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Re: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Mount Pisgah Stone Carvings...

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  • wayne trickle
       Mr. Kirks claims have no tangible evidence to back them up .They are as much conjecture as anything else. At  least J. Huston  McCulloch ,wrongly called
    Message 1 of 10 , Mar 20, 2011
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         Mr. Kirks claims have no tangible evidence to back them up .They are as much conjecture as anything else. At  least J. Huston  McCulloch ,wrongly called Justin McCulloch in Mr. Kirk's article ,had some science behind his claims ,such as carbon dating of artifacts found in the mounds,as well as studies on the metallurgy of the copper that was found.
          Being born and raised in the area, the montage of Republican/Democrat back and forth does indeed still exist today and does carry certain social intricacies.That said,  there are absolutely no known sources to back up the assumptions of Mr. Kirk, which makes his whole argument  at best... gossip. 
         Crystal Trickle 

      --- On Sun, 3/20/11, james m clark jr <jameyboy@...> wrote:

      From: james m clark jr <jameyboy@...>
      Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Mount Pisgah Stone Carvings...
      To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Sunday, March 20, 2011, 7:20 AM

       
      Aah! Thanks for the links Vinny.

      The Bat Creek Stone
      By Lowell Kirk
      http://www.telliquah.com/Batcreek.htm

      source
      The Tellico Plains Mountain Press
      http://www.telliquah.com/default.htm

      History Prof./Ass. Hist. prof. Lowell Kirk was a teacher at Hiwassee College in Tennessee not an 8th grade history teacher as I falsely stated I assume. I have been unable to recover a given account of the articles publication date which I've read only once between 2001-2005.

      Some of the same sources are refered to within Vince's Correspondent emails regarding the Bat Creek Stone as a main source rather than neologism.

      jmcjr

      --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "james m clark jr" <jameyboy@...> wrote:
      >
      > Regarding the Bat Creek Stone and theories surrounding it a local history teacher who unknowingly had relocated to the area to teach 8th grade history about 11 years ago presents some interesting documentation regarding the men involved. Regardless of the history teachers opinion forgery was written all over the Bat Creek Stone also.
      >
      > As far as I know the Bat Creek Stone is still the property of the Smithsonian institution I assume, if so this could be one example of the disadvantages of scientic method if it is indeed a forgery and remains a magnet under false pretence and supporters of it.
      >
      > I'd have to somewhat disagree that archaeology is in its adolescence
      > since a moderate percentage of the theorist are of another order other than archaeological, neither of which creditentals are in a viable range to even state an opinion one way or the other to remove it from it's profiteers.
      >
      > jmcjr
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Vince" <v_barrows@> wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >  
      > > The following link is to the Coe article that Riggs mentioned.  Coe writes that archaeology is in its adolescence and we should consider looking back on what was found.
      > > http://www.scribd.com/doc/39439511/Through-a-Glass-Darkly
      > >
      > > Examples of Native sculptures from "ancestor shrines" in Tennesse are shown at the following link.
      > > http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-of-art/1979.206.476
      > >  
      > > Personal rock art reseach from USA shows other examples:
      > > http://www.freewebs.com/historyofmonksmound/entableture.htm
      > >
      > > Mount Pisgah Relics offers a unique glimpse at Native American relics and the injustice of conquest that surrunded them. 
      > >
      > > For some Vindication and examples of a stone carving found at Mount Pisgah North Carolina, please see the following link: 
      > > http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/Mount%20Pisgah/?action=view¤t=Plants238-1.jpg 
      > >
      > > Approximately 100 of these relics are shown at the following link: 
      > > http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/Mount%20Pisgah/?start=all 
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Respectfully Submitted; 
      > > Vince Barrows 
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > From: Brett Riggs <bhriggs@>; 
      > > To: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@>; 
      > > Cc: Theda Perdue <tperdue@>; 
      > > Subject: Re: Great Tribes 
      > > Sent: Wed, Sep 29, 2010 6:42:28 PM 
      > >
      > >
      > >     Dear Mr. Barrows, 
      > > With regard to the Pisgah relics, I'd refer you to: 
      > >
      > > Coe, Joffre L. 
      > > 1983 "Through a Glass Darkly: An Archaeological View of North Carolina's More Distant Past." in The Prehistory of North Carolina, eds. Mark A. Mathis and Jeffrey J. Crow, pp 161-177. North Carolina Division of Archives and History. 
      > >
      > > Coe deals with the effigies, and develops the case for Valentine having been credulous (i.e., duped) by his buyer, A.J. Osbourne, who'd hired a jobber to carve the figurines. Coe not only had copies of all the Valentine records and correspondence, he also had access to the figurines themselves. 
      > >
      > > Ironically, Emmert, who had become an incorrigible alchoholic by the time of the Bat Creek affair, may have derived his inspiration for the Bat Creek stone from the Valentine figurines, and created a less transparent forgery. Emmert was clinging to his job by his fingernails when he "found" the Bat Creek stone, and I suspect that, as a favor, he was ushered quietly out of the job rather than be ruined by the direct accusation of forgery. 
      > >
      > > I have to suspect that "idols" cited by John Ridge refers to figures that conform more directly with well documented representations in Southeastern native art, such as the statuary from Etowah 
      > > see: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Etowah_statues_HRoe_2007.jpg
      > > or Duck River. 
      > > see: http://www.unl.edu/museum/research/entomology/Egyptian_Sacred_Scarab/sandy.gif
      > >
      > > While I know this interpretation is not especially satisfying, I hope it is helpful and makes sense. 
      > >
      > > Best, 
      > > Brett Riggs 
      > >
      > >
      > > On 9/29/2010 1:36 PM, Theda Perdue wrote: 
      > > > On 9/29/2010 1:27 PM, Vincent Barrows wrote: 
      > > >> Dear Theda Perdue and Brett Riggs 
      > > >> 
      > > >> The historical implications are interesting about the Pisgah Relics. 
      > > >> From 1883-1889, Rau worked with John W. Emmert at the Smithsonian . 
      > > >> Emmert was sent secretly to debunk the Pisgah Stone Carvings. During 
      > > >> this field assignment, Emmert failed to find any of the carvings that 
      > > >> were discovered by Mann S. Valentine. Subsequently, Emmmert payed 
      > > >> someone to fabricate similar "soapstone specimens". Emmert wrote "I will 
      > > >> have your specimens done in a few days and will ship them...please have 
      > > >> the money here as soon as possible", and continued "I think I would be 
      > > >> acting in bad faith with the parties who made them if we were to mention 
      > > >> their names". Emmert accused Mann Valentine of forgery, claiming he "had 
      > > >> them to make his specimens, and bury them and then he afterward came 
      > > >> back with the other men and had them dug up." In another version, Emmert 
      > > >> expounded that Mr. Valentine "had someone immerse them in ferruginous 
      > > >> running water to give them an antique appearance". Charles Rau objected 
      > > >> to the stone carvings on the basis of their material, which he called 
      > > >> "potstone". Rau later admitted "I had no direct evidence for supporting 
      > > >> my opinion." In 1889, Emmert discovered the "Mound 70 tablet", also 
      > > >> known as the "Bat Creek Tablet" in a mound. It was inscribed piece of 
      > > >> dark pipestone with lettering that resembled the Cherokee Alphabet, and 
      > > >> this discovery cost him job with the Smithsonian. 
      > > >> 
      > > >> Could the Cherokee Idols that were discussed in 1832 by John Ridge have 
      > > >> been found at Pisgah? 
      > > >> 
      > > >> Thank you; 
      > > >> Vince Barrows 
      > > >> 
      > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------- 
      > > >> *From:* Theda Perdue < tperdue@ > 
      > > >> *To:* Vincent Barrows < v_barrows@ > 
      > > >> *Cc:* Brett Riggs < bhriggs@ > 
      > > >> *Sent:* Sat, September 4, 2010 9:53:54 AM 
      > > >> *Subject:* Re: Great Tribes 
      > > >> 
      > > >> Dear Mr. Barrows: 
      > > >> 
      > > >> Thank you for your kind remarks. 
      > > >> 
      > > >> I am afraid I can't help you. I am a historian, not an archaeologist, 
      > > >> but I can refer you to the person I consider to be the very best 
      > > >> archeologist of the Cherokees, Brett Riggs. 
      > > >> 
      > > >> Best wishes, 
      > > >> Theda Perdue 
      > > >> 
      > > >> On 9/3/2010 11:10 PM, Vincent Barrows wrote: 
      > > >> > 
      > > >> > 
      > > >> > Dear Dr. Theda Perdue; 
      > > >> > 
      > > >> > 
      > > >> > Your commentary in the recent documentary entitled "Great Tribes" that 
      > > >> > aired on History International was greatly appreciated. In Great 
      > > >> Tribes, 
      > > >> > John Ridge was quoted, stating that the European settlers asked the 
      > > >> > Cherokee to "cast away their idols"; and that the Cherokee did so. This 
      > > >> > is to ask the favor of your response about whether any objects/idols 
      > > >> > that were cast away by the Cherokee have been found archaeologically 
      > > >> > from North Carolina ? 
      > > >> > 
      > > >> > Specifically of interest are the figurines from Mount Pisgah . While 
      > > >> > visiting the Valentine Richmond History Museum , I photographed over 
      > > >> 100 
      > > >> > of the 2000 carved figurines that are curated there. Their surfaces are 
      > > >> > covered in crosshatching and nested chevrons. Material appears to be 
      > > >> > mica-schist, soapstone, white sandstone, and red sandstone. Charles Rau 
      > > >> > called the material "Potstone". The objects range in size from about 10 
      > > >> > mm to a few feet in length. Weight is from about 0.3 grams up to over 
      > > >> > 5.5 pounds. Providence is Haywood County , Mount Pisgah in North 
      > > >> > Carolina . They were reportedly excavated by Mr. Valentine from 
      > > >> > 1879-1882 from one and a half to two feet (1.5'-2.0') beneath the 
      > > >> ground 
      > > >> > surface. The stones coated with dirt, red ochre, and soot, Some appear 
      > > >> > to be fire-cracked rock (FCR) with signs heat treatment that penetrate 
      > > >> > deeply beneath the surfaces of the stones. 
      > > >> > 
      > > >> > Also visited the UNC archives where I read the letters from Valentine 
      > > >> > that are filed there. I am aware of the controversy stemming from 
      > > >> > Charles Rau's objection to the stones. It is the Valentine Richmond 
      > > >> > History Museum 's opinion that these objects are fakes. When asked what 
      > > >> > made them come to their conclusion, The curator replied "because 
      > > >> that is 
      > > >> > what Charles Rau said." When I asked if they read Mr. Valentine's 
      > > >> > rebuttal to Rau, they replied "no". The curator said "we would be more 
      > > >> > than happy if you prove that they are authentic." 
      > > >> > 
      > > >> > Thank you in advance for your time and any response; 
      > > >> > 
      > > >> > Sincerely; 
      > > >> > Vince Barrows 
      > > >> > 
      > > >> > 
      > > >> 
      > > >> 
      > > > 
      > > > 
      > > > I am not an archaeologist. 
      > > > 
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >     
      > >
      > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Vince" <v_barrows@> wrote:
      > > >
      > > > The following details a little known and mostly forgotten discovery from Western North Carolina, around 1870.
      > > >
      > > > The discovery of about 2000 stone carvings were reported found by Mann Valentine. Crosshaching markings and nested chevrons were etched over most of the surfaces.
      > > >
      > > > Many of the figurines are 3-Dimensional statues of bears, bison, peccary, birds, deer, snakes, otter, alligators, cats, dogs, humans. "Old world" animal carvings in the collection include rhino, hippo, and two-humped bactrian camel. There are also lodges carved with surfaces covered in crosshatching and many more figurines.
      > > >
      > > > These figurines are now curated at the Valentine Richmond History Museum in Richmond, VA. There are around 56 of the figurines on display and about 1500 are in crates located in the museum vaults.
      > > >
      > > > During a 6-hour collections tour, I measured and photographed one hundred (100) of the figurines including weight, and dimensions. The size of the figurines ranged in length from about 11.5 mm to over 610 mm. The objects weigh 11.3 grams to about 10 pounds.
      > > >
      > > > They are made from materials ranging from Steatite, Mica Schist, White Sandstone, and other types sandstone.
      > > >
      > > > I have just finished compiling the data on these objects and added the list of data to the group files for your information.
      > > >
      > > > The following link include One of the photos of figurines ... when you have some free time, feel free to peruse through the photobucket link.
      > > >
      > > > http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/Mount%20Pisgah/?action=view&current=Plants019.jpg
      > > >
      > > > In my opinion, these objects were part of an ancestral shrine and represent important connections with ancient waterways.
      > > >
      > > > Any comments are welcome.
      > > > Thank you;
      > > > Vince
      > > >
      > >
      >

    • james m clark jr
      Perhaps so Ma am, Being from that area also, I am sure the majority of Profeser Kirk conclusions are derived from basic county historical archives. Not that
      Message 2 of 10 , Mar 21, 2011
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        Perhaps so Ma'am,

        Being from that area also, I am sure the majority of Profeser Kirk conclusions are  derived from basic county historical archives.  Not that everyone agrees with it either but all I can assume is that most of what Kirk states is documented although there seems to be some leancey regarding tontological statements regarding historians and credentuals;  H.G. Wells seems to be used as a good example, but he wasn't a total idiot either regardless of tastes. The Epigraphy Societies Occasional papers as of to date is all I have come across so far regarding any ridicual of Kirk and a near date of the article Kirk presented which was more than likely in 2003 the same year I started my first archaeological project. Personally it hasn't even crossed my mind that it could have been a forgery, but all I have is what I have found out myself which is always in question and just as abscure.   

        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/American_Indian_Injustice/photos/album/400214988/pic/list

        Obscure basalt artifact

         


        --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, wayne trickle <wtrickle@...> wrote:
        >
        >    Mr. Kirks claims have no tangible evidence to back them up .They are as much conjecture as anything else. At  least J. Huston  McCulloch ,wrongly called Justin McCulloch in Mr. Kirk's article ,had some science behind his claims ,such as carbon dating of artifacts found in the mounds,as well as studies on the metallurgy of the copper that was found.
        >     Being born and raised in the area, the montage of Republican/Democrat back and forth does indeed still exist today and does carry certain social intricacies.That said,  there are absolutely no known sources to back up the assumptions of Mr. Kirk, which makes his whole argument  at best... gossip. 
        >    Crystal Trickle 
        >
        > --- On Sun, 3/20/11, james m clark jr jameyboy@... wrote:
        >
        >
        > From: james m clark jr jameyboy@...
        > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Mount Pisgah Stone Carvings...
        > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Sunday, March 20, 2011, 7:20 AM
        >
        >
        >  
        >
        >
        >
        > Aah! Thanks for the links Vinny.
        >
        > The Bat Creek Stone
        > By Lowell Kirk
        > http://www.telliquah.com/Batcreek.htm
        >
        > source
        > The Tellico Plains Mountain Press
        > http://www.telliquah.com/default.htm
        >
        > History Prof./Ass. Hist. prof. Lowell Kirk was a teacher at Hiwassee College in Tennessee not an 8th grade history teacher as I falsely stated I assume. I have been unable to recover a given account of the articles publication date which I've read only once between 2001-2005.
        >
        > Some of the same sources are refered to within Vince's Correspondent emails regarding the Bat Creek Stone as a main source rather than neologism.
        >
        > jmcjr
        >
        > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "james m clark jr" jameyboy@ wrote:
        > >
        > > Regarding the Bat Creek Stone and theories surrounding it a local history teacher who unknowingly had relocated to the area to teach 8th grade history about 11 years ago presents some interesting documentation regarding the men involved. Regardless of the history teachers opinion forgery was written all over the Bat Creek Stone also.
        > >
        > > As far as I know the Bat Creek Stone is still the property of the Smithsonian institution I assume, if so this could be one example of the disadvantages of scientic method if it is indeed a forgery and remains a magnet under false pretence and supporters of it.
        > >
        > > I'd have to somewhat disagree that archaeology is in its adolescence
        > > since a moderate percentage of the theorist are of another order other than archaeological, neither of which creditentals are in a viable range to even state an opinion one way or the other to remove it from it's profiteers.
        > >
        > > jmcjr
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Vince" <v_barrows@> wrote:
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >  
        > > > The following link is to the Coe article that Riggs mentioned.  Coe writes that archaeology is in its adolescence and we should consider looking back on what was found.
        > > > http://www.scribd.com/doc/39439511/Through-a-Glass-Darkly
        > > >
        > > > Examples of Native sculptures from "ancestor shrines" in Tennesse are shown at the following link.
        > > > http://www.metmuseum.org/toah/works-of-art/1979.206.476
        > > >  
        > > > Personal rock art reseach from USA shows other examples:
        > > > http://www.freewebs.com/historyofmonksmound/entableture.htm
        > > >
        > > > Mount Pisgah Relics offers a unique glimpse at Native American relics and the injustice of conquest that surrunded them. 
        > > >
        > > > For some Vindication and examples of a stone carving found at Mount Pisgah North Carolina, please see the following link: 
        > > > http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/Mount%20Pisgah/?action=view¤t=Plants238-1.jpg 
        > > >
        > > > Approximately 100 of these relics are shown at the following link: 
        > > > http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/Mount%20Pisgah/?start=all 
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > Respectfully Submitted; 
        > > > Vince Barrows 
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > From: Brett Riggs <bhriggs@>; 
        > > > To: Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@>; 
        > > > Cc: Theda Perdue <tperdue@>; 
        > > > Subject: Re: Great Tribes 
        > > > Sent: Wed, Sep 29, 2010 6:42:28 PM 
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >     Dear Mr. Barrows, 
        > > > With regard to the Pisgah relics, I'd refer you to: 
        > > >
        > > > Coe, Joffre L. 
        > > > 1983 "Through a Glass Darkly: An Archaeological View of North Carolina's More Distant Past." in The Prehistory of North Carolina, eds. Mark A. Mathis and Jeffrey J. Crow, pp 161-177. North Carolina Division of Archives and History. 
        > > >
        > > > Coe deals with the effigies, and develops the case for Valentine having been credulous (i.e., duped) by his buyer, A.J. Osbourne, who'd hired a jobber to carve the figurines. Coe not only had copies of all the Valentine records and correspondence, he also had access to the figurines themselves. 
        > > >
        > > > Ironically, Emmert, who had become an incorrigible alchoholic by the time of the Bat Creek affair, may have derived his inspiration for the Bat Creek stone from the Valentine figurines, and created a less transparent forgery. Emmert was clinging to his job by his fingernails when he "found" the Bat Creek stone, and I suspect that, as a favor, he was ushered quietly out of the job rather than be ruined by the direct accusation of forgery. 
        > > >
        > > > I have to suspect that "idols" cited by John Ridge refers to figures that conform more directly with well documented representations in Southeastern native art, such as the statuary from Etowah 
        > > > see: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Etowah_statues_HRoe_2007.jpg
        > > > or Duck River. 
        > > > see: http://www.unl.edu/museum/research/entomology/Egyptian_Sacred_Scarab/sandy.gif
        > > >
        > > > While I know this interpretation is not especially satisfying, I hope it is helpful and makes sense. 
        > > >
        > > > Best, 
        > > > Brett Riggs 
        > > >
        > > >
        > > > On 9/29/2010 1:36 PM, Theda Perdue wrote: 
        > > > > On 9/29/2010 1:27 PM, Vincent Barrows wrote: 
        > > > >> Dear Theda Perdue and Brett Riggs 
        > > > >> 
        > > > >> The historical implications are interesting about the Pisgah Relics. 
        > > > >> From 1883-1889, Rau worked with John W. Emmert at the Smithsonian . 
        > > > >> Emmert was sent secretly to debunk the Pisgah Stone Carvings. During 
        > > > >> this field assignment, Emmert failed to find any of the carvings that 
        > > > >> were discovered by Mann S. Valentine. Subsequently, Emmmert payed 
        > > > >> someone to fabricate similar "soapstone specimens". Emmert wrote "I will 
        > > > >> have your specimens done in a few days and will ship them...please have 
        > > > >> the money here as soon as possible", and continued "I think I would be 
        > > > >> acting in bad faith with the parties who made them if we were to mention 
        > > > >> their names". Emmert accused Mann Valentine of forgery, claiming he "had 
        > > > >> them to make his specimens, and bury them and then he afterward came 
        > > > >> back with the other men and had them dug up." In another version, Emmert 
        > > > >> expounded that Mr. Valentine "had someone immerse them in ferruginous 
        > > > >> running water to give them an antique appearance". Charles Rau objected 
        > > > >> to the stone carvings on the basis of their material, which he called 
        > > > >> "potstone". Rau later admitted "I had no direct evidence for supporting 
        > > > >> my opinion." In 1889, Emmert discovered the "Mound 70 tablet", also 
        > > > >> known as the "Bat Creek Tablet" in a mound. It was inscribed piece of 
        > > > >> dark pipestone with lettering that resembled the Cherokee Alphabet, and 
        > > > >> this discovery cost him job with the Smithsonian. 
        > > > >> 
        > > > >> Could the Cherokee Idols that were discussed in 1832 by John Ridge have 
        > > > >> been found at Pisgah? 
        > > > >> 
        > > > >> Thank you; 
        > > > >> Vince Barrows 
        > > > >> 
        > > > >> ---------------------------------------------------------- 
        > > > >> *From:* Theda Perdue < tperdue@ > 
        > > > >> *To:* Vincent Barrows < v_barrows@ > 
        > > > >> *Cc:* Brett Riggs < bhriggs@ > 
        > > > >> *Sent:* Sat, September 4, 2010 9:53:54 AM 
        > > > >> *Subject:* Re: Great Tribes 
        > > > >> 
        > > > >> Dear Mr. Barrows: 
        > > > >> 
        > > > >> Thank you for your kind remarks. 
        > > > >> 
        > > > >> I am afraid I can't help you. I am a historian, not an archaeologist, 
        > > > >> but I can refer you to the person I consider to be the very best 
        > > > >> archeologist of the Cherokees, Brett Riggs. 
        > > > >> 
        > > > >> Best wishes, 
        > > > >> Theda Perdue 
        > > > >> 
        > > > >> On 9/3/2010 11:10 PM, Vincent Barrows wrote: 
        > > > >> > 
        > > > >> > 
        > > > >> > Dear Dr. Theda Perdue; 
        > > > >> > 
        > > > >> > 
        > > > >> > Your commentary in the recent documentary entitled "Great Tribes" that 
        > > > >> > aired on History International was greatly appreciated. In Great 
        > > > >> Tribes, 
        > > > >> > John Ridge was quoted, stating that the European settlers asked the 
        > > > >> > Cherokee to "cast away their idols"; and that the Cherokee did so. This 
        > > > >> > is to ask the favor of your response about whether any objects/idols 
        > > > >> > that were cast away by the Cherokee have been found archaeologically 
        > > > >> > from North Carolina ? 
        > > > >> > 
        > > > >> > Specifically of interest are the figurines from Mount Pisgah . While 
        > > > >> > visiting the Valentine Richmond History Museum , I photographed over 
        > > > >> 100 
        > > > >> > of the 2000 carved figurines that are curated there. Their surfaces are 
        > > > >> > covered in crosshatching and nested chevrons. Material appears to be 
        > > > >> > mica-schist, soapstone, white sandstone, and red sandstone. Charles Rau 
        > > > >> > called the material "Potstone". The objects range in size from about 10 
        > > > >> > mm to a few feet in length. Weight is from about 0.3 grams up to over 
        > > > >> > 5.5 pounds. Providence is Haywood County , Mount Pisgah in North 
        > > > >> > Carolina . They were reportedly excavated by Mr. Valentine from 
        > > > >> > 1879-1882 from one and a half to two feet (1.5'-2.0') beneath the 
        > > > >> ground 
        > > > >> > surface. The stones coated with dirt, red ochre, and soot, Some appear 
        > > > >> > to be fire-cracked rock (FCR) with signs heat treatment that penetrate 
        > > > >> > deeply beneath the surfaces of the stones. 
        > > > >> > 
        > > > >> > Also visited the UNC archives where I read the letters from Valentine 
        > > > >> > that are filed there. I am aware of the controversy stemming from 
        > > > >> > Charles Rau's objection to the stones. It is the Valentine Richmond 
        > > > >> > History Museum 's opinion that these objects are fakes. When asked what 
        > > > >> > made them come to their conclusion, The curator replied "because 
        > > > >> that is 
        > > > >> > what Charles Rau said." When I asked if they read Mr. Valentine's 
        > > > >> > rebuttal to Rau, they replied "no". The curator said "we would be more 
        > > > >> > than happy if you prove that they are authentic." 
        > > > >> > 
        > > > >> > Thank you in advance for your time and any response; 
        > > > >> > 
        > > > >> > Sincerely; 
        > > > >> > Vince Barrows 
        > > > >> > 
        > > > >> > 
        > > > >> 
        > > > >> 
        > > > > 
        > > > > 
        > > > > I am not an archaeologist. 
        > > > > 
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > > >     
        > > >
        > > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Vince" <v_barrows@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > The following details a little known and mostly forgotten discovery from Western North Carolina, around 1870.
        > > > >
        > > > > The discovery of about 2000 stone carvings were reported found by Mann Valentine. Crosshaching markings and nested chevrons were etched over most of the surfaces.
        > > > >
        > > > > Many of the figurines are 3-Dimensional statues of bears, bison, peccary, birds, deer, snakes, otter, alligators, cats, dogs, humans. "Old world" animal carvings in the collection include rhino, hippo, and two-humped bactrian camel. There are also lodges carved with surfaces covered in crosshatching and many more figurines.
        > > > >
        > > > > These figurines are now curated at the Valentine Richmond History Museum in Richmond, VA. There are around 56 of the figurines on display and about 1500 are in crates located in the museum vaults.
        > > > >
        > > > > During a 6-hour collections tour, I measured and photographed one hundred (100) of the figurines including weight, and dimensions. The size of the figurines ranged in length from about 11.5 mm to over 610 mm. The objects weigh 11.3 grams to about 10 pounds.
        > > > >
        > > > > They are made from materials ranging from Steatite, Mica Schist, White Sandstone, and other types sandstone.
        > > > >
        > > > > I have just finished compiling the data on these objects and added the list of data to the group files for your information.
        > > > >
        > > > > The following link include One of the photos of figurines ... when you have some free time, feel free to peruse through the photobucket link.
        > > > >
        > > > > http://s243.photobucket.com/albums/ff280/Marburg72/Mount%20Pisgah/?action=view&current=Plants019.jpg
        > > > >
        > > > > In my opinion, these objects were part of an ancestral shrine and represent important connections with ancient waterways.
        > > > >
        > > > > Any comments are welcome.
        > > > > Thank you;
        > > > > Vince
        > > > >
        > > >
        > >
        >

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