more than pictures of the
              > people, and a record of the change that was overcoming their
              > societies. Bull boats made from bison hides at Fort Mandan is a great
              > picture to view. When one considers it was not long after the Lewis
              > and Clark expedition, there is a lot of change in evidence. I visited
              > the late sculpture of the Crazy Horse memorial and he had a great
              > collection of portraits from the previous century, one that comes to
              > mind is young woman named,"Mint".
              >
              > The Steven Ambrose books on the Missouri tell of many things that went
              > under water when the great dams were built on this river in Montana
              > and North and South Dakotas.
              >
              > Bodmer's works were stored in a castle in Germany, along with buffalo
              > robes with Winter Counts painted on them,and a great variety of
              > clothing he traded for on the expedition. At the end of the Second
              > World War, the residents and the heirs to Prince Maximilian, who
              > financed the expedition thought they should be given back to America.
              > It is quite a collection. A time capsule of sorts. The castle had
              > been used by the SS during the war but the artifacts were not harmed.
              >
              > I once met Gerard Baker who was Superintendent of the Custer
              > Battlefield, Mount Rushmore, and the 200th Anniversary of the Lewis
              > and Clark expedition, said he owed a debt to the painter and the art
              > teachers who introduced him to relatives from long ago. He is the
              > highest ranking first nation person in the National Parks Service, and
              > a good friend of Dayton Duncan and Ken Burns. One of his relatives
              > hosted Lewis and Clark in the Mandan village in which they wintered
              > over the 1304-05 years. The Hidatsa and Mandan both built towns and
              > may have been the remnants of what are called the Oneota, according to
              > some people. That word in Sioux means the town builders or those that
              > make the towns, and I think I heard that from Allison Hedge Coke. She
              > is a first nation educator and poet and has written of this time from
              > am area that was called Blood Run, on the Iowa and South Dakota border.
              > I introduced Mr. Baker to a descendant of the two Ordways who were on
              > the Lewis and Clark expedition, one of them was elected to the post of
              > sergeant by the men, when Sergeant Floyd died of what is thought
              > appendicitis near Sioux City, Iowa.
              >
              > Ted Sojka
              > Native Earthworks Preservation-Iowa
              >
              > On Apr 2, 2012, at 8:33 PM, quarefremeruntgentes7@... wrote:
              >
              > > Hi, I noticed your reference to Karl Bodmer's documentaries, and am
              > > wondering whether he has any presence on the internet, or YouTube.
              > >
              > > Warm Regards,
              > >
              > > Jeff Lewin
              > >
              > > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
              > > From: Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...>
              > > Sender: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
              > > Date: Wed, 23 Mar 2011 14:45:59 -0500
              > > To: <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>; Prophecykeepers
              > > Foundation<prophecykeepersdotcom@...>
              > > ReplyTo: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
              > > Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: The Prince of Wales in
              > > 1170-1190 Madoc/Madog
              > >
              > > You should write to Gerard Baker, a Mandan descendant of the family
              > > that took in Lewis and Clark for the Winter of 1803-04. Having
              > > house guests for a weekend we can all relate to, but 40 explorers
              > > and their big Newfoundland dog must have been a challenge. Their
              > > towns do resemble medieval forts when you see them in the paintings
              > > of Karl Bodmer and others. He was the painter that went along on
              > > Prince Maximillian's expedition in the 1830's, with hired painters
              > > to document the voyage, much like Cousteau did with film when he
              > > went up the Mississippi in the Calypso.
              > >
              > > Gerard is featured in several of the Ken Burns documentaries, and
              > > the book by Dayton Duncan who is one of the researchers for the
              > > National Parks series. Mr. Baker was at Custer Battlefield as
              > > Supt. of the Park , the re-creaton of the Lewis and Clark
              > > expedition, and most recently as Supt. of Mt. Rushmore. Tough
              > > places to work as a first nation person. You might get an address
              > > from National Park Service, as he has just recently retired.
              > > Ted
              > > PS
              > > The Mandans make jokes about the Arikara like Norwegians tell about
              > > Swedes.
              > >
              > >
              > > On Mar 23, 2011, at 12:35 PM, Prophecykeepers Foundation wrote:
              > >
              > >>
              > >> You are welcome...
              > >>
              > >> and I forgot to say that John Sevier investigated the sandbar where
              > >> Oconostota told him a battle against the Welsh occured, and found
              > >> artifacts with dolphin inscription, indicating Welsh origins.
              > >>
              > >> I met a Mandan/Arkara fellow back in 1998, whose grandmother was
              > >> one of the last two or three native speakers of their language,
              > >> which she was helping to transcribe... and he said they all take
              > >> for granted the Madoc story.
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> From: james m clark jr <jameyboy@...>
              > >> To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
              > >> Sent: Wed, March 23, 2011 10:40:54 AM
              > >> Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: The Prince of Wales in
              > >> 1170-1190 Madoc/Madog
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> Thanks for all info and the links
              > >>
              > >> I am almost 100% certain the heavy drinker accusation which may
              > >> have been removed was once state at valdostamuseum.org or still
              > >> could be there.
              > >>
              > >> jmcjr
              > >>
              > >> --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Prophecykeepers
              > >> Foundation <prophecykeepersdotcom@> wrote:
              > >> >
              > >> > The chief's name was Oconostota. He told Governor John Sevier of
              > >> the fight on a
              > >> > sandbar against Madoc's people. Sevier wrote a letter in 1810
              > >> mentioning the
              > >> > interview with Oconostota.
              > >> >
              > >> > see
              > >> >
              > >> > http://tinyurl.com/4oo6c33
              > >> >
              > >> > http://www.appalachianhistory.net/2010/05/they-were-a-people-called-welsh-and-they-had-crossed-the-great-water.html
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> > http://ancientlosttreasures.yuku.com/topic/6604
              > >> >
              > >> > Oconostota inherited my 7th great grandfather Savanooka's
              > >> position as heir to
              > >> > the seat of the Cherokee Nation. I have never read that he was a
              > >> "heavy
              > >> > drinker"
              > >> >
              > >> > How the heck are the blue-eyed Mandan supposed to be the
              > >> descendants of probably
              > >> > the darkest skinned Indians in the southeast?
              > >> >
              > >> > As I recall, by the time the USA got around to making treaties,
              > >> the Yuchi had
              > >> > already been absorbed by the Cherokee.
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> > ________________________________
              > >> > From: james m clark jr <jameyboy@>
              > >> > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
              > >> > Sent: Tue, March 22, 2011 8:32:16 AM
              > >> > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] The Prince of Wales in
              > >> 1170-1190
              > >> > Madoc/Madog
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> > Before comming across carnavals theories of diffusion a simular
              > >> story was found
              > >> > at Valdosta State Musuem in 2002 burried in the authors online
              > >> book that
              > >> > contains over 6000 pages on a verity of topics besides
              > >> transAtlantic theories
              > >> > which has been updated and I haven't had time to browse yet other
              > >> than not
              > >> > recalling the term moon eyed people.
              > >> >
              > >> > http://www.valdostamuseum.org/hamsmith/EtowahMounds.html
              > >> >
              > >> > Regarding "Madoc" and a Cherokee Chief's [sorry I don't recall
              > >> the Chief's name]
              > >> > statement that is said to be burried in the archives of the state
              > >> of Georgia
              > >> > that I'd yet to have found evident, for these sources seem to be
              > >> elsuive once
              > >> > again as if it's privliged only to some sacred order or society
              > >> of control
              > >> > freeks although it was in Georgia Fort Hawkins was established as
              > >> the main
              > >> > trading post for the Ohio for a spell.
              > >> >
              > >> > The Cherokee Chief that sopposedly gives an acount regarding the
              > >> friends of the
              > >> > Cherokee, other wise known as the blue eyed people is said at the
              > >> time was a
              > >> > heavy drinker who gives the account that seems to be widely
              > >> spread among English
              > >> > and perhaps Scottish. Not only is it it the Mandan the Blue eyed
              > >> people are also
              > >> > said to be desendants of the Yuchi also who had homes of plaster
              > >> walls and
              > >> > floors at the former Yuchi Town which now is Uncle Sams Fort
              > >> Benning Georgia. In
              > >> > 1776 the Federal Government even had a flag promoting Yuchi Town
              > >> but ironically
              > >> > the Federal Government never reconized the Yuchi peoples as a
              > >> nation.
              > >> >
              > >> >
              > >> > Wales 1170 - 1190 AD - Prince Madog Ab Owain Gwynedd
              > >> > Prince Madog sailed from Abergwili in Wales in 1170 with 10 ships
              > >> and settled
              > >> > near Mobile, Alabama. He had returned a year earlier with his
              > >> discovery and saw
              > >> > the journey as an escape from the constant battles between his 18
              > >> brothers and
              > >> > sisters. After some battles with the Cheyenne, they built forts
              > >> resembling their
              > >> > Dolwyddelan Castle and integrated with a tribe called Mandans.
              > >> They retained
              > >> > their dialect and built villages with streets and squares. They
              > >> existed till
              > >> > 1837 when they were wiped out by a smallpox epidemic introduced
              > >> by traders.
              > >> >
              > >> > http://www.carnaval.com/columbus/diffusion.htm
              > >> >
              > >> > jmcjr
              > >> >
              > >> > tip:
              > >> >
              > >> > If you have Adobe Acrobat 9 you can save the link as a pdf an
              > >> compare it with
              > >> > any other document and editoral notes and other editorsal tools
              > >> used to edit a
              > >> > document in most cases will pop up if they have not been removed.
              > >> It is quit
              > >> > revealing when seaching deveopmental phases.
              > >> >
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
            • quarefremeruntgentes7@yahoo.com
              Jeff here, following up on an old thread. While I disagree with various points raised by Alan Wilson and Baird Blackett, as a member of the Welsh diaspora, I
              Message 6 of 23 , Apr 7, 2012
              • 0 Attachment
                Jeff here, following up on an old thread.

                While I disagree with various points raised by Alan Wilson and Baird Blackett, as a member of the Welsh diaspora, I still have a natural interest in many aspects of their work.

                Disagreements aside, I remember multiple occasions, beginning in late 2005, when I followed a friend's suggestion to research new studies of Arthurian history. My friend specifically referred to the discovery of a Tomb of King Arthur. After repeated attempts on my part, I do not remember any internet search engines ever connecting me to any site relating to Alan Wilson's and Baram Blackett's studies.

                It was only this month that I finally followed this 2011 thread to some YouTube videos mentioning Prince Madoc, and then followed a link to Wilson's and Blackett's site.

                I am not sure why these sites were so difficult to track down, although I suppose my query terms might have been too vague.

                Jeff Lewin


                Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T

                -----Original Message-----
                From: "Rick O" <ozman@...>
                Sender: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 16:29:55
                To: <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                Reply-To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: The Prince of Wales in 1170-1190 Madoc/Madog

                Jamie,

                For a little more in depth study of Prince Madoc, look up the works of
                Alan Wilson and Baram Blackett. Madoc was an oft used name in ancient
                Wales and the Kumric language is full of pitfalls of nuance. There seems
                to be a disparity also between "Historical" Madoc/Madog and the dates
                assigned by medieval chroniclers. That disparity is about 600 years.
                According to Wilson's interpretation of the Kumric, Madog made 2 round
                trip voyages. About two years ago, a shipwreck was discovered /
                investigated off the south shore of Wales that contained 29 copper and 3
                tin "bun" ingots, a really good ratio to make bronze. To me, that is
                clear evidence that Wales was likely a trans-shipment point for both
                Cornish tin and Michigan copper.

                When we get caught up in dates and names and claims of one nation or
                leader over another, we tend to lose perspective of the "why". Trade and
                commerce was almost always the reason. Occasionally, a better life was
                the reason. According to Wilson and Blackett, that was the case in 565.

                Oz



                --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "james m clark jr"
                <jameyboy@...> wrote:
                >
                > Before comming across carnavals theories of diffusion a simular story
                was found at Valdosta State Musuem in 2002 burried in the authors online
                book that contains over 6000 pages on a verity of topics besides
                transAtlantic theories which has been updated and I haven't had time to
                browse yet other than not recalling the term moon eyed people.
                >
                > http://www.valdostamuseum.org/hamsmith/EtowahMounds.html
                >
                >
                >
                > Regarding "Madoc" and a Cherokee Chief's [sorry I don't recall the
                Chief's name] statement that is said to be burried in the archives of
                the state of Georgia that I'd yet to have found evident, for these
                sources seem to be elsuive once again as if it's privliged only to some
                sacred order or society of control freeks although it was in Georgia
                Fort Hawkins was established as the main trading post for the Ohio for a
                spell.
                >
                > The Cherokee Chief that sopposedly gives an acount regarding the
                friends of the Cherokee, other wise known as the blue eyed people is
                said at the time was a heavy drinker who gives the account that seems to
                be widely spread among English and perhaps Scottish. Not only is it it
                the Mandan the Blue eyed people are also said to be desendants of the
                Yuchi also who had homes of plaster walls and floors at the former Yuchi
                Town which now is Uncle Sams Fort Benning Georgia. In 1776 the Federal
                Government even had a flag promoting Yuchi Town but ironically the
                Federal Government never reconized the Yuchi peoples as a nation.
                >
                > Wales 1170 - 1190 AD - Prince Madog Ab Owain Gwynedd
                > Prince Madog sailed from Abergwili in Wales in 1170 with 10 ships and
                settled near Mobile, Alabama. He had returned a year earlier with his
                discovery and saw the journey as an escape from the constant battles
                between his 18 brothers and sisters. After some battles with the
                Cheyenne, they built forts resembling their Dolwyddelan Castle and
                integrated with a tribe called Mandans. They retained their dialect and
                built villages with streets and squares. They existed till 1837 when
                they were wiped out by a smallpox epidemic introduced by traders.
                >
                > http://www.carnaval.com/columbus/diffusion.htm
                >
                > jmcjr
                >
                > tip:
                >
                > If you have Adobe Acrobat 9 you can save the link as a pdf an compare
                it with any other document and editoral notes and other editorsal tools
                used to edit a document in most cases will pop up if they have not been
                removed. It is quit revealing when seaching deveopmental phases.
                >




                ------------------------------------

                Yahoo! Groups Links
              • james m clark jr
                Ixquick s search engine rates the following link at 3 stars for most visited site. http://kingarthurslegacy.com/ Perhaps it is a good time to bring this up
                Message 7 of 23 , Apr 7, 2012
                • 0 Attachment
                  Ixquick's search engine rates the following link at 3 stars for most visited site.

                  http://kingarthurslegacy.com/

                  Perhaps it is a good time to bring this up again, I have yet found a a maternal link to this so called prince. There is a Madoc that was an heir much later who could have made such a claim as a claimant, although I am not even aware that he ever did in all his living days.

                  I can only assume that this is a modern projection for I have yet seen an anglo saxon chat that even includes a Madoc or Madog in it.
                  Perhaps one of the latter day Princes will include maybe one spoken of in the long list of heirs uttered... But even if the record exists online it wouldn't seem to include a non apparent trans-Atlantic Prince or even an heir... Perhaps this is merely a trans-Atlantic title only possible in a land not of their own but welcome nevertheless as a claimant which would have granted passage and apparently a sense of settlement.

                  ----------------------
                  privite Yahoo! group:

                  Aug.9, 2011

                  Jamey,
                  I'm not sure what you've got here. Did Oconostota make some statement about Moon-eyed people and Madoc? This pedigree link you listed was for Madoc (Madog ab Howel Velyn, son of Howel Velyn) born about 1206 and lived in the south end of Wales in Glamorgan. Madoc (Madog ab Owain Gwynedd, son of Owain Gwynedd) was the one who supposedly fled to North America, lived in 1170 in northeast Wales in Gwynedd. Granted, there is only about 130 miles difference between those locales. Madoc may have been a very common first name in those centuries in Wales. So the time, the locale, and the parentage don't look like a proper connection between the Madog ab Howel Velyn and Madog ab Owain Gwynedd.
                  Thanks for the post anyway, as it would be interesting to see what Oconostota said about Moon-eyed people.
                  Paul ...
                  -----------------------

                  be well,
                  jamey



                  --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, quarefremeruntgentes7@... wrote:
                  >
                  > Jeff here, following up on an old thread.
                  >
                  > While I disagree with various points raised by Alan Wilson and Baird Blackett, as a member of the Welsh diaspora, I still have a natural interest in many aspects of their work.
                  >
                  > Disagreements aside, I remember multiple occasions, beginning in late 2005, when I followed a friend's suggestion to research new studies of Arthurian history. My friend specifically referred to the discovery of a Tomb of King Arthur. After repeated attempts on my part, I do not remember any internet search engines ever connecting me to any site relating to Alan Wilson's and Baram Blackett's studies.
                  >
                  > It was only this month that I finally followed this 2011 thread to some YouTube videos mentioning Prince Madoc, and then followed a link to Wilson's and Blackett's site.
                  >
                  > I am not sure why these sites were so difficult to track down, although I suppose my query terms might have been too vague.
                  >
                  > Jeff Lewin
                  >
                  >
                  > Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: "Rick O" <ozman@...>
                  > Sender: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Tue, 22 Mar 2011 16:29:55
                  > To: <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Reply-To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: The Prince of Wales in 1170-1190 Madoc/Madog
                  >
                  > Jamie,
                  >
                  > For a little more in depth study of Prince Madoc, look up the works of
                  > Alan Wilson and Baram Blackett. Madoc was an oft used name in ancient
                  > Wales and the Kumric language is full of pitfalls of nuance. There seems
                  > to be a disparity also between "Historical" Madoc/Madog and the dates
                  > assigned by medieval chroniclers. That disparity is about 600 years.
                  > According to Wilson's interpretation of the Kumric, Madog made 2 round
                  > trip voyages. About two years ago, a shipwreck was discovered /
                  > investigated off the south shore of Wales that contained 29 copper and 3
                  > tin "bun" ingots, a really good ratio to make bronze. To me, that is
                  > clear evidence that Wales was likely a trans-shipment point for both
                  > Cornish tin and Michigan copper.
                  >
                  > When we get caught up in dates and names and claims of one nation or
                  > leader over another, we tend to lose perspective of the "why". Trade and
                  > commerce was almost always the reason. Occasionally, a better life was
                  > the reason. According to Wilson and Blackett, that was the case in 565.
                  >
                  > Oz
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "james m clark jr"
                  > <jameyboy@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Before comming across carnavals theories of diffusion a simular story
                  > was found at Valdosta State Musuem in 2002 burried in the authors online
                  > book that contains over 6000 pages on a verity of topics besides
                  > transAtlantic theories which has been updated and I haven't had time to
                  > browse yet other than not recalling the term moon eyed people.
                  > >
                  > > http://www.valdostamuseum.org/hamsmith/EtowahMounds.html
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > Regarding "Madoc" and a Cherokee Chief's [sorry I don't recall the
                  > Chief's name] statement that is said to be burried in the archives of
                  > the state of Georgia that I'd yet to have found evident, for these
                  > sources seem to be elsuive once again as if it's privliged only to some
                  > sacred order or society of control freeks although it was in Georgia
                  > Fort Hawkins was established as the main trading post for the Ohio for a
                  > spell.
                  > >
                  > > The Cherokee Chief that sopposedly gives an acount regarding the
                  > friends of the Cherokee, other wise known as the blue eyed people is
                  > said at the time was a heavy drinker who gives the account that seems to
                  > be widely spread among English and perhaps Scottish. Not only is it it
                  > the Mandan the Blue eyed people are also said to be desendants of the
                  > Yuchi also who had homes of plaster walls and floors at the former Yuchi
                  > Town which now is Uncle Sams Fort Benning Georgia. In 1776 the Federal
                  > Government even had a flag promoting Yuchi Town but ironically the
                  > Federal Government never reconized the Yuchi peoples as a nation.
                  > >
                  > > Wales 1170 - 1190 AD - Prince Madog Ab Owain Gwynedd
                  > > Prince Madog sailed from Abergwili in Wales in 1170 with 10 ships and
                  > settled near Mobile, Alabama. He had returned a year earlier with his
                  > discovery and saw the journey as an escape from the constant battles
                  > between his 18 brothers and sisters. After some battles with the
                  > Cheyenne, they built forts resembling their Dolwyddelan Castle and
                  > integrated with a tribe called Mandans. They retained their dialect and
                  > built villages with streets and squares. They existed till 1837 when
                  > they were wiped out by a smallpox epidemic introduced by traders.
                  > >
                  > > http://www.carnaval.com/columbus/diffusion.htm
                  > >
                  > > jmcjr
                  > >
                  > > tip:
                  > >
                  > > If you have Adobe Acrobat 9 you can save the link as a pdf an compare
                  > it with any other document and editoral notes and other editorsal tools
                  > used to edit a document in most cases will pop up if they have not been
                  > removed. It is quit revealing when seaching deveopmental phases.
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
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