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  • minnesotastan@yahoo.com
    I have also deleted two posts this evening, both of which were on the subject of Wisconsin Rights. There was nothing offensive in their content, but the
    Message 1 of 5 , Mar 2, 2011
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      I have also deleted two posts this evening, both of which were on the subject of "Wisconsin Rights." There was nothing offensive in their content, but the subject matter was just totally off-topic in terms of this group's primary purpose.

      There are a variety of other Yahoo! groups designed for the discussion of politics, ethics, sociology, and such. They can be accessed via the search box in the upper right corner.

      Sincerely yours,

      Grouchy old man/group founder
    • Jon van Helsing
      Thank you. This group is not the place for the discussion of political issues. Jon
      Message 2 of 5 , Mar 2, 2011
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        Thank you…

         

        This group is not the place for the discussion of political issues.

         

        Jon

      • james m clark jr
        Exactly Stan what does the Sahel, Lake Chad and the Atlantic have to do with defussionist or democracy in the 11th century let alone the last Exilarch or
        Message 3 of 5 , Mar 21, 2011
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          Exactly Stan what does the Sahel, Lake Chad and the Atlantic have to do with defussionist or democracy in the 11th century let alone the last Exilarch or Wisconsin politics in compliance with the state of Egypt or Libya in the past or the present. I was very offended.

          However there are trans-Atlantic claims by well respected Muslim & other scholars such as John D Keyser's input proir to 1300

          (Keyser also supports the Bat Creek Stone Theory if I recall correctly assumed it was made by the Yuchi which I would not claim so either) Regarding the Olmec Keysers Educational guess is already listed in AWS links http://www.carnaval.com/columbus/diffusion.htm

          At any rate, this was what I had intended post before the political derailment.

          note:

          *highlighted links will not work at the yahoo site but may work in email regarding wikipedia subject

          jmcjr

           

           

          Claim of trans-Atlantic contact

          According to Mark Hyman, Abubakari II was interested in scholars' stories of a "gourd-shaped world, the big ocean to the west and the new world beyond that". Hyman claims that the mansa interviewed sail-builders from Egypt and Mediterranean cities and decided to build ships on the coast of Senegambia. Hyman states that preparations for the journey included carpenters, smiths, navigators, merchants, potters, jewelers, weavers, magicians, diviners, thinkers, and the Mandinka military, and that every vessel tugged a supply-boat with food for two years, dried meat, grain, preserved fruit in ceramic jars, and gold for trade.[3] Hymans claims that key ships would communicate with drummers, and that all communications were coordinated from the leading ship of the fleet.[3][4]

          Ibn Fadlullah al-Umari (1300–1348), in his encyclopaedic work Masalik Al-Absar, relates a story obtained from the Mamluk governor of Cairo, Ibn Amir Hajib. While Mansa Musa was visiting Cairo as part of his pilgrimage to Mecca, Ibn Amir Hajib asked how he had succeeded to the throne, and this is what Ibn Amir Hajib reported he was told:

          The ruler who preceded me did not believe that it was impossible to reach the extremity of the ocean that encircles the earth (meaning the Atlantic): he wanted to reach that (end) and was determined to pursue his plan. So he equipped two hundred boats full of men, and many others full of gold, water and provisions sufficient for several years. He ordered the captain not to return until they had reached the other end of the ocean, or until he had exhausted the provisions and water. So they set out on their journey. They were absent for a long period, and, at last just one boat returned. When questioned the captain replied: 'O Prince, we navigated for a long period, until we saw in the midst of the ocean a great river which flowing massively. My boat was the last one; others were ahead of me, and they were drowned in the great whirlpool and never came out again. I sailed back to escape this current.' But the Sultan would not believe him. He ordered two thousand boats to be equipped for him and his men, and one thousand more for water and provisions. Then he conferred the regency on me for the term of his absence, and departed with his men, never to return nor to give a sign of life.[2]

          The reference just used for the quote and the source of the quote leaves out the sentence which precedes the quote, "We belong to a family where the son succeeds the father in power.[5] Levtzion comments [6] "He did not say 'my father'. This evidence strengthens the claim that Mansa Musa did not succeed his father."

          Ivan van Sertima of Rutgers University, claims that Abubakari II travelled to the New World in They Came Before Columbus: The African Presence in Ancient America. It has also been claimed by some that the Garifuna population are descendants of the members of this expedition.[7][8]

          Proponents of a successful voyage for Abubakari II have claimed that Abubakari reached the Americas some time in the early 14th century. The consensus among mainstream archaeologists, anthropologists, ethnohistorians, linguists, and other modern pre-Columbian scholars is that there is no evidence of any such voyage reaching the Americas, and that there are insufficient evidential grounds to suppose there has been contact between Africa and the New World at any point in the pre-Columbian era.[9] A BBC article titled "Africa's greatest explorer", summarizes the controversy from the perspectives of the scholars and historians in Mali.[10]


          --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, minnesotastan@... wrote:
          >
          > I have also deleted two posts this evening, both of which were on the subject of "Wisconsin Rights." There was nothing offensive in their content, but the subject matter was just totally off-topic in terms of this group's primary purpose.
          >
          > There are a variety of other Yahoo! groups designed for the discussion of politics, ethics, sociology, and such. They can be accessed via the search box in the upper right corner.
          >
          > Sincerely yours,
          >
          > Grouchy old man/group founder
          >

        • james m clark jr
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Bakr_II http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kankan_Musa_I jmcjr
          Message 4 of 5 , Mar 21, 2011
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            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Bakr_II

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kankan_Musa_I

            jmcjr

            --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "james m clark jr" <jameyboy@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Exactly Stan what does the Sahel, Lake Chad and the Atlantic have to do
            > with defussionist or democracy in the 11th century let alone the last
            > Exilarch or Wisconsin politics in compliance with the state of Egypt or
            > Libya in the past or the present. I was very offended.
            >
            > However there are trans-Atlantic claims by well respected Muslim & other
            > scholars such as John D Keyser's input proir to 1300
            >
            > (Keyser also supports the Bat Creek Stone Theory if I recall correctly
            > assumed it was made by the Yuchi which I would not claim so either)
            > Regarding the Olmec Keysers Educational guess is already listed in AWS
            > links http://www.carnaval.com/columbus/diffusion.htm
            > <http://www.carnaval.com/columbus/diffusion.htm>
            >
            > At any rate, this was what I had intended post before the political
            > derailment.
            >
            > note:
            >
            > *highlighted links will not work at the yahoo site but may work in email
            > regarding wikipedia subject
            >
            > jmcjr
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Claim of trans-Atlantic contact
            >
            > According to Mark Hyman, Abubakari II was interested in scholars'
            > stories of a "gourd-shaped world, the big ocean to the west and the
            > new world beyond that". Hyman claims that the mansa interviewed
            > sail-builders from Egypt </wiki/Egypt> and Mediterranean
            > </wiki/Mediterranean> cities and decided to build ships </wiki/Ship>
            > on the coast of Senegambia </wiki/Senegambia_(geography)> . Hyman states
            > that preparations for the journey included carpenters, smiths,
            > navigators, merchants, potters, jewelers, weavers, magicians, diviners,
            > thinkers, and the Mandinka </wiki/Mandinka_people> military, and that
            > every vessel tugged a supply-boat with food for two years, dried meat,
            > grain, preserved fruit in ceramic jars, and gold for trade.[3]
            > <#cite_note-hyman-2> Hymans claims that key ships would communicate
            > with drummers, and that all communications were coordinated from the
            > leading ship of the fleet.[3] <#cite_note-hyman-2> [4]
            > <#cite_note-vansertima-3>
            >
            > Ibn Fadlullah al-Umari (1300–1348), in his encyclopaedic work
            > Masalik Al-Absar, relates a story obtained from the Mamluk governor of
            > Cairo, Ibn Amir Hajib. While Mansa Musa was visiting Cairo as part of
            > his pilgrimage to Mecca, Ibn Amir Hajib asked how he had succeeded to
            > the throne, and this is what Ibn Amir Hajib reported he was told:
            > The ruler who preceded me did not believe that it was impossible to
            > reach the extremity of the ocean that encircles the earth (meaning the
            > Atlantic): he wanted to reach that (end) and was determined to pursue
            > his plan. So he equipped two hundred boats full of men, and many others
            > full of gold, water and provisions sufficient for several years. He
            > ordered the captain not to return until they had reached the other end
            > of the ocean, or until he had exhausted the provisions and water. So
            > they set out on their journey. They were absent for a long period, and,
            > at last just one boat returned. When questioned the captain replied: 'O
            > Prince, we navigated for a long period, until we saw in the midst of the
            > ocean a great river which flowing massively. My boat was the last one;
            > others were ahead of me, and they were drowned in the great whirlpool
            > and never came out again. I sailed back to escape this current.' But the
            > Sultan would not believe him. He ordered two thousand boats to be
            > equipped for him and his men, and one thousand more for water and
            > provisions. Then he conferred the regency on me for the term of his
            > absence, and departed with his men, never to return nor to give a sign
            > of life.[2] <#cite_note-Abbas_Hamdani_1994-1>
            > The reference just used for the quote and the source of the quote leaves
            > out the sentence which precedes the quote, "We belong to a family where
            > the son succeeds the father in power.[5] <#cite_note-4> Levtzion
            > comments [6] <#cite_note-5> "He did not say 'my father'. This evidence
            > strengthens the claim that Mansa Musa did not succeed his father."
            >
            > Ivan van Sertima </wiki/Ivan_van_Sertima> of Rutgers University
            > </wiki/Rutgers_University> , claims that Abubakari II travelled to the
            > New World in They Came Before Columbus: The African Presence in Ancient
            > America. It has also been claimed by some that the Garifuna
            > </wiki/Garifuna_people> population are descendants of the members of
            > this expedition.[7] <#cite_note-6> [8] <#cite_note-7>
            >
            > Proponents of a successful voyage for Abubakari II have claimed that
            > Abubakari reached the Americas </wiki/Americas> some time in the early
            > 14th century. The consensus among mainstream archaeologists,
            > anthropologists, ethnohistorians, linguists, and other modern
            > pre-Columbian scholars is that there is no evidence of any such voyage
            > reaching the Americas, and that there are insufficient evidential
            > grounds to suppose there has been contact between Africa and the New
            > World </wiki/New_World> at any point in the pre-Columbian era.[9]
            > <#cite_note-8> A BBC article titled "Africa's greatest explorer",
            > summarizes the controversy from the perspectives of the scholars and
            > historians in Mali.[10] <#cite_note-9>
            >
            >
            > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, minnesotastan@
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > I have also deleted two posts this evening, both of which were on the
            > subject of "Wisconsin Rights." There was nothing offensive in their
            > content, but the subject matter was just totally off-topic in terms of
            > this group's primary purpose.
            > >
            > > There are a variety of other Yahoo! groups designed for the discussion
            > of politics, ethics, sociology, and such. They can be accessed via the
            > search box in the upper right corner.
            > >
            > > Sincerely yours,
            > >
            > > Grouchy old man/group founder
            > >
            >
          • Susan
            Jamey, I was at the library earlier today, my hour time limit ran out and did not get to address your concerns again about the deletions. As you may have
            Message 5 of 5 , Mar 21, 2011
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              Jamey,
               
              I was at the library earlier today, my hour time limit ran out and  did not get to address your concerns again about the deletions.  As you may have noted with the Spammer that just joined and left a message at our site, when we remove and ban Spammers and those who leave porn, all messages (cascading below) in response to the Spam also come off under the subject heading. 
               
              The posts deleted two weeks ago,  once again, were so because they were not meant by the sender to be posted, and Ted S. who sent it said so.  Also, the political letter of current "Wisconsin Rights" from non-member Linda M. was inadvertently part of Ted's post, thus put into our site without her permission.  Since there were letters of response to to Ted's letter, you may read post #2140 w/deleted letters still cascading below: http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ancient_waterways_society/message/2140
              Jamey, and all should be able to see that the posts "Wisconsin Rights" do not even mention history, diffusion, ancient, waterways or anything related to anything connected with this group.  Easy removal.  Those of you who opt to receive "Individual Emails" under your Membership rights always have copies of each post emailed to you, and they can can never be removed by management deletions.  
               
              The only other post written by a member that I have personally removed was Feb. 8th (not with approval of co-host Vince Barrows or host MinnesotaStan).  I did so in good conscience after receiving a personal email request to myself from Ancient Vikings of America host, Steve H. who, besides several other concerns, felt the post to be a personal attack and asked that I delete the post from our site.  I removed it before our members started commenting on, which would make it not only permanent, but would put us into an issue that did not originate at this group!  I take personal responsibility/blame if members here believe I am undemocratic, suppressing of free speech, or a soft touch, etc.  I am neither a personal friend of, nor beholding to Ancient Vikings group host Steve who made the request for the deletion.  And he has not been an AWS member for years here so cannot post a rebuttal or defence. 
               
              My biggest concern was that the post (in duplicate) originated from another YahooGroup, the THOR group (mentioned in my last post):
              http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/thor-thehuntersohiorock/messages  and was submitted the same day into our group without the prior context that had taken place at the THOR site.  AWS post #2126 that I removed was originally THOR post #5487 which remains at the THOR group.   Perhaps understandably so at that site because of posts that preceded and followed Chris P's post.  Steve H. is an active member there and apparently did not/does not have a problem with the letter remaining public at THOR.  His very specific email request to me for deletion did express much concern that the post was put into our site.  
               
              Anyway, it is not easy to oversee a YahooGroup and Stan, Vince, and I do our best to be fair and to stimulate development here.  You all have the option to go to Membership, check "Individual Posts" and you will receive everything unchecked that comes on our site.
               
              Jamey, keep us posted if/when you start a group with some of the interesting ideas and "Chat" you have for weeks wanted members of AWS to support here.  If you are founder, host, and moderator of a group of your choosing, it can even be one with no suggestions,  rules of cordiality, or ethics. Research groups where everything and everyone is fair game are popular and can bring a great following.  I personally do not find 'Jerry Springer' intercommunications and public displays bring out the higher, deeper truths into ancient history that I personally am we are exploring together in civil ways, whereever possible. 
               
              Respectfully,
              Susan, co-founder and a co-host

              --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "james m clark jr" <jameyboy@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > Exactly Stan what does the Sahel, Lake Chad and the Atlantic have to do
              > with defussionist or democracy in the 11th century let alone the last
              > Exilarch or Wisconsin politics in compliance with the state of Egypt or
              > Libya in the past or the present. I was very offended.
              >
              > However there are trans-Atlantic claims by well respected Muslim & other
              > scholars such as John D Keyser's input proir to 1300
              >
              > (Keyser also supports the Bat Creek Stone Theory if I recall correctly
              > assumed it was made by the Yuchi which I would not claim so either)
              > Regarding the Olmec Keysers Educational guess is already listed in AWS
              > links http://www.carnaval.com/columbus/diffusion.htm
              > <http://www.carnaval.com/columbus/diffusion.htm>
              >
              > At any rate, this was what I had intended post before the political
              > derailment.
              >
              > note:
              >
              > *highlighted links will not work at the yahoo site but may work in email
              > regarding wikipedia subject
              >
              > jmcjr
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Claim of trans-Atlantic contact
              >
              > According to Mark Hyman, Abubakari II was interested in scholars'
              > stories of a "gourd-shaped world, the big ocean to the west and the
              > new world beyond that". Hyman claims that the mansa interviewed
              > sail-builders from Egypt </wiki/Egypt> and Mediterranean
              > </wiki/Mediterranean> cities and decided to build ships </wiki/Ship>
              > on the coast of Senegambia </wiki/Senegambia_(geography)> . Hyman states
              > that preparations for the journey included carpenters, smiths,
              > navigators, merchants, potters, jewelers, weavers, magicians, diviners,
              > thinkers, and the Mandinka </wiki/Mandinka_people> military, and that
              > every vessel tugged a supply-boat with food for two years, dried meat,
              > grain, preserved fruit in ceramic jars, and gold for trade.[3]
              > <#cite_note-hyman-2> Hymans claims that key ships would communicate
              > with drummers, and that all communications were coordinated from the
              > leading ship of the fleet.[3] <#cite_note-hyman-2> [4]
              > <#cite_note-vansertima-3>
              >
              > Ibn Fadlullah al-Umari (1300–1348), in his encyclopaedic work
              > Masalik Al-Absar, relates a story obtained from the Mamluk governor of
              > Cairo, Ibn Amir Hajib. While Mansa Musa was visiting Cairo as part of
              > his pilgrimage to Mecca, Ibn Amir Hajib asked how he had succeeded to
              > the throne, and this is what Ibn Amir Hajib reported he was told:
              > The ruler who preceded me did not believe that it was impossible to
              > reach the extremity of the ocean that encircles the earth (meaning the
              > Atlantic): he wanted to reach that (end) and was determined to pursue
              > his plan. So he equipped two hundred boats full of men, and many others
              > full of gold, water and provisions sufficient for several years. He
              > ordered the captain not to return until they had reached the other end
              > of the ocean, or until he had exhausted the provisions and water. So
              > they set out on their journey. They were absent for a long period, and,
              > at last just one boat returned. When questioned the captain replied: 'O
              > Prince, we navigated for a long period, until we saw in the midst of the
              > ocean a great river which flowing massively. My boat was the last one;
              > others were ahead of me, and they were drowned in the great whirlpool
              > and never came out again. I sailed back to escape this current.' But the
              > Sultan would not believe him. He ordered two thousand boats to be
              > equipped for him and his men, and one thousand more for water and
              > provisions. Then he conferred the regency on me for the term of his
              > absence, and departed with his men, never to return nor to give a sign
              > of life.[2] <#cite_note-Abbas_Hamdani_1994-1>
              > The reference just used for the quote and the source of the quote leaves
              > out the sentence which precedes the quote, "We belong to a family where
              > the son succeeds the father in power.[5] <#cite_note-4> Levtzion
              > comments [6] <#cite_note-5> "He did not say 'my father'. This evidence
              > strengthens the claim that Mansa Musa did not succeed his father."
              >
              > Ivan van Sertima </wiki/Ivan_van_Sertima> of Rutgers University
              > </wiki/Rutgers_University> , claims that Abubakari II travelled to the
              > New World in They Came Before Columbus: The African Presence in Ancient
              > America. It has also been claimed by some that the Garifuna
              > </wiki/Garifuna_people> population are descendants of the members of
              > this expedition.[7] <#cite_note-6> [8] <#cite_note-7>
              >
              > Proponents of a successful voyage for Abubakari II have claimed that
              > Abubakari reached the Americas </wiki/Americas> some time in the early
              > 14th century. The consensus among mainstream archaeologists,
              > anthropologists, ethnohistorians, linguists, and other modern
              > pre-Columbian scholars is that there is no evidence of any such voyage
              > reaching the Americas, and that there are insufficient evidential
              > grounds to suppose there has been contact between Africa and the New
              > World </wiki/New_World> at any point in the pre-Columbian era.[9]
              > <#cite_note-8> A BBC article titled "Africa's greatest explorer",
              > summarizes the controversy from the perspectives of the scholars and
              > historians in Mali.[10] <#cite_note-9>
              >
              >
              > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, minnesotastan@
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > I have also deleted two posts this evening, both of which were on the
              > subject of "Wisconsin Rights." There was nothing offensive in their
              > content, but the subject matter was just totally off-topic in terms of
              > this group's primary purpose.
              > >
              > > There are a variety of other Yahoo! groups designed for the discussion
              > of politics, ethics, sociology, and such. They can be accessed via the
              > search box in the upper right corner.
              > >
              > > Sincerely yours,
              > >
              > > Grouchy old man/group founder
              > >
              >
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