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Re: Cahokia Copper Casting

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  • james m clark jr
    Francisco the last I checked the colleges and univerities in the U.S. seemed to be about half & half so you would both be right. be well, jamey
    Message 1 of 17 , Jan 15, 2011
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      Francisco the last I checked the colleges and univerities in the U.S. seemed to be about half & half so you would both be right.

      be well,
      jamey

      --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Francisco J. González <guajataca01@...> wrote:
      >
      > I do not understand Mr. Conner's comments about "Most American archaeologists are completely clueless when it comes to metallurgy" when mainstream archaeologists had for years pioneered the study of pre-1492 metallurgy in the New World. There is no question that Indian cultures, from Arizona to Argentina, were sophisticated metal workers, who worked on copper, silver, bronze, platinum and could combine different metals using very sophisticated techniques.
      > See examples of this work at the link below.
      >
      >
      > http://people.uncw.edu/simmonss/The%20Maya%20Archaeometallurgy%20Project.htm
      >
      > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, William Conner <conner6343@> wrote:
      > >
      > > Since Cahokia seems to be a hot topic now in Waterways, I should mention that evidence of copper casting was found there years ago by archaeologist Gregory Perino and I discuss this in my book "Iron Age America."  Also, in my book I discuss what I believe is a mold for casting a copper celt was found at the ancient Spruce HIll fort, a site 12 miles southwest of my home town, Chillicothe, Ohio. 
      > >  
      > > Over the years I have discussed prehistoric copper casting with several metallurgists, and they all say all large solid copper objects found at prehistoric sites in North America could have only be made by casting!  Most American archeaologists are completely clueless when it comes to metallurgy and they seem unwilling to accept the opinon of those who know better, the metalurgists!
      > >  
      > > William Conner 
      > >   
      > >
      >
    • bigalemc2
      William - Your mention of archeologists not wanting to work with metallurgists rings true with me. Just last night a friend who has a daughter in the
      Message 2 of 17 , Jan 16, 2011
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        William -

        Your mention of archeologists not wanting to work with metallurgists
        rings true with me.

        Just last night a friend who has a daughter in the archeology program at
        UCLA told me the daughter was aghast that some of the archeologists
        want to distance themselves completely from scientists.

        Yes, you read that right: Archeologists want to get science out of
        archeology. At least some do.

        If that sounds an awful lot like the Creationism-Evolution argument, it
        has nothing to do with it, but it sure sounds like the same kind of
        thinking (sans the religion), doesn't it?

        I can tell you straight out that for about two years I have been telling
        anyone who will listen that I don't think archeologists are scientists.
        (I think they are historians, actually.) I do not mean to insult those
        here who are archeologists. Historian is not like flipping hamburgers
        or washing dishes or pushing a beat-up shopping cart full of aluminum
        cans.

        Yes, archeologists use the results of Carbon14 tests - but they do not
        do the tests themselves. Labratory scientists do and are paid for
        doing. The operators of the steel strap painting line at one of my old
        palces of employment used to send out samples for testing to a lab - for
        hardness and for ductility and for break strength. The operators were
        not scientists themselves. They only sent the samples off and then got
        them back and looked at the numbers and logged them and marked the
        batches of steel as "Passed" or "Rejected." The scientists were several
        miles away. Similarly the archeologists who get C14 results cannot
        point to the C14 tests they contract out as evidence of them being
        scientists.

        How about the way they sift through sites and record what they find?
        Recording what something is and where it was found doesn't make one a
        scientist. That is just following procedures. Collecting evidence at a
        crime scene is not in itself science. It is collecting artifacts that
        can be tested, but it is not testing in and of itself. Again, those
        things are sent to scientists who do the actual lab tests. Does what
        they do require training? Yes, but training in and of itself cannot be
        construed as science. It is the preparation for scientists to do their
        work.

        So what about the measuring? Doesn't that make them scientists? If the
        measurements are taken to be processed and then to make some sort of
        falsifiable prediction, yes, they are science. But if they are taken to
        draw up diagrams for illustrative purposes, that is not science. Which
        is done by archeologists? In the archeological papers I've seen, I've
        seen graphs of C14 and other lab-tested data. And I've seen graphs
        that locate artifacts diagrammatically at depths and locations. I've
        seen ones that diagrammatically display and label the depths of a site,
        but that is all only illustrative, not quantitative.

        Quantitative equals science. Qualitative is not science. Quantitative
        is numbers that can be processed with other numbers to determine trends
        and curve fits that eventually can predict some result - and which
        result can be compared to reality. To the degree the prediction comes
        true, then the interpretation of the information is considered science.
        Of it fails to predict correctly, it is "falsified," and the
        interpretation is seen to have little or no merit.

        Qualitative means, essentially, things or features other than
        quantitative - having to do with qualities, like style, shape,
        sleekness, patterns, hair color, stone-vs-wood (for example),
        male-vs-female, mammal-vs-reptile, plant-vs-animal. One qualitative
        "measurement" would be the judging of gymnasts at the Olympics. Each
        judge looks for certain precision of the movements and expects them to
        be done "correctly" and with a certain "amount" of confidence and
        solidity. Scores are given based on comparison to that judge's
        assessment of each of those factors, none of which have been measured,
        but each of which is still (amazingly) assigned a number, which number
        then contributes to the overall "score" of the individual or group.
        Compare that to the electronic stopwatches and the measuring devices
        used in the javelin, hammer throw and shot put. The numbers in the
        latter types of competition do not come out of someone's head, but are
        on a tape measure or come from a clock.

        Very little of archeological work is done quantitatively. Yes, there
        are numbers, as in dates. There are measurements of bone lengths, but
        that aspect is more for determining gender and giving a general idea of
        age. Age is most precisely given by measured features of the teeth.
        Mostly it comes from qualitative features like coronal sutures, body
        height, the number of teeth, and the general condition of teeth - all of
        which are compared to some listed standards. Except for height, those
        are all qualitative, and height is a minor feature that anyone trained
        for it can do - it doesn't take scientist and it really doesn't help in
        predicting.

        And yes, the volume of cranial cavities is measured - bit is it done by
        the archeologists, or is it handed over to a lab?

        The one issue that made me begin to think about this was how much
        interpretation archeologists do in their work, on often flimsy and very
        sparse evidence. At Cahokia they even admit how little evidence there
        is, and every archeologist who tries to make sense of what the evidence
        tell them comes up with a different story. Science is not about 5, 10,
        or 20 different people looking at gymnasts or skaters or a handful of
        evidence and then seeing different things in it. Science is where
        everyone reads the evidence one way, because that way has been proven to
        predict correctly. When interpretation comes in, science walks out the
        back door.

        I may not be correct, but all this is evidence that archeologists lean
        on scientists to test or measure for quantifiable data, and that they
        interpret. But do they do science themselves?

        Wow, I did that without once referring to Chris Dunn and how
        Egyptologists insist that granite can be cut with copper chisels, and
        that finely finished and incredibly flat and consistent surfaces are
        made with people dropping round granite balls to chip stone.

        And I did it without mentioning that they claim that a few thousand guys
        running around 13,000 years go, in loincloths and with atlatls and
        spears, managed to find every mammoth, saber-toothed tiger, giant sloth
        and American horse within 4-5 million square miles and kill them. For
        what? Food? Talk about wasteful ecological practices. And forget the
        idea of the noble savage.

        And I did it without a full discussion of the Dead Sea Scrolls and
        Qumran, both of which ended up not being what the archeologists
        (actually, in this case, religious hacks) have told us since the 1940s.

        Gotta go. I had to type this twice, since my browser suddenly closed
        out when I was in the last 3 sentences.

        Steve


        --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, William Conner
        <conner6343@...> wrote:
        >
        > Since Cahokia seems to be a hot topic now in Waterways, I should
        mention that evidence of copper casting was found there years ago by
        archaeologist Gregory Perino and I discuss this in my book "Iron Age
        America." Also, in my book I discuss what I believe is a mold for
        casting a copper celt was found at the ancient Spruce HIll fort, a site
        12 miles southwest of my home town, Chillicothe, Ohio.
        >
        > Over the years I have discussed prehistoric copper casting with
        several metallurgists, and they all say all large solid copper objects
        found at prehistoric sites in North America could have only be made by
        casting! Most American archeologists are completely clueless when it
        comes to metallurgy and they seem unwilling to accept the opinion of
        those who know better, the metallurgists!
        >
        > William Conner
        >
        >
      • Susan
        Francisco, thank you for your post, your thoughts, and inclusion of the very interesting link for the research and Maya Archeometallurgy Project going on the
        Message 3 of 17 , Jan 17, 2011
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          Francisco, thank you for your post, your thoughts, and inclusion of the very interesting link for the research and Maya Archeometallurgy Project going on the past decade on the New River Lagoon in N. Belize w/mention of earlier mapping and excavation also in Lamanai between 1974 and 1986.  A close friend was exploring riverways and coastlines last year in that area of the world.  I am again including the link Francisco sent:
           
          With so many links and popular discussion here on ancient copper, bronze, and smeltring,  I hope as this topic continues or is brought up again, that those posting will pick up this subject thread so that the earlier posts are part of new posts cascading below.  Perhaps someone might also begin a new  File under  "Ancient Smelting & Archaeometallurgy", which would be inclusive of dedicated avocational as well as professional archaeological avenues.

          My appreciation for all of the posts, and for Steve Garcia for taking the time he has again set aside to communicate his thoughts.  My mental processes and experiences may not often place me in close agreement, but he, Christopher Dunn, and UW Madison engineering professor Jim Scherz  help me----as a Social Sciences and global Peace Studies major--- to better engineer my thinking more inclusively along the lines of the physical sciences, quantifying, and 'scientific method'.  Best of all it seems to me is when there is mutual admiration and respect amongst and between all of the related academic fields and researchers.  And where dedicated lay and professional researchers work in liason to further synergize mutual efforts,  rather than in isolation or antipathy.
           
          Here at Ancient Waterways we have folks with a variety of educational, cultural, geographical and first-language backgrounds, sometimes vast differences in research avenues and opinions.  And, as our years together progress,  it is remarkable we are increasingly able to bring our thoughts, ideas, research together for examination and discussion.  I hope most enjoy the great diversity and civility among members within Posts.  And that this association provides fertile, universal ground for corresponding members to be unafraid when expressing related experiences, differences in logic and opinion ... before eighty-five of us, anyway, 'traveling' ancient global waterways.  Perhaps we are not too unlike voyagers and hosting groups who met in council  along ancient global rivers and shorelines for tens of thousands of years. 
           
          Because of all here, our membership and discussions extend beyond the 'U.S'. and Americas and what seems to be the predominant Euro-centeredness" within many of the groups and teachings within my own experience.  I applaud you that a basically un-moderated group tends to avoid competitiveness, name calling, the narrow "we vs. they" dualisms and sweeping generalizations I see elsewhere that tend to put others posting on the defensive.  Or, back to intercommunicating with their own comfortable kind elsewhere.
           
          With so many great links and popular discussion here on ancient copper, bronze, and smeltring,  I hope as this topic continues, or is brought up again later, that those posting will pick up this subject thread so that the earlier posts become part of new posts cascading below.  Perhaps someone might also begin a new File or database under  "Ancient Smelting & Archaeometallurgy", which would be inclusive of dedicated avocational as well as professional archaeological avenues.
          Susan

          --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Francisco J. González <guajataca01@...> wrote:
          >
          > I do not understand Mr. Conner's comments about "Most American archaeologists are completely clueless when it comes to metallurgy" when mainstream archaeologists had for years pioneered the study of pre-1492 metallurgy in the New World. There is no question that Indian cultures, from Arizona to Argentina, were sophisticated metal workers, who worked on copper, silver, bronze, platinum and could combine different metals using very sophisticated techniques.
          > See examples of this work at the link below.
          >
          >
          > http://people.uncw.edu/simmonss/The%20Maya%20Archaeometallurgy%20Project.htm
          >
          > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, William Conner conner6343@ wrote:
          > >
          > > Since Cahokia seems to be a hot topic now in Waterways, I should mention that evidence of copper casting was found there years ago by archaeologist Gregory Perino and I discuss this in my book "Iron Age America."  Also, in my book I discuss what I believe is a mold for casting a copper celt was found at the ancient Spruce HIll fort, a site 12 miles southwest of my home town, Chillicothe, Ohio. 
          > >  
          > > Over the years I have discussed prehistoric copper casting with several metallurgists, and they all say all large solid copper objects found at prehistoric sites in North America could have only be made by casting!  Most American archeaologists are completely clueless when it comes to metallurgy and they seem unwilling to accept the opinon of those who know better, the metalurgists!
          > >  
          > > William Conner 
          > >   
          > >
          >
        • Francisco J. González
          The paper below has several great photos of bronze and other casted metal artifacts from pre-1492 South America Technical examination of ancient South American
          Message 4 of 17 , Jan 18, 2011
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            The paper below has several great photos of bronze and other casted metal artifacts from pre-1492 South America

            Technical examination of ancient South American metals: Some examples from Colombia, Peru and Argentina

            http://www.banrepcultural.org/blaavirtual/publicacionesbanrep/bolmuseo/1998/endi4445/endi02a.htm

            The link below is to another article on the casting of platinum. The article is in Spanish, but the last few pages has some great photos of artifacts made of platiunum and gold.

            http://dialnet.unirioja.es/servlet/fichero_articulo?codigo=236413&orden=0

            ALL of these objects were created by Native American peoples on their own, relying on their own intelligence and creativity, without the need to lost Vikings, Hebrews or Celts to teach them anything!
          • james m clark jr
            Thanks Francisco, And a good point indeed! Any suggestions for groups in English in South America? perhaps I could restart a unlisted group I created called
            Message 5 of 17 , Jan 22, 2011
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              Thanks Francisco,
              And a good point indeed!

              Any suggestions for groups in English in South America?
              perhaps I could restart a unlisted group I created called
              native2native2 back in 2003 [with no members]

              To all at AWS

              However I don't get email/webmail from many groups including AWS so in the long run long after email/webmail is full, perhaps eventually deleted a link option at AWS should also be considered. I have about
              15 email from 2005 till now, none of which are group nor link related. It's a good thing that AWS is a public group as far as searching posts that we may recall cause Yahoo! isn't so good for searching posts half the time. I'm not sure if I want to search for Oz's link to his show here or in a new tab online but now that I have cable modem, and a late bloomer widows 7 I'll probably go to sleep an miss the show again... and have more time to visit my other 40 groups such as Cherokee History, AIM, and perhaps archaeo-politics I had come across a little to strong and the group just abandoned activey and interests altogether.

              be well y'all,
              jamey

              --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Francisco J. González <guajataca01@...> wrote:
              >
              > The paper below has several great photos of bronze and other casted metal artifacts from pre-1492 South America
              >
              > Technical examination of ancient South American metals: Some examples from Colombia, Peru and Argentina
              >
              > http://www.banrepcultural.org/blaavirtual/publicacionesbanrep/bolmuseo/1998/endi4445/endi02a.htm
              >
              > The link below is to another article on the casting of platinum. The article is in Spanish, but the last few pages has some great photos of artifacts made of platiunum and gold.
              >
              > http://dialnet.unirioja.es/servlet/fichero_articulo?codigo=236413&orden=0
              >
              > ALL of these objects were created by Native American peoples on their own, relying on their own intelligence and creativity, without the need to lost Vikings, Hebrews or Celts to teach them anything!
              >
            • Rick O
              Jamey, Tune in today at noon eastern for Sam Osmanagich and Bosnian Pyramids Today at 4 pm eastern for archeology news and commentary www.psn-radio.com
              Message 6 of 17 , Jan 23, 2011
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                Jamey,
                Tune in today at noon eastern for Sam Osmanagich and Bosnian Pyramids

                Today at 4 pm eastern for archeology news and commentary

                www.psn-radio.com 


                --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "james m clark jr" <jameyboy@...> wrote:
                >
                > Thanks Francisco,
                > And a good point indeed!
                >
                > Any suggestions for groups in English in South America?
                > perhaps I could restart a unlisted group I created called
                > native2native2 back in 2003 [with no members]
                >
                > To all at AWS
                >
                > However I don't get email/webmail from many groups including AWS so in the long run long after email/webmail is full, perhaps eventually deleted a link option at AWS should also be considered. I have about
                > 15 email from 2005 till now, none of which are group nor link related. It's a good thing that AWS is a public group as far as searching posts that we may recall cause Yahoo! isn't so good for searching posts half the time. I'm not sure if I want to search for Oz's link to his show here or in a new tab online but now that I have cable modem, and a late bloomer widows 7 I'll probably go to sleep an miss the show again... and have more time to visit my other 40 groups such as Cherokee History, AIM, and perhaps archaeo-politics I had come across a little to strong and the group just abandoned activey and interests altogether.
                >
                > be well y'all,
                > jamey
                >
                > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Francisco J. González guajataca01@ wrote:
                > >
                > > The paper below has several great photos of bronze and other casted metal artifacts from pre-1492 South America
                > >
                > > Technical examination of ancient South American metals: Some examples from Colombia, Peru and Argentina
                > >
                > > http://www.banrepcultural.org/blaavirtual/publicacionesbanrep/bolmuseo/1998/endi4445/endi02a.htm
                > >
                > > The link below is to another article on the casting of platinum. The article is in Spanish, but the last few pages has some great photos of artifacts made of platiunum and gold.
                > >
                > > http://dialnet.unirioja.es/servlet/fichero_articulo?codigo=236413&orden=0
                > >
                > > ALL of these objects were created by Native American peoples on their own, relying on their own intelligence and creativity, without the need to lost Vikings, Hebrews or Celts to teach them anything!
                > >
                >
              • Jeff
                Hi, can I play this stream on Windows Media Player? ... Jamey, Tune in today at noon eastern for Sam Osmanagich and Bosnian Pyramids Today at 4 pm eastern for
                Message 7 of 17 , Jan 23, 2011
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                  Hi, can I play this stream on Windows Media Player?

                  --- On Sun, 1/23/11, Rick O <ozman@...> wrote:
                  Jamey,
                  Tune in today at noon eastern for Sam Osmanagich and Bosnian Pyramids

                  Today at 4 pm eastern for archeology news and commentary

                  www.psn-radio.com 


                  --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "james m clark jr" <jameyboy@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Thanks Francisco,
                  > And a good point indeed!
                  >
                  > Any suggestions for groups in English in South America?
                  > perhaps I could restart a unlisted group I created called
                  > native2native2 back in 2003 [with no members]
                  >
                  > To all at AWS
                  >
                  > However I don't get email/webmail from many groups including AWS so in the long run long after email/webmail is full, perhaps eventually deleted a link option at AWS should also be considered. I have about
                  > 15 email from 2005 till now, none of which are group nor link related. It's a good thing that AWS is a public group as far as searching posts that we may recall cause Yahoo! isn't so good for searching posts half the time. I'm not sure if I want to search for Oz's link to his show here or in a new tab online but now that I have cable modem, and a late bloomer widows 7 I'll probably go to sleep an miss the show again... and have more time to visit my other 40 groups such as Cherokee History, AIM, and perhaps archaeo-politics I had come across a little to strong and the group just abandoned activey and interests altogether.
                  >
                  > be well y'all,
                  > jamey
                  >
                  > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Francisco J. González guajataca01@ wrote:
                  > >
                  > > The paper below has several great photos of bronze and other casted metal artifacts from pre-1492 South America
                  > >
                  > > Technical examination of ancient South American metals: Some examples from Colombia, Peru and Argentina
                  > >
                  > > http://www.banrepcultural.org/blaavirtual/publicacionesbanrep/bolmuseo/1998/endi4445/endi02a.htm
                  > >
                  > > The link below is to another article on the casting of platinum. The article is in Spanish, but the last few pages has some great photos of artifacts made of platiunum and gold.
                  > >
                  > > http://dialnet.unirioja.es/servlet/fichero_articulo?codigo=236413&orden=0
                  > >
                  > > ALL of these objects were created by Native American peoples on their own, relying on their own intelligence and creativity, without the need to lost Vikings, Hebrews or Celts to teach them anything!
                  > >
                  >

                • Jeff
                  Is Sam any relation to Donnie, or Marie Osmanagitch? Just curious? ... Jamey, Tune in today at noon eastern for Sam Osmanagich and Bosnian Pyramids Today at 4
                  Message 8 of 17 , Jan 23, 2011
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                    Is Sam any relation to Donnie, or Marie Osmanagitch?

                    Just curious?

                    --- On Sun, 1/23/11, Rick O <ozman@...> wrote:
                    Jamey,
                    Tune in today at noon eastern for Sam Osmanagich and Bosnian Pyramids

                    Today at 4 pm eastern for archeology news and commentary

                    www.psn-radio.com 


                    --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "james m clark jr" <jameyboy@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Thanks Francisco,
                    > And a good point indeed!
                    >
                    > Any suggestions for groups in English in South America?
                    > perhaps I could restart a unlisted group I created called
                    > native2native2 back in 2003 [with no members]
                    >
                    > To all at AWS
                    >
                    > However I don't get email/webmail from many groups including AWS so in the long run long after email/webmail is full, perhaps eventually deleted a link option at AWS should also be considered. I have about
                    > 15 email from 2005 till now, none of which are group nor link related. It's a good thing that AWS is a public group as far as searching posts that we may recall cause Yahoo! isn't so good for searching posts half the time. I'm not sure if I want to search for Oz's link to his show here or in a new tab online but now that I have cable modem, and a late bloomer widows 7 I'll probably go to sleep an miss the show again... and have more time to visit my other 40 groups such as Cherokee History, AIM, and perhaps archaeo-politics I had come across a little to strong and the group just abandoned activey and interests altogether.
                    >
                    > be well y'all,
                    > jamey
                    >
                    > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Francisco J. González guajataca01@ wrote:
                    > >
                    > > The paper below has several great photos of bronze and other casted metal artifacts from pre-1492 South America
                    > >
                    > > Technical examination of ancient South American metals: Some examples from Colombia, Peru and Argentina
                    > >
                    > > http://www.banrepcultural.org/blaavirtual/publicacionesbanrep/bolmuseo/1998/endi4445/endi02a.htm
                    > >
                    > > The link below is to another article on the casting of platinum. The article is in Spanish, but the last few pages has some great photos of artifacts made of platiunum and gold.
                    > >
                    > > http://dialnet.unirioja.es/servlet/fichero_articulo?codigo=236413&orden=0
                    > >
                    > > ALL of these objects were created by Native American peoples on their own, relying on their own intelligence and creativity, without the need to lost Vikings, Hebrews or Celts to teach them anything!
                    > >
                    >



                  • james m clark jr
                    Sorry Oz man, I ve been dealing with diffusion and sterotype issues in East & West Africa and been looking for a friend off and on that maybe missing in the
                    Message 9 of 17 , Jan 28, 2011
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                      Sorry Oz man,

                      I've been dealing with diffusion and sterotype issues in East & West Africa and been looking for a friend off and on that maybe missing in the Orlando area for nearly a year now if he hasn't relocated. Hopefully he is struggling to make ends meet and hopefully write when he can although it has been nearly a year since I've had any word.

                      At any rate, is this a wkly thing with Mr. Osmanagich?

                      be well,
                      jamey



                      --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Rick O" <ozman@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Jamey,
                      > Tune in today at noon eastern for Sam Osmanagich and Bosnian Pyramids
                      >
                      > Today at 4 pm eastern for archeology news and commentary
                      >
                      > www.psn-radio.com <http://www.psn-radio.com>
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "james m clark jr"
                      > <jameyboy@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Thanks Francisco,
                      > > And a good point indeed!
                      > >
                      > > Any suggestions for groups in English in South America?
                      > > perhaps I could restart a unlisted group I created called
                      > > native2native2 back in 2003 [with no members]
                      > >
                      > > To all at AWS
                      > >
                      > > However I don't get email/webmail from many groups including AWS so in
                      > the long run long after email/webmail is full, perhaps eventually
                      > deleted a link option at AWS should also be considered. I have about
                      > > 15 email from 2005 till now, none of which are group nor link related.
                      > It's a good thing that AWS is a public group as far as searching posts
                      > that we may recall cause Yahoo! isn't so good for searching posts half
                      > the time. I'm not sure if I want to search for Oz's link to his show
                      > here or in a new tab online but now that I have cable modem, and a late
                      > bloomer widows 7 I'll probably go to sleep an miss the show again... and
                      > have more time to visit my other 40 groups such as Cherokee History,
                      > AIM, and perhaps archaeo-politics I had come across a little to strong
                      > and the group just abandoned activey and interests altogether.
                      > >
                      > > be well y'all,
                      > > jamey
                      > >
                      > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Francisco J.
                      > González guajataca01@ wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > The paper below has several great photos of bronze and other casted
                      > metal artifacts from pre-1492 South America
                      > > >
                      > > > Technical examination of ancient South American metals: Some
                      > examples from Colombia, Peru and Argentina
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > http://www.banrepcultural.org/blaavirtual/publicacionesbanrep/bolmuseo/1\
                      > 998/endi4445/endi02a.htm
                      > > >
                      > > > The link below is to another article on the casting of platinum. The
                      > article is in Spanish, but the last few pages has some great photos of
                      > artifacts made of platiunum and gold.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > http://dialnet.unirioja.es/servlet/fichero_articulo?codigo=236413&orden=\
                      > 0
                      > > >
                      > > > ALL of these objects were created by Native American peoples on
                      > their own, relying on their own intelligence and creativity, without the
                      > need to lost Vikings, Hebrews or Celts to teach them anything!
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >
                    • james m clark jr
                      Hey Jeff, I ve never heard of this guy.. he isn t in any of my groups that I know of. But if I have, he doesn t ring a bell. Seen the article, it s still
                      Message 10 of 17 , Jan 28, 2011
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                        Hey Jeff,

                        I've never heard of this guy.. he isn't in any of my groups that I know of. But if I have, he doesn't ring a bell. Seen the article, it's still there. My volume was really loud in the AM and I got a ear full of MJ... Hha! Didn't even look to see if stream was there still or on a bit turrent maybe.

                        More than likely a little late, but you shouldn't need wmp for stream that's mainly for cds plus there should be options at the site. If it's a small window try f11 key to switch on/off on keyboard may help a tad bit. other than that you have the "zoom" option that I even forget about sometimes. As far as win7 if you have it you may know more than I do. I really haven't needed to use or locate options and some are on this new keyboard I'm slowly geting use too..

                        be well,
                        jamey

                        --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Jeff <quarefremeruntgentes7@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi, can I play this stream on Windows Media Player?
                        >
                        > --- On Sun, 1/23/11, Rick O <ozman@...> wrote:
                        > Jamey,
                        > Tune in today at noon eastern for Sam Osmanagich and Bosnian Pyramids
                        >
                        > Today at 4 pm eastern for archeology news and commentary
                        >
                        > www.psn-radio.com 
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "james m clark jr" <jameyboy@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Thanks Francisco,
                        > > And a good point indeed!
                        > >
                        > > Any suggestions for groups in English in South America?
                        > > perhaps I could restart a unlisted group I created called
                        > > native2native2 back in 2003 [with no members]
                        > >
                        > > To all at AWS
                        > >
                        > > However I don't get email/webmail from many groups including AWS so in the long run long after email/webmail is full, perhaps eventually deleted a link option at AWS should also be considered. I have about
                        > > 15 email from 2005 till now, none of which are group nor link related. It's a good thing that AWS is a public group as far as searching posts that we may recall cause Yahoo! isn't so good for searching posts half the time. I'm not sure if I want to search for Oz's link to his show here or in a new tab online but now that I have cable modem, and a late bloomer widows 7 I'll probably go to sleep an miss the show again... and have more time to visit my other 40 groups such as Cherokee History, AIM, and perhaps archaeo-politics I had come across a little to strong and the group just abandoned activey and interests altogether.
                        > >
                        > > be well y'all,
                        > > jamey
                        > >
                        > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Francisco J. González guajataca01@ wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > The paper below has several great photos of bronze and other casted metal artifacts from pre-1492 South America
                        > > >
                        > > > Technical examination of ancient South American metals: Some examples from Colombia, Peru and Argentina
                        > > >
                        > > > http://www.banrepcultural.org/blaavirtual/publicacionesbanrep/bolmuseo/1998/endi4445/endi02a.htm
                        > > >
                        > > > The link below is to another article on the casting of platinum. The article is in Spanish, but the last few pages has some great photos of artifacts made of platiunum and gold.
                        > > >
                        > > > http://dialnet.unirioja.es/servlet/fichero_articulo?codigo=236413&orden=0
                        > > >
                        > > > ALL of these objects were created by Native American peoples on their own, relying on their own intelligence and creativity, without the need to lost Vikings, Hebrews or Celts to teach them anything!
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >
                      • Rick O
                        Hi Jamey, No, it s about once every 2 years with Sam. Rest of the time he s working in Houston or in Bosnia. In fact, part of the most recent show he did from
                        Message 11 of 17 , Jan 28, 2011
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hi Jamey,

                          No, it's about once every 2 years with Sam. Rest of the time he's working in Houston or in Bosnia. In fact, part of the most recent show he did from the car on the way to the airport.

                          As soon as I have a good archive loaded, I'll post a link.

                          Oz

                          --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "james m clark jr" <jameyboy@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Sorry Oz man,
                          >
                          > I've been dealing with diffusion and sterotype issues in East & West Africa and been looking for a friend off and on that maybe missing in the Orlando area for nearly a year now if he hasn't relocated. Hopefully he is struggling to make ends meet and hopefully write when he can although it has been nearly a year since I've had any word.
                          >
                          > At any rate, is this a wkly thing with Mr. Osmanagich?
                          >
                          > be well,
                          > jamey
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Rick O" <ozman@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Jamey,
                          > > Tune in today at noon eastern for Sam Osmanagich and Bosnian Pyramids
                          > >
                          > > Today at 4 pm eastern for archeology news and commentary
                          > >
                          > > www.psn-radio.com <http://www.psn-radio.com>
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "james m clark jr"
                          > > <jameyboy@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Thanks Francisco,
                          > > > And a good point indeed!
                          > > >
                          > > > Any suggestions for groups in English in South America?
                          > > > perhaps I could restart a unlisted group I created called
                          > > > native2native2 back in 2003 [with no members]
                          > > >
                          > > > To all at AWS
                          > > >
                          > > > However I don't get email/webmail from many groups including AWS so in
                          > > the long run long after email/webmail is full, perhaps eventually
                          > > deleted a link option at AWS should also be considered. I have about
                          > > > 15 email from 2005 till now, none of which are group nor link related.
                          > > It's a good thing that AWS is a public group as far as searching posts
                          > > that we may recall cause Yahoo! isn't so good for searching posts half
                          > > the time. I'm not sure if I want to search for Oz's link to his show
                          > > here or in a new tab online but now that I have cable modem, and a late
                          > > bloomer widows 7 I'll probably go to sleep an miss the show again... and
                          > > have more time to visit my other 40 groups such as Cherokee History,
                          > > AIM, and perhaps archaeo-politics I had come across a little to strong
                          > > and the group just abandoned activey and interests altogether.
                          > > >
                          > > > be well y'all,
                          > > > jamey
                          > > >
                          > > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Francisco J.
                          > > González guajataca01@ wrote:
                          > > > >
                          > > > > The paper below has several great photos of bronze and other casted
                          > > metal artifacts from pre-1492 South America
                          > > > >
                          > > > > Technical examination of ancient South American metals: Some
                          > > examples from Colombia, Peru and Argentina
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > http://www.banrepcultural.org/blaavirtual/publicacionesbanrep/bolmuseo/1\
                          > > 998/endi4445/endi02a.htm
                          > > > >
                          > > > > The link below is to another article on the casting of platinum. The
                          > > article is in Spanish, but the last few pages has some great photos of
                          > > artifacts made of platiunum and gold.
                          > > > >
                          > > > >
                          > > http://dialnet.unirioja.es/servlet/fichero_articulo?codigo=236413&orden=\
                          > > 0
                          > > > >
                          > > > > ALL of these objects were created by Native American peoples on
                          > > their own, relying on their own intelligence and creativity, without the
                          > > need to lost Vikings, Hebrews or Celts to teach them anything!
                          > > > >
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >
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