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Re: CBSNA-LIDAR-closeup-falcon-effigy

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  • Rick O
    Ummm, yes, Zena, I know a bit about LIDAR, having worked directly in the laser field since 1981, both in civilian and in military programs that included this
    Message 1 of 8 , Jun 15, 2010
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      Ummm, yes, Zena, I know a bit about LIDAR, having worked directly in the laser field since 1981, both in civilian and in military programs that included this very application of overall laser technology. And you're really close, Raymond.

      Laser Imaging Distance Acquisition Ranging or, alternatively Laser Imaging Distance And Ranging, or Laser Imaging Distance Altitude and Ranging. In the very early days of the development, around '68 or '69, there was even "Laser Impulse Imaging Distance And Ranging. (LIIDAR)

      Initially developed for battlefield surveillance intended to detect mines, boobytraps, shallow graves/lost remains, battle loss aircraft crash sights, IED's, etc., it is incredibly valuable in detection and preservation of the effigy mounds.

      How it works: A laser beam is scanned across an area from some moving or rotating platform, most typically, an airplane or satellite. The scanning pattern is typically a "raster" type, but other patterns exist and work about as well. The beam scans side to side from the platform as the platform moves forward, thus forming the "raster". The beam in pulsed at extremely high rates, some in the hundreds of thousands of pulses per second, with each pulse having a duration only a few billionths of a second (nanosecond pulses). Each pulse becomes the source of energy for a detector that is measuring the time of flight of that pulse. The trajectory or the light path (where it was in the raster scan) and the time of flight, when calculated together,  allow resolution in the single millimeters over wide areas. The much shorter wavelength of the laser light allows much finer resolution than does the radio wave-based scanning radar, but the other principles are virtually identical, including most of the math in the calculation. Some wavelengths of light used in lidar work better for penetrating light foilage, others allow submillimeter ranging resolution in arid conditions (which is becoming a point of interest with regard to Nazca). The trade-offs with regard to which wavelength to use includes concerns for eyesafety of both humans and wildlife. At some of the pulse energies required, visible wavelengths could cause instant and permanent damage to the retina. So most LIDAR systems are built around "eyesafe" wavelengths. To the best of my knowledge, no one ever tested those wavelengths against "sight hunters" like raptors, or to "sight evaders" like doves and songbirds, rodents, reptiles, etc., so I remain skeptical regarding the "actual" level of safety to non-human retinas. Anyway, way off core topic...but kind of related to the effigy, I guess.

      Oz


      --- In ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com, Raymond Snow <megalodon843@...> wrote:
      >
      > Lidar stands for "Light Detection and Ranging", whitch is a form of radar that can detect objects in the smallest amount of light, thus making the object or objects visible....kind of like a eletron telescope.
      >  
      > As to your question.....yes I see the same thing you saw in the photograph. To me it looks like either an eagle, falcon or it could be the outline of an airplain.
      >
      >
      > Raymond Snow
      >
      > --- On Mon, 6/14/10, ZHstar@... ZHstar@... wrote:
      >
      >
      > From: ZHstar@... ZHstar@...
      > Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] CBSNA-LIDAR-closeup-falcon-effigy
      > To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Monday, June 14, 2010, 12:46 AM
      >
      >
      >
      > TEd-  do you see  on  the far  right half a triangle within a triangle?  If you see what I see, there is one on the flank of  Hidden Mt. in New Mexico.
      >  
      >
      > In a message dated 6/13/2010 8:40:51 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, tedsojka@... writes:
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > CBSNA-LIDAR-closeup-falcon-effigy   270 feet long from wingtip to tip.   
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > This radar image is along the Mississippi  River near Cassville WI.  
      > I don't know much about Lidar Radar imaging.  Anybody know anything about the process
      >
      >  
      >
    • Ted Sojka
      Ted, I know a bit about LIDAR, having worked directly in the laser field since 1981, both in civilian and in military programs that included this very
      Message 2 of 8 , Jun 16, 2010
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        Ted,
        I know a bit about LIDAR, having worked directly in the laser field since 1981, both in civilian and in military programs that included this very application of overall laser technology. 

        Laser Imaging Distance Acquisition Ranging or, alternatively Laser Imaging Distance And Ranging, or Laser Imaging Distance Altitude and Ranging. In the very early days of the development, around '68 or '69, there was even "Laser Impulse Imaging Distance And Ranging. (LIIDAR)

        Initially developed for battlefield surveillance intended to detect mines, boobytraps, shallow graves/lost remains, battle loss aircraft crash sights, IED's, etc., it is incredibly valuable in detection and preservation of the effigy mounds. 

        How it works: A laser beam is scanned across an area from some moving or rotating platform, most typically, an airplane or satellite. The scanning pattern is typically a "raster" type, but other patterns exist and work about as well. The beam scans side to side from the platform as the platform moves forward, thus forming the "raster". The beam in pulsed at extremely high rates, some in the hundreds of thousands of pulses per second, with each pulse having a duration only a few billionths of a second (nanosecond pulses). Each pulse becomes the source of energy for a detector that is measuring the time of flight of that pulse. The trajectory or the light path (where it was in the raster scan) and the time of flight, when calculated together,  allow resolution in the single millimeters over wide areas. The much shorter wavelength of the laser light allows much finer resolution than does the radio wave-based scanning radar, but the other principles are virtually identical, including most of the math in the calculation. Some wavelengths of light used in lidar work better for penetrating light foilage, others allow submillimeter ranging resolution in arid conditions (which is becoming a point of interest with regard to Nazca). The trade-offs with regard to which wavelength to use includes concerns for eyesafety of both humans and wildlife. At some of the pulse energies required, visible wavelengths could cause instant and permanent damage to the retina. So most LIDAR systems are built around "eyesafe" wavelengths. To the best of my knowledge, no one ever tested those wavelengths against "sight hunters" like raptors, or to "sight evaders" like doves and songbirds, rodents, reptiles, etc., so I remain skeptical regarding the "actual" level of safety to non-human retinas. Anyway, way off core topic...but kind of related to the effigy, I guess.

        Oz






        Lidar Image of raptor mound or falcon mound, near Cassville WI.  


        Dear Rick Ozman

        Wow, you answered the question about how this image was made.  

        The Nature Conservancy of the Mississippi was the source of the image with the mound. It was sent to a fellow who runs the raptor resource center after a survey was done in this area along the bluffs .

        The Audubon fellow says before TV, the falcon was the entertainment on the bluffs along the river.  Older folks said they watched them take on eagles, red tails, and anything that flew into their territory.  Also that there were Prairie tree colonies that did the same thing and allowed the birds to have a foothold in the past on the Prairies of Minnesota.  When the the trees went, so did the falcons.   In Minneapolis some of the birds which were nearly wiped out by DDT had eggs too thin to be sat on.  The eggs were hatched by volunteers who fed them and put them back with their parents to be fed when strong enough.  

        This took years to get a population back and the birds were nesting on tall building ledges and were entertainment for the top floor restaurants in the cities.  Bob Anderson who worked on the project has the DNA of each of the nesting pairs that reproduced in this way.   I forget how many generations of Peregrine Falcons they have produced and are now nesting back in the bluffs along the river without too much help.  Efforts are made to keep raccoons and possum from getting to the eggs in the nests, and they even used electric fencing in one park that has a nesting ledge that was picked by the birds that put the chicks in danger. 

        Initially the Power Companies along the river let the nest boxes be placed on chimney nest boxes near cliffs.  It provided a safe nest near cliffs, and eventually when the population grew,  nesting pairs returned in the Spring, to set up on the cliffs along the Mississippi.  The population of these birds is increasing and with this help and the elimination of DDT in the environment, are having a come back.  

        The birds were an inspiration for the moundbuilders as they were such great hunters and flyers.  They can outfly an eagle and reach speeds of 260 miles an hour in a controlled dive.  Nest workers wear hard hats and face masks.   Birds are banded and weighed by researchers on ropes who lower themselves to the nest sites.  I have seen film of this work and it is a challenge.  There are many web cams of the nest sites on line and this time of year the chicklets are growing day by day.  


        ted


        On Jun 15, 2010, at 10:56 AM, Rick O wrote:

      • Chris Patenaude
        Hello Zena :-D I see the figure you are referring to. See attached overlay of the scene. One must be very careful not to let the literate brain, which is
        Message 3 of 8 , Jun 19, 2010
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        Hello Zena :-D
        I see the figure you are referring to. See attached overlay of the scene.
        One must be very careful not to let the "literate" brain, which is supremely excellent in recognizing even partial Symbols It Knows, to insist to the rest of the mind's rationale that something is there when it is only partly suggested.
         
        I've outlined the subject Falcon Mound in blue and labeled that.
        The suspect topography suggesting recognizable symbology is noted in orange.
         
        The main line of the 'outer triangle' which Zena has noted, is a natural gully on the right.
        It begins in softer sediment on the bench-top and is then wide and softer, creating a bold line. As the waterflow reaches the edge of the plateau, it would seem that hardrock is encountered and the 'wash' becomes a crisp, narrow rivulet dropping over the edge into the dark stream below. 
         
        If you look honestly, there is no other mark on the land to suggest the larger triangle is there in any way... the 'literate' recognition patterning of the brain only wishes it strongly to be there, in order to make a familiar pattern make sense.
         
        The "inner triangle" is only there in two arms, which are also subset gullies to the natural water-flow pattern, heading to the little rivulet going over the brink. It is the normal 'herring bone' scoring that all land creates in the presence of running water. The same kinds of marks are what shows there used to be liquid water on Mars at one time.
         
        There are no intentional or man-enhanced 'triangular' marks on the small flat there. Just the Falcon.
        -c
         

        --- On Mon, 6/14/10, Raymond Snow <megalodon843@...> wrote:

        From: Raymond Snow <megalodon843@...>
        Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] CBSNA-LIDAR-closeup-falcon-effigy
        To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Monday, June 14, 2010, 6:34 PM

        Lidar stands for "Light Detection and Ranging", whitch is a form of radar that can detect objects in the smallest amount of light, thus making the object or objects visible....kind of like a eletron telescope.
         
        As to your question.....yes I see the same thing you saw in the photograph. To me it looks like either an eagle, falcon or it could be the outline of an airplain.

        Raymond Snow


        --- On Mon, 6/14/10, ZHstar@... <ZHstar@...> wrote:

        From: ZHstar@... <ZHstar@...>
        Subject: Re: [ancient_waterways_society] CBSNA-LIDAR-closeup-falcon-effigy
        To: ancient_waterways_society@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Monday, June 14, 2010, 12:46 AM

        TEd-  do you see  on  the far  right half a triangle within a triangle?  If you see what I see, there is one on the flank of  Hidden Mt. in New Mexico.
         
        In a message dated 6/13/2010 8:40:51 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, tedsojka@... writes:

        CBSNA-LIDAR-closeup-falcon-effigy   270 feet long from wingtip to tip.   


        This radar image is along the Mississippi  River near Cassville WI.  
        I don't know much about Lidar Radar imaging.  Anybody know anything about the process


         




      • Ted Sojka
        This is an image that should have gone with the reply that I wrote about mounds along the Mississippi River CBSNA-LIDAR-closeup-falcon-effigy
        Message 4 of 8 , Jun 25, 2010
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          This is an image that should have gone with the reply that I wrote about mounds along the Mississippi River



          CBSNA-LIDAR-closeup-falcon-effigy

           


        • Ted Sojka
          Hello All Parden me for sending the unfinished e mail prior to this one in response to Rick Osmon s e mail. USGA will tell you they are short of staff to get
          Message 5 of 8 , May 13 9:00 AM
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            Hello All 

            Parden me for sending the unfinished e mail prior to this one in response to Rick Osmon's e mail.

            USGA will tell you they are short of staff to get requests filled for this information. I have included below a Lidar image of a bird mound on a bluff above the Mississippi River near the town of Cassville WI.

            One can see the siltation on the left, lower,corner of the image.  The ridges at the bottom of the road and rail tracks are under water.  
            There are lots more to come from this particular survey, done for many reason besides archeology.  

            Patience I request from all, though I am as impatient as any of you.

            I am happy that bits an pieces get out once in awhile, as it makes me feel that lots will be found before it is gone.

            Ted Sojka
            Native Earthworks Preservation / Iowa
            AWS member
            On May 13, 2012, at 10:02 AM, Rick Osmon wrote:

            The raw data is available, but to the best of my knowledge has not been compiled or released as a study. Two forms / sources of data that could and would indicate ancient changes are in widespread use: Laser topography (LIDAR) and thermal spectroscopy. Both of these data sets have been accumulated by NASA and USGS. Prying the data from their greedy little hands is not easy.

            __




            CBSNA-LIDAR-closeup-falcon-effigy

             


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