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Re: "Ancient Canals?"

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  • bigalemc2
    Jamey - The marble and clay might have been affected by 1200 temps, but quartz is not. Quartz has amazing properties. One of them is that it is very
    Message 1 of 23 , Dec 3, 2010
      Jamey -

      The marble and clay might have been affected by 1200 temps, but quartz is not.

      Quartz has amazing properties. One of them is that it is very impervious to heat. It's "coefficient of thermal expansion" is 0.000, meaning that it does not expand or contract when it heats up or cools down. Whatever gives it that property, it also makes it able to withstand very high temps.

      It is used in quartz infrared heating bulbs, some in industry. I've worked with bulbs that operate at 4,000F. That is the temp at the heating element. The quartz is the "glass" around the heating element. The quartz is only about 1/8"-3/16" away from the heating element and the bulb in those is sealed, so there is nowhere for the heat to go but out through the quartz. (There is also a non-sealed version that only gets to 2,000F.)

      There used to be a show on TV that challenged claims of products. I saw the episode where they tested the claim of Corning that their quartz pans could actually be used to MELT aluminum pans. Now THAT is one hell of a claim! But they tested it, and sure enough! The aluminum pan melted INSIDE the quartz pan. Aluminum's melting temp is right around the 1200F temp mark.

      Quartz's melting temp? Right around 1700C, which is about 3,000F. That tells me that the temp at the quartz was substantially less than the 4,000F claimed by the quartz bulb manufacturers, and which clearly was the heating element temp only.

      BTW, that zero coefficient of expansion is an amazing thing. REALLY amazing. No joke. We were told that we could throw ice water on a white hot bulb and - other than the water instantly boiling very violently - nothing would happen to the bulb. THAT was a challenge too good to pass up, so we did exactly that. We took the best precautions we could to protect ourselves, and then flung the ice water onto the bulb. The water just EXPLODED on impact. But when it was all over, the bulb just sat there, still glowing.

      Sometimes you run across things that defy common sense. But the universe has many surprises like that.

      Anyway, I really don't think the 1200 temp affected the quartz. Perhaps something fell on the quartz?


      Steve


      --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "james m clark jr" <jameyboy@...> wrote:
      >
      > In what direction to the Chattahoochee from the Springs and Euchi Valley? This is exciting! Something to consider in my own project I somehow over looked.
      >
      > I am sorry to report that possible Wari marbles ((107c)of quartz, marble and clay were destroyed in house fire presumably, conditions exceeding 1200 degrees.
      >
      > be well,
      > jamey
      >
    • Ted Sojka
      Thank you for writing this letter with the additional information. There are many unexplained things on this earth and hope you look into more of them. One
      Message 2 of 23 , Dec 3, 2010
        Thank you for writing this letter with the additional information.   There are many unexplained things on this earth and hope you look into more of them.  One fellow who has done a lot with photos both from the ground and satellites is.      http://jqjacobs.net/
        He is a very competent archeologist and astronomer.  I hope you take a look at his web page and find some new things to research.   He has found a lot of evidence of villages and raised farm fields in the Amazon using Google Earth images.   

        The draining of the big swamps in the center of Wisconsin turned out to be blunders for the environment and never made very good fields for agriculture.  Many of the drainage ditches has been reworked to allow cranberries to grow in areas that drain into the Wisconsin River.  Before our efforts in the 1920 to reduce the size of the grand marsh the native Americans had been harvesting wild cranberries for thousands of years.  Too bad we did not ask them what that land was good for, as we bulldozed our way into the continent, with ideas not based on Nature, but rather harvest of timber, mining for minerals, and as the famous artist Charles M. Russell said, "plowing the prairie wrong side up".  He is the only artist that is featured among the statues in the Statuary Hall in the Capitol building.   He got to the "West" at fourteen, tried his hand at many things, but succeeded in "stopping time with his paint brush".  He gave us a window into a life that was passing before his eyes, and the passing of cultures never to return.  

        I did enjoy your efforts while you posted on the AWS site.  Good luck to you.

        Ted Sojka
        Native Earthworks Preservation / Iowa


        On Dec 3, 2010, at 6:38 PM, bigalemc2 wrote:

        Well, folks, the ancient canals aren't ancient, after all.

        We finally were able to find explanations for them and are satisfied that we were wrong.

        We found out that the long parallel canals were created in the 1915-1960 period as ways of combating mosquitos. Beginning with New Jersey, the coastal states found that literally "draining the swamps" worked quite well as the backbone of efforts to make the coast more congenial for humans.

        Why did we think they were not mosquito abatement measures? We saw on many sites that the canals did not reach to the seashore. The canals were most often dead-headed short of the shore. If the bottom end is not open, drainage doesn't happen. These dead-end canals thus looked like irrigation canals.

        What we didn't know was that in the 1960s they found out they'd changed the ecosystem and had lost the fauna that had formerly used the marshlands for habitat. By then they had other ways of combating the mosquitos, so the decision was made to close the drains by filling in the lower ends of the canals.

        By the time we came along drainage ditches had long since been turned into what looked like irrigation - in a place where irrigation didn't make sense, at least on our modern world.

        The symbol features? A good look at them tells us they are more recent even than the drainage ditches, since they all are tucked nicely between the ditches. Had they been older, the more or less random spacing of the ditches would have broken into the symbols.

        So, what did they end up being? Our best guess is muskrat lodges. Muskrats are kin to beavers and are very industrious in terraforming things to suit themselves. They make lodges in marshy areas(but not dams), and have the entrances under water as often as not. If they need to, they dig their own ditches around their lodges. They also dig ditches so that they can swim as much as possible. All in all, it is a pretty certain thing that the muskrats did them.

        Google Earth and Bing both flatten out features, so the lodges appear as flat islands.

        We need to take this all as an object lesson: We cannot trust that what we see on GE is a true representation.

        As to the big canals in the Gulf, we are now aware of how much damage has been done to the bayou areas, how much land has been lost due to human activity. That is one reason Katrina did so much damage - there just wasn't enough barrier land anymore. So the submerged ones seem to have an explanation as to why they are submerged: The wave action obliterated the crests of the canal berms.

        But what ARE they?

        After finding mundane explanations for the other two, John and I are beaten up enough to admit there is probably a mundane explanation for them, too. So, John is closing down his site shortly, and I will be closing down the blog, too. I posted there about the "mosquito ditches," and expect that traffic will cease even if we kept the sites open.

        So, this is a mea culpa. We were wrong.

        Sorry to get everyone's hopes up.

        Take care. I will still be around...

        Steve


      • Susan
        Steve and All, The public admissions and closing down of the Ancient Canal Builders in America project and web sites when holes were found in the research
        Message 3 of 23 , Dec 3, 2010

          Steve and All,

          The public admissions and closing down of the Ancient Canal Builders in America project and web sites when holes were found in the research demonstrates to me sound scientific practices as well as high integrity and humility.   Considerable obvious effort has been made by your research team and I've no doubt members of the team are burnt out.  I doubt that any of you are denying that substantial numbers of canals, perhaps canal networks, were in existence hundreds, perhaps thousands of years ago with remnants of scientifically provable evidence yet to be discovered and tested by underwater archaeologists, geoligists and others such as Jensen , you and those willing to lay your time and credibility on the line to consider and explore such possibilities.

          I continue to believe America was riddled with ancient, humanly-constructed canals,  some very likely leaving traces and scientifically provable evidence for underwater archaeologists, geoligists and others like Jensen, Garcia willing to explore such possibilities.  Riverways, intra- and intercontinental waterways, humanly constructed/altered canals are at the very roots of diffusionist exploration and to me, advanced socio-cultural research.

          I think a parallel here:  as is well known and voiced by avocational, academic researchers,  old texts and many of the populace around the Lake Superior Copper Country.....most, if not all historic copper mines originated from ancient copper pits and mines.   I'd be very surprised if that did not hold true to a certain extent with contemporary canals where water routes have not been totally altered from centuries, millinnea ago.  Unlike the copper mining parallel where tbe physical evidence of discarded hammerstones was present until a few decades ago,  imperical evidence for ancient canals is far more difficult.   If such canals existed and evidence no longer remains, it will be another case where ignorance will continue to prevail,  knowledge of ancient human genius is lost to time, population expansion, and the increasingly total technological dominance of the natural world continues.

          I commend the efforts of the Ancient Canal Builders team and look forward to Steve and any of you here at AWS continuing into the roots and scientifically-based intent of some of the fine research the courageous team began not very long ago.

          Thanks to so many of you here for the interesting Posts, subjects, and responses to each others' letters here the past couple of weeks.  It is a pleasure to be a member and a co-host of this site.

          Susan


          --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "bigalemc2" <puppet@...> wrote:
          >
          > Well, folks, the ancient canals aren't ancient, after all.
          >
          > We finally were able to find explanations for them and are satisfied that we were wrong.
          >
          > We found out that the long parallel canals were created in the 1915-1960 period as ways of combating mosquitos. Beginning with New Jersey, the coastal states found that literally "draining the swamps" worked quite well as the backbone of efforts to make the coast more congenial for humans.
          >
          > Why did we think they were not mosquito abatement measures? We saw on many sites that the canals did not reach to the seashore. The canals were most often dead-headed short of the shore. If the bottom end is not open, drainage doesn't happen. These dead-end canals thus looked like irrigation canals.
          >
          > What we didn't know was that in the 1960s they found out they'd changed the ecosystem and had lost the fauna that had formerly used the marshlands for habitat. By then they had other ways of combating the mosquitos, so the decision was made to close the drains by filling in the lower ends of the canals.
          >
          > By the time we came along drainage ditches had long since been turned into what looked like irrigation - in a place where irrigation didn't make sense, at least on our modern world.
          >
          > The symbol features? A good look at them tells us they are more recent even than the drainage ditches, since they all are tucked nicely between the ditches. Had they been older, the more or less random spacing of the ditches would have broken into the symbols.
          >
          > So, what did they end up being? Our best guess is muskrat lodges. Muskrats are kin to beavers and are very industrious in terraforming things to suit themselves. They make lodges in marshy areas(but not dams), and have the entrances under water as often as not. If they need to, they dig their own ditches around their lodges. They also dig ditches so that they can swim as much as possible. All in all, it is a pretty certain thing that the muskrats did them.
          >
          > Google Earth and Bing both flatten out features, so the lodges appear as flat islands.
          >
          > We need to take this all as an object lesson: We cannot trust that what we see on GE is a true representation.
          >
          > As to the big canals in the Gulf, we are now aware of how much damage has been done to the bayou areas, how much land has been lost due to human activity. That is one reason Katrina did so much damage - there just wasn't enough barrier land anymore. So the submerged ones seem to have an explanation as to why they are submerged: The wave action obliterated the crests of the canal berms.
          >
          > But what ARE they?
          >
          > After finding mundane explanations for the other two, John and I are beaten up enough to admit there is probably a mundane explanation for them, too. So, John is closing down his site shortly, and I will be closing down the blog, too. I posted there about the "mosquito ditches," and expect that traffic will cease even if we kept the sites open.
          >
          > So, this is a mea culpa. We were wrong.
          >
          > Sorry to get everyone's hopes up.
          >
          > Take care. I will still be around...
          >
          > Steve
          >

        • Vincent Barrows
          Steve and all; It is correct that we moderns have constructed canals for purposes of draining swamps, building pipelines, roadways, right of ways, property
          Message 4 of 23 , Dec 3, 2010
            Steve and all;
            It is correct that we moderns have constructed canals for purposes of draining swamps, building pipelines, roadways, right of ways, property boundaries.  The following link includes some information about modern canal building.  This shows that the majority of mosquito drainage canals were built in the early 1900s.

            http://www.coastalguide.com/IntraCoastalWaterway/SouthCarolinaCanals.shtml

            Rafinesque in 1838 wrote "But our monuments do not merely consist in such mounds or tumuli, since we find besides in North America, ruins of cities, some of which were walled with earth or even stones, real forts or citadels, temples and altars of all shapes, but chiefly circular, square or polygonal, some elliptical, hexagonal, octagonal, &c., quite regularly pointing to the cardinal points. We have also traces of buildings, foundations, roads, avenues, causeways, canals, bridges, dromes, or racecourses, pillars and pyramids, wells, pits, arenas, &c. And of these not a few, but hundreds of them, many of which are unsurveyed and undescribed as yet. "

            Some prehistoric humans constructed canals for architectural and irrigation purposes.  Gladwin discusses an archaeological site report from Arizona that discusses Hohokam irrigation canals. These canals were built and rebuilt in prehistoric times to irrigate arid desert farmland.   William Morgan also has published Prehistoric Architecture in the Eastern United States and shows examples of canals and moats.  His book uses survey data from 1830's (Squier and Davis) to illustrate examples of mound sites with evidence of manmade canals and waterscapes. 

            Respectfully;
            Vince


            From: Susan <beldingenglish@...>
            To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Fri, December 3, 2010 8:35:11 PM
            Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: "Ancient Canals?"

             

            Steve and All,

            The public admissions and closing down of the Ancient Canal Builders in America project and web sites when holes were found in the research demonstrates to me sound scientific practices as well as high integrity and humility.   Considerable obvious effort has been made by your research team and I've no doubt members of the team are burnt out.  I doubt that any of you are denying that substantial numbers of canals, perhaps canal networks, were in existence hundreds, perhaps thousands of years ago with remnants of scientifically provable evidence yet to be discovered and tested by underwater archaeologists, geoligists and others such as Jensen , you and those willing to lay your time and credibility on the line to consider and explore such possibilities.

            I continue to believe America was riddled with ancient, humanly-constructed canals,  some very likely leaving traces and scientifically provable evidence for underwater archaeologists, geoligists and others like Jensen, Garcia willing to explore such possibilities.  Riverways, intra- and intercontinental waterways, humanly constructed/altered canals are at the very roots of diffusionist exploration and to me, advanced socio-cultural research.

            I think a parallel here:  as is well known and voiced by avocational, academic researchers,  old texts and many of the populace around the Lake Superior Copper Country.....most, if not all historic copper mines originated from ancient copper pits and mines.   I'd be very surprised if that did not hold true to a certain extent with contemporary canals where water routes have not been totally altered from centuries, millinnea ago.  Unlike the copper mining parallel where tbe physical evidence of discarded hammerstones was present until a few decades ago,  imperical evidence for ancient canals is far more difficult.   If such canals existed and evidence no longer remains, it will be another case where ignorance will continue to prevail,  knowledge of ancient human genius is lost to time, population expansion, and the increasingly total technological dominance of the natural world continues.

            I commend the efforts of the Ancient Canal Builders team and look forward to Steve and any of you here at AWS continuing into the roots and scientifically-based intent of some of the fine research the courageous team began not very long ago.

            Thanks to so many of you here for the interesting Posts, subjects, and responses to each others' letters here the past couple of weeks.  It is a pleasure to be a member and a co-host of this site.

            Susan


            --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "bigalemc2" <puppet@...> wrote:
            >
            > Well, folks, the ancient canals aren't ancient, after all.
            >
            > We finally were able to find explanations for them and are satisfied that we were wrong.
            >
            > We found out that the long parallel canals were created in the 1915-1960 period as ways of combating mosquitos. Beginning with New Jersey, the coastal states found that literally "draining the swamps" worked quite well as the backbone of efforts to make the coast more congenial for humans.
            >
            > Why did we think they were not mosquito abatement measures? We saw on many sites that the canals did not reach to the seashore. The canals were most often dead-headed short of the shore. If the bottom end is not open, drainage doesn't happen. These dead-end canals thus looked like irrigation canals.
            >
            > What we didn't know was that in the 1960s they found out they'd changed the ecosystem and had lost the fauna that had formerly used the marshlands for habitat. By then they had other ways of combating the mosquitos, so the decision was made to close the drains by filling in the lower ends of the canals.
            >
            > By the time we came along drainage ditches had long since been turned into what looked like irrigation - in a place where irrigation didn't make sense, at least on our modern world.
            >
            > The symbol features? A good look at them tells us they are more recent even than the drainage ditches, since they all are tucked nicely between the ditches. Had they been older, the more or less random spacing of the ditches would have broken into the symbols.
            >
            > So, what did they end up being? Our best guess is muskrat lodges. Muskrats are kin to beavers and are very industrious in terraforming things to suit themselves. They make lodges in marshy areas(but not dams), and have the entrances under water as often as not. If they need to, they dig their own ditches around their lodges. They also dig ditches so that they can swim as much as possible. All in all, it is a pretty certain thing that the muskrats did them.
            >
            > Google Earth and Bing both flatten out features, so the lodges appear as flat islands.
            >
            > We need to take this all as an object lesson: We cannot trust that what we see on GE is a true representation.
            >
            > As to the big canals in the Gulf, we are now aware of how much damage has been done to the bayou areas, how much land has been lost due to human activity. That is one reason Katrina did so much damage - there just wasn't enough barrier land anymore. So the submerged ones seem to have an explanation as to why they are submerged: The wave action obliterated the crests of the canal berms.
            >
            > But what ARE they?
            >
            > After finding mundane explanations for the other two, John and I are beaten up enough to admit there is probably a mundane explanation for them, too. So, John is closing down his site shortly, and I will be closing down the blog, too. I posted there about the "mosquito ditches," and expect that traffic will cease even if we kept the sites open.
            >
            > So, this is a mea culpa. We were wrong.
            >
            > Sorry to get everyone's hopes up.
            >
            > Take care. I will still be around...
            >
            > Steve
            >


          • james m clark jr
            Really, Well it looks like I ll just have to go and find my marbles and make use of the frontyard fire pit once again. I m not one who burns plastic in a pit
            Message 5 of 23 , Dec 4, 2010
              Really,

              Well it looks like I'll just have to go and find my marbles and make use of the frontyard fire pit once again. I'm not one who burns plastic in a pit especially when so much good food came from that pit.
              Charcoal just doesn't do it for me espically for smoked red beans and rice, baked corn, grilled carrots and a nice pepper steak glazed with vidalla onion steak sause.

              I surely would have thought they would have shattered like
              granite. Most of them are quartz. I only had about 7 clay ones,
              and about 10 to 12 of marble.

              Thanks again Steve

              be well,
              jamey




              --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "bigalemc2" <puppet@...> wrote:
              >
              > Jamey -
              >
              > The marble and clay might have been affected by 1200 temps, but quartz is not.
              >
              > Quartz has amazing properties. One of them is that it is very impervious to heat. It's "coefficient of thermal expansion" is 0.000, meaning that it does not expand or contract when it heats up or cools down. Whatever gives it that property, it also makes it able to withstand very high temps.
              >
              > It is used in quartz infrared heating bulbs, some in industry. I've worked with bulbs that operate at 4,000F. That is the temp at the heating element. The quartz is the "glass" around the heating element. The quartz is only about 1/8"-3/16" away from the heating element and the bulb in those is sealed, so there is nowhere for the heat to go but out through the quartz. (There is also a non-sealed version that only gets to 2,000F.)
              >
              > There used to be a show on TV that challenged claims of products. I saw the episode where they tested the claim of Corning that their quartz pans could actually be used to MELT aluminum pans. Now THAT is one hell of a claim! But they tested it, and sure enough! The aluminum pan melted INSIDE the quartz pan. Aluminum's melting temp is right around the 1200F temp mark.
              >
              > Quartz's melting temp? Right around 1700C, which is about 3,000F. That tells me that the temp at the quartz was substantially less than the 4,000F claimed by the quartz bulb manufacturers, and which clearly was the heating element temp only.
              >
              > BTW, that zero coefficient of expansion is an amazing thing. REALLY amazing. No joke. We were told that we could throw ice water on a white hot bulb and - other than the water instantly boiling very violently - nothing would happen to the bulb. THAT was a challenge too good to pass up, so we did exactly that. We took the best precautions we could to protect ourselves, and then flung the ice water onto the bulb. The water just EXPLODED on impact. But when it was all over, the bulb just sat there, still glowing.
              >
              > Sometimes you run across things that defy common sense. But the universe has many surprises like that.
              >
              > Anyway, I really don't think the 1200 temp affected the quartz. Perhaps something fell on the quartz?
              >
              >
              > Steve
              >
              >
              > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "james m clark jr" <jameyboy@> wrote:
              > >
              > > In what direction to the Chattahoochee from the Springs and Euchi Valley? This is exciting! Something to consider in my own project I somehow over looked.
              > >
              > > I am sorry to report that possible Wari marbles ((107c)of quartz, marble and clay were destroyed in house fire presumably, conditions exceeding 1200 degrees.
              > >
              > > be well,
              > > jamey
              > >
              >
            • bigalemc2
              Thanks, Ted. Speaking about all this, I thought folks here might be interested in something else ancient American. I got an email this morning from Paul
              Message 6 of 23 , Dec 4, 2010
                Thanks, Ted.

                Speaking about all this, I thought folks here might be interested in something else ancient American.  I got an email this morning from Paul Chiasson, the author of "The Island of Seven Cities".  He wrote:
                The documentary, titled "Mysterious Ruins - Cape Breton", will air in Canada on History Television on Saturday, December 11, at 7:00pm.  For more information you can check their website, history.ca. 
                He also sent a link for the trailer:
                http://www.myspace.com/video/496952816/mysterious-ruins-cape-breton-trailer/105485432 
                I will check it out and find a way to watch it as soon as I can.


                ...I have my hand in several other things, so much that it gets in the way of making a living sometimes...

                I will check out the site your recommended.  It sounds familiar.

                And I am fairly familiar with the bits about the Amazon.  The book 1491 covers that nicely, and opens up wide vistas for inquiry.

                I think perhaps some of us lived former lives in some of the indigenous western hemisphere cultures and know intrinsically that the histories are simply untrue - and we want the truth to be known.

                But not everything we delve into is going to pan out.  Some will, and some won't.  Perhaps our memories are not 100% and we latch onto some ideas that ring a bell but aren't quite 100%.

                Also, I may have spoken a bit hastily about the canals.  We do still have one type we haven't figured out yet - the big wide long ones in Louisiana.  While it is possible they have a mundane explanation, that is not a done deal yet.  We are retrenching as I write this.

                Steve

                --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...> wrote:
                >
                > Thank you for writing this letter with the additional information.
                > There are many unexplained things on this earth and hope you look into
                > more of them. One fellow who has done a lot with photos both from the
                > ground and satellites is. http://jqjacobs.net/
                > He is a very competent archeologist and astronomer. I hope you take a
                > look at his web page and find some new things to research. He has
                > found a lot of evidence of villages and raised farm fields in the
                > Amazon using Google Earth images.
                >
                > The draining of the big swamps in the center of Wisconsin turned out
                > to be blunders for the environment and never made very good fields for
                > agriculture. Many of the drainage ditches has been reworked to allow
                > cranberries to grow in areas that drain into the Wisconsin River.
                > Before our efforts in the 1920 to reduce the size of the grand marsh
                > the native Americans had been harvesting wild cranberries for
                > thousands of years. Too bad we did not ask them what that land was
                > good for, as we bulldozed our way into the continent, with ideas not
                > based on Nature, but rather harvest of timber, mining for minerals,
                > and as the famous artist Charles M. Russell said, "plowing the prairie
                > wrong side up". He is the only artist that is featured among the
                > statues in the Statuary Hall in the Capitol building. He got to the
                > "West" at fourteen, tried his hand at many things, but succeeded in
                > "stopping time with his paint brush". He gave us a window into a life
                > that was passing before his eyes, and the passing of cultures never to
                > return.
                >
                > I did enjoy your efforts while you posted on the AWS site. Good luck
                > to you.
                >
                > Ted Sojka
                > Native Earthworks Preservation / Iowa

              • Susan
                Before their posts get buried farther under the flood of recent posts, I want to thank co-host Vince Barrows (New Orleans), Ted Sojka (Iowa) , Jamey (Georgia?)
                Message 7 of 23 , Dec 5, 2010

                  Before their posts get buried farther under the flood of recent posts, I want to thank co-host Vince Barrows (New Orleans), Ted Sojka (Iowa) , Jamey (Georgia?) and others here for the excellent comments/links and encouraging responses after the closing of the Ancient Canalbuilders web sites (which hopefully is temporary).  It is from my personal interest of global intent to hope the cooperative diffusionist research continues into ancient intra-continental canals, and also intercontinental canals and channels between the Americas and beyond.   I need to find time to explore some of the older data on ancient canals in the areas of S. Carolina, Arizona, Louisiana, etc. that Vince sent.  Vince's work as an engineer, and having not long ago relocated from the Cahokia area of Illinoios-Missouri to New Orleans, is a good candicate to do ground (swamp/bayou) work in liason with higher tech imagery on natural or man-made water routes in lieu of varying human and climate changes, weather disasters.  Thanks too, Vince for adding the Chapter VI article by Emil W. Haury under the Ancient Canal section of our Links page that you titled:  Snaketown - central Arizona prehistoric irrigation canals:    http://www.scribd.com/doc/44631409/Snaketown-Canal

                  In my last Post re: Beothuks in Iceland, I sent an incorrect link to Paper No. The Last Expedition: The Kensington Runestone I mentioned w/photos of Icelandic boundary holestones, maps, etc, and links to more articles below some might dig for clues to more on the far regions of N. America..  The correct one: http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_3.3propertyboundarylines.htm   (bottom of the page articles)

                  CONTENTS

                  Susan


                  --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Vincent Barrows <v_barrows@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Steve and all;
                  > It is correct that we moderns have constructed canals for purposes of draining
                  > swamps, building pipelines, roadways, right of ways, property boundaries. The
                  > following link includes some information about modern canal building. This
                  > shows that the majority of mosquito drainage canals were built in the early
                  > 1900s.
                  >
                  > http://www.coastalguide.com/IntraCoastalWaterway/SouthCarolinaCanals.shtml
                  >
                  > Rafinesque in 1838 wrote "But our monuments do not merely consist in such mounds
                  > or tumuli, since we find besides in North America, ruins of cities, some of
                  > which were walled with earth or even stones, real forts or citadels, temples and
                  > altars of all shapes, but chiefly circular, square or polygonal, some
                  > elliptical, hexagonal, octagonal, &c., quite regularly pointing to the cardinal
                  > points. We have also traces of buildings, foundations, roads, avenues,
                  > causeways, canals, bridges, dromes, or racecourses, pillars and pyramids, wells,
                  > pits, arenas, &c. And of these not a few, but hundreds of them, many of which
                  > are unsurveyed and undescribed as yet. "
                  >
                  > Some prehistoric humans constructed canals for architectural and
                  > irrigation purposes. Gladwin discusses an archaeological site report from
                  > Arizona that discusses Hohokam irrigation canals. These canals were built and
                  > rebuilt in prehistoric times to irrigate arid desert farmland. William Morgan
                  > also has published Prehistoric Architecture in the Eastern United States and
                  > shows examples of canals and moats. His book uses survey data from 1830's
                  > (Squier and Davis) to illustrate examples of mound sites with evidence of
                  > manmade canals and waterscapes.
                  >
                  >
                  > Respectfully;
                  > Vince
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  > From: Susan beldingenglish@...
                  > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Fri, December 3, 2010 8:35:11 PM
                  > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: "Ancient Canals?"
                  >
                  >
                  > Steve and All,
                  > The public admissions and closing down of the Ancient Canal Builders in America
                  > project and web sites when holes were found in the research demonstrates to me
                  > sound scientific practices as well as high integrity and humility.
                  > Considerable obvious effort has been made by your research team and I've no
                  > doubt members of the team are burnt out. I doubt that any of you are denying
                  > that substantial numbers of canals, perhaps canal networks, were in existence
                  > hundreds, perhaps thousands of years ago with remnants of scientifically
                  > provable evidence yet to be discovered and tested by underwater archaeologists,
                  > geoligists and others such as Jensen , you and those willing to lay your time
                  > and credibility on the line to consider and explore such possibilities.
                  > I continue to believe America was riddled with ancient,
                  > humanly-constructed canals, some very likely leaving traces and scientifically
                  > provable evidence for underwater archaeologists, geoligists and others
                  > like Jensen, Garcia willing to explore such possibilities. Riverways, intra-
                  > and intercontinental waterways, humanly constructed/altered canals are at the
                  > very roots of diffusionist exploration and to me, advanced socio-cultural
                  > research.
                  > I think a parallel here: as is well known and voiced by avocational, academic
                  > researchers, old texts and many of the populace around the Lake Superior Copper
                  > Country.....most, if not all historic copper mines originated from ancient
                  > copper pits and mines. I'd be very surprised if that did not hold true to a
                  > certain extent with contemporary canals where water routes have not been totally
                  > altered from centuries, millinnea ago. Unlike the copper mining parallel
                  > where tbe physical evidence of discarded hammerstones was present until a few
                  > decades ago, imperical evidence for ancient canals is far more difficult. If
                  > such canals existed and evidence no longer remains, it will be another case
                  > where ignorance will continue to prevail, knowledge of ancient human genius is
                  > lost to time, population expansion, and the increasingly total technological
                  > dominance of the natural world continues.
                  > I commend the efforts of the Ancient Canal Builders team and look forward to
                  > Steve and any of you here at AWS continuing into the roots and
                  > scientifically-based intent of some of the fine research the courageous team
                  > began not very long ago.
                  > Thanks to so many of you here for the interesting Posts, subjects, and responses
                  > to each others' letters here the past couple of weeks. It is a pleasure to be a
                  > member and a co-host of this site.
                  > Susan
                  >
                  > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "bigalemc2" puppet@
                  > wrote:
                  > >
                  > > Well, folks, the ancient canals aren't ancient, after all.
                  > >
                  > > We finally were able to find explanations for them and are satisfied that we
                  > >were wrong.
                  > >
                  > > We found out that the long parallel canals were created in the 1915-1960 period
                  > >as ways of combating mosquitos. Beginning with New Jersey, the coastal states
                  > >found that literally "draining the swamps" worked quite well as the backbone of
                  > >efforts to make the coast more congenial for humans.
                  > >
                  > > Why did we think they were not mosquito abatement measures? We saw on many
                  > >sites that the canals did not reach to the seashore. The canals were most often
                  > >dead-headed short of the shore. If the bottom end is not open, drainage doesn't
                  > >happen. These dead-end canals thus looked like irrigation canals.
                  > >
                  > > What we didn't know was that in the 1960s they found out they'd changed the
                  > >ecosystem and had lost the fauna that had formerly used the marshlands for
                  > >habitat. By then they had other ways of combating the mosquitos, so the decision
                  > >was made to close the drains by filling in the lower ends of the canals.
                  > >
                  > > By the time we came along drainage ditches had long since been turned into what
                  > >looked like irrigation - in a place where irrigation didn't make sense, at least
                  > >on our modern world.
                  > >
                  > > The symbol features? A good look at them tells us they are more recent even
                  > >than the drainage ditches, since they all are tucked nicely between the ditches.
                  > >Had they been older, the more or less random spacing of the ditches would have
                  > >broken into the symbols.
                  > >
                  > > So, what did they end up being? Our best guess is muskrat lodges. Muskrats are
                  > >kin to beavers and are very industrious in terraforming things to suit
                  > >themselves. They make lodges in marshy areas(but not dams), and have the
                  > >entrances under water as often as not. If they need to, they dig their own
                  > >ditches around their lodges. They also dig ditches so that they can swim as much
                  > >as possible. All in all, it is a pretty certain thing that the muskrats did
                  > >them.
                  > >
                  > > Google Earth and Bing both flatten out features, so the lodges appear as flat
                  > >islands.
                  > >
                  > > We need to take this all as an object lesson: We cannot trust that what we see
                  > >on GE is a true representation.
                  > >
                  > > As to the big canals in the Gulf, we are now aware of how much damage has been
                  > >done to the bayou areas, how much land has been lost due to human activity. That
                  > >is one reason Katrina did so much damage - there just wasn't enough barrier land
                  > >anymore. So the submerged ones seem to have an explanation as to why they are
                  > >submerged: The wave action obliterated the crests of the canal berms.
                  > >
                  > > But what ARE they?
                  > >
                  > > After finding mundane explanations for the other two, John and I are beaten up
                  > >enough to admit there is probably a mundane explanation for them, too. So, John
                  > >is closing down his site shortly, and I will be closing down the blog, too. I
                  > >posted there about the "mosquito ditches," and expect that traffic will cease
                  > >even if we kept the sites open.
                  > >
                  > > So, this is a mea culpa. We were wrong.
                  > >
                  > > Sorry to get everyone's hopes up.
                  > >
                  > > Take care. I will still be around...
                  > >
                  > > Steve
                  > >
                  >

                • Rick O
                  This is going to be a bit of a hodge podge, but time simply refuses to let me be thorough or organized today. 1. If I ve accomplished nothing else with the
                  Message 8 of 23 , Dec 7, 2010
                    This is going to be a bit of a hodge podge, but time simply refuses to
                    let me be thorough or organized today.

                    1. If I've accomplished nothing else with the Oopa Loopa Cafe, I'm proud
                    to help guide folks like Lonni to this group. I'm working on Fritz
                    Zimmerman.

                    2. The cumulative evidence is leaning towards a very sophisticated water
                    management knowledge and technology among ancient Americans, possibly to
                    even include water wheels to do work (e.g., Puma Punto, Palenque, Machu
                    Pichu). So canals / irrigation / drainage are far from eliminated as
                    possible ancient works.

                    3. Valdimar, glad you finally got here. We need your bird's eye view.

                    4. An announcement: Mary Sutherland has discovered what may be a
                    previously undocumented "snake" effigy near Burlington, WI. More as I
                    get more, but this is pretty close to the site where the Vorhees plates
                    were found and there was a thunderbird effigy nearby in historic times
                    (still kind of sorta almost maybe a little visible in Google Earth).

                    5. I seem to recall a specific mention of "grapes" in Leiffet Saga,
                    someone please correct me if I'm wrong. Even during the Maunder Maximum,
                    that would put Vinland no further north than about Nova Scotia and far
                    more likely somewhere between Naragansett and Chesapeake (the latter
                    being my own latitude).

                    Enjoy. Keep the thinking caps spining

                    Oz
                    --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
                    <beldingenglish@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > Before their posts get buried farther under the flood of recent posts,
                    I
                    > want to thank co-host Vince Barrows (New Orleans), Ted Sojka (Iowa) ,
                    > Jamey (Georgia?) and others here for the excellent comments/links and
                    > encouraging responses after the closing of the Ancient Canalbuilders
                    web
                    > sites (which hopefully is temporary). It is from my personal interest
                    > of global intent to hope the cooperative diffusionist research
                    continues
                    > into ancient intra-continental canals, and also intercontinental
                    canals
                    > and channels between the Americas and beyond. I need to find time to
                    > explore some of the older data on ancient canals in the areas of S.
                    > Carolina, Arizona, Louisiana, etc. that Vince sent. Vince's work as
                    an
                    > engineer, and having not long ago relocated from the Cahokia area of
                    > Illinoios-Missouri to New Orleans, is a good candicate to do ground
                    > (swamp/bayou) work in liason with higher tech imagery on natural or
                    > man-made water routes in lieu of varying human and climate changes,
                    > weather disasters. Thanks too, Vince for adding the Chapter VI
                    article
                    > by Emil W. Haury under the Ancient Canal
                    > <http://www.scribd.com/doc/44631409/Snaketown-Canal> section of our
                    > Links
                    > <http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ancient_waterways_society/links>
                    > page that you titled: Snaketown - central Arizona prehistoric
                    > irrigation canals:
                    http://www.scribd.com/doc/44631409/Snaketown-Canal
                    > <http://www.scribd.com/doc/44631409/Snaketown-Canal>
                    >
                    > In my last Post re: Beothuks in Iceland, I sent an incorrect link to
                    > Paper No. The Last Expedition: The Kensington Runestone I mentioned
                    > w/photos of Icelandic boundary holestones, maps, etc, and links to
                    more
                    > articles below some might dig for clues to more on the far regions of
                    N.
                    > America.. The correct one:
                    > http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_3.3propertyboundarylines.htm
                    > <http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_3.3propertyboundarylines.htm>
                    > (bottom of the page articles)
                    >
                    > CONTENTS
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > 1. Introduction <http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_1.introduction.htm>
                    >
                    > 2. Norse settlement on the east coast of North America
                    >
                    > 2.1 Labrador place names and Ari of Holum
                    > <http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_2.1labradorplacenames.htm>
                    >
                    > 2.2 L'anse aux Meadows
                    > <http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_2.2lanseauxmeadows.htm>
                    >
                    > 2.3 Norse in the St. Lawrence Valley
                    > <http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_2.3norseinthest.lawrencevalley.htm>
                    >
                    > 2.4 The Bishop's voyage
                    > <http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_2.4thebishopsvoyage.htm>
                    >
                    > 3. Evidence for Norse settlement in the mid continent
                    >
                    > 3.1 Holestones and the Kensington runestone
                    > <http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_3.1holestones.htm>
                    >
                    > 3.2 The Whetstone River holestones
                    > <http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_3.2thewhetstoneriverholestones.htm>
                    >
                    > 3.3 Property boundary lines and the Graenaveldi
                    > <http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_3.3propertyboundarylines.htm>
                    >
                    > 3.4 Knutson's search for the Graenaveldi
                    > <http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_3.4knutsonssearch.htm>
                    >
                    > 3.5 Appendix: The Kensington inscription: word-by-word
                    translation
                    > <http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_3.5appendix.htm>
                    >
                    > 4. End Notes <http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_4.endnotes.htm>
                    >
                    >
                    > Susan
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Vincent Barrows
                    > v_barrows@ wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Steve and all;
                    > > It is correct that we moderns have constructed canals for purposes
                    of
                    > draining
                    > > swamps, building pipelines, roadways, right of ways, property
                    > boundaries. The
                    > > following link includes some information about modern canal
                    building.
                    > This
                    > > shows that the majority of mosquito drainage canals were built in
                    the
                    > early
                    > > 1900s.
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    http://www.coastalguide.com/IntraCoastalWaterway/SouthCarolinaCanals.sht\
                    \
                    > ml
                    > >
                    > > Rafinesque in 1838 wrote "But our monuments do not merely consist in
                    > such mounds
                    > > or tumuli, since we find besides in North America, ruins of cities,
                    > some of
                    > > which were walled with earth or even stones, real forts or citadels,
                    > temples and
                    > > altars of all shapes, but chiefly circular, square or polygonal,
                    some
                    > > elliptical, hexagonal, octagonal, &c., quite regularly pointing to
                    the
                    > cardinal
                    > > points. We have also traces of buildings, foundations, roads,
                    avenues,
                    > > causeways, canals, bridges, dromes, or racecourses, pillars and
                    > pyramids, wells,
                    > > pits, arenas, &c. And of these not a few, but hundreds of them, many
                    > of which
                    > > are unsurveyed and undescribed as yet. "
                    > >
                    > > Some prehistoric humans constructed canals for architectural and
                    > > irrigation purposes. Gladwin discusses an archaeological site report
                    > from
                    > > Arizona that discusses Hohokam irrigation canals. These canals were
                    > built and
                    > > rebuilt in prehistoric times to irrigate arid desert farmland.
                    William
                    > Morgan
                    > > also has published Prehistoric Architecture in the Eastern United
                    > States and
                    > > shows examples of canals and moats. His book uses survey data from
                    > 1830's
                    > > (Squier and Davis) to illustrate examples of mound sites with
                    evidence
                    > of
                    > > manmade canals and waterscapes.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Respectfully;
                    > > Vince
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ________________________________
                    > > From: Susan beldingenglish@
                    > > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Sent: Fri, December 3, 2010 8:35:11 PM
                    > > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: "Ancient Canals?"
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Steve and All,
                    > > The public admissions and closing down of the Ancient Canal Builders
                    > in America
                    > > project and web sites when holes were found in the research
                    > demonstrates to me
                    > > sound scientific practices as well as high integrity and humility.
                    > > Considerable obvious effort has been made by your research team and
                    > I've no
                    > > doubt members of the team are burnt out. I doubt that any of you are
                    > denying
                    > > that substantial numbers of canals, perhaps canal networks, were in
                    > existence
                    > > hundreds, perhaps thousands of years ago with remnants of
                    > scientifically
                    > > provable evidence yet to be discovered and tested by underwater
                    > archaeologists,
                    > > geoligists and others such as Jensen , you and those willing to lay
                    > your time
                    > > and credibility on the line to consider and explore such
                    > possibilities.
                    > > I continue to believe America was riddled with ancient,
                    > > humanly-constructed canals, some very likely leaving traces and
                    > scientifically
                    > > provable evidence for underwater archaeologists, geoligists and
                    others
                    > > like Jensen, Garcia willing to explore such possibilities.
                    Riverways,
                    > intra-
                    > > and intercontinental waterways, humanly constructed/altered canals
                    are
                    > at the
                    > > very roots of diffusionist exploration and to me, advanced
                    > socio-cultural
                    > > research.
                    > > I think a parallel here: as is well known and voiced by avocational,
                    > academic
                    > > researchers, old texts and many of the populace around the Lake
                    > Superior Copper
                    > > Country.....most, if not all historic copper mines originated from
                    > ancient
                    > > copper pits and mines. I'd be very surprised if that did not hold
                    true
                    > to a
                    > > certain extent with contemporary canals where water routes have not
                    > been totally
                    > > altered from centuries, millinnea ago. Unlike the copper mining
                    > parallel
                    > > where tbe physical evidence of discarded hammerstones was present
                    > until a few
                    > > decades ago, imperical evidence for ancient canals is far more
                    > difficult. If
                    > > such canals existed and evidence no longer remains, it will be
                    another
                    > case
                    > > where ignorance will continue to prevail, knowledge of ancient human
                    > genius is
                    > > lost to time, population expansion, and the increasingly total
                    > technological
                    > > dominance of the natural world continues.
                    > > I commend the efforts of the Ancient Canal Builders team and look
                    > forward to
                    > > Steve and any of you here at AWS continuing into the roots and
                    > > scientifically-based intent of some of the fine research the
                    > courageous team
                    > > began not very long ago.
                    > > Thanks to so many of you here for the interesting Posts, subjects,
                    and
                    > responses
                    > > to each others' letters here the past couple of weeks. It is a
                    > pleasure to be a
                    > > member and a co-host of this site.
                    > > Susan
                    > >
                    > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "bigalemc2"
                    puppet@
                    > > wrote:
                    > > >
                    > > > Well, folks, the ancient canals aren't ancient, after all.
                    > > >
                    > > > We finally were able to find explanations for them and are
                    satisfied
                    > that we
                    > > >were wrong.
                    > > >
                    > > > We found out that the long parallel canals were created in the
                    > 1915-1960 period
                    > > >as ways of combating mosquitos. Beginning with New Jersey, the
                    > coastal states
                    > > >found that literally "draining the swamps" worked quite well as the
                    > backbone of
                    > > >efforts to make the coast more congenial for humans.
                    > > >
                    > > > Why did we think they were not mosquito abatement measures? We saw
                    > on many
                    > > >sites that the canals did not reach to the seashore. The canals
                    were
                    > most often
                    > > >dead-headed short of the shore. If the bottom end is not open,
                    > drainage doesn't
                    > > >happen. These dead-end canals thus looked like irrigation canals.
                    > > >
                    > > > What we didn't know was that in the 1960s they found out they'd
                    > changed the
                    > > >ecosystem and had lost the fauna that had formerly used the
                    > marshlands for
                    > > >habitat. By then they had other ways of combating the mosquitos, so
                    > the decision
                    > > >was made to close the drains by filling in the lower ends of the
                    > canals.
                    > > >
                    > > > By the time we came along drainage ditches had long since been
                    > turned into what
                    > > >looked like irrigation - in a place where irrigation didn't make
                    > sense, at least
                    > > >on our modern world.
                    > > >
                    > > > The symbol features? A good look at them tells us they are more
                    > recent even
                    > > >than the drainage ditches, since they all are tucked nicely between
                    > the ditches.
                    > > >Had they been older, the more or less random spacing of the ditches
                    > would have
                    > > >broken into the symbols.
                    > > >
                    > > > So, what did they end up being? Our best guess is muskrat lodges.
                    > Muskrats are
                    > > >kin to beavers and are very industrious in terraforming things to
                    > suit
                    > > >themselves. They make lodges in marshy areas(but not dams), and
                    have
                    > the
                    > > >entrances under water as often as not. If they need to, they dig
                    > their own
                    > > >ditches around their lodges. They also dig ditches so that they can
                    > swim as much
                    > > >as possible. All in all, it is a pretty certain thing that the
                    > muskrats did
                    > > >them.
                    > > >
                    > > > Google Earth and Bing both flatten out features, so the lodges
                    > appear as flat
                    > > >islands.
                    > > >
                    > > > We need to take this all as an object lesson: We cannot trust that
                    > what we see
                    > > >on GE is a true representation.
                    > > >
                    > > > As to the big canals in the Gulf, we are now aware of how much
                    > damage has been
                    > > >done to the bayou areas, how much land has been lost due to human
                    > activity. That
                    > > >is one reason Katrina did so much damage - there just wasn't enough
                    > barrier land
                    > > >anymore. So the submerged ones seem to have an explanation as to
                    why
                    > they are
                    > > >submerged: The wave action obliterated the crests of the canal
                    berms.
                    > > >
                    > > > But what ARE they?
                    > > >
                    > > > After finding mundane explanations for the other two, John and I
                    are
                    > beaten up
                    > > >enough to admit there is probably a mundane explanation for them,
                    > too. So, John
                    > > >is closing down his site shortly, and I will be closing down the
                    > blog, too. I
                    > > >posted there about the "mosquito ditches," and expect that traffic
                    > will cease
                    > > >even if we kept the sites open.
                    > > >
                    > > > So, this is a mea culpa. We were wrong.
                    > > >
                    > > > Sorry to get everyone's hopes up.
                    > > >
                    > > > Take care. I will still be around...
                    > > >
                    > > > Steve
                    > > >
                    > >
                    >
                  • Ted Sojka
                    The water irrigation canals at Machu Pichu are grand in design as are the ones that allowed raised bed gardening at tihuanaco. The peach trees the Hopi had
                    Message 9 of 23 , Dec 7, 2010
                      The water irrigation canals at Machu Pichu are grand in design as are the ones that allowed raised bed gardening at tihuanaco.   The peach trees the Hopi had along the river were irrigated with canals until Kit Carson cut them down to force them out of their home area.  There is lots of canal work done in the Americas, just not those Jersey canals dug by dredge in the steam era and beyond.   

                      TS
                      On Dec 7, 2010, at 11:16 AM, Rick O wrote:

                      This is going to be a bit of a hodge podge, but time simply refuses to
                      let me be thorough or organized today.

                      1. If I've accomplished nothing else with the Oopa Loopa Cafe, I'm proud
                      to help guide folks like Lonni to this group. I'm working on Fritz
                      Zimmerman.

                      2. The cumulative evidence is leaning towards a very sophisticated water
                      management knowledge and technology among ancient Americans, possibly to
                      even include water wheels to do work (e.g., Puma Punto, Palenque, Machu
                      Pichu). So canals / irrigation / drainage are far from eliminated as
                      possible ancient works.

                      3. Valdimar, glad you finally got here. We need your bird's eye view.

                      4. An announcement: Mary Sutherland has discovered what may be a
                      previously undocumented "snake" effigy near Burlington, WI. More as I
                      get more, but this is pretty close to the site where the Vorhees plates
                      were found and there was a thunderbird effigy nearby in historic times
                      (still kind of sorta almost maybe a little visible in Google Earth).

                      5. I seem to recall a specific mention of "grapes" in Leiffet Saga,
                      someone please correct me if I'm wrong. Even during the Maunder Maximum,
                      that would put Vinland no further north than about Nova Scotia and far
                      more likely somewhere between Naragansett and Chesapeake (the latter
                      being my own latitude).

                      Enjoy. Keep the thinking caps spining

                      Oz
                      --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
                      <beldingenglish@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > Before their posts get buried farther under the flood of recent posts,
                      I
                      > want to thank co-host Vince Barrows (New Orleans), Ted Sojka (Iowa) ,
                      > Jamey (Georgia?) and others here for the excellent comments/links and
                      > encouraging responses after the closing of the Ancient Canalbuilders
                      web
                      > sites (which hopefully is temporary). It is from my personal interest
                      > of global intent to hope the cooperative diffusionist research
                      continues
                      > into ancient intra-continental canals, and also intercontinental
                      canals
                      > and channels between the Americas and beyond. I need to find time to
                      > explore some of the older data on ancient canals in the areas of S.
                      > Carolina, Arizona, Louisiana, etc. that Vince sent. Vince's work as
                      an
                      > engineer, and having not long ago relocated from the Cahokia area of
                      > Illinoios-Missouri to New Orleans, is a good candicate to do ground
                      > (swamp/bayou) work in liason with higher tech imagery on natural or
                      > man-made water routes in lieu of varying human and climate changes,
                      > weather disasters. Thanks too, Vince for adding the Chapter VI
                      article
                      > by Emil W. Haury under the Ancient Canal
                      > <http://www.scribd.com/doc/44631409/Snaketown-Canal> section of our
                      > Links
                      > <http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ancient_waterways_society/links>
                      > page that you titled: Snaketown - central Arizona prehistoric
                      > irrigation canals: 
                      http://www.scribd.com/doc/44631409/Snaketown-Canal
                      > <http://www.scribd.com/doc/44631409/Snaketown-Canal>
                      >
                      > In my last Post re: Beothuks in Iceland, I sent an incorrect link to
                      > Paper No. The Last Expedition: The Kensington Runestone I mentioned
                      > w/photos of Icelandic boundary holestones, maps, etc, and links to
                      more
                      > articles below some might dig for clues to more on the far regions of
                      N.
                      > America.. The correct one:
                      > http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_3.3propertyboundarylines.htm
                      > <http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_3.3propertyboundarylines.htm>
                      > (bottom of the page articles)
                      >
                      > CONTENTS
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > 1. Introduction <http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_1.introduction.htm>
                      >
                      > 2. Norse settlement on the east coast of North America
                      >
                      > 2.1 Labrador place names and Ari of Holum
                      > <http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_2.1labradorplacenames.htm>
                      >
                      > 2.2 L'anse aux Meadows
                      > <http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_2.2lanseauxmeadows.htm>
                      >
                      > 2.3 Norse in the St. Lawrence Valley
                      > <http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_2.3norseinthest.lawrencevalley.htm>
                      >
                      > 2.4 The Bishop's voyage
                      > <http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_2.4thebishopsvoyage.htm>
                      >
                      > 3. Evidence for Norse settlement in the mid continent
                      >
                      > 3.1 Holestones and the Kensington runestone
                      > <http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_3.1holestones.htm>
                      >
                      > 3.2 The Whetstone River holestones
                      > <http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_3.2thewhetstoneriverholestones.htm>
                      >
                      > 3.3 Property boundary lines and the Graenaveldi
                      > <http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_3.3propertyboundarylines.htm>
                      >
                      > 3.4 Knutson's search for the Graenaveldi
                      > <http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_3.4knutsonssearch.htm>
                      >
                      > 3.5 Appendix: The Kensington inscription: word-by-word
                      translation
                      > <http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_3.5appendix.htm>
                      >
                      > 4. End Notes <http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_4.endnotes.htm>
                      >
                      >
                      > Susan
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Vincent Barrows
                      > v_barrows@ wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Steve and all;
                      > > It is correct that we moderns have constructed canals for purposes
                      of
                      > draining
                      > > swamps, building pipelines, roadways, right of ways, property
                      > boundaries. The
                      > > following link includes some information about modern canal
                      building.
                      > This
                      > > shows that the majority of mosquito drainage canals were built in
                      the
                      > early
                      > > 1900s.
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      http://www.coastalguide.com/IntraCoastalWaterway/SouthCarolinaCanals.sht\
                      \
                      > ml
                      > >
                      > > Rafinesque in 1838 wrote "But our monuments do not merely consist in
                      > such mounds
                      > > or tumuli, since we find besides in North America, ruins of cities,
                      > some of
                      > > which were walled with earth or even stones, real forts or citadels,
                      > temples and
                      > > altars of all shapes, but chiefly circular, square or polygonal,
                      some
                      > > elliptical, hexagonal, octagonal, &c., quite regularly pointing to
                      the
                      > cardinal
                      > > points. We have also traces of buildings, foundations, roads,
                      avenues,
                      > > causeways, canals, bridges, dromes, or racecourses, pillars and
                      > pyramids, wells,
                      > > pits, arenas, &c. And of these not a few, but hundreds of them, many
                      > of which
                      > > are unsurveyed and undescribed as yet. "
                      > >
                      > > Some prehistoric humans constructed canals for architectural and
                      > > irrigation purposes. Gladwin discusses an archaeological site report
                      > from
                      > > Arizona that discusses Hohokam irrigation canals. These canals were
                      > built and
                      > > rebuilt in prehistoric times to irrigate arid desert farmland.
                      William
                      > Morgan
                      > > also has published Prehistoric Architecture in the Eastern United
                      > States and
                      > > shows examples of canals and moats. His book uses survey data from
                      > 1830's
                      > > (Squier and Davis) to illustrate examples of mound sites with
                      evidence
                      > of
                      > > manmade canals and waterscapes.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Respectfully;
                      > > Vince
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ________________________________
                      > > From: Susan beldingenglish@
                      > > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                      > > Sent: Fri, December 3, 2010 8:35:11 PM
                      > > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: "Ancient Canals?"
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Steve and All,
                      > > The public admissions and closing down of the Ancient Canal Builders
                      > in America
                      > > project and web sites when holes were found in the research
                      > demonstrates to me
                      > > sound scientific practices as well as high integrity and humility.
                      > > Considerable obvious effort has been made by your research team and
                      > I've no
                      > > doubt members of the team are burnt out. I doubt that any of you are
                      > denying
                      > > that substantial numbers of canals, perhaps canal networks, were in
                      > existence
                      > > hundreds, perhaps thousands of years ago with remnants of
                      > scientifically
                      > > provable evidence yet to be discovered and tested by underwater
                      > archaeologists,
                      > > geoligists and others such as Jensen , you and those willing to lay
                      > your time
                      > > and credibility on the line to consider and explore such
                      > possibilities.
                      > > I continue to believe America was riddled with ancient,
                      > > humanly-constructed canals, some very likely leaving traces and
                      > scientifically
                      > > provable evidence for underwater archaeologists, geoligists and
                      others
                      > > like Jensen, Garcia willing to explore such possibilities.
                      Riverways,
                      > intra-
                      > > and intercontinental waterways, humanly constructed/altered canals
                      are
                      > at the
                      > > very roots of diffusionist exploration and to me, advanced
                      > socio-cultural
                      > > research.
                      > > I think a parallel here: as is well known and voiced by avocational,
                      > academic
                      > > researchers, old texts and many of the populace around the Lake
                      > Superior Copper
                      > > Country.....most, if not all historic copper mines originated from
                      > ancient
                      > > copper pits and mines. I'd be very surprised if that did not hold
                      true
                      > to a
                      > > certain extent with contemporary canals where water routes have not
                      > been totally
                      > > altered from centuries, millinnea ago. Unlike the copper mining
                      > parallel
                      > > where tbe physical evidence of discarded hammerstones was present
                      > until a few
                      > > decades ago, imperical evidence for ancient canals is far more
                      > difficult. If
                      > > such canals existed and evidence no longer remains, it will be
                      another
                      > case
                      > > where ignorance will continue to prevail, knowledge of ancient human
                      > genius is
                      > > lost to time, population expansion, and the increasingly total
                      > technological
                      > > dominance of the natural world continues.
                      > > I commend the efforts of the Ancient Canal Builders team and look
                      > forward to
                      > > Steve and any of you here at AWS continuing into the roots and
                      > > scientifically-based intent of some of the fine research the
                      > courageous team
                      > > began not very long ago.
                      > > Thanks to so many of you here for the interesting Posts, subjects,
                      and
                      > responses
                      > > to each others' letters here the past couple of weeks. It is a
                      > pleasure to be a
                      > > member and a co-host of this site.
                      > > Susan
                      > >
                      > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "bigalemc2"
                      puppet@
                      > > wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > > Well, folks, the ancient canals aren't ancient, after all.
                      > > >
                      > > > We finally were able to find explanations for them and are
                      satisfied
                      > that we
                      > > >were wrong.
                      > > >
                      > > > We found out that the long parallel canals were created in the
                      > 1915-1960 period
                      > > >as ways of combating mosquitos. Beginning with New Jersey, the
                      > coastal states
                      > > >found that literally "draining the swamps" worked quite well as the
                      > backbone of
                      > > >efforts to make the coast more congenial for humans.
                      > > >
                      > > > Why did we think they were not mosquito abatement measures? We saw
                      > on many
                      > > >sites that the canals did not reach to the seashore. The canals
                      were
                      > most often
                      > > >dead-headed short of the shore. If the bottom end is not open,
                      > drainage doesn't
                      > > >happen. These dead-end canals thus looked like irrigation canals.
                      > > >
                      > > > What we didn't know was that in the 1960s they found out they'd
                      > changed the
                      > > >ecosystem and had lost the fauna that had formerly used the
                      > marshlands for
                      > > >habitat. By then they had other ways of combating the mosquitos, so
                      > the decision
                      > > >was made to close the drains by filling in the lower ends of the
                      > canals.
                      > > >
                      > > > By the time we came along drainage ditches had long since been
                      > turned into what
                      > > >looked like irrigation - in a place where irrigation didn't make
                      > sense, at least
                      > > >on our modern world.
                      > > >
                      > > > The symbol features? A good look at them tells us they are more
                      > recent even
                      > > >than the drainage ditches, since they all are tucked nicely between
                      > the ditches.
                      > > >Had they been older, the more or less random spacing of the ditches
                      > would have
                      > > >broken into the symbols.
                      > > >
                      > > > So, what did they end up being? Our best guess is muskrat lodges.
                      > Muskrats are
                      > > >kin to beavers and are very industrious in terraforming things to
                      > suit
                      > > >themselves. They make lodges in marshy areas(but not dams), and
                      have
                      > the
                      > > >entrances under water as often as not. If they need to, they dig
                      > their own
                      > > >ditches around their lodges. They also dig ditches so that they can
                      > swim as much
                      > > >as possible. All in all, it is a pretty certain thing that the
                      > muskrats did
                      > > >them.
                      > > >
                      > > > Google Earth and Bing both flatten out features, so the lodges
                      > appear as flat
                      > > >islands.
                      > > >
                      > > > We need to take this all as an object lesson: We cannot trust that
                      > what we see
                      > > >on GE is a true representation.
                      > > >
                      > > > As to the big canals in the Gulf, we are now aware of how much
                      > damage has been
                      > > >done to the bayou areas, how much land has been lost due to human
                      > activity. That
                      > > >is one reason Katrina did so much damage - there just wasn't enough
                      > barrier land
                      > > >anymore. So the submerged ones seem to have an explanation as to
                      why
                      > they are
                      > > >submerged: The wave action obliterated the crests of the canal
                      berms.
                      > > >
                      > > > But what ARE they?
                      > > >
                      > > > After finding mundane explanations for the other two, John and I
                      are
                      > beaten up
                      > > >enough to admit there is probably a mundane explanation for them,
                      > too. So, John
                      > > >is closing down his site shortly, and I will be closing down the
                      > blog, too. I
                      > > >posted there about the "mosquito ditches," and expect that traffic
                      > will cease
                      > > >even if we kept the sites open.
                      > > >
                      > > > So, this is a mea culpa. We were wrong.
                      > > >
                      > > > Sorry to get everyone's hopes up.
                      > > >
                      > > > Take care. I will still be around...
                      > > >
                      > > > Steve
                      > > >
                      > >
                      >


                    • Richard Murray
                      On 12/7/2010 1:20 PM, Ted Sojka wrote: Don t forget the elaborate water canals throughout the Phoenix, Arizona area. Richard
                      Message 10 of 23 , Dec 7, 2010
                        On 12/7/2010 1:20 PM, Ted Sojka wrote:
                        Don't forget the elaborate water canals throughout the Phoenix, Arizona area.
                        Richard

                         

                        The water irrigation canals at Machu Pichu are grand in design as are the ones that allowed raised bed gardening at tihuanaco.   The peach trees the Hopi had along the river were irrigated with canals until Kit Carson cut them down to force them out of their home area.  There is lots of canal work done in the Americas, just not those Jersey canals dug by dredge in the steam era and beyond.   


                        TS
                        On Dec 7, 2010, at 11:16 AM, Rick O wrote:

                        This is going to be a bit of a hodge podge, but time simply refuses to
                        let me be thorough or organized today.

                        1. If I've accomplished nothing else with the Oopa Loopa Cafe, I'm proud
                        to help guide folks like Lonni to this group. I'm working on Fritz
                        Zimmerman.

                        2. The cumulative evidence is leaning towards a very sophisticated water
                        management knowledge and technology among ancient Americans, possibly to
                        even include water wheels to do work (e.g., Puma Punto, Palenque, Machu
                        Pichu). So canals / irrigation / drainage are far from eliminated as
                        possible ancient works.

                        3. Valdimar, glad you finally got here. We need your bird's eye view.

                        4. An announcement: Mary Sutherland has discovered what may be a
                        previously undocumented "snake" effigy near Burlington, WI. More as I
                        get more, but this is pretty close to the site where the Vorhees plates
                        were found and there was a thunderbird effigy nearby in historic times
                        (still kind of sorta almost maybe a little visible in Google Earth).

                        5. I seem to recall a specific mention of "grapes" in Leiffet Saga,
                        someone please correct me if I'm wrong. Even during the Maunder Maximum,
                        that would put Vinland no further north than about Nova Scotia and far
                        more likely somewhere between Naragansett and Chesapeake (the latter
                        being my own latitude).

                        Enjoy. Keep the thinking caps spining

                        Oz
                        --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan"
                        <beldingenglish@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Before their posts get buried farther under the flood of recent posts,
                        I
                        > want to thank co-host Vince Barrows (New Orleans), Ted Sojka (Iowa) ,
                        > Jamey (Georgia?) and others here for the excellent comments/links and
                        > encouraging responses after the closing of the Ancient Canalbuilders
                        web
                        > sites (which hopefully is temporary). It is from my personal interest
                        > of global intent to hope the cooperative diffusionist research
                        continues
                        > into ancient intra-continental canals, and also intercontinental
                        canals
                        > and channels between the Americas and beyond. I need to find time to
                        > explore some of the older data on ancient canals in the areas of S.
                        > Carolina, Arizona, Louisiana, etc. that Vince sent. Vince's work as
                        an
                        > engineer, and having not long ago relocated from the Cahokia area of
                        > Illinoios-Missouri to New Orleans, is a good candicate to do ground
                        > (swamp/bayou) work in liason with higher tech imagery on natural or
                        > man-made water routes in lieu of varying human and climate changes,
                        > weather disasters. Thanks too, Vince for adding the Chapter VI
                        article
                        > by Emil W. Haury under the Ancient Canal
                        > <http://www.scribd.com/doc/44631409/Snaketown-Canal> section of our
                        > Links
                        > <http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ancient_waterways_society/links>
                        > page that you titled: Snaketown - central Arizona prehistoric
                        > irrigation canals: 
                        http://www.scribd.com/doc/44631409/Snaketown-Canal
                        > <http://www.scribd.com/doc/44631409/Snaketown-Canal>
                        >
                        > In my last Post re: Beothuks in Iceland, I sent an incorrect link to
                        > Paper No. The Last Expedition: The Kensington Runestone I mentioned
                        > w/photos of Icelandic boundary holestones, maps, etc, and links to
                        more
                        > articles below some might dig for clues to more on the far regions of
                        N.
                        > America.. The correct one:
                        > http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_3.3propertyboundarylines.htm
                        > <http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_3.3propertyboundarylines.htm>
                        > (bottom of the page articles)
                        >
                        > CONTENTS
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > 1. Introduction <http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_1.introduction.htm>
                        >
                        > 2. Norse settlement on the east coast of North America
                        >
                        > 2.1 Labrador place names and Ari of Holum
                        > <http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_2.1labradorplacenames.htm>
                        >
                        > 2.2 L'anse aux Meadows
                        > <http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_2.2lanseauxmeadows.htm>
                        >
                        > 2.3 Norse in the St. Lawrence Valley
                        > <http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_2.3norseinthest.lawrencevalley.htm>
                        >
                        > 2.4 The Bishop's voyage
                        > <http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_2.4thebishopsvoyage.htm>
                        >
                        > 3. Evidence for Norse settlement in the mid continent
                        >
                        > 3.1 Holestones and the Kensington runestone
                        > <http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_3.1holestones.htm>
                        >
                        > 3.2 The Whetstone River holestones
                        > <http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_3.2thewhetstoneriverholestones.htm>
                        >
                        > 3.3 Property boundary lines and the Graenaveldi
                        > <http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_3.3propertyboundarylines.htm>
                        >
                        > 3.4 Knutson's search for the Graenaveldi
                        > <http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_3.4knutsonssearch.htm>
                        >
                        > 3.5 Appendix: The Kensington inscription: word-by-word
                        translation
                        > <http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_3.5appendix.htm>
                        >
                        > 4. End Notes <http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_4.endnotes.htm>
                        >
                        >
                        > Susan
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Vincent Barrows
                        > v_barrows@ wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Steve and all;
                        > > It is correct that we moderns have constructed canals for purposes
                        of
                        > draining
                        > > swamps, building pipelines, roadways, right of ways, property
                        > boundaries. The
                        > > following link includes some information about modern canal
                        building.
                        > This
                        > > shows that the majority of mosquito drainage canals were built in
                        the
                        > early
                        > > 1900s.
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        http://www.coastalguide.com/IntraCoastalWaterway/SouthCarolinaCanals.sht\
                        \
                        > ml
                        > >
                        > > Rafinesque in 1838 wrote "But our monuments do not merely consist in
                        > such mounds
                        > > or tumuli, since we find besides in North America, ruins of cities,
                        > some of
                        > > which were walled with earth or even stones, real forts or citadels,
                        > temples and
                        > > altars of all shapes, but chiefly circular, square or polygonal,
                        some
                        > > elliptical, hexagonal, octagonal, &c., quite regularly pointing to
                        the
                        > cardinal
                        > > points. We have also traces of buildings, foundations, roads,
                        avenues,
                        > > causeways, canals, bridges, dromes, or racecourses, pillars and
                        > pyramids, wells,
                        > > pits, arenas, &c. And of these not a few, but hundreds of them, many
                        > of which
                        > > are unsurveyed and undescribed as yet. "
                        > >
                        > > Some prehistoric humans constructed canals for architectural and
                        > > irrigation purposes. Gladwin discusses an archaeological site report
                        > from
                        > > Arizona that discusses Hohokam irrigation canals. These canals were
                        > built and
                        > > rebuilt in prehistoric times to irrigate arid desert farmland.
                        William
                        > Morgan
                        > > also has published Prehistoric Architecture in the Eastern United
                        > States and
                        > > shows examples of canals and moats. His book uses survey data from
                        > 1830's
                        > > (Squier and Davis) to illustrate examples of mound sites with
                        evidence
                        > of
                        > > manmade canals and waterscapes.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Respectfully;
                        > > Vince
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ________________________________
                        > > From: Susan beldingenglish@
                        > > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                        > > Sent: Fri, December 3, 2010 8:35:11 PM
                        > > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: "Ancient Canals?"
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Steve and All,
                        > > The public admissions and closing down of the Ancient Canal Builders
                        > in America
                        > > project and web sites when holes were found in the research
                        > demonstrates to me
                        > > sound scientific practices as well as high integrity and humility.
                        > > Considerable obvious effort has been made by your research team and
                        > I've no
                        > > doubt members of the team are burnt out. I doubt that any of you are
                        > denying
                        > > that substantial numbers of canals, perhaps canal networks, were in
                        > existence
                        > > hundreds, perhaps thousands of years ago with remnants of
                        > scientifically
                        > > provable evidence yet to be discovered and tested by underwater
                        > archaeologists,
                        > > geoligists and others such as Jensen , you and those willing to lay
                        > your time
                        > > and credibility on the line to consider and explore such
                        > possibilities.
                        > > I continue to believe America was riddled with ancient,
                        > > humanly-constructed canals, some very likely leaving traces and
                        > scientifically
                        > > provable evidence for underwater archaeologists, geoligists and
                        others
                        > > like Jensen, Garcia willing to explore such possibilities.
                        Riverways,
                        > intra-
                        > > and intercontinental waterways, humanly constructed/altered canals
                        are
                        > at the
                        > > very roots of diffusionist exploration and to me, advanced
                        > socio-cultural
                        > > research.
                        > > I think a parallel here: as is well known and voiced by avocational,
                        > academic
                        > > researchers, old texts and many of the populace around the Lake
                        > Superior Copper
                        > > Country.....most, if not all historic copper mines originated from
                        > ancient
                        > > copper pits and mines. I'd be very surprised if that did not hold
                        true
                        > to a
                        > > certain extent with contemporary canals where water routes have not
                        > been totally
                        > > altered from centuries, millinnea ago. Unlike the copper mining
                        > parallel
                        > > where tbe physical evidence of discarded hammerstones was present
                        > until a few
                        > > decades ago, imperical evidence for ancient canals is far more
                        > difficult. If
                        > > such canals existed and evidence no longer remains, it will be
                        another
                        > case
                        > > where ignorance will continue to prevail, knowledge of ancient human
                        > genius is
                        > > lost to time, population expansion, and the increasingly total
                        > technological
                        > > dominance of the natural world continues.
                        > > I commend the efforts of the Ancient Canal Builders team and look
                        > forward to
                        > > Steve and any of you here at AWS continuing into the roots and
                        > > scientifically-based intent of some of the fine research the
                        > courageous team
                        > > began not very long ago.
                        > > Thanks to so many of you here for the interesting Posts, subjects,
                        and
                        > responses
                        > > to each others' letters here the past couple of weeks. It is a
                        > pleasure to be a
                        > > member and a co-host of this site.
                        > > Susan
                        > >
                        > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "bigalemc2"
                        puppet@
                        > > wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > Well, folks, the ancient canals aren't ancient, after all.
                        > > >
                        > > > We finally were able to find explanations for them and are
                        satisfied
                        > that we
                        > > >were wrong.
                        > > >
                        > > > We found out that the long parallel canals were created in the
                        > 1915-1960 period
                        > > >as ways of combating mosquitos. Beginning with New Jersey, the
                        > coastal states
                        > > >found that literally "draining the swamps" worked quite well as the
                        > backbone of
                        > > >efforts to make the coast more congenial for humans.
                        > > >
                        > > > Why did we think they were not mosquito abatement measures? We saw
                        > on many
                        > > >sites that the canals did not reach to the seashore. The canals
                        were
                        > most often
                        > > >dead-headed short of the shore. If the bottom end is not open,
                        > drainage doesn't
                        > > >happen. These dead-end canals thus looked like irrigation canals.
                        > > >
                        > > > What we didn't know was that in the 1960s they found out they'd
                        > changed the
                        > > >ecosystem and had lost the fauna that had formerly used the
                        > marshlands for
                        > > >habitat. By then they had other ways of combating the mosquitos, so
                        > the decision
                        > > >was made to close the drains by filling in the lower ends of the
                        > canals.
                        > > >
                        > > > By the time we came along drainage ditches had long since been
                        > turned into what
                        > > >looked like irrigation - in a place where irrigation didn't make
                        > sense, at least
                        > > >on our modern world.
                        > > >
                        > > > The symbol features? A good look at them tells us they are more
                        > recent even
                        > > >than the drainage ditches, since they all are tucked nicely between
                        > the ditches.
                        > > >Had they been older, the more or less random spacing of the ditches
                        > would have
                        > > >broken into the symbols.
                        > > >
                        > > > So, what did they end up being? Our best guess is muskrat lodges.
                        > Muskrats are
                        > > >kin to beavers and are very industrious in terraforming things to
                        > suit
                        > > >themselves. They make lodges in marshy areas(but not dams), and
                        have
                        > the
                        > > >entrances under water as often as not. If they need to, they dig
                        > their own
                        > > >ditches around their lodges. They also dig ditches so that they can
                        > swim as much
                        > > >as possible. All in all, it is a pretty certain thing that the
                        > muskrats did
                        > > >them.
                        > > >
                        > > > Google Earth and Bing both flatten out features, so the lodges
                        > appear as flat
                        > > >islands.
                        > > >
                        > > > We need to take this all as an object lesson: We cannot trust that
                        > what we see
                        > > >on GE is a true representation.
                        > > >
                        > > > As to the big canals in the Gulf, we are now aware of how much
                        > damage has been
                        > > >done to the bayou areas, how much land has been lost due to human
                        > activity. That
                        > > >is one reason Katrina did so much damage - there just wasn't enough
                        > barrier land
                        > > >anymore. So the submerged ones seem to have an explanation as to
                        why
                        > they are
                        > > >submerged: The wave action obliterated the crests of the canal
                        berms.
                        > > >
                        > > > But what ARE they?
                        > > >
                        > > > After finding mundane explanations for the other two, John and I
                        are
                        > beaten up
                        > > >enough to admit there is probably a mundane explanation for them,
                        > too. So, John
                        > > >is closing down his site shortly, and I will be closing down the
                        > blog, too. I
                        > > >posted there about the "mosquito ditches," and expect that traffic
                        > will cease
                        > > >even if we kept the sites open.
                        > > >
                        > > > So, this is a mea culpa. We were wrong.
                        > > >
                        > > > Sorry to get everyone's hopes up.
                        > > >
                        > > > Take care. I will still be around...
                        > > >
                        > > > Steve
                        > > >
                        > >
                        >



                      • Susan
                        --A hearty greeting to two more new members the last couple of days---Valdimar Samuelsson from Iceland, and R. Taylor (jenmaxryan
                        Message 11 of 23 , Dec 7, 2010
                          --A hearty greeting to two more new members the last couple of days---Valdimar Samuelsson from Iceland, and R. Taylor (jenmaxryan) from Nova Scotia! We hope you will enjoy our group.
                           
                          --I'd joined NSExplore a few weeks prior to flying to the 2008 Atlantic Conference in Halifax, Nova Scotia, which several other AWS members attended.  Following the conference, Ancient Waterways member Terry Deveau led a five day tour to intriguing ancient sites along beautiful, rugged Nova Scotian mountains and shorelines.  Terry is an overseer of the excellent 300 member group.  Some here might recall...Terry, Vince, and I each had corresponded with Dr. Gordon Freeman (Alberta) just before the 2009 release of  Canada's Stonehenge-Astounding Archaeological Discoveries in Canada, England : http://www.google.com/search?q=canada%27s+stonehenge&rls=com.microsoft:en-us:IE-Address&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1 I7RNWN_en
                          Freeman had relayed comments to our group a bit about their work
                          at the possible 5000 year old site that he and his wife have been protecting on-site for decades from an old trailer while
                          doing scientific research.  Has anyone heard of any recent developments there?
                           
                          Good hearing from you again, Steve Steigerwald (Aztalan Mounds webmaster)...and Richard Murray (Massachuetts).
                          So many Posts have been submitted lately it has been difficult keeping track, but I think Vince sent a post mentioning the Hohokum Canals of Arizona. I found this interactive map site for the ancient (Phoenix area) Valley of the Sun : http://www.gemland.com/hohokam.htm
                           
                          --Thanks, Rick Osmon for 'plugging' this group.  Never having Thursday evenings off, two eye surgeries, and a malfunctioning computer, I'd not tuned into the Oopa Loopa Cafe radioblog for some time.  This group has not received a Post from you about program changes, the Oopa Loopa link I had no longer seemed active. Earlier today found your new live streaming video Oopa Loopa Cafe.  Is this the main link, Rick? This one hour interview from the end of August is with author  Robert J. Miller from the Lewis & Clark Law School in Portland, Oregon on "Manifest Destiny": http://www.livestream.com/oopaloopacafe  Keep us posted,  Rick, on times, dates (still Thursdays?), etc., especially pertaining to ancient navigation, waterways, etc.
                           
                          --Steve Garcia, great to see the Ancient Canal Builders in America web site back up:  http://www.ancientcanalbuilders.com/  Perhaps you will also re-establish the accompanying ACB commentary site you'd set up at Charles Bruns' suggestion.
                          Maybe it could be put on the main Ancient Canal Builder site. 
                           
                          Especially for the Canadian members here, with this Saturday coming up fast, I am including here a reminder about the documentary Steve Garcia told us about last week (Post #1951); he'd received an email w/link to video trailer from author, Paul Chiasson.   "Mysterious Ruins-Cape Breton" airs in Canada on the History Channel Saturday,  December 11th: http://www.myspace.com/video/496952816/mysterious-ruins-cape-breton-trailer/105485432 
                           
                          With over forty incoming posts the past week, if any of you are feeling overwhelmed at the number coming in, you may make changes in how you receive (or do not receive) Posts to your mailbox.... ...by clicking Members , then Edit Membership to:
                          "Daily Digest"---all messages for the day go to your emailbox in a single email rather than "Individual Emails".  Or, come of you may prefer "No Emails" or "Special Notices Only". Using the latter two options, members will need to click into the site regularly to read Posts.  Please, too,  make corrections to your membership if your email address changes.
                           
                          Susan, a co-host

                          --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Richard Murray <murph3333@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > On 12/7/2010 1:20 PM, Ted Sojka wrote:
                          > Don't forget the elaborate water canals throughout the Phoenix, Arizona
                          > area.
                          > Richard
                          >
                          > > The water irrigation canals at Machu Pichu are grand in design as are
                          > > the ones that allowed raised bed gardening at tihuanaco. The peach
                          > > trees the Hopi had along the river were irrigated with canals until
                          > > Kit Carson cut them down to force them out of their home area. There
                          > > is lots of canal work done in the Americas, just not those Jersey
                          > > canals dug by dredge in the steam era and beyond.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > TS
                          > > On Dec 7, 2010, at 11:16 AM, Rick O wrote:
                          > >
                          > >> This is going to be a bit of a hodge podge, but time simply refuses to
                          > >> let me be thorough or organized today.
                          > >>
                          > >> 1. If I've accomplished nothing else with the Oopa Loopa Cafe, I'm proud
                          > >> to help guide folks like Lonni to this group. I'm working on Fritz
                          > >> Zimmerman.
                          > >>
                          > >> 2. The cumulative evidence is leaning towards a very sophisticated water
                          > >> management knowledge and technology among ancient Americans, possibly to
                          > >> even include water wheels to do work (e.g., Puma Punto, Palenque, Machu
                          > >> Pichu). So canals / irrigation / drainage are far from eliminated as
                          > >> possible ancient works.
                          > >>
                          > >> 3. Valdimar, glad you finally got here. We need your bird's eye view.
                          > >>
                          > >> 4. An announcement: Mary Sutherland has discovered what may be a
                          > >> previously undocumented "snake" effigy near Burlington, WI. More as I
                          > >> get more, but this is pretty close to the site where the Vorhees plates
                          > >> were found and there was a thunderbird effigy nearby in historic times
                          > >> (still kind of sorta almost maybe a little visible in Google Earth).
                          > >>
                          > >> 5. I seem to recall a specific mention of "grapes" in Leiffet Saga,
                          > >> someone please correct me if I'm wrong. Even during the Maunder Maximum,
                          > >> that would put Vinland no further north than about Nova Scotia and far
                          > >> more likely somewhere between Naragansett and Chesapeake (the latter
                          > >> being my own latitude).
                          > >>
                          > >> Enjoy. Keep the thinking caps spining
                          > >>
                          > >> Oz
                          > >> --- Inancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                          > >> <mailto:ancient_waterways_society%40yahoogroups.com>, "Susan"
                          > >> beldingenglish@ wrote:
                          > >> >
                          > >> >
                          > >> > Before their posts get buried farther under the flood of recent posts,
                          > >> I
                          > >> > want to thank co-host Vince Barrows (New Orleans), Ted Sojka (Iowa) ,
                          > >> > Jamey (Georgia?) and others here for the excellent comments/links and
                          > >> > encouraging responses after the closing of the Ancient Canalbuilders
                          > >> web
                          > >> > sites (which hopefully is temporary). It is from my personal interest
                          > >> > of global intent to hope the cooperative diffusionist research
                          > >> continues
                          > >> > into ancient intra-continental canals, and also intercontinental
                          > >> canals
                          > >> > and channels between the Americas and beyond. I need to find time to
                          > >> > explore some of the older data on ancient canals in the areas of S.
                          > >> > Carolina, Arizona, Louisiana, etc. that Vince sent. Vince's work as
                          > >> an
                          > >> > engineer, and having not long ago relocated from the Cahokia area of
                          > >> > Illinoios-Missouri to New Orleans, is a good candicate to do ground
                          > >> > (swamp/bayou) work in liason with higher tech imagery on natural or
                          > >> > man-made water routes in lieu of varying human and climate changes,
                          > >> > weather disasters. Thanks too, Vince for adding the Chapter VI
                          > >> article
                          > >> > by Emil W. Haury under the Ancient Canal
                          > >> > <http://www.scribd.com/doc/44631409/Snaketown-Canal> section of our
                          > >> > Links
                          > >> > <http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/ancient_waterways_society/links>
                          > >> > page that you titled: Snaketown - central Arizona prehistoric
                          > >> > irrigation canals:
                          > >> http://www.scribd.com/doc/44631409/Snaketown-Canal
                          > >> > <http://www.scribd.com/doc/44631409/Snaketown-Canal>
                          > >> >
                          > >> > In my last Post re: Beothuks in Iceland, I sent an incorrect link to
                          > >> > Paper No. The Last Expedition: The Kensington Runestone I mentioned
                          > >> > w/photos of Icelandic boundary holestones, maps, etc, and links to
                          > >> more
                          > >> > articles below some might dig for clues to more on the far regions of
                          > >> N.
                          > >> > America.. The correct one:
                          > >> >http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_3.3propertyboundarylines.htm
                          > >> > <http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_3.3propertyboundarylines.htm>
                          > >> > (bottom of the page articles)
                          > >> >
                          > >> > CONTENTS
                          > >> >
                          > >> >
                          > >> >
                          > >> > 1. Introduction <http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_1.introduction.htm>
                          > >> >
                          > >> > 2. Norse settlement on the east coast of North America
                          > >> >
                          > >> > 2.1 Labrador place names and Ari of Holum
                          > >> > <http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_2.1labradorplacenames.htm>
                          > >> >
                          > >> > 2.2 L'anse aux Meadows
                          > >> > <http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_2.2lanseauxmeadows.htm>
                          > >> >
                          > >> > 2.3 Norse in the St. Lawrence Valley
                          > >> > <http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_2.3norseinthest.lawrencevalley.htm>
                          > >> >
                          > >> > 2.4 The Bishop's voyage
                          > >> > <http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_2.4thebishopsvoyage.htm>
                          > >> >
                          > >> > 3. Evidence for Norse settlement in the mid continent
                          > >> >
                          > >> > 3.1 Holestones and the Kensington runestone
                          > >> > <http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_3.1holestones.htm>
                          > >> >
                          > >> > 3.2 The Whetstone River holestones
                          > >> > <http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_3.2thewhetstoneriverholestones.htm>
                          > >> >
                          > >> > 3.3 Property boundary lines and the Graenaveldi
                          > >> > <http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_3.3propertyboundarylines.htm>
                          > >> >
                          > >> > 3.4 Knutson's search for the Graenaveldi
                          > >> > <http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_3.4knutsonssearch.htm>
                          > >> >
                          > >> > 3.5 Appendix: The Kensington inscription: word-by-word
                          > >> translation
                          > >> > <http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_3.5appendix.htm>
                          > >> >
                          > >> > 4. End Notes <http://www.lastkings.com/paper2_4.endnotes.htm>
                          > >> >
                          > >> >
                          > >> > Susan
                          > >> >
                          > >> >
                          > >> > --- Inancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                          > >> <mailto:ancient_waterways_society%40yahoogroups.com>, Vincent Barrows
                          > >> > v_barrows@ wrote:
                          > >> > >
                          > >> > > Steve and all;
                          > >> > > It is correct that we moderns have constructed canals for purposes
                          > >> of
                          > >> > draining
                          > >> > > swamps, building pipelines, roadways, right of ways, property
                          > >> > boundaries. The
                          > >> > > following link includes some information about modern canal
                          > >> building.
                          > >> > This
                          > >> > > shows that the majority of mosquito drainage canals were built in
                          > >> the
                          > >> > early
                          > >> > > 1900s.
                          > >> > >
                          > >> > >
                          > >> >
                          > >> http://www.coastalguide.com/IntraCoastalWaterway/SouthCarolinaCanals.sht\
                          > >> \
                          > >> <http://www.coastalguide.com/IntraCoastalWaterway/SouthCarolinaCanals.sht>>
                          > >> ml
                          > >> > >
                          > >> > > Rafinesque in 1838 wrote "But our monuments do not merely consist in
                          > >> > such mounds
                          > >> > > or tumuli, since we find besides in North America, ruins of cities,
                          > >> > some of
                          > >> > > which were walled with earth or even stones, real forts or citadels,
                          > >> > temples and
                          > >> > > altars of all shapes, but chiefly circular, square or polygonal,
                          > >> some
                          > >> > > elliptical, hexagonal, octagonal, &c., quite regularly pointing to
                          > >> the
                          > >> > cardinal
                          > >> > > points. We have also traces of buildings, foundations, roads,
                          > >> avenues,
                          > >> > > causeways, canals, bridges, dromes, or racecourses, pillars and
                          > >> > pyramids, wells,
                          > >> > > pits, arenas, &c. And of these not a few, but hundreds of them, many
                          > >> > of which
                          > >> > > are unsurveyed and undescribed as yet. "
                          > >> > >
                          > >> > > Some prehistoric humans constructed canals for architectural and
                          > >> > > irrigation purposes. Gladwin discusses an archaeological site report
                          > >> > from
                          > >> > > Arizona that discusses Hohokam irrigation canals. These canals were
                          > >> > built and
                          > >> > > rebuilt in prehistoric times to irrigate arid desert farmland.
                          > >> William
                          > >> > Morgan
                          > >> > > also has published Prehistoric Architecture in the Eastern United
                          > >> > States and
                          > >> > > shows examples of canals and moats. His book uses survey data from
                          > >> > 1830's
                          > >> > > (Squier and Davis) to illustrate examples of mound sites with
                          > >> evidence
                          > >> > of
                          > >> > > manmade canals and waterscapes.
                          > >> > >
                          > >> > >
                          > >> > > Respectfully;
                          > >> > > Vince
                          > >> > >
                          > >> > >
                          > >> > >
                          > >> > > ________________________________
                          > >> > > From: Susan beldingenglish@
                          > >> > > To:ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                          > >> <mailto:ancient_waterways_society%40yahoogroups.com>
                          > >> > > Sent: Fri, December 3, 2010 8:35:11 PM
                          > >> > > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: "Ancient Canals?"
                          > >> > >
                          > >> > >
                          > >> > > Steve and All,
                          > >> > > The public admissions and closing down of the Ancient Canal Builders
                          > >> > in America
                          > >> > > project and web sites when holes were found in the research
                          > >> > demonstrates to me
                          > >> > > sound scientific practices as well as high integrity and humility.
                          > >> > > Considerable obvious effort has been made by your research team and
                          > >> > I've no
                          > >> > > doubt members of the team are burnt out. I doubt that any of you are
                          > >> > denying
                          > >> > > that substantial numbers of canals, perhaps canal networks, were in
                          > >> > existence
                          > >> > > hundreds, perhaps thousands of years ago with remnants of
                          > >> > scientifically
                          > >> > > provable evidence yet to be discovered and tested by underwater
                          > >> > archaeologists,
                          > >> > > geoligists and others such as Jensen , you and those willing to lay
                          > >> > your time
                          > >> > > and credibility on the line to consider and explore such
                          > >> > possibilities.
                          > >> > > I continue to believe America was riddled with ancient,
                          > >> > > humanly-constructed canals, some very likely leaving traces and
                          > >> > scientifically
                          > >> > > provable evidence for underwater archaeologists, geoligists and
                          > >> others
                          > >> > > like Jensen, Garcia willing to explore such possibilities.
                          > >> Riverways,
                          > >> > intra-
                          > >> > > and intercontinental waterways, humanly constructed/altered canals
                          > >> are
                          > >> > at the
                          > >> > > very roots of diffusionist exploration and to me, advanced
                          > >> > socio-cultural
                          > >> > > research.
                          > >> > > I think a parallel here: as is well known and voiced by avocational,
                          > >> > academic
                          > >> > > researchers, old texts and many of the populace around the Lake
                          > >> > Superior Copper
                          > >> > > Country.....most, if not all historic copper mines originated from
                          > >> > ancient
                          > >> > > copper pits and mines. I'd be very surprised if that did not hold
                          > >> true
                          > >> > to a
                          > >> > > certain extent with contemporary canals where water routes have not
                          > >> > been totally
                          > >> > > altered from centuries, millinnea ago. Unlike the copper mining
                          > >> > parallel
                          > >> > > where tbe physical evidence of discarded hammerstones was present
                          > >> > until a few
                          > >> > > decades ago, imperical evidence for ancient canals is far more
                          > >> > difficult. If
                          > >> > > such canals existed and evidence no longer remains, it will be
                          > >> another
                          > >> > case
                          > >> > > where ignorance will continue to prevail, knowledge of ancient human
                          > >> > genius is
                          > >> > > lost to time, population expansion, and the increasingly total
                          > >> > technological
                          > >> > > dominance of the natural world continues.
                          > >> > > I commend the efforts of the Ancient Canal Builders team and look
                          > >> > forward to
                          > >> > > Steve and any of you here at AWS continuing into the roots and
                          > >> > > scientifically-based intent of some of the fine research the
                          > >> > courageous team
                          > >> > > began not very long ago.
                          > >> > > Thanks to so many of you here for the interesting Posts, subjects,
                          > >> and
                          > >> > responses
                          > >> > > to each others' letters here the past couple of weeks. It is a
                          > >> > pleasure to be a
                          > >> > > member and a co-host of this site.
                          > >> > > Susan
                          > >> > >
                          > >> > > --- Inancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                          > >> <mailto:ancient_waterways_society%40yahoogroups.com>, "bigalemc2"
                          > >> puppet@
                          > >> > > wrote:
                          > >> > > >
                          > >> > > > Well, folks, the ancient canals aren't ancient, after all.
                          > >> > > >
                          > >> > > > We finally were able to find explanations for them and are
                          > >> satisfied
                          > >> > that we
                          > >> > > >were wrong.
                          > >> > > >
                          > >> > > > We found out that the long parallel canals were created in the
                          > >> > 1915-1960 period
                          > >> > > >as ways of combating mosquitos. Beginning with New Jersey, the
                          > >> > coastal states
                          > >> > > >found that literally "draining the swamps" worked quite well as the
                          > >> > backbone of
                          > >> > > >efforts to make the coast more congenial for humans.
                          > >> > > >
                          > >> > > > Why did we think they were not mosquito abatement measures? We saw
                          > >> > on many
                          > >> > > >sites that the canals did not reach to the seashore. The canals
                          > >> were
                          > >> > most often
                          > >> > > >dead-headed short of the shore. If the bottom end is not open,
                          > >> > drainage doesn't
                          > >> > > >happen. These dead-end canals thus looked like irrigation canals.
                          > >> > > >
                          > >> > > > What we didn't know was that in the 1960s they found out they'd
                          > >> > changed the
                          > >> > > >ecosystem and had lost the fauna that had formerly used the
                          > >> > marshlands for
                          > >> > > >habitat. By then they had other ways of combating the mosquitos, so
                          > >> > the decision
                          > >> > > >was made to close the drains by filling in the lower ends of the
                          > >> > canals.
                          > >> > > >
                          > >> > > > By the time we came along drainage ditches had long since been
                          > >> > turned into what
                          > >> > > >looked like irrigation - in a place where irrigation didn't make
                          > >> > sense, at least
                          > >> > > >on our modern world.
                          > >> > > >
                          > >> > > > The symbol features? A good look at them tells us they are more
                          > >> > recent even
                          > >> > > >than the drainage ditches, since they all are tucked nicely between
                          > >> > the ditches.
                          > >> > > >Had they been older, the more or less random spacing of the ditches
                          > >> > would have
                          > >> > > >broken into the symbols.
                          > >> > > >
                          > >> > > > So, what did they end up being? Our best guess is muskrat lodges.
                          > >> > Muskrats are
                          > >> > > >kin to beavers and are very industrious in terraforming things to
                          > >> > suit
                          > >> > > >themselves. They make lodges in marshy areas(but not dams), and
                          > >> have
                          > >> > the
                          > >> > > >entrances under water as often as not. If they need to, they dig
                          > >> > their own
                          > >> > > >ditches around their lodges. They also dig ditches so that they can
                          > >> > swim as much
                          > >> > > >as possible. All in all, it is a pretty certain thing that the
                          > >> > muskrats did
                          > >> > > >them.
                          > >> > > >
                          > >> > > > Google Earth and Bing both flatten out features, so the lodges
                          > >> > appear as flat
                          > >> > > >islands.
                          > >> > > >
                          > >> > > > We need to take this all as an object lesson: We cannot trust that
                          > >> > what we see
                          > >> > > >on GE is a true representation.
                          > >> > > >
                          > >> > > > As to the big canals in the Gulf, we are now aware of how much
                          > >> > damage has been
                          > >> > > >done to the bayou areas, how much land has been lost due to human
                          > >> > activity. That
                          > >> > > >is one reason Katrina did so much damage - there just wasn't enough
                          > >> > barrier land
                          > >> > > >anymore. So the submerged ones seem to have an explanation as to
                          > >> why
                          > >> > they are
                          > >> > > >submerged: The wave action obliterated the crests of the canal
                          > >> berms.
                          > >> > > >
                          > >> > > > But what ARE they?
                          > >> > > >
                          > >> > > > After finding mundane explanations for the other two, John and I
                          > >> are
                          > >> > beaten up
                          > >> > > >enough to admit there is probably a mundane explanation for them,
                          > >> > too. So, John
                          > >> > > >is closing down his site shortly, and I will be closing down the
                          > >> > blog, too. I
                          > >> > > >posted there about the "mosquito ditches," and expect that traffic
                          > >> > will cease
                          > >> > > >even if we kept the sites open.
                          > >> > > >
                          > >> > > > So, this is a mea culpa. We were wrong.
                          > >> > > >
                          > >> > > > Sorry to get everyone's hopes up.
                          > >> > > >
                          > >> > > > Take care. I will still be around...
                          > >> > > >
                          > >> > > > Steve
                          > >> > > >
                          > >> > >
                          > >> >
                          > >>
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
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