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Re: [thor-thehuntersohiorock] Fw: Buffalo

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  • Ted Sojka
    Dear Group Discussion on Buffalo in Ohio. Here is a note about ancient Ice Age animals from this area. A set of Moose Horns of the mega-fauna type were found
    Message 1 of 4 , Jun 25, 2010
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      Dear Group Discussion on Buffalo in Ohio.  

      Here is a note about ancient Ice Age animals from this area.  

      A set of Moose Horns of the mega-fauna type were found in the mud on and island eroding in the Mississippi River by a fisherman.  These animals were around at the time of giant Bison as well as the Mammoths.  I have heard lectures stating that the Eastern Herd of Bison was less than the estimated 1.3 Billion of the Western herd.  It was somewhere under the 1 Billion amount, but still that was a lot of Bison.  I also remember reading accounts of the last small group of Eastern Bison being shot in Pennsylvania by farmers angry with fencing being broken up by the remaining animals, some time early in the 1800's. They surrounded the small herd and shot at it wholesale. One hopes they at least used the meat.

      My personal belief is that the mound groups were not constructed for such utilitarian uses as confinement of animals as this group has been discussing.  

      Below is an example of an earthwork recently found by the lidar image process that shows a Peregrine Falcon effigy mound that is near Cassville WI.  It measures 270 wingtip to tip.  There are many others here at Effigy Mounds National Monument in the 60 to 100 foot range in width. along with bears and other animals just a few miles away.  They are like giant animal crackers made of tons of earth carried up these bluffs from the Mississippi bottoms.  Some have layers of different colored soil depending on what the river brought at times when annual or even less regular maintenance was done centuries ago.  Some mounds like the ghost eagle mound along the Wisconsin River bottoms were so large that were not discovered until aerial photography as they were thousands of feet long.  They did not look like anything until people had a way to view them from above.  These have been confirmed by Satellite images.

      An archeologist of the Ho Chunk Nation in Wisconsin who is himself a Seneca, says these massive earthworks were like a pop up book on the ground, representing things in the night sky.  In this case of this Peregrine, maybe the day sky.    The older residents of the area have told Audubon Society members that when they were young, before radio and TV, they watched the falcons chase off eagles from their cliffside nests, and dispatch the much larger raptors with great speed and precision.  For them it was entertainment.  

      The population of migrating birds is growing after years of help with nesting problems due to DDT used along the river and in the adjacent farm fields which caused the eggs to become too thin to hatch naturally.  Eggs were collected, chicks fed by hand until they were old enough to survive predators and sometimes even returned to nests or nest boxes that were placed in protected areas as the numbers did not allow raccoon and possum to endanger the young birds.  After many years they now are breeding on their own, their DNA is mapped and closely followed.  Some city skyscrapers and even Coal fired chimneys on power plants were used in this save the falcons project.   Search for the Raptor Resource Center run by Bob Anderson and you will learn more if you wish.   

      I think these ancient images like the one below were in honor of the creators work.  Carry a basket of earth up the steepest hill in your area and you gain an appreciation of the ancient peoples work.  In the 70's I worked with young students carrying bags of lime to outline some of the mounds in Effigy Mounds National Monument.  A bag of ag lime on an eagle scout back pack, was a daunting task for the youngsters, and those of us who tried to keep up with them.   Excavations are no longer allowed in mounds but when this was done one could actually see tamping marks made by ancient baskets in the clay of the layers of the soin in the mounds.  

      The work was done by Dr. R. Clark Mallam of Luther College in Northeast Iowa.  The white outlines were the only way to see the mounds from the air and see the relationship they had to each other.  One in particular group of mounds always reminded me of the big dipper constellation.  When he was dying from cancer he wistfully said these images were the interface of the world here on earth and whatever the world we call heaven, or their native version of this place.  

      Think about when food production and gathering was the main job of people who lived in this place 1200 or more years ago. They would spend much Summer hunting time to do this work as a group. There is plenty of evidence that the mounds were cleared and sometimes burned before new layers were added.  They were not built like dam with speed in completion as the task like modern methods of hillside erosion pond dams or earthworks.  This was ritual work and some say in the archeological community, that a population increase made a surplus of people and Summer food from the river available to create these effigies.

      We don't know the whole story and it is very hard to put our mind sets at the task of interpreting those who lived here a thousand or more years ago.  I was an art educator and just appreciate the beauty and magnitude of the projects.   In my town we bulldozed some of the mounds back in the 1950's for flood control levees, as we built without the knowledge of how high the water can get.  The mounds were built above the flood plain.  I was told they could be seen by travelers on the ancient canoe trails that showed that there was fish, game, and good water, in the area for the traveller.  The Ho-Chunk Archeologist said the mounds in some cases were like the road signs along the Interstate Highway, informing the traveller of food, fuel, and lodging.  Think on that awhile and it makes sense.

      A few years ago the town put in a homage to the mound builders to honor what was removed, and eagle scouts carried the earth to make the mound permanent.  It was covered in Prairie Grasses, and I had the honor and privilege to help them design an image similar to the one below.  A smoke ceremony was done to bless the valley by a native descendant of those who bear the town and counties name.  He said wisely,"that anything that honors those who have walked here before us is a good thing"   

      Ted Sojka
      Native Earthworks Preservation / Iowa


      PS  Enjoy your discussion and think big,

      The discussion below might be of interest to some of you, or not, and some might want to add to the discussion in this group who have knowledge about this area.  I know the tribes in Iowa had access to Bison Scapulas that were used to make hoes for tilling soil.  They traded these to the natives East of them in Wisconsin for awhile, as the bison had disappeared in that area.  I have been to Bison shaped mounds in the middle of Wisconsin, and know they must have been there at some time.  Scientific investigation can now tell us where old bison bones originated, as well as human bones, by what is contained in them.  A marvelous use of technology to peer back into the world of those who were here before us. 
       



      I don't think anyone knows for sure when the first buffalo came into Ky or the last one left. For sure, they were in my area at one time as bones (skulls) have been found in shelters in the Red River Gorge area - but they are scarce. An archeolgist friend thinks they moved east into the area around 1500 and probably survived into the 1700s, as you have stated, Charles. No rock carvings that I know of depict anything connected to buffalo. One site, Little Mud Creek pictograph site, in Johnson County, near Paintsville, was noted by Funkhauser and Webb (1932, 206), who received information from W.E. Connelly and Mitchell Hall:  "high sandstone cliffs were decorated with figures of turtles, rattlesnakes, bears, panthers, buffaloes, and human figures ---." Rock Art of Kentucky: Coy, Fuller, Meadows, and Swauger, 1997. Al C.
       
      ----- Original Message -----
      Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 6:50 AM
      Subject: Re: [thor-thehuntersohi orock] Fw: Buffalo Ball

       

      William, all,
      Well, I could be way, way off base here, but I'm not sure Buffalo were in Ky. during woodland and Adena/Hopewell period.
      I know for a fact that I have never, not once ever, found a single buffalo bone in any Fort Ancient trash pit.
      I've never found a buffalo bone in any Adena or Hopewell campsite or village either, although I am more experienced with Fort Ancient.
      Fellows, I just don't think buffalo were a major factor in Kentucky until around 1675-1725.
      Black bear---yes.
      White tail deer and elk-yep.
      But no buffalo.
      Not a single one, as far as Fort Ancient.
      Does anyone have any archaeological documents stating buffalo found in Kentucky Hopewell?
      I sure haven't seen it.
      I'm just saying!!!!!!

      --- On Fri, 6/11/10, william smith <wmsmithrock1@ yahoo.com> wrote:

      From: william smith <wmsmithrock1@ yahoo.com>
      Subject: [thor-thehuntersohi orock] Fw: Buffalo Ball
      To: thor-thehuntersohio rock@yahoogroups .com
      Date: Friday, June 11, 2010, 11:24 AM

       
      Hi All
        Myron and I are Getting our Dung together.
      William


      ----- Forwarded Message ----
      From: william smith <wmsmithrock1@ yahoo.com>
      To: Myron Paine <myronpaine@frozentr ail.org>
      Sent: Fri, June 11, 2010 11:16:48 AM
      Subject: Re: Buffalo Ball

      Myron
        Being raised on a farm and understanding the importance of regulating live stock by butchering in the fall after the grass goes stable may have been the practice used by the hopewell in days gone by. 
        With millions of Bison running wild and a good resource for food it makes a lot of sence to capture a few and save until needed or cold weather would help preserve the meat. 
        One 1000 lb Bison would generate about 400 lbs of good meat in todays market. We would have the kids pick up the dried dung to heat the round house during the winter. 
        If we built a low wall octagon structure with door openings for our round house we could coral the Bison in the octagon area and the kids would not have to go far to gather dung wood for our fire to cook the meat. 
        We could have a national holiday called Dung Day and invite all that have a Hopewell Road address to come together to gather dung and chew the fat.
        If we had unwanted guest traveling on our road we could stampede the herd to drive them out. 
       The Native Americans have said that Kentucky was land that was sacred for hunting game and treated this land different than Ohio in that not many large settlements were found their. Could the Native people have been smart enough to let the Bison go back south of the Ohio River in safety in order to get their shit together for another year?
        I think we have a title for another book (DUNG ON THE HOPEWELL ROAD)
      William


      From: Myron Paine <myronpaine@frozentr ail.org>
      To: wmsmithrock1@ yahoo.com
      Cc: Rick Ozmon <ozman@rtccom. net>
      Sent: Fri, June 11, 2010 9:21:21 AM
      Subject: Buffalo Ball

      William,

      You made an interesting hypothesis last evening about buffalo.

      Imagine that we were in the Newark Ohio area about 4,00 years ago.  In the fall we watch our meat supply walk away.  It will be a looong cold winter.

      Gee, it would be nice to catch and hold some of them buffalo so we could pick them off as we need them during the winter.  Well, how about a large pen, say a circle with water inside,

      Ya, but there would not be enough food for them all winter.  Hey, we see them eat dried grass if they have to.  We would have to  haul in grass.

      Ya, but I am not going to carry an arm load of dried grass into a buffalo herd.  I want my kids to grow up with a daddy.  OK so lets build a walk way on top of the pen walla.  Then the wife and kids could carry ib hay and throw it down.

      Well, maybe, but how can we kill one or two without starting a stampede?

      Ah, maybe we could somehow lure one or two out of the pen and run them between low walls to a killing pen.  Hmm, they do avoid us if possible, so if the whole tribe stood on low embankments maybe we could make that happen.  We might wand to use a different shape.  One where the guys could stand high enough and near enough to use their alts-alts.

      Well, maybe, but I don't think it would work.

      ____________ _________ _________ -

      Then about 500 years later our descendents might sit around a campfire and talk.

      Ya, know that big round pen has been used for ages, it is pretty messy.  The wives and kids do not want to carry dried grass up and over all winter.  Maybe there might be a better way,

      I have been thinking,

      Oh, no--that/s bad!

      If we made another pen with a different shape, say an octagon we could have more entries and make the entry ways different.  Then we could use less wood if we made a short wall just inside each entry way.

      Won't work.

      We could stack the dried grass all the way around the pen.  The wife and the kids could  just carry it to the nearest entry way and throw it over the short wall.  Just a little climbing, maybe.

      Hm the wife may like that.  If we made the walls straight the atl-alt guys could line up and maybe bring down the nearest buffao  with out use having to get the whole tribe involved.  But those events were sorta fun.  The young men could show off.
      ____________ ___
      About 100 years later, the great-grand kids might say:

      Ya know, that Octagon shape works well.  We are even penning a few of the buffalo so we can get easy meat even in summer, but it bothers me that we lose  so many buffalo calves because they get trampled in the milling herd.  If we could keep them safe, they may become like pets, like the dogs.  Then herding them might be easier.

      Ya, but, How do you get them out of the milling herd? Well , you lure the pregnent buffalo into another holding pen and keep her there until she calves.

      Ya but there would be lots of pregnant buffalo and the kids are tired of carrying dirt.  We could make one large area with a circular wall to use a minimum of dirt might work.  Maybe.
      ____________ _________ ________

      So, William, I have stuck a few "sticky notes" onto you "Buffalo ball"  I am passing the ball back to you.

      RUN!

      Myron Paine, Ph. D., Author of Frozen Trail to Merica,
      "... to the [west], in the darkness they walk and walk, all of them."
      Pub Galde Press, Quality books make a differnce. www.galdepress. com 
      Algonquin is Old Norse; http://www.frozentr ail.org/reviews/ newsarticle







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    • Susan
      Excellent post, Ted; thank you for taking time to put it together and submit to the groups. I ran a print to take with me next trip down the Mississippi
      Message 2 of 4 , Jun 29, 2010
      • 0 Attachment
        Excellent post, Ted;  thank you for taking time to put it together and submit to the groups.  I ran a print to take with me next trip down the Mississippi south of here.
        Three hours were spent Saturday night at Perkins reading posts with one of our members. Jim Scherz  commented on the Buffalo0Bison post and a number of letters, files, photos that many here have sent.  Even the manager of the restaurant started looking over our shoulders at my screen.
         
        Jim ordered a couple of copies of last week's History Channel documentary (Who Really Discovered America) including a complimentary copy for me to become another addition to our Ancient Waterways loaner box.  It won't be delivered here for a few weeks, then I am wondering if perhaps Pam, Simon Brighton, Martin Carriere and other members living outside the United States who cannot access cable TV/History Channel programs might want to borrow the DVD. 
         
        We also spent a hour reading the posts/files on the epigraphic material Chris P. did last January on the Copper Country petroglyhs.  Scherz was intrigued at the comment Zena made about the triangles; a Search on the topography around Hidden Mt, NM and the Decologue Stone near Los Lunas (Cherokee-Hebrew inscription?).  a question rose,  Zena, as to whether you have done any translating at that site.
         
        It is a real pleasure for me when I get visitors to my home or meet with folks at conferences and informal meetings to talk about some of the materials this membership submits.  Hopefully opportunities will increase for all of you in your localities the more the public seeks alternative answers, and as these types of investigations continue to become mainstream.  The current media presentations, books, and even serious work members of many Internet groups are putting into Posts and Files are also undoubtedly changing minds,  rewriting history, and hopefully ways we live and engage with each other globally as old erroneous historical assumptions are exposed and investigators wade deeper into the once-obscure 'pre-history'.
         
        Scott Wolter sent a reply last night that 'they' are working on a third History Channel film that he thinks will be the best one yet.  Which sounds to me as though the documentary is still en process.
         
        Susan

        --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...> wrote:
        >
        > Dear Group Discussion on Buffalo in Ohio.
        >
        > Here is a note about ancient Ice Age animals from this area.
        >
        > A set of Moose Horns of the mega-fauna type were found in the mud on
        > and island eroding in the Mississippi River by a fisherman. These
        > animals were around at the time of giant Bison as well as the
        > Mammoths. I have heard lectures stating that the Eastern Herd of
        > Bison was less than the estimated 1.3 Billion of the Western herd. It
        > was somewhere under the 1 Billion amount, but still that was a lot of
        > Bison. I also remember reading accounts of the last small group of
        > Eastern Bison being shot in Pennsylvania by farmers angry with fencing
        > being broken up by the remaining animals, some time early in the
        > 1800's. They surrounded the small herd and shot at it wholesale. One
        > hopes they at least used the meat.
        >
        > My personal belief is that the mound groups were not constructed for
        > such utilitarian uses as confinement of animals as this group has been
        > discussing.
        >
        > Below is an example of an earthwork recently found by the lidar image
        > process that shows a Peregrine Falcon effigy mound that is near
        > Cassville WI. It measures 270 wingtip to tip. There are many others
        > here at Effigy Mounds National Monument in the 60 to 100 foot range in
        > width. along with bears and other animals just a few miles away. They
        > are like giant animal crackers made of tons of earth carried up these
        > bluffs from the Mississippi bottoms. Some have layers of different
        > colored soil depending on what the river brought at times when annual
        > or even less regular maintenance was done centuries ago. Some mounds
        > like the ghost eagle mound along the Wisconsin River bottoms were so
        > large that were not discovered until aerial photography as they were
        > thousands of feet long. They did not look like anything until people
        > had a way to view them from above. These have been confirmed by
        > Satellite images.
        >
        > An archeologist of the Ho Chunk Nation in Wisconsin who is himself a
        > Seneca, says these massive earthworks were like a pop up book on the
        > ground, representing things in the night sky. In this case of this
        > Peregrine, maybe the day sky. The older residents of the area have
        > told Audubon Society members that when they were young, before radio
        > and TV, they watched the falcons chase off eagles from their cliffside
        > nests, and dispatch the much larger raptors with great speed and
        > precision. For them it was entertainment.
        >
        > The population of migrating birds is growing after years of help with
        > nesting problems due to DDT used along the river and in the adjacent
        > farm fields which caused the eggs to become too thin to hatch
        > naturally. Eggs were collected, chicks fed by hand until they were
        > old enough to survive predators and sometimes even returned to nests
        > or nest boxes that were placed in protected areas as the numbers did
        > not allow raccoon and possum to endanger the young birds. After many
        > years they now are breeding on their own, their DNA is mapped and
        > closely followed. Some city skyscrapers and even Coal fired chimneys
        > on power plants were used in this save the falcons project. Search
        > for the Raptor Resource Center run by Bob Anderson and you will learn
        > more if you wish.
        >
        > I think these ancient images like the one below were in honor of the
        > creators work. Carry a basket of earth up the steepest hill in your
        > area and you gain an appreciation of the ancient peoples work. In the
        > 70's I worked with young students carrying bags of lime to outline
        > some of the mounds in Effigy Mounds National Monument. A bag of ag
        > lime on an eagle scout back pack, was a daunting task for the
        > youngsters, and those of us who tried to keep up with them.
        > Excavations are no longer allowed in mounds but when this was done one
        > could actually see tamping marks made by ancient baskets in the clay
        > of the layers of the soin in the mounds.
        >
        > The work was done by Dr. R. Clark Mallam of Luther College in
        > Northeast Iowa. The white outlines were the only way to see the
        > mounds from the air and see the relationship they had to each other.
        > One in particular group of mounds always reminded me of the big dipper
        > constellation. When he was dying from cancer he wistfully said these
        > images were the interface of the world here on earth and whatever the
        > world we call heaven, or their native version of this place.
        >
        > Think about when food production and gathering was the main job of
        > people who lived in this place 1200 or more years ago. They would
        > spend much Summer hunting time to do this work as a group. There is
        > plenty of evidence that the mounds were cleared and sometimes burned
        > before new layers were added. They were not built like dam with speed
        > in completion as the task like modern methods of hillside erosion pond
        > dams or earthworks. This was ritual work and some say in the
        > archeological community, that a population increase made a surplus of
        > people and Summer food from the river available to create these
        > effigies.
        >
        > We don't know the whole story and it is very hard to put our mind sets
        > at the task of interpreting those who lived here a thousand or more
        > years ago. I was an art educator and just appreciate the beauty and
        > magnitude of the projects. In my town we bulldozed some of the
        > mounds back in the 1950's for flood control levees, as we built
        > without the knowledge of how high the water can get. The mounds were
        > built above the flood plain. I was told they could be seen by
        > travelers on the ancient canoe trails that showed that there was fish,
        > game, and good water, in the area for the traveller. The Ho-Chunk
        > Archeologist said the mounds in some cases were like the road signs
        > along the Interstate Highway, informing the traveller of food, fuel,
        > and lodging. Think on that awhile and it makes sense.
        >
        > A few years ago the town put in a homage to the mound builders to
        > honor what was removed, and eagle scouts carried the earth to make the
        > mound permanent. It was covered in Prairie Grasses, and I had the
        > honor and privilege to help them design an image similar to the one
        > below. A smoke ceremony was done to bless the valley by a native
        > descendant of those who bear the town and counties name. He said
        > wisely,"that anything that honors those who have walked here before us
        > is a good thing"
        >
        > Ted Sojka
        > Native Earthworks Preservation / Iowa
        >
        >
        >
        > PS Enjoy your discussion and think big,
        >
        > The discussion below might be of interest to some of you, or not, and
        > some might want to add to the discussion in this group who have
        > knowledge about this area. I know the tribes in Iowa had access to
        > Bison Scapulas that were used to make hoes for tilling soil. They
        > traded these to the natives East of them in Wisconsin for awhile, as
        > the bison had disappeared in that area. I have been to Bison shaped
        > mounds in the middle of Wisconsin, and know they must have been there
        > at some time. Scientific investigation can now tell us where old
        > bison bones originated, as well as human bones, by what is contained
        > in them. A marvelous use of technology to peer back into the world of
        > those who were here before us.
        >
        >
        >
        > >
        > > I don't think anyone knows for sure when the first buffalo came into
        > > Ky or the last one left. For sure, they were in my area at one time
        > > as bones (skulls) have been found in shelters in the Red River Gorge
        > > area - but they are scarce. An archeolgist friend thinks they moved
        > > east into the area around 1500 and probably survived into the 1700s,
        > > as you have stated, Charles. No rock carvings that I know of depict
        > > anything connected to buffalo. One site, Little Mud Creek pictograph
        > > site, in Johnson County, near Paintsville, was noted by Funkhauser
        > > and Webb (1932, 206), who received information from W.E. Connelly
        > > and Mitchell Hall: "high sandstone cliffs were decorated with
        > > figures of turtles, rattlesnakes, bears, panthers, buffaloes, and
        > > human figures ---." Rock Art of Kentucky: Coy, Fuller, Meadows, and
        > > Swauger, 1997. Al C.
        > >
        > > ----- Original Message -----
        > > From: Charles Mattox
        > > To: thor-thehuntersohiorock@yahoogroups.com
        > > Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 6:50 AM
        > > Subject: Re: [thor-thehuntersohiorock] Fw: Buffalo Ball
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > William, all,
        > > Well, I could be way, way off base here, but I'm not sure Buffalo
        > > were in Ky. during woodland and Adena/Hopewell period.
        > > I know for a fact that I have never, not once ever, found a single
        > > buffalo bone in any Fort Ancient trash pit.
        > > I've never found a buffalo bone in any Adena or Hopewell campsite or
        > > village either, although I am more experienced with Fort Ancient.
        > > Fellows, I just don't think buffalo were a major factor in Kentucky
        > > until around 1675-1725.
        > > Black bear---yes.
        > > White tail deer and elk-yep.
        > > But no buffalo.
        > > Not a single one, as far as Fort Ancient.
        > > Does anyone have any archaeological documents stating buffalo found
        > > in Kentucky Hopewell?
        > > I sure haven't seen it.
        > > I'm just saying!!!!!!
        > >
        > > --- On Fri, 6/11/10, william smith wmsmithrock1@... wrote:
        > >
        > > From: william smith wmsmithrock1@...
        > > Subject: [thor-thehuntersohiorock] Fw: Buffalo Ball
        > > To: thor-thehuntersohiorock@yahoogroups.com
        > > Date: Friday, June 11, 2010, 11:24 AM
        > >
        > >
        > > Hi All
        > > Myron and I are Getting our Dung together.
        > > William
        > >
        > >
        > > ----- Forwarded Message ----
        > > From: william smith <wmsmithrock1@ yahoo.com>
        > > To: Myron Paine myronpaine@frozentr ail.org>
        > > Sent: Fri, June 11, 2010 11:16:48 AM
        > > Subject: Re: Buffalo Ball
        > >
        > > Myron
        > > Being raised on a farm and understanding the importance of
        > > regulating live stock by butchering in the fall after the grass goes
        > > stable may have been the practice used by the hopewell in days gone
        > > by.
        > > With millions of Bison running wild and a good resource for food
        > > it makes a lot of sence to capture a few and save until needed or
        > > cold weather would help preserve the meat.
        > > One 1000 lb Bison would generate about 400 lbs of good meat in
        > > todays market. We would have the kids pick up the dried dung to heat
        > > the round house during the winter.
        > > If we built a low wall octagon structure with door openings for
        > > our round house we could coral the Bison in the octagon area and the
        > > kids would not have to go far to gather dung wood for our fire to
        > > cook the meat.
        > > We could have a national holiday called Dung Day and invite all
        > > that have a Hopewell Road address to come together to gather dung
        > > and chew the fat.
        > > If we had unwanted guest traveling on our road we could stampede
        > > the herd to drive them out.
        > > The Native Americans have said that Kentucky was land that was
        > > sacred for hunting game and treated this land different than Ohio in
        > > that not many large settlements were found their. Could the Native
        > > people have been smart enough to let the Bison go back south of the
        > > Ohio River in safety in order to get their shit together for another
        > > year?
        > > I think we have a title for another book (DUNG ON THE HOPEWELL ROAD)
        > > William
        > >
        > > From: Myron Paine myronpaine@frozentr ail.org>
        > > To: wmsmithrock1@ yahoo.com
        > > Cc: Rick Ozmon ozman@rtccom. net>
        > > Sent: Fri, June 11, 2010 9:21:21 AM
        > > Subject: Buffalo Ball
        > >
        > > William,
        > >
        > > You made an interesting hypothesis last evening about buffalo.
        > >
        > > Imagine that we were in the Newark Ohio area about 4,00 years ago.
        > > In the fall we watch our meat supply walk away. It will be a looong
        > > cold winter.
        > >
        > > Gee, it would be nice to catch and hold some of them buffalo so we
        > > could pick them off as we need them during the winter. Well, how
        > > about a large pen, say a circle with water inside,
        > >
        > > Ya, but there would not be enough food for them all winter. Hey, we
        > > see them eat dried grass if they have to. We would have to haul in
        > > grass.
        > >
        > > Ya, but I am not going to carry an arm load of dried grass into a
        > > buffalo herd. I want my kids to grow up with a daddy. OK so lets
        > > build a walk way on top of the pen walla. Then the wife and kids
        > > could carry ib hay and throw it down.
        > >
        > > Well, maybe, but how can we kill one or two without starting a
        > > stampede?
        > >
        > > Ah, maybe we could somehow lure one or two out of the pen and run
        > > them between low walls to a killing pen. Hmm, they do avoid us if
        > > possible, so if the whole tribe stood on low embankments maybe we
        > > could make that happen. We might wand to use a different shape.
        > > One where the guys could stand high enough and near enough to use
        > > their alts-alts.
        > >
        > > Well, maybe, but I don't think it would work.
        > >
        > > ____________ _________ _________ -
        > >
        > > Then about 500 years later our descendents might sit around a
        > > campfire and talk.
        > >
        > > Ya, know that big round pen has been used for ages, it is pretty
        > > messy. The wives and kids do not want to carry dried grass up and
        > > over all winter. Maybe there might be a better way,
        > >
        > > I have been thinking,
        > >
        > > Oh, no--that/s bad!
        > >
        > > If we made another pen with a different shape, say an octagon we
        > > could have more entries and make the entry ways different. Then we
        > > could use less wood if we made a short wall just inside each entry
        > > way.
        > >
        > > Won't work.
        > >
        > > We could stack the dried grass all the way around the pen. The wife
        > > and the kids could just carry it to the nearest entry way and throw
        > > it over the short wall. Just a little climbing, maybe.
        > >
        > > Hm the wife may like that. If we made the walls straight the atl-
        > > alt guys could line up and maybe bring down the nearest buffao with
        > > out use having to get the whole tribe involved. But those events
        > > were sorta fun. The young men could show off.
        > > ____________ ___
        > > About 100 years later, the great-grand kids might say:
        > >
        > > Ya know, that Octagon shape works well. We are even penning a few
        > > of the buffalo so we can get easy meat even in summer, but it
        > > bothers me that we lose so many buffalo calves because they get
        > > trampled in the milling herd. If we could keep them safe, they may
        > > become like pets, like the dogs. Then herding them might be easier.
        > >
        > > Ya, but, How do you get them out of the milling herd? Well , you
        > > lure the pregnent buffalo into another holding pen and keep her
        > > there until she calves.
        > >
        > > Ya but there would be lots of pregnant buffalo and the kids are
        > > tired of carrying dirt. We could make one large area with a
        > > circular wall to use a minimum of dirt might work. Maybe.
        > > ____________ _________ ________
        > >
        > > So, William, I have stuck a few "sticky notes" onto you "Buffalo
        > > ball" I am passing the ball back to you.
        > >
        > > RUN!
        > >
        > > Myron Paine, Ph. D., Author of Frozen Trail to Merica,
        > > "... to the [west], in the darkness they walk and walk, all of them."
        > > Pub Galde Press, Quality books make a differnce. www.galdepress. com
        > > Algonquin is Old Norse; http://www.frozentr ail.org/reviews/
        > > newsarticle
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > No virus found in this incoming message.
        > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
        > > Version: 9.0.830 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2960 - Release Date:
        > > 06/24/10 02:35:00
        > >
        > >
        >
      • ZHstar@aol.com
        re: Jim Scherz comment I made about the triangle. JIm:- I thought it looked like the triangle I saw on the side of Hidden Mt. where the Decalogue Stone is
        Message 3 of 4 , Jun 29, 2010
        • 0 Attachment
           
          re: Jim Scherz' comment I made about the triangle. 
           
          JIm:-   I thought it looked like the triangle I saw on the side of Hidden Mt. where the Decalogue Stone  is located.   The Decalogue stone has been translated as a form of paleo-Hebrew.  Cyrus Gordon thought it was the ancient Samaritan script. A great deal of work has been done on translating the Decalogue Stone, boobks articles,etc. It was shown briefly on the History Channel  documentary last week  "Who Really Discovered America."  Scott Wolter was there examining the stone. Few people know that on the top of Hidden Mt. there is an astronomical petroglyph with a solar eclipse marked on the stone between two constellations that was analyzed by Dr. Lou Winkler an archaeastronomer.  he died a few years ago.  he was able to date the time of the solar eclipse.  We co-authored an article on this.  There are more paleo-Hebrew inscriptions on  the summit  and there are has rock constructions around the perimeter with a clear view of the Rio Puerco.    The now dry Rio Puerco flows about 100 feet from Hidden Mt. into the Rio Grande, Need i say more?  this area may well have been an ancient mining center. New Mexico and the area around the Rio Grande is known for semi precious stones. 
          There is a paleo- Hebrew inscription somewhere on Mt. Taylor which was told to me by Prof. Frank Hibben, Univ. of ALB when he was alive.  Mt. Taylor is known as the Turquoise Mt.  there may have been ancient mining of turquoise up there  .I tried to find that inscription on Mt. Taylor but did not get cooperation from the land owners who own part of the mountain.    It is not Cherokee script. 
          REgards, Zena 
           
          In a message dated 6/29/2010 11:17:23 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, beldingenglish@... writes:
           

          Excellent post, Ted;  thank you for taking time to put it together and submit to the groups.  I ran a print to take with me next trip down the Mississippi south of here.
          Three hours were spent Saturday night at Perkins reading posts with one of our members. Jim Scherz  commented on the Buffalo0Bison post and a number of letters, files, photos that many here have sent.  Even the manager of the restaurant started looking over our shoulders at my screen.
           
          Jim ordered a couple of copies of last week's History Channel documentary (Who Really Discovered America) including a complimentary copy for me to become another addition to our Ancient Waterways loaner box.  It won't be delivered here for a few weeks, then I am wondering if perhaps Pam, Simon Brighton, Martin Carriere and other members living outside the United States who cannot access cable TV/History Channel programs might want to borrow the DVD. 
           
          We also spent a hour reading the posts/files on the epigraphic material Chris P. did last January on the Copper Country petroglyhs.  Scherz was intrigued at the comment Zena made about the triangles; a Search on the topography around Hidden Mt, NM and the Decologue Stone near Los Lunas (Cherokee-Hebrew inscription? ).  a question rose,  Zena, as to whether you have done any translating at that site.
           
          It is a real pleasure for me when I get visitors to my home or meet with folks at conferences and informal meetings to talk about some of the materials this membership submits.  Hopefully opportunities will increase for all of you in your localities the more the public seeks alternative answers, and as these types of investigations continue to become mainstream.  The current media presentations, books, and even serious work members of many Internet groups are putting into Posts and Files are also undoubtedly changing minds,  rewriting history, and hopefully ways we live and engage with each other globally as old erroneous historical assumptions are exposed and investigators wade deeper into the once-obscure 'pre-history' .
           
          Scott Wolter sent a reply last night that 'they' are working on a third History Channel film that he thinks will be the best one yet.  Which sounds to me as though the documentary is still en process.
           
          Susan

          --- In ancient_waterways_ society@yahoogro ups.com, Ted Sojka <tedsojka@...> wrote:
          >
          > Dear Group Discussion on Buffalo in Ohio.
          >
          > Here is a note about ancient Ice Age animals from this area.
          >
          > A set of Moose Horns of the mega-fauna type were found in the mud on
          > and island eroding in the Mississippi River by a fisherman. These
          > animals were around at the time of giant Bison as well as the
          > Mammoths. I have heard lectures stating that the Eastern Herd of
          > Bison was less than the estimated 1.3 Billion of the Western herd. It
          > was somewhere under the 1 Billion amount, but still that was a lot of
          > Bison. I also remember reading accounts of the last small group of
          > Eastern Bison being shot in Pennsylvania by farmers angry with fencing
          > being broken up by the remaining animals, some time early in the
          > 1800's. They surrounded the small herd and s hot at it wholesale. One
          > hopes they at least used the meat.
          >
          > My personal belief is that the mound groups were not constructed for
          > such utilitarian uses as confinement of animals as this group has been
          > discussing.
          >
          > Below is an example of an earthwork recently found by the lidar image
          > process that shows a Peregrine Falcon effigy mound that is near
          > Cassville WI. It measures 270 wingtip to tip. There are many others
          > here at Effigy Mounds National Monument in the 60 to 100 foot range in
          > width. along with bears and other animals just a few miles away. They
          > are like giant animal crackers made of tons of earth carried up these
          > bluffs from the Mississippi bottoms. Some have layers of different
          > colored soil depending on what the river brought at times when annual
          > or even less regular maintenance was done centuries ago. Some mounds
          > like the ghost e agle mound along the Wisconsin River bottoms were so
          > large that were not discovered until aerial photography as they were
          > thousands of feet long. They did not look like anything until people
          > had a way to view them from above. These have been confirmed by
          > Satellite images.
          >
          > An archeologist of the Ho Chunk Nation in Wisconsin who is himself a
          > Seneca, says these massive earthworks were like a pop up book on the
          > ground, representing things in the night sky. In this case of this
          > Peregrine, maybe the day sky. The older residents of the area have
          > told Audubon Society members that when they were young, before radio
          > and TV, they watched the falcons chase off eagles from their cliffside
          > nests, and dispatch the much larger raptors with great speed and
          > precision. For them it was entertainment.
          >
          > The population of migrating birds is growing after years of help with
          > nesting problems due to DDT used along the river and in the adjacent
          > farm fields which caused the eggs to become too thin to hatch
          > naturally. Eggs were collected, chicks fed by hand until they were
          > old enough to survive predators and sometimes even returned to nests
          > or nest boxes that were placed in protected areas as the numbers did
          > not allow raccoon and possum to endanger the young birds. After many
          > years they now are breeding on their own, their DNA is mapped and
          > closely followed. Some city skyscrapers and even Coal fired chimneys
          > on power plants were used in this save the falcons project. Search
          > for the Raptor Resource Center run by Bob Anderson and you will learn
          > more if you wish.
          >
          > I think these ancient images like the one below were in honor of the
          > creators work. Carry a basket of earth up the steepest hill in your
          > area and you gain an appreciation of the ancient peoples work. In the
          > 70's I worked with young students carrying bags of lime to outline
          > some of the mounds in Effigy Mounds National Monument. A bag of ag
          > lime on an eagle scout back pack, was a daunting task for the
          > youngsters, and those of us who tried to keep up with them.
          > Excavations are no longer allowed in mounds but when this was done one
          > could actually see tamping marks made by ancient baskets in the clay
          > of the layers of the soin in the mounds.
          >
          > The work was done by Dr. R. Clark Mallam of Luther College in
          > Northeast Iowa. The white outlines were the only way to see the
          > mounds from the air and see the relationship they had to each other.
          > One in particular group of mounds always reminded me of the big dipper
          > constellation. When he was dying from cancer he wistfully said these
          > images were the interface of the world here on earth and whatever the
          > world we call heaven, or their native version of this place.
          >
          > Think about when food production and gathering was the main job of
          > people who lived in this place 1200 or more years ago. They would
          > spend much Summer hunting time to do this work as a group. There is
          > plenty of evidence that the mounds were cleared and sometimes burned
          > before new layers were added. They were not built like dam with speed
          > in completion as the task like modern methods of hillside erosion pond
          > dams or earthworks. This was ritual work and some say in the
          > archeological community, that a population increase made a surplus of
          > people and Summer food from the river available to create these
          > effigies.
          >
          > We don't know the whole story and it is very hard to put our mind sets
          > at the task of interpreting those who lived here a thousand or more
          > years ago. I was an art educator and just appreciate the beauty and
          > magnitude of the projects. In my town we bulldozed some of the
          > mounds back in the 1950's for flood control levees, as we built
          > without the knowledge of how high the water can get. The mounds were
          > built above the flood plain. I was told they could be seen by
          > travelers on the ancient canoe trails that showed that there was fish,
          > game, and good water, in the area for the traveller. The Ho-Chunk
          > Archeologist said the mounds in some cases were like the road signs
          > along the Interstate Highway, informing the traveller of food, fuel,
          > and lodging. Think on that awhile and it makes sense.
          >
          > A few years ago the town put in a homage to the mound builders to
          > honor what was removed, and eagle scouts carried the earth to make the
          > mound permanent. It was covered in Prairie Grasses, and I had the
          > honor a nd privilege to help them design an image similar to the one
          > below. A smoke ceremony was done to bless the valley by a native
          > descendant of those who bear the town and counties name. He said
          > wisely,"that anything that honors those who have walked here before us
          > is a good thing"
          >
          > Ted Sojka
          > Native Earthworks Preservation / Iowa
          >
          >
          >
          > PS Enjoy your discussion and think big,
          >
          > The discussion below might be of interest to some of you, or not, and
          > some might want to add to the discussion in this group who have
          > knowledge about this area. I know the tribes in Iowa had access to
          > Bison Scapulas that were used to make hoes for tilling soil. They
          > traded these to the natives East of them in Wisconsin for awhile, as
          > the bison had disappeared in that area. I have been to Bison shaped
          > mounds in the middle of Wisconsin, and know they mu st have been there
          > at some time. Scientific investigation can now tell us where old
          > bison bones originated, as well as human bones, by what is contained
          > in them. A marvelous use of technology to peer back into the world of
          > those who were here before us.
          >
          >
          >
          > >
          > > I don't think anyone knows for sure when the first buffalo came into
          > > Ky or the last one left. For sure, they were in my area at one time
          > > as bones (skulls) have been found in shelters in the Red River Gorge
          > > area - but they are scarce. An archeolgist friend thinks they moved
          > > east into the area around 1500 and probably survived into the 1700s,
          > > as you have stated, Charles. No rock carvings that I know of depict
          > > anything connected to buffalo. One site, Little Mud Creek pictograph
          > > site, in Johnson County, near Paintsville, was noted by Funkhauser < BR>> > and Webb (1932, 206), who received information from W.E. Connelly
          > > and Mitchell Hall: "high sandstone cliffs were decorated with
          > > figures of turtles, rattlesnakes, bears, panthers, buffaloes, and
          > > human figures ---." Rock Art of Kentucky: Coy, Fuller, Meadows, and
          > > Swauger, 1997. Al C.
          > >
          > > ----- Original Message -----
          > > From: Charles Mattox
          > > To: thor-thehuntersohio rock@yahoogroups .com
          > > Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 6:50 AM
          > > Subject: Re: [thor-thehuntersohi orock] Fw: Buffalo Ball
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > William, all,
          > > Well, I could be way, way off base here, but I'm not sure Buffalo
          > > were in Ky. during woodland and Adena/Hopewell period.
          > > I know for a fact that I have never, not once ever, found a single
          > > buffalo bone in any Fort Ancient trash pit.
          > ; > I've never found a buffalo bone in any Adena or Hopewell campsite or
          > > village either, although I am more experienced with Fort Ancient.
          > > Fellows, I just don't think buffalo were a major factor in Kentucky
          > > until around 1675-1725.
          > > Black bear---yes.
          > > White tail deer and elk-yep.
          > > But no buffalo.
          > > Not a single one, as far as Fort Ancient.
          > > Does anyone have any archaeological documents stating buffalo found
          > > in Kentucky Hopewell?
          > > I sure haven't seen it.
          > > I'm just saying!!!!!!
          > >
          > > --- On Fri, 6/11/10, william smith wmsmithrock1@ ... wrote:
          > >
          > > From: william smith wmsmithrock1@ ...
          > > Subject: [thor-thehuntersohi orock] Fw: Buffalo Ball
          > > To: thor-thehuntersohio rock@yahoogroups .com
          > > Date: Friday, June 11, 2010, 11:24 AM
          > >
          > & gt;
          > > Hi All
          > > Myron and I are Getting our Dung together.
          > > William
          > >
          > >
          > > ----- Forwarded Message ----
          > > From: william smith <wmsmithrock1@ yahoo.com>
          > > To: Myron Paine myronpaine@frozentr ail.org>
          > > Sent: Fri, June 11, 2010 11:16:48 AM
          > > Subject: Re: Buffalo Ball
          > >
          > > Myron
          > > Being raised on a farm and understanding the importance of
          > > regulating live stock by butchering in the fall after the grass goes
          > > stable may have been the practice used by the hopewell in days gone
          > > by.
          > > With millions of Bison running wild and a good resource for food
          > > it makes a lot of sence to capture a few and save until needed or
          > > cold weather would help preserve the meat.
          > > One 1000 lb Bison would generate about 400 lbs of good meat in
          > > todays market . We would have the kids pick up the dried dung to heat
          > > the round house during the winter.
          > > If we built a low wall octagon structure with door openings for
          > > our round house we could coral the Bison in the octagon area and the
          > > kids would not have to go far to gather dung wood for our fire to
          > > cook the meat.
          > > We could have a national holiday called Dung Day and invite all
          > > that have a Hopewell Road address to come together to gather dung
          > > and chew the fat.
          > > If we had unwanted guest traveling on our road we could stampede
          > > the herd to drive them out.
          > > The Native Americans have said that Kentucky was land that was
          > > sacred for hunting game and treated this land different than Ohio in
          > > that not many large settlements were found their. Could the Native
          > > people have been smart enough to let the Bison go ba ck south of the
          > > Ohio River in safety in order to get their shit together for another
          > > year?
          > > I think we have a title for another book (DUNG ON THE HOPEWELL ROAD)
          > > William
          > >
          > > From: Myron Paine myronpaine@frozentr ail.org>
          > > To: wmsmithrock1@ yahoo.com
          > > Cc: Rick Ozmon ozman@rtccom. net>
          > > Sent: Fri, June 11, 2010 9:21:21 AM
          > > Subject: Buffalo Ball
          > >
          > > William,
          > >
          > > You made an interesting hypothesis last evening about buffalo.
          > >
          > > Imagine that we were in the Newark Ohio area about 4,00 years ago.
          > > In the fall we watch our meat supply walk away. It will be a looong
          > > cold winter.
          > >
          > > Gee, it would be nice to catch and hold some of them buffalo so we
          > > could pick them off as we need them during the winter. Well, how
          > > abou t a large pen, say a circle with water inside,
          > >
          > > Ya, but there would not be enough food for them all winter. Hey, we
          > > see them eat dried grass if they have to. We would have to haul in
          > > grass.
          > >
          > > Ya, but I am not going to carry an arm load of dried grass into a
          > > buffalo herd. I want my kids to grow up with a daddy. OK so lets
          > > build a walk way on top of the pen walla. Then the wife and kids
          > > could carry ib hay and throw it down.
          > >
          > > Well, maybe, but how can we kill one or two without starting a
          > > stampede?
          > >
          > > Ah, maybe we could somehow lure one or two out of the pen and run
          > > them between low walls to a killing pen. Hmm, they do avoid us if
          > > possible, so if the whole tribe stood on low embankments maybe we
          > > could make that happen. We might wand to use a different shape. < BR>> > One where the guys could stand high enough and near enough to use
          > > their alts-alts.
          > >
          > > Well, maybe, but I don't think it would work.
          > >
          > > ____________ _________ _________ -
          > >
          > > Then about 500 years later our descendents might sit around a
          > > campfire and talk.
          > >
          > > Ya, know that big round pen has been used for ages, it is pretty
          > > messy. The wives and kids do not want to carry dried grass up and
          > > over all winter. Maybe there might be a better way,
          > >
          > > I have been thinking,
          > >
          > > Oh, no--that/s bad!
          > >
          > > If we made another pen with a different shape, say an octagon we
          > > could have more entries and make the entry ways different. Then we
          > > could use less wood if we made a short wall just inside each entry
          > > way.
          > >
          > & gt; Won't work.
          > >
          > > We could stack the dried grass all the way around the pen. The wife
          > > and the kids could just carry it to the nearest entry way and throw
          > > it over the short wall. Just a little climbing, maybe.
          > >
          > > Hm the wife may like that. If we made the walls straight the atl-
          > > alt guys could line up and maybe bring down the nearest buffao with
          > > out use having to get the whole tribe involved. But those events
          > > were sorta fun. The young men could show off.
          > > ____________ ___
          > > About 100 years later, the great-grand kids might say:
          > >
          > > Ya know, that Octagon shape works well. We are even penning a few
          > > of the buffalo so we can get easy meat even in summer, but it
          > > bothers me that we lose so many buffalo calves because they get
          > > trampled in the milling herd. If we could keep them safe, they may
          > > become like pets, like the dogs. Then herding them might be easier.
          > >
          > > Ya, but, How do you get them out of the milling herd? Well , you
          > > lure the pregnent buffalo into another holding pen and keep her
          > > there until she calves.
          > >
          > > Ya but there would be lots of pregnant buffalo and the kids are
          > > tired of carrying dirt. We could make one large area with a
          > > circular wall to use a minimum of dirt might work. Maybe.
          > > ____________ _________ ________
          > >
          > > So, William, I have stuck a few "sticky notes" onto you "Buffalo
          > > ball" I am passing the ball back to you.
          > >
          > > RUN!
          > >
          > > Myron Paine, Ph. D., Author of Frozen Trail to Merica,
          > > "... to the [west], in the darkness they walk and walk, all of them."
          > > Pub Galde Press, Quality books make a differnce. www.ga ldepress. com
          > > Algonquin is Old Norse; http://www.frozentr ail.org/reviews/
          > > newsarticle
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > No virus found in this incoming message.
          > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
          > > Version: 9.0.830 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2960 - Release Date:
          > > 06/24/10 02:35:00
          > >
          > >
          >

        • Susan
          Very interesting reply, Zena. I is my hope member Cal Traylor (Trayloroo) of Las Cruces, NM is still following posts and might be able to add
          Message 4 of 4 , Jul 1, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            Very interesting reply, Zena. I is my hope member Cal Traylor
            (Trayloroo) of Las Cruces, NM is still following posts and might be able
            to add information....an area not too far from his home.

            I've been traveling since Sunday; Jim Scherz was up in my part of the
            state only a few few hours last week. It would be a pity if he cannot
            find a way to access a computer to read your excellent letter. Maybe
            others are interested in this subject and can add input. Zena, do you
            know the dating of the solar eclipse, the astononomical petroglyph and
            inscriptions on Mr. Taylor (Tourquioise Mt.)?

            Susan

            --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, ZHstar@... wrote:
            >
            >
            > re: Jim Scherz' comment I made about the triangle.
            >
            > JIm:- I thought it looked like the triangle I saw on the side of
            Hidden
            > Mt. where the Decalogue Stone is located. The Decalogue stone has been
            > translated as a form of paleo-Hebrew. Cyrus Gordon thought it was the
            > ancient Samaritan script. A great deal of work has been done on
            translating the
            > Decalogue Stone, boobks articles,etc. It was shown briefly on the
            History
            > Channel documentary last week "Who Really Discovered America." Scott
            > Wolter was there examining the stone. Few people know that on the top
            of Hidden
            > Mt. there is an astronomical petroglyph with a solar eclipse marked on
            the
            > stone between two constellations that was analyzed by Dr. Lou Winkler
            an
            > archaeastronomer. he died a few years ago. he was able to date the
            time of
            > the solar eclipse. We co-authored an article on this. There are more
            > paleo-Hebrew inscriptions on the summit and there are has rock
            constructions
            > around the perimeter with a clear view of the Rio Puerco. The now dry
            > Rio Puerco flows about 100 feet from Hidden Mt. into the Rio Grande,
            Need i
            > say more? this area may well have been an ancient mining center. New
            > Mexico and the area around the Rio Grande is known for semi precious
            stones.
            > There is a paleo- Hebrew inscription somewhere on Mt. Taylor which was
            told
            > to me by Prof. Frank Hibben, Univ. of ALB when he was alive. Mt.
            Taylor
            > is known as the Turquoise Mt. there may have been ancient mining of
            > turquoise up there .I tried to find that inscription on Mt. Taylor but
            did not
            > get cooperation from the land owners who own part of the mountain. It
            is
            > not Cherokee script.
            > REgards, Zena
            >
            >
            > In a message dated 6/29/2010 11:17:23 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
            > beldingenglish@... writes:
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > Excellent post, Ted; thank you for taking time to put it together and
            > submit to the groups. I ran a print to take with me next trip down the
            > Mississippi south of here.
            > Three hours were spent Saturday night at Perkins reading posts with
            one of
            > our members. Jim Scherz commented on the Buffalo0Bison post and a
            number
            > of letters, files, photos that many here have sent. Even the manager
            of
            > the restaurant started looking over our shoulders at my screen.
            >
            > Jim ordered a couple of copies of last week's History Channel
            documentary
            > (Who Really Discovered America) including a complimentary copy for me
            to
            > become another addition to our Ancient Waterways loaner box. It won't
            be
            > delivered here for a few weeks, then I am wondering if perhaps Pam,
            Simon
            > Brighton, Martin Carriere and other members living outside the United
            States
            > who cannot access cable TV/History Channel programs might want to
            borrow the
            > DVD.
            >
            > We also spent a hour reading the posts/files on the epigraphic
            material
            > Chris P. did last January on the Copper Country petroglyhs. Scherz was
            > intrigued at the comment Zena made about the triangles; a Search on
            the
            > topography around Hidden Mt, NM and the Decologue Stone near Los Lunas
            > (Cherokee-Hebrew inscription?De a question rose, Zena, as to whether
            you have done
            > any translating at that site.
            >
            > It is a real pleasure for me when I get visitors to my home or meet
            with
            > folks at conferences and informal meetings to talk about some of the
            > materials this membership submits. Hopefully opportunities will
            increase for all
            > of you in your localities the more the public seeks alternative
            answers,
            > and as these types of investigations continue to become mainstream.
            The
            > current media presentations, books, and even serious work members of
            many
            > Internet groups are putting into Posts and Files are also undoubtedly
            changing
            > minds, rewriting history, and hopefully ways we live and engage with
            each
            > other globally as old erroneous historical assumptions are exposed and
            > investigators wade deeper into the once-obscure 'pre-history'w
            >
            > Scott Wolter sent a reply last night that 'they' are working on a
            third
            > History Channel film that he thinks will be the best one yet. Which
            sounds
            > to me as though the documentary is still en process.
            >
            > Susan
            >
            > --- In ancient_waterways_--- In ancient_w--- In
            > ancient_waterwaytedsojka@ wrote:
            > >
            > > Dear Group Discussion on Buffalo in Ohio.
            > >
            > > Here is a note about ancient Ice Age animals from this area.
            > >
            > > A set of Moose Horns of the mega-fauna type were found in the mud on
            > > and island eroding in the Mississippi River by a fisherman. These
            > > animals were around at the time of giant Bison as well as the
            > > Mammoths. I have heard lectures stating that the Eastern Herd of
            > > Bison was less than the estimated 1.3 Billion of the Western herd.
            It
            > > was somewhere under the 1 Billion amount, but still that was a lot
            of
            > > Bison. I also remember reading accounts of the last small group of
            > > Eastern Bison being shot in Pennsylvania by farmers angry with
            fencing
            > > being broken up by the remaining animals, some time early in the
            > > 1800's. They surrounded the small herd and s hot at it wholesale.
            One
            > > hopes they at least used the meat.
            > >
            > > My personal belief is that the mound groups were not constructed for
            > > such utilitarian uses as confinement of animals as this group has
            been
            > > discussing.
            > >
            > > Below is an example of an earthwork recently found by the lidar
            image
            > > process that shows a Peregrine Falcon effigy mound that is near
            > > Cassville WI. It measures 270 wingtip to tip. There are many others
            > > here at Effigy Mounds National Monument in the 60 to 100 foot range
            in
            > > width. along with bears and other animals just a few miles away.
            They
            > > are like giant animal crackers made of tons of earth carried up
            these
            > > bluffs from the Mississippi bottoms. Some have layers of different
            > > colored soil depending on what the river brought at times when
            annual
            > > or even less regular maintenance was done centuries ago. Some mounds
            > > like the ghost e agle mound along the Wisconsin River bottoms were
            so
            > > large that were not discovered until aerial photography as they were
            > > thousands of feet long. They did not look like anything until people
            > > had a way to view them from above. These have been confirmed by
            > > Satellite images.
            > >
            > > An archeologist of the Ho Chunk Nation in Wisconsin who is himself a
            > > Seneca, says these massive earthworks were like a pop up book on the
            > > ground, representing things in the night sky. In this case of this
            > > Peregrine, maybe the day sky. The older residents of the area have
            > > told Audubon Society members that when they were young, before radio
            > > and TV, they watched the falcons chase off eagles from their
            cliffside
            > > nests, and dispatch the much larger raptors with great speed and
            > > precision. For them it was entertainment.
            > >
            > > The population of migrating birds is growing after years of help
            with
            > > nesting problems due to DDT used along the river and in the adjacent
            > > farm fields which caused the eggs to become too thin to hatch
            > > naturally. Eggs were collected, chicks fed by hand until they were
            > > old enough to survive predators and sometimes even returned to nests
            > > or nest boxes that were placed in protected areas as the numbers did
            > > not allow raccoon and possum to endanger the young birds. After many
            > > years they now are breeding on their own, their DNA is mapped and
            > > closely followed. Some city skyscrapers and even Coal fired chimneys
            > > on power plants were used in this save the falcons project. Search
            > > for the Raptor Resource Center run by Bob Anderson and you will
            learn
            > > more if you wish.
            > >
            > > I think these ancient images like the one below were in honor of the
            > > creators work. Carry a basket of earth up the steepest hill in your
            > > area and you gain an appreciation of the ancient peoples work. In
            the
            > > 70's I worked with young students carrying bags of lime to outline
            > > some of the mounds in Effigy Mounds National Monument. A bag of ag
            > > lime on an eagle scout back pack, was a daunting task for the
            > > youngsters, and those of us who tried to keep up with them.
            > > Excavations are no longer allowed in mounds but when this was done
            one
            > > could actually see tamping marks made by ancient baskets in the clay
            > > of the layers of the soin in the mounds.
            > >
            > > The work was done by Dr. R. Clark Mallam of Luther College in
            > > Northeast Iowa. The white outlines were the only way to see the
            > > mounds from the air and see the relationship they had to each other.
            > > One in particular group of mounds always reminded me of the big
            dipper
            > > constellation. When he was dying from cancer he wistfully said these
            > > images were the interface of the world here on earth and whatever
            the
            > > world we call heaven, or their native version of this place.
            > >
            > > Think about when food production and gathering was the main job of
            > > people who lived in this place 1200 or more years ago. They would
            > > spend much Summer hunting time to do this work as a group. There is
            > > plenty of evidence that the mounds were cleared and sometimes burned
            > > before new layers were added. They were not built like dam with
            speed
            > > in completion as the task like modern methods of hillside erosion
            pond
            > > dams or earthworks. This was ritual work and some say in the
            > > archeological community, that a population increase made a surplus
            of
            > > people and Summer food from the river available to create these
            > > effigies.
            > >
            > > We don't know the whole story and it is very hard to put our mind
            sets
            > > at the task of interpreting those who lived here a thousand or more
            > > years ago. I was an art educator and just appreciate the beauty and
            > > magnitude of the projects. In my town we bulldozed some of the
            > > mounds back in the 1950's for flood control levees, as we built
            > > without the knowledge of how high the water can get. The mounds were
            > > built above the flood plain. I was told they could be seen by
            > > travelers on the ancient canoe trails that showed that there was
            fish,
            > > game, and good water, in the area for the traveller. The Ho-Chunk
            > > Archeologist said the mounds in some cases were like the road signs
            > > along the Interstate Highway, informing the traveller of food, fuel,
            > > and lodging. Think on that awhile and it makes sense.
            > >
            > > A few years ago the town put in a homage to the mound builders to
            > > honor what was removed, and eagle scouts carried the earth to make
            the
            > > mound permanent. It was covered in Prairie Grasses, and I had the
            > > honor a nd privilege to help them design an image similar to the one
            > > below. A smoke ceremony was done to bless the valley by a native
            > > descendant of those who bear the town and counties name. He said
            > > wisely,"that anything that honors those who have walked here before
            us
            > > is a good thing"
            > >
            > > Ted Sojka
            > > Native Earthworks Preservation / Iowa
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > PS Enjoy your discussion and think big,
            > >
            > > The discussion below might be of interest to some of you, or not,
            and
            > > some might want to add to the discussion in this group who have
            > > knowledge about this area. I know the tribes in Iowa had access to
            > > Bison Scapulas that were used to make hoes for tilling soil. They
            > > traded these to the natives East of them in Wisconsin for awhile, as
            > > the bison had disappeared in that area. I have been to Bison shaped
            > > mounds in the middle of Wisconsin, and know they mu st have been
            there
            > > at some time. Scientific investigation can now tell us where old
            > > bison bones originated, as well as human bones, by what is contained
            > > in them. A marvelous use of technology to peer back into the world
            of
            > > those who were here before us.
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > >
            > > > I don't think anyone knows for sure when the first buffalo came
            into
            > > > Ky or the last one left. For sure, they were in my area at one
            time
            > > > as bones (skulls) have been found in shelters in the Red River
            Gorge
            > > > area - but they are scarce. An archeolgist friend thinks they
            moved
            > > > east into the area around 1500 and probably survived into the
            1700s,
            > > > as you have stated, Charles. No rock carvings that I know of
            depict
            > > > anything connected to buffalo. One site, Little Mud Creek
            pictograph
            > > > site, in Johnson County, near Paintsville, was noted by Funkhauser
            <
            > BR>> > and Webb (1932, 206), who received information from W.E.
            Connelly
            > > > and Mitchell Hall: "high sandstone cliffs were decorated with
            > > > figures of turtles, rattlesnakes, bears, panthers, buffaloes, and
            > > > human figures ---." Rock Art of Kentucky: Coy, Fuller, Meadows,
            and
            > > > Swauger, 1997. Al C.
            > > >
            > > > ----- Original Message -----
            > > > From: Charles Mattox
            > > > To: thor-thehuntersohio To: thor-th To:
            > > > Sent: Friday, June 25, 2010 6:50 AM
            > > > Subject: Re: [thor-thehuntersohi Subject: Re: [thor-thehunt
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > William, all,
            > > > Well, I could be way, way off base here, but I'm not sure Buffalo
            > > > were in Ky. during woodland and Adena/Hopewell period.
            > > > I know for a fact that I have never, not once ever, found a single
            > > > buffalo bone in any Fort Ancient trash pit.
            > > ; > I've never found a buffalo bone in any Adena or Hopewell
            campsite or
            >
            > > > village either, although I am more experienced with Fort Ancient.
            > > > Fellows, I just don't think buffalo were a major factor in
            Kentucky
            > > > until around 1675-1725.
            > > > Black bear---yes.
            > > > White tail deer and elk-yep.
            > > > But no buffalo.
            > > > Not a single one, as far as Fort Ancient.
            > > > Does anyone have any archaeological documents stating buffalo
            found
            > > > in Kentucky Hopewell?
            > > > I sure haven't seen it.
            > > > I'm just saying!!!!!!
            > > >
            > > > --- On Fri, 6/11/10, william smith wmsmithrock1@ --- On Fr
            > > >
            > > > From: william smith wmsmithrock1@ Fr
            > > > Subject: [thor-thehuntersohi Subject: [thor-the
            > > > To: thor-thehuntersohio To: thor-th To:
            > > > Date: Friday, June 11, 2010, 11:24 AM
            > > >
            > > & gt;
            > > > Hi All
            > > > Myron and I are Getting our Dung together.
            > > > William
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > ----- Forwarded Message ----
            > > > From: william smith <wmsmithrock1@ yahoo.com>
            > > > To: Myron Paine myronpaine@frozentr ail.org>
            > > > Sent: Fri, June 11, 2010 11:16:48 AM
            > > > Subject: Re: Buffalo Ball
            > > >
            > > > Myron
            > > > Being raised on a farm and understanding the importance of
            > > > regulating live stock by butchering in the fall after the grass
            goes
            > > > stable may have been the practice used by the hopewell in days
            gone
            > > > by.
            > > > With millions of Bison running wild and a good resource for food
            > > > it makes a lot of sence to capture a few and save until needed or
            > > > cold weather would help preserve the meat.
            > > > One 1000 lb Bison would generate about 400 lbs of good meat in
            > > > todays market . We would have the kids pick up the dried dung to
            heat
            > > > the round house during the winter.
            > > > If we built a low wall octagon structure with door openings for
            > > > our round house we could coral the Bison in the octagon area and
            the
            > > > kids would not have to go far to gather dung wood for our fire to
            > > > cook the meat.
            > > > We could have a national holiday called Dung Day and invite all
            > > > that have a Hopewell Road address to come together to gather dung
            > > > and chew the fat.
            > > > If we had unwanted guest traveling on our road we could stampede
            > > > the herd to drive them out.
            > > > The Native Americans have said that Kentucky was land that was
            > > > sacred for hunting game and treated this land different than Ohio
            in
            > > > that not many large settlements were found their. Could the Native
            > > > people have been smart enough to let the Bison go ba ck south of
            the
            > > > Ohio River in safety in order to get their shit together for
            another
            > > > year?
            > > > I think we have a title for another book (DUNG ON THE HOPEWELL
            ROAD)
            > > > William
            > > >
            > > > From: Myron Paine myronpaine@frozentr ail.org>
            > > > To: wmsmithrock1@ yahoo.com
            > > > Cc: Rick Ozmon ozman@rtccom. net>
            > > > Sent: Fri, June 11, 2010 9:21:21 AM
            > > > Subject: Buffalo Ball
            > > >
            > > > William,
            > > >
            > > > You made an interesting hypothesis last evening about buffalo.
            > > >
            > > > Imagine that we were in the Newark Ohio area about 4,00 years ago.
            > > > In the fall we watch our meat supply walk away. It will be a
            looong
            > > > cold winter.
            > > >
            > > > Gee, it would be nice to catch and hold some of them buffalo so we
            > > > could pick them off as we need them during the winter. Well, how
            > > > abou t a large pen, say a circle with water inside,
            > > >
            > > > Ya, but there would not be enough food for them all winter. Hey,
            we
            > > > see them eat dried grass if they have to. We would have to haul in
            > > > grass.
            > > >
            > > > Ya, but I am not going to carry an arm load of dried grass into a
            > > > buffalo herd. I want my kids to grow up with a daddy. OK so lets
            > > > build a walk way on top of the pen walla. Then the wife and kids
            > > > could carry ib hay and throw it down.
            > > >
            > > > Well, maybe, but how can we kill one or two without starting a
            > > > stampede?
            > > >
            > > > Ah, maybe we could somehow lure one or two out of the pen and run
            > > > them between low walls to a killing pen. Hmm, they do avoid us if
            > > > possible, so if the whole tribe stood on low embankments maybe we
            > > > could make that happen. We might wand to use a different shape. <
            > BR>> > One where the guys could stand high enough and near enough to
            use
            > > > their alts-alts.
            > > >
            > > > Well, maybe, but I don't think it would work.
            > > >
            > > > ____________ _________ _________ -
            > > >
            > > > Then about 500 years later our descendents might sit around a
            > > > campfire and talk.
            > > >
            > > > Ya, know that big round pen has been used for ages, it is pretty
            > > > messy. The wives and kids do not want to carry dried grass up and
            > > > over all winter. Maybe there might be a better way,
            > > >
            > > > I have been thinking,
            > > >
            > > > Oh, no--that/s bad!
            > > >
            > > > If we made another pen with a different shape, say an octagon we
            > > > could have more entries and make the entry ways different. Then we
            > > > could use less wood if we made a short wall just inside each entry
            > > > way.
            > > >
            > > & gt; Won't work.
            > > >
            > > > We could stack the dried grass all the way around the pen. The
            wife
            > > > and the kids could just carry it to the nearest entry way and
            throw
            > > > it over the short wall. Just a little climbing, maybe.
            > > >
            > > > Hm the wife may like that. If we made the walls straight the atl-
            > > > alt guys could line up and maybe bring down the nearest buffao
            with
            > > > out use having to get the whole tribe involved. But those events
            > > > were sorta fun. The young men could show off.
            > > > ____________ ___
            > > > About 100 years later, the great-grand kids might say:
            > > >
            > > > Ya know, that Octagon shape works well. We are even penning a few
            > > > of the buffalo so we can get easy meat even in summer, but it
            > > > bothers me that we lose so many buffalo calves because they get
            > > > trampled in the milling herd. If we could keep them safe, they may
            > > > become like pets, like the dogs. Then herding them might be
            easier.
            > > >
            > > > Ya, but, How do you get them out of the milling herd? Well , you
            > > > lure the pregnent buffalo into another holding pen and keep her
            > > > there until she calves.
            > > >
            > > > Ya but there would be lots of pregnant buffalo and the kids are
            > > > tired of carrying dirt. We could make one large area with a
            > > > circular wall to use a minimum of dirt might work. Maybe.
            > > > ____________ _________ ________
            > > >
            > > > So, William, I have stuck a few "sticky notes" onto you "Buffalo
            > > > ball" I am passing the ball back to you.
            > > >
            > > > RUN!
            > > >
            > > > Myron Paine, Ph. D., Author of Frozen Trail to Merica,
            > > > "... to the [west], in the darkness they walk and walk, all of
            them."
            > > > Pub Galde Press, Quality books make a differnce. www.ga ldepress.
            com
            > > > Algonquin is Old Norse; http://www.frozentr ail.org/reviews/
            > > > newsarticle
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > No virus found in this incoming message.
            > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
            > > > Version: 9.0.830 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/2960 - Release Date:
            > > > 06/24/10 02:35:00
            > > >
            > > >
            > >
            >
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