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Welcome new member; I A Lapham survey on Aztalan Mounds

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  • Susan
    Welcome to new member,Linda (Mannesah) from Oklahoma. I am sending an introductory letter which I hope is friendly and helpful. All here, A few weeks ago
    Message 1 of 7 , Jan 21, 2011
      Welcome to new member,Linda (Mannesah) from Oklahoma.  I am sending an introductory letter which I hope is friendly and helpful.
       
      All here,
      A few weeks ago the subject of the Rock Lake Research Association came up; Steve Steigerwald (webmaster of Aztalan State Park), Dave Weier, MinnesotaStan, Larry J., Jim Scherz and several others live near the Madison, WI area, where at least hundreds of earthen mounds and effigies remain. Only seventeen miles east are the pyramidical shaped Aztalan mounds and nearby Rock Lake. Found another web site w/time line from the Rock Lake Research group: http://www.rocklakeresearch.com/history.htm
       
      Then this morning when checking to see what the 1 New Link was (found neither the link nor sendor)I instead delved into an entry from the Mondbuilders Link that host MinnesotaStan sent (I include a couple of passages below): the complete online text of Lapham's classic work on the mounds and other antiquities of Wisconsin (1855): http://www.library.wisc.edu/etext/Antiquities/antiqHome.html#TOC  
      THE ANTIQUITIES OF WISCONSIN,
      AS
      SURVEYED AND DESCRIBED.
      BY
      I. A. LAPHAM
      CIVIL ENGINEER, ETC.,
      ON BEHALF OF THE AMERICAN ANTIQUARIAN SOCIETY.

      PUBLISHED BY THE SMITHSONIAN INSTITUTION,
      WASHINGTON D.C.
      JUNE 1855

      from Chapter 3, Section 2 - ANCIENT WORKS AT AND IN THE VICINITY OF AZTALAN:
       
      ....The only ancient work resembling this in its general features heretofore described, is that of Tuloom [Tulum] in Yucatan, of which an account is given by Mr. Stephens, and quoted by Mr. Squier1 . This is an inclosure of about the same dimensions, and bounded on the east by the sea; it consists of a loose stone wall, with watch-towers at the two west corners, corresponding with the two large pyramidal mounds at Aztalan, except that they are placed on the walls... [see Stephens description]

      ..... Do not these facts warrant the suggestion that the people of Aztalan, in Wisconsin, were a different people, in many respects, from those who erected the animal-shaped mounds? This location may possibly have been occupied by a colony of Mexicans; since we know that colonies were sometimes sent out by that singular people.1

      1 Squier's Nicaragua, Vol. II.

      I realize these texts were written 150 years ago and considerably more scientific data has been added to the larger historical and archaelogical records since then.  Yet I have long wondered why frequent, long-term, likely two way diffusion-(via travel, trade, genetic, etc.) by the mound/pyramid builders between the Mississippi Riverways and Aztalan/the Yucatan and beyond is considered a stretch of the imagination and/or lacking substantiative evidence.  I'd be more surprised--and it seems to me an insulting, undermining of the cultures and peoples---to believe that no contact took place between these vast regions and cultural groups.  Especially taking into consideration the proficient abilities of watercraft construction and navigation by ancient, aboriginal peoples living/navigating along interconnecting water routes within and between the Americas.   And pondering countless reasons human beings the world 'round have always needed, wanted, even curiously desired to travel beyond ones boundaries, clan, and 'own comfortable kind'.  

      Nevertheless, I am grateful folks from this group are making such inquiries and inter-/intra-continental travels. It is also great to see fairly frequent, incoming members to our group.  Please keep  posting about ancient or significant waterways nearest your home,  or your family's places of origin ...

       

    • james m clark jr
      Sahn gah ley! Ladies, Hha! I thought I was going crazy... tired... glad to have you both here Linda and Liz. I hope you enjoy your stay at AWS. be well y all,
      Message 2 of 7 , Jan 22, 2011
        Sahn gah ley! Ladies,

        Hha! I thought I was going crazy... tired... glad to have you both here Linda and Liz. I hope you enjoy your stay at AWS.

        be well y'all,
        jamey


        --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan" <beldingenglish@...> wrote:
        >
        > Welcome to new member,Linda (Mannesah) from Oklahoma. I am sending an
        > introductory letter which I hope is friendly and helpful. All here, A
        > few weeks ago the subject of the Rock Lake Research Association came up;
        > Steve Steigerwald (webmaster of Aztalan State Park), Dave Weier,
        > MinnesotaStan, Larry J., Jim Scherz and several others live near the
        > Madison, WI area, where at least hundreds of earthen mounds and effigies
        > remain. Only seventeen miles east are the pyramidical shaped Aztalan
        > mounds and nearby Rock Lake. Found another web site w/time line from the
        > Rock Lake Research group: http://www.rocklakeresearch.com/history.htm
        > <http://www.rocklakeresearch.com/history.htm> Then this morning when
        > checking to see what the 1 New Link
        > <http://us.mg1.mail.yahoo.com/group/ancient_waterways_society/links>
        > was (found neither the link nor sendor)I instead delved into an entry
        > from the Mondbuilders Link that host MinnesotaStan sent (I include a
        > couple of passages below): the complete online text of Lapham's classic
        > work on the mounds and other antiquities of Wisconsin (1855):
        > http://www.library.wisc.edu/etext/Antiquities/antiqHome.html#TOC
        > <http://www.library.wisc.edu/etext/Antiquities/antiqHome.html#TOC>
        > THE ANTIQUITIES OF WISCONSIN,
        > AS
        > SURVEYED AND DESCRIBED.
        > BY
        > I. A. LAPHAM
        > CIVIL ENGINEER, ETC.,
        > ON BEHALF OF THE AMERICAN ANTIQUARIAN SOCIETY.
        > PUBLISHED BY THE SMITHSONIAN INSTITUTION,
        > WASHINGTON D.C.
        > JUNE 1855 from Chapter 3, Section 2 - ANCIENT WORKS AT AND IN THE
        > VICINITY OF AZTALAN: ....The only ancient work resembling this in its
        > general features heretofore described, is that of Tuloom [Tulum] in
        > Yucatan, of which an account is given by Mr. Stephens, and quoted by Mr.
        > Squier1 . This is an inclosure of about the same dimensions, and bounded
        > on the east by the sea; it consists of a loose stone wall, with
        > watch-towers at the two west corners, corresponding with the two large
        > pyramidal mounds at Aztalan, except that they are placed on the walls...
        > [see Stephens description]
        > ..... Do not these facts warrant the suggestion that the people of
        > Aztalan, in Wisconsin, were a different people, in many respects, from
        > those who erected the animal-shaped mounds? This location may possibly
        > have been occupied by a colony of Mexicans; since we know that colonies
        > were sometimes sent out by that singular people.1 1 Squier's
        > Nicaragua, Vol. II.
        >
        > I realize these texts were written 150 years ago and considerably more
        > scientific data has been added to the larger historical and
        > archaelogical records since then. Yet I have long wondered why
        > frequent, long-term, likely two way diffusion-(via travel, trade,
        > genetic, etc.) by the mound/pyramid builders between the Mississippi
        > Riverways and Aztalan/the Yucatan and beyond is considered a stretch of
        > the imagination and/or lacking substantiative evidence. I'd be more
        > surprised--and it seems to me an insulting, undermining of the cultures
        > and peoples---to believe that no contact took place between these vast
        > regions and cultural groups. Especially taking into consideration the
        > proficient abilities of watercraft construction and navigation by
        > ancient, aboriginal peoples living/navigating along interconnecting
        > water routes within and between the Americas. And pondering countless
        > reasons human beings the world 'round have always needed, wanted, even
        > curiously desired to travel beyond ones boundaries, clan, and 'own
        > comfortable kind'.
        >
        > Nevertheless, I am grateful folks from this group are making such
        > inquiries and inter-/intra-continental travels. It is also great to see
        > fairly frequent, incoming members to our group. Please keep posting
        > about ancient or significant waterways nearest your home, or your
        > family's places of origin ...
        >
      • Ted Sojka
        Interesting you mention Tulum, as the shell necklace found at the Princess burial is thought to have come from that city in Yucatan, leading some to believe
        Message 3 of 7 , Jan 22, 2011
          Interesting you mention Tulum, as the shell necklace found at the Princess burial is thought to have come from that city in Yucatan, leading some to believe that her burial out side the city walls at Aztalan WI, showed among many things, that she may have been a visitor from afar.  The shell beads that surrounded her body in the burial were from the Tulum area according to some documents from those early digs.

          By the way some believe her bones should be reinterred, instead of in a box in a museum an hour away in Milwaukee.  

          ted


          On Jan 22, 2011, at 1:26 AM, Susan wrote:


          Welcome to new member,Linda (Mannesah) from Oklahoma.  I am sending an introductory letter which I hope is friendly and helpful.
           
          All here,
          A few weeks ago the subject of the Rock Lake Research Association came up; Steve Steigerwald (webmaster of Aztalan State Park), Dave Weier, MinnesotaStan, Larry J., Jim Scherz and several others live near the Madison, WI area, where at least hundreds of earthen mounds and effigies remain. Only seventeen miles east are the pyramidical shaped Aztalan mounds and nearby Rock Lake. Found another web site w/time line from the Rock Lake Research group:http://www.rocklakeresearch.com/history.htm
           
          Then this morning when checking to see what the 1 New Link was (found neither the link nor sendor)I instead delved into an entry from the Mondbuilders Link that host MinnesotaStan sent (I include a couple of passages below): the complete online text of Lapham's classic work on the mounds and other antiquities of Wisconsin (1855): http://www.library.wisc.edu/etext/Antiquities/antiqHome.html#TOC  
          THE ANTIQUITIES OF WISCONSIN,
          AS
          SURVEYED AND DESCRIBED.
          BY
          I. A. LAPHAM
          CIVIL ENGINEER, ETC.,
          ON BEHALF OF THE AMERICAN ANTIQUARIAN SOCIETY.

          PUBLISHED BY THE SMITHSONIAN INSTITUTION, 
          WASHINGTON D.C.
          JUNE 1855

          from Chapter 3, Section 2 - ANCIENT WORKS AT AND IN THE VICINITY OF AZTALAN:
           
          ....The only ancient work resembling this in its general features heretofore described, is that of Tuloom [Tulum] in Yucatan, of which an account is given by Mr. Stephens, and quoted by Mr. Squier1 . This is an inclosure of about the same dimensions, and bounded on the east by the sea; it consists of a loose stone wall, with watch-towers at the two west corners, corresponding with the two large pyramidal mounds at Aztalan, except that they are placed on the walls... [see Stephens description]

          ..... Do not these facts warrant the suggestion that the people of Aztalan, in Wisconsin, were a different people, in many respects, from those who erected the animal-shaped mounds? This location may possibly have been occupied by a colony of Mexicans; since we know that colonies were sometimes sent out by that singular people.1

          1 Squier's Nicaragua, Vol. II.

          I realize these texts were written 150 years ago and considerably more scientific data has been added to the larger historical and archaelogical records since then.  Yet I have long wondered why frequent, long-term, likely two way diffusion-(via travel, trade, genetic, etc.) by the mound/pyramid builders between the Mississippi Riverways and Aztalan/the Yucatan and beyond is considered a stretch of the imagination and/or lacking substantiative evidence.  I'd be more surprised--and it seems to me an insulting, undermining of the cultures and peoples---to believe that no contact took place between these vast regions and cultural groups.  Especially taking into consideration the proficient abilities of watercraft construction and navigation by ancient, aboriginal peoples living/navigating along interconnecting water routes within and between the Americas.   And pondering countless reasons human beings the world 'round have always needed, wanted, even curiously desired to travel beyond ones boundaries, clan, and 'own comfortable kind'.  

          Nevertheless, I am grateful folks from this group are making such inquiries and inter-/intra-continental travels. It is also great to see fairly frequent, incoming members to our group.  Please keep  posting about ancient or significant waterways nearest your home,  or your family's places of origin ...

           


        • Susan
          In response to Ted s letter, a bit of background re: the Princess Mound at Aztalan, note from Aztalan State Park/Mounds webmaster, Steve Steigerwald when he
          Message 4 of 7 , Jan 22, 2011

            In response to Ted's letter, a bit of background re: the Princess Mound at Aztalan, note from Aztalan State Park/Mounds webmaster, Steve Steigerwald when he first joined this group, and note he relayed from Jim Stevens (Seneca) Oneida.

            I'd been given permission by the correspondents to submit the following, which may help in the return of the missing artifact at Atzalan, near Lake Mills, WI two years ago.

             ___________________________________________________
            From:Steven Steigerwald aztalan2008@...

            Sat, 16 Aug 2008 2:28 pm

            Hi,
            Thanks for the great reply to the offering stone email Isent you. Sorry for the late answer but I am having trouble with my yahoo email so please change my email to....
            I was able to forward your email to Jim Stevens. I have not been in contact with him over your request for his email address. I hope he has seen fit to contact you if he got your forwarded email. I am very interested in the work you and your friends are doing. We have not found the offering stone yet but some think it may have been a prank as a small stone was left in place of the offering stone. Yes, please send the info on the stone around, that was oked by Jim Stevens. Again sorry for the late reply and thanks for your great reply.
            Steven Steigerwald
            For the Aztalan Museum and myself
            ________________-
            Aztalan offering stone
            From:Steven Steigerwald <stevensteigerwald@...>
            To:suzenglish@...
            Date:Wed, 30 Jul 2008 3:00 pm

            Attachment

            OfferingStone.jpg  

            Attachment

            The_Offering_Stone.doc  

            Hi,
            I understand you can contact Dr. Scherz.
            Would you please forward him this.
            The "Offering Stone" in the photo with Dr. Scherz was taken from the Aztalan Museum we think the night of 7-8-08. The other attachment is from a Native American about the stone.
            I am having some trouble with the attachments, hope this works.
            Thanks
            Steve Steigerwald
            ___________________________________
             From Jim Stevens:
             
            It is thought that sometime on the night of July 8, 2008, the stone disappeared from near one of the sacred hills at Aztalan. Around two fe et in diameter, the "Grandfather" was discovered during the 1990s by then caretaker Don Shuler, a man of Mohawk heritage. He found it one day while clearing out some brush just south of the so-called Princess Mound.
             
                 In this mound was buried sometime in the eleventh or twelfth century a young hunchback woman. In her twenties, she was laid to rest upon a robe of sea-shell discs. When her resting-place was breached early in the twentieth century, her remains were put on display in the Milwaukee Public Museum. When this disgrace was removed through protest by indigenous people, her bones were tossed indiscriminately with others, into a box in the basement of the museum.
             
                 The discovery of the offering stone was received by traditional Native Americans with respect and homage. The stone was re-sanctified.
             
                 People of the dominant culture, on the other hand, chose to regard it with suspicion. It was not necessarily a part of Aztalan culture, it was said. In the days leading up to the loss, on the Fourth of July, Aztalan Days were held, a festival focusing on the pioneer town as well as the ancient site. On this day a map was handed out, and it showed the location of the stone. Within four days afterward, the Grandfather was gone.
             
                 I grieve in the wake of this disrespect, and as a Native American who has for almost forty years attended the Spirit here, I feel personally violated. This is not simply because of the immediate material loss.  My larger concern is the enormous disconnection which is habit within the dominant culture.
             
                 It is not true to perceive two separate things, two separate time-scapes. Turtle Island, our indigenous landscape, did not suddenly go away with the incursion of European culture in this hemisphere. True Spirit is still in this place, and at a sacred site such as Aztalan, traditional ways are still being practiced. There is no rationale of "that was then, this is now." The offering stone serves the same purpose as it always has: it is a focal point of Native prayers. Aztalan has always been a place of Spirit.
             
                 And a person is not able to make the anthropological distinction, saying that something would be, for example, not culturally "middle-mississippian" (or Aztalan) but "woodland," as if to diminish it, to deny its value. To do so is to not see the arrangement and totality of the sacred hills and their consort objects. The eye is forced to view the holistic quality of the sacred landscape in order to carry an understanding of it.
             
                 To take this one step further: these hills and stones were placed here at various moments over more than a thousand years. They still have their power as sacred attributes. They are, in that regard, beyond time. And now that a piece of the landscape, in the person of the offering stone, has been removed by some recent misguided soul, once again is the world taken into imbalance. This is a truth one should know.


            --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...> wrote:
            >
            > Interesting you mention Tulum, as the shell necklace found at the
            > Princess burial is thought to have come from that city in Yucatan,
            > leading some to believe that her burial out side the city walls at
            > Aztalan WI, showed among many things, that she may have been a visitor
            > from afar. The shell beads that surrounded her body in the burial
            > were from the Tulum area according to some documents from those early
            > digs.
            >
            > By the way some believe her bones should be reinterred, instead of in
            > a box in a museum an hour away in Milwaukee.
            >
            > ted
            >
            >
            > On Jan 22, 2011, at 1:26 AM, Susan wrote:
            >
            > >
            > > Welcome to new member,Linda (Mannesah) from Oklahoma. I am sending
            > > an introductory letter which I hope is friendly and helpful.
            > >
            > > All here,
            > > A few weeks ago the subject of the Rock Lake Research Association
            > > came up; Steve Steigerwald (webmaster of Aztalan State Park), Dave
            > > Weier, MinnesotaStan, Larry J., Jim Scherz and several others live
            > > near the Madison, WI area, where at least hundreds of earthen mounds
            > > and effigies remain. Only seventeen miles east are the pyramidical
            > > shaped Aztalan mounds and nearby Rock Lake. Found another web site w/
            > > time line from the Rock Lake Research group:http://www.rocklakeresearch.com/history.htm
            > >
            > > Then this morning when checking to see what the 1 New Link was
            > > (found neither the link nor sendor)I instead delved into an entry
            > > from the Mondbuilders Link that host MinnesotaStan sent (I include a
            > > couple of passages below): the complete online text of Lapham's
            > > classic work on the mounds and other antiquities of Wisconsin
            > > (1855): http://www.library.wisc.edu/etext/Antiquities/antiqHome.html#TOC
            > > THE ANTIQUITIES OF WISCONSIN,
            > > AS
            > > SURVEYED AND DESCRIBED.
            > > BY
            > > I. A. LAPHAM
            > > CIVIL ENGINEER, ETC.,
            > > ON BEHALF OF THE AMERICAN ANTIQUARIAN SOCIETY.
            > > PUBLISHED BY THE SMITHSONIAN INSTITUTION,
            > > WASHINGTON D.C.
            > > JUNE 1855
            > > from Chapter 3, Section 2 - ANCIENT WORKS AT AND IN THE VICINITY OF
            > > AZTALAN:
            > >
            > > ....The only ancient work resembling this in its general features
            > > heretofore described, is that of Tuloom [Tulum] in Yucatan, of which
            > > an account is given by Mr. Stephens, and quoted by Mr. Squier1 .
            > > This is an inclosure of about the same dimensions, and bounded on
            > > the east by the sea; it consists of a loose stone wall, with watch-
            > > towers at the two west corners, corresponding with the two large
            > > pyramidal mounds at Aztalan, except that they are placed on the
            > > walls... [see Stephens description]
            > > ..... Do not these facts warrant the suggestion that the people of
            > > Aztalan, in Wisconsin, were a different people, in many respects,
            > > from those who erected the animal-shaped mounds? This location may
            > > possibly have been occupied by a colony of Mexicans; since we know
            > > that colonies were sometimes sent out by that singular people.1
            > >
            > > 1 Squier's Nicaragua, Vol. II.
            > >
            > > I realize these texts were written 150 years ago and considerably
            > > more scientific data has been added to the larger historical and
            > > archaelogical records since then. Yet I have long wondered why
            > > frequent, long-term, likely two way diffusion-(via travel, trade,
            > > genetic, etc.) by the mound/pyramid builders between the Mississippi
            > > Riverways and Aztalan/the Yucatan and beyond is considered a stretch
            > > of the imagination and/or lacking substantiative evidence. I'd be
            > > more surprised--and it seems to me an insulting, undermining of the
            > > cultures and peoples---to believe that no contact took place between
            > > these vast regions and cultural groups. Especially taking into
            > > consideration the proficient abilities of watercraft construction
            > > and navigation by ancient, aboriginal peoples living/navigating
            > > along interconnecting water routes within and between the
            > > Americas. And pondering countless reasons human beings the world
            > > 'round have always needed, wanted, even curiously desired to travel
            > > beyond ones boundaries, clan, and 'own comfortable kind'.
            > >
            > > Nevertheless, I am grateful folks from this group are making such
            > > inquiries and inter-/intra-continental travels. It is also great to
            > > see fairly frequent, incoming members to our group. Please keep
            > > posting about ancient or significant waterways nearest your home,
            > > or your family's places of origin ...
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >

          • Susan
            Sent by a non-member observer who does not have Posting privileges, this seems to be the origin of the name Aztalan to the once-pyramid shaped mound.
            Message 5 of 7 , Jan 22, 2011

              Sent by a non-member observer  who does not have Posting privileges, this seems to be the origin of the name Aztalan to the once-pyramid shaped mound.  Suggests perhaps too names such as Tyranena Park (recently Tyranena Brewery!).  I have seen various spellings of Tyranena when exploring shorelines, seas, and deep ceynote caves in the Yucatan Peninsula, near the Tulum ruins.  (I am invited to a possibly week long birthday party on 12-12-12 at the Tulum ruins via  friends I met from all over the world when helping with the 2012 Prophets Conference in Cancun last winter. Travel prices will likely be dirt 'cheap' because of public fear of 12-21-2012 disasters :)

               Also in the following twp links is the first mention I have seen of "Aztalan brick" and details indicating that most of what remain today are reconstructions.  Fortunately, articles and web sites as the following, plus surveys, reports of professional investigations by multi-disciplinary teams of archaelogist, geologists, and others working together will continue to get to larger, more comprehensive truths and  layers upon layers of culture often within many sites along significant ancient waterways.   Over thousands rather than hundreds of years in time.   Such as the Miami Circle-Bay of Biscayne...and Aztalan.  One of the sites shows photos of the Princess Mound, remains, and further complications surrounding this site.  I continue to be indebted to Jim Stevens for his letter and will keep it close to me.  Thank you Steve Steigerwald.  Please feel free to post here as I am only an infrequent visitor to Aztlalan and know only what I hear, see, find on the Internet in making interconnections with people, places and resources which may shed light onto not just the more recent historic past, but very ancient past.  Which to me seems at least as navigatable, and sometimes astoundingly remarkable when considering surveys and  evidences of brilliant mathematical patterns, alignments, and design that links 'heaven and earth' to that of humankind.

              From Wisconsin Geneological Trails group:    http://genealogytrails.com/wis/jefferson/Aztalan.html     and from the Friends of Aztalan State Park group: http://www.orgsites.com/wi/aztalan/_pgg9.php3  (Steve Steigerwald-is the latter one of your links?)

              In '1836, N. F. Hyer committed the first rough survey of the site, publishing the discovery in the Milwaukie Advertiser of January 1837. According to Lapham: 

              "The name Aztalan was given to this place by Mr. Hyer, because, according to Humboldt, the Aztecs, or ancient inhabitants of Mexico, had a tradition that their ancestors came from a country at the north, which they called Aztalan; and the possibility that these may have been remains of their occupancy, suggested the idea of restoring the name. It is made up of two Mexican words, atl, water, and an, near; and the country was probably so named from its proximity to large bodies of water. Hence the natural inference that the country about these great lakes was the ancient residence of the Aztecs."

              and from the second account:

              Nathaniel F. Hyer gave the name "Aztalan" to the site the pioneers called the "Ancient City." The truncated pyramidal mounds within a stockade on the banks of the Crawfish River seemed to be the site described in an Aztec legend. Reported by Baron Alexander von Humboldt, an early student of Indian antiquities, the legend said the Aztecs had come from a land by flowing waters far to the north of their Mexican home.




              Hyer wrote that "We are determined to preserve these ruins from being ruined." However, in 1838, President Martin Van Buren refused a request by Massachusetts statesman Edward Everett to withdraw the site from public sale, and the site was sold for $22. In the following years, the surface was plowed, the mounds were leveled for easier farming, pottery shards and
              "Aztalan brick" were hauled away by the wagonload to fill in potholes in township roads, and souvenir hunters took numerous artifacts.

               

              Anyone visiting the site now needs to consider the possibilites again of layers of peoples visiting, dwelling, constructing these sites, as well as the admirable reconstruction and preservation efforts.  Aside from the physical empirical evidence, I listen too, to the legends, and look to the maps, terraine and signs where ancient and early historic waterways once interconnected many peoples from distances near and far.

              Susan .... "The human mind is designed to be empowered by age rather than enfeebled by it" (glad we are empowering our minds together within associations such as this, folks)

               

               

               

               


              > http://www.library.wisc.edu/etext/Antiquities/antiqHome.html#TOC


              > THE ANTIQUITIES OF WISCONSIN,
              > AS
              > SURVEYED AND DESCRIBED.
              > BY
              > I. A. LAPHAM
              > CIVIL ENGINEER, ETC.,
              > ON BEHALF OF THE AMERICAN ANTIQUARIAN SOCIETY.
              > PUBLISHED BY THE SMITHSONIAN INSTITUTION,
              > WASHINGTON D.C.
              > JUNE 1855 from Chapter 3, Section 2 - ANCIENT WORKS AT AND IN THE
              > VICINITY OF AZTALAN: ....The only ancient work resembling this in its
              > general features heretofore described, is that of Tuloom [Tulum] in
              > Yucatan, of which an account is given by Mr. Stephens, and quoted by Mr.
              > Squier1 . This is an inclosure of about the same dimensions, and bounded
              > on the east by the sea; it consists of a loose stone wall, with
              > watch-towers at the two west corners, corresponding with the two large
              > pyramidal mounds at Aztalan, except that they are placed on the walls...
              > [see Stephens description]
              > ..... Do not these facts warrant the suggestion that the people of
              > Aztalan, in Wisconsin, were a different people, in many respects, from
              > those who erected the animal-shaped mounds? This location may possibly
              > have been occupied by a colony of Mexicans; since we know that colonies
              > were sometimes sent out by that singular people.1 1 Squier's
              > Nicaragua, Vol. II.
              >
              > I realize these texts were written 150 years ago and considerably more
              > scientific data has been added to the larger historical and
              > archaelogical records since then. Yet I have long wondered why
              > frequent, long-term, likely two way diffusion-(via travel, trade,
              > genetic, etc.) by the mound/pyramid builders between the Mississippi
              > Riverways and Aztalan/the Yucatan and beyond is considered a stretch of
              > the imagination and/or lacking substantiative evidence. I'd be more
              > surprised--and it seems to me an insulting, undermining of the cultures
              > and peoples---to believe that no contact took place between these vast
              > regions and cultural groups. Especially taking into consideration the
              > proficient abilities of watercraft construction and navigation by
              > ancient, aboriginal peoples living/navigating along interconnecting
              > water routes within and between the Americas. And pondering countless
              > reasons human beings the world 'round have always needed, wanted, even
              > curiously desired to travel beyond ones boundaries, clan, and 'own
              > comfortable kind'.
              >
              > Nevertheless, I am grateful folks from this group are making such
              > inquiries and inter-/intra-continental travels. It is also great to see
              > fairly frequent, incoming members to our group. Please keep posting
              > about ancient or significant waterways nearest your home, or your
              > family's places of origin ...
              >

            • Steven Steigerwald
              Oh Yes, Good stuff! you might like more! Steve/Beaver Steigerwald The Wisconsin Archeologist, Vol. 5 No. 4, September, 1926 A time capsule of Lake Mills
              Message 6 of 7 , Jan 22, 2011
                Oh Yes, Good stuff! you might like more!
                Steve/Beaver Steigerwald
                 
                The Wisconsin Archeologist, Vol. 5 No. 4, September, 1926
                A time capsule of Lake Mills geography at the time and a great resource for locating Indian mounds, many maps. You need to page in about 60 pages, the booklet is entitled Rock Lake.
                 
                http://www.whylegendary.com/why-legendary/legends-of-lake-mills/the-old-legends/

                 

                To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                From: beldingenglish@...
                Date: Sat, 22 Jan 2011 19:23:29 +0000
                Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] I A Lapham survey + more on ancient Aztalan Mounds and origin of name

                 

                Sent by a non-member observer  who does not have Posting privileges, this seems to be the origin of the name Aztalan to the once-pyramid shaped mound.  Suggests perhaps too names such as Tyranena Park (recently Tyranena Brewery!).  I have seen various spellings of Tyranena when exploring shorelines, seas, and deep ceynote caves in the Yucatan Peninsula, near the Tulum ruins.  (I am invited to a possibly week long birthday party on 12-12-12 at the Tulum ruins via  friends I met from all over the world when helping with the 2012 Prophets Conference in Cancun last winter. Travel prices will likely be dirt 'cheap' because of public fear of 12-21-2012 disasters :)
                 Also in the following twp links is the first mention I have seen of "Aztalan brick" and details indicating that most of what remain today are reconstructions.  Fortunately, articles and web sites as the following, plus surveys, reports of professional investigations by multi-disciplinary teams of archaelogist, geologists, and others working together will continue to get to larger, more comprehensive truths and  layers upon layers of culture often within many sites along significant ancient waterways.   Over thousands rather than hundreds of years in time.   Such as the Miami Circle-Bay of Biscayne...and Aztalan.  One of the sites shows photos of the Princess Mound, remains, and further complications surrounding this site.  I continue to be indebted to Jim Stevens for his letter and will keep it close to me.  Thank you Steve Steigerwald.  Please feel free to post here as I am only an infrequent visitor to Aztlalan and know only what I hear, see, find on the Internet in making interconnections with people, places and resources which may shed light onto not just the more recent historic past, but very ancient past.  Which to me seems at least as navigatable, and sometimes astoundingly remarkable when considering surveys and  evidences of brilliant mathematical patterns, alignments, and design that links 'heaven and earth' to that of humankind.
                From Wisconsin Geneological Trails group:    http://genealogytrails.com/wis/jefferson/Aztalan.html     and from the Friends of Aztalan State Park group: http://www.orgsites.com/wi/aztalan/_pgg9.php3  (Steve Steigerwald-is the latter one of your links?)

                In '1836, N. F. Hyer committed the first rough survey of the site, publishing the discovery in the Milwaukie Advertiser of January 1837. According to Lapham: 

                "The name Aztalan was given to this place by Mr. Hyer, because, according to Humboldt, the Aztecs, or ancient inhabitants of Mexico, had a tradition that their ancestors came from a country at the north, which they called Aztalan; and the possibility that these may have been remains of their occupancy, suggested the idea of restoring the name. It is made up of two Mexican words, atl, water, and an, near; and the country was probably so named from its proximity to large bodies of water. Hence the natural inference that the country about these great lakes was the ancient residence of the Aztecs."

                and from the second account:

                Nathaniel F. Hyer gave the name "Aztalan" to the site the pioneers called the "Ancient City." The truncated pyramidal mounds within a stockade on the banks of the Crawfish River seemed to be the site described in an Aztec legend. Reported by Baron Alexander von Humboldt, an early student of Indian antiquities, the legend said the Aztecs had come from a land by flowing waters far to the north of their Mexican home.




                Hyer wrote that "We are determined to preserve these ruins from being ruined." However, in 1838, President Martin Van Buren refused a request by Massachusetts statesman Edward Everett to withdraw the site from public sale, and the site was sold for $22. In the following years, the surface was plowed, the mounds were leveled for easier farming, pottery shards and
                "Aztalan brick" were hauled away by the wagonload to fill in potholes in township roads, and souvenir hunters took numerous artifacts.
                 

                Anyone visiting the site now needs to consider the possibilites again of layers of peoples visiting, dwelling, constructing these sites, as well as the admirable reconstruction and preservation efforts.  Aside from the physical empirical evidence, I listen too, to the legends, and look to the maps, terraine and signs where ancient and early historic waterways once interconnected many peoples from distances near and far.
                Susan .... "The human mind is designed to be empowered by age rather than enfeebled by it" (glad we are empowering our minds together within associations such as this, folks)
                 
                 
                 
                 

                > http://www.library.wisc.edu/etext/Antiquities/antiqHome.html#TOC

                > THE ANTIQUITIES OF WISCONSIN,
                > AS
                > SURVEYED AND DESCRIBED.
                > BY
                > I. A. LAPHAM
                > CIVIL ENGINEER, ETC.,
                > ON BEHALF OF THE AMERICAN ANTIQUARIAN SOCIETY.
                > PUBLISHED BY THE SMITHSONIAN INSTITUTION,
                > WASHINGTON D.C.
                > JUNE 1855 from Chapter 3, Section 2 - ANCIENT WORKS AT AND IN THE
                > VICINITY OF AZTALAN: ....The only ancient work resembling this in its
                > general features heretofore described, is that of Tuloom [Tulum] in
                > Yucatan, of which an account is given by Mr. Stephens, and quoted by Mr.
                > Squier1 . This is an inclosure of about the same dimensions, and bounded
                > on the east by the sea; it consists of a loose stone wall, with
                > watch-towers at the two west corners, corresponding with the two large
                > pyramidal mounds at Aztalan, except that they are placed on the walls...
                > [see Stephens description]
                > ..... Do not these facts warrant the suggestion that the people of
                > Aztalan, in Wisconsin, were a different people, in many respects, from
                > those who erected the animal-shaped mounds? This location may possibly
                > have been occupied by a colony of Mexicans; since we know that colonies
                > were sometimes sent out by that singular people.1 1 Squier's
                > Nicaragua, Vol. II.
                >
                > I realize these texts were written 150 years ago and considerably more
                > scientific data has been added to the larger historical and
                > archaelogical records since then. Yet I have long wondered why
                > frequent, long-term, likely two way diffusion-(via travel, trade,
                > genetic, etc.) by the mound/pyramid builders between the Mississippi
                > Riverways and Aztalan/the Yucatan and beyond is considered a stretch of
                > the imagination and/or lacking substantiative evidence. I'd be more
                > surprised--and it seems to me an insulting, undermining of the cultures
                > and peoples---to believe that no contact took place between these vast
                > regions and cultural groups. Especially taking into consideration the
                > proficient abilities of watercraft construction and navigation by
                > ancient, aboriginal peoples living/navigating along interconnecting
                > water routes within and between the Americas. And pondering countless
                > reasons human beings the world 'round have always needed, wanted, even
                > curiously desired to travel beyond ones boundaries, clan, and 'own
                > comfortable kind'.
                >
                > Nevertheless, I am grateful folks from this group are making such
                > inquiries and inter-/intra-continental travels. It is also great to see
                > fairly frequent, incoming members to our group. Please keep posting
                > about ancient or significant waterways nearest your home, or your
                > family's places of origin ...
                >


              • Susan
                Interesting, ambiguous paragraph about Aztalan s origins from the current Aztalan Mounds Calendar of Events. The state park is located west of Madison,
                Message 7 of 7 , Jul 7, 2013
                  Interesting,  ambiguous paragraph about Aztalan's  origins from the current Aztalan Mounds Calendar of Events.  The state park is located west of Madison, Wisconsin. a must-see if in that area of Wisconsin but if you really want to hear some side-stepping or double-talk, go on a $2 tour of the museum and grounds.
                  At least this brochure now acknowledges "possible Mexican influence". 
                  I tacked this message to a thread of posts re: Latham and Hyer mentioned a few years ago at this site on this subject. 
                  SE 

                  ..." Sunday August 17, 2:00pm: The site of Aztalan at Aztalan State Park was named by Nathanial Hyer in 1837 for the place the Aztec people of Mexico identified as their original homeland. Although the site has nothing to do with the Aztecs, some scholars believe that the broader culture, the Mississippian, had contacts with ancient Mexican societies. In honor of the name and possible Mexican influence, the Friends of Aztalan State Park have once again invited the spectacular Aztec dancers of the Ballet Folklorico de Mexico to perform at Aztalan State Park. The event itself is free but is being used as fund raiser for the planned new visitor's center at the park, so donations will be gladly accepted. A Wisconsin state park vehicle sticker is required but can be purchased at the park." 

                  http://i94.biz/aztalan/aztalan.html

                  Susan English -- from my iPad



                  --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan" wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  > Sent by a non-member observer who does not have Posting privileges,
                  > this seems to be the origin of the name Aztalan to the once-pyramid
                  > shaped mound. Suggests perhaps too names such as Tyranena Park
                  > (recently Tyranena Brewery!). I have seen various spellings of Tyranena
                  > when exploring shorelines, seas, and deep ceynote caves in the Yucatan
                  > Peninsula, near the Tulum ruins. (I am invited to a possibly week long
                  > birthday party on 12-12-12 at the Tulum ruins via friends I met from
                  > all over the world when helping with the 2012 Prophets Conference in
                  > Cancun last winter. Travel prices will likely be dirt 'cheap' because of
                  > public fear of 12-21-2012 disasters :)
                  >
                  > Also in the following twp links is the first mention I have seen of
                  > "Aztalan brick" and details indicating that most of what remain today
                  > are reconstructions. Fortunately, articles and web sites as the
                  > following, plus surveys, reports of professional investigations by
                  > multi-disciplinary teams of archaelogist, geologists, and others working
                  > together will continue to get to larger, more comprehensive truths and
                  > layers upon layers of culture often within many sites along significant
                  > ancient waterways. Over thousands rather than hundreds of years in
                  > time. Such as the Miami Circle-Bay of Biscayne...and Aztalan. One of
                  > the sites shows photos of the Princess Mound, remains, and further
                  > complications surrounding this site. I continue to be indebted to Jim
                  > Stevens for his letter and will keep it close to me. Thank you Steve
                  > Steigerwald. Please feel free to post here as I am only an infrequent
                  > visitor to Aztlalan and know only what I hear, see, find on the Internet
                  > in making interconnections with people, places and resources which may
                  > shed light onto not just the more recent historic past, but very ancient
                  > past. Which to me seems at least as navigatable, and sometimes
                  > astoundingly remarkable when considering surveys and evidences of
                  > brilliant mathematical patterns, alignments, and design that links
                  > 'heaven and earth' to that of humankind.
                  >
                  > From Wisconsin Geneological Trails group:
                  > http://genealogytrails.com/wis/jefferson/Aztalan.html
                  > and from
                  > the Friends of Aztalan State Park group:
                  > http://www.orgsites.com/wi/aztalan/_pgg9.php3
                  > (Steve Steigerwald-is
                  > the latter one of your links?)
                  >
                  > In '1836, N. F. Hyer committed the first rough survey of the site,
                  > publishing the discovery in the Milwaukie Advertiser of January 1837.
                  > According to Lapham:
                  >
                  > "The name Aztalan was given to this place by Mr. Hyer, because,
                  > according to Humboldt, the Aztecs, or ancient inhabitants of Mexico, had
                  > a tradition that their ancestors came from a country at the north, which
                  > they called Aztalan; and the possibility that these may have been
                  > remains of their occupancy, suggested the idea of restoring the name. It
                  > is made up of two Mexican words, atl, water, and an, near; and the
                  > country was probably so named from its proximity to large bodies of
                  > water. Hence the natural inference that the country about these great
                  > lakes was the ancient residence of the Aztecs."
                  >
                  > and from the second account:
                  >
                  > Nathaniel F. Hyer gave the name "Aztalan" to the site the pioneers
                  > called the "Ancient City." The truncated pyramidal mounds within a
                  > stockade on the banks of the Crawfish River seemed to be the site
                  > described in an Aztec legend. Reported by Baron Alexander von Humboldt,
                  > an early student of Indian antiquities, the legend said the Aztecs had
                  > come from a land by flowing waters far to the north of their Mexican
                  > home.
                  >
                  >
                  > Hyer wrote that "We are determined to preserve these ruins from being
                  > ruined." However, in 1838, President Martin Van Buren refused a request
                  > by Massachusetts statesman Edward Everett to withdraw the site from
                  > public sale, and the site was sold for $22. In the following years, the
                  > surface was plowed, the mounds were leveled for easier farming, pottery
                  > shards and "Aztalan brick" were hauled away by the wagonload to fill in
                  > potholes in township roads, and souvenir hunters took numerous
                  > artifacts.
                  >
                  > Anyone visiting the site now needs to consider the possibilites again of
                  > layers of peoples visiting, dwelling, constructing these sites, as well
                  > as the admirable reconstruction and preservation efforts. Aside from
                  > the physical empirical evidence, I listen too, to the legends, and look
                  > to the maps, terraine and signs where ancient and early historic
                  > waterways once interconnected many peoples from distances near and far.
                  >
                  > Susan .... "The human mind is designed to be empowered by age rather
                  > than enfeebled by it" (glad we are empowering our minds together within
                  > associations such as this, folks)
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > > http://www.library.wisc.edu/etext/Antiquities/antiqHome.html#TOC
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > > THE ANTIQUITIES OF WISCONSIN,
                  > > AS
                  > > SURVEYED AND DESCRIBED.
                  > > BY
                  > > I. A. LAPHAM
                  > > CIVIL ENGINEER, ETC.,
                  > > ON BEHALF OF THE AMERICAN ANTIQUARIAN SOCIETY.
                  > > PUBLISHED BY THE SMITHSONIAN INSTITUTION,
                  > > WASHINGTON D.C.
                  > > JUNE 1855 from Chapter 3, Section 2 - ANCIENT WORKS AT AND IN THE
                  > > VICINITY OF AZTALAN: ....The only ancient work resembling this in its
                  > > general features heretofore described, is that of Tuloom [Tulum] in
                  > > Yucatan, of which an account is given by Mr. Stephens, and quoted by
                  > Mr.
                  > > Squier1 . This is an inclosure of about the same dimensions, and
                  > bounded
                  > > on the east by the sea; it consists of a loose stone wall, with
                  > > watch-towers at the two west corners, corresponding with the two large
                  > > pyramidal mounds at Aztalan, except that they are placed on the
                  > walls...
                  > > [see Stephens description]
                  > > ..... Do not these facts warrant the suggestion that the people of
                  > > Aztalan, in Wisconsin, were a different people, in many respects, from
                  > > those who erected the animal-shaped mounds? This location may possibly
                  > > have been occupied by a colony of Mexicans; since we know that
                  > colonies
                  > > were sometimes sent out by that singular people.1 1 Squier's
                  > > Nicaragua, Vol. II.
                  > >
                  > > I realize these texts were written 150 years ago and considerably more
                  > > scientific data has been added to the larger historical and
                  > > archaelogical records since then. Yet I have long wondered why
                  > > frequent, long-term, likely two way diffusion-(via travel, trade,
                  > > genetic, etc.) by the mound/pyramid builders between the Mississippi
                  > > Riverways and Aztalan/the Yucatan and beyond is considered a stretch
                  > of
                  > > the imagination and/or lacking substantiative evidence. I'd be more
                  > > surprised--and it seems to me an insulting, undermining of the
                  > cultures
                  > > and peoples---to believe that no contact took place between these vast
                  > > regions and cultural groups. Especially taking into consideration the
                  > > proficient abilities of watercraft construction and navigation by
                  > > ancient, aboriginal peoples living/navigating along interconnecting
                  > > water routes within and between the Americas. And pondering countless
                  > > reasons human beings the world 'round have always needed, wanted, even
                  > > curiously desired to travel beyond ones boundaries, clan, and 'own
                  > > comfortable kind'.
                  > >
                  > > Nevertheless, I am grateful folks from this group are making such
                  > > inquiries and inter-/intra-continental travels. It is also great to
                  > see
                  > > fairly frequent, incoming members to our group. Please keep posting
                  > > about ancient or significant waterways nearest your home, or your
                  > > family's places of origin ...
                  > >
                  >
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