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Re: Beothuks in Iceland?

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  • David S Brody
    Regarding Vinland being located at L Anse aux Meadows, there are a couple of passages/references in the Sagas which make us question whether northern
    Message 1 of 21 , Dec 3, 2010
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      Regarding Vinland being located at L’Anse aux Meadows, there are a couple of passages/references in the Sagas which make us question whether northern Newfoundland is a viable location:

       

      1.      A reference to a snowless winter, during which cattle grazed freely.  Average annual snowfall in northern Newfoundland is 150 inches.

      2.      A passage describing how one of the party wanders off, discovers grape vines and gets drunk.  (Hence, the name “ Vinland .”)  Grapes do not grow as far north as L’Anse aux Meadows.

       

      The historian, Presidential Medal of Freedom recipient, and Pulitzer Prize winner Samuel Eliot Morison explains away this second point as follows (paraphrasing):  “Well, we know Leif Ericson’s father named Greenland Greenland when it wasn’t really green, so it must be that the son Leif followed his father’s lead and named Vinland Vinland even though there were no grapes.”  And with that, the mystery is solved.  Perhaps no better example exists of historians twisting facts to fit existing theory.  It would be comical if it weren’t so sad.

       

      It is likely that the L’Anse aux Meadows site was only a stopping-over spot on the way to Vinland , further south.

       

      Dave Brody

       

    • metismartin@yahoo.ca
      As far as I understand the Vinland locations included marker and settlement locations at Canso and further inland. The current administrations still hesitate
      Message 2 of 21 , Dec 3, 2010
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        As far as I understand the Vinland locations included marker and settlement locations at Canso and further inland. The current administrations still hesitate from further exploration of these because they expose too much of th lie.

        All our love
        Martin

        Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device


        From: "David S Brody" <DavidSBrody@...>
        Sender: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Fri, 3 Dec 2010 10:00:44 -0500
        To: <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
        ReplyTo: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Beothuks in Iceland?

         

        Regarding Vinland being located at L’Anse aux Meadows, there are a couple of passages/references in the Sagas which make us question whether northern Newfoundland is a viable location:

         

        1.      A reference to a snowless winter, during which cattle grazed freely.  Average annual snowfall in northern Newfoundland is 150 inches.

        2.      A passage describing how one of the party wanders off, discovers grape vines and gets drunk.  (Hence, the name “ Vinland .”)  Grapes do not grow as far north as L’Anse aux Meadows.

         

        The historian, Presidential Medal of Freedom recipient, and Pulitzer Prize winner Samuel Eliot Morison explains away this second point as follows (paraphrasing):  “Well, we know Leif Ericson’s father named Greenland Greenland when it wasn’t really green, so it must be that the son Leif followed his father’s lead and named Vinland Vinland even though there were no grapes.”  And with that, the mystery is solved.  Perhaps no better example exists of historians twisting facts to fit existing theory.  It would be comical if it weren’t so sad.

         

        It is likely that the L’Anse aux Meadows site was only a stopping-over spot on the way to Vinland , further south.

         

        Dave Brody

         

      • bigalemc2
        Thanks, David. I did not THINK that grapes grew that far north. Glad to have you confirm that. The blow off by Morison is 100% typical of scientists. They
        Message 3 of 21 , Dec 4, 2010
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          Thanks, David.

          I did not THINK that grapes grew that far north.  Glad to have you confirm that.

          The blow off by Morison is 100% typical of scientists.  They pull some speculation out of their arses, then with an air of superiority, turn on their heel and leave the room.  Everyone is supposed to be impressed by this bomfoggery and pomposity.  Mostly we just shake our heads and light a candle for their immortal souls.

          ALL science is about this:  "Though shalt accept as limits only what we have found so far - plus 2%."

          In other words, they are allowed to extrapolate, but only a TINY bit outside of what is now known.  And even when something like a comet smacks Jupiter - right before their very eyes - many of them 16 years later deny that such could happen on Earth.

          Until another site is found further south - by THEIR people - and studied for 20 years - by THEIR people, L'Anse will remain the limits of what is acceptable.  Thus doth science progress, not by leaps and bounds, but by clerical monkish types, each poring over manuscripts and stretching his career out until he becomes emeritus.  Inchworms all...

          As someone just emailed me today:

          "
          I can envision a time in the future when this generation of orthodox researchers will be lampooned like Mystery Science Theater 3K."


          Steve


          --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "David S Brody" <DavidSBrody@...> wrote:
          >
          > Regarding Vinland being located at L'Anse aux Meadows, there are a couple of
          > passages/references in the Sagas which make us question whether northern
          > Newfoundland is a viable location:
          >
          >
          >
          > 1. A reference to a snowless winter, during which cattle grazed freely.
          > Average annual snowfall in northern Newfoundland is 150 inches.
          >
          > 2. A passage describing how one of the party wanders off, discovers
          > grape vines and gets drunk. (Hence, the name "Vinland.") Grapes do not
          > grow as far north as L'Anse aux Meadows.
          >
          >
          >
          > The historian, Presidential Medal of Freedom recipient, and Pulitzer Prize
          > winner Samuel Eliot Morison explains away this second point as follows
          > (paraphrasing): "Well, we know Leif Ericson's father named Greenland
          > Greenland when it wasn't really green, so it must be that the son Leif
          > followed his father's lead and named Vinland Vinland even though there were
          > no grapes." And with that, the mystery is solved. Perhaps no better
          > example exists of historians twisting facts to fit existing theory. It
          > would be comical if it weren't so sad.
          >
          >
          >
          > It is likely that the L'Anse aux Meadows site was only a stopping-over spot
          > on the way to Vinland, further south.
          >
          >
          >
          > Dave Brody
          >
        • Steven Steigerwald
          With the weather being milder then, how far north did some things grow?? Anybody know?Steve To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com From: puppet@mc.net
          Message 4 of 21 , Dec 4, 2010
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            With the weather being milder then, how far north did some things grow?? 
            Anybody know?
            Steve


            To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
            From: puppet@...
            Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 22:41:53 +0000
            Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Beothuks in Iceland?

             
            Thanks, David.

            I did not THINK that grapes grew that far north.  Glad to have you confirm that.

            The blow off by Morison is 100% typical of scientists.  They pull some speculation out of their arses, then with an air of superiority, turn on their heel and leave the room.  Everyone is supposed to be impressed by this bomfoggery and pomposity.  Mostly we just shake our heads and light a candle for their immortal souls.

            ALL science is about this:  "Though shalt accept as limits only what we have found so far - plus 2%."

            In other words, they are allowed to extrapolate, but only a TINY bit outside of what is now known.  And even when something like a comet smacks Jupiter - right before their very eyes - many of them 16 years later deny that such could happen on Earth.

            Until another site is found further south - by THEIR people - and studied for 20 years - by THEIR people, L'Anse will remain the limits of what is acceptable.  Thus doth science progress, not by leaps and bounds, but by clerical monkish types, each poring over manuscripts and stretching his career out until he becomes emeritus.  Inchworms all...

            As someone just emailed me today:

            "
            I can envision a time in the future when this generation of orthodox researchers will be lampooned like Mystery Science Theater 3K."


            Steve


            --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "David S Brody" <DavidSBrody@...> wrote:
            >
            > Regarding Vinland being located at L'Anse aux Meadows, there are a couple of
            > passages/references in the Sagas which make us question whether northern
            > Newfoundland is a viable location:
            >
            >
            >
            > 1. A reference to a snowless winter, during which cattle grazed freely.
            > Average annual snowfall in northern Newfoundland is 150 inches.
            >
            > 2. A passage describing how one of the party wanders off, discovers
            > grape vines and gets drunk. (Hence, the name "Vinland.") Grapes do not
            > grow as far north as L'Anse aux Meadows.
            >
            >
            >
            > The historian, Presidential Medal of Freedom recipient, and Pulitzer Prize
            > winner Samuel Eliot Morison explains away this second point as follows
            > (paraphrasing): "Well, we know Leif Ericson's father named Greenland
            > Greenland when it wasn't really green, so it must be that the son Leif
            > followed his father's lead and named Vinland Vinland even though there were
            > no grapes." And with that, the mystery is solved. Perhaps no better
            > example exists of historians twisting facts to fit existing theory. It
            > would be comical if it weren't so sad.
            >
            >
            >
            > It is likely that the L'Anse aux Meadows site was only a stopping-over spot
            > on the way to Vinland, further south.
            >
            >
            >
            > Dave Brody
            >

          • james m clark jr
            Howdy Y all, What about wild grapes? According to the book ANIMALS THAT SERVE MANKIND A comment I m not sure is factual seems suggestive and that was that
            Message 5 of 21 , Dec 4, 2010
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              Howdy Y'all,

              What about wild grapes? According to the book ANIMALS THAT SERVE MANKIND A comment I'm not sure is factual seems suggestive and that was that domesticated crops take longer to grow as well as cook. You wouldn't need yeast to brew a bone chilling concoction if the hills and valleys are as foggy as Scotland.

              Another fact that wasn't considered in the artical is that Native Americans were not the only culture through maternal inheritance was custom.

              be well,
              jamey



              --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "bigalemc2" <puppet@...> wrote:
              >
              > Thanks, David.
              >
              > I did not THINK that grapes grew that far north. Glad to have you
              > confirm that.
              >
              > The blow off by Morison is 100% typical of scientists. They pull some
              > speculation out of their arses, then with an air of superiority, turn on
              > their heel and leave the room. Everyone is supposed to be impressed by
              > this bomfoggery and pomposity. Mostly we just shake our heads and light
              > a candle for their immortal souls.
              >
              > ALL science is about this: "Though shalt accept as limits only what we
              > have found so far - plus 2%."
              >
              > In other words, they are allowed to extrapolate, but only a TINY bit
              > outside of what is now known. And even when something like a comet
              > smacks Jupiter - right before their very eyes - many of them 16 years
              > later deny that such could happen on Earth.
              >
              > Until another site is found further south - by THEIR people - and
              > studied for 20 years - by THEIR people, L'Anse will remain the limits of
              > what is acceptable. Thus doth science progress, not by leaps and
              > bounds, but by clerical monkish types, each poring over manuscripts and
              > stretching his career out until he becomes emeritus. Inchworms all...
              >
              > As someone just emailed me today:
              >
              > "I can envision a time in the future when this generation of orthodox
              > researchers will be lampooned like Mystery Science Theater 3K."
              >
              > Steve
              >
              >
              > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "David S Brody"
              > <DavidSBrody@> wrote:
              > >
              > > Regarding Vinland being located at L'Anse aux Meadows, there are a
              > couple of
              > > passages/references in the Sagas which make us question whether
              > northern
              > > Newfoundland is a viable location:
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > 1. A reference to a snowless winter, during which cattle grazed
              > freely.
              > > Average annual snowfall in northern Newfoundland is 150 inches.
              > >
              > > 2. A passage describing how one of the party wanders off,
              > discovers
              > > grape vines and gets drunk. (Hence, the name "Vinland.") Grapes do
              > not
              > > grow as far north as L'Anse aux Meadows.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > The historian, Presidential Medal of Freedom recipient, and Pulitzer
              > Prize
              > > winner Samuel Eliot Morison explains away this second point as follows
              > > (paraphrasing): "Well, we know Leif Ericson's father named Greenland
              > > Greenland when it wasn't really green, so it must be that the son Leif
              > > followed his father's lead and named Vinland Vinland even though there
              > were
              > > no grapes." And with that, the mystery is solved. Perhaps no better
              > > example exists of historians twisting facts to fit existing theory.
              > It
              > > would be comical if it weren't so sad.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > It is likely that the L'Anse aux Meadows site was only a stopping-over
              > spot
              > > on the way to Vinland, further south.
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Dave Brody
              > >
              >
            • William Conner
              Okay,  I m jumping in on the discussion of grapes in the Vinland of pre-Columbian America.  In Chapter 6 of my book Iron Age America I discuss Arlington
              Message 6 of 21 , Dec 5, 2010
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                Okay,  I'm jumping in on the discussion of grapes in the "Vinland" of pre-Columbian America.  In Chapter 6 of my book "Iron Age America" I discuss Arlington Mallery's evidence of Norse type iron furnaces found in Virginia.  There wild grapes would grow.  Europeans reached North America long before 1492 and the native Americans themselves had a war with the white man in prehistoric Kentucky "the Azgens," also discussed in my book.
                 
                William Conner

                --- On Sat, 12/4/10, Steven Steigerwald <aztalan2008@...> wrote:

                From: Steven Steigerwald <aztalan2008@...>
                Subject: RE: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Beothuks in Iceland?
                To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Saturday, December 4, 2010, 10:22 PM

                 
                With the weather being milder then, how far north did some things grow?? 
                Anybody know?
                Steve


                To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                From: puppet@...
                Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 22:41:53 +0000
                Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Beothuks in Iceland?

                 
                Thanks, David.

                I did not THINK that grapes grew that far north.  Glad to have you confirm that.

                The blow off by Morison is 100% typical of scientists.  They pull some speculation out of their arses, then with an air of superiority, turn on their heel and leave the room.  Everyone is supposed to be impressed by this bomfoggery and pomposity.  Mostly we just shake our heads and light a candle for their immortal souls.

                ALL science is about this:  "Though shalt accept as limits only what we have found so far - plus 2%."

                In other words, they are allowed to extrapolate, but only a TINY bit outside of what is now known.  And even when something like a comet smacks Jupiter - right before their very eyes - many of them 16 years later deny that such could happen on Earth.

                Until another site is found further south - by THEIR people - and studied for 20 years - by THEIR people, L'Anse will remain the limits of what is acceptable.  Thus doth science progress, not by leaps and bounds, but by clerical monkish types, each poring over manuscripts and stretching his career out until he becomes emeritus.  Inchworms all...

                As someone just emailed me today:

                "
                I can envision a time in the future when this generation of orthodox researchers will be lampooned like Mystery Science Theater 3K."


                Steve


                --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "David S Brody" <DavidSBrody@...> wrote:
                >
                > Regarding Vinland being located at L'Anse aux Meadows, there are a couple of
                > passages/references in the Sagas which make us question whether northern
                > Newfoundland is a viable location:
                >
                >
                >
                > 1. A reference to a snowless winter, during which cattle grazed freely.
                > Average annual snowfall in northern Newfoundland is 150 inches.
                >
                > 2. A passage describing how one of the party wanders off, discovers
                > grape vines and gets drunk. (Hence, the name "Vinland.") Grapes do not
                > grow as far north as L'Anse aux Meadows.
                >
                >
                >
                > The historian, Presidential Medal of Freedom recipient, and Pulitzer Prize
                > winner Samuel Eliot Morison explains away this second point as follows
                > (paraphrasing): "Well, we know Leif Ericson's father named Greenland
                > Greenland when it wasn't really green, so it must be that the son Leif
                > followed his father's lead and named Vinland Vinland even though there were
                > no grapes." And with that, the mystery is solved. Perhaps no better
                > example exists of historians twisting facts to fit existing theory. It
                > would be comical if it weren't so sad.
                >
                >
                >
                > It is likely that the L'Anse aux Meadows site was only a stopping-over spot
                > on the way to Vinland, further south.
                >
                >
                >
                > Dave Brody
                >

              • Martin Carriere
                It is truly right that your own bloodline is interwoven and guides you in these understandings. Our additional understanding is that the Irish landed in
                Message 7 of 21 , Dec 5, 2010
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                  It is truly right that your own bloodline is interwoven and guides you in these understandings. Our additional understanding is that the Irish landed in Greenland and possibly Vinland before the Norse. Specifically the families the Conner family is descended from. Just thought you might like to know this.While the researchers steer clear of the Norse they also miss the earlier clues and evidence.

                  All our love,

                  Martin Carriere

                  --- On Sun, 12/5/10, William Conner <conner6343@...> wrote:

                  From: William Conner <conner6343@...>
                  Subject: RE: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Beothuks in Iceland?
                  To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                  Received: Sunday, December 5, 2010, 9:29 AM

                   

                  Okay,  I'm jumping in on the discussion of grapes in the "Vinland" of pre-Columbian America.  In Chapter 6 of my book "Iron Age America" I discuss Arlington Mallery's evidence of Norse type iron furnaces found in Virginia.  There wild grapes would grow.  Europeans reached North America long before 1492 and the native Americans themselves had a war with the white man in prehistoric Kentucky "the Azgens," also discussed in my book.
                   
                  William Conner

                  --- On Sat, 12/4/10, Steven Steigerwald <aztalan2008@...> wrote:

                  From: Steven Steigerwald <aztalan2008@...>
                  Subject: RE: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Beothuks in Iceland?
                  To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Saturday, December 4, 2010, 10:22 PM

                   
                  With the weather being milder then, how far north did some things grow?? 
                  Anybody know?
                  Steve


                  To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                  From: puppet@...
                  Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 22:41:53 +0000
                  Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Beothuks in Iceland?

                   
                  Thanks, David.

                  I did not THINK that grapes grew that far north.  Glad to have you confirm that.

                  The blow off by Morison is 100% typical of scientists.  They pull some speculation out of their arses, then with an air of superiority, turn on their heel and leave the room.  Everyone is supposed to be impressed by this bomfoggery and pomposity.  Mostly we just shake our heads and light a candle for their immortal souls.

                  ALL science is about this:  "Though shalt accept as limits only what we have found so far - plus 2%."

                  In other words, they are allowed to extrapolate, but only a TINY bit outside of what is now known.  And even when something like a comet smacks Jupiter - right before their very eyes - many of them 16 years later deny that such could happen on Earth.

                  Until another site is found further south - by THEIR people - and studied for 20 years - by THEIR people, L'Anse will remain the limits of what is acceptable.  Thus doth science progress, not by leaps and bounds, but by clerical monkish types, each poring over manuscripts and stretching his career out until he becomes emeritus.  Inchworms all...

                  As someone just emailed me today:

                  "
                  I can envision a time in the future when this generation of orthodox researchers will be lampooned like Mystery Science Theater 3K."


                  Steve


                  --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "David S Brody" <DavidSBrody@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Regarding Vinland being located at L'Anse aux Meadows, there are a couple of
                  > passages/references in the Sagas which make us question whether northern
                  > Newfoundland is a viable location:
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > 1. A reference to a snowless winter, during which cattle grazed freely.
                  > Average annual snowfall in northern Newfoundland is 150 inches.
                  >
                  > 2. A passage describing how one of the party wanders off, discovers
                  > grape vines and gets drunk. (Hence, the name "Vinland.") Grapes do not
                  > grow as far north as L'Anse aux Meadows.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > The historian, Presidential Medal of Freedom recipient, and Pulitzer Prize
                  > winner Samuel Eliot Morison explains away this second point as follows
                  > (paraphrasing): "Well, we know Leif Ericson's father named Greenland
                  > Greenland when it wasn't really green, so it must be that the son Leif
                  > followed his father's lead and named Vinland Vinland even though there were
                  > no grapes." And with that, the mystery is solved. Perhaps no better
                  > example exists of historians twisting facts to fit existing theory. It
                  > would be comical if it weren't so sad.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > It is likely that the L'Anse aux Meadows site was only a stopping-over spot
                  > on the way to Vinland, further south.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Dave Brody
                  >


                • Susan
                  I am enjoying the variety of comments and number of members posting on this subject and others the past several weeks....indicates to me the wide experience
                  Message 8 of 21 , Dec 5, 2010
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                    I am enjoying the variety of comments and number of members posting on this subject and others the past several weeks....indicates to me the wide experience and scope of so many within a group based upon ancient navigation, global waterways, changes over time, etc.
                     
                    There is no way of knowing the numbers of non-members that regularly read our group Posts unless such individuals send email commentaries, which happens occasionally to me.   The host & co-hosts which oversee this site also can never be sure how many of our current 77 membership continues to follow Posts.  But, after adding up the numbers posting since early October, I see that over thirty members, including a couple of the more recent newcomers, have Posted and/or added to one of the discussions.  Ancient Waterways Society has three over-see'ers, yet since MinnesotaStan set this forum up four or five years ago, we remain self-moderating.  I commend you all for this, and for maintaining cordiality when intercommunicating the integrity of your ideas and research.

                    A couple of days ago reading some of your posts, I thought I'd re-extend an invitation to a very longtime reseacher from Iceland who has been mentioned here before, Valdimar Samuelsson who has done considerable research with Minnesotan member of our group, Judi Rudebusch.  Some of what I do here as a co-host/PR person is invite people I think would find our group interesting.  And that they, as members,  might find their work, ideas, information adds to the synergy--the cooperative evolution of our increasingly globally-oriented association. Some of you joined our group via email invitations from me or other members here. When the discussion ensued about the Beothuks in Iceland, I relayed an invitation and our current thread to Valdimar, who presently is immersed in other work.  A Google of his name brings up a number of articles, references to his work, and that he is a member of other Yahoo Groups specializing more in area of research than our group would.  One sentence Mr. Samuelsson might not mind my emailing back: "I am glad you mention that Iceland is on the NA continent plate especially now when EU is trying to gobble us up; that really makes me uneasy".

                    Seaching also led me to an interesting article (Paper No. 2) which informed me about further research by a Minnesota member, Judi Rudebusch, which we have not heard much about recently.  She too belongs to a number of web sites.  The paper includes a Samuellsson photo of rugged Icelandic terraine and green pasture via the following link from The Last Kings of Norse America-the Spirit Pond & Kensington Runestones: A Saga of Medieval Scandinavian History:  http://www.lastkings.com/index.html   
                    End of the same link lists numerous articles some here might find interesting and would relate well to early historic and possibly very ancient navigation and exploration.
                     
                    First part of an earlier article written by Valdimar Samuelsson and Judi Rudibusch: http://newporttower.org/html/stone_holes.html
                     

                    Product Details

                    These Stones With Holes Have More To Tell. by Judi Rudebusch and Valdimar Samuelsson (Kindle Edition - Apr. 22, 2010) - Kindle eBook
                    Buy$4.99  Auto-delivered wirelessly
                     
                    I try to plug members here when I run across items on a Search, better yet...if any of you see and let us know personally if  you are part of a conference, are speaking, or have a new book or article out.  This Judi's blog from a few years ago, the photos are still open to comments by any of you: http://mooring-stone-theory.blogspot.com/
                     
                    Over six weeks I've had two two cataract surgeries w/implants, plus an additional surgical implant, am finally seeing better. But am supposed to take it easy.  I also am borrowing access to others' computers as opportunities arise.   Otherwise, computer access will continjue to be an hour a day at the library; for months unable to get to all the links, posts or anything in depth. 
                     
                    My continuingg appreciation for all of your input and polite but honest discourse with each other.
                     
                    Susan

                    --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Steven Steigerwald <aztalan2008@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    > With the weather being milder then, how far north did some things grow?? Anybody know?Steve
                    >
                    > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                    > From: puppet@...
                    > Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 22:41:53 +0000
                    > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Beothuks in Iceland?
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Thanks, David.
                    >
                    > I did not THINK that grapes grew that far north. Glad to have you confirm that.
                    >
                    > The blow off by Morison is 100% typical of scientists. They pull some speculation out of their arses, then with an air of superiority, turn on their heel and leave the room. Everyone is supposed to be impressed by this bomfoggery and pomposity. Mostly we just shake our heads and light a candle for their immortal souls.
                    >
                    > ALL science is about this: "Though shalt accept as limits only what we have found so far - plus 2%."
                    >
                    > In other words, they are allowed to extrapolate, but only a TINY bit outside of what is now known. And even when something like a comet smacks Jupiter - right before their very eyes - many of them 16 years later deny that such could happen on Earth.
                    >
                    > Until another site is found further south - by THEIR people - and studied for 20 years - by THEIR people, L'Anse will remain the limits of what is acceptable. Thus doth science progress, not by leaps and bounds, but by clerical monkish types, each poring over manuscripts and stretching his career out until he becomes emeritus. Inchworms all...
                    >
                    > As someone just emailed me today:
                    >
                    > "I can envision a
                    > time in the future when this generation of orthodox researchers will be
                    > lampooned like Mystery Science Theater 3K."
                    >
                    > Steve
                    >
                    >
                    > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "David S Brody" DavidSBrody@ wrote:
                    > >
                    > > Regarding Vinland being located at L'Anse aux Meadows, there are a couple of
                    > > passages/references in the Sagas which make us question whether northern
                    > > Newfoundland is a viable location:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > 1. A reference to a snowless winter, during which cattle grazed freely.
                    > > Average annual snowfall in northern Newfoundland is 150 inches.
                    > >
                    > > 2. A passage describing how one of the party wanders off, discovers
                    > > grape vines and gets drunk. (Hence, the name "Vinland.") Grapes do not
                    > > grow as far north as L'Anse aux Meadows.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > The historian, Presidential Medal of Freedom recipient, and Pulitzer Prize
                    > > winner Samuel Eliot Morison explains away this second point as follows
                    > > (paraphrasing): "Well, we know Leif Ericson's father named Greenland
                    > > Greenland when it wasn't really green, so it must be that the son Leif
                    > > followed his father's lead and named Vinland Vinland even though there were
                    > > no grapes." And with that, the mystery is solved. Perhaps no better
                    > > example exists of historians twisting facts to fit existing theory. It
                    > > would be comical if it weren't so sad.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > It is likely that the L'Anse aux Meadows site was only a stopping-over spot
                    > > on the way to Vinland, further south.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Dave Brody
                    > >
                    >
                  • james m clark jr
                    The Vikings called the North American area they explored Vinland (pronounced Winland ), because they found grapes growing there—at least in places. Without
                    Message 9 of 21 , Dec 6, 2010
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                      The Vikings called the North American area they explored Vinland (pronounced "Winland"), because they found grapes growing there—at least in places. Without question, there was a Viking settlement at L'Anse-aux-Meadows in Newfoundland. There is also geological evidence that the Vikings got at least as far south as Narragansett Bay in Rhode Island.

                      source:

                      http://www.stereophile.com/content/fifth-element-28


                      As far as regions and the soverignty of nations how was it possible that Labador and Nova Scotia are a part of New England but Newfoundland isn't I assume? If profane Christianity is correct in asserting that Leif Ericson was a bishop then the Icelandic sagas I assume more or less was the penical trasformation of gotterdammerung due to the Irish Maidens taken to these aclaimed new lands.

                      be well,
                      jamey

                      --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Steven Steigerwald <aztalan2008@...> wrote:
                      >
                      >
                      > With the weather being milder then, how far north did some things grow?? Anybody know?Steve
                      >
                      > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                      > From: puppet@...
                      > Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 22:41:53 +0000
                      > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Beothuks in Iceland?
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Thanks, David.
                      >
                      > I did not THINK that grapes grew that far north. Glad to have you confirm that.
                      >
                      > The blow off by Morison is 100% typical of scientists. They pull some speculation out of their arses, then with an air of superiority, turn on their heel and leave the room. Everyone is supposed to be impressed by this bomfoggery and pomposity. Mostly we just shake our heads and light a candle for their immortal souls.
                      >
                      > ALL science is about this: "Though shalt accept as limits only what we have found so far - plus 2%."
                      >
                      > In other words, they are allowed to extrapolate, but only a TINY bit outside of what is now known. And even when something like a comet smacks Jupiter - right before their very eyes - many of them 16 years later deny that such could happen on Earth.
                      >
                      > Until another site is found further south - by THEIR people - and studied for 20 years - by THEIR people, L'Anse will remain the limits of what is acceptable. Thus doth science progress, not by leaps and bounds, but by clerical monkish types, each poring over manuscripts and stretching his career out until he becomes emeritus. Inchworms all...
                      >
                      > As someone just emailed me today:
                      >
                      > "I can envision a
                      > time in the future when this generation of orthodox researchers will be
                      > lampooned like Mystery Science Theater 3K."
                      >
                      > Steve
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "David S Brody" <DavidSBrody@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > Regarding Vinland being located at L'Anse aux Meadows, there are a couple of
                      > > passages/references in the Sagas which make us question whether northern
                      > > Newfoundland is a viable location:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > 1. A reference to a snowless winter, during which cattle grazed freely.
                      > > Average annual snowfall in northern Newfoundland is 150 inches.
                      > >
                      > > 2. A passage describing how one of the party wanders off, discovers
                      > > grape vines and gets drunk. (Hence, the name "Vinland.") Grapes do not
                      > > grow as far north as L'Anse aux Meadows.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > The historian, Presidential Medal of Freedom recipient, and Pulitzer Prize
                      > > winner Samuel Eliot Morison explains away this second point as follows
                      > > (paraphrasing): "Well, we know Leif Ericson's father named Greenland
                      > > Greenland when it wasn't really green, so it must be that the son Leif
                      > > followed his father's lead and named Vinland Vinland even though there were
                      > > no grapes." And with that, the mystery is solved. Perhaps no better
                      > > example exists of historians twisting facts to fit existing theory. It
                      > > would be comical if it weren't so sad.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > It is likely that the L'Anse aux Meadows site was only a stopping-over spot
                      > > on the way to Vinland, further south.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Dave Brody
                      > >
                      >
                    • metismartin@yahoo.ca
                      Even before the Vikings the Irish had explored and settled Greenland and possibly Migmaggia too. Until full investigations of the sites are done by unbiased
                      Message 10 of 21 , Dec 6, 2010
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                        Even before the Vikings the Irish had explored and settled Greenland and possibly Migmaggia too. Until full investigations of the sites are done by unbiased and non government influenced archeologists the prehistory of this land will remain silent. Stepping back to the time of pharaoh and before is more than a 2 percent deviation and inconceivable by most researchers.

                        All our best
                        Martin

                        Sent from my BlackBerry® wireless device


                        From: "james m clark jr" <jameyboy@...>
                        Sender: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Mon, 06 Dec 2010 16:28:47 -0000
                        To: <ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com>
                        ReplyTo: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Beothuks in Iceland?

                         

                        The Vikings called the North American area they explored Vinland (pronounced "Winland"), because they found grapes growing there—at least in places. Without question, there was a Viking settlement at L'Anse-aux-Meadows in Newfoundland. There is also geological evidence that the Vikings got at least as far south as Narragansett Bay in Rhode Island.

                        source:

                        http://www.stereophile.com/content/fifth-element-28

                        As far as regions and the soverignty of nations how was it possible that Labador and Nova Scotia are a part of New England but Newfoundland isn't I assume? If profane Christianity is correct in asserting that Leif Ericson was a bishop then the Icelandic sagas I assume more or less was the penical trasformation of gotterdammerung due to the Irish Maidens taken to these aclaimed new lands.

                        be well,
                        jamey

                        --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Steven Steigerwald <aztalan2008@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > With the weather being milder then, how far north did some things grow?? Anybody know?Steve
                        >
                        > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                        > From: puppet@...
                        > Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 22:41:53 +0000
                        > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Beothuks in Iceland?
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > Thanks, David.
                        >
                        > I did not THINK that grapes grew that far north. Glad to have you confirm that.
                        >
                        > The blow off by Morison is 100% typical of scientists. They pull some speculation out of their arses, then with an air of superiority, turn on their heel and leave the room. Everyone is supposed to be impressed by this bomfoggery and pomposity. Mostly we just shake our heads and light a candle for their immortal souls.
                        >
                        > ALL science is about this: "Though shalt accept as limits only what we have found so far - plus 2%."
                        >
                        > In other words, they are allowed to extrapolate, but only a TINY bit outside of what is now known. And even when something like a comet smacks Jupiter - right before their very eyes - many of them 16 years later deny that such could happen on Earth.
                        >
                        > Until another site is found further south - by THEIR people - and studied for 20 years - by THEIR people, L'Anse will remain the limits of what is acceptable. Thus doth science progress, not by leaps and bounds, but by clerical monkish types, each poring over manuscripts and stretching his career out until he becomes emeritus. Inchworms all...
                        >
                        > As someone just emailed me today:
                        >
                        > "I can envision a
                        > time in the future when this generation of orthodox researchers will be
                        > lampooned like Mystery Science Theater 3K."
                        >
                        > Steve
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "David S Brody" <DavidSBrody@> wrote:
                        > >
                        > > Regarding Vinland being located at L'Anse aux Meadows, there are a couple of
                        > > passages/references in the Sagas which make us question whether northern
                        > > Newfoundland is a viable location:
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > 1. A reference to a snowless winter, during which cattle grazed freely.
                        > > Average annual snowfall in northern Newfoundland is 150 inches.
                        > >
                        > > 2. A passage describing how one of the party wanders off, discovers
                        > > grape vines and gets drunk. (Hence, the name "Vinland.") Grapes do not
                        > > grow as far north as L'Anse aux Meadows.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > The historian, Presidential Medal of Freedom recipient, and Pulitzer Prize
                        > > winner Samuel Eliot Morison explains away this second point as follows
                        > > (paraphrasing): "Well, we know Leif Ericson's father named Greenland
                        > > Greenland when it wasn't really green, so it must be that the son Leif
                        > > followed his father's lead and named Vinland Vinland even though there were
                        > > no grapes." And with that, the mystery is solved. Perhaps no better
                        > > example exists of historians twisting facts to fit existing theory. It
                        > > would be comical if it weren't so sad.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > It is likely that the L'Anse aux Meadows site was only a stopping-over spot
                        > > on the way to Vinland, further south.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > Dave Brody
                        > >
                        >

                      • Susan
                        All, Welcome to new members since yesterday, Lonniclarke and kcdirtnorth from The Northern Shore of the Greatest Lake ; please introduce yourselves when
                        Message 11 of 21 , Dec 6, 2010
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                          All,

                          Welcome to new members since yesterday,  Lonniclarke and kcdirtnorth from "The Northern Shore of the Greatest Lake";  please introduce yourselves when comfortable and perhaps let us know how you heard about our group. 

                          I rec'd a reply from Valdimar Samuelsson this AM that he was having difficulty signing on...most don't have any trouble signing on with non-Yahoo.com email addresses but I have been emailed before by two or three people, (Giza researcher Bernard Pietsch, for one) that they could not get on.  I occasionally send Invite messages (at left)  to prospective members,  which any member here can do.  And it has been a decade since I first joined YahooGroups, so I don't remember the process.  Members do not need to be approved by the host/co-hosts here to sign on.  To sign on, I am assuming non-members can click the subscribe link at the bottom of the Home Page to sign on (on my home page mine is not highlighted):  

                          Subscribe:             ancient_waterways_society-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

                           I am just mentioning the above in case others have problems signing on...we will find a way to get  you on if I cannot. Despite being a co-host and having recently taken basic computer classes at the library, I remain rather slow at these technical things.

                          A few other comments from a 'climate change skeptic's blog to consider re: grapes, "Vinland" on the Beothuk in Iceland ...maybe way off track, but interesting, nevertheless... 

                          -that if "Vinland" referred to Newfoundland and Labrador (formerly Newfoundland) where there is an absence of wild grapes, the term could have been more a marketing ploy to give the land a good name 'so men would want to go there'...
                          -Another comment, and Mr. Samuelsson and our member Frode from Norway might have better insight re: this, the old norse "Vin" can be interpreted in two ways:  modern use of the word means "wine", but as in old Norwegian place names it also can mean "plain" (e.g. Granvin, Bjørgvin). A likely explanation is that the vikings named the continent "Vinland" because the landscape at their landing site was open and flat.

                          -And, wine was made from ANYTHING that sprouted back around the 1000s, not necessarily grapes.

                          Jamey, that archaeological field tech job sounds really interesting...

                          I am sending the new members a greeting email.  Let me know if any of you older members want a copy, or wish to add  your own personal links to the present one that needs updating.

                          Thanks, Susan

                           

                           

                          --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "james m clark jr" <jameyboy@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > The Vikings called the North American area they explored Vinland (pronounced "Winland"), because they found grapes growing there—at least in places. Without question, there was a Viking settlement at L'Anse-aux-Meadows in Newfoundland. There is also geological evidence that the Vikings got at least as far south as Narragansett Bay in Rhode Island.
                          >
                          > source:
                          >
                          > http://www.stereophile.com/content/fifth-element-28
                          >
                          >
                          > As far as regions and the soverignty of nations how was it possible that Labador and Nova Scotia are a part of New England but Newfoundland isn't I assume? If profane Christianity is correct in asserting that Leif Ericson was a bishop then the Icelandic sagas I assume more or less was the penical trasformation of gotterdammerung due to the Irish Maidens taken to these aclaimed new lands.
                          >
                          > be well,
                          > jamey
                          >
                          > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Steven Steigerwald aztalan2008@ wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > With the weather being milder then, how far north did some things grow?? Anybody know?Steve
                          > >
                          > > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                          > > From: puppet@
                          > > Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 22:41:53 +0000
                          > > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Beothuks in Iceland?
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > Thanks, David.
                          > >
                          > > I did not THINK that grapes grew that far north. Glad to have you confirm that.
                          > >
                          > > The blow off by Morison is 100% typical of scientists. They pull some speculation out of their arses, then with an air of superiority, turn on their heel and leave the room. Everyone is supposed to be impressed by this bomfoggery and pomposity. Mostly we just shake our heads and light a candle for their immortal souls.
                          > >
                          > > ALL science is about this: "Though shalt accept as limits only what we have found so far - plus 2%."
                          > >
                          > > In other words, they are allowed to extrapolate, but only a TINY bit outside of what is now known. And even when something like a comet smacks Jupiter - right before their very eyes - many of them 16 years later deny that such could happen on Earth.
                          > >
                          > > Until another site is found further south - by THEIR people - and studied for 20 years - by THEIR people, L'Anse will remain the limits of what is acceptable. Thus doth science progress, not by leaps and bounds, but by clerical monkish types, each poring over manuscripts and stretching his career out until he becomes emeritus. Inchworms all...
                          > >
                          > > As someone just emailed me today:
                          > >
                          > > "I can envision a
                          > > time in the future when this generation of orthodox researchers will be
                          > > lampooned like Mystery Science Theater 3K."
                          > >
                          > > Steve
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "David S Brody" <DavidSBrody@> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > Regarding Vinland being located at L'Anse aux Meadows, there are a couple of
                          > > > passages/references in the Sagas which make us question whether northern
                          > > > Newfoundland is a viable location:
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > 1. A reference to a snowless winter, during which cattle grazed freely.
                          > > > Average annual snowfall in northern Newfoundland is 150 inches.
                          > > >
                          > > > 2. A passage describing how one of the party wanders off, discovers
                          > > > grape vines and gets drunk. (Hence, the name "Vinland.") Grapes do not
                          > > > grow as far north as L'Anse aux Meadows.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > The historian, Presidential Medal of Freedom recipient, and Pulitzer Prize
                          > > > winner Samuel Eliot Morison explains away this second point as follows
                          > > > (paraphrasing): "Well, we know Leif Ericson's father named Greenland
                          > > > Greenland when it wasn't really green, so it must be that the son Leif
                          > > > followed his father's lead and named Vinland Vinland even though there were
                          > > > no grapes." And with that, the mystery is solved. Perhaps no better
                          > > > example exists of historians twisting facts to fit existing theory. It
                          > > > would be comical if it weren't so sad.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > It is likely that the L'Anse aux Meadows site was only a stopping-over spot
                          > > > on the way to Vinland, further south.
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > >
                          > > > Dave Brody
                          > > >
                          > >
                          >

                        • Lonni Clarke
                          Ok, I ll quit lurking and say hello. I signed up yesterday after hearing about the group from Rick Ozman on his Oopa Loopa Cafe Show. I have a degree in
                          Message 12 of 21 , Dec 6, 2010
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                            Ok, I'll quit lurking and say hello.  I signed up yesterday after hearing about the group from Rick Ozman on his Oopa Loopa Cafe Show.  I have a degree in History, which I of course do not use to make a living, but the interest abides.  About six years ago I got Lyme disease and was misdiagnosed.  Consequently, the condition became chronic and although I have gained the upper hand with holistic treatments, I spent most of the past six years laying in bed reading, mostly alternative history.  I have reached the conclusion that most of what I was taught at UCLA was all a lie.  Today I am plunging into taboo historical narratives with great enthusiasm.  I paint portraits for a living, for which I have barely a shred of education.  It really would have been nice if I had majored in art. www.lonniclarke.com  I live in St. George, Utah.   I'm not too far from the location of the rumored Egyptian relics found by G.E.Kincaid  http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_orionzone_9.htm, so if any of my fellow list members want to drop by and go hiking in the Grand Canyon......and maybe some other list members be ready to post bail for us.....Lonni
                             
                             
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Susan
                            Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 11:20 AM
                            Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Beothuks in Iceland? Welcome new members

                             

                            All,

                            Welcome to new members since yesterday,  Lonniclarke and kcdirtnorth from "The Northern Shore of the Greatest Lake";  please introduce yourselves when comfortable and perhaps let us know how you heard about our group. 

                            I rec'd a reply from Valdimar Samuelsson this AM that he was having difficulty signing on...most don't have any trouble signing on with non-Yahoo.com email addresses but I have been emailed before by two or three people, (Giza researcher Bernard Pietsch, for one) that they could not get on.  I occasionally send Invite messages (at left)  to prospective members,  which any member here can do.  And it has been a decade since I first joined YahooGroups, so I don't remember the process.  Members do not need to be approved by the host/co-hosts here to sign on.  To sign on, I am assuming non-members can click the subscribe link at the bottom of the Home Page to sign on (on my home page mine is not highlighted):  

                            Subscribe:             ancient_waterways_society-subscribe@yahoogroups.com

                             I am just mentioning the above in case others have problems signing on...we will find a way to get  you on if I cannot. Despite being a co-host and having recently taken basic computer classes at the library, I remain rather slow at these technical things.

                            A few other comments from a 'climate change skeptic's blog to consider re: grapes, "Vinland" on the Beothuk in Iceland ...maybe way off track, but interesting, nevertheless... 

                            -that if "Vinland" referred to Newfoundland and Labrador (formerly Newfoundland) where there is an absence of wild grapes, the term could have been more a marketing ploy to give the land a good name 'so men would want to go there'...
                            -Another comment, and Mr. Samuelsson and our member Frode from Norway might have better insight re: this, the old norse "Vin" can be interpreted in two ways:  modern use of the word means "wine", but as in old Norwegian place names it also can mean "plain" (e.g. Granvin, Bjørgvin). A likely explanation is that the vikings named the continent "Vinland" because the landscape at their landing site was open and flat.

                            -And, wine was made from ANYTHING that sprouted back around the 1000s, not necessarily grapes.

                            Jamey, that archaeological field tech job sounds really interesting...

                            I am sending the new members a greeting email.  Let me know if any of you older members want a copy, or wish to add  your own personal links to the present one that needs updating.

                            Thanks, Susan

                             


                            --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "james m clark jr" <jameyboy@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > The Vikings called the North American area they explored Vinland (pronounced "Winland"), because they found grapes growing there—at least in places. Without question, there was a Viking settlement at L'Anse-aux-Meadows in Newfoundland. There is also geological evidence that the Vikings got at least as far south as Narragansett Bay in Rhode Island.
                            >
                            > source:
                            >
                            > http://www.stereophile.com/content/fifth-element-28
                            >
                            >
                            > As far as regions and the soverignty of nations how was it possible that Labador and Nova Scotia are a part of New England but Newfoundland isn't I assume? If profane Christianity is correct in asserting that Leif Ericson was a bishop then the Icelandic sagas I assume more or less was the penical trasformation of gotterdammerung due to the Irish Maidens taken to these aclaimed new lands.
                            >
                            > be well,
                            > jamey
                            >
                            > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Steven Steigerwald aztalan2008@ wrote:
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > With the weather being milder then, how far north did some things grow?? Anybody know?Steve
                            > >
                            > > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                            > > From: puppet@
                            > > Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 22:41:53 +0000
                            > > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Beothuks in Iceland?
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > Thanks, David.
                            > >
                            > > I did not THINK that grapes grew that far north. Glad to have you confirm that.
                            > >
                            > > The blow off by Morison is 100% typical of scientists. They pull some speculation out of their arses, then with an air of superiority, turn on their heel and leave the room. Everyone is supposed to be impressed by this bomfoggery and pomposity. Mostly we just shake our heads and light a candle for their immortal souls.
                            > >
                            > > ALL science is about this: "Though shalt accept as limits only what we have found so far - plus 2%."
                            > >
                            > > In other words, they are allowed to extrapolate, but only a TINY bit outside of what is now known. And even when something like a comet smacks Jupiter - right before their very eyes - many of them 16 years later deny that such could happen on Earth.
                            > >
                            > > Until another site is found further south - by THEIR people - and studied for 20 years - by THEIR people, L'Anse will remain the limits of what is acceptable. Thus doth science progress, not by leaps and bounds, but by clerical monkish types, each poring over manuscripts and stretching his career out until he becomes emeritus. Inchworms all...
                            > >
                            > > As someone just emailed me today:
                            > >
                            > > "I can envision a
                            > > time in the future when this generation of orthodox researchers will be
                            > > lampooned like Mystery Science Theater 3K."
                            > >
                            > > Steve
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "David S Brody" <DavidSBrody@> wrote:
                            > > >
                            > > > Regarding Vinland being located at L'Anse aux Meadows, there are a couple of
                            > > > passages/references in the Sagas which make us question whether northern
                            > > > Newfoundland is a viable location:
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > 1. A reference to a snowless winter, during which cattle grazed freely.
                            > > > Average annual snowfall in northern Newfoundland is 150 inches.
                            > > >
                            > > > 2. A passage describing how one of the party wanders off, discovers
                            > > > grape vines and gets drunk. (Hence, the name "Vinland.") Grapes do not
                            > > > grow as far north as L'Anse aux Meadows.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > The historian, Presidential Medal of Freedom recipient, and Pulitzer Prize
                            > > > winner Samuel Eliot Morison explains away this second point as follows
                            > > > (paraphrasing): "Well, we know Leif Ericson's father named Greenland
                            > > > Greenland when it wasn't really green, so it must be that the son Leif
                            > > > followed his father's lead and named Vinland Vinland even though there were
                            > > > no grapes." And with that, the mystery is solved. Perhaps no better
                            > > > example exists of historians twisting facts to fit existing theory. It
                            > > > would be comical if it weren't so sad.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > It is likely that the L'Anse aux Meadows site was only a stopping-over spot
                            > > > on the way to Vinland, further south.
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > >
                            > > > Dave Brody
                            > > >
                            > >
                            >



                            Teach InfoWest Spam Trap if this mail is spam:
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                          • james m clark jr
                            Hey Doc, A bad connection really sucks. I just learned myself. As far as an over the counter external modem this how they make there bucks or the contract of
                            Message 13 of 21 , Dec 6, 2010
                            View Source
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Hey Doc,

                              A bad connection really sucks. I just learned myself. As far as an over the counter external modem this how they make there bucks or the contract of the server may conflict so just recomened use of another server. As far as external modems the reciver on this side of the world may be owned and sent from the other side of the globe. According to what time of day or night you have to manually switch IP address... this is the only way to have 100% access. But if your in the middle of nowhere knowning this could mean you live to see another day. I don't own a cell phone but the same pricipal should apply. The modem I currently borrowed will have to soon be returned.

                              be well,
                              jamey

                              --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan" <beldingenglish@...> wrote:
                              >
                              >
                              > All,
                              >
                              > Welcome to new members since yesterday, Lonniclarke and kcdirtnorth
                              > from "The Northern Shore of the Greatest Lake"; please introduce
                              > yourselves when comfortable and perhaps let us know how you heard about
                              > our group.
                              >
                              > I rec'd a reply from Valdimar Samuelsson this AM that he was having
                              > difficulty signing on...most don't have any trouble signing on with
                              > non-Yahoo.com email addresses but I have been emailed before by two or
                              > three people, (Giza researcher Bernard Pietsch, for one) that they could
                              > not get on. I occasionally send Invite
                              > </group/ancient_waterways_society/subs_invite> messages (at left) to
                              > prospective members, which any member here can do. And it has been a
                              > decade since I first joined YahooGroups, so I don't remember the
                              > process. Members do not need to be approved by the host/co-hosts here
                              > to sign on. To sign on, I am assuming non-members can click the
                              > subscribe link at the bottom of the Home Page to sign on (on my home
                              > page mine is not highlighted):
                              >
                              > Subscribe:
                              > ancient_waterways_society-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              > <mailto:ancient_waterways_society-subscribe@yahoogroups.com>
                              >
                              > I am just mentioning the above in case others have problems signing
                              > on...we will find a way to get you on if I cannot. Despite being a
                              > co-host and having recently taken basic computer classes at the library,
                              > I remain rather slow at these technical things.
                              >
                              > A few other comments from a 'climate change skeptic's blog to consider
                              > re: grapes, "Vinland" on the Beothuk in Iceland ...maybe way off track,
                              > but interesting, nevertheless...
                              >
                              > -that if "Vinland" referred to Newfoundland and Labrador (formerly
                              > Newfoundland) where there is an absence of wild grapes, the term could
                              > have been more a marketing ploy to give the land a good name 'so men
                              > would want to go there'... -Another comment, and Mr. Samuelsson and our
                              > member Frode from Norway might have better insight re: this, the old
                              > norse "Vin" can be interpreted in two ways: modern use of the word
                              > means "wine", but as in old Norwegian place names it also can mean
                              > "plain" (e.g. Granvin, Bjørgvin). A likely explanation is that the
                              > vikings named the continent "Vinland" because the landscape at their
                              > landing site was open and flat.
                              > -And, wine was made from ANYTHING that sprouted back around the 1000s,
                              > not necessarily grapes.
                              >
                              > Jamey, that archaeological field tech job sounds really interesting...
                              >
                              > I am sending the new members a greeting email. Let me know if any of
                              > you older members want a copy, or wish to add your own personal links
                              > to the present one that needs updating.
                              >
                              > Thanks, Susan
                              >
                              >
                              > .
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "james m clark jr"
                              > <jameyboy@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > > The Vikings called the North American area they explored Vinland
                              > (pronounced "Winland"), because they found grapes growing there—at
                              > least in places. Without question, there was a Viking settlement at
                              > L'Anse-aux-Meadows in Newfoundland. There is also geological evidence
                              > that the Vikings got at least as far south as Narragansett Bay in Rhode
                              > Island.
                              > >
                              > > source:
                              > >
                              > > http://www.stereophile.com/content/fifth-element-28
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > As far as regions and the soverignty of nations how was it possible
                              > that Labador and Nova Scotia are a part of New England but Newfoundland
                              > isn't I assume? If profane Christianity is correct in asserting that
                              > Leif Ericson was a bishop then the Icelandic sagas I assume more or less
                              > was the penical trasformation of gotterdammerung due to the Irish
                              > Maidens taken to these aclaimed new lands.
                              > >
                              > > be well,
                              > > jamey
                              > >
                              > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Steven Steigerwald
                              > aztalan2008@ wrote:
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > With the weather being milder then, how far north did some things
                              > grow?? Anybody know?Steve
                              > > >
                              > > > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                              > > > From: puppet@
                              > > > Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 22:41:53 +0000
                              > > > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Beothuks in Iceland?
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Thanks, David.
                              > > >
                              > > > I did not THINK that grapes grew that far north. Glad to have you
                              > confirm that.
                              > > >
                              > > > The blow off by Morison is 100% typical of scientists. They pull
                              > some speculation out of their arses, then with an air of superiority,
                              > turn on their heel and leave the room. Everyone is supposed to be
                              > impressed by this bomfoggery and pomposity. Mostly we just shake our
                              > heads and light a candle for their immortal souls.
                              > > >
                              > > > ALL science is about this: "Though shalt accept as limits only what
                              > we have found so far - plus 2%."
                              > > >
                              > > > In other words, they are allowed to extrapolate, but only a TINY bit
                              > outside of what is now known. And even when something like a comet
                              > smacks Jupiter - right before their very eyes - many of them 16 years
                              > later deny that such could happen on Earth.
                              > > >
                              > > > Until another site is found further south - by THEIR people - and
                              > studied for 20 years - by THEIR people, L'Anse will remain the limits of
                              > what is acceptable. Thus doth science progress, not by leaps and bounds,
                              > but by clerical monkish types, each poring over manuscripts and
                              > stretching his career out until he becomes emeritus. Inchworms all...
                              > > >
                              > > > As someone just emailed me today:
                              > > >
                              > > > "I can envision a
                              > > > time in the future when this generation of orthodox researchers will
                              > be
                              > > > lampooned like Mystery Science Theater 3K."
                              > > >
                              > > > Steve
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "David S Brody"
                              > <DavidSBrody@> wrote:
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Regarding Vinland being located at L'Anse aux Meadows, there are a
                              > couple of
                              > > > > passages/references in the Sagas which make us question whether
                              > northern
                              > > > > Newfoundland is a viable location:
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > 1. A reference to a snowless winter, during which cattle grazed
                              > freely.
                              > > > > Average annual snowfall in northern Newfoundland is 150 inches.
                              > > > >
                              > > > > 2. A passage describing how one of the party wanders off,
                              > discovers
                              > > > > grape vines and gets drunk. (Hence, the name "Vinland.") Grapes do
                              > not
                              > > > > grow as far north as L'Anse aux Meadows.
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > The historian, Presidential Medal of Freedom recipient, and
                              > Pulitzer Prize
                              > > > > winner Samuel Eliot Morison explains away this second point as
                              > follows
                              > > > > (paraphrasing): "Well, we know Leif Ericson's father named
                              > Greenland
                              > > > > Greenland when it wasn't really green, so it must be that the son
                              > Leif
                              > > > > followed his father's lead and named Vinland Vinland even though
                              > there were
                              > > > > no grapes." And with that, the mystery is solved. Perhaps no
                              > better
                              > > > > example exists of historians twisting facts to fit existing
                              > theory. It
                              > > > > would be comical if it weren't so sad.
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > It is likely that the L'Anse aux Meadows site was only a
                              > stopping-over spot
                              > > > > on the way to Vinland, further south.
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > >
                              > > > > Dave Brody
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > >
                              >
                            • james m clark jr
                              ... one more note. This is why when you post to a newsgroup at say 2:15 am est the online time of post says 5:15 am the reason being the signal is self
                              Message 14 of 21 , Dec 6, 2010
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                                ... one more note.

                                This is why when you post to a newsgroup at say 2:15 am est the online time of post says 5:15 am the reason being the signal is self automated to supposedly keep up and make it easier to keep up with clients by cuting you off if you don't change the IP manually. You may lose your siginal or bandwith drastically decressed depending on what you pay for... is somewhat a myth. But in reality the technology in the receptive end is wonderful the jagged pattern is actually modeled after leaf patterns in particular climates...but they don't want you to know about that technology just like the regular xbox and simlar gaming systems with a hard drive for instance... I garentee you this thing downloads about as fast as the highest dollar pc on the market today so don't trash it add a practically free 200 gig or larger harddrive (old satalite recives with HD) who cares if the laser on the harddrive is burnt out... You dont need it now that there are boo koos of software mods... no real hassleing updates and instant reboot and reduced crash or blue screen hassles. But then again who needs it when just about everything you save is oneline in an acessable storge retreval system for now. But from what I gather that is about to change. When or how I don't know the answer too I hope it's only hype and I have not really looked into it myself.Will
                                .com be replaced by .gov seems to be in that direction it is facing.

                                be well,
                                jamey


                                --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "james m clark jr" <jameyboy@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Hey Doc,
                                >
                                > A bad connection really sucks. I just learned myself. As far as an over the counter external modem this how they make there bucks or the contract of the server may conflict so just recomened use of another server. As far as external modems the reciver on this side of the world may be owned and sent from the other side of the globe. According to what time of day or night you have to manually switch IP address... this is the only way to have 100% access. But if your in the middle of nowhere knowning this could mean you live to see another day. I don't own a cell phone but the same pricipal should apply. The modem I currently borrowed will have to soon be returned.
                                >
                                > be well,
                                > jamey
                                >
                                > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan" <beldingenglish@> wrote:
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > All,
                                > >
                                > > Welcome to new members since yesterday, Lonniclarke and kcdirtnorth
                                > > from "The Northern Shore of the Greatest Lake"; please introduce
                                > > yourselves when comfortable and perhaps let us know how you heard about
                                > > our group.
                                > >
                                > > I rec'd a reply from Valdimar Samuelsson this AM that he was having
                                > > difficulty signing on...most don't have any trouble signing on with
                                > > non-Yahoo.com email addresses but I have been emailed before by two or
                                > > three people, (Giza researcher Bernard Pietsch, for one) that they could
                                > > not get on. I occasionally send Invite
                                > > </group/ancient_waterways_society/subs_invite> messages (at left) to
                                > > prospective members, which any member here can do. And it has been a
                                > > decade since I first joined YahooGroups, so I don't remember the
                                > > process. Members do not need to be approved by the host/co-hosts here
                                > > to sign on. To sign on, I am assuming non-members can click the
                                > > subscribe link at the bottom of the Home Page to sign on (on my home
                                > > page mine is not highlighted):
                                > >
                                > > Subscribe:
                                > > ancient_waterways_society-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                > > <mailto:ancient_waterways_society-subscribe@yahoogroups.com>
                                > >
                                > > I am just mentioning the above in case others have problems signing
                                > > on...we will find a way to get you on if I cannot. Despite being a
                                > > co-host and having recently taken basic computer classes at the library,
                                > > I remain rather slow at these technical things.
                                > >
                                > > A few other comments from a 'climate change skeptic's blog to consider
                                > > re: grapes, "Vinland" on the Beothuk in Iceland ...maybe way off track,
                                > > but interesting, nevertheless...
                                > >
                                > > -that if "Vinland" referred to Newfoundland and Labrador (formerly
                                > > Newfoundland) where there is an absence of wild grapes, the term could
                                > > have been more a marketing ploy to give the land a good name 'so men
                                > > would want to go there'... -Another comment, and Mr. Samuelsson and our
                                > > member Frode from Norway might have better insight re: this, the old
                                > > norse "Vin" can be interpreted in two ways: modern use of the word
                                > > means "wine", but as in old Norwegian place names it also can mean
                                > > "plain" (e.g. Granvin, Bjørgvin). A likely explanation is that the
                                > > vikings named the continent "Vinland" because the landscape at their
                                > > landing site was open and flat.
                                > > -And, wine was made from ANYTHING that sprouted back around the 1000s,
                                > > not necessarily grapes.
                                > >
                                > > Jamey, that archaeological field tech job sounds really interesting...
                                > >
                                > > I am sending the new members a greeting email. Let me know if any of
                                > > you older members want a copy, or wish to add your own personal links
                                > > to the present one that needs updating.
                                > >
                                > > Thanks, Susan
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > .
                                > >
                                > >
                                > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "james m clark jr"
                                > > <jameyboy@> wrote:
                                > > >
                                > > > The Vikings called the North American area they explored Vinland
                                > > (pronounced "Winland"), because they found grapes growing there—at
                                > > least in places. Without question, there was a Viking settlement at
                                > > L'Anse-aux-Meadows in Newfoundland. There is also geological evidence
                                > > that the Vikings got at least as far south as Narragansett Bay in Rhode
                                > > Island.
                                > > >
                                > > > source:
                                > > >
                                > > > http://www.stereophile.com/content/fifth-element-28
                                > > >
                                > > >
                                > > > As far as regions and the soverignty of nations how was it possible
                                > > that Labador and Nova Scotia are a part of New England but Newfoundland
                                > > isn't I assume? If profane Christianity is correct in asserting that
                                > > Leif Ericson was a bishop then the Icelandic sagas I assume more or less
                                > > was the penical trasformation of gotterdammerung due to the Irish
                                > > Maidens taken to these aclaimed new lands.
                                > > >
                                > > > be well,
                                > > > jamey
                                > > >
                                > > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Steven Steigerwald
                                > > aztalan2008@ wrote:
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > With the weather being milder then, how far north did some things
                                > > grow?? Anybody know?Steve
                                > > > >
                                > > > > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                                > > > > From: puppet@
                                > > > > Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 22:41:53 +0000
                                > > > > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Beothuks in Iceland?
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Thanks, David.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > I did not THINK that grapes grew that far north. Glad to have you
                                > > confirm that.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > The blow off by Morison is 100% typical of scientists. They pull
                                > > some speculation out of their arses, then with an air of superiority,
                                > > turn on their heel and leave the room. Everyone is supposed to be
                                > > impressed by this bomfoggery and pomposity. Mostly we just shake our
                                > > heads and light a candle for their immortal souls.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > ALL science is about this: "Though shalt accept as limits only what
                                > > we have found so far - plus 2%."
                                > > > >
                                > > > > In other words, they are allowed to extrapolate, but only a TINY bit
                                > > outside of what is now known. And even when something like a comet
                                > > smacks Jupiter - right before their very eyes - many of them 16 years
                                > > later deny that such could happen on Earth.
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Until another site is found further south - by THEIR people - and
                                > > studied for 20 years - by THEIR people, L'Anse will remain the limits of
                                > > what is acceptable. Thus doth science progress, not by leaps and bounds,
                                > > but by clerical monkish types, each poring over manuscripts and
                                > > stretching his career out until he becomes emeritus. Inchworms all...
                                > > > >
                                > > > > As someone just emailed me today:
                                > > > >
                                > > > > "I can envision a
                                > > > > time in the future when this generation of orthodox researchers will
                                > > be
                                > > > > lampooned like Mystery Science Theater 3K."
                                > > > >
                                > > > > Steve
                                > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "David S Brody"
                                > > <DavidSBrody@> wrote:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Regarding Vinland being located at L'Anse aux Meadows, there are a
                                > > couple of
                                > > > > > passages/references in the Sagas which make us question whether
                                > > northern
                                > > > > > Newfoundland is a viable location:
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > 1. A reference to a snowless winter, during which cattle grazed
                                > > freely.
                                > > > > > Average annual snowfall in northern Newfoundland is 150 inches.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > 2. A passage describing how one of the party wanders off,
                                > > discovers
                                > > > > > grape vines and gets drunk. (Hence, the name "Vinland.") Grapes do
                                > > not
                                > > > > > grow as far north as L'Anse aux Meadows.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > The historian, Presidential Medal of Freedom recipient, and
                                > > Pulitzer Prize
                                > > > > > winner Samuel Eliot Morison explains away this second point as
                                > > follows
                                > > > > > (paraphrasing): "Well, we know Leif Ericson's father named
                                > > Greenland
                                > > > > > Greenland when it wasn't really green, so it must be that the son
                                > > Leif
                                > > > > > followed his father's lead and named Vinland Vinland even though
                                > > there were
                                > > > > > no grapes." And with that, the mystery is solved. Perhaps no
                                > > better
                                > > > > > example exists of historians twisting facts to fit existing
                                > > theory. It
                                > > > > > would be comical if it weren't so sad.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > It is likely that the L'Anse aux Meadows site was only a
                                > > stopping-over spot
                                > > > > > on the way to Vinland, further south.
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > >
                                > > > > > Dave Brody
                                > > > > >
                                > > > >
                                > > >
                                > >
                                >
                              • Steven Steigerwald
                                Thanks Much for this statement And, wine was made from ANYTHING that sprouted back around the 1000s, ... How are you Susan? Steve S. To:
                                Message 15 of 21 , Dec 6, 2010
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                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Thanks Much for this statement   "And, wine was made from ANYTHING that sprouted back around the 1000s,
                                  > not necessarily grapes."  Thats makes me think.
                                  How are you Susan?
                                  Steve S.


                                  To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                                  From: jameyboy@...
                                  Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 23:16:43 +0000
                                  Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Beothuks in Iceland? Welcome new members

                                   
                                  Hey Doc,

                                  A bad connection really sucks. I just learned myself. As far as an over the counter external modem this how they make there bucks or the contract of the server may conflict so just recomened use of another server. As far as external modems the reciver on this side of the world may be owned and sent from the other side of the globe. According to what time of day or night you have to manually switch IP address... this is the only way to have 100% access. But if your in the middle of nowhere knowning this could mean you live to see another day. I don't own a cell phone but the same pricipal should apply. The modem I currently borrowed will have to soon be returned.

                                  be well,
                                  jamey

                                  --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan" <beldingenglish@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > All,
                                  >
                                  > Welcome to new members since yesterday, Lonniclarke and kcdirtnorth
                                  > from "The Northern Shore of the Greatest Lake"; please introduce
                                  > yourselves when comfortable and perhaps let us know how you heard about
                                  > our group.
                                  >
                                  > I rec'd a reply from Valdimar Samuelsson this AM that he was having
                                  > difficulty signing on...most don't have any trouble signing on with
                                  > non-Yahoo.com email addresses but I have been emailed before by two or
                                  > three people, (Giza researcher Bernard Pietsch, for one) that they could
                                  > not get on. I occasionally send Invite
                                  > </group/ancient_waterways_society/subs_invite> messages (at left) to
                                  > prospective members, which any member here can do. And it has been a
                                  > decade since I first joined YahooGroups, so I don't remember the
                                  > process. Members do not need to be approved by the host/co-hosts here
                                  > to sign on. To sign on, I am assuming non-members can click the
                                  > subscribe link at the bottom of the Home Page to sign on (on my home
                                  > page mine is not highlighted):
                                  >
                                  > Subscribe:
                                  > ancient_waterways_society-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  > <mailto:ancient_waterways_society-subscribe@yahoogroups.com>
                                  >
                                  > I am just mentioning the above in case others have problems signing
                                  > on...we will find a way to get you on if I cannot. Despite being a
                                  > co-host and having recently taken basic computer classes at the library,
                                  > I remain rather slow at these technical things.
                                  >
                                  > A few other comments from a 'climate change skeptic's blog to consider
                                  > re: grapes, "Vinland" on the Beothuk in Iceland ...maybe way off track,
                                  > but interesting, nevertheless...
                                  >
                                  > -that if "Vinland" referred to Newfoundland and Labrador (formerly
                                  > Newfoundland) where there is an absence of wild grapes, the term could
                                  > have been more a marketing ploy to give the land a good name 'so men
                                  > would want to go there'... -Another comment, and Mr. Samuelsson and our
                                  > member Frode from Norway might have better insight re: this, the old
                                  > norse "Vin" can be interpreted in two ways: modern use of the word
                                  > means "wine", but as in old Norwegian place names it also can mean
                                  > "plain" (e.g. Granvin, Bjørgvin). A likely explanation is that the
                                  > vikings named the continent "Vinland" because the landscape at their
                                  > landing site was open and flat.
                                  > -And, wine was made from ANYTHING that sprouted back around the 1000s,
                                  > not necessarily grapes.
                                  >
                                  > Jamey, that archaeological field tech job sounds really interesting...
                                  >
                                  > I am sending the new members a greeting email. Let me know if any of
                                  > you older members want a copy, or wish to add your own personal links
                                  > to the present one that needs updating.
                                  >
                                  > Thanks, Susan
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > .
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "james m clark jr"
                                  > <jameyboy@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > The Vikings called the North American area they explored Vinland
                                  > (pronounced "Winland"), because they found grapes growing there—at
                                  > least in places. Without question, there was a Viking settlement at
                                  > L'Anse-aux-Meadows in Newfoundland. There is also geological evidence
                                  > that the Vikings got at least as far south as Narragansett Bay in Rhode
                                  > Island.
                                  > >
                                  > > source:
                                  > >
                                  > > http://www.stereophile.com/content/fifth-element-28
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > As far as regions and the soverignty of nations how was it possible
                                  > that Labador and Nova Scotia are a part of New England but Newfoundland
                                  > isn't I assume? If profane Christianity is correct in asserting that
                                  > Leif Ericson was a bishop then the Icelandic sagas I assume more or less
                                  > was the penical trasformation of gotterdammerung due to the Irish
                                  > Maidens taken to these aclaimed new lands.
                                  > >
                                  > > be well,
                                  > > jamey
                                  > >
                                  > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Steven Steigerwald
                                  > aztalan2008@ wrote:
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > With the weather being milder then, how far north did some things
                                  > grow?? Anybody know?Steve
                                  > > >
                                  > > > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > > From: puppet@
                                  > > > Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 22:41:53 +0000
                                  > > > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Beothuks in Iceland?
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Thanks, David.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > I did not THINK that grapes grew that far north. Glad to have you
                                  > confirm that.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > The blow off by Morison is 100% typical of scientists. They pull
                                  > some speculation out of their arses, then with an air of superiority,
                                  > turn on their heel and leave the room. Everyone is supposed to be
                                  > impressed by this bomfoggery and pomposity. Mostly we just shake our
                                  > heads and light a candle for their immortal souls.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > ALL science is about this: "Though shalt accept as limits only what
                                  > we have found so far - plus 2%."
                                  > > >
                                  > > > In other words, they are allowed to extrapolate, but only a TINY bit
                                  > outside of what is now known. And even when something like a comet
                                  > smacks Jupiter - right before their very eyes - many of them 16 years
                                  > later deny that such could happen on Earth.
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Until another site is found further south - by THEIR people - and
                                  > studied for 20 years - by THEIR people, L'Anse will remain the limits of
                                  > what is acceptable. Thus doth science progress, not by leaps and bounds,
                                  > but by clerical monkish types, each poring over manuscripts and
                                  > stretching his career out until he becomes emeritus. Inchworms all...
                                  > > >
                                  > > > As someone just emailed me today:
                                  > > >
                                  > > > "I can envision a
                                  > > > time in the future when this generation of orthodox researchers will
                                  > be
                                  > > > lampooned like Mystery Science Theater 3K."
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Steve
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "David S Brody"
                                  > <DavidSBrody@> wrote:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Regarding Vinland being located at L'Anse aux Meadows, there are a
                                  > couple of
                                  > > > > passages/references in the Sagas which make us question whether
                                  > northern
                                  > > > > Newfoundland is a viable location:
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > 1. A reference to a snowless winter, during which cattle grazed
                                  > freely.
                                  > > > > Average annual snowfall in northern Newfoundland is 150 inches.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > 2. A passage describing how one of the party wanders off,
                                  > discovers
                                  > > > > grape vines and gets drunk. (Hence, the name "Vinland.") Grapes do
                                  > not
                                  > > > > grow as far north as L'Anse aux Meadows.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > The historian, Presidential Medal of Freedom recipient, and
                                  > Pulitzer Prize
                                  > > > > winner Samuel Eliot Morison explains away this second point as
                                  > follows
                                  > > > > (paraphrasing): "Well, we know Leif Ericson's father named
                                  > Greenland
                                  > > > > Greenland when it wasn't really green, so it must be that the son
                                  > Leif
                                  > > > > followed his father's lead and named Vinland Vinland even though
                                  > there were
                                  > > > > no grapes." And with that, the mystery is solved. Perhaps no
                                  > better
                                  > > > > example exists of historians twisting facts to fit existing
                                  > theory. It
                                  > > > > would be comical if it weren't so sad.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > It is likely that the L'Anse aux Meadows site was only a
                                  > stopping-over spot
                                  > > > > on the way to Vinland, further south.
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > >
                                  > > > > Dave Brody
                                  > > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > >
                                  >


                                • james m clark jr
                                  Hey Vinny, Sue, all y all, Perhaps for mainland Europe but I really see no need to speculate on pre or post isolated epidemics.. not that you suggested it, it
                                  Message 16 of 21 , Dec 11, 2010
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                                    Hey Vinny, Sue, all y'all,

                                    Perhaps for mainland Europe but I really see no need to speculate on pre or post isolated epidemics.. not that you suggested it, it crossed my mind. Now it would be interesting if there was some documentation this far north. The frementation of blood sausage isn't that much differnt than bloody ground beef that will never sell in many countries besides Britain. Purification rituals and perhaps Icelandic remidies or Vinland remidies perhaps may attrubite to a Wineland discription but even that would be quite a feat... far from Indigenious America causing Scyphilus to Europeans as it once was assumed was true as well. Who knows, perhaps with so many ancient texts going public it will be a 5th grader that will shock us all in just the next few years.

                                    be well,
                                    jamey

                                    --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Steven Steigerwald <aztalan2008@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Thanks Much for this statement "And, wine was made from ANYTHING that sprouted back around the 1000s,
                                    >
                                    > > not necessarily grapes." Thats makes me think.
                                    > How are you Susan?
                                    > Steve S.
                                    >
                                    > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                                    > From: jameyboy@...
                                    > Date: Mon, 6 Dec 2010 23:16:43 +0000
                                    > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Beothuks in Iceland? Welcome new members
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Hey Doc,
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > A bad connection really sucks. I just learned myself. As far as an over the counter external modem this how they make there bucks or the contract of the server may conflict so just recomened use of another server. As far as external modems the reciver on this side of the world may be owned and sent from the other side of the globe. According to what time of day or night you have to manually switch IP address... this is the only way to have 100% access. But if your in the middle of nowhere knowning this could mean you live to see another day. I don't own a cell phone but the same pricipal should apply. The modem I currently borrowed will have to soon be returned.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > be well,
                                    >
                                    > jamey
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Susan" <beldingenglish@> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > All,
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > Welcome to new members since yesterday, Lonniclarke and kcdirtnorth
                                    >
                                    > > from "The Northern Shore of the Greatest Lake"; please introduce
                                    >
                                    > > yourselves when comfortable and perhaps let us know how you heard about
                                    >
                                    > > our group.
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > I rec'd a reply from Valdimar Samuelsson this AM that he was having
                                    >
                                    > > difficulty signing on...most don't have any trouble signing on with
                                    >
                                    > > non-Yahoo.com email addresses but I have been emailed before by two or
                                    >
                                    > > three people, (Giza researcher Bernard Pietsch, for one) that they could
                                    >
                                    > > not get on. I occasionally send Invite
                                    >
                                    > > </group/ancient_waterways_society/subs_invite> messages (at left) to
                                    >
                                    > > prospective members, which any member here can do. And it has been a
                                    >
                                    > > decade since I first joined YahooGroups, so I don't remember the
                                    >
                                    > > process. Members do not need to be approved by the host/co-hosts here
                                    >
                                    > > to sign on. To sign on, I am assuming non-members can click the
                                    >
                                    > > subscribe link at the bottom of the Home Page to sign on (on my home
                                    >
                                    > > page mine is not highlighted):
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > Subscribe:
                                    >
                                    > > ancient_waterways_society-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    >
                                    > > <mailto:ancient_waterways_society-subscribe@yahoogroups.com>
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > I am just mentioning the above in case others have problems signing
                                    >
                                    > > on...we will find a way to get you on if I cannot. Despite being a
                                    >
                                    > > co-host and having recently taken basic computer classes at the library,
                                    >
                                    > > I remain rather slow at these technical things.
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > A few other comments from a 'climate change skeptic's blog to consider
                                    >
                                    > > re: grapes, "Vinland" on the Beothuk in Iceland ...maybe way off track,
                                    >
                                    > > but interesting, nevertheless...
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > -that if "Vinland" referred to Newfoundland and Labrador (formerly
                                    >
                                    > > Newfoundland) where there is an absence of wild grapes, the term could
                                    >
                                    > > have been more a marketing ploy to give the land a good name 'so men
                                    >
                                    > > would want to go there'... -Another comment, and Mr. Samuelsson and our
                                    >
                                    > > member Frode from Norway might have better insight re: this, the old
                                    >
                                    > > norse "Vin" can be interpreted in two ways: modern use of the word
                                    >
                                    > > means "wine", but as in old Norwegian place names it also can mean
                                    >
                                    > > "plain" (e.g. Granvin, Bjørgvin). A likely explanation is that the
                                    >
                                    > > vikings named the continent "Vinland" because the landscape at their
                                    >
                                    > > landing site was open and flat.
                                    >
                                    > > -And, wine was made from ANYTHING that sprouted back around the 1000s,
                                    >
                                    > > not necessarily grapes.
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > Jamey, that archaeological field tech job sounds really interesting...
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > I am sending the new members a greeting email. Let me know if any of
                                    >
                                    > > you older members want a copy, or wish to add your own personal links
                                    >
                                    > > to the present one that needs updating.
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > Thanks, Susan
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > .
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                    > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "james m clark jr"
                                    >
                                    > > <jameyboy@> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > The Vikings called the North American area they explored Vinland
                                    >
                                    > > (pronounced "Winland"), because they found grapes growing there—at
                                    >
                                    > > least in places. Without question, there was a Viking settlement at
                                    >
                                    > > L'Anse-aux-Meadows in Newfoundland. There is also geological evidence
                                    >
                                    > > that the Vikings got at least as far south as Narragansett Bay in Rhode
                                    >
                                    > > Island.
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > source:
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > http://www.stereophile.com/content/fifth-element-28
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > As far as regions and the soverignty of nations how was it possible
                                    >
                                    > > that Labador and Nova Scotia are a part of New England but Newfoundland
                                    >
                                    > > isn't I assume? If profane Christianity is correct in asserting that
                                    >
                                    > > Leif Ericson was a bishop then the Icelandic sagas I assume more or less
                                    >
                                    > > was the penical trasformation of gotterdammerung due to the Irish
                                    >
                                    > > Maidens taken to these aclaimed new lands.
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > be well,
                                    >
                                    > > > jamey
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Steven Steigerwald
                                    >
                                    > > aztalan2008@ wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > With the weather being milder then, how far north did some things
                                    >
                                    > > grow?? Anybody know?Steve
                                    >
                                    > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                                    >
                                    > > > > From: puppet@
                                    >
                                    > > > > Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 22:41:53 +0000
                                    >
                                    > > > > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Beothuks in Iceland?
                                    >
                                    > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > Thanks, David.
                                    >
                                    > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > I did not THINK that grapes grew that far north. Glad to have you
                                    >
                                    > > confirm that.
                                    >
                                    > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > The blow off by Morison is 100% typical of scientists. They pull
                                    >
                                    > > some speculation out of their arses, then with an air of superiority,
                                    >
                                    > > turn on their heel and leave the room. Everyone is supposed to be
                                    >
                                    > > impressed by this bomfoggery and pomposity. Mostly we just shake our
                                    >
                                    > > heads and light a candle for their immortal souls.
                                    >
                                    > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > ALL science is about this: "Though shalt accept as limits only what
                                    >
                                    > > we have found so far - plus 2%."
                                    >
                                    > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > In other words, they are allowed to extrapolate, but only a TINY bit
                                    >
                                    > > outside of what is now known. And even when something like a comet
                                    >
                                    > > smacks Jupiter - right before their very eyes - many of them 16 years
                                    >
                                    > > later deny that such could happen on Earth.
                                    >
                                    > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > Until another site is found further south - by THEIR people - and
                                    >
                                    > > studied for 20 years - by THEIR people, L'Anse will remain the limits of
                                    >
                                    > > what is acceptable. Thus doth science progress, not by leaps and bounds,
                                    >
                                    > > but by clerical monkish types, each poring over manuscripts and
                                    >
                                    > > stretching his career out until he becomes emeritus. Inchworms all...
                                    >
                                    > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > As someone just emailed me today:
                                    >
                                    > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > "I can envision a
                                    >
                                    > > > > time in the future when this generation of orthodox researchers will
                                    >
                                    > > be
                                    >
                                    > > > > lampooned like Mystery Science Theater 3K."
                                    >
                                    > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > Steve
                                    >
                                    > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "David S Brody"
                                    >
                                    > > <DavidSBrody@> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > > Regarding Vinland being located at L'Anse aux Meadows, there are a
                                    >
                                    > > couple of
                                    >
                                    > > > > > passages/references in the Sagas which make us question whether
                                    >
                                    > > northern
                                    >
                                    > > > > > Newfoundland is a viable location:
                                    >
                                    > > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > > 1. A reference to a snowless winter, during which cattle grazed
                                    >
                                    > > freely.
                                    >
                                    > > > > > Average annual snowfall in northern Newfoundland is 150 inches.
                                    >
                                    > > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > > 2. A passage describing how one of the party wanders off,
                                    >
                                    > > discovers
                                    >
                                    > > > > > grape vines and gets drunk. (Hence, the name "Vinland.") Grapes do
                                    >
                                    > > not
                                    >
                                    > > > > > grow as far north as L'Anse aux Meadows.
                                    >
                                    > > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > > The historian, Presidential Medal of Freedom recipient, and
                                    >
                                    > > Pulitzer Prize
                                    >
                                    > > > > > winner Samuel Eliot Morison explains away this second point as
                                    >
                                    > > follows
                                    >
                                    > > > > > (paraphrasing): "Well, we know Leif Ericson's father named
                                    >
                                    > > Greenland
                                    >
                                    > > > > > Greenland when it wasn't really green, so it must be that the son
                                    >
                                    > > Leif
                                    >
                                    > > > > > followed his father's lead and named Vinland Vinland even though
                                    >
                                    > > there were
                                    >
                                    > > > > > no grapes." And with that, the mystery is solved. Perhaps no
                                    >
                                    > > better
                                    >
                                    > > > > > example exists of historians twisting facts to fit existing
                                    >
                                    > > theory. It
                                    >
                                    > > > > > would be comical if it weren't so sad.
                                    >
                                    > > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > > It is likely that the L'Anse aux Meadows site was only a
                                    >
                                    > > stopping-over spot
                                    >
                                    > > > > > on the way to Vinland, further south.
                                    >
                                    > > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > > > Dave Brody
                                    >
                                    > > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > > >
                                    >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    > >
                                    >
                                  • james m clark jr
                                    Ha! Ok I guess that answers a question regarding the name Lonni. I ve never made it to the Grand Canyon and more than likely will be heading south again, but I
                                    Message 17 of 21 , Jan 5, 2011
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                                      Ha! Ok I guess that answers a question regarding the name Lonni.
                                      I've never made it to the Grand Canyon and more than likely will be heading south again, but I may could pitch in on the bail if that hike doesn't exceed to over 82 folks from AWS. If I head west before spring, to see if I can round up a few contract deals for now and hopefully later in fall; visit a few rez along the way, but man, it appears you did major in art.

                                      My aunts sister paid 500.00 for a quarter horse gelding she trained herself and her daughter came in 3rd place in a major comp in Georgia a few years back. The whole family was ecstatic for a while there.

                                      I would like to come back shorly after the rainy season an camp one of the 7 isles below the dam on the Ocmugee and maybe take some pictures of some of you guys walking on water like Buddy and Iggie in Fried Green Tomatotes.

                                      be well,
                                      jamey



                                      --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Lonni Clarke" <lonniclarke@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Ok, I'll quit lurking and say hello. I signed up yesterday after hearing about the group from Rick Ozman on his Oopa Loopa Cafe Show. I have a degree in History, which I of course do not use to make a living, but the interest abides. About six years ago I got Lyme disease and was misdiagnosed. Consequently, the condition became chronic and although I have gained the upper hand with holistic treatments, I spent most of the past six years laying in bed reading, mostly alternative history. I have reached the conclusion that most of what I was taught at UCLA was all a lie. Today I am plunging into taboo historical narratives with great enthusiasm. I paint portraits for a living, for which I have barely a shred of education. It really would have been nice if I had majored in art. www.lonniclarke.com I live in St. George, Utah. I'm not too far from the location of the rumored Egyptian relics found by G.E.Kincaid http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_orionzone_9.htm, so if any of my fellow list members want to drop by and go hiking in the Grand Canyon......and maybe some other list members be ready to post bail for us.....Lonni


                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ----- Original Message -----
                                      > From: Susan
                                      > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                                      > Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 11:20 AM
                                      > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Beothuks in Iceland? Welcome new members
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > All,
                                      >
                                      > Welcome to new members since yesterday, Lonniclarke and kcdirtnorth from "The Northern Shore of the Greatest Lake"; please introduce yourselves when comfortable and perhaps let us know how you heard about our group.
                                      >
                                      > I rec'd a reply from Valdimar Samuelsson this AM that he was having difficulty signing on...most don't have any trouble signing on with non-Yahoo.com email addresses but I have been emailed before by two or three people, (Giza researcher Bernard Pietsch, for one) that they could not get on. I occasionally send Invite messages (at left) to prospective members, which any member here can do. And it has been a decade since I first joined YahooGroups, so I don't remember the process. Members do not need to be approved by the host/co-hosts here to sign on. To sign on, I am assuming non-members can click the subscribe link at the bottom of the Home Page to sign on (on my home page mine is not highlighted):
                                      >
                                      > Subscribe: ancient_waterways_society-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                      >
                                      > I am just mentioning the above in case others have problems signing on...we will find a way to get you on if I cannot. Despite being a co-host and having recently taken basic computer classes at the library, I remain rather slow at these technical things.
                                      >
                                      > A few other comments from a 'climate change skeptic's blog to consider re: grapes, "Vinland" on the Beothuk in Iceland ...maybe way off track, but interesting, nevertheless...
                                      >
                                      > -that if "Vinland" referred to Newfoundland and Labrador (formerly Newfoundland) where there is an absence of wild grapes, the term could have been more a marketing ploy to give the land a good name 'so men would want to go there'...
                                      > -Another comment, and Mr. Samuelsson and our member Frode from Norway might have better insight re: this, the old norse "Vin" can be interpreted in two ways: modern use of the word means "wine", but as in old Norwegian place names it also can mean "plain" (e.g. Granvin, Bjørgvin). A likely explanation is that the vikings named the continent "Vinland" because the landscape at their landing site was open and flat.
                                      >
                                      > -And, wine was made from ANYTHING that sprouted back around the 1000s, not necessarily grapes.
                                      >
                                      > Jamey, that archaeological field tech job sounds really interesting...
                                      >
                                      > I am sending the new members a greeting email. Let me know if any of you older members want a copy, or wish to add your own personal links to the present one that needs updating.
                                      >
                                      > Thanks, Susan
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > .
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "james m clark jr" <jameyboy@> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > > The Vikings called the North American area they explored Vinland (pronounced "Winland"), because they found grapes growing there-at least in places. Without question, there was a Viking settlement at L'Anse-aux-Meadows in Newfoundland. There is also geological evidence that the Vikings got at least as far south as Narragansett Bay in Rhode Island.
                                      > >
                                      > > source:
                                      > >
                                      > > http://www.stereophile.com/content/fifth-element-28
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > > As far as regions and the soverignty of nations how was it possible that Labador and Nova Scotia are a part of New England but Newfoundland isn't I assume? If profane Christianity is correct in asserting that Leif Ericson was a bishop then the Icelandic sagas I assume more or less was the penical trasformation of gotterdammerung due to the Irish Maidens taken to these aclaimed new lands.
                                      > >
                                      > > be well,
                                      > > jamey
                                      > >
                                      > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Steven Steigerwald aztalan2008@ wrote:
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > With the weather being milder then, how far north did some things grow?? Anybody know?Steve
                                      > > >
                                      > > > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                                      > > > From: puppet@
                                      > > > Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 22:41:53 +0000
                                      > > > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Beothuks in Iceland?
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Thanks, David.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > I did not THINK that grapes grew that far north. Glad to have you confirm that.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > The blow off by Morison is 100% typical of scientists. They pull some speculation out of their arses, then with an air of superiority, turn on their heel and leave the room. Everyone is supposed to be impressed by this bomfoggery and pomposity. Mostly we just shake our heads and light a candle for their immortal souls.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > ALL science is about this: "Though shalt accept as limits only what we have found so far - plus 2%."
                                      > > >
                                      > > > In other words, they are allowed to extrapolate, but only a TINY bit outside of what is now known. And even when something like a comet smacks Jupiter - right before their very eyes - many of them 16 years later deny that such could happen on Earth.
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Until another site is found further south - by THEIR people - and studied for 20 years - by THEIR people, L'Anse will remain the limits of what is acceptable. Thus doth science progress, not by leaps and bounds, but by clerical monkish types, each poring over manuscripts and stretching his career out until he becomes emeritus. Inchworms all...
                                      > > >
                                      > > > As someone just emailed me today:
                                      > > >
                                      > > > "I can envision a
                                      > > > time in the future when this generation of orthodox researchers will be
                                      > > > lampooned like Mystery Science Theater 3K."
                                      > > >
                                      > > > Steve
                                      > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "David S Brody" <DavidSBrody@> wrote:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Regarding Vinland being located at L'Anse aux Meadows, there are a couple of
                                      > > > > passages/references in the Sagas which make us question whether northern
                                      > > > > Newfoundland is a viable location:
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > 1. A reference to a snowless winter, during which cattle grazed freely.
                                      > > > > Average annual snowfall in northern Newfoundland is 150 inches.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > 2. A passage describing how one of the party wanders off, discovers
                                      > > > > grape vines and gets drunk. (Hence, the name "Vinland.") Grapes do not
                                      > > > > grow as far north as L'Anse aux Meadows.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > The historian, Presidential Medal of Freedom recipient, and Pulitzer Prize
                                      > > > > winner Samuel Eliot Morison explains away this second point as follows
                                      > > > > (paraphrasing): "Well, we know Leif Ericson's father named Greenland
                                      > > > > Greenland when it wasn't really green, so it must be that the son Leif
                                      > > > > followed his father's lead and named Vinland Vinland even though there were
                                      > > > > no grapes." And with that, the mystery is solved. Perhaps no better
                                      > > > > example exists of historians twisting facts to fit existing theory. It
                                      > > > > would be comical if it weren't so sad.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > It is likely that the L'Anse aux Meadows site was only a stopping-over spot
                                      > > > > on the way to Vinland, further south.
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > >
                                      > > > > Dave Brody
                                      > > > >
                                      > > >
                                      > >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
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                                    • Martin Carriere
                                      Nice work on the art there Lonni.   Guess we should all bring our rubber boots and gear for a nice stroll. Best and welcome   Martin ... From: james m clark
                                      Message 18 of 21 , Jan 5, 2011
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                                        Nice work on the art there Lonni.
                                         
                                        Guess we should all bring our rubber boots and gear for a nice stroll.
                                        Best and welcome
                                         
                                        Martin

                                        --- On Wed, 1/5/11, james m clark jr <jameyboy@...> wrote:

                                        From: james m clark jr <jameyboy@...>
                                        Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Beothuks in Iceland? Welcome new members
                                        To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                                        Received: Wednesday, January 5, 2011, 5:49 PM

                                         
                                        Ha! Ok I guess that answers a question regarding the name Lonni.
                                        I've never made it to the Grand Canyon and more than likely will be heading south again, but I may could pitch in on the bail if that hike doesn't exceed to over 82 folks from AWS. If I head west before spring, to see if I can round up a few contract deals for now and hopefully later in fall; visit a few rez along the way, but man, it appears you did major in art.

                                        My aunts sister paid 500.00 for a quarter horse gelding she trained herself and her daughter came in 3rd place in a major comp in Georgia a few years back. The whole family was ecstatic for a while there.

                                        I would like to come back shorly after the rainy season an camp one of the 7 isles below the dam on the Ocmugee and maybe take some pictures of some of you guys walking on water like Buddy and Iggie in Fried Green Tomatotes.

                                        be well,
                                        jamey

                                        --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Lonni Clarke" <lonniclarke@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Ok, I'll quit lurking and say hello. I signed up yesterday after hearing about the group from Rick Ozman on his Oopa Loopa Cafe Show. I have a degree in History, which I of course do not use to make a living, but the interest abides. About six years ago I got Lyme disease and was misdiagnosed. Consequently, the condition became chronic and although I have gained the upper hand with holistic treatments, I spent most of the past six years laying in bed reading, mostly alternative history. I have reached the conclusion that most of what I was taught at UCLA was all a lie. Today I am plunging into taboo historical narratives with great enthusiasm. I paint portraits for a living, for which I have barely a shred of education. It really would have been nice if I had majored in art. www.lonniclarke.com I live in St. George, Utah. I'm not too far from the location of the rumored Egyptian relics found by G.E.Kincaid http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_orionzone_9.htm, so if any of my fellow list members want to drop by and go hiking in the Grand Canyon......and maybe some other list members be ready to post bail for us.....Lonni

                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ----- Original Message -----
                                        > From: Susan
                                        > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                                        > Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 11:20 AM
                                        > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Beothuks in Iceland? Welcome new members
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > All,
                                        >
                                        > Welcome to new members since yesterday, Lonniclarke and kcdirtnorth from "The Northern Shore of the Greatest Lake"; please introduce yourselves when comfortable and perhaps let us know how you heard about our group.
                                        >
                                        > I rec'd a reply from Valdimar Samuelsson this AM that he was having difficulty signing on...most don't have any trouble signing on with non-Yahoo.com email addresses but I have been emailed before by two or three people, (Giza researcher Bernard Pietsch, for one) that they could not get on. I occasionally send Invite messages (at left) to prospective members, which any member here can do. And it has been a decade since I first joined YahooGroups, so I don't remember the process. Members do not need to be approved by the host/co-hosts here to sign on. To sign on, I am assuming non-members can click the subscribe link at the bottom of the Home Page to sign on (on my home page mine is not highlighted):
                                        >
                                        > Subscribe: ancient_waterways_society-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                        >
                                        > I am just mentioning the above in case others have problems signing on...we will find a way to get you on if I cannot. Despite being a co-host and having recently taken basic computer classes at the library, I remain rather slow at these technical things.
                                        >
                                        > A few other comments from a 'climate change skeptic's blog to consider re: grapes, "Vinland" on the Beothuk in Iceland ...maybe way off track, but interesting, nevertheless...
                                        >
                                        > -that if "Vinland" referred to Newfoundland and Labrador (formerly Newfoundland) where there is an absence of wild grapes, the term could have been more a marketing ploy to give the land a good name 'so men would want to go there'...
                                        > -Another comment, and Mr. Samuelsson and our member Frode from Norway might have better insight re: this, the old norse "Vin" can be interpreted in two ways: modern use of the word means "wine", but as in old Norwegian place names it also can mean "plain" (e.g. Granvin, Bjørgvin). A likely explanation is that the vikings named the continent "Vinland" because the landscape at their landing site was open and flat.
                                        >
                                        > -And, wine was made from ANYTHING that sprouted back around the 1000s, not necessarily grapes.
                                        >
                                        > Jamey, that archaeological field tech job sounds really interesting...
                                        >
                                        > I am sending the new members a greeting email. Let me know if any of you older members want a copy, or wish to add your own personal links to the present one that needs updating.
                                        >
                                        > Thanks, Susan
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > .
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "james m clark jr" <jameyboy@> wrote:
                                        > >
                                        > > The Vikings called the North American area they explored Vinland (pronounced "Winland"), because they found grapes growing there-at least in places. Without question, there was a Viking settlement at L'Anse-aux-Meadows in Newfoundland. There is also geological evidence that the Vikings got at least as far south as Narragansett Bay in Rhode Island.
                                        > >
                                        > > source:
                                        > >
                                        > > http://www.stereophile.com/content/fifth-element-28
                                        > >
                                        > >
                                        > > As far as regions and the soverignty of nations how was it possible that Labador and Nova Scotia are a part of New England but Newfoundland isn't I assume? If profane Christianity is correct in asserting that Leif Ericson was a bishop then the Icelandic sagas I assume more or less was the penical trasformation of gotterdammerung due to the Irish Maidens taken to these aclaimed new lands.
                                        > >
                                        > > be well,
                                        > > jamey
                                        > >
                                        > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Steven Steigerwald aztalan2008@ wrote:
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > With the weather being milder then, how far north did some things grow?? Anybody know?Steve
                                        > > >
                                        > > > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                                        > > > From: puppet@
                                        > > > Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 22:41:53 +0000
                                        > > > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Beothuks in Iceland?
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Thanks, David.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > I did not THINK that grapes grew that far north. Glad to have you confirm that.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > The blow off by Morison is 100% typical of scientists. They pull some speculation out of their arses, then with an air of superiority, turn on their heel and leave the room. Everyone is supposed to be impressed by this bomfoggery and pomposity. Mostly we just shake our heads and light a candle for their immortal souls.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > ALL science is about this: "Though shalt accept as limits only what we have found so far - plus 2%."
                                        > > >
                                        > > > In other words, they are allowed to extrapolate, but only a TINY bit outside of what is now known. And even when something like a comet smacks Jupiter - right before their very eyes - many of them 16 years later deny that such could happen on Earth.
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Until another site is found further south - by THEIR people - and studied for 20 years - by THEIR people, L'Anse will remain the limits of what is acceptable. Thus doth science progress, not by leaps and bounds, but by clerical monkish types, each poring over manuscripts and stretching his career out until he becomes emeritus. Inchworms all...
                                        > > >
                                        > > > As someone just emailed me today:
                                        > > >
                                        > > > "I can envision a
                                        > > > time in the future when this generation of orthodox researchers will be
                                        > > > lampooned like Mystery Science Theater 3K."
                                        > > >
                                        > > > Steve
                                        > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "David S Brody" <DavidSBrody@> wrote:
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Regarding Vinland being located at L'Anse aux Meadows, there are a couple of
                                        > > > > passages/references in the Sagas which make us question whether northern
                                        > > > > Newfoundland is a viable location:
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > 1. A reference to a snowless winter, during which cattle grazed freely.
                                        > > > > Average annual snowfall in northern Newfoundland is 150 inches.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > 2. A passage describing how one of the party wanders off, discovers
                                        > > > > grape vines and gets drunk. (Hence, the name "Vinland.") Grapes do not
                                        > > > > grow as far north as L'Anse aux Meadows.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > The historian, Presidential Medal of Freedom recipient, and Pulitzer Prize
                                        > > > > winner Samuel Eliot Morison explains away this second point as follows
                                        > > > > (paraphrasing): "Well, we know Leif Ericson's father named Greenland
                                        > > > > Greenland when it wasn't really green, so it must be that the son Leif
                                        > > > > followed his father's lead and named Vinland Vinland even though there were
                                        > > > > no grapes." And with that, the mystery is solved. Perhaps no better
                                        > > > > example exists of historians twisting facts to fit existing theory. It
                                        > > > > would be comical if it weren't so sad.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > It is likely that the L'Anse aux Meadows site was only a stopping-over spot
                                        > > > > on the way to Vinland, further south.
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > >
                                        > > > > Dave Brody
                                        > > > >
                                        > > >
                                        > >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                        >
                                        > Teach InfoWest Spam Trap if this mail is spam:
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                                        > Not spam
                                        > Forget previous vote
                                        >
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                                        >
                                        > ----------------------------------------------------------
                                        >
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                                        > ----------------------------------------------------------
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                                        > No virus found in this message.
                                        > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
                                        > Version: 10.0.1170 / Virus Database: 426/3300 - Release Date: 12/06/10
                                        >


                                      • james m clark jr
                                        Rubber boots for the Grand Canyon? Not at Ocmulgee River anyway, perhaps some worn out hiking boots, sneakers with good soles [Vans, Lifestyle Sketchers Dr
                                        Message 19 of 21 , Jan 6, 2011
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                                          Rubber boots for the Grand Canyon?

                                          Not at Ocmulgee River anyway, perhaps some worn out hiking boots, sneakers with good soles [Vans, Lifestyle Sketchers Dr Sholles, or similar soles]or your kids shoes you may be tired of, but you really need them; ha! rather than considering just trashing them or making them toss'em out around spring cleaning. Waders wouldn't be any good either, to hot and risky "bob like cork" on the slimy rocks in deeper water that should be avoided as much as possible before waders fill up and the current and weight overpower you if you're not together or alone. It's best to just get wet even though snakes are in the area they are no real threat, although gators have been spotted as far north as Macon. Just last year we had a 14 footer down here. I don't really know how far up river they have been spotted. Really have given it much thought as far as exercise as I use to run, but I'd rather swim up river with those new hydraulic fins.

                                          About the only thing boots would be good for would be to drown the coals before covering & leaving I usually use wet sand and cover. You may not want to do that during the day the horsefly's are huge but not really a problem and as big at that time either. Although mosquitoes should be the state bird they're not that bad on the Isles I usually just rub some oak leaves on my arms and enjoy the day. Although my traditional attire in the last decade use to be worn out albino pythons with jeans or barefoot and cut off shorts or trunks. As far as walking on the dam the grass provides a good footing even if the water is a foot or so over the wall. The grass also provide all the fish bait one would need. All the fish love hellgramites or shad neither of which I use much unless it's not a good day to fish although I prefer shad lures, many of which can be found in the rocks and rune cheep rubber waders anyway. The water can be ice cold but on a sunny day it is quit pleasant.

                                          I have considered investing in some land at this dam I have been coming here my entire life. But to build a little ceder shack providing a stove, shower & restroom table and a little more like accommodation comforts that would not wash away I'd need to put it on stilts preferably of old ribbed beans from a old train bridge may pass inspection in the historic district.

                                          be well brother & sisters,
                                          jamey




                                          --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Martin Carriere <metismartin@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Nice work on the art there Lonni.
                                          >  
                                          > Guess we should all bring our rubber boots and gear for a nice stroll.
                                          > Best and welcome
                                          >  
                                          > Martin
                                          >
                                          > --- On Wed, 1/5/11, james m clark jr <jameyboy@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > From: james m clark jr <jameyboy@...>
                                          > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Beothuks in Iceland? Welcome new members
                                          > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                                          > Received: Wednesday, January 5, 2011, 5:49 PM
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >  
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > Ha! Ok I guess that answers a question regarding the name Lonni.
                                          > I've never made it to the Grand Canyon and more than likely will be heading south again, but I may could pitch in on the bail if that hike doesn't exceed to over 82 folks from AWS. If I head west before spring, to see if I can round up a few contract deals for now and hopefully later in fall; visit a few rez along the way, but man, it appears you did major in art.
                                          >
                                          > My aunts sister paid 500.00 for a quarter horse gelding she trained herself and her daughter came in 3rd place in a major comp in Georgia a few years back. The whole family was ecstatic for a while there.
                                          >
                                          > I would like to come back shorly after the rainy season an camp one of the 7 isles below the dam on the Ocmugee and maybe take some pictures of some of you guys walking on water like Buddy and Iggie in Fried Green Tomatotes.
                                          >
                                          > be well,
                                          > jamey
                                          >
                                          > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "Lonni Clarke" <lonniclarke@> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > > Ok, I'll quit lurking and say hello. I signed up yesterday after hearing about the group from Rick Ozman on his Oopa Loopa Cafe Show. I have a degree in History, which I of course do not use to make a living, but the interest abides. About six years ago I got Lyme disease and was misdiagnosed. Consequently, the condition became chronic and although I have gained the upper hand with holistic treatments, I spent most of the past six years laying in bed reading, mostly alternative history. I have reached the conclusion that most of what I was taught at UCLA was all a lie. Today I am plunging into taboo historical narratives with great enthusiasm. I paint portraits for a living, for which I have barely a shred of education. It really would have been nice if I had majored in art. www.lonniclarke.com I live in St. George, Utah. I'm not too far from the location of the rumored Egyptian relics found by G.E.Kincaid
                                          > http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/esp_orionzone_9.htm, so if any of my fellow list members want to drop by and go hiking in the Grand Canyon......and maybe some other list members be ready to post bail for us.....Lonni
                                          >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > ----- Original Message -----
                                          > > From: Susan
                                          > > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > Sent: Monday, December 06, 2010 11:20 AM
                                          > > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Beothuks in Iceland? Welcome new members
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > All,
                                          > >
                                          > > Welcome to new members since yesterday, Lonniclarke and kcdirtnorth from "The Northern Shore of the Greatest Lake"; please introduce yourselves when comfortable and perhaps let us know how you heard about our group.
                                          > >
                                          > > I rec'd a reply from Valdimar Samuelsson this AM that he was having difficulty signing on...most don't have any trouble signing on with non-Yahoo.com email addresses but I have been emailed before by two or three people, (Giza researcher Bernard Pietsch, for one) that they could not get on. I occasionally send Invite messages (at left) to prospective members, which any member here can do. And it has been a decade since I first joined YahooGroups, so I don't remember the process. Members do not need to be approved by the host/co-hosts here to sign on. To sign on, I am assuming non-members can click the subscribe link at the bottom of the Home Page to sign on (on my home page mine is not highlighted):
                                          > >
                                          > > Subscribe: ancient_waterways_society-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                          > >
                                          > > I am just mentioning the above in case others have problems signing on...we will find a way to get you on if I cannot. Despite being a co-host and having recently taken basic computer classes at the library, I remain rather slow at these technical things.
                                          > >
                                          > > A few other comments from a 'climate change skeptic's blog to consider re: grapes, "Vinland" on the Beothuk in Iceland ...maybe way off track, but interesting, nevertheless...
                                          > >
                                          > > -that if "Vinland" referred to Newfoundland and Labrador (formerly Newfoundland) where there is an absence of wild grapes, the term could have been more a marketing ploy to give the land a good name 'so men would want to go there'...
                                          > > -Another comment, and Mr. Samuelsson and our member Frode from Norway might have better insight re: this, the old norse "Vin" can be interpreted in two ways: modern use of the word means "wine", but as in old Norwegian place names it also can mean "plain" (e.g. Granvin, Bjørgvin). A likely explanation is that the vikings named the continent "Vinland" because the landscape at their landing site was open and flat.
                                          > >
                                          > > -And, wine was made from ANYTHING that sprouted back around the 1000s, not necessarily grapes.
                                          > >
                                          > > Jamey, that archaeological field tech job sounds really interesting...
                                          > >
                                          > > I am sending the new members a greeting email. Let me know if any of you older members want a copy, or wish to add your own personal links to the present one that needs updating.
                                          > >
                                          > > Thanks, Susan
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > .
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "james m clark jr" <jameyboy@> wrote:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > The Vikings called the North American area they explored Vinland (pronounced "Winland"), because they found grapes growing there-at least in places. Without question, there was a Viking settlement at L'Anse-aux-Meadows in Newfoundland. There is also geological evidence that the Vikings got at least as far south as Narragansett Bay in Rhode Island.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > source:
                                          > > >
                                          > > > http://www.stereophile.com/content/fifth-element-28
                                          > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > > > As far as regions and the soverignty of nations how was it possible that Labador and Nova Scotia are a part of New England but Newfoundland isn't I assume? If profane Christianity is correct in asserting that Leif Ericson was a bishop then the Icelandic sagas I assume more or less was the penical trasformation of gotterdammerung due to the Irish Maidens taken to these aclaimed new lands.
                                          > > >
                                          > > > be well,
                                          > > > jamey
                                          > > >
                                          > > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Steven Steigerwald aztalan2008@ wrote:
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > With the weather being milder then, how far north did some things grow?? Anybody know?Steve
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
                                          > > > > From: puppet@
                                          > > > > Date: Sat, 4 Dec 2010 22:41:53 +0000
                                          > > > > Subject: [ancient_waterways_society] Re: Beothuks in Iceland?
                                          > > > >
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                                          > > > > Thanks, David.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > I did not THINK that grapes grew that far north. Glad to have you confirm that.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > The blow off by Morison is 100% typical of scientists. They pull some speculation out of their arses, then with an air of superiority, turn on their heel and leave the room. Everyone is supposed to be impressed by this bomfoggery and pomposity. Mostly we just shake our heads and light a candle for their immortal souls.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > ALL science is about this: "Though shalt accept as limits only what we have found so far - plus 2%."
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > In other words, they are allowed to extrapolate, but only a TINY bit outside of what is now known. And even when something like a comet smacks Jupiter - right before their very eyes - many of them 16 years later deny that such could happen on Earth.
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Until another site is found further south - by THEIR people - and studied for 20 years - by THEIR people, L'Anse will remain the limits of what is acceptable. Thus doth science progress, not by leaps and bounds, but by clerical monkish types, each poring over manuscripts and stretching his career out until he becomes emeritus. Inchworms all...
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > As someone just emailed me today:
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > "I can envision a
                                          > > > > time in the future when this generation of orthodox researchers will be
                                          > > > > lampooned like Mystery Science Theater 3K."
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > Steve
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > > > --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, "David S Brody" <DavidSBrody@> wrote:
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > Regarding Vinland being located at L'Anse aux Meadows, there are a couple of
                                          > > > > > passages/references in the Sagas which make us question whether northern
                                          > > > > > Newfoundland is a viable location:
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > 1. A reference to a snowless winter, during which cattle grazed freely.
                                          > > > > > Average annual snowfall in northern Newfoundland is 150 inches.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > 2. A passage describing how one of the party wanders off, discovers
                                          > > > > > grape vines and gets drunk. (Hence, the name "Vinland.") Grapes do not
                                          > > > > > grow as far north as L'Anse aux Meadows.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > The historian, Presidential Medal of Freedom recipient, and Pulitzer Prize
                                          > > > > > winner Samuel Eliot Morison explains away this second point as follows
                                          > > > > > (paraphrasing): "Well, we know Leif Ericson's father named Greenland
                                          > > > > > Greenland when it wasn't really green, so it must be that the son Leif
                                          > > > > > followed his father's lead and named Vinland Vinland even though there were
                                          > > > > > no grapes." And with that, the mystery is solved. Perhaps no better
                                          > > > > > example exists of historians twisting facts to fit existing theory. It
                                          > > > > > would be comical if it weren't so sad.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > It is likely that the L'Anse aux Meadows site was only a stopping-over spot
                                          > > > > > on the way to Vinland, further south.
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > > > Dave Brody
                                          > > > > >
                                          > > > >
                                          > > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
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